Ayodam
Ayodam
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1.) How many variants of the swamp map exist?
2.) What distinguishes them from one another?
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663591#Comment_3663591
They did release stats on that however I don’t remember where Midwhich stood on kill rates. I’d imagine it was probably on the higher side if I was guessing though. I would say that even if something was better in kill rates then most others that doesn’t inherently imply it’s less balanced, it just means it’s deadlier than the others. Hypothetically deadlier than all the rest could still be balanced if the others it’s being compared to are very unbalanced in the other direction. If that all made sense.
If I remember correctly it was the most killer-sided map in the game (highest kill rates) with Dead Dog Saloon maybe just behind it.
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@KerJuice said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659132#Comment_3659132
Yes, I’m exactly like you and have the same experience. I’m not a fan of lobby dodging either, but it’s frustrating knowing the system will use you as filler after “X” amount of que time has passed. I too can take my losses, but I prefer fairer matches where the killer outplayed me and my team of similar skill, rather than newbies giving up or making rookie mistakes. After games like those, it makes me question how many players before me were smart enough to dodge that lobby? A lot of times everyone will be readied up, including killer- and the lobby timer is shorter after I join. That indicates to me that players before me were leaving the lobby after seeing prestiged 4 masked Meg. 🤣
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658879#Comment_3658879
lol you make a good point. They say the middle class is shrinking/being eliminated IRL, so a fair comparison could be intermediate killers in DBD? 🤔
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658871#Comment_3658871
My post history on this forum shows that I've been very anti-lobby dodging and frequently thrown my support behind BHVR doing something to stop it. They haven't really shown much concern about it beyond doing some small tests last year that we haven't heard anything about, so I've reached the point where I feel if BHVR are not bothered by it then I'm not gonna be bothered by it either. The last few days I've been lobby dodging and picking my team mates and honestly, I've had a much better experience. Escape rate hasn't changed, which is fine, just the quality of the matches I'm getting are so much more enjoyable. It's only been a couple days so it could just be a fluke at this point but I'm gonna test it out a bit more and see. Do you find the same sort of thing when you do it?
I don’t think it’s fair that newbie survivors take the blame for terrible games, or that veteran players avoid them. The prestige 4 Meg with a mask may have a killer who lobby shopped until they found her lobby (quite likely). Newbies need space to learn but can’t learn if they’ve got a killer who lobby shopped for an easy game turbo tunneling them at 5 gens. I understand you both to be frustrated with subpar teammates but I think it’s important to shift the blame where it rightfully belongs. That isn’t on newbies
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@KardanBustum said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663660#Comment_3663660
I dont think that new original power (there is no mimics in DBD) would be less interesting than combo of copied power which already exist. By the way Behaviour know how to make original stuff. And they could make mimic power in original way. But for some reason they didnt
So they originally wanted Legion to function as a mimic-based character but I believe it was stated that it couldn’t work due to SWF? And I’d guess that’s also why it can’t work with UVX.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663566#Comment_3663566
It goes exactly the same for killers and I have said as much before. As a beginner you are gonna eat a lot of losses and be on the receiving end of a lot of bad games purely for the fact of being new an inexperienced.
It just happens to be more pronounced for survivor because it results in elimination, which is much more terminally abrupt for a player than a killer who gets to remain in game and have an impact even if doing poorly. Which is likely why the survivor version sounds exacerbated given the larger interruption to the game that elimination is compared to a lack of hooks/kills.
No one is saying that players have to be cannon-fodder for the other side and subjective takes like that can, and have, been made by players on either side about each other depending on which camp they conform to.
My point is that there is an extreme difference between saying "this is going to be really hard at first" and setting expectations compared to saying "this is going to be hard and miserable and stay hard and miserable and never get better".
Two things all new players should expect from DBD
- Survivor is an elimination game you will get eliminated a lot, sometimes harshly.
- Killer is a time management crunch if you don't manage the time well then survivors will run circles around you and it can drag on.
Both these things are countered by experience and that takes time. If my friend wants to play with me I'll take the time with them and we'll try to have fun, which can increase as we improve. I'm not going to constantly moan at them how bad it is because I want them to play and that may require my enthusiasm to override more perceptively negative aspects of the game.
