AsherFrost
AsherFrost
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@Laluzi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2723081#Comment_2723081
Look, I just don't know what to say to you at this point. We're going to have to agree to disagree. Letting survivors keep their item when they die isn't a Franklins nerf unless you run Franklins to make sure survivors can't keep their items, because I don't know how many times I've had to say this, but White Ward affects the outcome of the postgame, not the game itself. Survivors that want to use their item in game are going to keep going for it anyway. White Ward performing its function should not matter to you and I'm skeptical that you think forcing the survivor to throw the game in order to avoid an M1 hit is healthy design.
Item thief Hag isn't necessarily better? It really depends on the character of the team you're playing against. Franklins works by default because knocking the item out of their hand in the space of one chase, and hooking them afterwards, will be enough to neuter a medkit. Likely a flashlight as well, but two hits will definitely do it. You can afford not to care about what happens next, and if survivors want to retrieve their dead items repeatedly throughout the match, cool for them. Item thief Hag uses four of her ten traps to keep harassing dead items and it's a strategy that only gets value if the survivors are attached to their item and don't pick up on what you're doing. I'll trap a fresh medkit or flashlight to prevent a teammate from picking it up, but once they're drained, I don't care about what happens to the item and I've got better places I can use my traps.
Franklins is not a weak perk nor an underused perk, dude. It's the understood answer to stacked lobbies and items that counter the killer you're playing, and killers equip it reactively. If it's weak right now, it's because CoH has trumped medkits and you can't reliably counter healing anymore.
So you want white ward to always keep your item. That's the only change that would really do what you seem to be asking for.
Do you want it to always save the first item? What if you bring in a brown medkit, find a purple one in a toolbox, and drop it later to make a flashbang, which item should the game retrieve for you?
In fact, what would happen if survivors just dropped their items to make flashbangs, trade, etc.?
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@drakonukaris said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2722879#Comment_2722879
Survivors forfeiting immediately at the start of the game should be absolutely not allowed, but I think if the killer is holding the game hostage or there is a 3 gen with genuinely no hope of repairing or progressing it would be a nice option to have.
I play a lot of Rocket League and that game is toxic asf. Rocket League has a forfeit option that appears after about a minute and a half into the match and it works well, obviously it would have to be longer for DBD.
It's up to the devs though to decide how much time has to pass and what sort of conditions have to be met for you to be allowed to forfeit.
In my opinion this is urgently needed as this game is not being balanced at a reasonable pace and rather seems to get more unbalanced with every new survivor and killer release. I think you have to realize that this game is being turned into something most people don't care for, a sweaty broken mess. This game doesn't work competitively and most matches aren't fair, yet I have to see a casual game with DC penalties and yet I have to see a competitive game without a forfeit option. This in between a casual and competitive game stance ain't working.
One of the biggest reasons the forfeit works with Rocket League is because the teams each have the same number of players, so it always feels even. With the same system in DbD, you essentially end up where 4 people decide for 1 whether the game continues or not, which will never feel fair for the 1, even were they to give them max BP after.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721579#Comment_2721579
I don't even know what this sentence is supposed to mean.
I've read it 3 times now, I don't know if it's a translation thing, where English isn't the poster's first language or what, but I'm not sure either, hopefully they will clarify.
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@Carrow said:
I totally support it. The best times I've had in DBD were the ones when the DC penalty was off. It's just a game, stop trying to pretend we are making far reaching philosophical and moral changes that define our worths and will be remembered for the rest of eternity.
(Edited for typo)
What?
Seriously, the hell are you talking about? Nobody is claiming any of that. We would just like to enjoy playing the video game we've put so much time and money into.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2722029#Comment_2722029
Then you're playing to troll, not to win. No concessions should be made to styles of gameplay that are rooted in spiting other players. They're not healthy for the game to begin with and nothing of value would be lost were they to be removed.
Again: there isn't a valid reason to care about the other players keeping their items after the match. "I don't want them to because their tears are delicious" isn't a valid reason.
From the killer perspective no, there isn't. I won't see that survivor again (theoretically) or their item.
For BHVR, there absolutely is a compelling interest in keeping conditions that have you lose your item and go back to the bloodweb to try and get a new one.
Also, as noted repeatedly, Franklin's doesn't even eat items anymore, it removes charges if the item isn't picked back up in time. So let's say the change is implemented and they get the item franklin's made them drop, they now have an item with no charges. Super useful.
Really, to me it seems like people are just asking for a change to get something that feels good, rather than something that will help either the game as a whole or their own experience.
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@Unicorn said:
(speaking for myself)
I don’t have an issue with Killers camping/tunneling, however it doesn’t mean that I enjoy it. Its a waste of waiting in a lobby just to be camped/tunneled out of a game 2-3 mins in.
The Killers who do it and BM though will always bother me because its like… “cool, you’re killing me as you should, but why be a douche about it?”
That's where I'm at with it. I'm fine with people using whatever tactics to win, so long as they aren't dicks while they do it. Tunnel me out, sure, but why hit me on the hook?
