Ayodam
Ayodam
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675240#Comment_3675240
They removed Bubba masks over a few bad actors and bhvr set the precedent this is how they will treat toxicity. Don't ban the actors, remove cosmetics.
That was more than a few bad actors and harmful comments. Black fog whisperers were doxxed (miladyconfetti is one I specifically know was doxxed), which means the harassment wasn’t just online in EGC or their stream chats. And the Smart Skin being used to promote minstrelsy & anti-blackness had a stronger relationship than the Unknown’s link to a MTF transgender identity. If we’re going by the Unknown, a genderless entity, not looking ‘feminine’ enough in its feminine skins to ‘pass’ as a cis woman you could make the same argument for Huntress and Charlotte, who are also quite masculine presenting. And the people still harass Black survivor characters and even David or anyone with the associated LGBTQIA+ charms—regardless of character. That’s still a thing in this game. I would hope these things aren’t removed because they’re magnets for bigotry. Same with the unknown skins although tbh it’s not a connection I would have never made.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675581#Comment_3675581
I'd wager its because it's much easier to leave survivors in a weak state overall than remove the ability to play with friends which would cause a lot of problems with both casual and competitive audiences.
Also I'd say all the basekit survivor nerfs are also swf nerfs.
Or would it balance out by creating a better experience for killer players.. which is the crux of your argument?
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@PotatoPotahto said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675454#Comment_3675454
Killer perk: 10% usage rate
Survivor mains: "OMG this perk is so overwhelming"
Just like Adrenaline. 🤷🏽♀️ 💅🏾
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675519#Comment_3675519
My theory is that their data most likely showed that bad killers are more likely to quit if faced with too much challenge, and on the other side most survivors are likely to still play even if they lose a majority of their games as long as it means they get into game quickly.
It sounds like a tinfoil hat moment, but think about it, with the amount of lobby dodging and moaning about swf, the amount of killers that would simply not enjoy the game if they were faced with a real challenge in most of their games has to be pretty high.
BHVR really wants killer to feel like the power role, so slaughtering more than half your lobbies is their way of achieving this, it also doubles as a low-cost way to maintain the game since it doesn't require any meaningful resources being put into balance.
Of course this is on BHVR and not the killer playerbase.
I’d challenge your theory by saying if BHVR is more concerned with player retention and satisfaction on the killer side, why not nerf or eliminate their biggest gripe: SWF? You could argue it would drive survivors away but if they target only 3-4 man SWF teams that’s less than 30% of all survivor players.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674875#Comment_3674875
I would like a second objective but not one that has survivors just sitting in the basement half the match, its not actively progressing anything really because a whole 10 charges off a gen isn't worth that
They probably thought “damn that Alan Wake boom didn’t hook survivors back to that time-wasting mechanic like we thought. Let’s do it again but call it something else!” and thus invocations were born. Weaving Spiders is one of the best killer perks in the game right now.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I do wonder if we might be starting to see the ripple effect of not matching players accurately in terms of playstyle. You have to figure that the players who prefer to be optimal will get fed up with teammates who throw for Archives or don't do objectives.
I personally haven't launched the game in over a month. I'm the type of survivor who constantly sticks gens and plays pretty optimally. And I feel like my time is being wasted most of the time on solo queue. I don't get teammates who play like I do or have anything close to my experience level. So I quit playing.
I wonder if other players with my mindset are gradually doing the same. You eventually end up with a hyper casual playerbase, and that's going to frustrate some people.
@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675490#Comment_3675490
This reads like it came directly from my mind.
And yes, i dont play much survivor anymore but rather either 1v1s against other maniacs or killer games. My main issue with survivor is that i have to be significantly better then the killer to even reach a 50% winrate - on the highest level of course, otherwise you are stuck with the other 40/60s. And that feels like a chore ngl.
Interestingly enough whenever I see this topic emerge, people suggest making amends with the fact you probably won’t escape and finding fun in farming/goofing. Well, for survivors. I don’t ever see this advice offered to killer players. Have either of you tried approaching your survivor games in this way? Like yeah you’re probably going to lose but hey you can maybe have fun before you do by being silly.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675416#Comment_3675416
The only reason longer heals encourages not healing is because of how overly safe staying injured is. If loops were less overly safe, maps less overly big allowing hold w and pallets not as abundant then they would actually be in danger more than they are and would heal regardless of the time.