Aside from you taking shots at Pulsar’s take (which I get it, you disagree) this was a very thoughtful and acceptable response. Thank you.
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@Blueberry said:
Midwich for both sides.
Contrary to popular opinion I think indoor maps are healthier for the game. Doesn’t encourage hold W game play, the loops tend to be better balanced, they’re stronger maps for some of the weaker killers and worse for some of the better ones, and finally they all tend to play uniquely from one another whereas most outdoors maps tend to play the same with just a different splash of paint on it.
I find Midwich particularly to be more aesthetically pleasing than the others and I like how it plays for both sides. Some of the more balanced chases too.
Didn’t the devs release stats last year that showed Midwich has the highest kill rate in the game?
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663469#Comment_3663469
There is realism and then there is pessimism and they get confused a lot.
"Except it's not fun, even when you have the hang of it." - Pessimism.
"I'm not going to lead them on by telling them it gets better when it doesn't" - Pessimism
"You can be tunneled even at 6k hours" - Realism it's possible to be "tunneled" in any game regardless of hours.
"they will always get tunneled and it won't change" - Pessimism, they won't always be tunneled that's just absolutist rot.
"They don't like getting BM'd" Realism - "but external harassment is practically a given with this community." - Pessimism external harassment exists but is not guaranteed.
"tunneling gets more efficient and Killers run better perks with more oppressive powers." Realism - players do get better at strong tactics and unlock better perks as they progress, but so do survivors... however you prefix and frame the point in Pessimism - "The game is profoundly unfun for new players and I will not lie to them. It doesn't get better"
If I was a new player and you said to me, lets play DBD and then framed your experience like that... I would be dissuaded too. We haven't even got to the game yet. When you play with your friends part of their positive, and/or negative, play experience is their interaction with you and that is on you.
So whenever the topic of survivor gameplay experience comes up, especially when it’s about how the game affects new or lower MMR survivors, there’s always some variant of this opinion/attitude that survivors need to embrace that they’re going to face unfun game mechanics wherein they have virtually no autonomy.
It’s like there’s this push to normalize survivor players basically functioning as player-controlled NPCs or canon-fodder. But what’s interesting—and I’ve noticed this numerous times here—is that this position is never presented when new or low MMR killers share their frustrations regarding gameplay experiences.
So I’ve always wondered why survivors have to suck it up, deal with it, pretend they’re having fun, change their outlook (be positive, ‘find the fun’, so on and so forth), and accept the nonsense but killers are never encouraged to do this. Their concerns are quite often met with empathy and validation. And while I’m not saying you’re the mouthpiece for any group of people, what I’ve also noticed is that you suggest survivor players rethink how they approach the game in terms of fun. So I’m curious to know what your thoughts are behind this.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663109#Comment_3663109
But its apparently getting worse. As in more and more killers use this tactic. Maybe we´ve reached the point of no return and thats just how the game is now.
Kinda unfun for both sides.
I’m going to be candid—I don’t believe tunneling is worse. It has always been optimal to tunnel out the ‘weakest’ survivor ASAP. I think because survivors are less distracted (no boons, no hexes, no healing, no items worth searching for, maps shrinking with weak pallets and dead zones growing so chases aren’t lasting as long either) they’re more focused on the macro-game elements and this highlights how impactful tunneling 1 person out early truly is. Tunneling isn’t necessarily more intense or prevalent than it has ever been, it’s just there’s been a perfect storm of changes that now leaves survivor players with little else to pay attention to.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662661#Comment_3662661
Greenville not only has loops with guaranteed hits. Not even for ranged killers. In my 10+ games that i played on the ptb, i have seen various pallets and loops on the map. There are many rock loops that offer mindgames without being guaranteed hits, 3 pallets at the statue that are pretty strong and can be chained, a shack that again is by no means a guaranteed hit and yes some weak pallets. Additionally, the map is pretty big, this helps the survivor-team. Not the killer. All around, this seems pretty balanced to me.
To conclude, i have two questions for you:
- What do you consider a fair map / a fair tile?
- Do you think a killer- or a survivor favoured map is more healthy for the game?
An example of a map I believe to be pretty balanced is Coal Tower. I’d go on to say most of the maps of that realm are decently fair for both roles. Second up would be the Crotus Penn maps. Third would be the Auto Haven maps. The rest are all over the place.
