Blueberry
Blueberry
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1582259#Comment_1582259
The Clown is the killer I want reworked the most despite my gripes with other killers. Poor guy. I did exploit the messed up mmr to play him again I'll admit.
I disagree on the chase time aspect. With most other killers you're spot on but not with Freddy. He often saves any time lost in a chase with a teleport to a gen afterwards and than some if using slowdown add ons or perks. I feel like he has the most time of any killer at the point in time. Most games a hook can gain you more time than you lose.
Laying traps is no significant time loss because there isnt any slowdown and the animation can be attack cancelled. And for the getting the hit part. Sure the first few chases might be somewhat long even with how incredibly fast you can trap a loop to force a pallet drop. But once those pallets are dropped or potentially broken chases will go shockingly fast as Freddy. And again, with certain add on combos he can gain significant time back from each hook.
I'm not denying he's much more time efficient than the other killers.
I guess where we're disagreeing is if he's too efficient. For how fast games go against good survivors I think the speed he does chases is near mandatory.
Since you think he's too fast with his chases, what would you call a fair timed chase? Like what other killer would you use as a good example. Other than the few top tier killers the rest are all way too slow to compete imo.
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1582179#Comment_1582179
I would argue that the Clown has limited supplies he can use around that loop much like Huntress. Both get slowed and have to replenish their supply is they misplay. Freddy has no such issue and can lay 5 around the loop in seconds to shut it down if he wants to. Than if you try to run to another he can just do it again free of charge.
"I would argue that the Clown has limited supplies he can use around that loop much like Huntress. Both get slowed and have to replenish their supply is they misplay."
That's a fair argument. However, my counter would be that Clown is currently weak and shouldn't actually be that bad. So we're comparing him to a killer that most acknowledge needs changes.
Also, Huntress isn't quite a fair comparison because yeah she has a slow down and reload, but that's because she can throw over the pallet/many walls and can hit you cross map.
"Freddy has no such issue and can lay 5 around the loop in seconds to shut it down if he wants to. Than if you try to run to another he can just do it again free of charge."
If we include chase time to the loop, laying the traps and then actually getting a hit, how long do you think it is gonna take?
I ask this because the survivor can still waste a good bit of his time before actually getting the hit. We're in a game balance where you need a pallet or a hit in roughly 15 seconds for each chase or you lose...
I'm implying that while he makes the chase quite short, it needs to be. It's the reason almost all the other M1 killers aren't that good, because they can't reliably get hits in remotely that time against good survivors. So compared to the other killers, yeah it's fast...but it needs to be. That's why he's one of the few viable killers against "good" survivors and most the others aren't.
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If you read my posts I illustrated how we're realistically not in a 2k 2e balance currently against high rank "good" players.
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@TrashByDaylight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1581807#Comment_1581807
Sure "so balanced" with a crap power teleporting easily and his trap ######### slowing doing survivors while looping (the only thing survivors can do against killers in a chase). No, he's not balanced, he's a ez killer
I never said he wasn't easy.
Also, you counter his anti-loop by just throwing the pallet early like against Clown.
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@EuphoricBliss35 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1582022#Comment_1582022
The game is meant to be balanced around 2 kills, 2 escapes. So, how does that equate to Freddy being “balanced”?
If you read all my posts in this chat I already answered your question.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1581944#Comment_1581944
Right, there are factors. DC, Mori, Maps you name them etc. All those factors also affect any other killer, and on average, every killer has to deal with the same stuff.
Which factor, in your opinion might have any influence that those stats are not valid?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1581948#Comment_1581948
Yes, they are old. Guess what happend meanwhile? Nothing but buffs/changes for killer ... and freddy remained untouched. I doubt the recent year has lowered freddys killrate that much but please proof me wrong.
You are right that many of the factors affect all the killers, not just Freddy. That's why all the kill stats are skewed, it's not just Freddy's. Freddy just happens to be higher than the other because he requires much less skill than some of the other top tier killers to perform well. This is part of why I think slower killers with stronger power like Nurse, Huntress etc are better design as they can be extremely strong but it requires high skill, but that's another topic. I'm just saying Freddy is what the other M1 killers should be, if we're going to have m1 killers.
Hypothetical here, but if the other killers were more realistically around a 1 kill 3 escape ratio and Freddy was at a 2 kill 2 escape ratio would that mean he's too strong? It just means the other ones need to be brought up, which is where I'm going with this.
