cluxdx
cluxdx
About
- Username
- cluxdx
- Joined
- Visits
- 147
- Last Active
Comments
-
No. The harsher the mechanics you add to the game to prevent tunneling, the more killers who don't tunnel can get hurt by it. I've been playing for years and still to this day I frequently run into the last unhooked survivor completely by accident. That's not my fault and I shouldn't be punished for just playing the game. What they need to do is provide a solid reason to not tunnel so that maybe less killers choose to do it, or maybe it becomes less optimal compared to spreading hooks. Until the game rewards players for playing nicer, many will choose not to.
-
There are base-kit anti-tunnel mechanics. They added the base-kit BT for that exact purpose.
Here's the thing: There is no way to actually stop killers from tunneling without significantly affecting regular gameplay, especially in scenarios when the killer runs into the same person twice completely by accident. I'm sick and tired of everyone trying to suggest all these new "anti" mechanics, because they're going to get to a point that they will hurt people who aren't deliberately doing those things.
If you want to reduce tunneling without hurting the overall killer experience, you need to add positive incentives for not tunneling. Maybe nerf all the meta slowdown and give the killer something like a 5% gen speed reduction anytime someone is hooked and they are more than 32m away. Or even just something small like the old BBQ BP bonus.
Unless you give every killer a reason to not tunnel, there are always going to be many who choose to do so because it's simply an effective way to win.
-
In terms of balance I think the game's better than it's ever been. In terms of my enjoyment of it, it's not quite an all time low but it's not what it used to be.
My issue isn't really specific perks or anything, it's just the aggressively competitive mindset everyone goes in with these days. In the days where there was more busted stuff readily available, somehow it was actually less common to see killers stacking every good regression perk or 4 man SWFs using all the hard meta perk combos all the time. Now it feels like the norm.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing the game however you wish to play it, but I think people in this game tend to care way too much about the end result of the match that they often forget to actually have a little fun in the match. People are sometimes racing for the most uninteractive gameplay they possibly can (i.e. gen rush builds, hardcore tunneling, etc.) and you lose all opportunity for interesting chases.
Unfortunately there's nothing BHVR can do to fix the playerbase; that's up to everyone as individuals to decide what is most fun for them. Some people find winning the most fun. Personally I just like to have an interesting match.
-
@sinkra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653355#Comment_3653355
How do you know hatch escapes aren't counted as escapes in the stats?
Pretty sure BHVR has mentioned something along those lines in the past. They aren't counted in the MMR or pip systems either.
-
@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653392#Comment_3653392
I don't think escaping is the end all be all for fun as a survivor at all, but I do think it ties into my earlier point about one of solo queue players biggest complaints about matches feeling "unwinnable". A lot of people feel that what they do and their skill has zero impact on how a typical match plays out in solo queue. At the end of the day, their statistics point towards the game being very balanced (and in a sense it's probably the most balanced the game has ever been), but I still strongly believe that people care more about the "feeling" of a game compared to it's perceived balance, and that's why there's so many complaints about solo queue being a terrible experience.
That is fair, but I think that's always going to be a problem for any team-based game/role. Randos just don't wanna play with the team sometimes, or maybe matchmaking just served you a stinker and there's too much skill variance in the lobby. As a frequent solo queue CS player, I definitely feel this. It's just kind of an impossible problem to fix.
IMO a chat wheel is the most surefire thing, as there's no real advantage given to a SWF with that. A weaker base-kit Kindred might also be alright. Unfortunately though, there's never going to be anything BHVR can do about that one teammate that runs the killer around the hook until you inevitably get sac'd.
-
@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653218#Comment_3653218
Solo queue issues are directly tied to their benchmark of a 60% kill rate though. Most solo queue complaints are either about tunneling, proxy camping, bad teammates, or unwinnable matches. Most players complain about solo queue "feeling" bad, and it does feel bad when you escape on average 3 maybe 4 times out of every 10 matches.
I don't understand why we just have to accept that a 60-40 split is correct simply because bHVR says so. Hell, they're still talking about trying to make the game a "horror" game and because of that the killer should be the undisputed heavy hand. This games not a horror game past 40 hours of playtime (probably even less). It's a more and more competitive game where you can't just design the game for how you wanted it to be, you have to design it around how the game is actually played by the community. The game sucks from a "feel" perspective and that's never a healthy problem for a game to have.
The 60% kill rate is one of the biggest issues with solo queue and the survivor role in general.
But there's nothing you can do about that 60% figure, realistically. If killer gets a 50% kill rate that generally means they are underpowered because killer is supposed to win the 1v1. See my above reply about why kill rates are the way that they are.
But frankly, I think if whether or not you "win" is the sole determining factor in whether or not you had fun that game, then maybe an asymmetrical game isn't your cup of tea to begin with. There will always be a power role to some extent, and the game will also never have a perfectly defined win condition. To some killers, a "win" is a 2k with 10 hooks. To others, nothing less than a 4k is victory. To some survivors, a "win" is them getting a solo escape. To others, their goal is getting the team out. Asking BHVR to balance around any particular percentage is going to be based on a subjective interpretation of what "victory" is.
-
@sinkra said:
It's not just about solo survivors, even high MMR 4-man SWF has a 48% escape rate. The whole survivor role needs a slight buff. They can start small, like -10 seconds on gen. Or fixing vaults so the killer can't hit you when you're literally on the other side and running.
Statistically speaking a 60% kill rate actually means the game is balanced pretty well overall. Because of the nature of killer winning the 1v1, almost any killer can guarantee at least one kill if they play their cards right, either through hook trades, EGC, etc. On top of that, when the killer kills 3 people they tend to kill all 4, and hatch escapes aren't counted in the stats.
