Stop hard tunneling.
No I'm not complaining about tunneling in general, i tend to be understanding of the concept. The thing I have an issue with is the worst kind of tunneling. Standard tunneling is whatever, if you find a double hooked surv and a no hook surv on a gen, you have a choice and the double hooked surv is the tactical choice every time. I'm talking about hard repeatedly tunneling the same surv off hook to the exclusion of all others straight off the bat. Heck I'm not even that fussed about tunneling straight off hook if it's done mid-late game.
It's this situation. Killer gets their first hook after a realtively short chase, realises that surv is mid/weak at chase. Killer then proxy camps said hook, maybe they manage to force the surv to stage, then as soon as the surv is unhooked, they hit them off hook and commit to the exclusively chase them again down them quickly rinse repeat. You get one survivor dead at 4-5 gens left. That one survivor has no chance to play the game, and the rest of the team is screwed because the game is not supposed to be a 3v1. We've all had games like that.
There has to be a system where the game can recognise that the killer is focusing out one player to the exclusion of all others. In the specific situation where you have 2 hooks on the same player, 0 hooks on anyone else and they are chasing the 2 hooked player there should be some kind of game intervention. Something that stops this kind of play dead. Peehsps a system where the surv on taking the second hit straight off of hook gets teleported to thebopposite side of the map and insta hesled or just invincibility or invisibility that gets cancelled if the killer hooks another player or if a survivor struggles out (obvs I wouldn't want to see survs abusing a mechanic like this for free bodyblocks) this would give the tunneled surv an opportunity to get out of the killer's sight and have a chance to heal and actually try to counter play by going stealthy so they can still achieve something in the match.
Normally it's fairly rare but I've seen an uptick in this kind of play from killers over the last couple of weeks, probably killers getting tilted by black banquet, and an awful lot of jasons too. I'm sure some people will simply call skill issue over this, but this type of tunneling is immensely easy for killers to do and very difficult for all but the best survivor teams to effectively prevent. By the time you realise how hard killer is committing to this it's usually too late to simply genrush. And it literally tanks the game, one surv gets next to no bp and is dead within minutes of the game starting. And the rest of the team is screwed unless there is a wild skill gap between killer and the 3 remaining survivors and they just so happened to demonise the 1 weak surv in a group.
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This is ignoring how the game works in the most basic way. The killer gets stronger as the game progresses. Even if the killer loses gens with no hooks they've likely destroyed resources. Less gens also means a narrowing area to patrol. Killers panicking and tunneling because they lost 3 gens during a chase is usually they're own fault for overcommiting but also not the end of the match.
The thing is, genrushing is far easier to counter than hard tunneling. When I play killer I rarely get genrushed effectively because I know what gens to defend and which ones to let go. Whereas hard tunneling is only really counterable if the tunneling target amazingly good at chase. Usually it's just an I win button, and pften has the rest of the team just DCing or throwing themselves on hook to go next to a game where they actually get to play. Truly riveting gameplay.
No more genrushing, if you finish a generator before the killer has at least 2 hooks, stop and let them get those 2 hooks. It's only fair. 2 hooks per generator. Those are the new rules, and in return we promise not to tunnel.Except you're asking the survivors to stop doing their objective entirely. Killers aren't asked to stop hunting survivors, they're asked not to engage in a very boring and over powered, simplistic strategy. I'd rather BHVR addressed it, but they seem terrified of touching it again.
And survivors do frequently let up on gen rush, but killers also get annoyed when they do that, because they start going for bodyblocks, pallet saves, etc. Survivors aren't telling killers to just wait in a corner, go chase other survivors, engage in the game.
No, I am asking to keep the gameplay perfectly balanced. 5 Gens, two escapes, two kills. That's a perfect 50/50 balance. You're asking Killers not to play to win. Why can survivors do everything in their power to try to get that 4-man out, but if the killer goes for one kill in a way that isn't approved by the Survivor Council, well that just won't do?
I just reinstalled the game to play a little more. Of 10 games, 9 featured hard-tunnelled and/or camped. It's boring as hell. And the killers felt entitled to do so. This game is a waste of time so long as this toxic behaviour is allowed. It's boring, frustrating, and not fun.
