Slugging Kaneki needs to go.
Every game against Kaneki is the same sh*t, Killers do this sh*t and then proceed to complaing about the anti-slug update to oblivion until it got reversed on PTB. For real, you already downed everyone, just f*cking hook so we can go to the next game, instead of forcing people to DC
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The anti-slug changes have nothing to do with this. This is a problem specific to Kaneki being super unfun to go against. The reason you see everybody slugged is that they immediately give up as soon as they realize that it’s Kaneki.
Why would they hook when the game punishes them for doing so by activating dozens of second chance perks? It actively encourages them not to hook. This isn't even counting the entire gens worth of time lost in pick up, carry, and hook animations or the risk of flashlight saves you could completely ignore. They don't really have a reason to hook.
yes lets introduce global system that will make already weak m1 roster even worse, to deal with 2 op killers in the roster because they are unfun to face against for survivors
SluggingKaneki needs to goFixed it for you
Wild people will defend this sort of unengaging misery and non-gameplay in the name of some valueless win. "Skill expression" as it's finest in the dbd community.
Speaking of skill expression
How many killers have had their kits "dumbed down" so much that they literally play themselves nowadays.
Recent Unknown buffs made it impossible to cleanse UVX in a meaningful time, making it a guaranteed hit/down, whereas it took actual skill before to get injuries/downs with the power. Now you are damned if you do, or damned if you don't against him. Counterplay got removed completely.
Bubba has a plethora of add-ons that are skilless, and promotes tunneling/slugging. Even so, the players wants more buffs.
Ghoul.. well his entire kit pretty much plays itself, and the god-forsaken cancel-tech, which makes it impossible to gain any distance.
Wesker.. again, bugs and "techs" makes him really frustrating to play against, and players abuse the hell out of him.
So the moral of this comment is that BHVR needs to look into how the killers kits can allow for actual skill expression, instead of being overly spammy and easy to get good results with.
This is what I actually loved about the last Trickster rework. Not being able to mindlessly walk you down around loops as easily, and instead rely on the knives and being rewarding for good aim with them.
I also see a similar trend with Jason's kit, where it highly rewards good aim, and creative thinking to get the hits. That is my definition of a well-designed killer power.
Again, against both Jason and Trickster, survivors has counterplay, by using the terrain to their advantage.
Yeah unfortunately you can preach something so true and you would still be disagreed with in the context of "morality" or something like wanting to win in a pvp game by adapting. While it might not be EVERY game, do people seriously want to risk others using their anti-tunnel offensively?
Which is why I like the silent down voters. Instead of blaming the current game state as to why some players play that way they blame the player.
Tons of hours in unknown here and before you only had a chance to use 2 shots before they were cleansed which was extremely punishing for trying to go for skill shots, which Is why I wished it was made to 3 shots instead of the now 4 to 5 essentially guaranteeing a down.
Bubba is in an awkward spot right now I can't really comment aside from the fact that his power rewards you significantly for slugging which sucks.
I think hug techs on Wesker were completely fine before they removed the skill from them by making them extremely easy to do without being punished. I have about a hundred or more hours on wesker and stopped playing him because his power is unbelievably easy to use now and just flat out doesn't feel rewarding anymore.
I don't like over buffing killers or making them significantly easier to play such as Unknown or Wesker as it stops people from trying to learn actually difficult killers to play that have skill shots such as artist or pyramid head
If you think uknown buffs made his uvx op then theres no help for you.
Uvx cooldown went from 7 whole seconds to 6,25 seconds, thats insane buff that makes him zone master number 1 (sarcasm).
The buffer went from 1,25 seconds to 0,75 secons so its near 1 second when you stop looking at him which didnt make him much different.
Staring uknown down each second you look at him you loose 1 second of uvc effect first hits has 10 seconds from up to 25 meters you can get rid off uvx effect.
Uknown is still very unreliable killer who has very unreliable range antiloop power that behaves very chaotic in bouncing off and explodind totaly unreliably on many structures which mades uknown resly harmless or super punishing killer who has to hit two times to get injure but compare to nemi,artist his attack is harder to hit due to projectile behaviour and is super punishing for killer. When uknown hits uvx attack he has no guarantee he will get injure with next uvx attack he is very overrated killer tbh.
But if you think otherwise sure you have some arguments for ir but I think anyone with some game sence in DBD knows uknown is very unreliable especialy against better survivors that know hot to doge and dont run in straight line without checking behind them ignoring sound cue of his attack.