If you assume most games range from 1-4 kills, that creates an average of 2.5 kills per game, which rounds to 63%. Adding in the occasional 4 man escape, 60% sounds relatively fair IMO. I believe the devs have even stated this is around what their ideal goal is.
-
My problem with it is that it's just not fun. Sure it's still probably the strongest survivor perk in the game, but its strength isn't really my issue, nor is it the occasional lose/lose when someone makes a pallet from it. My problem is that it predominantly punishes M1 killers (who are already generally weak) and also forces me to waste my time waiting around to swing when in any other case I could just down the person.
The amount of times lately I've waited almost 5 seconds to swing right behind someone just for them to Dead Hard on the third juke when I finally M1 them also has me questioning how many players I face that really could be cheating that I just never noticed before. It blurs the lines between cheaters and legitimate players when I'm sitting there wondering "Did they just get THAT lucky or is something a little fishy here?"
-
The kill rate before 6.1.0 was ~50%. On paper that may appear balanced, but in practice it is not. There are several reasons for this.
1: When killers win, they tend to get 4 kills more often than not. If they get 3 kills, it is more often than not due to hatch, which I don't believe is counted in the overall stats for kill rates. MMR also completely ignores hatch escapes.
2: When killers lose, they still tend to get 1 kill. By nature of the killer being better in the 1v1 it is very easy to secure a kill even in the harshest of losses. This means that the vast majority of the time, game results don't typically range from 0-4 kills (2 average) but instead 1-4 kills (2.5 average).
Based on that, logically the kill rate should ideally be a little over 60% for the game to be truly balanced. There is also the fact that kill rates aren't everything since there are a lot of different factors driving them that aren't always the most predictable, but on the general that's roughly where they should sit, and the devs have made clear that's their end goal.
-
@Seraphor said:
- Killers should be able to use the map offerings we currently have. They have one offering against four so it should carry more weight, and they are the agent of the entity after all. Using their offering to supplement their build/playstyle is not unreasonable. This allows builds like Mirror Myers, and just Ghost Face in general, to remain viable.
- Survivors gain access to yellow map offerings, which increase the likelihood of going to a specific realm by 25% or 30%. There's four of them, if they really want to make sure they go there they can stack 3 or 4 of the same offering.
- All map offerings including sacrificial wards should be hidden, just like mori's and shrouds. So people don't know whether or not they ended up on a map through RNG or via an offering.
It's not a matter of whether the game is competitive or not, it's the fact that someone guaranteeing a specific map with a specific build/character that is really strong on that map is just not fun for the people on the other side of it. Imagine if every game you got sent to Midwich as a solo survivor, or every game you got sent to Eyrie, Garden, Badham, etc. as killer. The existence of map offerings as they are can make an entire session unfun depending on your luck.
I've had streaks up to 6-8 games straight of nothing but map offerings some days, and it just kills the fun having to claw my way up from the trenches every game when it happens.
As a Blight main I could make every game a living hell if I wanted, so long as I picked only small maps with Infectious Fright. Now imagine exactly that, but also throw in Iri Tag or Alchemist's Ring and you have a free win that completely maximizes survivor pain in that game. Why don't I do that? Because I hate when survivors do the same thing to me.
-
If you can't reveal him it's generally either you doing it wrong, or someone (either you or the killer) is desynced. If their ping is really bad—as in they can barely play the game bad—then yes, you will have tremendous difficulty revealing them.
If all parties' connection is relatively decent, it's ridiculously easy to pull him out of Night Shroud. Being honest, I think he needs the time to reveal him upped to at least 2 seconds, because since his base-kit changes I find I spend way more time out of my power than before, even with the old Chewed Pen + Address Book combo.
-
Worst: Eyrie of Crows. Really strong main building, map is huge, too many strong pallets, ridiculously inconvenient boon spots, etc. I have genuinely never had fun on this map, even in the case that I win.
Garbage Tier: Every Badham, Gideon, Garden of Joy, ~1/2 of the Coldwinds, RPD.
I'll still whine about it: Mother's Dwelling because it's too damn big, the other half of the Coldwinds because Corn is booty garbage.
-
How is it still in the game? Simple: it's really difficult to find an effective way of disincentivizing it without also destroying the killer's balance. If you make Bubba unable to use his chainsaw within a certain radius of hook, then people will just dive him every time he goes for a hook and he can't really punish them for it. It basically takes a scenario that should be a disadvantage and makes it now advantageous. Personally I think Bubba himself is 100% fine, facecamping just needs a base-kit change.
IMO a perfectly fair punishment for camping would be to slow entity progression by 50% if the killer stands within 18m of the hook for more than 20 seconds and is not in chase. The second they leave that radius (thus giving the survivors a chance to save) or enter a chase the negative effect goes away and progress resumes as normal. This guarantees that a killer can't camp someone to death before all gens get done, even with Deadlock.
-
1: The majority of characters in DBD are obtainable for free—only licensed characters cannot be bought with shards. Other games don't really compare on that front, because DBD is unique in adding a lot of characters from other franchises. The closest comparison would be Super Smash Bros., and it not only has a purchase price of $60, but also all DLC characters after the fact—including Nintendo's own IP—cost real money.
2: BHVR has already announced that all non-licensed cosmetics are progressively being made available with shards, so you will not be required to pay for them if you're willing to grind.
3: The Rift does not have an issue with FOMO, because after a grace period all rift items are made available in the in-game store.
4: Tome challenges really aren't that difficult, and you don't even have to do all of them.
5: The Rift's premium track allows you to completely recoup the money spent if you finish it. Many other games with battle passes like R6 only allow you to partially recoup your money. OW2 doesn't let you recoup any at all, so you're paying $10 every season.