BHVR has been caught lying to our faces several times in the past. I don't look at their "statistics", I look at their reputation, which is demonstrably untrustworthy.
That being said, body blocking with OTR or base-kit anti-tunnel? That's a tunnelin'
Using said OTR then hopping into a locker to force the DS? That's a tunnelin'
Following me around while injured trying for flashlight saves while making no effort to stay concealed? That's a tunnelin'
Not every hard tunnel falls out of the sky. Sometimes you asked for it.
No, I am asking to keep the gameplay perfectly balanced. 5 Gens, two escapes, two kills. That's a perfect 50/50 balance.Why? Based on what? This just seems like an absurd non-sequitur to the discussion that is trying to make some type of 'the other side is hypocritical' argument, but just comes off as nonsense.
You're asking Killers not to play to win. Why can survivors do everything in their power to try to get that 4-man out, but if the killer goes for one kill in a way that isn't approved by the Survivor Council, well that just won't do?Don't play in a SWF. Don't gen rush. Don't shift W. Don't always run to shack. Don't stealth out corrupt. Don't bring resurgence and heal under hook. Don't body block with unbreakable. Don't body block with basekit BT. Don't bring hyperfocus. Don't use StB against a non-tunneling killer. Don't stealth for hatch. Never, ever, teabag.
I'd add things like: don't bring unhookable builds, don't bring syringes to heal, don't run FTP+BU, don't run infinites, don't run MFT, don't go to CoH to self heal, don't run four luck offerings to self unhook, don't bodyblock with OTR - except all those got changed.
The idea that only one side has a 'rulebook' is, and has been, absurd.
Never said both sides didn't have rulebooks. That's my entire point. The Survivor Rulebook has no meaning, the Killer Rulebook has no meaning. Play how you want. You can't tell me not to tunnel just as I can't tell you not to gen rush. It's all absurd.
Is it really that absurd to want a basic level of empathy?
What about survivor bully squads? Where is THEIR empathy? It has nothing to do with empathy. It has to do with this is a game with clear goals. Survivors repair generators to open the exit gates, killers try to stop them by putting them on hooks. Beyond that, as long as you aren't cheating or exploiting bugs, how either side chooses to achieve their goals is up to each player, including the worst survivor bully squads.
Difference is that it is much harder, and much rarer for bully squads to beat a killer. Tbh most bully squads end up getting humbled hard on a regular basis
Whereas with killer most matches can be won very easily by simply tunneling ruthlessly. Which is an amazingly unfun playstyles to go against.
It's very much unfun for killers when survivors bring the best meta perks, purple toolboxes and BNPs and 3 gens pop before the killer even gets their first hook. That's why any thing of "Where's your empathy?" is well, yes absurd.
Well, if a killer is going to proxy camp the hook and try to get a free trade/down out of it, I will attempt to take that hit so that both characters are still standing.
Like, I get how annoying a full minute of endurance with off the record and decisive strike is and body blocking to that extent, but killers shouldn't act so entitled to either a tunnel or another free down because they chose the most blatantly unfair and boring strategy possible, and were denied that immediate gratification 0.5 seconds after a survivor gets unhooked.
What you're doing is creating a false equivalence.
This would be like saying 'if a person can take money out of a bank when they have an account, why is it wrong for a person to take money out of a bank when they rob it. Either taking money out of the bank is always okay, or never okay'.
Or if you prefer something behavior based, just because some standards of politeness throughout human history are silly, that doesn't mean all rules of politeness are silly.
The fact that some 'rules' that people try to create are wrong, doesn't mean all 'rules' are wrong. If someone says people shouldn't hard tunnel, pointing to a bad rule doesn't actually relate.
And some of the killer rules are absolutely fine. If a 4 person SWF is experienced playing together and they bring the best possible gear, yeah, I don't think that's right. Bully squads who don't try and advance the game, yeah, bad. When unhookable builds were a thing, absolutely no survivor should have been running them.
Or...hear me out...i play how I want to and you play how you want to? The killers job is to kill the survivors and not to make sure everyone is having fun
You really don't see people complaining about bully squads? Regardless of that it does regard some empathy. If everyone goes full optimizing cut throat what happens? A large amount of players leave the unfun cesspool it becomes. If the lacking a certain level of empathy causes people to leave then there's no game. Yes this applies to swf bully squads and they need to do it too.
