Blueberry
Blueberry
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1551130#Comment_1551130
I actually believe that the totem spawns in Lerys or Midwhich are slightly too good. Don't get me wrong, I don't want totem spawns like Crotus Penn totem spawns, but in general the totem spawns have been improved a lot and are much harder to find, so at average I'd argue Undying will become very good. On maps like Hawkins, Lerys or Midwhich the perk will be particulaly strong.
I suppose I could agree with those map totem spawns being too good if hex totems in general were good. However, most hex perks are honestly quite bad. So I kind of see very good totem spawns as being a bandaid for bad perk design atm.
The only hex perk that I see as being good enough to warrant being a hex is DH. Not saying the other perks shouldn't be hexes, but simply that the other hex perks should be improved to match their high risk involved.
Other than DH most hex perks are a high risk/low-mediocre reward, when they're supposed to be high risk/high reward.
Other than most those indoors map spawns what maps are you considering good totem spawns? I think most other maps are god awful spawns where you literally just run into the totems without even looking for them.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1551049#Comment_1551049
Meh, even if it is the first perk to be cleansed, that still wastes quite a bit of time of the survivors unless they are lucky. Of course, Hex perks always rely a bit on luck, but I feel like we could be seeing Undying quite a bit in the future. Not sure about the perk that blocks all pallets within a 16 meter radius of a hit survivor, since they can easily sprint far away, but the other two perks seem like they could have quite a lot of potential.
If all the maps were Midwhich or Lery's I'd see more merit to hex perks. However, the vast majority of the maps have god awful totem spawns where you'll be losing them in the first minute. I wouldn't call a few seconds to cleanse the totem much of a benefit for an entire perk slot. Seeing as the luck is basically determined by your random map, the odds are not in your favor.
I do still agree that we will see the perk a lot. However that's simply because the majority of the player base is at low ranks where they don't know totem spawns or even what's going on for that matter. Every perk looks strong at that level. At high ranks we won't be seeing it though.
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None of those perks are even remotely close to meta.
Hex Undying completely relies on it not being the first hex cleansed, of which it would now do completely nothing. You need consistency in perks against good survivors.
Neither of the new hex perks are worthy of being hexes imo.
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They simply aren't going to rework his power this completely after months of working on it. That just isn't going to happen or being realistic.
You'd be better off thinking of tweaks to make his current power work as is.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1550158#Comment_1550158
I think the issue with the problem is taking the word counter play far too literally. Perks themselves are suppose to be tactical advantages that in ideal setting have very good reliability and activate single match. I think the threading goal is they're thinking every perk needs drawback thus adding more counter-play when in reality it hinders the perk from ever activating in the first place and thus never gets used in any context whatsoever. Add-on have same problem, they're also meant to be straight improvements of power ideally scaling with rarity. Perks and add-on inherently are not suppose to have drawbacks. They're suppose to advantages or disadvantages that both sides play around in a given match. I feel killer powers are suppose to be like that as well and this new killer power feels like its boggled by too many restrictions so much so that it loses any skill expression and becomes like this niche tool that might get you a hit once or twice in entire match vs good players. Killers need perks that are very reliable and powers that can work in many contexts due to the 4vs1 nature of the game. Counter-play should be organic, not explicit and your not suppose to be able to hard counter killer perks or killer powers where doing X makes Y impossible. So i guess it is rank 10 balance to in some regards but I'd like to think there is more in-depth explanation to why these killer perks are so situational and why this killer power is so heavily dysfunctional.
I agree with your point.
Instead of letting players find counter play to the different perks/addons etc they build counter play into everything because they assume the survivors are so bad that they won't be able to figure it out themselves (rank 10's basically).
A lot of hand holding essentially.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1549557#Comment_1549557
This exactly how I feel about the perk. The loss of tokens hurts any creativity in the perk and never ever mind the part where we spent half the game activating it on top of it being possible to disable and using half or more of perks slot to use it.
In general all killer perks suffer from same problem they got too many drawback.
The first perk only works for 30 seconds after kicking a gen. like why and to add insult injury, 80 second cooldown. The 3rd perk has cooldown... on a hex: totem.