6: OW2's battle pass is far worse than any other game I've played, because your free access to the new hero requires you to grind during the battle pass, and you can't just stock up free currency ahead of time to get them on launch like you can with DBD. I currently have easily over 40 hours in OW2 (mostly ranked) and I still haven't hit Tier 55, where all future characters will be locked behind. In DBD I buy nearly every new original killer with shards on their chapter release.
In summary, just about every point you made is at least to some extent, incorrect or misguided.
-
@DoctorMadness said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3235007#Comment_3235007
Ok go face a good nurse 1v1 and tell me how you do -.-
1v1 is not a good metric, ever. The thing is Nurse has great 1v1 but she also has no 1v4 whatsoever. On the other end of the spectrum there are killers like Legion which have terrific 1v4 but virtually no 1v1. Nurse ending chases fast is not in and of itself a bad thing, and you grossly misunderstand game balance if you honestly think that.
I completely agree Nurse is too strong. I think at the very least her add-ons need to be nerfed into the ground and her post-blink attacks should count as special attacks instead of basic attacks, but purely going off "she can down a survivor in under 20 seconds" is a stupid outlook, especially when killers like Huntress can do the same thing in the right scenarios.
-
@CoDismylife said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233955#Comment_3233955
Then explain to me why you BHVR (knowing this) still went ahead and made GENERAL BASEKIT BUFFS because you didn't like the kill rate stats you showed before? They didn't show the full story either but you still took them to do basekit changes.
You even made a post after some time saying "we happy about the basekit changes because the Killrate went up".
Make sense bhvr.
He already addressed that. They help and are an overall indicator of general game health to a certain extent. The point he's trying to address is that while they help, they also aren't everything. And you also fail to acknowledge that roughly 60% is their target for kill rates, not 50%. The reasoning for this is that the vast majority of the time, killers usually get at least one kill. The ability to secure a kill during EGC serves to inflate kill rates a little, so if the overall kill rate is 50% then in evenly matched games killers still lose more than they win, since 0Ks are inherently less common than 4Ks.
-
IMO tunneling is exactly fine where it is. The 10s base-kit BT is working wonders to disincentivize tunneling in your average game, and even when the killer does tunnel it makes it pretty inconvenient compared to before. If the survivor has OTR they literally have a shield as long as they want it as well.
In regards to camping, I don't know that there's really a catch-all fix. Personally I disagree with the existence of Reassurance just the same as I do Shattered Hope because I don't like perks being the solution to a problem with actual game mechanics, but Reassurance is technically still an option. If you want a base-game fix, I'd make it so that if the killer is within 12-18m of the hook for more than 20 seconds and is not in chase, the sacrifice timer goes 50% slower until they leave. This doesn't hurt light proxy camping all that much, but directly punishes face camping enough that Deadlock isn't enough to camp someone to death.
-
@Tizzle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3216278#Comment_3216278
With this line of thought, Decisive Strike should not be disabled in end game.
No, because DS can work at any point throughout the match. Perks like it directly condition the way killer has to play if they don't want to get hit by it, so its mere existence is a net benefit to a survivor whether they have it or not. The fact a killer has to assume you have it makes them likely to play suboptimally (as in not tunneling) giving you a better chance to win. On the flip side, No Way Out puts you in a direct disadvantage state all game with zero potential for upside until the endgame, which inherently makes you more likely to lose.
Bear in mind I disagree with parts of the DS nerf, like it being a 3s stun as opposed to 5s, but DS is not an apt comparison to No Way Out because they hardly do the same thing.
-
@Brhoom said:
%100 agree.
A perk shouldn't %100 guarantee your win during the endgame.
Just like DS and Off The Record are disabled because they shouldn't allow ''free escapes'' NWO should not activate if only one survivor is remaining.
The difference with No Way Out is you A: have to play without a perk for the entire game, and B: have to split pressure across the entire team for full value, which incentivizes a strategy that is more often than not suboptimal. Essentially you're handicapping yourself the entire game to help secure the endgame better, and by that point I think there's nothing wrong with it giving the free late-game win after a hatch close.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3215300#Comment_3215300
Please consider the MMR brackets, low mid and high. You cannot speak for everyone as we both experience differently, but as for me; it's almost every game seen multiple times.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/O4YJDFUX4QX0/image.png
According to last stats, Dead Hard is number 2 meta perk, the usage has decreased by 21% ACROSS ALL LEVELS, not specifically LOW, MID or HIGH MMR.
Speaking as a general stats usage meter across the entire playerbase of this game, yes... it's definitely lower; but targeting a specific bracket is sky-rocket still.
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread, good survivors still have an amazing use of Dead Hard and that's generally seen across the highest levels of play in this game, not many players are located there. The usage has most likely decreased all across the medium to low levels but going up where this game is heavily competitive, it's a highly used perk.
I still see it nowhere near as much and the bulk of players I face range anywhere from 1500-4000 hours. I see it on average maybe 1-2 times per game (purely anecdotally) compared to my prior of 3-4 before 6.1. And yes, I understand it is down across all levels, but its usage still dropped by around half at all levels, meaning there is most definitely some inevitable decrease in high level since it was predominantly used in high level to begin with. Even still, even if I saw 3-4 every game it's nowhere near as bad as it was before because in the majority of scenarios if you get hit by it it's relatively fair.
Not to assume I know literally anything about you, but being honest your argument of "high level survivors are still using it and maybe you just don't know" comes as a direct assumption of my skill level and IMO comes off pretty similarly to the argument I see so often on the forums, being "you don't face the comp squads I'm facing every game" which from my personal experience with people is also usually an overestimation of one's own skill level.