I think balanced maps like the aforementioned are healthiest for the game. But with that being said, map designs must take into consideration the majority of killers have anti-loop abilities now and that teleport mechanics are increasingly more common. That’s going to be difficult to balance around, obviously, but it’s an important thing to do.
I do want to point out that it’s disingenuous to identify balanced maps for killers because not all killers can be played with the same strategies. Lery’s, for instance, is great for GF and Myers and pretty much any stealth killer but it’s awful for Huntress, Trickster, and other ranged killers. Survivors suffer against the first class of killers (stealth) on this map but perform well against the second (ranged).
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662964#Comment_3662964
We are still arguing, because Ruin on its own was to weak. Especially with how bad the totem spots are. Equip 4 Hex perks and watch half of them vanish before you even find the first survivor. The spawns have become ridiculous easy to find. Undying was necessary, because it gave Ruin a longer live span. Current Undying isn´t really worth it. Despite being good for Hex perks like Devour. Simply because of the bad spawn points. I could argue that things would improve a lot, if the spawn points were actually hidden and survivors had to spend time searching them.
But the combination of bad spawns + weak perk effect = no one taking hex perks.
Per definition, Hex perks are supposed to be high risk, high reward perks. But the reward part is completely missing. Only flaw the original Undying had, was the aura reading. Take that + the remembering stacks away. Then go back to the point where it could revive a hex 3 times. Otherwise it just stays as a meh perk.
Spawns really need an overhaul. The game feels faster, because survivors don´t spend any time searching totems. They spawn next to a gen and do said from the first second. There is no secondary objective that takes time away from survivors. So killers stick to applying pressure. Getting someone out early, applies pressure. Its a direct result of an attempt to slow everything down. Do i like it? No, but thats just how more and more killers work.
I’d like to point out that killers have stuck to ‘applying pressure’ (which I presume you mean by way of tunneling) since time immemorial. Even during the EruptOverBrine meta killers were ‘applying pressure’ without any need for it. Suggesting that slowing down survivors will somehow stop killers from ‘applying pressure’ is far fetched. Reality doesn’t bear that out at all.
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This doesn’t make sense. If bad survivors are dropping in MMR how are they being ranked with really good survivors? Even if we consider that matches prioritize queue times the difference in skill levels still can’t be that extreme.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662908#Comment_3662908
"I feel like I’ve had to work hard to convince my friends this game isn’t as bad as it is. But the lie can only carry so far."
And this is why BHVR should really work on this. New player retention is abysmal, even to our friends lol.
Yeah, it is. And the friends I meet in other games are like “I’ve heard of that game, I’m good lol.” It’s tough to get new people into it and even harder to convince them to stay (as survivor at least. Dunno about killer)
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661932#Comment_3661932
I also have to do gens and bring a super medkit.
There's only so many hits I can take for them though.
And at the end of the trial when they’re looking at you like “ 😒🤨” do you find yourself saying “I promise it’s NOT always like that!” ? I feel like I’ve had to work hard to convince my friends this game isn’t as bad as it is. But the lie can only carry so far.
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@awustzdn said:
He'll be around the bottom tier. Lackluster power that takes 3 hits, with the required first hit able to be cleansed mid-chase. He has the weaknesses of Ghostface's reveal mechanic, Nemesis's 3 hitting, an awkward projectile that does NOTHING on a DIRECT hit which is so dumb of BHVR, without any of the benefits of any other killer besides automatically-placed Sadako TVs that can be turned off quickly and easily and come with a huge cooldown and, once again, do not have any benefit besides some mediocre map mobility.
He's an overcomplicated mess with no real strengths, just like Singularity. Everything he does can be done a lot better by a more specialized killer.
What do you think of Dredge? Why is that killer so rare?
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662614#Comment_3662614
Don't forget that BHVR has been adding invisible walls everywhere, because they don't like it when people find ways to get on top of objects which only hurts ranged killers ability to snipe.
uhh—that hurts survivors’ ability to cheese killers by making them fall into holes or off ledges without landing a hit. lol. Survivors were the ones who could easily exploit that. Not killers…
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661907#Comment_3661907
I think a pallet should offer gameplay from both sides. Many safe pallets become a break simulator. The killer has to force the pallet to break it. No hit, just the pallet.