It wasn't the cooldown itself that is the issue. The problem is that it takes so much longer now to get rid of it.
So either you eat the explosion, or the M1 hit now.
I face much more hillbillies slugging.
Kaneki didn't have much success with slugging against me lately.
But it is boring and unengaging experience and I wish something was toned down with this "tactic".
Its same time like first hit has 10 seconds duration and buffer is very stupid mechanic and it still gives you near 1 second of reduction to these 10, second hit adds like what 6 seconds to these 10 that reset and injures you I think.
To get rid of uknown uvx takes same time only thing they changed is buffer thats still lame mechanic that punishes killer and higly revards survivor when its not even needed, without buffer uknown would be solid killer with original counterplay and wouldnt need buffs in first place to help him from his unteliability to get injures through m2 attack.
If you miss with slinger you get punished hard but when you hit its atleast -1 health state into deep wound which is something. Artist can injure firectly with crows and her ability to hit them through walls is way more reliable then uknowns areal attack, she can just hit you with one and then use 3 to secure hit but uknown has like 2-3 shots even after buffs go secure hit and then it highly depends on map and type of loop. If you hit survivor directly as uknown you get super slowed while they dont get slowed much and you have max few shots left like 1-2 to get it right.
No killer gets punished so hard for hitting survivors as uknown and he is on top of that in most punished killers for missing survivors with his power too. His ability is very easy to doge and super hard to land. Only thing that keeps him above bottom is hid teleport which van be used in chase but again its worse mobility then onryos tvs or dreadges lockers because of how easy it is to remove them and how uknown must be spreading them plus if he stays in one area they overwright themselfs so they arent that great either.
I am 100% certain that people who go for 4 man slugs with specific builds do not even want to play DBD. They want to play a different game where Survivors only have one life (I see hook stages as lifes), but the game is not balanced around that and Survivors are too weak for that.
Whoever goes for 4 man slugs as Killer is bad and has no way in talking about "the highest level" or whatever stuff they make up.
I'm pretty sure this is actually a slugging Ghoul this person went up against. I know a lot of people don't like playing vs Kaneki, but it's really unlikely everyone just gave up in this clip before even trying, since yeah, no-hook Coulrophobia Ghoul is a legitimate build that is really difficult to deal with.
If you've never gone against it, I am legitimately envious of you and hope that you never have to. I'm more positive about facing Ghoul than most but no-hook Ghoul is awful.
It's not just Ghoul though. Blight and Hillbilly can also both do it and are probably better at it and it's unpleasant against them, too.
Well except for all the killer perks which activate off of hooking people, plus the slug-only playstyle comes with its own unique frustrations.
Like if you can't keep control of the survivors and/or they're actually running anti-slug builds, it's really hard to make any headway. Like yeah you don't have to deal with Decisive Strike and Dead Hard, but you might have to deal with We're Gonna Live Forever + Made For This on multiple survivors. Also you have to snowball or you will most likely lose hard, there's no in-between like a 2k or something.
It's a playstyle that's propped up by the fact most people aren't running the very specific builds which counter it, since if the killer isn't doing it then you're basically playing perklesss. Also Coulrophobia, if that perk ever gets nerfed to not apply its effect to people being picked up from the downed state then it becomes a lot less viable.
Also, it's only really viable on Blight, Ghoul, and Hillbilly, since they're the only ones with the lethality and map traversal strong enough to keep on top of survivors who are helping each other up over and over, with a terror radius big enough to apply Coulrophobia and trigger Infectious Fright. Other killers can do it, of course, but it's much weaker on them.
just what i expect from a thread about Kaneki
Exactly, the specific Slugging-Build works on Ghoul, Blight and Billy since they have 40m Terror Radius. Add DIstressing to that, which turns the Terror Radius to 52m and you can basically be anywhere on the map and healing is slower due to Coulrophobia. Infectious Fright makes it even more difficult. And there is not really any way to avoid it, because if you pick someone up, you need to be close to that person.
The "funny" thing is that those people who are against Anti-Slugging to prevent something like that will be the first one to complain when weak Perks like Coulrophobia or Distressing get nerfed because they are only used in such an unhealthy way.
"if theirs one thing DBD needs, its more Kens. Can you imagine dbd without ken?"
