When will the developers finally adapt “Windows of Opportunity”?
Don't get me wrong,
but if the developers want to change the meta further, they need to adapt this perk.
It's time for this perk to get a cooldown.
Change my mind
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Don't get me wrong,
but if the developers want to change the meta further, they need to adapt this perk.
It's time for this perk to get a cooldown.
Change my mind
Read THIS post.
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Comments
Exactly… if people are asking for a nerf to a survivor perk, it will happen. I never thought they would touch adrenaline, and they did. Let's just look at the fact that a 30-second cooldown is a long time. It might as well be an exhaustion perk at that point.
It's not reaaaaaaaaaally. The killer is always going to know where pallets have been broken.
It should be basekit at this point. There are 42 map variants and most of those have RNG pallets that spawn sometimes and don't in other games. To expect a normal player who doesn't no life this game to know all of this without a perk is madness.
It's simply bad approach to break meta by nerfing already working perks...
It never worked, it always annoy players, just don't...
Please, no more obnoxious downsides to perks that are actually viable. If you don't remember, the only reason people began using the perk is because they removed the awful cooldown, while also buffing the range to 32m from 20m.
I think nerfing it to 24m would be enough of a nerf. I think it gives too much info at 32m, 24 is more reasonable.
I'd nerf it by limiting its range to 24 meters. Nothing more.
WoO isn't just unhealthy, as I've said in a post I made ages ago, it's actively ruining the balance of the game because it extends chases, especially if the players you're chasing would have no idea where they should be running without it.
which in turn makes gens go "faster" because it's taking longer for killers to catch survivors that are holding W from yellow aura to yellow aura with zero thought or skill.
That's the other awful part of WoO, it enhances THE most boring part of dbd for killer. Holding W. and even worse you can't deadzone a player with WoO because they can literally see there's nothing to use, so they'll avoid that area.
If you only play survivor you wont notice it but as killer, you'll find that half the time you're chasing a player who is ONLY looking forward and consistently making it to pallets hidden behind walls again, and again. it's insanely unfun and baffles me why it's the currently most used perk in the game and has remained unchanged since they buffed it a year or two ago. meanwhile killer perks routinely get nerfed for high pick rates because they're unfun to go against as survivor. Can we, for the love of god have some consistency there.
It should be reverted to have it's old cooldown. or go on cooldown after you fast vault with it like other perks, dance with me, quick and quiet. etc.
No, a nerf is not needed.
This perk helps a ton of people, not just veterans but mostly newcomers to the game.
Its already overwhelming as it is, coming into the game with 200+ perks on each side, bloodweb grind, what killers are good, bad, how to play against each specific killer, etc.
This thread feels exactly like a 'Nerf Distortion' thread, lol.
I don't like whataboutism, but if WoO doesn't need a nerf, then Weave + Franklin's doesn't either.
See it like this:
The survivor sees the resources in an area.
As a killer, my resource is the survivor for I need hooks and gens for I need to defend them (the latter I see constantly). I can (if I'd run the combo mentioned) see the survivor constantly.
The easy way to counter 2 perks on killer is to take item, run corner, drop item.
I would need blindness addons/perks to do the same.
Just as Distortion (counters like 70+ things or something), WoO limits killer builds. I can't see you? Gen regression. I can't outmindgame you since you only hold W? Gen regression, hit and run. Why run blindness, if gen regression/slowdown is better overall?
Granted I don't play that way, because I don't play to win, since I play both sides and I know how frustrating getting tunneled might be for certain individuals that don't want to learn chase.
Kate may be a non licensed character, but you can not tell me a new player instantly knows about the perk and uses it unless they get told to get Kate, level her up and use her perk.
If survivors keep yapping about killer perks, the killers are allowed to voice their opinion on survivor perks that are overused, too.
Your reasoning isn't good enough to accept a "No, a nerf is not needed."
What is the reason people wouldn't accept a cooldown after a rushed action for example? You can preplan your route, memorize, execute. Instead of just "me see yellow me press space" (yoinked that from JRM).