So because a very small minority of survivor teams bring efficient builds and can win the game quickly, you feel it's fine to play cheap tactics against every surv team you play against? Even when you don't see a full set of toolboxes?
And you say it like genrushing can't be countered. I've stopped it myself plenty of times. Purple tool boxes and bnps don't work if you work on your macro gameplay and defend the gens they want to work. If a killer gets stuck in a 100+ second chase and can't either end it faster and trigger a regression perk or break off and pressure gens then they will lose gens.
Even if killers do lose gens fast then snowballing it still eminently possible. Losing the first 2 generators really aren't much of an issue (unless you lose 2 of the most central open gens which are easy to defend, losing those is a sign of bad tactics) It just shapes where most of the action will happen.
No, what you are doing is a strawman. Tactics, fun or not, allowed in a video game are not equivalent to real-life criminal behavior. Hence, by making that comparison, you're trying to say that I think bank robbery is okay because I think tunneling is okay.
Yeah tunneling is already so easy idk why they're actively making it easier.
because survivors were using it aggresivly they said that in the stream and survuvor is gaining 10 seconds of elusive the strongest survivor effect after endurance so stop healing under hook and body blocking and you can easily get away
This is so difficult for a ton of players to grasp that it spawned a 7 page brick wall conversation of “them vs us” and “I’m upset they don’t play the way I want; BHVR, please stop this obviously allowed gameplay so I can enjoy the game because I’m not a hypocrite” slop.
Elusive doesn't really do much if the killer is lurking by the hook and just limpets to the unhooked survivor, which a lot of killers do.
10 seconds of endurance just makes hard tunneling that much easier. Elusive is definitely a step in the right direction but only helps if killer is late back to hook and the unhooker didn't follow the unhookee.
For the record I don't like survs using posthook endurance aggressively. Anyone who does that is free for a tunnel imo. And tbh it's a supid dexision for survs because it generally ends up with the same survivor back on hook.
Yeah thing is devs could go hard aginst tunneling and make it completely unfeasible then they could nerf gen speeds or tweak chase to make things easier for killer and make the game more chase based and not this current tunnel or lose meta that makes the game so unfun at the moment.
They would have to do the changes at the same time otherwise it will causes an "us vs them" overflow.
And make sure it's comparable. Not gutting one side, but equal in effect.
But both of these are wishful thinking, as putting both on the same PTB or Event will cause people to have kneejerk reactions
Yeah, it would be a huge change and I don't think bhvr want to take the risk on it unfortunately 😕
If the killer is hanging around hook thats basicly 4 gens free. What it sounds like it your being saved infront of the killer basicly right away which im sorry is a skill issue. Tunneling is just a tactic like slugging and genrushing the way to fix it is actually make doing somthing else more beneficial.
exactly. so many people just rooting for the downfall of the game by saying extremely bad and toxic mechanics are just a skill issue and acting like they shouldn't change. both killers and survivors would have more fun if this happened.
I think there's the issue of humanity becoming more and more entitled every day one and two that it's just the easiest way to win the game is designed around tunneling and it's not really going anywhere pig is bar none the worst killer in the game but no one sees that because she's good at tunneling if your sweating your balls off I've written an entire essay on how to fix these issues and people essentially just said just tunnel but I don't want to tunnel it's boring and dumb people are too obsessed with picking the best thing because they want to feel smart for picking meta humanity as a whole in general are pretty uninspired we won't shut up about optimization and that's never going to change
So your solution is that whenever killers try to tunnel/hookcamp survs simply ignore the normal gameplay loop and leave their team mates to die on hook, I'm sure that would make for extremely interesting games. One survivor gets camped out and everyone else just slams gens opens gates and gets a 3 out. No altruism or boldness points for survs, killer would get next to no points, game is over after maybe one or two chases. And this only really works when you have a full swf in vc to communicate what's happening, soloq have no way to counter or communicate that the killer is playing like this.
Idk about you but I play games for enjoyment, I get there's enjoyment in winning but falling back on boring, cheap easy win tactics such as hard tunning is tedious and unrewarding. When I play killer i start games by spreading my hooks and actively avoiding tunneling until I'm down to at least three, usually 2 gens. And I tend to do well in my games and have fun in them. I'd rather have an interesting game that's a 2k, than rely on boring unfun tactics for a 3 or 4k.