I mean new killer is even more hilarious. We got a cooldown to use his power. we got a token system to limit how many dashes we can do, so cooldown on top of cooldown. On top of that, When we hit the survivor, we have to swipe his blade(Cooldown), than go into fatique(Cooldown) and the power itself has poor movement controls and bad lunge that you can easily sidestep. Its like dev said read all complaints about cooldowns and went like, "We'll show you cooldown and drawbacks". Well I think killers got the memo. Don't play new killers. Don't use new perks. I think if the killer power and killer perks had less drawback, maybe we could actually use these perks and the killer itself but who knows, wishful thinking.
The survivor already has decent perks to bail them out in almost any sticky situation. so if they get a good perk, Its more flavor and variety than competitiveness.
Sums up my thoughts for the most part as well.
"In general all killer perks suffer from same problem they got too many drawback."
This is the main point here. Between killers and killer perks these days they just stack piles and piles of negatives, drawbacks, counters and downsides on top of a mediocre effect.
For one example, I'd say at least 90% of the killer perks that have cooldowns could completely have them removed and none of them would be overpowered.
We could even apply this sentiment to a lot of killer addons as well, where they put downsides that are so harsh it ends up making it worse than the benefit it gives.
The general level of balance they seem to aim for is around rank 10 which leaves them all being extremely underwhelming when taken into a high rank game with actually good survivors that are trying to win.
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DS base kit? Definitely not.
The issue isn't survivors needing DS because of camping/tunneling. The issue is as you had mentioned, that tunneling/camping IS the most efficient way to win. We don't fix this by making DS base kit, we fix this by making the "fun" killer play style more viable than the camping/tunneling play style.
The vast majority of perks on both sides are way undertuned which is part of the issue, but I do agree that all the second chance perks are way overtuned and in turn crowd out all the other options.
In summary:
Make the not tunneling/camping play style more viable, nerf second chance perks, and finally buff all the other perks that are way undertuned.
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@JesterClown said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1549557#Comment_1549557
I definitely think stacks should carry over though I think its fair that its a hex. Perks with strong effects should stay hexes. If what your saying is that undying should basically guarantee you keep your hex effect even if its cleansed then what even is the point of cleansing. If you mean to force survivors to cleanse every dull totem, then yeah, but id think that would be alittle too strong.
"If what your saying is that undying should basically guarantee you keep your hex effect even if its cleansed then what even is the point of cleansing."
Because cleansing all the totems gets rid of his hex perk. He also gave up an entire other perk slot for that.
"If you mean to force survivors to cleanse every dull totem, then yeah, but id think that would be alittle too strong."
Would it? Giving up a perk slot to make them cleanse all the totems seems pretty fair to me. I mean that's essentially what NOED is right now. Not that I like NOED, but me not liking NOED has nothing to do with the mechanic of you needing to cleanse the totems.
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@Koukdw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1549527#Comment_1549527
They aren't overtuned the rest is just trash. I wish we could have a sabotage build that could work at least 75% of the time. but it never work right now it's in the meme build category, there's too many hooks on the map. Survivor perks in general are way undertuned and situational. That's why people run second chance perk. Because there's a guarantee it will get used and it will be useful.
While I do think at least 75% of the survivor perks are way undertuned, so are 75% of the killer perks as well. Also, even though the majority of their perks are undertuned doesn't mean those second chance perks aren't overtuned, they are.
People don't take the second chance perks just because most the other perks are bad, they also take them because they are too strong.
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@JesterClown said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1549477#Comment_1549477
undying has huge potential, though im now seeing why people think the other hex isnt that good, but I guess those are the conditions of blocking pallets
If Undying wasn't a hex perk and was basically you giving up an additional perk slot to make survivors have to cleanse all the totems to get rid of your other hex perk, then that would be a decent trade off to consider I think. That would also seem pretty well balanced to me honestly.
However, it is a hex, which is where we run into the issue. You could literally have Undying cleansed first and now it did absolutely nothing. At least if it was say a Ruin instead you got a tiny bit of value out of it before it was gone, but this perk you got nothing.
That is way too big of a downside. Not to mention the side negative of also losing any stacks which limits which other hex perks it has synergy with in the first place.
Now if they added the caveat that its effect applies to itself as well, now THEN we could have some potential.
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@Weederick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1549415#Comment_1549415
Care to explain? Unless 3-4 Survivors are injured, Botany is better. And healing speed only matters on good survivors and if you face good ones, then second chance perks are way stronger.
I never said it was better than second chance perks. Second chance perks are way overtuned and overshadow everything as they have for years.
Botany is only better with 2 or less. This perk also includes dead and hooked, not just injured. The likelyhood of have 3 or more injured, hooked, or dead is quite high. It's kind of an anti slug perk as well.