I'm not a fan of that. Jungle gyms are safe but fine because they (for the most part) allow mindgames and therefore a chance of getting a hit.
What type of pallet would you want? I see that the map offers a good amount of gameplay. If this is the standart of calling a map killer sided, then I do think we might have a problem.
But the pallets/loops on Greenville don’t offer play for both sides. They not very mind gameable; they all but guarantee a hit for killers, especially killers with ranged attacks. So yeah it’s a killer-sided map. Not sure why I should pretend otherwise. It’s normal that a map favors one side or the other, and this isn’t the first or only killer-sided map in the game.
I personally like a mixture of strong and weak tiles. I don’t like maps with weak filler pallets or dead zones. I think Greenville offers good hiding spots (kinda) but I know that isn’t a playstyle anyone really likes here.
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@OneAutumnLeaf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662233#Comment_3662233
tbh it either needs to have 4 stacks then deactivate after its used or ONLY regen in chase and start at 1 stacks. starting fully stacked is unfair asf to peopl only running 1-2 aura perk
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661796#Comment_3661796
from a game design standpoint its totally unfair and unbalanced.
It would be unbalanced if it prevented killers from tracking survivors at all. It doesn’t hide scratch marks, blood pools, or grunts of pain. And it doesn’t block killer instinct either.
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@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/406666/survivors-what-are-some-of-the-good-loops
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PZHWWXYF6VSL/images-282-29.jpeg
This pallets is literally an infinite if you know how to run it..
Explain.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661220#Comment_3661220
If I play with my friends who are new, they get put up against experienced Killers who identify them and tunnel them out ASAP.
If I do not play with them, they get tunneled out by Killers near their own MMR.
Do you get the feeling that when you’re playing with friends who are new, you’ve got to play super aggressively (keep aggro/pull chase) to keep them from being tunneled out? And along with that you might also need to get saves and heal them?
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661804#Comment_3661804
Everyone is saying Greenville's pallet loops are weak but I'm curious how effective it is to chain them together since there seems to be so many of them.
Subpar. The tiles can’t be chained efficiently because they’re impeded by obstacles. But even so they’re very short so chaining isn’t really worth while. I think this map is meant to encourage hiding or a more reserved playstyle, it seems better for that. It has a shack similar to GoJ’s though, I think it always spawns in like a remote corner.
@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661804#Comment_3661804
Both are pretty big with lots of loops and gens on the outskirts. That delays most killers a lot and helps survivors a lot that spread out. Also, i saw a lot of good pallets on Greenville square. The main building can rotate, offering a really strong pallet that can lean to the building. Otherwise, there is a shack. Thats what i consider not only a strong tile, but a completely unfair one for every m1 oriented killer.
Most of the tiles are pretty fair to play as m1, which is what i like to see. Seems like a good map to me. Sorry, if you disagree, but that has been my experience on the ptb.
You’re right, it’s large. But the tiles are weak; the pallets are unsafe. And while I like the pallet in main (in the theater, you mean?) it’s also weak. You can’t even escape the room if the killer breaks it and you’re closest to the screen before the killer catches up with you. Gods forbid you face a projectile killer because it’s over. I agree about shack but I think all but 2 maps have a shack. The ones that don’t (Lery’s and Gideon) compensate in other ways. Greenville has a lot of good hiding spots and decent LoS blockers in the woods that could help throw a killer off. But this isn’t a balanced map, it’s killer-sided and that’s OK.
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@Blueberry said:
I mean the killer doesn’t want the last survivor to get a free pity escape for no reason when he won and that last survivor wants his chance at the free pity escape.
They both equally could choose to end the match earlier if they wanted so I don’t see why it’s more focused negatively towards the killer when they are both at fault.
At least the killer has the stance that he’s basically won the game since they’re at that point to begin with meaning they’re doing it because they feel like they’ve earned the 4K. While the survivor hasn’t earned it since they’ve essentially lost, it’s a pity win for them. I’d be more likely to blame the last survivor hiding and waiting for the hatch than I would the killer.