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Can't be any of the licensed characters, they've all been beaten by powerless teens.
Can't be any of the original characters who are "touched" and see the survivors as their tormentors.
Can't be any of the characters that are canonically dead (plague, nurse, spirit) the entity is keeping them alive, so the minute they rebelled a snap of the tendrils and they're back to worm food.
That just leaves one, the most feared of all characters in the game.
The Meg
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719922#Comment_2719922
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719945#Comment_2719945
I'm not talking about punishing the killer. I'm talking about the way for survivors to just make it end without giving the bully the satisfaction - for example, getting an option to press the suicide button after some time of being downed or at least make some notification to let the douchebag know that the player is AFK and not here to participate in his masturbation session. I've never complained about camping or tunneling here or in the post-game chat. I don't teabag killers at the gate or even carry flashlights. But when it comes to slugging, I'd rather read a book or watch a video while waiting for my DC penalty to run out rather than stay in the game to entertain some pathetic sack of slime behind the keyboard.
You are not talking about punishing the killer, but the OP definitely is, which is what Raineh was probably referring to.
I agree, a "give up" button would absolutely be appreciated and appropriate. I don't think it's always about a power trip or even trolling. I've left a survivor on the ground before simply because I legit couldn't remember where I dropped them after chasing their friend down. A give up option would have saved us both the frustration of me wandering around trying to find them in the bushes for 3 minutes
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@CyberDragoon656 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720734#Comment_2720734
Like I said I do that however having it happen over and over and over when you much rather be going to the next game can wear on people after a while. Oh and thank god console doesn't have end-game chat cause that would just make it worse.
It absolutely can, and my best advice when it does is to play something else. There's nothing that can be implemented to stop jackass players from being jackasses, the best you can do is try and keep their jackassery from ruining your day.
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@CyberDragoon656 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720706#Comment_2720706
Like I said this is more you have no chance of winning. Such as for some reason all except one or two games when I have a bad match as killer there is always at least one survivor who stands there fully healed and next to the gate but wants to berate even more by wanting to bm at the gate so for most people they will just wait out the timer to get some points, however, there are times and I will admit this is when I dc is when they wait for the last second and I decided to say " screw it, the points are low the time is almost gone and they won't leave" so I take the dc. It sucks but it happens that's why I'm basically asking how often does it happen.
Then I let the other side have the victory they earned. If I was playing football and by the 4th quarter my team knew we were trounced, I would still take the field.
As to your specific example, when I get survivor players like that, I ignore them and go through the map looking for pallets to break and other things I can do to get a bit more BP, or I go to the shack, set the controller down and get a tasty treat.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720502#Comment_2720502
You mean like a mori (killer offering) counters a survivor perk like DS?
Mori only counters 2nd hook ds, 1st hook you still have it. Not much of a counter.
With the right key add-on you can counter knock out, insidious and more. Syringe counters slugging. Lightborn counters flashlights. Both sides get perks and items/offerings that counter the other side. Until today I've never even seen it claimed that perks shouldn't counter items or offerings on either side.
Now the way they've generally set it up, killer items (add-ons) are there to augment or adjust killer powers, while perks are there to strategize against what you think the survivor team will bring. That's not fair or unfair, just part of the design when only one side has powers. Survivors, having no unique abilities, have more of a mix of negating the other side and buffing your own when it comes to their perks and items/offerings.
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Playing survivor I've had games that seemed absolutely hopeless at the beginning turn into 4Es. As killer I've seen survivors pop 4 gens by my first hook just to find they 3 genned themselves without any help, and gave me the tools to get a victory.
On either side I tend to feel it unfair to the remaining players to just quit.
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@InnCognito said:
I REALLY enjoyed your post! Very well done!! Thank you!
In my humble opinion, I believe that camping players is very rewarding. especially with Bubba. The killer does 2 things. Hooks players and the option to MORI players with special hexes or offerings. So Yes, it is very rewarding to play this way.
Especially since Hatch no longer appears (in this patch) to spawn until 1 player remains. If the killer has BBQ and Chili (which the other player can only ASSUME, since there is no status effect notice). As well as stock up on Agitation, Iron grasp, BBQ and lightborn, plus a pledged offering of relocating the hatch. It could really be rewarding.
Another way is to sub out the BBQ and go with Whispers and swap that around with Iron grasp, if need be.
Right now, the most toxic thing to do is down a survivor is; Slug them, and then hover over them until their friends mount a rescue, and then leave everyone slugged until their timers run out. Which is an eternity.
If you are camping hooks with bbq equipped, you are doing it wrong. The aura reading is completely useless if you aren't going anywhere after getting the hook.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720655#Comment_2720655
I wish the developers would come out and say what they mean with "proxy-camping" and "face-camping", because like I said before, "face-camping" doesn't exist, after survivors are able to unhook survivors from the side.
The one thing that makes me believe "face-camping" is staying within a 6 meter radius is that the only test on the PTB to prevent "face-camping" failed because survivors would run around the survivor, preventing the dead timer from progressing. Which to me, indicates that "face-camping" is staying within a pretty tight area around a hooked survivor instead of just staring at the hooked survivor.