Besides learnresistance there is no other reason.
If I have to learn to anticipate people hiding behind a rock edgemap or others living in lockers, survivors can easily learn looping too, no?
So I'm going to address your entire post in points.
Oh boy,…
1.
No. You put words in my mouth (hands, whatever) that I did not say. I said "if you don't want the aura perk nerfed that shows survivors the resource, so should no perk be nerfed that does the same for killer. I never said "it isn't a problem". It pretty much is. Just like WoO. Please stop interpreting and actually read or otherwise this discussion is not a discussion but a 'talking past each other'.
You can not compare a disposable item with a killer power. You are grasping for straws to counter a statement.
2.
That's learning resistance on the survivor's part. Why not drop your item at the beginning of the trial to check? I do, why can't others? Running from yellow to yellow isn't healthy either, and ppl still defend it.
3.
No one I know relies on aura. The game is playable without it. It's a question of build variety. If one perk is able to counter a whole build, then that's fine?
I already explained why WoO limits builds. Because the counter to it (perks and addons on killer side, p.e. blindness) aren't good enough to warrant running them, so the best thing you fall back to is good ol' reliable. People don't like the meta as it is stale, yet they are reluctant to accept changes to offer more build variety in return.
4.
No one can speak for a new player unless they are a new player. But I never see new players in the forums talking about it or participating in these type of discussions (granted I rather spend my time elsewhere, so I also don't really look for them). (Personally, not generally:) As a new player I didn't know Kate was a must have. So if I have to google for the knowledge or if I have to have friends telling me, then that's general consensus between people with a bit of playtime to know their way around builds, not between new players that just downloaded the game to play.
I won't discuss the definition of "new" because I will have a different point of view on that one as well.
5.
There is no reasoning. You just straight up said "I'm better than you". That's not reasoning, that's ego.
"You guys." - Yeah, us guys who? The guys that are "worse" than you? Since you are "better"? The guys that need to "learn how to play"? (Which is quite ironic, bc people that rely on WoO don't really know how to play without it. But I digress…) That's not an argument, nor is it reason.
6.
"We" who? Every survivor main in existence? I could be classified as a survivor main, too. Please don't say "we" when there is no definitive definition of "we". I want WoO nerfed and I have my fair share of survivor hours. Especially would I like it nerfed because WoO players eat up resources that don't need to be used up, that I could later on use in chase.
Distortion incentivises (my german brain can't tell if this is the right spelling, whoopsie…) Hide and Seek playstyles. Not on every person, mind you. Neither does every WoO user just hold w from yellow to yellow. From my experience most of them do though. No matter what side I'm playing, or if they have 10k hours or 2k.
7.
Please link me the sources to that statement and also the sources of other content creators and streamers saying exactly the opposite. You can't just cherry-pick everything that agrees with you and then not do the necessary work to find the others that disagree.
You are making it sound as if I'm a) a killer main and b) i got an ego. Neither is true. You just ego-checked me in your 5th point though. Just food for thought.
And even then giving WoO a 30 second cooldown after a fast vault wont stop new players from being able to use it to find a nearby pallet but will stop players from using the perk as an actual easy mode for the game.
Also no, your "reasoning" isn't good. it's just you avoiding outright saying it makes the game easier, which you effectively did.
Which is the EXACT reason it's a problem, it raises the skill floor so high that even a fresh install could just run to the yellow and press space bar, repeat and do well. That is a problem, especially as playing killer against that feels genuinely awful, there's no skill involved, no thought process, only holding W. You either drop chase when they drop some decent pallets or lose 3 gens trying to get them on an unsafe pallet to down them.
Again, this "we" explains also why you don't find distortion to be a problem either. the fun of playing killer is getting into chases, the point of distortion is to avoid getting into a chase and rewards you with more protection if you don't get into a chase, letting you sit on your gen until it's completed after the killer came looking for you 3 times and couldn't find you because you're hiding behind a rock at the edge of the map with urban evasion.