I could list some other factors skewing the stats as well as the ones you mentioned but it doesn't seem you disagree with me on the factors. I think you're taking issue with why only him?
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I find killer way more enjoyable as it's much more of a challenge and I don't have to rely on randoms pulling me down.
That said, I like to play survivor to chill and wind down. It also lets me feel like the power role.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1581892#Comment_1581892
?
Excuse me but it was you who said he is in reality different then the 80% Killrate from those statistics.
Do you think those statistics are fake? Or that they feel different then 80% killrate?
Why put a question mark and act innocent, that is being quite disingenuous. You were being sarcastic as you know the devs are the only ones with actual data as they can see all the match results.
If you wanted a real and honest response you could simply ask why it is I believe that.
The statistics aren't fake. The problem with them is that there are a myriad of factors that are not taken into account which skew that data tremendously to where it is near worthless to use in terms of measuring balance. That devs realize this as well which is why they also specifically said not to draw any conclusions from the stats as you are doing right here.
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@naitsirhC said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1581807#Comment_1581807
He is pretty balanced until you get dedicated from across a pallet.
Yeah those do feel bad. That's more of an issue with the dedicated servers though.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1581843#Comment_1581843
Ah okay, so can you send me a link to your statistics please? The reality statistics
Logical reasoning works better than sarcasm if you'd like a real conversation.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1581807#Comment_1581807
I dont know if 80% killrate should be the gold standard or can be called pretty ballanced.
Those stats are near worthless for measuring balance. In reality he isn't actually that high.
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Freddy to me is the gold standard of how strong all the M1 killers should be. So no, I think he's pretty balanced.
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@mintchapstick said:
The speedruns are because tbh there's not enough for survivors to do. It's either do gens or interact with the killer, and unless you're a god looper that's just going to end up with you getting downed. And let me tell you, the amount of killers that stand there and stare at someone once they're down is like, actually insane. I think I played like 30 matches last night and about 25 of them were with a killer that just stared at people on hook.
I haven't seen a killer do that to me or anyone on my team in over 50 games at least.
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@bgbomb said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1581682#Comment_1581682
she definitely need addons.
otherwise the tinker rework would not effect her so much.
do you even play Huntress before ?
Just because the tinkerer rework effected her a lot doesn't imply she is addon reliant. The tinkerer plus addons old combo just made her busted like insta saw Billy.
I'm not saying she isn't massively better with addons, she is. I'm simply saying she doesn't need them to function decently.
I play her without addons regularly.
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I would say at least 50% of the perks on both sides are just mediocre-bad, with another 25% being meme worthy (that's worse than bad).
Only about 25% of the perks are decent-good and honestly I feel like that's being extremely generous.
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@RakimSockem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1581671#Comment_1581671
And I should just copy and paste my response to the other guy because I'm tired of this same argument to. No, the killer is not FORCED to respect any perk. I play killer and have played killer in red ranks all the way up to rank 1. I don't have to tunnel to win. Getting a 3k isn't even hard against the majority of teams. Killers who can't disperse pressure and bounce back and forth between survivors just aren't that good, bottom line.
I play primarily Huntress, Myers, Wraith and Doctor and do fine with all of them. This idea that you HAVE to play a certain way because DS and Unbreakable exist is ridiculous and simply untrue. If it were true and I had to, I would never have reached rank 1. It's a choice, not a requirement to play around DS and Unbreakable
"No, the killer is not FORCED to respect any perk."
Respect the perks, lose. Don't respect the perks, lose.
You lose all your pressure for respecting and you lose all your pressure for eating a DS, BT, Unbreakable etc.
"This idea that you HAVE to play a certain way because DS and Unbreakable exist is ridiculous and simply untrue."
Against GOOD survivors, it is fact.
There are a lot of potatoes at high rank that cover the issues and where what I've said do not apply. I am not talking about most games, I am talking about against actually good survivors. Those are two very different things and you're conflating them as the same.
"If it were true and I had to, I would never have reached rank 1"
Refer above ^ Most are potatoes, that isn't what I'm referring to.
"It's a choice, not a requirement to play around DS and Unbreakable"
It's a lose/lose scenario so saying it's a choice is being completely disingenuous.