-
@almofan1001 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214951#Comment_3214951
1: The pick rate is not going "through the roof" considering it plummeted after the initial change and, according to the stats, still has not yet returned to anywhere near the frequency it was before.
It is 2nd most used survivor perk based on 6.10 statistics. This was after the perk was declared "dead". It's safe to assume its pick rate is even higher now. Will it reach old DH levels? Probably not, but it will still be overwhelmingly meta which is counterproductive to what the patch was supposed to achieve.
2: I already said Auto DH is both a problem and probably more commonplace than people would think, especially when you're looking at content creators that are frequently targeted by the stream sniping cheats.
Fair.
3: You're assuming people are always playing insanely focused and tryhard, and if you're using killers like Otz or other content creators as an example, that just isn't the case. They're invested in entertainment value, meaning they balance their attention between chat, commentary and the game fairly evenly. When you watch them on stream, the bulk of the time they are not investing their full attention on the game and tryharding unless they're going for challenges, like win streaks.
I mean, most of the time they know they have dead hard and they still get baited. They even tell us that DH will happen before the pallet and still get hit by it... So obviously they know most of the time (+ they're all experienced killers). So it's either extremely hard to time it, or I guess they're just bad at the game.
4: Because the scenario of someone having the exact distance required that a .5s invulnerability is enough to make a pallet is relatively uncommon, it's also fairly difficult to get practice for.
Happens in most of my games so I can't relate this from my experience. And most survivors got the hang of it pretty easily. I noticed its strength on the first day of 6.10, and even messaged my friend.
On a purely technical basis, considering you can very reliably force pallet trades if Dead Hard isn't present, then there is inherently a window during the pallet drop animation in which a survivor can still take damage. Dead Hard happening before that does not change that time window whatsoever, since all it is is swinging at the beginning of the pallet drop animation before the stun hitbox comes out.
I am not sure if you're saying this, so please correct me. Most Dead Hards are used when the survivor is about to go down from my experience. Basically, in such scenarios, there wouldn't even be a trade, it would be a down. They wouldn't use it when they are at the pallet, they would use it when they are near the pallet. In such cases they have short time window of invulnerability, which is just enough for them to get in a position to drop the pallet. So if you wait for that window out, you can swing easily. But I am pretty sure you would get still stunned because if a survivor drops pallet as you are hitting them, they always win. The only case when that is different is when your animation is about to finish, in such case you're able to get hit and/or pallet drop. But I can already tell you to achieve this you need quite a long time period which is where no counterplay comes. It's very hard to achieve it without survivor improperly timing DH.
This is the strat I'm referring to. Nobody in this game had Dead Hard but the principle is the same since they're traveling the same speed, and I didn't really feel like grinding out games until I had a chance to do it. You time the hit so that it happens between the start of the drop animation and when the actual stun hitbox comes out. The timing is tight but you can definitely do it if you wait until the last minute to swing. If you slightly mistime it/the survivor waits long enough for Dead Hard to work you can still theoretically punish them if your reactions are fast enough by deliberately missing them and bodyblocking the pallet, but that's a bit of a fringe case since that's even more difficult to pull off.
While in theory the survivor could have tried to wait for my swing and dodge thereafter, that would also put them at a slight disadvantage on the timing since I'd be closer to them by then. With this strat it's really a case of which person reads the other better IMO.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214863#Comment_3214863
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0WJOM06XYBOZ/image.png
You said
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JKHBN6K6K013/image.png
I don't think they actually did it but the community is much happier because most of it seems like had no real issue with "same perks being used 24/7 without vareity" despite "I see Dead hards 24/7" but was more like "nerf the perk is too op". Remember the 4 times a game Dead Hard as example
I think some people got the perspective of what they truly wanted, which was a nerf to make it fairer rather than an actual meta shake-up, from my point of view.
Actually in one of the dev streams they mentioned Dead Hard by name before ever announcing the 40 perk update, and directly stated that they believed it to have too much utility. In that dev update you reference they're talking about the entire 40 perk update being a meta shake-up, which is not specific to Dead Hard. And its usage rate definitely did fall a considerable amount despite it still being popular.
-
@almofan1001 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214906#Comment_3214906
Guess most good killer mains are just awful at the game since they can't time DH right.
Additionally, the perk requires super high skill for the survivor side, that's why the pick rate is going through the roof.
These two statements just don't make sense.
1: The pick rate is not going "through the roof" considering it plummeted after the initial change and, according to the stats, still has not yet returned to anywhere near the frequency it was before.
2: I already said Auto DH is both a problem and probably more commonplace than people would think, especially when you're looking at content creators that are frequently targeted by the stream sniping cheats.
3: You're assuming people are always playing insanely focused and tryhard, and if you're using killers like Otz or other content creators as an example, that just isn't the case. They're invested in entertainment value, meaning they balance their attention between chat, commentary and the game fairly evenly. When you watch them on stream, the bulk of the time they are not investing their full attention on the game and tryharding unless they're going for challenges, like win streaks.
4: Because the scenario of someone having the exact distance required that a .5s invulnerability is enough to make a pallet is relatively uncommon, it's also fairly difficult to get practice for.
On a purely technical basis, considering you can very reliably force pallet trades if Dead Hard isn't present, then there is inherently a window during the pallet drop animation in which a survivor can still take damage. Dead Hard happening before that does not change that time window whatsoever, since all it is is swinging at the beginning of the pallet drop animation before the stun hitbox comes out.
-
@almofan1001 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214863#Comment_3214863
If you want to hit someone using DH to get to a pallet now, you actually can wait it out if your timing is really precise. Since they can't drop pallets while in the animation, you time an M1 to hit at the exact moment the animation ends, and you'll end up trading with the pallet drop.