A: they're playing nurse.
B: they're playing a ranged killer and will just hit them over the pallet or before they get to it.
C: they're playing pre nerf blight.
D: they're playing a killer that insta breaks pallets.
And even then it doesn't change the fact that WoO is holding up a decent % of survive rates, that has no doubt resulted in killer buffs. If WoO got reverted to have it's old cooldown, it's use rate wouldn't drop but the survival rate of those using it would drop instantly because you can't just hold W from yellow to yellow for the entire game. they'll actually have to use their brains to know where they're going.
The fact of the matter is that WoO is DBD's own easy mode, and there's no way it remaining unchanged at the highest pickrate in the entire game because it's an easy mode is acceptable.
The haddonfield rework had nothing to do with WoO, and everything to do with it being a garbage map. The first iteration was an unbalanced mess that heavily favored Balanced Landing. The first rework had a disgusting 3-gen, but also had multiple house of pain loops. The rework of the rework took away the house loops, and shrunk the map. I used like 3 pallets in a single chase, and that was most of the pallets on the map.
Killer perks get nerfed for high usage rates/being too strong, as do survivor perks. It depends on the perk's function. Ruin, for example, passively regressing generators that aren't actively being worked on is far stronger than WoO, which shows you pallets and vaults.
If WoO is so problematic, why don't killers run Hex: The Third Seal? Several killers have blindness add-ons, so you could even get away with not having to sacrifice a perk slot. Could even run Hex: Blood Favor.
Why would a cleansable (off spawn) perk be better than a perk that has 100% uptime unless a person uses up to 4 perks and 2 addons to counter it? The math ain't mathing.
This is a rhetorical question that doesn't need to be answered.
The inherent weakness of hex perks being cleansable off spawn doesn't make them weaker than a perk that, despite having 100% uptime, only shows you the locations of pallets and vaults. You also only need to use one perk or add-on to counter WoO.
Not all perks are created equal.
If killer perks get nerfed for high usage rates why hasn't WoO been nerfed yet for the same reason. it's been the most used perk in the game for multiple chapters. dead hard had to get a 50% usage rate before they """""nerfed"""" it.
What year are you playing the game in where ruin is stronger than WoO? the undying ruin meta? like 2019? maybe even the og ruin where it made you regress the gen with good skillchecks? you might want to use your time machine for something more productive.
Assuming you aren't a time traveller, which has some worrying implications for that take. ruin is going to get cleansed within the first 30 seconds because someone spawned on top of it and if it doesn't it will after a survivor realizes it's active and then realizes because ruin is being used that means the killer doesn't have any gen kicking perks. and the list of perks that could be using is narrowed and if they are using a gen kicking perk with ruin, not cleansing ruin actually turns ruin against the killer.
I love the "counter x perk by running niche weird barely useful perk" yeah man, go counter pre nerf pain res dead man switch by running calm spirit, it's an easy counter just use calm spirit. because that's a great idea for the game's health. railroad players into using specific perks to counter problematic perks that people don't enjoy going against by just making them have to dedicate part of their build to deal with 1 potential perk they *could* go against.
No perks are created equal yet you undermine the strength of a perk with 100% uptime.
You just said one should just run Third Seal which is counterable by cleansing it (once again). So are the other perks you named that don't need running if there is better options out there.
Other perks (Mindbreaker for example) are highly situational. You hear a TR approaching. Get off gen, walk off blindness and exhaustion.
Bullhorn? Only when cleansing, so only really useful in a full build around stealth gameplay or paired with Iri Vial (aka 2 addons, not just one).
Septic Touch? Only in the TR.
Ultimate Weapon? Only in a certain range around the locker.
So to cover all bases I would have to run up to 4 perks to keep the blindness up reliably.
If a perk you claim to not be as strong as people make it out to be needs 4 perks to RELIABLY (once again, I say words like this for a reason) counter that one perk that has a reliable uptime, the math clearly isn't mathing (as previously stated).
