SWF is OP because they have no weaknesses
9 years later and SWF is still untouched. It's asinine to ignore the issue when they got all the tools and experience in hand. Killer leaving the first chase only for the killer to get outchased again by another because there is no weak link in the group.
4 or 3 good players can already decide the outcome for the match. If 2 and 2 survivor parties in a group are evenly matched, or sometimes even 4 solo queue survivors? Good luck, killer, you'll need it.
It's about time for SWF to receive some nerfs. Debuffing the team is the only option.
Comments
Stealth killers and strong don't belong in the same sentence.
But why do strong SWFs get to crutch on their role, as in it never gets nerfed or touched or anything, because bad teams also exist? That's bad logic. You're balancing off of bad players, so that good players become completely game breaking, and the same doesn't apply to killers.
Technically swf is neither op nor different from solo. Theyre the same characters, perks, items and technically can plan some stuff in the lobby (excluding comsole peasants).
So the difference is mostly mentality, comms or player skill. If it's not those three, its the character.
Then just like he nurse crusades have taught us, nerfing a character for good players winning with said character is totally acceptable, despite the majority of player sucking with the same. Dont be hypocrites lol.
The devs can't touch player skill or the mentality, and people are weird about adding comms to the game. They want all the results/info but without the actual comms. ( Ive seen people demand basekit bond, tho )
There is always a weak link. You don't always have the time to find it, as indicated in the other million threads related to generator completion speeds.
Teamwork is communication. It happens in the moment and it happens before the event. Additionally, purporting that the only benefit or majority benefit of SWF is teammate reliability is nothing but an indication of the ridiculously over powered potential existent in the SWF concept as applied here. Simply put, its people that play a lot of survivor flexing how few of the tools at their disposal they need to use to dominate in simple chases; due to their smaller hit boxes, short generator times, second chase mechanics, and so on. You'll have to play smarter to over come the advantage they have.
To address the original post, I find their weakness to be primarily egoism, and making use of that weakness to benefit your game play demands the same toolset you'd use to manage an individual afflicted with such traits in the real world. The opposite of altruism, to be direct.
They won't nerf it, its the primary income stream.
killers get balanced around the best players using them but survivors get balanced around emotional entitlement such as "Killer is unfun vs" , "The killer is boring ", "The killer is too strong for bad players". SWF isn't OP on average. it is that killer are too weak on average because they're constantly balanced around entitlement and worse players. The killer perk also have that problem.
This guy gets it. 4 Survivors exploiting how good that side ACTUALLY can be will always feel so much worse than 1 Killer doing the only things they can to exploit Survivors….slugging/tunneling/camping. It'd be different if Killer players were not conditioned into realizing how hard it is to down very good Survivors. Eventually all Killers just say F it I'm tunneling this person out as they weren't turning on DBD to sweat. People want it easier and since that ease doesn't come from naturally going after other Survivors for most, that isn't what they are going to do..
Most teams have specific roles for players to help advance the game. By understanding these roles, you can target the players who truly drive the game forward.
Regarding SWF, skill development is the only effective countermeasure, which is why developers haven't modified it. Identifying team players from non-team players pregame can be challenging for Behavior. Even if you introduced a proximity mic feature, enforcing its use would be difficult.
Which might be good. Just look at where the need for balancing has led us. Sometimes a bit if chaos is ok. Dbd is not a competetive e-sports game. It was never designed to be one and the amount of rules that people push on top of it just to force it into that role shows.
Removing soloq would be the first step of dbds march into the grave. We want this game to succeed. Not to die out.
You seriously can’t see how voice communication between teammates provides a significant advantage? wow…
Let me help:
Should I keep going? All of these are benefits that solo teams without comms do not have access to.
I agree with this sentiment. You can't perfectly balance it and I've always understood that, but there are still GLARINGLY bad issues that could easily be fixed.. One that comes to mind is the fact that BHVR made the anti-camp hook mechanic STOP the bar if another Survivor is near.. That's so stupid as NEW PEOPLE (who the mechanic should be made for) have no idea being close to us while on hook with Killer in our face, completely blocks the mechanic.. How they don't think about this stuff, I'll never understand.. It REALLY is simple..