I disagree. You could take a killer like Doctor or Demo or any one of these killers that has no-chase mobility and just pre-run. hold-w from one end of the map to the other. get hit, hold-w back to the other side of the map and the chase will be like 45 seconds with killer acquiring bloodlust on every single chase. I haven't done this experiment but I would very curious if you could finish all 5 generators with killer taking isolation chases where they're not camping/tunneling off hook. I have feeling that you could win the entire game with just fast healing(Like botany knowledge+We'll make it) and nothing else. Use 0 pallets or windows and still probably get a 3 man escape on like an average map e.g shelter woods. that is a problem and it is not a map design issue. that health-state balance issue. Being healthy is too rewarding in the game vs weaker killers.
The game is balanced around killer being able to "machine gun" the survivor. It is not exclusive nurse trait either. Many killers are able to do it. For example, Wesker can m1 a survivor, recover from a swing then use 2 virulent bound to get a follow up hit. Chucky can do something similar with S&D. Some killer have access to machine gun in the form of range such as Huntress hatchets, Trickster's blades and so on. Fast-pace downs allows for great killer skill expression and survivor skill expression because the killer can get a quick down if they play well and the survivor can try to out-skill and survive the chase for longer. Sloppy was problematic for the majority of killers because the mangled slowdown healing so significantly that it enables killer stronger killer to almost keep entire lobby injuries for entire trial. Sure the mangled may have been balanced for weaker killers due to their poor time efficiency but not so much for strong killers. Killers with machine gun/mobility powers have too much of time efficiency advantage in chase compare those that do not. that is not really talking about the safe pallet loop balance on some maps that divides killers further.
On side note, being permanent injured is not very fun for survivor. Making healing so impractically slow is indirectly erasing the healing and health-state system in the game. The healing system should not be erased but rather balanced where successful healing does not equal free win.
“On side note, being permanent injured is not very fun for survivor. Making healing so impractically slow is indirectly erasing the healing and health-state system in the game. The healing system should not be erased but rather balanced”
This is the reason. Survivors weren’t healing—which killers ironically complained about. With sloppy and mangled reigned in, they might heal again.
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@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674996#Comment_3674996
They're basically insinuating that trans women look like a deformed monster in a dress
How despicable. People are absolutely wretched here.
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This is vile behavior, but what is the correlation between the Unknown and transphobia?
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Well, people asked for survivors to receive a second objective/passive slowdown for killers… here you are. 🤭
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674626#Comment_3674626
Its a meta perk because its unfair its not unfair because its a meta perk, now just because it doesn't work perfectly every match doesn't mean its effect isn't strong when it does work. So rather than a big burst that swings matches it should be something more constant but weaker for example.
As with most things because it only activates at the end of the game that means its a lot stronger against weaker killers than it is against stronger killers so it probably should get some changes
Adrenaline is META because every other method of healing stinks for survivor. This perk circumvents the healing nerfs but at a risk. Most survivor perks are situational. The reason more people don’t gripe about them is because despite being situational, the benefits are marginal at best. In short, killers don’t mind situational perks (for survivors) that have weak effects. What you all dislike are situational perks (again for survivors) that have good effects.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674456#Comment_3674456
You didn't ask which map is worse than Saloon, you asked which other map is killer sided, if not this.
knock out a couple of the pallets and you genuinely have little to nothing to worry about.
Yeah, this is how gameplay in this game works. If killer destroys resources, area will be unsafe. What's wrong with it?
They’re unsafe even if the killer doesn’t destroy them. This map has the 2nd highest kill rate avg in the game. It’s 2nd to midwich.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673496#Comment_3673496
What was the purpose of making that point in this context though?
Think about it what bearing does that point have on the conversation at all?
It’s completely irrelevant to the discussion.
It implied by saying that tutorials aren’t a necessity in gaming that I would also have to believe that accessibility option aren’t either. A gross assumption and when called on that assumption they simply non-committedly back-pedalled on it.
Which funnily enough was an example of disingenuousness that was relevant to the topic. It’s why I pressed the issue because I’d thought that’s what we’d get.
The point is tutorials not being a thing is completely different from accessibility options not being a thing. They aren’t the same.
To imply they are is to insult people who need accessibility options.