Tell any person that plays both sides at rank 1 with a good amount of hours that you think those are the top tier perks for survivors in the game and they would laugh. I mean honestly, you seriously put Saboteur in that list...not only is it not in the top tier but it's literally trash/a meme.
There's a reason almost none of those outside of BT are the meta in top tier game play.
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She doesn't really need addons to be good anyway so I don't see that as much of an issue.
I also hope they do addon reworks for some other killers first. There are a few killers addons that are in much worse shape at the moment.
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I'm copy pasting this from another thread as it's similar to your topic and I'm tired of having to respond to these same things over and over.
The post is in regards to all the second chance perks but this includes DS for your purposes as well.
Whether they actually activate or not regardless, they are still the strongest perks in the game. This is because they force the killer to play in a way that loses him the game against good survivors. It's a lose/lose scenario.
You play the way that doesn't activate any of them, essentially making you play 1 hooking each survivor one at a time taking turns which is simply non viable entirely against good survivors.
OR
You eat the DS, the Unbreakable, the BT etc and lose because you wasted time in a chase that gained you nothing while the other survivors are pumping out gens.
Against good survivors you have to do some variation of either tunneling, soft camping, or slugging if you want to win and aren't on one of the top tier killers, that's just facts. Of which all the second chance perks force the killer to do none.
On top of...he has to play around the possibility you are running all these perks...even if you aren't running them. So just the fact of these perks simply existing is giving the survivors tons of value whether they actually have them for not.
If the killer played completely "fair", none of these perks activated and the survivor team still lost, they were bad or just played terribly that game.
Anyone who doesn't think DS is in the top 5 survivors perks doesn't play both sides at rank 1 with a decent amount of hours. It is by far one of the best perks in the game (if not the best, debatable) and that's agreed upon by almost all the high rank community that actually plays both sides. Almost none of those perks you mentioned are even remotely as good, with BT only coming close behind DS.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1581404#Comment_1581404
Basically this. Couldn't agree more.
I wouldn't mind playing fairly if the game is more fair to both sides. Play "fairly" now as killer is like asking me to lose the game on purpose, especially when playing as low tier killers.
(With that said, i still play it fairly because i know it's the game's fault, not survivors who just using the perks and items)
Yeah I still will typically play the fair (dumb) way as well to make the game as fun for everyone as I can. However, as soon as i see bm'ing or they make it clear they are trying to bum rush the gens as humanly possible in my face I switch gears. I leave it up the survivors as to how chill I play.
Not saying they shouldn't be rushing gens, but if I realize they don't care about my fun and aren't playing chill, I'll stop caring about their fun.
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Because a few of the OG killers like Trapper and Wraith for that matter have suffered from power creep. They aren't caught up with the game.
Trapper and Wraith are both extremely addon reliant as their base kits are terrible. They need more of their addon strength pushed into their base kit.
I'd say even a Trapper for example using his best addons only just puts him equivalent to most the other mid tier killers. That's pretty sad honestly.
Clowns another example of the power creep. Freddy is everything Clown has plus lotsss more.
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Because most the population on average isn't very good and she's a noob stomper. More so than most other killers. She's a killer that's significantly stronger than most if the survivors don't know what they're doing.
She's countered quite easily by good survivors.
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This is a prime example of why when people say all those survivor second chance perks are highly situational and don't activate often are just being disingenuous or simply not understanding the strength of the perks.
Whether they actually activate or not regardless, they are still the strongest perks in the game. This is because they force the killer to play in a way that loses him the game against good survivors. It's a lose/lose scenario.
You play the way that doesn't activate any of them, essentially making you play 1 hooking each survivor one at a time taking turns which is simply non viable entirely against good survivors.
OR
You eat the DS, the Unbreakable, the BT etc and lose because you wasted time in a chase that gained you nothing while the other survivors are pumping out gens.
Against good survivors you have to do some variation of either tunneling, soft camping, or slugging if you want to win and aren't on one of the top tier killers, that's just facts. Of which all the second chance perks force the killer to do none.
On top of...he has to play around the possibility you are running all these perks...even if you aren't running them. So just the fact of these perks simply existing is giving the survivors tons of value whether they actually have them for not.
If the killer played completely "fair", none of these perks activated and the survivor team still lost, they were bad or just played terribly that game.