To address this, I think that bar should be visible to all survs in range and flash red when it's paused by their presence.
Yeah. Even though I think back to years past and think "survivors were so OP then!", I kind of felt like I could do more against SWF then than I could now. Obviously I didn't have the experience back then to capitalize on it, and now that I do, killer has been nerfed to crap. But it's true. The amount of times people say, "These killers players, that I can count on 1 hand, have 1000+ win streaks!" but they'll never look at the streaks where survivors got so many 4-man outs in a row, without even giving those killers 1 hook. And it doesn't help that some people on here, who main killer, exaggerate how strong the killers are. I don't doubt in their ability or expertise, but when they say, "Clown and Freddy are really good! It's just that you guys haven't explored their potential yet!", it's just like… No.
It's inevitable that as a game's lifespan goes on, the players are gonna get better and start playing dirtier/more efficient. But I feel like this game's had that way accelerated due to survivors being immature and just demanding everything be handed to them. The survivor role really has never been that hard to play. You connect tiles together, use check spots, send 1 in to unhook, and do gens fast. But the most casual and biased of them got the devs' ears and said, "Killers having any agency in chase, or any meaningful slowdown, is OP!" So that's what you've got now, and it's why the past few years has just been a history of killers getting nerfed, resorting to new strats/perks, those get nerfed, resorting to new strats/perks, and the cycle continues because the base tools and mechanics they've got are not good enough.
A lot of killers used to be pretty decent. If you dropped some of them from their peak strength into the current game, some wouldn't be very good, like Freddy or Wraith, but others I think could be strong, like Deathslinger or Pinhead. I didn't like the Spirit nerf, because she went from a mindgame killer, which took lots of skill from both sides, to a killer who just chased faster... while phased. 🤷♀️ Freddy was a glorified M1 with a bit of slowdown, but still got nerfed because he was "S tier" and took "forever" to beat. Deathslinger really hits hard, because I mained him, and he's just ruined now. His quick scope and smaller TR are all he had, and they nerfed them. "His shots are unreactable!" You're not supposed to just be able to react to the killer's power. It's about being unpredictable. And Wraith pretty much has the most counterplay in the game, if you think about it, and he got nerfed just because he had a fast/long lunge...
I've been conditioned to tunnel. It physically feels bad when I force myself not to tunnel, because I know I'm making a bad play. But with the dumb DS rebuff, Shoulder The Burden, and all the other Terminator off-the-hook perks survivors get, I'm leaning more and more towards slugging. I've had pretty good successes with it. But after the devs nerf that, which they inevitably will, I really don't know what we're gonna do. Nobody wants to play a role where they're set to lose the moment they go against equally skilled opponents.
Killers do complain and eventually get survivor perks nerfed but the nerfs are often extremely slow if they happen. It does happen on both sides but I will agree that it does happen a whole lot more with survivors complaining about killers than the other way around and killer nerfs come down far faster a significant amount of the time.
Just gonna pull a random example. Vecna was nerfed within weeks of his release, but MFT took 6 months or more to be nerfed. BU FTP lasted even longer than that. It can be very frustrating because it feels as though there is a double standard. Thats not completely true but that doesn't stop it from feeling really really bad.
Most attempts to have a discussion about this kind of stuff results in people gaslighting and a bunch of stupid, pointless fighting. I doubt this will be any different, but prove me wrong.
100% agree, i often run tinkerer to sneak up on survivors doing gens undetected but coms negate that perk entirely by simply saying "killer left me, heading for you". By the time I get to the gen they are long gone. Soloq and swf are worlds apart.