If the end game was less of a “I won but I’m still forced to play a 50/50 of whether I get the 4K I earned” you’d see less killers slug like that. This is why I don’t mind getting slugged in this scenario, the killer doing it makes sense. Imagine if we 4 escaped as survivors with the killer getting zero hooks but right as the last survivor is running out he’s forced to flip a coin of whether he dies and the killer gets a free kill just..because. That sounds silly right? That’s what hatch is.
But you didn’t earn a 4K. If you didn’t kill the last survivor you didn’t earn a 4K. Hatch exists because this is an assym game and survivors need an incentive to play through the end. Other assym games don’t have a hatch but contain similar mechanics. None of them have it where if you defeat 3/4 of the opposing players you’ve won so the 4th is just served to you on a platter. That sounds silly.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661810#Comment_3661810
To be fair, the bodyblock stuff that people have now invented as a problem with pre-6.1 DS was a legitimate issue with Endurance stacking, so it's fair that it got removed.
But it's still BHVR trying to reinvent the wheel, ending up with an exploding hexagon and going 'that'll do'. Why they haven't reverted some of the dumbest nerfs by now is anyone's guess.
(But they did revert the one good nerf on Ruin for the double whammy of failure)
Yaa, the bodyblocking was awful. And yes the mechanic deserved retooling. But can you really say what made it through in its place is any better? Seems anti-tunneling just became zero sum in the end. My guess is they aren’t reverting nerfs (to survivor things anyway) because they’re content with their stats.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659722#Comment_3659722
It’s always been best practice to turn the match into a 3v1 ASAP (for killers)
I think DS did put a dent in that, back when it was still a thing.
It was a discouragement, but I guess BHVR hoped endurance could somehow work better. And it would have if it stacked like it did in PTB (but killers complained about that).
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@radiantHero23 said:
Some are good, some are bad. I think nostromo wreckage and the new map that is coming seem to be in a good spot to me. Garden of Joy is still an outlier.
The most problematic map in the game for me, is still the Gideon meat plant. Either unfairly great for killer or unfairly good for survivor. The loop design on this map together with its layout don't leave anything in between. This map needs serious attention and im suprised that it's not a usual but rather rare topic of discussion.
Nostromo and Greenville Square are full of weak loops and unsafe pallets. What makes those good spots? I’m just curious.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661518#Comment_3661518
It's not an edge case in the slightest. I've only escaped four times in the last week and each time we were down a survivor at 1 or 2 gens. That was also pretty common before I took a break and had a roughly 45% escape rate. You're exaggerating the one in chase, one on hook, one rescuing scenario.
As for what number is fair that's what testing by BHVR would be for so they could change the numbers to acheive their desired kill rate.
Am I though? How can you know—because you escaped 4 times in the last week and each time you were down a survivor with 1 or 2 gens remaining? Interesting… What do you think my experience has been? Does it count or is yours the litmus?
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Distortion is decent but somehow not in the top 10 survivor perks. I don’t personally see it as game breaking either way (as killer or survivor).
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Survivor main here. 🙋🏻♀️ No, solo queue is not the easiest it has ever been. Not by a long shot. It was easier before the healing nerfs, and the nerf to DS, and the innate killer buffs (basically all of 6.1.0), and the nerfs to all but 6 META survivor perks (that may be on the chopping block now), and the huge influx of anti-loop killers, and the new 3-gen killers (Knight, Skull Merchant), and the individual buffs to already strong killers (Huntress, Hillbilly), and the revamped maps that are smaller/condensed and spawn way more dead zones & unsafe pallets, and killers clueing in to the fact that turning the game into a 3v1 ASAP is the shortest path to victory.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660865#Comment_3660865
300% sounds very hyperbolic. If that were true then 3 survivors left at 1 or 2 gens would be impossible and a guaranteed 4K. That's not the case at all.
What do you think is a fair number? Remember, it needs to give survivors a good chance at completing all gens after one teammate has been tunneled out.
Since you used an edge case example I’ll do the same: 3 survivors alive with 4-5 gens remaining. One is presumably occupying the killer so you really have two survivors working to complete 4-5 gens. If a second survivor is hooked now you’ve got potentially one survivor responsible for up to 5 gens at best, one going for the save (or dealing with the killer), and at worse not one of those three survivors able to work gens because one of three is now hooked, one is in chase with killer, and one is going for the save. And that is a very real scenario.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660277#Comment_3660277
Yeah but people running/chasing into the killer be ruled as griefing and then get a temp ban. Bhvr with their "we dont want to assum anything" means you cant report people who suicide on first hook. You can't fix it but at LEAST punish people for it.