I'll keep repeating it but they should try test the 2v8 anti-slug in 1v4 but base it around exhaustion or a unique CD that can be tuned.
I feel it's the perfect amount of agency for both sides regarding slugging, a good enough deterrent for extreme slugging instances. Because Abandon rn is encouraging killers to do it for an easy win, hense the usual offenders championing it rn.
I'd love fresh hook incentives though for killer too, that would be nice as a compromise.
Depends on what from 2v8 like escapist has 20 seconds cooldown so he can up way more often then medic who has 90 seconds.
For survivor getting ability to get up after 90 seconds alone without anything flashy is ok I would say, 90 seconds is reasoneable time or 100 seconds because survivor bleeds out in what 3-4 minutes thats 180-240 seconds but the antidlug that were there so basekit unbreakable with normal unbreakable time or faster ctawl speed plus automatic tevovery were too much.
We can take out certain playstyles where killer cant hook and slugging is only way for him to deal with it or survivors gathering in small area theres only slugging as punishment so if you nerf slugging too much then killers counter to these situations and playstyles becomes very limited or even unuseable to certain point which creates new problems from abusers of meta which is majority of people playing DBD just remember mft, FTP+BU or the time where survivors could run into lockers and killer couldnt hit then. How many people used these meta perks or abused these exploits? I rember lot of people did so overdoing obe thing creates another problems.
To killer getting rewards in fresh hook again great thing that should already happen, people like truetalent spoke about this like in 2021/22 when devs slept. We had two scenarios one gave too much (barbeque and chilli plus weaker pop and hsste) and then second one where killers got haste in form of limited (super extreamly limited) bloodlust that vast majority of killers didnt bendfit from at all.
that's exactly it, we need something that gives sort of an answer but doesn't have protection etc, so it can still be punished and reset if used badly.
If it was tied to exhaustion then they also couldn't just SB away and get out for free either. There is a lot of situations where killer has to slug, and we need to respect that as you say, like under a pallet, or flashlights or DS. It only needs to be an opportunnity to punish extreme cases without any perks, coz abandon is a terrible way to do it.
Plus I personally feel if we had an option like this, we'd have an excuse to come after META builds with lots of second chance with a more healthy system that gives said chance in the worst case scenario, but it's not super abuseable. We can definately be testing to have the best of both worlds, for both sides and make the game less frustrating, and keep matches going.
Yeah they essentially push for a state of the game that creates the exact gameplay they dislike.
So you're correct there are many of those perks for killer as well. The problem is that most those perks have been nerfed extensively over and over and over to the point where the pros/cons list of what you get from hooking vs what they get has tilted further and further to where it's now not nearly as worth. Disproportionate value basically.
I agree hard slugging is very difficult especially if they have anti slug. Not that you said this, but many like to call hard slugging as a way to win if you're bad at the game which I very much disagree with. In general winning from a 4 man slug is very difficult as it requires a high amount of skill to juggle everyone. However if you're a good player I do think it's the better route. If you're not a really good killer then it's still probably not. Killer dependent as well. The more and more punishing hooking has become though it's becoming more and more the better route. In general if a group is getting 4 man slugged they were either significantly worse players than the killer or they made many, many mistakes. It isn't just something that an average player is going to see lots of success with, especially if the survivors are of equal skill.
I actually run full slug builds on multiple killers you didn't mention very effectively. Namely Knight and Sadako, who also are both considered very low tier killers by most the community. By effective I mean a 165 win streak on Onryo and a 207 winstreak on Knight (this one's still going). There are more factors that make this play style good than just lethality and map traversal. Onryo it's the additional side objective they're having to manage while also juggling pick ups and gens. It becomes a lot, especially if you also throw in a hex build for a fourth objective to juggle. Knight is extremely good at it because for one he has Grim Iron Mask for 75 second Blinds that you can aggressively spam which is essentially a perma blindness on the entire survivor team. Even with swf's on coms it slows down their pick ups a ton with just a bonus of turning off all aura perks which are popular. Secondly, being able to permanently keep 2 people in chase all game is massive. That means if even 1 survivor is down that means the entire team is off gens. I'm chasing one, guard on another and last is looking for pick up. If you ever have 2 down, they are one mistake from gg, since if I have 2 down and a get a guard on one and I find the other, it's over. Throw on top of this Town Watch's Torch and I'm also essentially perma Undetectable all game as well. Just pointing out that it works on more killers than you'd think. While Coulrophobia is good for what you're talking about, it's not even needed. I don't run it on any of my slug builds.