My argument would be the skill issue is with killers who feel they have to hard tunnel at the start of the game to achieve anything, because if they have to do this to secure kills then clearly their chase skills and macro gameplay skills are sorely lacking, and they'll never improves by spending 70% of their game staring at a hook getting free hits from unhook attempts. Killer is for sure the more frustrating role when you're losing, but the way I see some killer players play/talk on these forums they clearly expect to win every game.
Yeah this is the issue, dbd is inherently and unbalanced game, it's not meant or properly balanced for fair competitive play. It's why dbd doesn't have a competitive scene worth talking about.
But a lot of players treat it like a competition with thousands in prize money on the line. And it makes the game truly unpleasant sometimes.
What?
A strawman is an argument that the other side has never made that the person then attacks. I'm making a comparison to another situation. You might disagree with the comparison, but it certainly isn't a strawman.
Hence, by making that comparison, you're trying to say that I think bank robbery is okay because I think tunneling is okay.That's not how logical comparisons work.
I'm saying that the logic you are trying to use to make your point is wrong, I'm demonstrating that by showing if the same logic was applied to a different situation how obviously absurd it would be.
To be clear, I'm not saying you think bank robbery is okay. That's, again, obviously absurd. I'm explaining how your logic though leads to the same place. It's a fallacy in the reasoning.
I also gave a second comparison in there for you as well that didn't deal with a crime.
And if you wanted to avoid the comparison issue entirely, I gave you the name of what you are doing, false equivalence.
And just to sum up the argument again - 'just because some 'rules' that 'some' people have might be bad, is not evidence that 'all' possible rules are inherently bad.'
Why are tunneling, slugging, and gen rushing tactics, but body blocking off hook isn't?
After all, the body blocker is making themselves an easy target. To use your own words, it sounds like a skill issue if that can't be dealt with.
We had this back before anti-face camp with Bubba's who'd stand in front of hook. Just do gens, leave - I hated those games with a fiery passion even though they were easy wins.
Heck I've seen bubbas do it even after the anti facecamp update. Had one a couple weeks ago with a swf mate, bubba who just proxy camped someone on yamaokas.
Unfortunately for them it was after a 2 gen chase, and luckily the other random realised what was happening so we just cracked out the last 3 gens and left. Felt bad for the one who got hooked though, one decent chase and they didn't get to play anymore
But yh it makes for mad boring games. Nobody enjoyed that one. The bubba sat and watched someone stage twice. And the rest of us just held rb on gens and hit skill checks. Thoroughly tedious game
i dont disagree that being hard tunneled out isnt "fun" but hard tunneling is still "fair and square"
it doesnt break rules or go against the mechanics of the game. it is an elimination game. an elimination game that by design does not guarentee any of the players a minimum amount of non elimination time. sure it still sucks to encounter just as other ways of losing are but its an elimination game and you were eliminated first either due to your own lack of capacity or dumb plays from team mates that unhook in bad situations.
hard tunneling is objectively a fair and square way to play the game. it just isnt fun for everyone to experience. kinda goes the same with pretty much every other behavior perk and mechanic in the game however.
Lord only knows, well maybe not, at the end of the day, most companies are more interested in making money than making a good game. As long as the buvr still makes bank on the game, their efforts will go into releasing new chapters and cosmetics, whilst not rocking the boat too much on game balance so as not to drive anyone away.
because they are intended mechanics in the game. hence why the game was specifically designed to include and devs have made changes to discourge it someone but they clearly want them to remain in the game.
and people can complain about it all they want but these have been in the game for 10 years and the game is doing fine. your gonna complain and moan about every inconvenience you have but then youll still que up and play
This is always such a weak argument.
"There's a cheap, unfun tactic in the game. I'm going to paraphrase the devs and say it's intended to justify my use of it."
one of the most frustrating and fallacious tactics people use in discussions is what you just did.
