From the AMA, seems the Killer experience is irrelevent
As long as they hit “Find Match.” From the AMA.
”Q: For the Twins rework, what does "adjust the slugging meta" mean?
A: First off - definition. Slugging = downing survivors without picking them up and hooking them (leaving them on the ground and rushing off to down more survivors). We've noticed that for many players the optimal way to play with the current Twins kit is to slug survivors heavily with Victor. This isn't a very fun playstyle for survivors as you end up spending a lot of time on the ground not able to do anything. SO - the Twins update will change the kit to encourage other kinds of play styles more. -Mike”
From the new AMA. Twins have been bugged forever, severely hindering the Killer experience. BHVR don’t care.
When all 3 Twins mains are bothering Survivors, NOW it’s a problem. Other kinds of play styles? Probably going to start playing another Killer. Options will be increasingly limited as Killers continue to be gutted. Huntress next.
Comments
...Eh?
Isn't it pretty commonly stated that people don't like playing Twins because they don't like feeling forced into slugging as often as they kinda have to in order to utilise that kit properly? Wouldn't BHVR pretty obviously also be replacing that need to slug with other options, thus improving the killer experience substantially?
Also, what're you on about by saying they "don't care" about Twins being bugged, too? This question wasn't about that, and we already know they've been working on the Twins update for over a year now. Every killer update so far has had bug fixes in it too, if I remember correctly, and there's no way on this earth the most bugged killer in the game won't have at least some of those bugs addressed in their update.
This is a giant reach, you're taking a question very specifically about just the slugging aspect of the Twins update and you're trying to make it sound like slugging is the only thing being addressed and the only reason for the update.
Yeah I'm definitely out of the picture on this one. One killer less in their game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Options will be increasingly limited as Killers continue to be gutted. Huntress next.
That very much remains a possibility and it is concerning. Freddy, Hillbilly and Deathslinger learned the hard way what can happen to a character and I really don't want Huntress players to go through that.
BHVR didn't say they were going to give Twins a better option than slugging. It's possible they are just going to heavily nerf slugging, so that Twins are forced to not slug as much. Or maybe they'll heavily nerf slugging, and give Twins a tiny buff somewhere else, and try to tell everyone that Twins are "more fun to play" now.
Victor can't pick up survivors, which is why Twins are forced to slug so much. And if BHVR nerfs slugging, but doesn't give Twins a fair alternative (e.g. Victor can pick up survivors), then Twins will be unfun to play, and much worse than they are currently.
The absolute disregard and perhaps disdain for the Killer experience is quite troublesome. They really seem to not care about the people who main Killer.
I used to run Twins a lot until I realized this was pretty much the most optimal play. Once I realized it, I got bored and swapped to undetectable killers. I know the devs can be tone-deaf on a lot of changes but this makes sense to me, and I can only hope they fix bugs along the way.
That’s exactly what I think they will do. Glad others see it too. With Trickster it was he is faster and has no recoil, but now throws paper airplanes. Fun!
Both bait and us vs them.
Incredible.
They specifically point out the most optimal way of playing Twins is via slugging, which is frankly, unrewarding for both the Killer and Survivor. They then state that they wish to change their kit to give them other ways to be played viably.
Only someone intent on misrepresenting their words could've gotten, "BHVR hates Killers and disregards all their feedback, they favor Survivor Etc etc"
^ this.
Twins are very unpopular, despite being a very strong Killer, simply because most people dont want to play them in such a way. It is boring to slug Survivors for so long, because you basically have to play this way, since switching back to Charlotte after downing a Survivor with Victor might result in the Survivor already being picked up.
And while it is true that slugging with Twins is not a playstyle Survivors enjoy, it is quite clear that it is also a playstyle Killers dont enjoy. Because otherwise Twins would be seen more often, especially because they are far from weak.
That being said, OP has a history of being overly negative. Just look at OPs post and you see that they are all negative.
Maybe they'll remove the weird pause that prevents you from swapping from Victor back to Charlotte. Maybe also give Charlotte a short haste boost after swapping so she can go pick up the slug a little quicker?
But since they've put the Twins on the roadmap, perhaps there could be a much more extensive rework on the cards. I guess we'll find out.
It takes a really narrow POV to think they're only catering to survivors here. The Twins have a pick rate of, what, 0.6%? They're not winning a popularity contest among killer players. If you're out there searching for any perceived slight at killers, I guess you might think that because they said they want to discourage slugging. But I don't think a reasonable reading of their response would lead someone to believe that they don't care about the killer experience. They are not out to get killer players. I promise.
That's not what BHVR said at all. The direct quote is "change the kit to encourage other kinds of play styles more", which doesn't promise Twins getting anything as a better option. It could very well mean that the change is mostly a big nerf to slugging, and Twins will be encouraged to slug less because slugging is getting nerfed.
Given some of the recent reworks, I think there's a good reason why many are more skeptical about the changes being good for the killer.
thank you for understanding what we mean, this is it exactly!
Several killers have received tweaks but only Skull Merchant and Onryo have been more thoroughly reworked; as in their powers have been modified drastically. And both of them are stronger than they were before. I’d say those are great changes for the killer. Maybe when you’re thinking about how BHVR is gonna rework the twins, you should consider those examples. (:
A lot of old Onyro players don't like the new Onyro. Being stronger isn't the only thing that matters to the players of killers.
Trickster is also the most recent one and I don't think anyone had anything good to say about it.
Also Trickster, he's insanely strong now.