You - killer is miserable
Also you - I have a 165 winstreak and a 207 game winstreak on "weak" killers
Maybe someday you will realize that those statements don't line up with each other.
Here's four incredibly skilled players losing to a four man slug without making many many mistakes while playing sweaty in a SWF. Its group copy cat so they don't have full control of their builds but they have an expo boon and exhaustion on everyone. WGLF, Made for This, Unbreakable and the like would have helped of course but you can't prepare for every tactic the killer can choose to employ. Expectations of how skilled survivors must be are simply ridiculously high in this game.
I think they want to exploit an easy tactic that most people aren't prepared to counter. I just don't really understand why, aside from this unstoppable thirst to win at all costs. To me, if you don't want to engage with a proper match or treat your opponents as humans, why not play a pve? I'm convinced some people in this game have no motivation greater than making strangers feel bad. Which is why I find any mention of skill expression while I see endless cheese in my survivor matches comical.
And then they just blame perks, because God forbid your opponents have perks. I do find it particularly funny that the same people who said "just bring perks" about tunneling are now saying "just slug" to avoid those perks even being usable.
Did I say killer was miserable? Or did you just fill in the blanks with what you thought fit.
Second, I also referenced streaks playing in ways that avoid things that someone might deem "miserable" per your words.
So yes, they do line up if you understand what I "actually" said, not a strawmanned version.
You - Proceeds to show a literal Blight game of slugging to back up their point rofl. This is like using Nurse to talk about game balance when Nurse doesn't play the same game everyone else is. Yes, we all know Blight is an exception to all rules just like Nurse. This shows literally nothing. If it were up to me I'd nerf the S tier killers even.
Potential controversial take here, but
If people want full slug strats and builds to stay, then the bleedout timer has to go.
There are so many games where the survivors are actually pushing back and countering the strat but they lose anyway because someone bleeds out after being on the floor too long.
I know the bleedout timer was originally an anti-griefing mechanic to stop survivors being held in the dying state permanently, but with the abandon feature being a thing now it's not really necessary. Just add 'If a survivor is in the dying state for x amount of time, they can abandon'. Problem solved
If people want to ignore the hooking portion of the game, they shouldn't be getting kills out of it unless they manage to down everyone at once.
they hated him for speaking the truth… watching Hens abuse anti-camp and how much pressure you can create with slugs vs unhooked survivor who just activated 3 super strong perks. Krause is seems to be like significantly stronger slugging too, survivors lose infection on hook but keep it when slugged and head form is 40 metre terror radius for claurophobia. Extremely funny this got more downvotes then upvotes, devs need to incentive hooking base kit more because I've given ultra slug builds a shot and its lowkey soooo good on the already great killers but meh on the killers that need help.
Buff sprintburst
So you think it's completely fair, balanced, and acceptable to have something in the game that allows three digit winstreaks, a thing that should not be possible?
SB does not need a buff, keep it as it is
edit: i just realized that may be sarcasm and if it is im sorry, im bad at detecting that
I have seen enough of your comments about how much killers struggle for it to be a fitting statement, even if you haven't used that exact term.
I don't see you mentioning avoiding anything, just that you play full slug builds, no strawman here just exactly what you said. If that isn't what you intended to state maybe you should proofread a bit more.
I don't see any caveats on your statement of it not working against good players and you even go into detail about how much success you have doing it on Knight and Sadako, clearly not S tier killers. The video shows four good players losing to a four man slug. You not accepting it as evidence is just further proof of how unreasonably high the expectations are on survivors.
The downvotes don't surprise me, these forums have been heavily biased for a very long time. I'll speak the truth regardless, i dont mind the downvotes.
You're attributing winstreaks to slugging instead of the skill of the player.
Surely if it's only about skill, then that means people who go on winstreaks and are not using full slug strats are more skilled then? Because they actually have to deal with and play around the strongest perks in the game?
Which, if you factor that in, does technically make full slugging strats easier than playing normally. Meaning cogsturning's point still holds up imo
That's your interpretation, not reality.
I literally did mention avoiding things, like literally lol. I proofread quite extensively, you just read what you want to see rather than reading it for objectively what it actually is.