I think he just drew a parallelism that makes sense in his mind. Maybe there was no point; it could have just been a random thought that occurred to him which he shared with you. Could have been knee-jerk. Or quite possibly to him it seemed relevant enough to share. But I don’t believe he was labeling you as anti-accessibility (or even someone against basekit features).
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BHVR knew what they were doing when they released these perks. Killers wanted slowdown and ‘something else’ for survivors to do. Well, here you are.
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You can already kind of determine a survivor player’s relationship to other players by checking their profiles. A lot of players are wising up and locking/privatizing their profiles now but generally if people in a lobby are friends they’re a SWF.
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@Mercês said:
I believe I'm not biased. I just don't understand why people say that survivors are not entitled to a free health state, but killer is entitled to a free hook state (by proxycamping).
Facecamping is the same thing as proxycamping. I don't know why we are seeing differently. The system is ineffective.
A short history lesson…
At one point in DBD history (prior to patch 6.1.0), camping could potentially cost a killer the game. I think both sides at the time recognized it as a throw.
Killers who couldn't really keep up with survivors in other ways (as in they couldn’t apply adequate pressure) often resorted to this to secure at least one kill. If they were savvy, they might get two.
Interestingly enough, this particular scenario is where the term “genrush” originates. In these days survivors fought back against camping (face and proxy) by rushing through gens.
Usually the cost was great; someone would die. But despite this more often than not the team could guarantee 3 people out. If they were savvy they could even coordinate a save to get a 4-man escape.
This isn’t the case now. Gens are much too slow, so if a killer camps one survivor to death at 3+ gens incomplete there isn’t a feasible way for the active survivors to finish enough gens to punish the killer for camping.
For a long time BHVR seemed OK with this dynamic. I personally think it allowed them to be hands off in a way they seem to prefer. But after a while popular streamers who mained killers complained about this, and would not stop. So, we ended up with a lot of the changes you see today: Camping & tunneling (which has actually always been META but was much harder to pull off in the old days) being super efficient strategies that survivors have little to no recourse against.
I hope this clears some things up for you.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673461#Comment_3673461
In this case you did display disregard for it. Nothing you have said has changed that, only demonstrated your failure to realize it.
To be fair I didn’t sense that he was suggesting you are against accessibility features. I believe he was drawing a parallel (that I too have seen btw) between the arguments of people who are against anti-base kit features for survivors and people who were against accessibility features. Just my interpretation.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673292#Comment_3673292
Not knowing where it is is kind of moot within the first few minutes of the match. As for the 20 seconds, the same could have been said about getting to a boon of healing, and even that was deemed too oppressive against killers for their self heal capabilities.
CoH requires travel time true enough but that was somewhat mitigated by the fact that old CoH allowed the entire team to heal at will. This basement selfcare isn’t comparable to that for obvious reasons. If you’re gonna judge it against something, judge it against Selfcare, the more analogous perk.
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@I_CAME said:
I really don't know why they even made this system. Facecamping was dead the moment they removed hook grabs. Why did they put all this work into a full system that doesn't actually do anything? I've seen it trigger once in 500+ games and that was because a friendly killer intentionally triggered it. Seems like a waste of resources. It would have made more sense to make a system that makes it possible to unhook against camping instadown killers like bubba, billy, etc. This remains a problem and there is still no counterplay that doesn't result in someone dying.
To shut survivor mains up. They can say, “there we did something about camping. Now shut up and buy this goth girl cosmetic.” And guess what? People will shut up, buy that goth girl cosmetic, and continue being camped lol
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@xltechno said:
It can't be helped because there is a discrepancy between the game balance that a beginner feels and the game balance that comes from the experience of a non-novice. What we need is beginner mode, not buffs or nerfs. And when it comes to these kinds of topics, the only thing that is always talked about is the novice survivor.
No one has said anything about novice survivors except you. And it’s an irrelevant statement point. Players at every level have a right to share what they think of the game.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
Better than before but still not really worth it. Her aura perk on the other hand looks pretty good now.
I am glad they are trying out something new though. Hopefully they don’t just give up on it like they did with Teamwork perks.