I see great killer mains still not timing it correctly, and proccing endurance all the time. Either the timing is incredibly difficult, or apparently, most (good) killer mains can't get such simple counterplay right. Hmm...
I'd like someone to actually do a video where they analyze the time window to successfully hit an M1 attack when DH is used properly at the pallet. Would settle a debate :)
The timing is fairly difficult because it requires you to react in time or otherwise anticipate the Dead Hard, but it is very possible to do (and forcing pallet trades is already commonplace otherwise) and it does give it counterplay in a situation that is already far less likely to occur given it no longer gives distance. I've done it quite a handful of times, but I've never found it notable enough to be clipworthy. If I play later today and have a chance to do it I'll post it.
And I'm not denying there are still situations in which it doesn't feel fair, like how someone can pretty much guaranteed tank a hit against Blight if he uses Lethal Rush in a dead zone, but they are much fewer and farther in-between, and most of them are concentrated onto a specific subset of already strong killers who are fairly well equipped to deal with the on-hit distance.
-
"Please remove the only strategy that prevents this killer from being unequivocally the worst in the game while I suggest zero buffs to come in its place"
-
@almofan1001 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214738#Comment_3214738
I don't see "lose-lose" situations as being fair but to each their own.
I'm a killer main and have complained about Dead Hard since I started playing during Chains of Hate. That said, I do think in the vast majority of scenarios Dead Hard is both completely fair and considerably worse than it was before. While I understand it is stronger in a few select scenarios and I think it still is good enough to be a meta perk, I see little reason to complain about it most of the time.
I think the issues some people have with new Dead Hard may be exacerbated by the sheer number of people who probably have things like auto DH and other subtle cheats that give them an advantage. Overall I think the devs did accomplish their goal, which was to make DH actually effective at its intended purpose while removing its other utility, being on-command distance and a hard counter to some killer powers.
If you want to hit someone using DH to get to a pallet now, you actually can wait it out if your timing is really precise. Since they can't drop pallets while in the animation, you time an M1 to hit at the exact moment the animation ends, and you'll end up trading with the pallet drop. It's very strong still, but for the most part it's fair.
-
How's the fishing?
-
@INoLuv said:
camping and tunneling are not issues, survivors have a hard time because of themselves, their bad plays, their bad choice of perks and lack of skill. Use kindred, turn kindred meta, simple, NOT BASEKIT. If camping gets nerfed, killers should camp and tunnel more just out of spite and punishment for being unconsiderate of the killer playerbase, but behavior is good in what they do and they would not treat killers that way.
I don't think tunneling should be made non-viable, hence why I did not propose a punishment for doing so, but instead proposed a positive incentive for not doing so.
In terms of camping, I actually used to be in the "just do gens lol" camp because survivors very much could do all the gens and escape in the past. However, with Deadlock and the increased gen times, you no longer can finish all the gens before the killer finishes camping someone to death, making it a far more viable strategy in garnering easy 2ks with certain builds, and if the survivors slip up, 3ks.
And I actually agree that survivors are largely having a hard time because of themselves. I actually did an experiment to this effect that you can read up on in another thread of mine. That said, I still strongly dislike camping as a playstyle and I also dislike that I gain nothing from going for a lot of hooks outside of maybe some sort of status as a "nice" killer that I don't really care about.
-
@KolbyKolbyKolby said:
MMR changes with number of hooks would not make the slightest difference, nobody cares about their MMR. In fact people might be more encouraged to tunnel simply to get easier games as a result.
No, you actually wouldn't be more encouraged to tunnel to get "easier games" because a 4k would still be a win regardless. I'm talking about making people gain less on a win if they got very few hooks, not making them lose MMR for it. It would also dampen losses slightly if you got a lot of hooks. You're not speaking for everyone on that. I hate that the ranking system actually punishes me for not enjoying tunneling because I think 12 hooking is a more skillful victory, and plenty of people think that way as well.
Even then, you made no mention of my other incentive of adding BBQ's BP bonus base-kit. People most definitely care about BP, especially given all the complaining that warranted the grind reduction in the first place.
-
@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3117957#Comment_3117957
And got nothing to replace it with.
Killers on the other hand received a royal feast. Massively buffed all across the board, camping was buffed, longer gens, buffed gen regression, buffed aura perks.......
Killers literally win on auto pilot now.
Buffed gen regression? Most certainly not. If you're actually going to tell me Call of Brine (which was not buffed) or Overcharge (which now starts slower than base regression) is better than an on-command 25% kick (pre-patch Pop) or 200% regression speed without a kick (pre-patch Ruin) you're just nuts. And the 2.5% base kick is barely anything. It's quite literally only 2 seconds of work to undo it. And the freshly buffed Thana was already nerfed into the ground and is now useless on every killer except Legion and Plague.
"Massively buffed across the board" with a .3s reduction in cooldown and .2s reduction in on-hit sprint? Oh no, what will we do? Don't kid yourself buddy. Hold W is still very much alive. You still get 24s of distance from an M1, and realistically Blight and Nurse are almost unaffected by that change anyway. If you're complaining that much about a minor M1 buff, stop running into massive dead zones like a fool.
Longer gens did minorly buff camping, but the fact that regression is worse on average kinda makes up for the longer gen times in every non-camping scenario.
Buffed aura perks? Are you really gonna whine about the Lethal Pursuer buff? At this point it's just sad to listen to. I try to be civil on the forums, but honestly just git gud dude.
-
@Sluzzy said:
Forfeits is representative of an extremely stale and unbalanced game. If it happens a lot. This is why devs should never dismiss DCs because it shows an underlying problem. If a player will actually DC or forfeit, it means they think the game is unwinnable and a match should never make a player feel that way.