Yeah, pure facecamping, where the killer could hook you and go make a sandwich as long as he was stood in the gith spot was (thankfully) fixed long ago.
I think they went with the space around the hook (I think it may have actually been about 3m) because they just couldn't think of a better way to do it. There's no point of contact to code the game to look for, so unless they were going to put an invisible wall right in front of the hook that only affected killers, (which would also be broken and ensure free unhooks) they just don't have a ton of tools available for the issue.
With basement camping I would actually be more eager to see how the data works out with trapper. Bubba is a great defensive killer, which is why he's so proficient with all camping, but I really think Trapper is the uncrowned king of the basement, especially with the last changes they made a few weeks/months/time is a blur ago allowing him to start with his traps.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720606#Comment_2720606
3. The reason I kept bringing up facecamping specifically, is because that's what the OP claimed to be testing. That's why the idea of you walking away from a survivor didn't make any sense to me, that would, in my eyes, invalidate the round. To be fair that's because I tend to favor pristine test/data sets for any sort of long term study.
I think definitions are important and I see where you are coming from. Face-camping originally was defined as standing in front of the survivor to prevent other survivors from unhooking them. Now days that doesn't exist, so I've always understood the term Face-camping to have changed to being within close proximity of the hooked survivor.
Proxy-camping, I've always understood to be a Killer that goes in and out of terror radius, or 32 meters of the survivor or stays slightly outside 32 meters until someone comes to unhook them.
Camping to me, is either a general term to describe both proxy-camping and face-camping.
I think maybe we should get some definitions down to understand what we are talking about.
What I'm talking about, would best be described as I had before. If you think about the killer shack basement, then what I'm doing is basically staying within range of the perimeter of the basement walls as compared to the hook in the center. I would say it's about a 6 meter perimeter to the hook. I'm fine with calling that whatever term you want. I wouldn't say it's camping because camping has always been a generalized term for all forms of camping.
Thank you for understanding.
I think if you are going to try and run tests, it would be better to make sure that everyone, both running and observing, is aware of the exact thing you are attempting to test.
Facecamping, especially with bubba still happens (had a match earlier today where I got to spend quite a bit of time appreciating the work that went into bubba's mask design, actually) so I thought that's what you meant. What you are describing I have always had defined by myself, friends who play and conversations here, as proxy camping, which the devs want to keep in, or more specifically, basement camping, which I believe they want to keep, but don't have first hand evidence for that, and am really just going by perk and hook design.
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@dictep said:
I have 4.500 hours as surv in this game. When I play against killers that only get 2 or 3 hooks during the match I know he is using noed. Noed is the reason why trash killers with 100 hours play against me. So yes, noed is not a balanced perk and should be changed or removed
1. The mmr doesn't look at whether a killer has noed before matching him with survivors of the same skill level. If you are consistently getting baby killers, that's not on them.
2. 4500 hours on survivor, still haven't learned the totem spawns?
How many hours on killer? Or are you one of those who prefers to play 50% of the game they paid for in full?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720516#Comment_2720516
Except we weren't.
We were fairly even and without NOED proc'ing, we likely would've had at least a 2 man escape, if not 3.
There was no time to cleanse totems, that's what I'm getting at. NOED's counterplay is unreasonable for the boost it gives to Killers.
Racoon beat me to it.
Yeah, you were outplayed. You weren't "fairly even" he'd already gotten most of his hooks in prior to noed activating, and again, did it with literally nothing but 2 different types of gen slowdown that don't actually work together.
Without NOED, he would have had an extra perk slot to put in bbq, nurses, or any of a dozen other perks that would have helped him find and catch you sooner.
This actually reminds me of an otz video I was watching to try and learn trapper. He staked out and trapped half the map, but didn't pressure any of the other gens. They got 4 gens done by the time he'd hooked 2 people. By the time the last gen was around 90% everyone was dead.
In that scenario, were they "mostly even?" At the beginning of the match? Or was Otz simply playing a strategy that didn't require gen defense?
Your blight had 8 hooks by the time the last gen was repaired. That means he'd killed one of you, and had 2 others on death hook, unless someone on your team just hid all game to escape being hooked at all. That's not "even" that's more "about to snowball" noed or not.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719906#Comment_2719906
Great points.
You may be right about the influence of MMR, when it comes to the question of "how often will I face a good squad?"
I'm fairly confident I'm already at the higher ends of MMR, but even if I am not... this test should theoretically take me there at the rate of success I'm currently seeing. Therefore, at a certain point my data will reflect how effective camping is at high MMR and the results I see from then on will answer OP's initial question one way or another.
At the end of the day, it just comes down to collecting more data points.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719983#Comment_2719983
If a survivor is on death hook, I'm not going to camp them as the entity takes their body up to the sky.
In the instance of "left a survivor I thought was on death hook," I had already killed one survivor and believed the Mikaela I was throwing on hook was dead. I instinctively left hook and immediately picked up chase with a Claudette. It wasn't until I was half way across the map with Claud that I realized the Mikaela was only on second hook.