😊 Trying my best to behave but I can't promise anything lol
I completely understand. :/
Why nerf the reason why players play the game
SWF have weaknesses, tunneling/camping/slugging. SWF are not likely to leave their friends to die on hook or bleed out on the ground, so those three things are the most optimal way to deal with SWF and the halt the match to get a snowballing effect.
Problem is, those three things destroy SoloQ as SoloQ can't possibly keep up with the level of coordination that's needed to subvert those mechanics. Those three things, while also being the most optimal to deal with SWF, are still not great ways to deal with good SWF and the Killer will still have an unfun time, unless it's a cracked out Nurse or Blight since they ignore game mechanics and are broken, which is justified to deal with SWF…. which again ruins SoloQ.
I'm seeing a pattern here. You're right though OP, SWF need nerfs!
-Debuff their gen progression speeds per SWF amount in party. Wouldn't affect SoloQ one bit so Surv overall isn't nerfed and would increase gen repair times for SWF to offset their coordinated information.
-Only allow SWF to bring in brown tools and brown add-ons. Entices SWF to engage with chests and also deters stacks of broken tools being brought into the match.
-Don't allow repeat perks. All SWF in a party must bring in different perks so they all can't stack the meta or all can't stack 2nd chance perks to troll the Killer.
Then slugging/camping/tunneling could actually be addressed by BHVR with meaningful mechanic changes and then wow, the game is so much better for everyone since Killer won't get abused every match, SoloQ can become playable again, and SWF can still focus on playing with their friends.
See, when people are talking about "punishing people for playing with friends", they're referring to this kinda thing.
I get that friends like to play games together. But the game isn't balanced for it. I don't want to see SWF get removed or anything, and would just settle with a small debuff to gen speed. If y'all never compromise with reasonable solutions, we'll just keep getting unreasonable solutions. SWF is many killers' reason to not play the game, because when the survivors know what they're doing, it's just a group bullying simulator.
The issue with all that is the solos being thrown in with paired up survs who do gens way slower and are forced to run less effective builds. One thing the devs have consistently shown is they wish players to run what they like.
The MMR does suck, but Killer has been buffed to deal with SWF since the game has been balancing around SWF, SoloQ is just completely like running into a brick wall with the goal of going through it. Most Killers are miserable by how they treat SoloQ players when no real thread of losing is posed.
Every balance change would be "punishing" with that kind of logic, so why balance anything at all? Balancing is not "punishing", stop crying because you don't want your clear advantage to be corrected. Those changes wouldn't impact SWF groups that play the game to have fun.
I get that completely... I was playing devils advocate
Sooooo what did adding the hud for survivors do to punish swfs? That improved balance via giving solos similar info. A balance change that doesn't punish playing with friends. Tada…
Pretty sure that first one would defiantly impact any swf group but that aside, can you name 3 games where there are penalties for playing with friends?
How would you go about "Nerfing" Swfs?
Being in a SWF doesn't make you a good player. You are just more likely to find good players playing together in a SWF.
It was true 9 yeats ago as it is today. The only way to nerf SWF is to kill the game. By that I mean, any changes to SWF will remove any value in playing for the majority of the playerbase.
Now you can make claims like buff solo survivor but that would be foolish. It is not possible to have 4 strangers play like 4 irl friends. It just degrades into shouting matches.
If you're that worried about SWFs just play Blight… Youll get easy 4ks with not a lot of effort.
Against virtually any killer except for nurse or blight, if players are well matched in skill, a SWF will nearly allways if not absolutly always hold an advantage. This is because of voice comms and perk stacking together. This is why despite SWFs only truely breaking the game balance at the higher levels of play, you see average players complain about it. The advantage provided by voice comms is not fair and the devs do not take it into account because if they did they would be forced to make a choice between banning it entirely or balancing around it and then having to go back and massively overhaul the games balance in a dramatic way.
SWF looks op because so many games are headless chickens in solo queue when you actually have people working together as a team it's jarring.
I agree with the SWF shouldn't be able to have any of the same perks. That's just stupid.
I don't know how you would implement this or any other change to SWF.