The devs gave up on Teamwork perks because survivors don’t use them… with good reason. They have a ton of drawbacks for what is at best a marginal gain. The devs tried bringing Boons back but as we see this didn’t go well either. In my estimate perks of these stripes (teamwork, boon, invocation) create slow down for killers, but they need to be attractive so survivors want to use them. The problem is that to make them attractor they must provide an indelible benefit to survivors. Survivors don’t run them because they hinder more than help, which makes them useless as passive slowdown.
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They were going to rework it but given the climate of this game I personally believe it’s best to allow only the moderators to be ‘trusted.’
People can be civil, polite, and kind but when it comes to posting I’ve not seen any member, beyond moderators, on this forum with an unbiased view point. And I suspect the only reason moderators appear unbiased is because they engage very little with theoretical posts.
Any sort of prestige status would lead to infighting and suspicion. Fog Whisperers don’t even have a distinction from regular gamers in this forums.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671623#Comment_3671623
What's fun about Merchant games if you don't mind me asking?
I like figuring out different strategies to overcome her. It’s exhilarating to pull off escapes again her.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671856#Comment_3671856
How do you run off to get into a locker when you're downed?
At this point he’s just throwing anything at the wall in the hopes something sticks.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671732#Comment_3671732
The difference with BIlly is that you will get the unhook fairly easy. Dodge once or start the animation before you go down and there's almost no way he can prevent it. Ghostface would already need to have you on 99%. Otherwise, he can't really prevent the unhook either. Clown on the other hand could do that. This is my main problem with this addon.
Bubba has a similar issue, that's true. Although at least with Bubba, you'd expect it. 😂
Huntress and Trickster can also efficiently camp with their powers. They circumvent the anti-face camp mechanic as well.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671723#Comment_3671723
One must factor in travel time when comparing the time investment of Strength in Shadows to SC + BK.
This is of course true but I said above that it's a more situational perk (not reliable). When it comes to raw numbers you can heal yourself fairly quick with a single perk and get aura reading on top of that. It's nowhere near meta but it's not so bad that it will never see usage.
That appears to be missing from your equation—likely because that unknown distance time could be 2 seconds to 2 minutes.
That is one reason for it. The other is, that we're comparing a combination of 2 perks with 1 perk. You can't really say what is stronger because that massively depends on the game. In one game, you could be on Rotten Fields and always get value from it, the next you're on RPD and cannot make your way to the basement all the time. So both have their strengths and weaknesses.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be fine with buffing the perk a bit more but I think it's fairly decent overall.
I actually really liked the Pinky Finger add-on as it was. I dunno why the devs decided to nerf it.
I'll be honest, I hate this addon. The best use for it is to run after a survivor and then shove a bottle up their arse. That is not really fun and it certainly doesn't feel good to play against. Although, the anti face camping mechanic removed the most problematic aspect from it, so I guess it wasn't as bad as it used to.
And I despise the change to his intoxication effect.
You're referring to the visual effect, right? Does that really make a big difference? I haven't tested him on the PTB, so I can't tell.
Yes. It’s much easier to run from Clown now that there’s no distortion to the intoxication tonic. The survivor is slightly slower but that’s it. They won’t run into objects anymore because they can literally see clearly.
While using Pinky Finger to camp (which one could still do with the anti-face camp mechanic) is a cheesy thing to do, I’ve consistently believed such strategies are fair game unless the developers patch it out. I understand people dislike dealing with it and Clown in general but Billy has a built-in insta down, Bubba has the same, Ghostface does as well. Not sure why Clown couldn’t keep his powerful add-on.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671289#Comment_3671289
Nightlight is not very accurate. Sorry.
…haven’t you yourself used nightlight before to support points you’ve made?
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671596#Comment_3671596
The Pinky Finger was nerfed actually. They reduced the max amount of bottles with this addon to 1 (similar to iri head). So it doesn't matter what other addons you use, it will still only be 1 bottle. I honestly don't have an issue with that though. This addon is simply stupid and should be reworked.
Wicked is a situational but pretty good perk when it comes to that. I'd really like to know if it also works when you're in second stage. That would be pretty cool. Although it has the problem, that you can never really predict it's usefulness. One match it might be insane, the next it does nothing. The aura vision is pretty powerful though. So it may work as an anti tunnel perk.
Strength In Shadows is not bad actually. It's not the most reliable perk either but it has a fairly decent effect and the aura vision is again pretty strong. 10 seconds is a lot and especially in a SWF, this is quite disgusting.
