Stop hard tunneling.
No I'm not complaining about tunneling in general, i tend to be understanding of the concept. The thing I have an issue with is the worst kind of tunneling. Standard tunneling is whatever, if you find a double hooked surv and a no hook surv on a gen, you have a choice and the double hooked surv is the tactical choice every time. I'm talking about hard repeatedly tunneling the same surv off hook to the exclusion of all others straight off the bat. Heck I'm not even that fussed about tunneling straight off hook if it's done mid-late game.
It's this situation. Killer gets their first hook after a realtively short chase, realises that surv is mid/weak at chase. Killer then proxy camps said hook, maybe they manage to force the surv to stage, then as soon as the surv is unhooked, they hit them off hook and commit to the exclusively chase them again down them quickly rinse repeat. You get one survivor dead at 4-5 gens left. That one survivor has no chance to play the game, and the rest of the team is screwed because the game is not supposed to be a 3v1. We've all had games like that.
There has to be a system where the game can recognise that the killer is focusing out one player to the exclusion of all others. In the specific situation where you have 2 hooks on the same player, 0 hooks on anyone else and they are chasing the 2 hooked player there should be some kind of game intervention. Something that stops this kind of play dead. Peehsps a system where the surv on taking the second hit straight off of hook gets teleported to thebopposite side of the map and insta hesled or just invincibility or invisibility that gets cancelled if the killer hooks another player or if a survivor struggles out (obvs I wouldn't want to see survs abusing a mechanic like this for free bodyblocks) this would give the tunneled surv an opportunity to get out of the killer's sight and have a chance to heal and actually try to counter play by going stealthy so they can still achieve something in the match.
Normally it's fairly rare but I've seen an uptick in this kind of play from killers over the last couple of weeks, probably killers getting tilted by black banquet, and an awful lot of jasons too. I'm sure some people will simply call skill issue over this, but this type of tunneling is immensely easy for killers to do and very difficult for all but the best survivor teams to effectively prevent. By the time you realise how hard killer is committing to this it's usually too late to simply genrush. And it literally tanks the game, one surv gets next to no bp and is dead within minutes of the game starting. And the rest of the team is screwed unless there is a wild skill gap between killer and the 3 remaining survivors and they just so happened to demonise the 1 weak surv in a group.
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Currently abandons remove matches from survivor personal stats, inflating their ERs by deleting many losses. That's bad for the game because it gives a false sense of accomplishment and, at this point, with it having been talked about over many posts here and with mods absolutely having seen them but never addressing the points, it feels intentional.
As far as anyone can tell, bots are empty shells with no MMR, so if the killer slugs 4 people and they abandon, the killer gains no MMR, and the survivors don't lose any. The abandon system currently allows killers to smurf with slower MMR gains, and survivors to keep MMR they should have lost.
Until these things are fixed I'll remain against the abandon option in all cases.
Every time the added spreading hook rewards they add massive buffs for survivors if you "tunnel" (which was just killing someone to fast even if you didnt tunnel them and they played bad) which again survivors use aggressively or would put killers in a lose lose withe the horrible anti slug changes. I bet you if we removed people who gave up on hook and said tunneling is taking out a single person with out going for another person which thay is what tunneling is not just killing someone whole everyone else is on different hook states. We would see a massive drop in tunneling just like how face camping was only happening 4% of games and was probably a result of the game not explaining its self well. I know when I first started back when ghosty was added I face camped because it just made sense from what the game told me my job was to kick survivors and that made the most sense to protect my kill.
I can tell you why because behavior doesnt balance around the game they balance around stats that they have proven they dont understand example the pallet incident on stream when talking abiut the game. They have all this data but clearly cant read it.
Agreed its not hard and the already have bots for 2v8 so they have no excuse for not letting killers abandon why letting survivors abandon after the smallest thing. Like for real why can I abandon after being downed after being picked up i have had multiple games when i was downed killer chases off the flash lighter someone tries to save me I get nocked down after being picked up and can abandon then play the match and win. The game encourages survivors to give up it feels like
Its there for sluggers so you don't have to play a match where you are just laying on the ground most of the time. If you get slugged three times you can abandon. Still I have been saying the whole time that the abandoning feature needs the 10 second grace period before it comes available as some people do it the instant its there and sometimes they do it when the match not really even over.