No, It's not time to nerf Windows of Opportunity. Justification: the developers already laid their nerfing hands on adrenaline. Cut the survivors some slack. Until they nerf a bunch of popular killer perks like noed, and then release three insanely powerful survivors that said perks would be great counters to, then no nerfing anything.
I'd be for a minor nerf. Not because it's extremely powerful nor anything like that. Moreover to mix up the perks more.
However, were this to be nerfed a little, first there needs to be changes made to lesser used perks to make them more viable. Boost them first, see what the usage is, and then - if Windows of Opportunity is still high up - nerf it a bit.
I feel like we should focus on gen speeds on the survivor side, like it has been done on the killer side too.
Windows is not that big of a diffrence to experienced players, i can loop quite ok without it and there is many people that can loop mutch better than me. Windows is a convienient thing to know which loop to take, yes this is an advantage but not as big as people make it sound to be.. Deadzones can be created still. I'd say alert and any means neccessary are mutch stronger info perks even though they are slept on.
The gen speeds in general are the far bigger issiue.
What on earth makes you think you need to run a full build to counter WoO? I listed off counters to the perk. You pick one and roll with it.
You'd be surprised at how long a Hex like Third Seal can remain active. If the hex perk in question provides a minor inconvenience at best, Survivors are unlikely to waste their time looking for it.
I'm not undermining the strength of the perk. WoO is an information type perk. It cannot compete, in terms of strength, with regression perks. They are fundamentally different.
Yes, Third Seal can be cleansed. What's your point here?
If you're looking for a permanent non-counterable solution to WoO, then you aren't going to find it. You don't need to run 4 perks to keep the blindness readily up. The goal is not to permanently keep the perk out of play.
The most notable killer perks to be nerfed for high usage rates have been regression perks. When WoO is passively repairing generators, then we can say they're equivalent in strength. Ruin was just an example, and is objectively stronger by virtue of being a regression perk.
It's a little thing called Counterplay.
I know this is really hard for all you Windows complainers to understand, but the problem is not WoO. It's map design. Nerfing the perk won't fix bad map design. Pre-nerf Pain Res DMS couldn't be countered by Calm Spirit. You wouldn't scream, but you'd still let go of the gen.
What perks would you switch to if WoO got removed tomorrow?
Because I can't think of a single killer perk that would be better off that isn't gen regression. I can think of a large number of perks that would be marginally less effective if the survivor isn't bee-lining for resources all the time, but the only perks I can think of that would be better off without WoO are, ironically, gen regression perks.
So this argument kinda feels like the classic forum killer gambit of 'Do what we say or else we do more of the thing you dislike'.
Why would this perk need a cool down when there is only a X number of pallets that 4 survivors share which is the biggest part of this perk to not go where there are no pallets.A single survivor that's good enough can use almost half the pallets in one chase so by the time the 3rd survivor gets chased his perk is almost useless. The windows are always there. I think u have a skill issue not a survivor perk issue.
You are coming from a disingenuous and biased perspective, you're not in it for game health or to mix things up. Just like the people who wanted Iron Will & Distortion nerfed into the ground.
No one says that changing or removing WoO would be the only thing that needs to happen (mind you, I didn't ask for removal and I'm tired of people interpreting stuff into what is said, that isn't there).
A lot of things would need change for regression to get "dethroned", but that's not the the point here. The point is the absolute brainafk playstyles.
I won't talk to someone that calls someone that plays both sides equally 'biased' and keeps egochecking them, twisting words or only reading half of what has been said, because that's just a waste of my time.
(You haven't clarified either what you actually are, but you seem to talk a lot like a survivor main that exclusively plays that role though.)
You asked for clarification on multiple occasions while I already clarified and I am not willing to repeat myself over and over again like a broken record.
You don't keep me in an argument that way.
Counterplay =/= reliable counterplay. (Since I like to talk about Weave + Frankies a lot I guess one could say the counterplay to that is bringing OoO and or carrying the item to the edge of the map.
But yeah, keep telling people to fight a forest fire with a spraybottle.