Weaving Spiders is very disappointing though. They really want to keep this whole basement focus so badly and I just can't understand why. The effect is good but the time investment and the extra downside just break it.
Also, I'm pretty sure SC + Botany Knowledge is actually weaker than Strength In Shadows. With Self-Care you take roughly 45 seconds to heal yourself. Botany Knowledge increases the speed by 50% so we get: t = 45 seconds / (100% + 50%) = 45 seconds x 2/3 = 30 seconds. On the other hand you have SIS with a 70% healing speed, which brings you to: t = 16c / (0.7c * s^(-1)) = 22.86 seconds.
I disagree that survivors got nothing useful with this chapter. Could her perks be a bit better? Definitely. But are they as bad as you made it sound? I don't think so. They certainly have some use and a SWF can definitely work with all the aura reading. In solo queue, I reckon Wicked could be a useful anti tunnel tool but that kind of depends on the killer.
One must factor in travel time when comparing the time investment of Strength in Shadows to SC + BK. That appears to be missing from your equation—likely because that unknown distance time could be 2 seconds to 2 minutes. Either way, this isn’t a variable SC-BK has to deal with.
I actually really liked the Pinky Finger add-on as it was. I dunno why the devs decided to nerf it. And I despise the change to his intoxication effect. Clown was one killer I could basically destroy an entire team with rather easily. He really got a raw deal this update.
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@GeneralV said:
To be fair, this clip isn't exactly proof of anything.
Doctor, Artist, Huntress, even Freddy could have gotten that hit simply by using their power. This only caused a certain outrage, if I may put it that way, because the Skull Merchant's hate train hasn't dissipated yet.
This Meg attempted to loop an extremely unsafe pallet and she got hit as a result. This is natural, it is part of the game.
I like playing as and facing SM (even when she could 3-gen) so I may be biased but I think Meg could have avoided that hit if she’d paid more attention and remained calm. I think she panicked, misjudged how close SM was to her (and thereby thought SM could m1 her), and forgot about the drone.
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I’m with @jesterkind i think Meg could have avoided that if she had been paying a little more attention. She probably freaked because she thought she’d get the m1 but she could have crouched to circumvent the scan and still got away. She did have distance.
However, @mikewelk, you are right in that it can be difficult to deal with a SM. I don’t think this is the best example of how oppressive SM can be.
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@Deathstroke said:
Nerf killers who are too good at tunneling blight, nurse etc. Put best killers agains't best survivors so make better matchmaking. Then see if that makes it more balanced ds back to 5s should be done too.
The problem is that any killer can cheese a win by tunneling. Nurse and Blight are the least of any survivor’s worries these days.
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@Feneroe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671545#Comment_3671545
Yes, because it's an individual win rate and not a team win rate. Aiming for an individual win rate of 50% for each member of the side with four people will end up with a sub-30% win rate for the side with only one.
Sorry, it’s not a win rate at all; it’s actually the escape rate.
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671545#Comment_3671545
That's 40% is not win-rate btw. It's just escape rate. So it included hatch escapes, mercy escapes by killers. Win-rate is probably lower, that's why BHVR shared escape rates instead of win-rates.
Right. I just realized my mistake. Lol
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@Brimp said:
Survivors actually in a good spot right now. The only thing holding back survivor isn't buffs or nerfs to them, its communication which we should not be buffing perks/base game mechanics in compensation for no communication.
Survivors are in a “good spot” with a *40% win rate..?
*likely lower, this doesn’t count games with a DC, hatch, or games that are reported.
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Just… run Lightborn? lol. I don’t really see Background Player enough to be irritated by it but if it’s that prevalent in your games devote a perk slot to countering it.. like survivors have to do.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671323#Comment_3671323
BHVR is super scared of releasing good survivor perks. Weaving Spider is a great example. It could have a good effect, but the condition is so over the top, nobody will successfully use that one.
That’s because of specific killer content creators; i.g. Otzdarva. His videos more recently are downplaying or outright ignoring survivor issues—which is strange because he used to speak about them quite a bit. Anyway he’s known for rallying the killer community against certain survivor perks with his ‘balanced’ philosophy, but glosses over if not outright ignores killer perks or add-ons that are overpowered. I believe he’s largely responsible for the dev’s new approach to survivor perks (he made a lot of noise about MFT, but he thinks Weaving Spiders is good btw).