To be fair survivors do accidentally run into the killer, pursue killers when trying to get different kinds of saves, or to impede killers from downing another survivor (like body-blocking a hook, trying to take aggro, etc). And since BHVR can’t determine intent they’d have to blanket restrict survivors who did those things in case they are ‘grieving’. I know you’ll say “well that’s different! You can SEE they are trying to play!” because you want to defend your take, but that won’t work. Because it circles back to… interpreting intent. :)
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Most of the pallets are unsafe but it’s large and has some decent hiding spots. I think killers will hate its size but love the weak loops.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660190#Comment_3660190
For a Killer, that's perfect! To survive as a team mate, it's less the truth people refuse to admit and more the lie people want to believe.
Yeah! But Yun-Jin the survivor is saying that the solitary, self-preservation playstyle is viable whether other survivors like it or not. Other survivors can be teammates but they can also be tools for one’s own use. When other survivors escape while you die, after all, do you gain MMR, bloodpoints, or emblems? No. You don’t. Conversely you don’t lose these things when they die but you escape either. Frankly, I don’t know any team games on or offline that rewards only part of the team for achieving a goal. 🤷🏽♀️
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660838#Comment_3660838
It makes it better and numbers can be tweaked.
It would need to be around 300% to make up for the loss of a teammate. Even then the killer isn’t idle after one survivor dies. So theoretically you’d have two survivors potentially completing up to 5 gens. Once the third survivor is hooked, now you’ve got one survivor attempting to complete those remaining gems. That is still a hopeless situation. I can’t see any killer mains supporting a system like this, even if the penalty is like 300% or some such before the first survivor dies.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
It's just like that Deight quote, which rings true: "We have to work as a team! I need you to survive so that I can survive!".
Understanding and using the HUD better does improve on the experience. It helps with the flow and - when all Survivors are onboard - the trial can be absolutely amazing to play!
It's also about knowing when to get involved with chases and when to pick up the slack. If someone is on their last hook and I've not taken any, if I know where they are I will always take the chase. The longer you keep 4 players in, the greater the chances of escaping (obviously!!).
A better tutorial will help, as well as players working more altruistically, at least up until the later stages. A fair few players get involved with a non-altruistic build or mentality, which can cost games heavily. Whilst SWFs do do better with communication, a lesser mentioned reason is altruism and taking the slack. Granted, too much of it can result in a #########-storm, but at the same time it can work more often than not.
Conversely, there’s also Yun-Jin:
"The weak are sacrificed first. It's nature, it's business... it's the truth most refuse to face." — Yun-Jin Lee
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@concubined said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659782#Comment_3659782
Oh I love you already, spot on
So you aren’t really looking for answers; you’re seeking validation. Why not phrase the topic as such? “I’m not looking for answers or discussion, I want an echo chamber where what I think is right is validated by others.” You could have saved a lot of people’s keystrokes here.
The 4% exists to twist up the knickers of people who despise any sort of survivor agency.
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I think a solo queue becomes bearable once you’ve risen out of low MMR. If you’re in mid to upper mid MMR you’re likely to encounter a plurality of teammates more competent at the game than newbies or extreme casuals, who are in low MMR. Doesn’t mean you’ll win every match, but it’s nevertheless going to make a big difference in how comfortable your trials feel.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654325#Comment_3654325
The reason it was present in each of those asymmetrical games, is because it is an inherent property of asymmetrical games that win rate does not equal kill rate.
You're mistaking correlation for causation. Just becsuse "all asym games have an unbalanced kill rate, doesn't mean that's the reason why "all asym games besides DbD have died".
It may however be a factor that "asym games are less appealing because they're inherently imbalanced".
The difference with those games and this one is that their kill rates were generally much higher than what would have been permissible for a win rate (however they defined that) of 50/50. The setup works for DBD because a 60% kill rate still averages out to like a 50% win rate (approximately).
But with games like Evolve and Death Garden, their ‘kill’ rates were much higher than 60%.