I think you should read my posts again. As before, I did literally give caveats of it not working against good players. Like again, literally. I stated that it's only working if the survivors are significantly worse or making many, many mistakes.
I also think it's obvious to the majority of the dbd community that when we talk about balance killers like Nurse or Blight are complete exceptions to all rules and statements as they break the games balance. People don't usually need to add "except Nurse and Blight, I'm not talking about for these killers", it's a given.
I don't think someone understands DBD balance well at all if they think expectations are high on survivors in its current state. It's about as hand holdy as its ever been in the history of dbd.
A skilled player can 2 hook everyone before killing and win. You're using Blindness and Undectectable, two uncounterable status affects, and slugging, which also has no basekit counters. And all of these are specifically anti-soloq tactics, and ones that people dont see coming because they expect a normal round. That's cheese. Cheese and bad matchmaking are the only reason winstreaks are possible, and that's exactly why both need fixing.
Not of equal skill or unless being on an S tier killer. I disagree as a general sentiment for the vast majority of the roster bar the survivors just having an exceptionally bad game.
Yes, they are counterable. They're just simply more counterable with a swf on coms, which the game isn't balanced for anyway.
It's not cheese, it works on lots of swf as well. Full slugging takes more skill than not full slugging. I think tunneling is cheese which is why I don't do that, I think it takes skill out of the game. Slugging does not take skill out of the game, I'd even argue it adds more.
Matchmaking is bad I agree.
Winstreaks mainly work though because the majority of players aren't very good on both sides.
Not exactly. Most win streaks not slugging are tunneling, which I would consider cheese and is removing skill from the game. I'd say juggling 4 survivors without the benefits from hook related perks takes more skill than eating through some anti tunnel to make it a 1v3 asap. Your having to take the strongest perks in the game but that is offset by the ease you're gaining of the 1v3.
It does not, I don't agree with your interpretation for the reasons above.
You claim that hard slugging is difficult and go on to say you think its the better strategy for a good killer. I still don't see you saying anything about avoiding this. You literally mention having streaks going for hard slugs, are you arguing against yourself?
And again I show four incredibly good survivors losing to a full four man slug without making many many mistakes. If you consider these four players bad survivors your expectations of how good a survivor must be are factually unreasonably high.
While I agree that blight and nurse are exceptions to most rules you go out of your way to describe yourself being successful full slugging on killers that are not blight and nurse.
And there it is, the survivor is being handheld commentary. All while having triple digit winstreaks on killer, lol.
Nothings arguing against itself here. I think if a killer is very good slugging is the better strat, depending on the killer anyway. For most killers its not though.
I've already explained this. Your example video is meaningless for the point here. Blight is an exceptions to all general rules. He is an exception to most statements, similar to Nurse.
Correct, and I explain this discrepancy based on skill.
You act as if this statements brought up randomly. It was only mentioned in response to your statement of "unreasonably high expectations on survivors". I simply disagreed and extrapolated why. As a general statement a game can be heavily biased in terms of balance against one side and the "weak" side still do very well when piloted correctly. Those aren't mutually exclusive. Exceptions don't make the rule. That would be like saying excessive sugar intake doesn't cause diabetes because I know someone who ate it excessively their whole life and didn't get diabetes. The rule is still true just because exceptions exist, especially when talking about something like a game with flexible variables like skill.
I do kind of agree with you about it being much harder on lower tier killers, you are correct about that.
But if you call tunnelling cheese, then I gotta say bleedout kills are cheese too then by your own logic.
If the survivors are playing well and not getting 4 man downed - even in that scenario the Killer is going to be constantly knocking them down over and over. Eventually, you just win because someone bled out and boom you're now in the 3v1 just like someone being tunnelled.
You can say it takes longer, but sluggging strats are strong because of how much pressure and time they take away from survivors on gens. Someone being tunnelled can still buy a lot of time for their team with their chases (against most of the roster). Compare that to just being left on the ground, unable to do anything and having to wait for a pickup.
Though I want you to understand my perspective is founded on my experience against bleedout killers as a Solo Q main. I've beaten full slug killers before and the only ones to usually win are Blight's running stuff like infectious, coulrophobia, distressing and double speed (The so called speedrun build). AND EVEN THEN the match still takes like 10+ minutes.
Meaningless because you have decided it doesn't count as evidence based solely on the killer being played and nothing else. I think you just have an outsized opinion on how good you are at the game. I think I am pretty meh at killer and have a 65% win rate (not kill rate) in the past 30 days, playing primarily as unknown and huntress.