Therefore, I've included the note to clarify that I erred in this trial, and it wasn't a 100% camping match (I only camped 91.67% of hooks).
Honestly, a bit weird that you're trying to paint me in a bad light when I'm the one who reported that I made a mistake.
Also, this isn't a face-camping study. Its camping. I'm not staring into the souls of every survivor, because that isn't optimal camping.
Edit: I see OP using the word 'face-camping.' It's possible we disagree on what 'face-camping' is exactly, but it sounds like him and I are both camping survivors the same way. The semantics don't really matter too much, as long as people are understanding that the camping in this experiment is close, but not "i'm staring into your soul."
As for SWF, I play on PC and can check people's friends lists. Also, I have asked people "hey are you a swf?"
So far, I've only noted SWFs when I've known beyond a shadow of a doubt.
I'm not going to waste my time belaboring the reasons for counting disconnects as kills, as I've hammered the point multiple times in the previous 6 pages of this discussion.
1. I'm not trying to paint you in any light. I'm asking questions and pointing out what I see as flaws in your methodology.
2. Good to know on swf. Considering how often people claim they faced one, it is important to verify.
3. The reason I kept bringing up facecamping specifically, is because that's what the OP claimed to be testing. That's why the idea of you walking away from a survivor didn't make any sense to me, that would, in my eyes, invalidate the round. To be fair that's because I tend to favor pristine test/data sets for any sort of long term study.
4. That does directly show just how much transparency these "studies" have. It took 10 pages to work out whether you were testing face or proxy camping (which have different strategies on the survivor end, as I'm sure you are aware, and are seen as distinct types of play by BHVR)
5. Again, I'm not trying to paint you in any light, I don't know you. What I am critical of is the data being presented, as I don't feel it's complete, and now it seems it wasn't even testing the scenario mentioned in the OP (tbf, neither was the OP)
6. Quick note, I've seen your justification and I disagree. A DC isn't a kill. It doesn't take the same time and shouldn't count the same, in my view. A DC is a DC.
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The reason PHead's cages work is because they are optional. The killer is never forced to cage, and it can be beneficial to choose one or the other, depending on the situation.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719268#Comment_2719268
Honestly, the more I read it, the more I regret trying to use an example that hasn't happened to me.
A more recent example would be this: A good Blight who was running Ruin, Undying and PGTW was absolutely hammering me and my friend. He had 7 hooks by the time the gens were done and 1 Kill. I was death hook, but everyone was healthy. He catches me and my friend out of position near the gate and I get downed. My friend begins running to the other gate as I get hooked. Blight catches up and manages to interrupt the gate opening by downing the girl on the gate. He gets a 4K.
That's where I usually see NOED come into play. On good Killers in close games.
That also seems fair. Blight kept good pressure all game with 3 active perks (really 2 since PGTW and Ruin don't work at the same time) and kept you from having time to stop his 4th from activating, then used it to good effect when it did. What exactly is the issue there?
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Did I not just play 20 games as Leatherface? Yes
Did I not get a 3.4 Kill rate with Leatherface while facecamping?
No
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719575#Comment_2719575
what's bullshit about it? it fixes a problem for survivors having little to no counter-play(other than hook trading) on instant down/low recovery characters and eliminates facecamping. Dev said proxy camping is fine and you can still proxy camp with this change. in fact many players that play pyramid head still do for when they're tunneling the guy out of the cage.
Let's say you've got 1 gen left, you get chased and run as far away from that gen as you can, so when you are downed your teammates can keep working. Once you get hooked, the hook then teleports to be closer to your team, they get a free unhook and all pressure is instantly lost.
Or, it's end game, you hook a survivor near the shack, they get teleported to a hook by one of the doors or hatch and escape.
Yes these are things that could theoretically be programmed around, but I don't believe they would be. In the meantime, how bad would slugging become? I personally don't leave people to bleed out, but if my options are that or hope that the RNG gods don't give away my pressure, I can't say I would continue to abstain, especially at end game.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720012#Comment_2720012
This is honestly really off topic but how is 1 survivor running around a Killer so the other 2 survivors can do generators at 230% speed not worse than 3 survivors doing generators a 300% speed.
I swear, I don't think people even think about suggestions and instead make knee-jerk replies.
How are 3 survivors going to do gens while one is being chased by the killer?
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I loved that show so much
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720004#Comment_2720004
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/83GI6DJY6I45/image.png
This is about 6 meters. Basically if have hooked anyone in the basement, then anything inside the 4 walls of the basement is facecamping.
"I think the funny thing is, you are worried that I'm using a "weaker" strategy."
Nope, never said anything close to that, not sure where you are pulling that. My concern is that you don't actually understand what facecamping is.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720004#Comment_2720004
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/83GI6DJY6I45/image.png
This is about 6 meters. Basically if have hooked anyone in the basement, then anything inside the 4 walls of the basement is facecamping.