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Two is better than one, but it would still be an underwhelming and underused perk with these changes.
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@Hexling said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669550#Comment_3669550
He's pretty weak might as well play huntress instead. More skill expression, cooler trick shots, medium strength, and way more fun cosmetics.
He’s a machine gun that can only be countered (somewhat) by tall walls.
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@Exxodus21 said:
At this point the should remove the ability to self un-hook unless you're running a perk that allows it and remove the struggle option from second phase. They're both outdated mechanics anyways and more often than not serve as a way to avoid the DC penalty while still ruining the game for everyone else.
So essentially survivors should be slugged on hook.
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@Bafugaboo said:
So games before make tunneled and gen rushers interesting
Possibly. You dunno what you’re gonna face until the match begins.
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@Bafugaboo said:
Played 5 games friendly in a row. All 5 gen rushed so wonder why those who want to win tunnnel? Maybe it’s the survivors fault lol.
Counter point: You may have played in a ‘friendly’ manner but the 10+ killers those survivors faced before you were utterly ruthless. Those survivors were conditioned to play aggressively because of past experiences.
Now whose fault is it?
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670561#Comment_3670561
I understand your perspective but nevertheless it is an extremely common playstyle for this killer—because it works.
I made my point clear on what I think is more efficient. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
However, this is the part that still works. This wasn't nerfed. Everything else was. So really we are both not on opposite sides but on the same. I would like this strategy to become less popular but nerfing her normal play style (occasionally interrupting a survivor to steal their time) is not the way to do it. You don't need to see boxes and you don't need the 2.5 minutes timer over the 3 minutes to make this work because you only use the very base mechanics of a M1 killer (and maybe her ambush around loops).
while it’s not the way the character is meant to be played it catapults her kill rates because it offers no real counter play.
This is a dangerous claim to make. Because the devs have never said anything in that regard and you could make the same claim with pretty much every strategy you don't like. Until the devs tell us: "This is the way the game is meant to be played and everything else is tolerated at best." this doesn't work. We really don't know how each killer is meant to be played.
I reckon, everything that's not against the rules in any way, is considered the way the game is meant to be played and this is something that I like about DBD. You have a lot of different ways to play.
In my experience players will prioritize trying to remove the head trap over anything else. And if you keep pushing them off the boxes or even slug them, they become desperate and essentially throw the game or simply die to the trap.
I agree. This was the exact problem with a 3 minutes timer. You have too much time to do other stuff, which is amplified by the fact that the Pig player will no longer know where to go to interrupt you, so the trap becomes a side objective. This is what I argued against @Aven_Fallen.
So in short, they nerfed her more skillful play style while keeping the problematic ones just as they are. You can still walk around with scream perks and achieve the same results as before and you can still follow the same survivor until they die. But you cannot play the long game anymore and pressure the entire team until the survivor with an active trap has to go for an unhook and then harass them once or twice on boxes (keep in mind, they won't follow you around for long because the timer is stopped) to get a kill and turn the game in your favor.
Pig shines at low to mid MMR where killers more commonly harass survivors with the RBTs because that’s easy and it works. I don’t believe people who enjoy or want strategic (as in requiring a lot of game sense, killer insight, or macro-micro skill) gamplay turn to this killer for that. Pig is a noob stomper & solo queue destroyer not unlike Pinhead, Sadako, and Freddy and yes even with her changes she remains good at that. But one thing about the devs is that they’ll try to create the illusion of caring about oppressive playstyles with half-cocked bandaids that don’t fully prevent or block that play style. They basically try to walk the line & so you get a pig who appears ‘nerfed’ in a way but can still do the awful, unfun thing she’s extremely good at doing to solo queue and newbie survivors. Does that make sense?
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670561#Comment_3670561
While I understand where your point is coming from, 1 thing that just doesn't make sense in your argument, is how is doing this more effective than regular tunneling at low MMR? You can go for it if you want... but it's extremely inefficient.
If you go after a head trapped survivor either chasing or downing them, you pause the timer. That is literally identical to regular tunneling... as the head trap might as well not exist, and any notion a Pig RBT helps you tunnel by virtue of survivors panicking to get a trap off, loses out with even a minor level of thought spared to the myriad of Killers way better tunneling than Pig... e.g. Blight, Nurse, Wesker, Xeno, Demogorgon and ofc Pyramid Head, and whole slew of others with way more efficient anti-loop and chase down powers...