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Some people with tinfoil hats would even say that the poor matchmaking, overly easy survivor pipping, and barely having a rank reset pushing potato survivors into high rank was all intentional to cover up the high rank game balance issues.
Some people.
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Agree on the main points.
On survivor said it's also the fact that they have these second chance perks that are just so absolutely insane that they overshadow and make all other perks look trash in comparison. So while we do need huge perk buffs all around, we also need to nerf the perks that are just way overbearing in comparison.
Hypothetically if all the second chance perks didn't exist I think we'd actually see quite a wide variety of perks being used.
All the second chance perks are game swinging effects that really aren't situational, have no cost, downside, skill requirement, or literally just ask anything of the survivor at all.
There's simply no reason not to run them unless you just wanna meme. They're just that good.
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The reason the perk is unhealthy is because it rewards free downs for doing nothing, not because it forces survivors to do totems.
Having it be an anti-gen rush perk is a good idea. It just needs the insta downs replaced with something else that isn't free downs for nothing.
Imo make it instead restart 3 random gens. This essentially makes the survivors do 1 extra gen if they tried to gen rush and ignore totems. This gives the killer more time to make skilled plays.
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I have all killers p3 level 50 with all perks. They've also almost all got quite a stockpile of addons as well. They're all different so it makes sense.
I only did that with 6 survivors seeing as they're just skins so it's kinda pointless to me.
Also, maintaining all of them up to date as new perks comes out is a lot already for all the killers, but to add all the survivors onto that would be just tiresome. That's on top of p3ing with level 50 and all perks on the new killer as soon as they come out which also gets longer and longer as more perks are added.
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The question everyone wants to know.
Especially seeing as they specifically said their intention was to improve it, not nerf it.
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@Eleghost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1580417#Comment_1580417
Judging from the amount of people who were for it and weren't for it in this post alone should answer that question.
Barely anyone has posted in this chat at all. Much less for or against.
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@Eleghost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1580079#Comment_1580079
Because if most people have it off then what's the point of implementing it?
What makes you assume most would have it off?
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If I was playing around rank 10 I'd say the game was quite well balanced.
However once you start playing at the highest ranks and with the best players the game has to offer the imbalances really start to show significantly. A lot of the game is balanced around assuming the player doesn't know what they're doing (IE low ranks), so when someone does actually know what they're doing it throws the balance out of wack. (IE high ranks that are able to abuse things for more than they were intended)
Is the game way, way more balanced than it used to be years ago? Of course it is
Is it balanced though? Definitely not.
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@RaSavage42 said:
Iron Will and Adrenaline
Adrenaline would've been my second choice after IW as well. Although it is complained about some, it only rewards the person for playing well which is good design imo. It also has the cost of being down a perk slot all game essentially.
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Most balanced/least controversial? I'd say Iron Will
Don't think I've ever seen a single post complaining about Iron Will.
It gives you more opportunities to make skilled plays but does nothing if you aren't good. Pretty well designed to me and pretty polar opposite of most the other meta perks. Most the other meta perks are game swinging effects, with zero cost, that aren't situational, ask nothing of the player and require zero skill. Speaking of most the survivor meta perks.
Killer side I'd say least controversial is probably Corrupt Intervention. I'd say most balanced here as well, but I think in general it's too weak to call well balanced. It's just the only real early slowdown killers currently have so there's no competition. Complained about but most balanced I'd say Pop. Strong if you play well, weak if you don't.
Most the other killer meta perks are all complained about. However, almost all of them have costs, skill requirements, or heavy restrictions.
IE I feel like there's a pretty heavy double standard in design when we look at both sides meta perks. So while both are complained about a lot I feel some are a bit more warranted.
For your other question:
I don't think any perks are innately toxic. What makes things toxic is how you use them.
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If it can be turned off I don't really see a reason not to add it.
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Billy
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I'd say the consoles have lowered the overall quality of the randos I get in solo queue quite substantially and they were already bad before.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1578659#Comment_1578659
Although this is in fact what I do, I never thought of it this way, but your point makes sense.
I guess comparatively speaking it would be like if a survivor finally finished a repair of a gen only to find it resets itself to zero progress.
Basically the same, except even worse because the killer is on the time crunch, not the survivors.
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Here's one of the best tips you can get:
Don't wait and react to what she does, force her to react to what you do.