If you defend or pushback on an argument for X reasons you must do so because you do the very thing and want to justify that.
your not being conducive to actual mature conversation.
if you want to have a real conversation even under disagreement then have one. but what you did is annoying and demonstartes an unwillingness to have honest genuine disccusions but reframe opposition to your positions in a way that pushes your narrative or can dismiss anothers views.
so lets make it clear. i am not a tunneler or slugger except for the cases where it makes sense. i dont need to nor is it the type of playstyle i utilise with my killers (or find thrilling)with the exception of twins because they are built to slug a little.
nor do i slug for 4ks unless the 4th was right by me when i downed the 3rd.
and yet you decided to make an assumption on how i play because youd rather it fit your desired narrative than on the actual topic at hand.
ive made no statement or claim that slugging or tunneling are something you should find fun but the way people act the find nothing fun in this game, there is not a single mechanic in this game that doesnt have everyone complaining over it.
youll just need to get over it. get constructive feedback and inform the devs you like or dislike something but this game does have a design personality to it and tunneling and slugging are part of that.
it objetively does not matter that you dont like it or i like it, thats still how the game is designed and its clearly a fine way to play the game as the people who made the product have stated many times. though of course if every game is tunneling or whatever then they would want to disersify the game behaviors people are doing.
all that will ever happen is some of the most annoying methods both roles can do can get mitigated eventually, but the tbagging, slugging, dc, that stuff is here to stay
Very true. I don't complain about bully squads. I 4k them or let them bleed out on the floor, depending on my mood.
Same, l love a good bully squad, soon as I cotton onto their tactics (lurking for flashy saves, sabo plays, bodyblocking etc) i find them very easy to counter
You can body block off hook thats a tactic the problem is the survivors that do this then ######### and complain about being tunneled. They are causing the tunneling. Its not a skill issue to have a problem with people being crybabies when they put them self in that situation. Yoy just want to absolve survivors or all wrong doing and clearly have 0 reading comprehension. Okay so you dont like when killer make the game hard and you dont like when the killer makes the game easy what do you want. Maybe an ai bot would be better for player like you so it can be programmed to follow the stupid survivors rules the try to push on killers. Because at this point yall will never be happy and cry wolf about things you causes constantly.
Hard tunneling is how the game is meant to be played. Why do you think the devs just made three killers in a row who all have mini-moris that bypass Decisive Strike, two of which get their mini-mori completely for free and are basically guaranteed to be able to use it? This is a feature, not a bug.
If I am to be honest on this. It is a tactic 100%, but some people still count this as tunneling even though most people say you do this, your putting yourself on a platter.
If you body block off hook, and the other survivor might be injured you might get the lucky hit and ignore, but in most cases you body blocking is seen as a throwing a glove at a killer for a duel.
Rightly so imo. I don't agree with domicci on much, but when it come to survs deliberately using unhook endurance to bodyblock?
He could definitely put it a bit less rudely but i agree with him on a base level. If someone deliberately gets in my face to block me from hitting their unhooker instead of running away then I'll absolutely take the free hit and capitalise on it.
If they want to survive then they need to run away, and I'll absolutely go for the uninjured surv. Likewise if I bodyblock off of hook I'm perfectly prepared for the risk that the killer will just come after me and tunnel me. Which is why I do it very very rarely. Usually if i have another hook state to spare and my saviour is on death hook.
You can body block off hook thats a tactic the problem is the survivors that do this then ######### and complain about being tunneled.So this thread is ~350 posts deep, and your real complaint is that survivors sometimes troll in end game chat?
There's trolls. There would be trolls no matter what changes they made to the game. But basing your posts off that for a discussion is skipping past the actual arguments.
It is a tactic 100%, but some people still count this as tunneling even though most people say you do this, your putting yourself on a platter.The most people is the far more relevant part. You will be able to find 'some' people who are opposed to pretty much anything in the game (and, just to add, that's completely normal, everyone is going to have their likes and dislikes).
If you body block off hook, and the other survivor might be injured you might get the lucky hit and ignore, but in most cases you body blocking is seen as a throwing a glove at a killer for a duel.Okay, no problem there.
Everytime this comes up most people, as you said, will say if the survivors invites chase we're no longer in tunneling territory.
A strawman can also be making an illogtcal comparison to shift the goalposts. Robbing a bank is in no way a reasonable comparison to tunneling, and therefore THAT is why your argument is a strawman.