If you're running anything outside of the full second chance meta, it's on par.
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The killer perks look pretty weak to me. If those hex perks weren't hex's then sure they look decent, however for being hexes they are quite underwhelming. Most games you are gonna lose them in the first minute and their effects are not strong enough for 1 minute of use. Honestly if they want to keep them hex's they shouldn't even have cooldowns on them. The cooldowns would only make sense if they weren't hexes.
Dragons Grip is the only one that looks just okay.
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I think people are vastly underestimating how good this perk is.
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It was a pretty unnecessary change, the perk was only decent before. This hurts it a lot.
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He needs a lot of improvements from my first impression. Looks like a lot of restrictions and limitations for a mediocre pay off.
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I really hope that no slow down is intended, it would be a great QoL change.
I still want her puke to damage generators as well so she doesn't have to always puke and hit everything.
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They said all the killers would be getting there own music. It's probably just not on the PTB but will make it to live.
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@Elena said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1548176#Comment_1548176
A cool name for a werewolf could be 'The feral'
Yeah that would be cool as well
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Even if it was a werewolf they would never call it The Werewolf as that's too copy paste from the classic story. It would more likely be The Beast or along those lines.
That said, as much as I want it to be a "werewolf" I highly doubt it. They made it seem too obvious and it seems like they wanted to mislead us in that direction.
More likely a Dr Jekyll/Hyde or an alchemist/rat creature as it was referenced in the story how he was bitten by an infected rat (a wererat if you will).
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Where have people said they hate console players? I've never seen any of this.
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I think that could lead him back towards the un fun situation we had with FF before. We can't just flat out increase how dangerous his FF hits themselves are because of how little counter play there is.
How do we do this? Add Oblivious to the DW effect, cut his fatigue time down by 1 second, get rid of his fatigue sound queue, and finally remove the power reduction on basic M1 attacks.
This adds mind game potential to his FF where you could turn it into lethality without having no counter play. It would also make survivors a little more scared when Mending which would make them get to a safe place rather than just doing it immediately which is what we have now.
The survivor wouldn't be sure if he was going to spread his FF more or if he was faking it for a double back around. Things like this on killers is good design because it raises the skill ceiling and alters interactions between killer and survivor where it's less binary every single time.
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If anything Stridor needs buffs, it used to be a lot better. Now its only purpose to be worth running is on Spirit.
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@ABannedCat said:
I don't like playing against cheaters (mapwide voice-communications that is not taken into account by the developers when balancing the game).
+1
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Looks to me like no new map because of the graphical update coming. Which, if the graphical update is coming with the next chapter, I will gladly take that over a new map. That update is gonna be huge for the game.
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It's just the other side being salty from losing. That's it.
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Zero fun going against swf.
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No killer in the game is too strong atm.
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Obviously the alchemist, but the question is turning into what. Looks like a werewolf ish killer to me...please be a werewolf.
Possible Dr Jeckel/Mr Hyde thing going on as well.
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I'm expecting Clown or Pig.
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Best: Midwhich
Worst: Corn maps, followed by Ormond.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1534027#Comment_1534027
(Eye roll)
People on these forums really need to learn the difference between a nerf and a “conditional” change.
Knockout got BUFFED.
To keep it BALANCED, it was made conditional to activate on basic attack only. So strategise accordingly when it’s best to M1 or M2.
“dUh I CaN’t JuSt SwItCh OfF aNd NoT tHiNk AbOuT iT” doesn’t mean nerf
"Conditional" change that hurt the perk more than it helped, IE a nerf.
People understand the difference between a nerf and a conditional change, you are just misunderstanding which one it was.
Especially to go as far as to make fun of people in a mocking manner over it, not very kind.
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Cool, but unfortunately a bad perk got made worse.
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Some of them can take quite a while to complete but that's not because of the survivor quality at red rank. The reason it takes forever is because of all the DC's from all the survivors there who have huge ego's and entitlement.
Realized there was an adept I hadn't grabbed yet so I went to get it tonight and 6 games in a row the achievement was failed because at least 1 person DC'd even though I "won". Of course almost every after chat they mocked and laughed because they were able to intentionally make me fail the achievement. Being able to intentionally DC with the purpose of preventing someone from getting an achieve shouldn't be a thing.
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Map design is the biggest issue in the game right now.
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There really isn't a counter. The game isn't balanced around that.