1. That's like 12 feet
2. No, that's basement camping. But hey, at least now I know I can completely disregard your "data".
Honestly it's a bit of a shame. I don't like actual facecamping, but we're not going to get anywhere when people just make up their own definitions for what it is and expect everyone to follow along.
Both you and your partner have repeatedly ignored any concerns about your methodology, and now it seems you aren't using any commonly understood definition of the action you are attempting to base experiments on. Does your partner subscribe to the same 6 meter rule for what is and isn't facecamping?
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719995#Comment_2719995
LOL, you are literally 2 to 3 steps away from the survivor at that point. If you are calling that proxy-camping, then you are actually facecamping. That is facecamping.
6 meters is 18 feet.
That's 3 times the recommended "personal space" defined by the CDC and others to keep airborne particulate from spreading. That's not 2-3 steps. (unless you take 6-9 ft long steps, which would mean you are literally 12 feet tall)
The average prison cell is 6ft by 8ft. Meaning that you could fit 3 cells side by side in the amount of space you claim to be able to cross in 2-3 steps.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719983#Comment_2719983
Everyone calls "Suicides" on hook. I don't think you can count a "Suicide" as a lose, especially when you consider one of the major reasons people facecamp is to troll. And what better way to troll than to make someone so mad they suicide.
However, if you remove "Suicides" as null. He still has a 100% kill rate.
I love how pro-facecamping forum posters are moving the goal posts to try and defend facecamping. Actually, I can't believe anyone is defending facecamping.
Was it a suicide on hook? That information isn't there, seems you are just making that up (like you are your arbitrary definition of what facecamping is) all the "data" says is it was a DC. A DC isn't a kill. Simple as that. This isn't moving the goalposts, this is plainly stating that if you kick the ball outside of them, it's not a field goal.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719906#Comment_2719906
ARE KILLERS ACTUALLY PUNISHED FOR CAMPING?
The definitive answer is actual: "It depends". As it is based on who you face? You claim to care about all survivors, that means that against good, bad, solo's, swf, new, competitive players and whether you are punished for camping is purely reliant on the efficiency that they showcase and their teamwork.
So far, the definitive answer is actually "Yes". Right now, no one has brought proof to the contrary. I think @KayTwoAyy and I have shown that facecamping is rewarding to the killer by giving a win condition, as defined by the developers, in the fact that the average kills is higher than a loss.
Let's define facecamping for DBD, so everyone has the same definition.
Facecamping /v/ Staying within about 6 meters of the hooked survivor. You can defend gens and slugged survivors in that radius. Faking leaving by going slightly outside that radius and coming right back is fine. Seeing a survivor and faking a chase by going slightly outside that radius and coming right back is fine.
(So about slightly past that tree in the 8M photo below)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/RKN9S7G6I51M/image.png
Most times I just stand right in the survivors face and stare up at them. Recently, in the last 5 out of 20 games, I am trying to hook close to gens being worked so I have even more facecamping time by denying a gen.
Sorry I didn't get any camping data last night, got busy doing home improvement projects.
And now we've come to the real issue.
You are going by some made up version of facecamping that I've never even heard of. The face part of facecamping isnt just a word that's thrown in for fun. It refers to the killer standing Face to Face with the hooked survivor. You aren't doing that from 6 meters away. What you are doing is the specific type of gameplay the devs have stated they Don't want to mess up with any changes intended to fix actual facecamping.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
DOCTOR CAMP TEST
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7QFBKS7I07OZ/image.png
KILL RATE: 100% | AVG KILLS: 4 | Hatch escapes: 0 | AVG GENS: 3 | TOTAL D/C'S: 1 | AVG TRIAL TIME: 9 minutes 6 seconds
10 games a night is a little too many, so I'm going to cut it to 5 and just update this post the next night I'm able to fit 5 games in.
Doctor seems to be just as proficient as Nemesis.
He is a little weaker in chase, which put me on the back foot at the start of games 4 & 5, but his base-kit abilities were surprisingly helpful for camping.
So far it seems that...
The strength of camping is entirely dependent on how quickly I locate and down the first survivor.
If I hook the first survivor before the first generator is finished, a 4k feels guaranteed. If I hook the first survivor after the second generator is finished, my success is entirely dependent on how many risks the survivors are willing to take. If I hook the first survivor after the third generator is finished... forget it--I'd be surprised if I even 1k.
Games 4 & 5 got off to very shaky starts, as I didn't hook the first survivor until after the first and second gens, respectively. I'm very surprised to be walking away from the first 5 doc trials with 20 kills.
Wait, you are counting disconnects as kills as well?
Also your notes say you "left a survivor you thought was on death hook" if you are running a face camping test, i.e. hunting down a survivor, hooking them and staring into their retenas, then how did you leave any survivor?
The more you push past the numerous questions on your testing methodology, the shadier this all looks, tbh.
Your notes indicate you faced 2 swf groups. What evidence do you have for either group being swf? Are you interviewing subjects post test, or just assuming based on gameplay?
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
Tell me you're a killer main without telling me you're a killer main.