People bring up gen-debuffs, but when asked no one can give a consensus on 2-man or 3-man. Like the other poster said, solo-queue suffers without the information a SWF provides and usually has randoms running around not knowing what to do unless you're high MMR.
I'd just implement it and the friends can figure it out themselves. That's already what the devs expect of player currently and with limitations like this it'd add more structure, which is exactly what DBD needs. More structure would put a cap on stuff like SWF. You want to play the game with 4 people for the communication advantage that's fine, just realize that no 2 people can have the same perk. Discuss it amongst your team before queuing up. This is also a pretty tame change that would go over much better than others I've seen suggested like slowing the generators down.
Eh, that's just bringing comp-styled gameplay to casual games of SWF.
Not all SWF are good, lol. I just find it odd that out of all games that involve playing with friends people want to add restrictions to how others play with one another. SWF has a marginally higher chance of winning compared to regular solo-queue and adding restrictions to a player base that primarily plays the game isn't it, imo.
I would argue making solo-queue more in-line with SWF and buffing F-tier killers is a better alternative, especially with how loops have been obliterated anyways.
Again, I typically duo-que, so are you implying that if my friend brings Sprint Burst I can't bring it or does this change only impact 3 man/4 man SWFs?
They'll never be able to make solo Q games anywhere close to SWF with the current tutorials they have in place. They expect the new people to look the information up themselves, which is their first mistake. Nerfing SWF would be 10x easier. I doubt many people would care about this type of change. All it does is limit the amount of spamming the same strategy per Survivor while promoting using different perks when there are so many in the game. We can agree to disagree, however this rule I'm suggesting would only apply to 4 man SWFs as I have no idea how they'd even code that for 2man or 3man groups that include random folks.
Yet limiting how people play as well.
We're already at a 60% killrate for killers as per the developers, yet you want to restrict SWF to playing with other perks. SWF is not comp DBD and doesn't need the restrictions that comp DBD needs.
Again, do you consider 2 man SWF strong? Does 2 man SWF need to be addressed or are we primarily focusing on 4 man stacks?
That's Behavior's fault for putting in terrible tutorials and the onnus of getting better in a game typically requires the person to either
a): spectate players
b): go on YouTube to figure out tips and strategies
or c): taking time to read perk descriptions and figured out optimal builds
Look at any popular multiplayer game and you'll see that people typically need outside sources to git gud at a game. Dead By Daylight is no exception to this rule and if you want to improve as survivor or killer, you typically need to watch people who know what they're doing to get a better idea of how to "win".
As I said if you read the full post. Crappy website constantly reloading and saving messages when they are not complete. 4man only. Agree to disagree.
I suppose, we can agree to disagree. 😊
My bad, I was in the shower and didn't read that specific point.
But regardless, I don't see a point of nerfing SWF. Most SWF are not team Elysium with clock callouts and not bully squads (they're not doing gens anyways). It's a non-issue to me, I just value player freedom.
There are ways to improve solo-queue, such as showing the anti-camp meter. (that's one example) or even implementing a ping system similar to what a map add-on does. Even introducing the ability to see each other's perks would go a long way. There are definitely ways to improve solo-queue to become more coordinated as we've seen with the HUD update and built in borrowed time. Thanks for the discussion anyways. 😅
Understandable. SWF just hurts the game far too much for Killer as literally NOTHING is kept secret from even a decent 4man. Killers have to rely on some secrets otherwise it's a steam roll. Not to mention map offerings still being in the game. I'd remove those altogether. Map offerings just rig the game for one side. Sure it feels good to beat the odds like a Trapper on Eerie of Crows, but the mere thought of sending everyone to a specific map to favor your side shouldn't even be an option.
Yes, that's why I don't believe there should be built in-Bond or Kindred as it makes Trapper and Hag harder to play for example.
That's why I brought up the ping system to compensate for the lack of communication solo-queue gets. It helps people play and works around communication and I believe it would help solo-queue in the long run to implement the changes I've suggested above.