This led gamers to avoid playing the survivor & hunter roles respectively, which killed those games. I believe BHVR works to keep DBD as balanced as they can but it’s a tough job. I also think the kill rate needs to be around where it is now so that the win rate is near even between sides.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657864#Comment_3657864
Again, yes there are times when the games basically over like someone dead at 5 gens with little progress, but there's also plenty of times where the game is well within winnable and survivors just nope out.
Like 1-2 hooks and 3 gens are about to pop or only 1 gen is left.
I’m sure they happen, but I personally never see these situations. They seem really far flung. What I more often encounter is that if one gives survivors even the slightest opportunity to turn a game around, they will pounce on it. Survivors are not merciful toward killer mistakes (nor should they be). But they don’t really give up immediately as much as people claim, either.
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@Chaosrider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659543#Comment_3659543
So basically for each are killers at fault. Crying that survivors actually did heal was OP, Boons were OP. Just hexes were never much of a deal at all. Old ruin just got powered through. So nothing really changed, just that killers got buffed, survivors got nerfed and killer strategies are worse than ever, cause devs are ignorant on that matter for whatever reason.
No one is really at fault. The most efficient way for each side to play is by completing as much of their objective as they can posthaste. It’s a loop with no beginning (cause) or end (solution). Because if you nerf either side to where they’re slower completing the task necessary to achieve their objective, the other side becomes too oppressive. As soon as a trial starts survivors and killers are in a race to the bottom. And nothing has really changed about killer or survivor strategies in that regard. It’s always been best practice to turn the match into a 3v1 ASAP (for killers) or knock out at least 2 gens before first hook (for survivors).
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@Chaosrider said:
How could the games have become faster as gentimes got increased and we have the worst possible regression meta?
Because survivors aren’t healing, they aren’t lighting boons, and they aren’t cleansing hexes. They’re focused on completing gens fast because killers are trying to turn matches into 3v1s quickly, which also makes sense.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659026#Comment_3659026
I get what you’re saying but by the very definition the devs gave us, 2 out 2 dead is a draw for both sides. Yes, the 2 survivors that got out “win” in MMR but the overall match outcome for survivor is a draw.
At the end of the day survivors live or die by their teammates actions, the games still a 4v1, not a 1v1v1v1v1 regardless of how MMR treats it. You can run the killer for 10 minutes straight but you’re not getting out unless your teammates help you. So why would the survivors target mark for escape percentage not be 62.5%, 2.5 escapes on average per game?
You really aren’t as dependent on teammates as you think. You can play for yourself and escape, you can even contribute toward other survivor’s potential escape while doing so. I do it often enough to call it a viable strategy. And it isn’t just MMR; the individuality of survivor wins (and losses) is reflected in bloodpoint distribution & emblem awards as well. But the most important signifier of survivor victory is MMR. I can’t really think of any assym games that deviate from this formula either, so it isn’t something BHVR invented.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658632#Comment_3658632
Why is the survivors target mark not also 62.5%? 2 kills 2 escapes is considered a draw for both sides. Why would the killers target mark be 2.5 kills per game average, aka a win on average, while the survivors target mark would be 2 escapes on average, otherwise a draw on average? I get the game is assym and you need to account for that but this just doesn’t make any sense to me.
Not saying I think it should be this way or is even possible, but I’m just not following your logic.
It’s not actually a draw for both sides. Two survivors win, two lose, and Huntress wins two micro-matches but loses two (so she may obtain some emblems but not all, she’ll likely break even with MMR b/c killers gain and lose MMR by each survivor they kill or fail to kill, respectively).
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658619#Comment_3658619
If you see my first post in this topic, you'll see that yes, survivors aren't making their ideal win rate (50% escape rate), but neither are killers making their ideal win rate either (62.5% kill rate/37.5% escape rate).
The discrepancy is because a survivors win rate is identical to their escape rate, but a killers win rate is not the same as their kill rate. A 50% win rate for killers is a 62.5% kill rate.
So many grievances with this game are down to it's asymmetrical format, yet the complaints seem to completely ignore it as a factor.
I actually touched on that in a subsequent comment. You’re right.
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@sinkra said:
I'm still asking how can 50/50 be considered unbalanced?
I think it can’t work in a game like this because survivors aren’t actually a team; they’re four individual players graded distinctly on their performance activities (emblems, MMR, bloodpoint distribution).