I wholeheartedly disagree with that. The majority of my forfeits come very quickly into a match, often in my first chase if someone happens to go down just a little too fast. Quite literally the first DC I got in my data collection was off a locker grab 30 seconds into the game. The match was obviously still very winnable by that point.
Even my late-game DCs are usually in very winnable situations, with the exception of someone DCing after another forfeit. Even looking at my own stats you could see the majority of my DCs considerably shifted the tide of my matches considering a 16% difference in kill rate when factoring in those games vs. when not.
And it's not the game making people feel like it's unwinnable in the majority of cases, it's their own perception. You can't fix their perception. Most of my DCs are ragequits. Some are not, but when they aren't it's usually because someone else griefed them (i.e. bodyblocking or not saving them) at least in my experience. Those DCs are rarely representative of actual game balance.
-
@Rastabooze said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3111650#Comment_3111650
did u ever play old DS? dude... the best anti tunnel perk they´ve ever had?? like McEnroe said: You cannot be serious!
Okay, it may be a slight exaggeration when compared to OLD old DS, but compared to pre-6.1.0 5 second DS, I think OTR is just better.
-
@Oscarnator said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3113537#Comment_3113537
Well if I’m Nurse I just destroy them lol. As Blight I hit them off hook catch up in 2 seconds and down them again with 0 punishment. As Nemisis I hit them off hook and when they try vault/throw a pallet down I hit them with my tentacle since they’re probably infected already they’re going down instantly. As Huntress hatchet then down them in 2 seconds. As Trickster I knife them and keep knifing them or M1 2 seconds later to down them. As Deathslinger M1, shoot them, down. As Artist they might maybe actually get to a loop but I just place my crows and down them with those or I just M1 them after they have 0 other options since it’s a lose - lose. Clown I just bottle hit bottle hit then down. Again 0 punishment unless they’re already in a good loop. Which won’t mean much if I’m an anti loop killer or have STBFL.
Yes they have 2 health states but it doesn’t matter if you can delete those 2 health states instantly. Gens take longer, teammates are worse = no gens getting done. Chases are nerfed with the holding W being weaker and the recovery after hitting a survivor. You get less distance, even if you loop them you get less gens done even if your teammates are somehow good and know what a “gen” is. I don’t get what’s so hard to understand? Do you actually play survivor? If you’re getting tunneled regrades of perks you’re going to die. Unless you’re a comp player youre dead 99% of the time. It’s not rocket science.
Yea I know. Killers still run slowdown and survivors still run anti tunnel perks. Never said they weren’t the same. I agree with you on that. Just saying that tunneling is more effective with the 90 second gens and MMR being worse somehow on top of SoloQ getting an overall nerf.
For me I get tunneled with OTR and I die instantly beacuse like I said any mobility or anti loop killer is downing you and putting you on hook in the same breath. DS forced them to get hard punish regardless of killer. Mobility, ranged, and anti-loop killers are still obviously killing you in most situations but beacuse gen rushing and chases were a lot easier back then tunneling wasn’t as effective. Otz the killer god himself said tunneling and camping is more effective multiple times on stream and in his videos lol. OTR is good, just doesn’t do much against tunneling in this patch. Neither does base kit BT. It does absolutely nothing 99% of the time. In fact it’s even worse because instead of the killer maybe waiting those 8 seconds BT bought allowing you to get slightly more distance they know hit you immediately and down you again since you’re right in front of them and I’m not repeating how easy it is to down a survivor you’re tunneling.
Sure, but all of the things you listed you could already do before, and even more efficiently because they only had one health state as opposed to two. And I would reason that because gen slowdown perks are on average worse than before, hard tunneling is less effective because gen interrupts are more important than ever since you can't just hook the same guy twice, get two Pops after two Tinkerers, because both of those perks were nerfed heavily going into this patch. With Deadlock you might be better off, but with the extra health state I don't think those 10 seconds are a big deal.
Regardless, I think no matter what you do killers who want to tunnel will tunnel, and killers who want to camp will camp. I think there are reasonable adjustments they can make, but IMO the best solution to the camping and tunneling problem (and I will agree that it is a problem) is to add positive incentives to not doing those things, like adding BBQ's old BP bonus base-kit or factoring in hooks in MMR. Because killers and survivors know every kill and every escape is treated exactly the same according to the system, some will play as scummy as humanly possible because they know the game doesn't care.
-
@Oscarnator said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3112532#Comment_3112532
Ok? It doesn’t change the fact that it’s hard countered by almost every killer who wants to tunnel, STBFL or just hitting you instantly. But I mean sure OTR is technically better. Doesn’t really matter since in this patch it’s infinitely times easier to tunnel than the old patch. Even if OTR is the “best anti-tunnel perk” you’re gonna die faster than if you had old DS and all the other changes before the patch.
But how is it easier to tunnel if every survivor you're tunneling has 2 health states compared to 1 in the past? You are making zero sense. I would genuinely make the case that because of OTR hook trades on the rescuer are more efficient than tunneling in the vast majority of scenarios.
And regardless you aren't addressing my point that while 62% seems like a lot, it's relatively on-par with what I was getting pre-patch playing the exact same way. I'm not making a "killer OP" or "survivor OP" argument, I'm making an argument that things aren't realistically that different.
And again, you are not getting camped and tunneled every game. Some killers play that way, some don't. Acting like every killer camps and tunnels is the same thing as all the killer mains on the forum going "I face nothing but comp sweat squads!" Realistically, the stats we see are probably less than half represented by camping and tunneling, and the majority are just people playing normally.
-
@MadEyePopo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3111626#Comment_3111626
@cluxdx (OP) stated that they did not camp or tunnel. Are you suggesting those who camp/tunnel are the ones skyrocketing the kill rates? That may be true, but the OP's evidence suggests there is more quitting and forfeiting going on. I think both sides, survivors and killer, need to take ownership.