I definitely agree about map offerings, if anything I'd rework them to be the inverse of what they are. If a killer for example brings Badham, it reduces Badham from the pool and helps keep Dead By Daylight's RNG in tact. The same could be said about killer, however. The times I've been sent to Midwich or Dead Dawg (my most hated maps). Obviously they'd have to do something about sacrificial wards, but I agree that one side shouldn't be able to tip the balance in their favor unless items and add-ons are in play.
Yes I like that idea. The map offerings could be a "DON'T TAKE US THERE!" option. Will the devs implement it though.? No..probably not. :/
Would help killers who have many Badham offerings for sure. 😂
Thanks for the discussion, I enjoyed it. The game is very outdated in my opinion and changes come to the game very slowly. It would help and liven up the game, imagine 5 map offerings dictating the game to not go to each specific realm but no, instead it's a roll of the dice on who picked what map offering. I hardly use map offerings unless I'm tired of seeing the same map (Coldwind Farm and Shelter Woods). I usually opt for bloodpoints and typically I don't burn Badham offerings as I know most of the time the killer will DC in the loading screen or tunnel because that's all they can do on the large map. ☠️
The game is indeed outdated AF. It actually hurts to see the passion not flowing like it would be from developers who really REALLY care. This is what happens when people get comfortable. DBD really needs a wake up call. I should also point out that perhaps they do pour as much passion into the games development as they can. I'm not without empathy, but if you are working so hard on the LICENSED stuff that its affecting the quality of the core game then I think we still have a problem.
I think they have the passion obviously, especially with the crouch-tech change and Shoulder The Burden perk introduction. They just don't really listen to the community as much in my opinion and it does hurt because I do love the game. We're all passionate on the forums, hence why we're all here. 😛
I think the game needs fundamental changes to it to liven it up to a certain extent as it would help with the burnout that people have. Remedy issues on both sides, I still remember the time they did the AMA on Reddit and people brought up seeing each other's perks and they said it would be too time consuming to do. It's sad as the game has been evolving so much with many perks being introduced since my time of playing (2020/2021), yet they have the time to add in what perks we have and what they do when we pause the game. They can do the same for other people and their perks. I can't even use Deliverance when I play with randoms, for example. There's many things that I would have introduced a while ago, but Behavior seems to not really take in community feedback most of the time and usually introduce things that not many people ask for and ignore issues that are more profound. It's mind-boggling in a way, sadly.
It is not even remotely fair to force the rest of the playerbase to deal with poor balance and constant over buffing and over nerfing of perks and killer powers. Many games have special game balance rules they apply if you work as a premade. Why couldnt it work in DBD too?
4-mans are by far the tiniest SWF groups out there. Only targeting them imo would be a waste of the dev's resources and time, when there's so many other aspects of the game needing attention. This sounds mostly sounds an issue at the higher MMR areas anyway, which they do not balance for in the first place.
Until we get a competitive and casual player base pool, sure.
But regardless, I don't like the fact that you're limiting people to specific perks. If people want to run specific builds, let them run specific builds. What builds/perks do you find overly problematic in a four man SWF?
Edit: even duplicated perks, can you provide me a list?
You speak as if the devs don't already put way too much time into wasteful changes. :P I agree btw. It is a much more noticeable problem at higher MMR.
Or make changes to things no one even asked for! 😋
Get out of my head! xD
You don't know how to code mechanics into DBD to block Survs in a SWF from having duplicate perks? Thank god you're not a Dev. Let's let a BHVR Dev do that, yea?
Likewise, mechanics such as gen debuffs can be given to SWF in varying degrees of amount. 4man SWF gets the largest and 2 man SWF get's the lowest debuff. SoloQ Survs get no debuff. Simple, easy, logically is sound since Killers complain about gen speeds from SWF coordination.
All things could be added to the Test Servers to check viability, but what BHVR does currently is absolutely nothing and it's been ruining the game.