Think of it this way: the game is like [Meg vs David vs Claudette vs Vittorio] vs Huntress. The survivors can contribute toward a common goal they share (escape) but at the end of the day they are rewarded or punished for their own individual escape.
Huntress is rewarded for each individual survivor she kills (MMR increases, blood points, emblems). She’s not punished for killing all four survivors (as a team because they technically aren’t) because she’s essentially playing a 4-in-1 match. So to create an aggregate win rate of 50/50 would mean each individual survivor has a 50/50 chance of escaping the match against her. This would factor out to an aggregate kill rate (total amount of 2.5-3Ks she averages) of around 60%.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658254#Comment_3658254
absolutely. it came out too safe. at least on ptb...
but watch the pendulum swing and suddenly the perk will become an issue because a buff made it worth it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658260#Comment_3658260
that is what was suggested. small downside, small benefit. (also, just run overzealous)
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658272#Comment_3658272
Maybe not. BHVR didn’t buff the teamwork perks in any meaningful way. We haven’t seen any other perks like them because survivors don’t pick them. They’re a dead mechanic now. Devs also introduced a new boon perk no one uses to try and reignite some interest in boons. But those are also a mechanic survivors ignore these days. Devs don’t really have to do much with Weaving Spiders (or create any other invocation for that matter) because survivors have zero faith in them being useful and will ignore them when they release.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658586#Comment_3658586
"The best players will win the majority of their games. That's how it should be"
In DBD, the AVERAGE killer wins the majority of their games. Not the best, the AVERAGE. In contrary, the best survivors don't win the majority of their games, unless they're top 1% in 4-man SWFs, that's what the charts say. Have you seen them?
Even if the survivor players are top MMR they’re still escaping less than 50% of the time, let alone winning the majority of their games. I was kind of surprised by this. High MMR survivors aren’t even breaking even with killers when it comes to winning.
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It’s a failure but I see the vision. I’d rather it suck so we aren’t inundated with threads about how ‘broken’ it is. It’s a shame because they want survivors to run these perks and use these tactics but they don’t incentivize them. Innovation is much easier to create with killers. But yeah instead of these perks and this mechanic survivors won’t use because they’re woefully underpowered the devs could have put the work into something that actually improves the survivor experience.
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@Smoe said:
ADS: the devs got rid of his instacscope to increase “skillful” gameplay, so I see no reason as to why he can’t have more control while aiming.
That's not the reason why they got rid of it, the reason it was removed was because killers would constantly spam m2 while in chase which resulted in Survivors being put into lose-lose situations.
It got so bad that it reached the point where people complained about Deathslinger on an almost daily basis on the forum until it got changed.
Can you describe for @woundcowboy why the quick ADS created lose-lose scenarios for survivors?
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657862#Comment_3657862
If you think TED was decently balanced, there’s nothing else to say. There are tons of exploits that gave the survivor side huge advantages. The game died because those devs listened to the survivor majority and people stopped playing demon. TCM definitely favors victims, but it is overall much better balanced than most asyms.
I stand by my statement: TED was fairly balanced between roles especially near the middle and end of its life. I will however add that micro play was a large component of what it took to succeed in the Demon role. And micro-gameplay in a DM-type role isn’t an easy skill to learn. That wasn’t a skill required to play the survivor role. But its presence doesn’t mean the game favored survivors.
TCM does not favor victims, especially since one has a team as killer oneself with powers diametrically opposed to everything the victims can do. I would agree it’s balanced.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656608#Comment_3656608
way too specific and your everyday match against a 3 genning killer will end up with survivors giving up anyway. you'll need a far gen people won't repair, and it's soloq people will rush to the main gen on dead dog so
True it’s probably not gonna save the day often. And yeah, you might wonder why this person doubled up on a gen with you when they could be on another gen making progress. But when PE comes in handy, it comes in clutch. And I just think it’s better to do it on a gen with another survivor because otherwise you’re kind of just wasting time playing with a dead gen.
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@Nazzzak said:
Just to add - hatch escapes aren't counted as escapes in game. They're considered null. So if you're comparing your escape rate to the devs stats, you need to take that into account.
Also matches where a survivor DCs nullify the match for all players. These matches don’t factor into kill or escape rates.