If you try to kill a survivor by crouching after them to pop their head... you end up wasting so much time doing this. It's 2 and half minutes... 3 survivors left alone for that length of time should be able to pop 3 or 4 gens easily, even in the lowest of low MMRs and even with things like Deadlock to slow them down... Do also bear in mind they already popped 1 in order for the trap to be active, and that also doesn't count any of the progress they got during the time you had to chase or down the survivor...
Maybe you're referring to some kind of hybrid playstyle, where you regularly check in on boxes.... but then ofc if we assume you're trying to trap multiple survivors, there is also the possibility they complete searches and they had the 1 or 2 trap all along, unless you get at least 3 out, you can't bank of a 4 box trap to net you your kill... and if you're getting 3 traps out there, you're leaving time for people to get traps off... so I just can't see how you can call this a genuine gamebreaking problem that needs hefty nerfs to resolve...
If its such a significant problem, why isn't it done by every Pig player? It isn't... because it's crap and doesn't win you the game most of the time against anyone even remotely competant.... and even if you constantly score 4ks, you're gonna go up against people where it won't work eventually... and once you reach that point it'll almost never work. They'll happily tea bag you to death with 1 hooks and 0 kills.
The only reason its even remotely viable right now is scream builds... this is unfun true enough, and something that would be much healthier to target with nerfs, which none of the proposed nerfs in PTB did. However importantly, even with scream builds... the Pig is still FAAAAAR from overpowered.
Head pops only come in when Pig's are trying to win, when they get the RNG, identify the RNG, move to captialise on the RNG, and survivors meanwhile don't notice it. Radiant's game vs. Knightlight highlights this perfectly, and is a shining example of high level non tunnel Pig play... and as Radiant will admit... that game was on a knife edge that needed the RNG and survivors to make a bad mistake in order to win... You can hardly call that an overpowered killer that can't be countered.
I don’t believe I said this particular brand of tunneling is more efficient than the classic style; I said that tunneling (in any way) is META and Pig players harassing survivors with RBT is a common playstyle in low to mid MMR. Whether I personally believe this is the best strategy or not is irrelevant because what it comes down to is that if it weren’t common she would still be able to see the trap boxes as a standard part of her kit. Evidently the devs see an issue with Pig players harassing survivors with the traps and have nerfed part of her kit as a result of it. Personally, I suspect her kill rate is largely a byproduct of Pig players harassing survivors with RBTs until they die.
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I saw that too. I thought people were trolling but a lot of people think size = survivor sided, even if most of the size is basically nothingness/empty space. This map is full of dead zones—as are the other coldwind maps.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670561#Comment_3670561
I do not support people that just crouch behind a survivor for 150 seconds straight to get a kill by any means, but how can you say how this character or any character is supposed to be played?
Its in the game. Playing this way is valid. Not nice nor healthy but valid.
Because it technically was meant to be a slowdown feature, not a novel way to tunnel survivors out of the game. This is evident by the changes the devs have made to Amanda’s ability to locate the RBT boxes & initially the increased timer duration (that was reversed but she still can no longer see the box aura without an add-on). And as I’d mentioned to Xernotron earlier it is indeed a fair game playstyle. For once you and I agree on something.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
IMO it is worse than Self Care.
I think both are bad, but Strength in Shadows is worse, simply because you cannot use it everywhere like Self Care. It might be faster, but depending on the Travel Time, it might end up slower. Plus, it is just more risky.
I have the same feeling about it. it’s a more situational, riskier Selfcare (which itself isn’t a stellar perk). I’d rather just run Selfcare + Botany and have the freedom to heal in safer places.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670261#Comment_3670261
For Pig, it's not the most efficient way. Because she has a power that best works when spreading pressure. Running after that same survivor the entire time (tunneling) does not allow her to benefit from her power. The timer stops, which I already mentioned. So she basically becomes a M1 killer with no power to help her out when she tunnels.
