How is The Ghoul balanced?
I love the collaboration with Tokyo Ghoul, it's great. Sadly, I cannot find myself having any fun when playing against this killer. Any exhaustion perk against him is useless because he can just catch up and he always gets a guaranteed first hit? When you manage to outplay his power with some obstacles he gains it back immediately, no reward for the survivor.
I like playing against a good blight (or even nurse) which both are S Tier Killers because there is some skill involved and you can outplay the killer if you know what you're doing, but this? No fun. The more I play against him the less I want to play this game.
Hope this gets better or different.
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Killers
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yes, but the annoyances kaneky does are basically the same, their counterplay is basically the same, but the counterplay is not as effective against kaneki, thats why im saying it, also you cant complain about kaneki when blight and nurse are still over him, Kaneki needs a debuff, yes. Should he get nerfed before nurse or blight, hell no. Nerf the S++ shitshow those 2 have going on first. because those 2 dont care about your exhaust, they dont even take them away, they laugh at you and you perish.
Counterplay is not same as against Legion, because you can't take protection hits, hold W, drop pallet against Kaneki.
At least for me even Blight and Nurse are more fun to play against. They already got their nerfs, there are things I would like to give them like:
Those two changes would increase their skill floor, but not really made them feel worse to play imo.
I don't think they have anything to do with Kaneki tho. It's again trying to bring attention away from him. Do all changes in one patch for all I care, not like they are difficult to do.
Main topic is how to actually make Kaneki more fun to play against without making him feel bad to play. I think removing cancel during his dash is way to go…
there are many things to be adjusted, on both sides, what I do not like is trying to get nerfs on ANY killer, that is less of an issue, before making changes to core mechanics the game has, or to overpowered ones, kaneki needs a nerf, Im totally on board with this, but other things need nerf first much more than kaneki, Windows of Cringe Opportunity is in 35% of games, as the most overused perk. People need those perks to deal with overpowered killers, but then not than strong killers get dumped on, several nerfs need to happen at once, on both sides, kaneki deserves more nerfs, but aint a priority. Bug fixing, overused perks, OP killers are. (he is an OP killer but are more annoying and strong things above him)
Listen: legion has to respect pallets, can be juked and has to traverse to your location for his injury. Kaneki looks at you from within your zip code and gets a health state. He does not care about pallets, it cannot be juked. The survivor has zero agency. Are you seeing the problem?
as i said, legion and kaneki have the same strats to be countered simply that the stats as not as effective.
Oooookay. You obviously don't want to acknowledge factual information.
Wesker can down you with his power, Ghoul can't it's not comparable at all...
It would genuinely make him D tier killer, you almost never want to use all 3 dashes in chase and you shouldn't want to
Skill issue. Ghoul becomes m1 in 90% of loops after getting first hit. If you cant loop m1 killer please consider learning how to play of quit the game.
you also shouldn’t be able to get completely out played and instantly be able to cancel and m1 the survivor who out played you rendering the survivor play worthless. The ghoul needs a complete rework so he cannot cancel, its bad enough the easy mode hitscan can hit a survivor on a second floor like in main building of dead dawg.
If the loop takes longer than two seconds to make it around then Kaneki wins.
If it's less than two seconds then it can be mind gamed and Kaneki wins.
Vaulting a window or a pallet is worthless when he can catch up with zero effort and no distance is made upon him canceling power.
I have feeling you are not very good at math…
Also have no idea what M1 killer is, at least in your context.
Well, just match his fatigue with Legion and make it so he can cancel only after dash and slide ends, not during it.
He would keep his high mobility, free injury and vaulting. I think that should be more than enough to keep him viable, but he would suddenly have some counterplay at least.
For all I care with those changes increase back his distance for leap.
Wouldn't be so bad if he was as rare as nurse but legit half of my games are against ghouls now that springtrap hype died… BHVR are busy nerfing clown and knight with next PTB so we'll have to endure ghoul again for months/years
This is very well said, and the scary part is Kaneki's insane map mobility hasn't even been mentioned in this post yet.
So on top of everything else, basically he gets his hook, typically runs something like bbq or alien instinct or friends to the end, spidermans across the entire map and right to that survivor in like 5 seconds. This will force survivors off of the gen and then typically activate dead man's switch. AND THEN, even if that ghoul happens to fail to get another down fairly quickly, once their first victim is saved from hook, they can just leap all the way back and proceed to tunnel them out.
Honestly, this killer is right up there with nurse and blight. Probably stronger in some situations. So a nerf is still very much deserved.
Horrible changes. Im sorry but have you played ghoul at all yourself? You want to make his cancel longer and remove its usefullness. Congrats you killed any skill ceilling the killer has. How about we keep ghouls skill ceilling and nerf the mindless parts of his kit like enrage vault and grab attack?