So, since exceptions don't make the rule, that means the game is factually killer sided based on kill rates, win rates, and every other stat we have ever been given, right? Which means survivors cannot be getting handheld since the killer is favored.
The only time this game becomes survivor sided is when its four survivors who are all extremely good and playing in extreme coordination with each other while practicing together practically daily. This is an exception not a rule and if you need to go that far to consider a survivor good then your expectations are factually unreasonably high.
So maybe you have a different definition of cheese than I do. To me cheese is something removing skill from the game to achieve your desired result. Tunneling is forcing the 1v3 as fast as possible which to me removes skill from the game. Slugging is requiring more skill with how much you're juggling. Which is also why I only say its better on specific killers and if the killer is actually very good. Any average killer or below skill wise its not going to be better. If it was cheese and removed skill I'd simply recommend it on most players, but most players are not able to win 4 slugging, and that's because it is requiring more skill. I also wouldn't specific saying "bleeding out", the goal isn't bleeding out even though that "can" happen. The game ends on 4 down. IE as soon as 4 are down I immediately am hooking them all. The goal isn't to be toxic and watch people bleed. It's just efficiency.
If they are consistently getting downed over and over with so much pressure that none of them are on gens they are not playing well. This is not happening against good survivors unless you're on an killer that's an exception to the rules like Nurse, Blight, ect. Speaking of the general killer population here. "boom you're now in the 3v1" This is acting as if this is fast, that is a long bleed out timer. Way longer than it would take someone say tunneling someone out. Not the same.
Slugging strats do generate good pressure, that's their pro. Their con is they're high risk. If the killer isn't skilled enough to actually score the 4 down, they've gained nothing. The bleed out is so long they should have the gens long done by this point. So I wouldn't really consider 1v3 a point in the scenario.
And I appreciate the calm conversation we are having on it. As you can see in other posts here most let their emotions get the best of them and are coming at me significantly more aggressive/insulting instead of just a normal conversation like ours. As you mention here though it's usually not working unless it's an S tier killer and even then it's rough. That's because it takes a lot of skill. For the record I primarily play solo queue for survivor as well and I don't personally mind this play style. It usually doesn't work for them. I even have more time on survivor than killer.
Yeah, the vast majority of the dbd playerbase would also disregard any evidence of balance using Blight as an example lol. This is pretty normal and standard.
Do you know the stats? Because they do not support this statement. Also the stats do not take into account a multitude of factors that skew them anyway to not be very reliable. Hooks rates would probably be a significantly better metric, generally speaking, even though that has some flaws as well but at least less.
I just completely disagree on your standard for when the game is survivor sided. The only time I think the game is killer sided is in a full solo queue match and on one of the more balanced maps like Coal Tower.
To clarify, my definition of cheese is around the same as yours. Catching a survivor the first time? That takes skill. Repeatedly downing them when they are stuck injured and are constantly being forced to sit and wait? There's no skill involved in that. Being downed one time shouldn't mean you're basically out of the game until everyone else is down. Hooking at least is a time investment on the Killer's part, has built in counters for camping and like you mentioned triggers perks that help keep them in the game.
I am aware that 'bleeding out' isn't the goal of the strat, but if the survivors don't immediately fold to it - that's inevitably what happens unless the Killer really messes up and overcommits to someone (Which they typically don't do in my experience, proxying their slugs is more effective).
Alright, about the playing well thing - can you really argue that a Killer doing this strat and NOT downing all 4 survivors is playing well, then? I mean - your endgoal is to 4 man slug then hook everyone and if you can't do that, then are you playing well? Or are you gonna get bailed out by the inevitable bleedout/survivors just abandoning? This is why I argued the removal of bleedout, to remove this 'bailout' for lack of a better word.
As for the 3v1 thing - if you want to really get into the nitty gritty - you are CONSTANTLY making the match a 3v1 by slugging. Survivors on the ground cannot do anything, they are effectively out of the game until picked up. Then let's say you down another survivor while the first one is still recovering, now it's effectively a 2v1. I'm not sure how you can say this isn't the same as tunnelling it achieves the same thing just a different route.
I appreciate the conversation as well, truth be told I don't really mind full slug strats either because I know counters to it. I've routinely been BMed and W/S'd by Bleedout blights because I make their life miserable by constantly jumping into lockers in the far corners of the map. It's pretty amusing.