I'll give you a few easy examples to get started;
Lithe is overpowered.
Alchemist's Ring Blight is perfectly balanced.
Decisive Strike needs another nerf.
For real, though, can we please please please please cut it out with the us vs them, pit one side vs the other, absolute levels of bullshittery we have here every single day. Both sides have valid issues to deal with, and both sides deserve to have complaints to listen to. Pitting everyone against each other with every single ######### post is so tiring and the antithesis of the word "productive".
Please, just stop.
Tbh I've never once heard anyone complain about lithe
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No party streamers? Damn this killer rulebook is getting heavy. What's the issue with streamers? Hate free BP?
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@Munqaxus said:
"Camping isn't intended" again, gotta disagree. We know from multiple dev diaries that camping is, in fact, an intended mechanic. True face camping (which hasn't been actually possible for years) wasn't, which was why they fixed it so that a survivor could be unhooked from any angle, not just the front. (Fun side question, who here remembers when a killer could hook you and literally go afk if he stood in the right spot, knowing you were blocked from being saved? That was true face camping. How bad would that have sucked with Twins?)
I don't know if this is actually what people are saying. I think people are saying that face-camping is rewarding Killer-players with Kills way beyond the skill it takes to face-camping.
I've seen it stated numerous times on these boards that killers are punished for face-camping by only getting 1 kill and 3 escapes. In face, the exact opposite is happening right now. As I am face-camping, I'm getting 3.2 kills and 0.8 escapes on average per game.
From a game design perspective, this is ridiculous. I'm going against survivors way beyond my skill level and I know for a fact I'm not deserving 3.2 kills against a bunch of these survivors. Several of those games, if I had not face camped, the survivors would have gotten a well-deserved 4 man escape, because they were that much more skilled than I was.
There were survivors making amazing coordinated 2 person flashlight saves. Amazing Dead-Hard/Borrowed Time saves. Survivors that straight worked gens while I face camped. Every single one lost by 1.2 kills on average.
You deserve what you are being handed. Not for nothing, but if the survivors are feeding themselves to you while you stay in one place, then they really aren't that great. Especially if you are on bubba, one of the easiest characters to actually see in the game. The easiest skill in the world is to see the giant with the chainsaw who's staring at your buddy (and therefore has his back to you) and head in the other direction. With kindred you don't even need to be close enough to see him, just remember the pink aura isn't your friend.
That's the issue I have with the whole "skill" idea. Sure it takes no skill to press a button while someone is right in front of you, but it takes the same level to put yourself right in front of someone who isn't moving.
As far as whether people are claiming it's unintended. Read this and the other thread, that was a direct quote.
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Lot of misconceptions popping up.
"Survivors each have to be hooked 3 times" not quite. Survivors get 3 chances, assuming they are saved from the hook. If they were meant to always be hooked 3 times, they would be popped off the hook by the game, rather than going to the next stage on a timer. Also, the hook counter actually counts transitions as a hook, so you can hook each survivor only 1 time, and if they die on hook, you get a full hook counter.
"Camping isn't intended" again, gotta disagree. We know from multiple dev diaries that camping is, in fact, an intended mechanic. True face camping (which hasn't been actually possible for years) wasn't, which was why they fixed it so that a survivor could be unhooked from any angle, not just the front. (Fun side question, who here remembers when a killer could hook you and literally go afk if he stood in the right spot, knowing you were blocked from being saved? That was true face camping. How bad would that have sucked with Twins?)
"10 matches per day, 50 matches total is a good data set" not really, especially not with just one player who's skill level we just don't know. You could be the best bubba player ever (you can't be the worst, because I am) not only would I suggest playing as every killer, I would also suggest getting a group of people of different skill levels to do the same. A good daily goal for sampling would be 100 games each. With 10 people that gives you 1k a day, after a month you'd have enough data to actually see trends, still not enough for peer review standards, but then we're discussing video games, not cancer treatment. Which leads to my last bit.
"Hatch escapes aren't escapes" until BHVR let's us actually see the algorithm they use to sort mmr out, I'm not going to take a position on how they are counted in the game. I would suggest for any aspiring researchers out there just count it as a third category, same with DC. (So kills, door escapes, hatch escapes, disconnects. 4 total categories)
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@Kyochi said:
This solution can disincentivise hard camping.
If the killer is within 24m of a hooked survivor for more than 10 seconds while not in a chase the hook timer will decrease by 75%. This effect will immediately disappear the moment a chase begins with another survivor.
Hear me out,
Normally the timer for a full hooked state is 120 seconds when a killer is hard camping the timer will keep going normally and normally that doesn't make the game fun for anyone.
My solution is since DBD formula is based on additive if we were to decrease the hooked state timer by 75% after the 10-second mark. Survivors will gain an extra 90 seconds on a hooked state due to the idea of even trying to hard camp. so by formulating this the hooked survivor will gain an extra 80 seconds on the hooked state which allows survivors to pretty much fully punish a killer just because of their hard camp and completely disincentivize the killer to even attempt camping without completely losing everything.