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At least 50% of the perks on both sides are near meme status, with another at least 10% at mediocrity.
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@Checkmate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1530920#Comment_1530920
Complaining about map design is like complaining about entire game. The god windows were least of the killers problems at top-level and realistically changed nothing about those maps. The big kicker for map design is the fact that majority of the tilesets do not require you to inquire risk to win. Most of the filler pallets have are either completely safe because of no-wall blockers to play any mindgames or because one side of the pallet is so large that even if a survivor were to slide over, you still can't captialize on it. The problem becomes exponentially worse when it starts to take into account particular tilesets, for example, with the shack, you don't even need to vault the window a single time to win, you can just around twice in a circle and put down pallet, the same goes for jungle gyms than you have particular tilesets, for example haddonfield and Badham a strong loop that some players refer to the House of pain where you have that ultra-safe pallet at bottom and windows around the house. The killer at high-level becomes an AI bot that just follows around survivors at completely safe and zero mindgame loops on all of the default maps. The only counter-play to these loops is to break the pallet but by the time you break these safe pallets, all generator will be done against a good team.
I understand sentiment of being unable to take part on the chase as killer, this is main reason why people play Spirit or Nurse and few other killers to by pass bad loop design but this solution is not generic. Pallets are not indefinite. If the game was slower, survivors would need to use windows more and manage their pallet resources a lot more as they would otherwise run out of pallets unlike right now. As safe as these loops are, Survivors still attempt to greed loops but since every killer without an instant down has to hit survivors twice, there is a lot less room for capitalization on said errors and the ability to capitalize on survivors who stay in unsafe positions gets covered up by health states.
What you're saying about the loops and tiles is true, that I'm not disagreeing with. Almost everything in your post is accurate and I agree with. However, "Complaining about map design is like complaining about entire game." is just not a true statement. The game itself is not boiled down to the maps.
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I think you had the right understanding of the issue comparing Freddy and Demo until:
"Back in the day when survivors had access to strong and forgiving perks, add-ons, and pallets they could afford to waste time. 1 or 2 survivors could hard-carry their team with their looping skills but now things are quite different."
This just not accurate. Survivors can still waste a ton of time and win. It is still very forgiving on survivor side. You can make many, many mistakes and it still not really matter.
"Freddy is an over-tweaked beefy killer who along with Oni and Spirit are part of the reason the Time-Crunch meta has become so overwhelming for both sides."
Freddy isn't over tweaked, he's what the other killers like Demo need to be brought up to. The "time-crunch" meta is on the killer side, not on the survivor side. Killer design has absolutely nothing to do with why survivors rush the gens at high ranks.
You can summarize most of the post as:
Survivors are gen rushing because killers like Freddy actually make them feel threatened, where as most killers the survivors "could" end the game, but those killers are so weak and bully-able that we'll intentionally let the game drag on so we can goof around and float our ego a little more.
You're essentially saying that the games are indeed completely in the survivors hands and that we should intentionally make the killers weaker so the survivors will "let" the games slow down because they'll feel less pressure.
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@Zeus said:
Yeah but the issue is you don't always know that you will be going against spirit.
And spirit knows that stridor will always help her.
Kind of irrelevant as Iron Will is already meta and extremely good against all killers. So it doesn't matter if you know you are going against Spirit or not.
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Midwhich or Saloon are my favorites atm for both sides.
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There does seem to be a lot of filler.
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Spirit is the most balanced killer in the game imo. A very unpopular opinion though.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1529617#Comment_1529617
Complaining about map design is pointless. It is not going to change. Reworked Badham will always have a school and that school will always have 3-4 safe/god pallets, a very strong window and the other maps which have jungle gyms will not change. A big issue for killers is how easy it is for survivor to "trade-down" pallets for generators at any point in the match. It does not matter if it happens early or mid game. It only takes 3 people to hold M1 generators in linear alignment(To avoid 3 gens) and for the killer to over-commit/make a few bad reads to lose the match. Fast chases is also relative term because the majority of killers lack lethality capitalize on survivor errors and those that do have instant down capacity do not have tools to challenge looping with rare exception to the Oni. Its one of main reasons why body blocking can be very effective strategy against most killers.
The alternative solution becomes picking killers that have highest probability to win all loops such as Nurse and Spirt mixed with perks that slow the game down which most commonly are sloppy,ruin/pop and sometimes Corrupt intervention. If survivors find it boring to hold M1 longer, than perhaps adding more reliable exposed perks that not rely on Haunted ground or Devour hope RNG factor would help killers have faster chases as mistakes would be more penalized.