This is like debating that M1 killers are actually pretty damn strong because they all have the ability to tunnel. Yet, they aren't that great. You invest a lot of time to get your first down, then proceed to pressure exactly 1 survivor while the other 3 do gens. For a Pig to get her first down, she usually loses 2-3 gens. After that the real tunneling starts. But then the game is only gonna take about 2 minutes until the other 3 have escaped. So you kill 1 person but all the gens are done and the exit gates probably open already. All because you played the purest form of M1 killer.
I understand your perspective but nevertheless it is an extremely common playstyle for this killer—because it works. Tunneling a vulnerable survivor out who is unable to participate in the objective is more efficient than spreading pressure. It’s just like the Sadako condemned strategy, really: while it’s not the way the character is meant to be played it catapults her kill rates because it offers no real counter play. Maybe it doesn’t work so well with high level players but low to mid where most players fall, Pig’s ability to harass survivors with RBTs cleans house. I’ve done it myself a few times. It’s cheap, easy, and virtually guarantees a 4K. In my experience players will prioritize trying to remove the head trap over anything else. And if you keep pushing them off the boxes or even slug them, they become desperate and essentially throw the game or simply die to the trap.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670017#Comment_3670017
I never said, it shouldn't be a way to play the killer. It's just that it's inefficient (which in my opinion is fine because you don't use the power to your benefit). However, this is the play style that still works, while smarter gameplay has become even harder and less efficient. That's the entire point I tried to make.
Also, just because I'm a killer main doesn't mean I'll agree with every other killer main. I have a brain of my own, you know. 😉
Xernotron, tunneing by any means (turning the game into 3v1 ASAP) is the most efficient way to win. Pig has a novel way of doing it, but it’s still tunneling which is META.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670002#Comment_3670002
So you have an issue with a killer playing pure M1 killer without benefitting from their power? Because that is what happens when the Pig player tunnels you.
The timer stops. And if they crouch, then they are still not benefitting from their power because 2 1/2 minutes is usuall enough to tunnel someone out anyway. But more importantly, in these cases, both nerves have no impact. You don't need to see auras, if you won't let up from that survivor anyway and 30 seconds extra time don't mean anything when the timer is paused or that survivor dies before the 2 1/2 minutes are over.
This only affects people that played smart. Meaning, you chased different survivors and only engaged in short chases with trapped ones to get them away. Or you give them even more things to do like unhooking, which can happen if you manage to keep the other 3 busy. But now you won't benefit from that anymore as long as you aren't using UW to find the trapped survivor because you have no indication where to go. Before that, you'd be able to keep track of them mentally (you knew where they would go) and come at them when it's convenient.
oh, I couldn’t care less how people play Pig. I’m merely stating the most common way I’ve seen her played & asking if that specific strategy has been removed. If the developers don’t actively prohibit it (by game design features or their ‘rules’) then anything is fair game here.
edit: someone just above me insinuated that the strategy is legit and should exist. lol. It’s very antithetical to what you’ve said and it’s just interesting to see two killer mains with diametrically opposed attitudes about this killer character.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669898#Comment_3669898
I‘m not tunneling people, it‘s just normal to patrol boxes and most times people just stay there and ignore you completely and give a free hook.
It‘s not tunneling, when they refuse to heal and I already chased someone else.
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669898#Comment_3669898
48 maps with 5 boxes each. That's 240 box placements that you'd need to learn (as of now). Yeah, I can definitely see how that is realistically achievable.
If you tunnel someone with a RBT, then you play tunneling M1 killer. Your power doesn't do anything in that case, so that was never an issue. But she could keep track of survivor movements before to harass them at a box. That is now no longer realistically possible and it takes away a lot of her power.
But hey, at least UW still works on her and now there is even more of a reason to use it.
The most common way I’ve seen this killer played is by putting on the RBT, hooking, then harassing the unhooked survivor while they tried to remove the trap until their head exploded.. usually by slugging them. Has this strategy changed..?
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@GeneralV said:
As @mikewelk said, you can either crouch or stand still to avoid detection by the drones. You don't get detected while doing a gen, but if you let go then there is a risk.
In chase, she is not unlike Artist. If she places a drone in the area you'rte currently looping her, you have to leave. Otherwise you will get hit. Drones cannot put you in the dying state, but they can damage you.
I've noticed the more experienced Skull Merchants (judging by prestige level) will try to place their drones in strategic locations, so it is best to pay attention to where they are.
I had the same thought. She’s got great anti-loop so if she places a drone at a loop it’s best to leave it.