So in conclusion, if killers hard camp the whole game hooked survivor survival for a total of 200 seconds instead of 120 seconds but if played normally the timer will stay 120 seconds
First thought is would this zone be lateral, or would it also include being above/below the hook? If not, then they can just camp from the top of the basement stairs. If it is then wide swathes of hooks in places like the game and Midwitch become basically unusable.
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@SayianDlight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2714531#Comment_2714531
ok. But about straight lines. how to play on Midwich Elementary school, The Game, Azarov's Resting Place and more against Trickster? Where there are a lot of straight ways and small amount of buildings that are good for loops? Obviously The Game is very, very bad to play on, but the Trickster makes it much harder to play than any other killers
Same as you do against Huntress, just with the knowledge he has to land 5 more hits to actually drop a health state, and 10 more to down anyone.
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2 different threads created within 12 hours of each other, both basically saying the exact same thing. Someone let a survivor really tilt them today.
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@Miles said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2666224#Comment_2666224
Prettt sure the doctor got tortured too.
Nope, ol Doc actually did all of that to himself. Just couldn't stop bringing his work home with him
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I will always give Claudette the hatch.
If you play Claudette and find a doctor who refuses to kill you, that was me. She's the best OG survivor and I won't hear anything against her.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2713472#Comment_2713472
You did, and it changed nothing. Not sure what you expected, but there we are. You need the game to personally reward you in order to make you give a damn about your teammates.
That's the point @Marigoria was making. The game actively incentivises selfish play.
And as much waffling as I see going on here about 'commitment', none of it matters when communication is key to teamwork and solo queuers don't get any. I'm not a solo oriented player, I will help my team any way I can. I specifically ditched the Spine Chill/Sprintburst combo because everyone else would be on death hook and I wouldn't have been in a single chase. I once took three protection hits in one chase against a tunnelling nurse. My favourite playmaker perk is For the People.
None of that matters. Comms is the big benefit Swiffers have over solos. Not commitment. You can get plenty of that in solo queue as well.
In what way, specifically, does the game actively incentivive selfish play?
As mentioned in my op, plenty of communication exists outside of headsets, just a matter of actually using it. A ping system would definitely help, but there is communication available
"I specifically ditched the Spine Chill/Sprintburst combo because everyone else would be on death hook and I wouldn't have been in a single chase."
And you didn't need anyone to tell you, on headset, what was happening.
"I once took three protection hits in one chase against a tunnelling nurse."
Again, without needing someone to tell you in a headset that they needed the assistance and were being tunneled.
And in both cases, the game did, in fact reward you with more BP. Each of the protection hits earned you some, and the extra interaction would have as well, so we have the game is actually rewarding teamwork.
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@Clevite said:
The biggest issue between the two, IMO, is not the communication,it's the commitment to the team.
#########, If I SWF, one of our mates speaks only French, I speak only English, and I know I will not go to second stage because they will save me. We don't need to communicate this, we just understand how the game is played and are committed to giving each other a solid teammate.
As solo, many are only concerned with their own game. That is why killers prefer to verse solos, the strength of SWF is not the comms it is in the commitment. Sure the comms help, but at a certain point, 4 really good solos are just as formidable as any SWF.
Exactly. Amazing what a bit of team spirit can accomplish.
Also I just love the idea of people from different countries, who speak different languages, bonding over the shared language of butt-dance 😉 when I was a lad and we saw the first internet (ARPNet made primarily of stones and bits of poo) that was always the promise, that this fancy new tech would have you making friends in countries you've never seen, and part of me gets excited when I see evidence that actually does happen.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2711854#Comment_2711854
I already added the context above, "😉".
You did, and it changed nothing. Not sure what you expected, but there we are. You need the game to personally reward you in order to make you give a damn about your teammates.
Maybe it's because I started playing team based multiplayer games back when the N64 was the hot console you couldn't find in stores, and a "battle pass" was what the laser tag arena called their seasonal admission scheme, but I tend to believe winning the match should be incentive enough to work as a team.
It's just two different thought processes. When I die and see 3 teammates escape I think "nice, we won!" When you are in that situation, as per your own comments here, you start to worry about the mmr rating (which, side note, absolutely hilarious that you think the mmr in DbD works or matters enough to care about)
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@Ink_Eyes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2711884#Comment_2711884
Unless you can go AFK while repairing the generator holding m1 and unless the character can stop repairing and start the running animation while AFK then no... I admit they were dumb and I wasnt exactly very visible since they were doing one of those gens that is kinda blocked by a long wall and they still tried to run but kinda sandbagged each other...but still I feel there should be something to stop 3 insta downs, like get 1 insta down and subsequent hits only hurt 1 health state and puts them into deep wounds or something like that.
Not traditionally afk, but it's definitely easy to lure yourself into a state of not paying attention as you wait for skill checks.
So what we have is a situation where multiple survivors didn't pay attention and got surprised by the killer, who then took them down as they ran into each other trying to get away. That again seems less like a problem with any particular game mechanics, and more an issue of players not paying attention.