Ghoul's current skill ceiling
Yeah you want to back that claim up?
If ghouls skill ceilling is so low please Post a clip of you bodyblocking survivors mid loop like this. Hes easy right? So it wouldnt be an issue. Just play a game and get a clip!
in his current iteration there's literally no reason to make it that complicated. just force the pallet and either vault→ m1 or break pallet → catch up cancel → m1
SKILL
Nice strawman! Claim ghoul doesnt have a high skill ceilling, i show you an example of his skill ceilling "it doesnt matter" yeah okay dude, i guess blight doesnt have a high skill ceilling either just brute force the pallet! Guess huntress doesnt have a high skill ceilling either, just zone with your hatchets
You could argue removing hug tech and j flick was a nerf to blights skill ceiling. I would argue there's more skill in understanding and working within the limitations of a killers power.
Autoaim free hit into leap cancel m1 is by far the most common tactic and requires no skill to perform. No amount of triple leap 360 no scope body block clips will change that.
Youre just ignoring part of his kit to make your point, this the problem with saying a killer has no skill ceilling while you clearly dont play the killer. I gave video evidence about his skill ceilling and youre just choosing to ignore it because "no one does it" ghoul needs nerfs but completely gutting his skill ceilling, the thing i litterally showed you evidence of is not a good change. Its funny how youre complaining about the vault and grab when i litterally mention nerfs to both of those things if you just scroll up. So yes destroying ghouls skill ceilling with terrible nerfs is not a good idea ,and anyone arguing for his cancel to removed just never played ghoul in their life and needs to drop their crazy bias.
That was definitely a skillful play and an instance where it's cool to get downed; you outplayed the survivor. I think my issue is more with how low his skill floor is rather than how high the skill ceilings goes.
In that clip I noticed you used all three dashes. What if the cooldown was left as-is when used this way, but changed to a 2.3m/s slow for 2.5 seconds (like Legion) if it's canceled early?
This would deal with my primary issue with him, which is using his vault to just instantly close distance and invalidate pretty much any loop.
Yes, seemed very easy to me… Thing is your fancy blocks are simply not needed. The most annoying aspect for me is when he catch up, you can't do anything about it. You can't continue running and you can't double back. That's what I want to get rid of.
Well, I want to remove his mindless part and that's exactly what instant cancel during his dash does. You don't need to aim at any specific spot and know distance so you end near survivor. You just leap anywhere close to survivor and then just press button. Wow, so much skill.
Most of your clips you showed, would still work. For example the one you posted above. That was using 3 dashes, so that would still work.
You could still use it in loop, but you need to use know where to leap to get result you want. That seems as increasing skill ceiling instead…
Only nerfs he needs is his ability to cancel mid leap & vaulting speeds, rn, his ability to cancel mid leap is too op bc he gets back control over m1ing almost instantly, if they nerf this he'll be more balanced guaranteed
Why on earth are you doing all this weird ass weeble wopping around when you can just eat the stun, catch up to the survivor or scamper if they stay and get the down anyway? If having to contort yourself through all these gymnastics is the only way to challenge yourself with the killer then don't you see a problem with that?
Because i want to improve at the killer ? Most of these enrage vault defenders wont ever actually improve at ghoul Because thats the only trick they know
This is a tripple leap block which is only possibe on very long loops,
This is a more standard block on short loops where you use the slide to get infront of the survivor and CANCEL, you see the issue with your nerf now? This is exactly my point, you people claim the killer has no skill ceilling yet you can outplay loops like this without ever touching his vault. I almost never use enrage vault simply because i dont need to use it. So again ill repeat my proposed nerfs for ghoul.
1. Revert enrage vault speed to ptb values
2. Grab should only injure you within 8 meters
3. If you REALLY want to nerf his cancel only make the cancel longer or not possible on the first leap only.
Im all for nerfing his vault. Thats the main thing i want nerfed because it dumbs ghouls anti loop down to pressing 1 button. giving him a Legion type slow will hurt his skill expression i am very much against it.
Kind of a sad fact that Ghoul is capable of cool skillful stuff like this but there's no real reason to use it because it's just easier to play how most Ghoul's play at the moment.
I don't know what kind of changes they could make to facilitate it since I Imagine a lot of people like the fact Ghoul is a pretty simple killer on the surface level.
I am fine if he can't do it during first leap, that's where it is most used. Second etc he at least need to flick his camera and you can work with that more.
I really don't intend to gut him like Skully got, but leap cancel is just so cheap way to down right now and definetly what I hate most about him right now.
I don't mind it that much now, because I learned two tricks.
I agree this looks to be tough to do. But in this clip. Was there ANYTHING survivor could have done? It looks to me this is one of those things where killer either mess up, or gets hit. Survivor can be a literal bot.