I still dont understand why survivors hate slugging its litteraly better then hooking for them they have mkre time can be saved faster and dont give a sound alert as well as being able to reposition in a better spot for the save. The only down side you survivors dont get broken perks like shoulder deliverance ds and cant use anti tunnel mechanics aggressively. I understand abandoning after everyone is downed the same reason killers should be able to abandon when gates are powered the games over sure you could have perks that counter it but abandoning is a choice.
If someone wants to provide an actual legit reason to require killer to stay in the match, I’m happy to listen.I don't have a problem with the idea of killers being able to abandon, but being we're discussing players being honest, it would honestly be a massive expansion of the abandon system.
The chance of the survivors making a comeback when all survivors are down, hooked, or dead is very, very rare. If they don't have the right perks its literally impossible for them to do it on their own and requires the killer to troll (intentionally let one get back up by picking up and dropping repeatedly, just face camping until the meter triggers), and even with one of the right perks this is such a disadvantageous situation for the survivors that progressing the objective is still extremely unlikely.
On the other hand, killers gaining kills after the gates are open is a normal occurrence, it happens frequently. Nothing about the gates being open signifies the game is over. The better comparison would be all to the survivors standing at the exit gate line, but as covered in other posts trying to put an abandon option in there has its own issues.
So one is a situation where advancing the objective is extraordinarily rare if not impossible and the other advancing the objective commonly happens.
Additionally, the killer has the ability to open the gates. They would have the power to trigger the abandon. BHVR took the time to make it so plot twist could not trigger abandon, it is something the player doesn't have the power to do, but something that is done to them.
Honestly, giving the killer the option to abandon at gates being open would be like if survivors could abandon if someone was hard tunneled (the actual topic of this thread), an unfavorable situation, but not one where they cannot progress.
killers being forced to sit through a 2 minute egc when they can no longer win versus survivors being allowed to abandon at the end of the game to avoid the horror of sitting through a 5 second animation when they can no longer win
It’s not a massive expansion of the abandon system. It’s simply letting killers abandon when gates are open and the game is already over. Killers can stay and try to get more kills if they want - that’s their choice. If the don’t want to try to get more kills, then why do we demand that they stay in the match? That’s the only question that needs to be answered and people are still avoiding it.
I’d be totally fine getting rid of all abandons as well for the reasons you mentioned. But as long as survivors are allowed to abandon just for getting slugged a few times, there is no legitimate reason to not let killers leave when the gates are open.
Aside from further messing up MMR and thus matchmaking? Why make it worse just because it's already bad? That repeated slugging abandon was just a bad idea. Bad ideas shouldn't be expanded upon, they should be reverted.
That’s the only question that needs to be answered and people are still avoiding it.Not really, people focus on what gets talked about, when you say things like this:
Then match is over. Survivors get to DC for free once the match is over.People are going to talk about that because those are are not correct. The match is frequently not over and its not equivalent to when the survivors get to DC because their scenario the match is almost always over. You can't use one side as example when that sides example is different from what is being asked for.
Killers can stay and try to get more kills if they want - that’s their choice. If the don’t want to try to get more kills, then why do we demand that they stay in the match?Why demand anyone stay in the match? Some people are fine with more people leaving, others think it ruins the game when people nope out of competitive games.
If you want a system where people can leave more frequently, go for it, there's lots of examples on the survivor side that would have an equivalent argument, but it would be a pretty big expansion based on what currently exists.
My preference would be to remove all abandons except for all survivors slugged/hooked, and in that case, the abandons count as kills. Easy peasy. Don’t know why this is so hard for BHVR to do.
There are two options for how long this has been going on and how much it's been pointed out to them:
1. It's not easy.
2. It's intentional.
I can't imagine it's hard to make abandon cause the player is registered as dead instead of just gone. Hopefully the MMR rework changes this because if anything is screwing up matchmaking it's people taking their MMR with them when they die, or killers not gaining any when they win.
So what if it ends the game on the spot? What is left for the survivors to do? The generators are done and the gates are open. That leaves healing, opening chests, cleansing dull totems and bming the killer and that's it if the killer is done trying. That's not gameplay worth preserving so the killer should have the option to resign.