What can developer do? Re-adjust so the game can be more fun for both sides. This is a tall order but is worth putting in the effort. I congratulate BHVR for bringing in some bold changes to the game in version 6. Lessons are being learned but I hope it doesn't put a damper on stepping up and bringing in bold new ideas. Some will be detrimental but when they find the sweet spots it will be amazing.
That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. IMO while camping is stronger, it's not an effective strat to win in the vast majority of scenarios. Tunneling is in the exact same spot it was before. Point is I justified that my own kill rate was higher than normal while playing the exact way I normally do, and when adjusting for forfeits, that increase largely goes away. That's why I drew the conclusion that I did. People are like "OVER 60% KILL RATE WHILE NOT TUNNELING IS ABSURD!" and while you could certainly make that argument, my point was that is almost unchanged from my kill rate not camping or tunneling pre-patch to begin with.
-
@Oscarnator said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3112267#Comment_3112267
So you have to run a specific build and waste 3 perks slots to fix a core gameplay mechanic? Alright it could work doesn’t seem like much fun but sure?
Doesn't change the fact any mobility or ranged killer is downing you almost instantly even with OTR unless you have amazing loops near you. If they’re playing a normal killer than yea, better then DS but considering half the killer roster is anti loop good luck. Only really works against M1 killers.
Even if you got downed instantly DS forced them to either wait a minute before tunneling or 5 second stun which could more often than not get you to a loop. You couldn’t really counter it if you were hard tunneling. Now with its 3 second pillow slap to the killers face you might as well put yourself back on hook. Theoretically OTR is better but in practice it has too many counters. You can still make more plays technically with OTR but if they bring 5 second DS back I can almost guarantee less or more killer will be punished for tunneling.
But again, OTR is directly equivalent to being healthy, with the only exception being that you have to mend. If you're getting tunneled right now with OTR on the current patch, you are in an inherently better situation than you were in the past, because you are the equivalent of being healed to full pre-patch, and never even had to heal in the case you're running OTR.
And yes, specific perks have always been a requirement in this game, whether that's a good thing or not. Exhaustion perks have always been a must, as has been BT. Now instead of BT, it's OTR. Gen slowdown is still required, just now instead of Pop and Ruin it's Call of Brine and Deadlock. This patch is far more alike to how the game has always been than you think. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
-
@Ghoste said:
61.7% kill rate without add-ons and without using “dirty” tactics is actually kinda nuts. It means a sweaty player who actually brings good stuff likely averages 65-70%, which is too high imo.
Trust me, while I did not camp or tunnel necessarily I was very much sweating my ass off with my 180s and other flicks. And my build is inherently catered around seeing a gen I need to stop and going directly there, hence why I run Tinkerer. With my build, tunneling is honestly an ineffective strat because Pain Res does nothing and Tinkerer's info becomes worthless if I'm only chasing one guy.
And like I mentioned in my stats, they were padded based on the fact that a lot of games the survivors played exceptionally poorly. I had probably almost a dozen people get left to 2nd stage when I was on the complete opposite side of the map.
-
@cburton311 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3112243#Comment_3112243
90 second gen time + gen slow down, buys enough time to actually camp survivors successfully. SWF's or very efficient players can still get generators done but camping got improved dramatically this patch.
Yes, camping got improved. That does not make it a good strategy, however. You will still lose the majority of games if you camp and the survivors aren't braindead.
And the only gen slowdown that physically works while camping is Deadlock, because it's the only one that actively slows gens with no action from you. Camping inherently requires you do basically nothing.
-
@Omans said:
Didn't play optimally as killer (no camping/tunneling).
Didn't use addons, which greatly increase killer's power.
Average kill rate still much higher than 50 percent.
Hmm. Everything seems right as rain.
My goal was not to justify how high I can possibly get my kill rates, it was to justify why kill rates are higher than normal, meaning I must play the exact way I normally do to get accurate data. And you may actually want to learn a bit more about "optimal" killer play because camping is not optimal most of the time unless to secure a kill during EGC, because you're giving them free gens, and tunneling is only optimal in specific circumstances.
The idea that tunneling is always the optimal strategy across the board is not correct. And while I said I didn't tunnel, that does not mean I didn't shoot for early kills. I just shot for pressuring gens and getting a lot of hooks because, at its core, the best slowdown in the game is having someone on the hook.
This video's a pretty good summary as to why tunneling and camping are not some perfect across the board strategy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpqWii_HI-8
-
@Oscarnator said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3112243#Comment_3112243
If you’re getting tunneled how are you getting healed?
if they decide to eat BT immediately there goes your “free health state” which even if they wait out BT and hit your OTR any mobility killer will down you instantly and out you on hook. Any ranged killer is also dogging on you. Same if they play Legion or have STBFL.
That's why I said to run Resurgence or We'll Make It. Killers cannot proxy camp all the time if the survivors aren't screwing themselves over and not doing gens. As soon as the killer goes to pressure gens then gen the save and slam the heal in 8 seconds, or 4 if you have both perks. Even if you can't get healed, Off The Record by itself gives you 2 health states, which is directly equivalent to the best situation you could be in pre-patch before the OTR buff.
-
@cburton311 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/339029/why-kill-rates-are-so-high
What would the results have been had you used good addons and try harded with efficient tunnelling and camping survivors to death? I bet they'd be higher....a lot higher.
Camping is and always has been an absolute throw for the killer. Now you went from a guaranteed 1k doing it to a guaranteed 1k and maybe a shot at a 2k if you have Deadlock, NOED and/or No Way Out. If the killer gets more than 1 kill camping, it's probably because you gave them more than 1 kill.