This is very true, especially with Onryo - which is another question we addressed in the AMA regarding the Onryo update. We completely understand that many players liked the playstyles associated with the original Onryo and did not like those being removed with the recent update. Hence we're looking at how to build those back in whilst still keeping her strength.
I hope they take a best of both approach (and it sounds like they are). I actually like playing her more now. She feels like much more of a threat, maybe a bit too much, if I'm honest. It's a little too easy for her to build condemned.
But Survivors just ignored her tapes before the rework and I really don't want to go back to that.
Maybe when you’re thinking about how BHVR is gonna rework the twins, you should consider those examples. (:
There is Hillbilly though.
This memory doesn't go away just because some time has passed.
There’s 0 chance that the Twins will be strong after the rework.
If BHVR is planning on giving Twins a better option than slugging, they could just tell us. They wouldn't have to go into detail of what the change would be, but they could at least give us the peace of mind that they want to actually give Twins a better option than slugging.
Well they think that the base game with the numerous broken tiles and impossibly large maps is balanced, so I’m not hopeful.
Considering the mentioned viability in the same answer, I think you have to be willfully ignorant to think that they don't intend to give them other good playstyles.
Now, to be clear, I make no promises on the RESULTS, only the intent.
The least noisy cry in history, since it has even been three years.
Do you live and thrive on semantics?
If the RESULTS are Twins getting a heavy nerf to slugging, and not having a better alternative, then the rework will be garbage.
"This isn't a very fun playstyle for survivors as you end up spending a lot of time on the ground not able to do anything" This isn't about killers not liking how the twins play its about survivors not liking how the twins play and they flat out stated it in their answer + twins have been plagued with horrible bugs since release and BHVR completely has ignored pretty much all of them, only nerfing Twins over and over and over.
Didn’t they also nerf Victor’s interaction with a dropped pallet by increasing the distance he had to be from the pallet to pounce over it?
I guess Victor jumping across pallets to down Survivors was too gamebreaking.
It's getting old at this point.
I grow tired of pointing it out.
But why are you and OP pretending that the question was about why they decided to change the Twins? The question was specifically about the slugging element of the Twins changes, it's not about the killer update as a whole. Sure, survivors like slugging less, but that doesn't actually mean anything about the Twins update as a whole and it's worth pointing out that killers also don't like how slug-heavy the Twins are.
Plus, again, I have to point it out a second time, they've been working on this update for over a year. We know they've been looking at Twins for quite a long time at this point, they haven't been ignoring anything.
I mean, their response to the solo survivor experience was pretty much 'too bad, so sad', so I feel like the fact that they're actively working on killers and taking on feedback is a positive thing.
Tbh I highly doubt they've been working on this for over a year. They entirely reworked Skull Merchant in less than a few months and they said Twins changes were coming...who knows how long ago. Not to mention them blatantly ignoring Twins bugs, some of which were gamebreaking for the killers. So yeah its understandable why people don't have hopes for the Twins rework or thing BHVR only addresses survivor issues (because they flat out have)
I still believe that Twins would have been the perfect candidates for Coop Killers.
Effectively doubling their playerbase.
not just ignoring gamebreaking bugs for months, but INSTANTLY removing bug, that made playing Twins much more enjoyable (PTB character switch bug, it didn't even reach live)
It could very well mean that the change is mostly a big nerf to slugging, and Twins will be encouraged to slug less because slugging is getting nerfed.When have they ever said/done 'we're going to adjust x killer' and then accomplished that by altering a base mechanic.
They wouldn't have to go into detail of what the change would be, but they could at least give us the peace of mind that they want to actually give Twins a better option than slugging.Why do you presume they know for sure what they are going to do? They very well might be working out / playing around with different options. If the changes were all set in stone then they could put them into the game tomorrow.
If the RESULTS are Twins getting a heavy nerf to slugging, and not having a better alternative, then the rework will be garbage.If the results are twins getting a heavy nerf to slugging, and having a better alternative, then the rework will be great.
Every single time BHVR makes a change to the game there is the possibility it will make the game worse. That's the nature of change and BHVR has a mixed bag on changes. I'll wait to see the changes proposed to see what it looks like, but if they wanted to make changes to slugging then that would be the thing on the roadmap.
BHVR sometimes doesn't understand how their game works, see DM and other times they do, see Wesker or Chucky.
I do think they intend to not nerf or buff Twins, their power level is fine. They're just not fun to play as or against
Twins are currently unplayable, because Victor keeps hitting invisible walls in the middle of the air.
If slugging is heavily nerfed, but Twins aren’t given a better alternative option, then Twins will be even less fun to play.
Interestingly, they did somehow break Victor's hitbox. I think it was an accidental spaghetti code thing. It happened at the same time that they broke Huntress. It also doesn't feel like it was done on purpose. His pallet interaction is super glitchy and inconsistent, and at the same time he started bonking on things behind and to his left and right even if they're off screen. Add that to the fact that he started hitting invisible walls when you jump from a high place, there's just no way this was on purpose. They also never said anything about updating this, and they have been pretty good about telling us what changes they make. I have to believe they wouldn't push through a stealth nerf that just glitches the killer on purpose. I do however believe they aren't going to fix it or do anything until the rework. (I'll come back update this and admit I'm wrong if they do.)
They have to keep those killrates high somehow or else all Killers will have Nemesis Kill rate
right now.
Is this from BHVR?
We were talking about recent reworks. Hillbilly wasn’t recently reworked.
Yeah, but his change is so infamous that it doesn't just stay in the past.