If someone wants to secure a kill or more in Endgame they're not going to resign.
I don't think the killer should just be able to open the gate and resign. I think 60 seconds after a gate opens would be good.
Thats luxury you will get downvoted for here.
Many people deffend this because to them killer has agency but thats not always the case its just double standart that can be easily changed I believe but I dont think it will changed.
So tunnel them later in the game. Like i said in literally the first line of my post. I'm not opposed to tunneling in general. Just the hard tunneling one player straight away.
Easy to kill that player mid game after a couple of gens are done instead of extirpating them from the game immediately. That way they get a chance to do something and you don't risk losing the game.
That was it. Been a while. Shame they removed that. Did it fro. A few perks. I remember when old TOTH and distressing used to give general bp bonuses just for using them. I acty used to have a bp farming build on demo with those perks.
Honestly "Token BBQ" was really the best and original "anti-tunneling" perk. Back when I was a Doctor main full-time my loadout was "STBFL, Pop, BBQ, and (insert random perk here)" I would always get my first hooks from all 4 survivors then after that I'd play normally, whether I would camp, tunnel, slug, or not.
Yeah it was a good incentive. Idk why they removed the bp bonus
idk the actual reason except to break the meta since most ppl were using it for the bp gain, survivors had an equivalent with WGLF with gaining up to 4 tokens for protection hits and unhooking safely. If they brought back token BBQ, i guarantee you wont see tunneling at 5 gens very often or at all
The stated reason was that its pickrate was greatly elevated because of the BP bonus, and they wanted to move away from perks granting BP.
Even if they did bring back the BP bonus, I doubt it would deter tunneling in this day and age. People have become way too dependent on it now. DBD just isn't the same as it was back then.
I’m inclined to agree.
When exactly does the killer lose agency to the point they can not do anything practical?
In moment you dont have any preasure, no perks to help you, gates are 99 or opened and no survivor is hooked, slugged or chased away from gate at that point you are just strawman who has nothing and have to push them out at best unless they are super stupid and give you free hook which in that situation is almost impossible.
Thats why abandon should be there because only the killer knwos in what situation he is at the endgame and it should be his own decision if he proceeds to call it gg and abandons or he has potencial to gain something like more hooks or kills and stays there to finish it.
That's patently untrue, killers can easily snowball in the endgame after gens. Plus there are a hundred and one endgame perks that benefit killers after the last gen is done.
Sure you might not have a good chance if you're in endgame with nobody injured but if that's the case then you had a pretty bad game.
I wouldn't mind killer having nore abandon options if it didn't immediately end the game for survivors.
Which is still alot more practical agency compared to what the survivors can do. The killer is not forced to sit that whole timer despite peoples claims to the contrary, the killer can still earn points via powers or pallets, the killer can still get lucky with an idiot survivor (and we all know theres plenty of those). The survivors meanwhile can do what when they abandon? 4slugged/on hook: Crawl and pray that someones got a perk.
You know as well as I that if you give the abandon as soon as the endgame starts that alot of people will simply abandon right then and there because they THINK they can't do anything and "lost". People don't like to be rational on dbd.
Earning a pittance in points for power use/pallets is hardly what I call agency and neither is ushering out survivors to end the match. Giving an abandon with a replacement of an afk bot is a lot more respectful to both parties. The killer can skip the EGC and get a headstart on matchmaking while the remaining survivors can use that extra 2 minutes to complete any challenges they might need to do before leaving. A killer who thinks a game is lost is not going to engage with the match no matter how much you might disagree, the most practical solution is to just give them the bot so it doesn't abruptly end the match for survivors so their time is respected as well.
Truth nuke.
Yet the killer can choose and can do no mater how much people disagree. Could you end the match at any point by kicking them out? Yes. Could they open a door and do absolutely nothing after? Yes. Could you say "screw them" and target practice hatchets as huntress? Yes. If they dont engage thats them but nothing is stopping the killer from doing anything. Its all their freedom of choice.
ow so again no respect for the killers time like usaly. why do o have ot push people out just leave its not hard stop being toxic and just walk out the gate all your doing is wasting peoples time. and the survivors can just hide making it so you cant push out survivors because they are in some random corner hiding to specificly waster the killers time.