Y'all are so focused on keeping your precious perks the way they are, actively denying change or meta shakeups.
Keep doing it. It's your right. But next time come with actual arguments that make sense instead of instantly calling 'bias' while the only ones biased are you yourselves.
Stepping in here with a reminder to please keep the discussions in here civil and respectful, please. Everyone is welcome to give their opinions or thoughts on the subject, so long as the Forum Rules are followed when doing so.
Weave only takes effect when your item's charges are reduced to zero. No perk is needed to counter it, and unless you're running a perk to recharge your item you can just drop it somewhere at 1 charge. Unless you're getting into a chase with the killer early or running either a flashlight, key, or medkit, Frankie's isn't going to be a problem.
I don't think Weave + Frankie's is a big problem tbh. It's easily countered, and those perks aren't anywhere near as strong as regression perks.
On the subject of WoO and "reliable counterplay": You have Enduring + Spirit Fury which is a general pallet counterplay. You also have the Hex perks Third Seal, and Blood Favor. There are also add-ons that inflict blindness. There is a risk that your Hex could be broken at the start of the game, but that's down to RNG. It's not guaranteed to happen.
As far as afflictions go, Blindness is probably the least impactful. It hides auras, which doesn't really bother survivors too much unless they're running a full aura build. This means that a hex like Third Seal is either going to be cleansed because someone spawned on it, or stay up for the entire round because it's not inconveniencing the survivors enough that they feel the need to look for it.
Whether you like it or not, Window of Resistance is an autopilot perk and too strong for good survivors. This perk needs a cooldown, otherwise it will stay at the top forever and that won't happen. Too much time has already been lost
Windows of Oppurtunity and Kindred both need to be basekit. As it is playing Killer is easier than a PvE game.
Sorry, but that's ridiculous. WoO as a base kit ? for heaven's sake
I don't understand the need to change the meta witout a right motive
Removing Window will just castrate solo Q player even more, so fun running to a pallet spot just to find out it has already been used.
Why would good Survivors need a "autopilot" Perk.
Why are you asking me such a question? you know full well that WoO is by far the most used survival aid and enough good survivors use it just to drag out chases.
I am asking you a question and I would expect an answer. That a Perk is the most used does not mean that it is problematic.
And well, calling it an "autopilot" Perk would mean that the Survivor would be on Autopilot, but I dont see why good Survivors would need to be on autopilot.
Killers are often told to stop relying on aura reads and develop "game sense"
I would say the exact same thing for Windows of Op. You don't have to use your brain at all and remember where chases have happened and potentially what pallets have been used. Its literally survivor game sense made manifest as a perk.
I don't think it should be nerfed really, but it can't be denied it is literally insane value and an auto pilot perk that makes all your chase decisions next to perfect. You will NEVER run to a loop thinking there is a pallet there when there's not ever.
and that is my answer. You know very well that WoO in its current form is too strong and are trying to play it down.
No, you said specifially autopilot, which would mean that those Survivors are not good, because otherwise they would not need a Perk which puts them on autopilot. Yet you specifically mentioned good Survivors.
And nah, I dont care about WoO. I care about Killers who struggle with the game and try to nerf everything instead of trying to improve. But WoO? I am not running it and if they would nerf it, it would only be good for me since I play against it when playing Killer.
No reason for me to downplay anything.
What you are doing is asking why a good driver would ever drive an automatic if they know how to drive a manual, when the answer is simple: Because it is easier and effortless.
Good survivors maybe don't "need" an autopilot perk, but they use it anyway because it is a substitute for good game sense, removing any need to be aware of your surroundings, memorizing where pallets are, or planning an "escape route" in case the killer finds you, without any drawback or cost. This is why it is the most useful and powerful survivor perk, and consequently, the most used even by those "good survivors" (who maybe are not that good without it).
WoO should be an aid on top of having that good game sense, not a substitute for it. It should grant you the ability to check where the pallets are and plan your pathing from a distance without granting the possibility of just forgetting about all of it and press W to go from pallet to pallet when you are on chase. In other words, it needs a cooldown, and preferably one that doesn't fill after you drop your first pallet or vault your first window when you are in chase.