You have to force her to guess and that's when you play unpredictably. Don't try and get feedback from her, give her wrong feedback from yourself that makes her misread your play. You have to play against her completely different from most of the other killer roster. You can't just run to a loop and then try to play her at it like every other killer.
Ex. You hold M1 and force her to power to catch up because she's slow. You fast vault the window to give her false information. We're going to assume worse case scenario that you're injured and she has Stridor. Now she's phasing around the wall and you slow vault back over. Now, don't slow vault immediately after the fast vault, otherwise she will here your breathing that you went back over. If you get the muscle memory for her phasing move speed you'll about know where she's at in her phase. You want her to have to commit to going around before you slow vault back over. Give it at least 2-3 seconds typically minimum.
Most players in that scenario misplay by slow vaulting back over too quickly, she hears their breathing and knows they faked it back over and then say she can't be counter played.
You have to get in her head and understand what she's hearing, seeing and thinking, as well as muscle memory for her phasing. It can also be difficult to hear, but her footsteps are audible and is something you can take advantage of.
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Midwhich is fine. None of those things you mentioned are an issue.
You not being able to find the way down to save a survivor is you not knowing the map, not an issue with the map itself.
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Dedicated servers have been giving me awful ping, like 150-170. It's making for some really wild looking hits from far away or the killer to get stunned from a pallet 2 seconds later.
With peer to peer I could at least choose all the 30 ping matches to play.
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It's not directional.
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@ToxicMyers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1578659#Comment_1578659
If you slug 2 people and go for the 2 others that's 2 people who have to heal. I'm saying eating unbreakable is better than eating ds.
If you got in that situation in the first place the survivors weren't playing well.
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@ToxicMyers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1578455#Comment_1578455
Slug make then waste unbreakable if they have it that's one survivor off gens and one mending
4 "wasted" Unbreakables is 4 times you slugged and got zero pressure out of it. Aka the gens are done now.
It's like telling them to just eat 4 DS's and now they're "wasted". Aka 4 DS hits where you didn't get pressure from your time spent downing them means the gens are now done.
Against good survivors there isn't time to be wasted like that.
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@BigTimeGamer said:
If someone else is hooked, DS deactivates
If you are in a chase, DS timer pauses
fixed
Add that it also deactivates if they start working on objectives as then they obviously aren't being tunneled. If we add all those things then a paused timer while in chase is totally fine with me as then it's even better for countering tunneling but won't be abused as just a 60 second immunity.
I don't think anyone minds an anti-tunnel perk, they just don't like a 60 second immunity to work on gens/totems etc in their face.
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Welcome to the game!
You'll need to brace yourself as people will inevitably yell at you or call you names. Just don't take any of it to heart and brush it off as with any online game, there's just a lot of it here. It's all just words and people get caught up in the moment.
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@goatslinger said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577014#Comment_1577014
Wait...Tru3 said he is a better killer than zubat?
No, he didn't.
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Defensive is how you play her, you don't want to be aggressive. You never commit to chases outside your web.
As you mentioned you're generally gonna pick your best 3 gen as soon as the match starts and essentially never leave it. You just camp those 3 gens and whatever unfortunately soul gets hooked inside the web as an unlucky casualty of being near the gens. That's just how she plays which is why a lot of people don't like going against her.
Thanata is a trap perk. It does very little.
Sloppy and Monitor are great. Ruin if you like it, but I think it's too much of a gamble of it's found and whether or not it happens to be in the 3 gen you want. I personally think Surge is way better because you're more likely to hit multiple gens with it because you picked your 3 gen as the closest gens and it saves you kick time which is more substantial on a slower killer like hag.
I personally have a soft spot for Surveillance on her for locking down your 3 gen and it synergizes well with Surge.
MYC is also an extremely strong choice.
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I agree there is a pretty hard double standard going on with the "mind game" vs "guessing" debate.
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I don't really see any purpose in them other than being abused by SWF. Can't see a killer having any real reason to use them.
At least if they were secret offerings they'd have more purpose as now they could cover up knowing if there was a mori offering.
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I could be okay with it, IF totems actually got substantial improvements to functionality and placement. Just adding a counter without doing anything else would be further nerfs to hex perks that are already overall weak to begin with.
To be clear though, I think NOED needs a rework as well.
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Deep Wounds just needs to be stronger without being more "anti-fun".
We could tweak the visuals to help you, but it would need other improvements.