The current problem is that majority of the killers can't capitalize on survivor mistakes quickly enough to change outcome of the match and those that can rely on perks halt generator progression and info perks.
"Complaining about map design is pointless. It is not going to change."
This is quite literally and factually incorrect. They just released a slew of map reworks trying to address this issue. Some fixed, some not enough, and some map not touched yet.
"The current problem is that majority of the killers can't capitalize on survivor mistakes quickly enough to change outcome of the match and those that can rely on perks halt generator progression and info perks."
You are seeing the bandaid solutions as the actual solutions. Insta downs and Exposed are not what's needed or solely allowing the killers to capitalize. Prime examples, Spirit and Nurse. They have neither but are still top tier.
What does make killers top tier is their ability to end chases quickly(this doesn't have to be insta downs or Exposed), are in control of the chase and map pressure. However, the reason those are the deciding factor on what makes a killer strong is because of the map design.
Killers shouldn't have to rely on survivor mistakes to win. Survivors should be reacting to killers, not the other way around. This is why Nurse and Spirit are strong. They are dictating the chase, not the survivor. This type of design philosophy is built into those killers but it can be given to all killers in the map maps and loops are designed. Loops are currently designed extremely safe and where there is very little room for "actual" mind games.
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Maps are the biggest issue. There are lots though.
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I agree pretty much.
Losing a game when you won every chase very quickly.
I want to lose because I was outplayed, not because gens are too fast. That is the most annoying thing.
Honestly I think the issue is less gen speed though, or more about map size and map design. The map sizes and how they are laid out just leaves it almost impossible to pressure the survivors how much you need to in order to slow the game down properly if they are even half decent. Obviously some small exception like Nurse, Spirit etc, but were are talking in general with most of the killer roster.
Currently as survivor your entire team could be completely trash at looping and all go down extremely quickly, but if you all know how to hold M1 on gens and not waste time you can still easily win. That's an issue imo.
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"This killer has an ability that can be used skillfully, but the game does not encourage more use of it outside of animation locks, as it has a very punishing cooldown if you miss, and it's quite easy to juke. Thus, this killer is often known for leaving not many options in chase to counterplay, as like I said, you either vault a window and get hit, or juke and get hit anyway. It's a very annoying thing to go against, as good as it is."
This sums up PH's issues exactly.
Your ideas for change almost identical to my thoughts for improvements as well.
Basically we want to shift his power to being used for mind games and predicting survivors movement/zoning when out of line of sight and not just auto lose/lose hits at windows/pallets.
You mentioned some of this:
Take 2 seconds of recovery off his fatigue after using his ranged attack and add 1 second of recovery after canceling his sword from the ground. Make the shock wave faster and apply the trenches on the ground of its radius. This will allow for zoning strategies and apply Torment on hit.
These changes take away the lose/lose scenario at pallets and windows by adding some counter play time. However, it now incentivizes and makes it actually worth it to make skilled shots when out of line of sight. Outside of animation lock it's current just not worth the risk for such a low reward, it's just too easy to dodge and too punishing.
This would add much more skilled, dynamic and fun game play to PH for both sides.
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@slim0b said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1528230#Comment_1528230
Yes the mechanic should not exist because it wasn't even his issue, the issue was his addons and these were fixed.
If you put a terrible change and it doesn't work at all, don't try and make it work, just take it out.
I wasn't inferring whether he needed the change or not, just pointing out that they didn't achieve their intended goal is all.
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Those are my top 3 as well.
I'd like some Legion changes but I don't see that happening.
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Well the overheat is so forgiving that you never actually overheat..so why even have the mechanic exist in the first place? I think that's the issue.
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I was much more forgiving the first year+ as well as I get it, people make mistakes, are learning, a small company, or figuring things out.
However, after years of playing the game, the same mistakes are made over, and over, and over, with nothing learned. The same problems occur and the same misunderstandings about the game balance happen. As much as they do put caveats on their data, they are still using it quite heavily for their decisions it's clear. There are many, many, many issues that impact that data so significantly that it is near useless in terms of measuring balance.
I like the company over all and some of the teams do an amazing job (art and sound team killin it). However, the balance and Q&A team has not been performing at an appropriate level for years.
It just makes some of us a little jaded after years of seemingly nothing learned.