Things like that do not belong to multiplayer games IMO. But correct me if I am wrong and there is something to do against this as survivor (I haven't touched the game in 2 years)
Best things to do if you know kaneki is gonna try this is double back after his first leap. You need to be VERY quick with your second leap otherwise they make it to the pallet. But just like huntress has tiles that are good for her power this car loop is just a good loop for kaneki. Bodyblocking isnt possible on a lot of loops and knowing which are and which arent blockable is a skill you need to learn. She couldve also faked the pallet greed and vacuum back to stun me.
Sounds reasonable, provided ghoul can't just cancel. But I read he can do that which means he's able to on-react adjust? If he can just react to it it would mean all cards are in ghoul's hands and survivors don't really have anything to do there. Am I wrong (and I mean it as genuine question - I don't know the killer. Never played as or against him)?
I don't know. Haven't played ghoul myself, but honestly just looks like you vaguely clicked near the ceiling in the general direction you wanted to go, then clicked on the pallet. So I can't really tell if what you did was indeed "skillful" or not.
But just thought I'd point out that you could also have just kept chasing Laurie, baited her into dropping the pallet, and simply leaped over it while locking her in place.
So it's basically like you did a 360 on huntress and still nailed your shot. "Look how skilled I am!" Debatable, but unnecessary.
All i can say on the skill part is try it yourself. I think the enrage vault shouldnt be that easy and nerfed into only being worth it on god pallets like wesker. And even if i could down Laurie like that it would take a lot longer then this way
Amazing question - he isn't. Nonexistent cooldowns and "Kidnap Tech" - the ability to stun or hinder a survivor whilst vaulting a pallet - reduce his counterplay to next to none.
I played Kaneki a lot release week, but quickly grew tired as it was clear his skill ceiling was fake, the moment you had a passing understanding of his kit no team could hold a candle to his options. Trying again post nerfs it felt like very little if anything had truly changed.
Most Ghouls aren't good though, that's the difference. A good Ghoul will utilize those tactics you mentioned and cut you off at loops but you rarely go against those Ghouls.
Hes not 🙂
What argument is this? It's not an issue, because players you play against are bad?
I couldn't care less, if players are so bad, they can't even play something so simple. With that logic Nurse, Spirit, Blight should have never get any nerfs and be buffed instead, simply because most players are too bad to play them.
The Ghoul has been nerfed in two consecutive patches recently. I'm surprised that you’re comparing him to The Blight and The Nurse, even though those two are much stronger than The Ghoul. It might be a matter of different playstyles in different regions. I'm a player from sea server, on the Asia or SEA server, and for us SEA players, The Ghoul isn’t considered strong at all compared to The Blight and The Nurse.
I'm not trying to criticize you I'm just a bit confused how you’re able to beat The Blight and The Nurse but not The Ghoul, even though The Blight and The Nurse are far stronger than The Ghoul right now. It makes me wonder whether you might be biased against The Ghoul, or if you simply haven’t encountered strong Blight or Nurse players yet.
I'm just hoping the changes make him fun to play against, and let people who enjoy him still enjoy him after the changes.
I do think a lot of the people who are clinging to him for the wrong reasons however, but I've seen some passionate players of the killer with great feedback threads recently. All I want is to enjoy playing aginst them, I don't really care much for playing hyper mobility killers, not my playstyle.
hes fine, yes he can get a free injure but he has no true anti loop. You have to play extremely safe, and adapt your playstyle
"no anti-loop"
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1m6odsd/ghoul_is_just_an_m1_killer_compilation/
You comparing Nurse and Blight to Ghoul is a bad argument. Like i said, Ghoul can't down people in his power, Nurse and Blight can. Not only that but 2 of those 4 killers you mentioned is map dependant like Blight and Ghoul. My argument is that most players in this game are bad on both sides therefore it's not an issue but we already know that Ghoul is getting his 18th nerf it's inevitable.
Yes, he can. He can use his power to get easy down on survivor, I would count that…
Unless you want to tell me, Spirit can't use her power to down survivors?
Ghoul's vault can down survivors, so it's not even technically correct.
I don't know what to tell you, i like facing Ghoul, he's actually fun to face unlike Nurse, Hillbilly and Blight 24/7. I am going to be really sad if they give him his 18th nerf.
Don't worry everyone. If you're sick of Kaneki, speed clown is here to zoom around the map and make all loops trivial.
Okay, I agree that survivors shouldn't rely on exhaustion perks, and they should just be boosts you could use in chase, because exhaustion perks aren't built to be countered, their built for killers to be strong enough to out due. Meanwhile, killer powers are built with counter play to them, even if it's imperfect or really hard to do.
That said, a killer whose built to remove someone's loadout, like Plague on healing, kind of sucks to fight, and maybe that could be tweaked a little.