Tunneling is in the exact same spot is was before if not marginally worse because, in my opinion, OTR is better than DS was. If a killer tunneled you through BT and every single predropped pallet in the past, DS may well only have 10 seconds left by the time you went down. Slugs you for a bit, comes back and rehooks you.
Now with OTR a survivor is essentially healthy off hook until they themselves decide to disable the effect. Better yet, have Resurgence or a teammate with We'll Make It and you can get healed to full and have 3 health states, so if you get tunneled the killer will just end up throwing and giving your team loads of gen time.
Killers who tunnel will tunnel, and killers who camp will camp. Camping is still not an effective strategy to win unless the survivors enable it, and tunneling is even riskier than before.
-
@tendyhands said:
You are counting all the times DH used to save someone and not counting all the times a different exhaustion perk now saved someone so yeah logic is completely off.
Actually I'm not. If I knew someone was exhausted (for example they used SB, Lithe or Overcome) I did not record it in my stats. I only recorded chases where an exhaustion perk was not used, and someone went down near a pallet or window.
-
@Ayodam said:
Killers recently received some QoL updates whereas survivors received nerfs. Camping & tunneling are more efficient now because of changes.
I disagree with that sentiment. While I do believe on the whole the patch was killer-sided, survivors also got the best anti-tunnel perk they've ever had in the form of Off The Record. It's practically guaranteed to buy you large amounts of time off the hook, as it gives you an effective healthy state for as long as you want it.
And while camping is marginally more effective with Deadlock now because of increased gen times, don't act like you're getting camped every game, because you're not. I've played a decent amount of survivor lately as well, and while I do get tunneled sometimes, I'm still rarely getting facecamped. And even if you do get facecamped, the killer can still only guarantee one kill. If they get another hook, save during EGC, take a protection hit, and it's a 3 man out.
And on the subject of tunneling, while it is an effective strategy while employed at the right time, it is not the most efficient strat across the board regardless of the situation. It's targeting the weak link and getting them out. But if the guy you're tunneling has OTR or is otherwise a good looper, you could throw the whole game trying to get him out because he may well waste over a minute that now 3 other survivors are using to slam gens. Tunneling is a risk, and IMO it's no more effective now than it was before.
-
@AngryHobo2 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/339029/why-kill-rates-are-so-high
I see issues with any of this tbh. It's fairly obvious to most folks that as long as all four survivors possess a functioning brain and make relatively good calls the game is a good back and forth struggle. The problem is how survivor MMR works.
Say you have bad matches with teammates with such laughably low intelligence that referring to thier intellect as "sub-brick" is a complement. Well in matches with teammates that practically kill themselves (sometimes this is more literal) the odds of escaping through the gates is far harder than it needs to be. So until you escape through the gate repeatedly, you won't get good matches, since the hatch doesn't affect MMR and death lowers it.
Honestly? If folks have awful teammates for more than 3 games today, equip Wake Up and Sole Survivor and just gate creep. Prioritize getting yourself out those doors above everything else until you get 5-10 wins a day. Do this enough times and maybe the teammates will get better.
I would agree that the survivor scoring system is a massive flaw in the game right now, and it's why a lot of good solo players end up losing a lot. If you're solo, while you should definitely save people in the hopes that the gens can get done, you will have to camp gates and wait out the hatch close quite a bit to get your MMR high enough to where your teammates aren't actively throwing.
That said, I do find it disappointing how many players I'm facing that have well over 2000 hours that just completely give up the second they go down a little too quickly or when I get 3 hooks before first gen. I can't even tell you how many games I've lost due to a slip-up followed by a great survivor comeback, yet for some reason so many players feel like every match is unwinnable. And that often goes for both sides, too. Just because you lost 3 gens for 2-3 hooks doesn't mean there's no chance you can still win, just pick a 3 gen and try and roll with it. Maybe you get 1 kill, maybe you can squeeze out 3.
Point is, this community needs to learn to keep its chin up, because it ain't over 'til it's over.
-
@TheArbiter said:
I could be wrong but I don't believe pain resonance ever worked on a blocked gen
It may not have, but I just noticed it now and it makes no sense considering it works the same as Jolt, which does. Its description does not indicate that its 15% effect should be any different than Jolt's 8%.
-
DBD's Ghostface isn't from the movies.
-
1: People generally never return the favor in my experience
2: I don't play sweaty the bulk of the time, but if I win I take the win.
3: Letting people go just means I improve but the quality of my opponents does not, and now I'm smurfing and hurting everyone else's experience in the process.
-
@xBlitzAce1989x said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3052894#Comment_3052894
No need for the sass. In fact, you didn't read my comments. I said it wasn't as though I DCed after being outplayed like some SWF's do. In a case like this it's about poor matchmaking and getting the short end of the stick.
If the killer is better than you and you DC because of it, then yes, you did in fact DC because you got outplayed.
-
How about no?
-
You can't really judge what is a "fair" chase time because it depends drastically on what killer you're playing. For example, Nurse is all 1v1. She cannot pressure a survivor without chasing them, so you should end all of your chases in under 30 seconds, ideally shooting for around 20.
On the other hand, Pinhead has a decent amount of game slowdown because of the Lament Configuration and Chain Hunt, so he has room to have longer chases. He might be fine with a chase as long as 40 seconds even during Chain Hunt because people who are on gens are slowed by the chains, and someone is more than likely off gens looking for the Lament Configuration.
Therein lies the core issue with the "fair chase" question — there are multiple different classifications of killers, and many killers fall into a combination of those various categories. As a result, there really is no one answer to your question. Generally speaking, if a killer is underperforming you have to try and extrapolate as to why; chase time is not the one core metric that determines killer balance.