Full disclosure, I hate playing bubba. He just doesn't work with my killer playstyle, however I do love playing against him. It's fun and dangerous. When I hear a chainsaw and realize it's just Billy, I end up disappointed, because he doesn't feel nearly as dangerous, in part because his chainsaw is crap. Going by what I'm going to call "standard horror logic" the big mutants with chainsaws should be able to go through survivors like they are made of paper.
I think Bubba's chainsaw being able to slice through multiple survivors at once is not only logical for the killer, but balanced by the fact that he has no real speed and no range whatsoever. Also the tantrum mechanic really balances and adds risk to trying to get a multi-hit. As soon as the survivors hear that chainsaw, they should know that being grouped up is a risk.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2711884#Comment_2711884
Actually there's a bug that's been in the game for months or years where the chainsaw revving is silent for some reason. It's like if he's not in-frame for you, his chainsaw revving is silent. You'll be hearing chase music and then suddenly "Huh huh huh guh huh!" with no telltale.
But even with that glitch, you still hear the chase music and still see the giant with the tree trimming equipment, yes?
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@Ink_Eyes said:
Bubbas chainsaw should stop when he downs a survivor, I just downed 3 survivors in a row after my tinkerer activated and they didn't notice I was coming, the other guy disconnected...
Are we absolutely sure they weren't already afk? Tinkerer just hides the heartbeat, doesn't do anything to hide the chainsaw sound or that there's a giant guy running towards you.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2711854#Comment_2711854
I usually check people's post histories when I see stuff of a similar nature.
Usually makes me think that the posts/mindset/gameplay all come together into a beautiful self-fulfilling prophecy.
:3
I do that with the "I was disconnected and got a 6 hour ban through absolutely no fault of my own" threads. 99.9% of the time you can find the post where they brag about how often they DC.
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@Raccoon said:
It's apparently a hellish landscape, where only the other 3 guys (obviously SWF) perform well!
For real, though, I don't understand - I've never found it as bad as people say.
Occasionally, I'll get games that I feel are 'impossible' to win (sometimes I do manage to win/draw in these games), but I feel that's just the way it goes in a game designed with so much built-in randomness.
A lot of the topics I see regarding Solo Queue almost seem like the posters are playing a different game.
It almost feels like people want to remove the 'randomness' from the game and just have everyone, Solo or not, pumped full of free info and running meta.
I'm not a pro or anything, but I think Solo Queue is way more fun than SWF because of its random nature - Most of my matches are dynamic when compared to each other and I honestly think that's why people that play (and like) Solo, do so.
Your first mistake was thinking any of us here actually represent anything more than the collective complaints of tons of bad matches 😉 that's all this forum is, just a giant "I lost and it's all unfair!" In a few new ways per day
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@Marigoria said:
I'm glad you decided to quote a comment I made in another thread without even asking for context about it, and just decided to assume what it really meant.
My comment was not about the team work itself, was about the lack of gain you actually get for working as a team.
If my team escapes and I die, who gets lower MMR and worse team mates? Me. Maybe I died and they escaped because I decided to go back and save them, who knows. I still don't get rewarded for going back and saving them besides some low BP points and maybe some feel good pats on the back, which again, is irrelevant to gameplay, it's just a ego booster.
No one said "swf killed solo q", it has nothing to do with swf. It has to do with the lack of communication available. Was SWF the ones who took communication away from solo q? No, so why would swf be the ones to blame? I've never even seen anyone saying "solo q sucks bc of swf".
The "crappy mindset" is fueled by how the game is designed itself. It rewards selfish gameplay. Saying kindred basekit wouldnt help solo q at all is just plain ignorance.
It's 4v1 when you're in a SWF, not solo Q.
Why would I care that people that I dont know escaped when I get nothing for it?
Go ahead, add that context. 😉
Oh wait, you did, and it's still the exact same sentiment? Oh well. Tbf, the reason I quoted you wasn't because you were the first I've seen with that mindset, just the best, most concise example of it.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
I mean a lot of what you point out is common sense.
I have always stood behind the fact that the only thing SWF provides that makes a difference is reliability. Communication becomes secondary when you have that.
I remember someone telling me this isn’t a “team-based game” because you can be on a gen by yourself and do objectives by yourself. Completely missing the entire point that some of the worst matches I’ve had have been due to the lack of people being allergic to gens. (I have seen this on every grade from Ash to Red)
It not just that people play selfishly but inefficiently as well. They deserve every bit of bad reputation IMO. Because it is that bad especially when you get paired against a high MMR killer.
It's 100% all common sense stuff, but that's the easiest forgotten.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
I don't give a damn whether other people escape or not. Not anymore. There were so many games where I was extremely altruistic, dropping everything whenever I saw a wounded survivor, healing them and distracting them from the killer. I also risked a lot in order to take them off the hook in the very last second because nobody else was coming while the killer got busy. Then I got scolded in the post-game chat for not doing the gens and not helping the team.
After that? I'm done with teamwork. I'm out for myself and the rest can hang.
Name checks out.