It only really becomes an issue if survivors refuse to finish gens. In which case they can be reported for holding the game hostage. And that gives you an opportunity to keep chasing them and get downs.
Once gens are done, you open gates yourself (which comes with a bp bonus) and then they have to leave by the end of egc which doesn't take long.
If you abandon then the game instantly ends and all of their bp earnings are stopped. Which is not particularly fair. Survs have to put a lot of work and skill into winning a game against killer. Having the game cutoff as soon as gens are done or killer thinks they've lost is immensley frustrating.
If they added killer bots who could play out the rest of the game I'd have zero issue with going next like that. But while killer abandons end the game instantly I'm hard against it. Killer players have to deal with losses too. They can't just throw their toys out of the pram everytime the game doesn't go their way.
It would ad a bot killer gets bp vs survivor bots survivors get bd against kilelr bots in 2v8 and i know the game has killer gots because me and a friend waited 30 minutes in a 2v8 match just for his internet to drop and I was left with a Ghostface bot. And I bet you my entire life savings people got bp from that killer bot.
First of all not all killers can snowball all it comes to perks and killers power plus map and survivors situation (how many are downed,injured etc.), if you have nothing from this and they have gates then its gg plus many killers cant deal with bodyblocks well. Your idea falls apart because not everyone runs noed or endgame perks plus some killer powers just dont work in endgame like weskers power has huge comeback potencial compare to knights guards that are only good at dennying resets or forcing people out of gates unless you run certain iri addon.
Tell me whats bad on killers having abandon option once gates are opened and endgame timer starts??
Whats bad on killer deciding if he wants to continue at that point or calls it a gg and everyone moves on??
I find it quiet poetic when one side can skip few seconds by abandon or force abandon while other cannot and must bare it to bitter end.
I get you worries about too many give it up but isnt it same on other side as soon they dont like something they dc or force abandon by going all down and yes you can easily force killer to down you all if he hooks survivor unless he stays at place and does nothing.
Yeah but they aren't added in 1v4. They probably should be. But while they aren't it's hardly fair to dc when it just straight up ends the game.
Its very simple. The problem is because it ends the game if the killer leaves.
I'm sure you would complain if the game ended the second a survivor disconnected. Like you work the whole game, get 3 kills and are about to mori your last survivor, then that survivor disconnects and you get booted to the endgame summary and don't get to do your mori. Or you hook one survivor and suddenly the game ends and you don't get chance to play.
If they added killer bots for 1v4 then I wouldn't have an issue with killers being more able to abandon. Because then survivors could still play.
And sidenote any killer can snowball if the killer player is any good and thebsurvs get too cocky. It's easier with some killer and harder eith others but still possible. You make it sound like killer is thebweak roll and loses all the time. Which is simply not true.
If I see 1 single toolbox i'm tunnelling idgaf lmao
I dont know what game you play but game already ends when survivor “dc” in loading into the match and it isnt super rare. Difference is abandon isnt dc you keep your points and I bet they would easily make it so you get escape bp when killer abandons just like they do it when he dc.
Killer bots I believe will happen at some point but their effectiveness will be bad (I believe) because its not easy to program all killers to play like players do it like bot nurse and spirit will be to tier we know it due to 2v8 and ones like huntress will be bumm because huntress mains hold axe and zone or wait for window for clear shot while bots pull back the hatchet when their los is broke with survivor which isnt what huntress mains mostly or m1 killers sill be just raw chasing you down without any mind games so easy to loop.
As I wrote earlier snowball highly depends on situation and certain things make it almost impossible unless survivors are very bad.
When the time disrespected is your own fault then no your not going to get any respect. You want sympathy for something you can do about, your more likely to find it buried 6 ft under than from me. I'll refrain from reminding why people started complaining that got the abandon system in the first place...
And I've STILL yet to experience survivors hiding in some corner of the map when the doors are open. It's been near a decade.
One side is different than the other. One side is much more able to dictate what happens in a trial. One side can often punish the other when they anger the one another.
Those remaining that "force abandon" (odd term, isn't it more "rage quit"?) need fixed yes, preferably with penalties, but that's not a reason to give another abandon button.