Every official stat we have ever been given has shown the killer being favored. The last time we got 4 man high mmr escape rates it was 48%, that is the killer winning more often. Or how about the ones that showed the number of matches where all gens were completed, 49% leaving killers with a minimum win rate of 51%. If 2k's happen even 10% of the time that leaves survivor win rate at 39%, killer sided.
Hook rates? You go for a full four man slug which would show a hook rate of 4 or less. Regardless of the number of times survivors have been hooked more than two of them dying is the killer winning, it doesn't matter how we got to that place especially if any change to make hooking more beneficial leaves those strategies intact.
You can't argue exceptions don't make the rule and then turn around and say but not in this case. Your opinion fails in the face of all real stats.
I suppose your scenario is implying a killer camping around the slugged guy just repeatedly downing him as soon as he rises. Yeah that would be cheese, but is not what I'm describing at all or what is generally happening in full slug matches from my experience. You're juggling multiple survivors so they typically aren't sitting on top of one to instantly redown them. Your scenario is almost a pseudo tunnel that's extremely dragged out and avoiding anti tunnel perks, of which I don't think is the reality of what generally happens. You're typically just being refound again later after getting up. So no skill is removed in this case.
In my slug matches and the ones I face they are not typically proxying the slug as this is losing them the game. As essentially then the survivors are just getting an extremely long hook timer to pump gens so they win. You can't really slug proxy to win. This is losing them the game if they do. What I see and do is completely leaving the person and just go straight for the next the next the next across the map. Hypothetically in your proxy scenario yes I'd agree that's cheese and removing skill, I just don't think that's the reality of what happens generally, nor does it win them the game, nor is it the play style I'm defending here.
Yeah if you can't seal the 4 down before bleedout then I'm failing and not playing well enough. Although generally if I'm playing this badly and not closing out then the game has drug on significantly longer to where they've had way more gen time and they're probably winning. If we're getting close to bleedout times then I'd say the survivors are probably also failing if the gens aren't done by that point. Especially given with a build like this you're lacking gen regression if any at all. The build isn't built for a drug out match that long.
If we're going to simply "1v3" to include someone out of the ground then now we're saying someone on the hook is also a 1v3, which I wouldn't say it is. I think that's stretching the definition a bit. Also that "1v3" is requiring lots of juggling and macro gameplay. Just tunneling someone out into a 1v3 is now a 1v3 without any skill required, it's just a default 1v3. I don't think those are the same basically. One is requiring skill to maintain the lower numbers and one is not.
Yeah I would not condone any toxic behavior like intentionally letting people bleed out after the match is over. I always end the game as soon as possible. I personally would always rather be slugged than hooked. I have more chances at life and can at least do something on the ground, as opposed to being on the hook where I literally can't do anything. Something is objectively more fun than nothing.
The game "balance" state that is aimed for is 60% KR. We are significantly below that. 60% KR is what they consider balanced.
I thought I said it enough but I'll type it again. There are issues with going by hook metrics as well, such as slugs, but it still fixes a lot more issues that arrive from going by kills. I don't understand why we bring up exceptions to why going by hooks is bad when I literally just typed that there were exceptions already, just that there are simply less than kills.
I don't know how more simply I can explain this. Even the flawed stats support my statements.
You simply state that hook rates have flaws, if we are going to consider if they could be a better metric we need to explore what those flaws are and here we have a scenario showing how they would be a significantly worse metric than kill rates, that is relevant.
Prove that we are not at the aimed for 60% KR, prove that we are significantly below that with real data. You can't because it doesn't exist.
No stats support your statements, you are just making things up and claiming it as truth.
We already were given stats on slugging by the devs and know it's an extremely small percentage of matches meaning the impact on hook stats by slugging would be very small.
Given bhvr is very hesitant to ever give us stats the only stats we have to really go by are Nightlight which are consistently month after month after month with the majority of killers in the 40%'s and basically none coming close to 60%. Now even if we go by the older official stats that YOU gave, that puts them at a 52% kill rate, far below the balance goal. So even the numbers that you used you've proven that they are below the balance goal. So you countered your own argument.
I think I've shown otherwise.
These stats are unreliably anyway tbh though as I mentioned before. They're skewed by a multitude of metrics. So going by their stats no matter who it supports probably isn't useful.