So you are against abanfon in general even against existing ones, or you just hate it on obe side while on other you deffend it like politician caught in corruption?
I wouldn't say survivors going dc on loading screen is very common. Usually they either lobby shop or dc in match when they get downed. Lobbyshoppers don't affect the game just lengthen the queue by a few seconds and in match they are replaced by a bot. Game is already probably a loss but at least survs can still try to play and everyone can earn bloodpoints from a full match. You can't compare that to a killer leaving and the games stops at that instant. No chance for more bp or even just the simple pleasure of running out the gate you worked to open.
And again killer bots wouldn't be good at the game but at least it'd let survs farm their bp inseas of the game force closing on them.
As for the endgame situation? "Almost impossible" to snowball is a gross exaggeration. Obviously some killers will end up with a 0k but guess what? If you get outplayed as killer that might happen. But it goes the other way just as often as not. Survs get greedy and go for a save or bodyblock, killer capitalises on that and gets more hook states and maybe even a free kill or two. I've done it plenty of times.
Honestly for the most part yes, me and my brothers wanted exponentially quicker bleed outs. This is what we all got. We HATE quitter talk. But this has nothing to do with the points does it now?
Secondly Watson, if you're a politician everyone already knows there's corruption around you, no one bothers to properly defend themselves anymore
Endgame time is very uncertian for killer higly effected by MAP, killers power and survviors state but its not wherer killer is strongest especialy when gates are opened like some are like bubba potencionaly strongest while others like ghostface are super nerfed (he sucks around deffending saves due to how easily survivors can counterplay him) so its huge risk for both sides a uncertian outcome it have heavily shift into killers favor making 1k to 4 or 3 or it can favor survivors making killer have 0k but I dislike like everybody here swings "Its where killer is strongest and favors him" well sometimes it does but sometimes it doesnt thats whole DBD aspect of nothing stable and heavy rng aspects.
I dont claim killer should get abandon when gates are opened and the timer just started but like when its at half and no one is hooked at that point theres not much of a reason to keep killer there if its loss for him and he wants to move on.
Also I think you comparing dc with abandon is wild because they arent the same, abandon we speak about here only happens at the games very end and doesnt effect points of survivors (well if killer dc survivors get escape points of 7k since what 2019 or what so I bet it would be with killers abandon the same) its just time save.
Regardless of abandon or not it still insta ends the game for everyone. It denies survivors chance for more bp and the satisfaction of getting out of the gates. Like I said if you were playing killer, and hypothetically a survivor leaving instantly ended the game for you, you would find that annoying, because survs could simply leave to deny you your mori on the last surv.
It also messes with challenges, if i have a tome challenge to escape via gates (and that happens rarely enough) I don't want that challenge being ruined, after I've earned it, because killer couldn't see the game through.
As I've said, if a killer left a bot after they DC'd I'd have no issue with killers leaving or abandoning. But since we don't it's unfair for killers to leave and stop the game for everyone.
It doesn't help that they don't seem to play the game. It's like the blind leading people who can actually see lol
Sure. If you don't waste time searching for them again later. Oh look, they all 4 got out. What it boils down to is this. The Survivor Rulebook nor in fact the Killer Rulebook have any meaning. As others have jokingly said, why is it that survivors are okay to 'genrush' but if a killer 'tunnels' to get at least one kill, they're the bad guy? OH wait, they ARE THE BAD GUY BECAUSE THEY ARE THE KILLER.
The survivors primary objective is to finish generators and escape. The Killer's primary objective is to stop the survivors from escaping and kill them. If you are going to make rules of how the killer has to do their primary objective to be "fair" then the same goes for survivors. No more genrushing, if you finish a generator before the killer has at least 2 hooks, stop and let them get those 2 hooks. It's only fair. 2 hooks per generator. Those are the new rules, and in return we promise not to tunnel.
it's because it gave killers something the devs are survivor mains and if you remembered the 2nd livestream for the 2nd ptb they did some sneaky dishonest wordplay and said "killers were saying it's too handholdy" even though the killers were talking about the survivor benefits on the first ptb and replaced it with bloodlust which is garbage and hurts all killers and still kept the broken stuff survivors got