And by the way, the irony of complaining about "killers that don't want to improve" while "not caring" about one of the perks that removes any need for improvement from survivors is incredible.
Should every fighting game character be extremely complex, so that it's a real match of skill every time? No. Why? Because not everyone has the luxury of devoting thousands of hours to a game, so there needs to be less skill intensive options for players who have a job, children, a life. Not to mention that it's a ******* computer game. It's not a broken perk, your perception that you are using skill and your opponent is on autopilot is the problem. If you want to sweat go ahead, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to follow suit.
Removing accessibility options out of spite is ridiculous.
The fact that you think that the only complexity of a fighting game (the genre that is almost impossible to play in a casual manner precisely because of the time investment, skill and knowledge gaining needed) is knowing how your character works says everything.
And the problem is not having "accessibility options" (which in this case, is hidden behind a DLC character without any possibility for new players to even knowing it exist… so accessible), but having options that remove any need for developing any game sense or skill entirely. In fact, the problem that SF6 "Auto" mode has is that it allows you to do pretty damaging combos with just the push of a couple of buttons and without having to worry about hit confirm or timing, which makes it impossible to ever drop them, and that's why it was complained about. In contrast, Tekken 7's combo assist never bothered anybody because yeah, it allows you to make a 1-button combo, but the combos you can do with it are at most decent, allowing you to play the game when you don't know anything about it until you are ready to make the jump on learning how to really play the game.
So, even if WoO were an "accessibility tool" (which it isn't, starting with what has already been said and not even being available to new players), it is broken because it removes any need to develop a great part of the game sense necessary to be a decent survivor (remembering pallets, planning escape paths, etc.) and it provides the exact same value to new players that don't even know what to do, as to those god loopers that now know where every single pallet is so they would never, ever make a mistake.
So, it is not "out of spite", it is for obvious balance reasons.
Ah yes, I didn't list every thing that affects balance in a fighting game, therefore I know nothing. Of course. Well done.
It's a balance issue? It's the most popular perk in the game, and yet killers are doing great. So how is it breaking the balance of the game?
It doesn't matter if it stops players from reaching their highest potential. It's a game. If it helps new players, players with lmited time available and players with issues related to memory, then great. It benefits players and comes at the cost of them not reaching the peak of their skill. It's a worth while trade.
This is simply not true. There is a lot more to looping than simply knowing where pallets are. Furthermore good players know where pallets can spawn and don't need help from a perk. The only substantial benefit WoO gives to good loopers is knowing which pallets where used by other players, a benefit that is only relevant to Solo Queue.
Windows is not a replacement to skill. You could argue its used as a crutch by unskilled players but why does it matter? Unskilled players are not hard to chase regardless of WoO.
Nerfing WoO would be a benefit to the good players that still use this perk, as it would encourage them to drop it and use a better perk instead. But would be very detrimental to less skilled players that don't have a good grasp on tile generation and pallet spawns.
Windows of Opportunity is not an "accessibility option". That's absurd. I remember watching a youtuber or streamer, although I can't remember which one, who said he USED to consider Woo a crutch perk. But, that was back when there was like 1/4 the maps or whatever (don't know the exact ratio.) The only players who would be able to learn all the maps would be Neets with thousands and thousands of hours. And just having the free time to memorize all that is not "skill." That's why I think Woo should just be basekit (along with Kindred) to help narrow the gap between solo que and Swf. And then if kill rates actually go down from this (I doubt it would even be that much) then they can buff Killer to compensate in some way. The fact is for everything except maybe the very highest MMR killer has become easy mode in the game and the Survivor role is incredibly unfriendly to new players.
It isn't true at all that the only benefit to good loopers is knowing which pallets were already used. Even the best players will only have a general idea of where many of the pallets will spawn but Woo lets them know exactly.
You used the difficulty of playing a character in a fighting game to argue about its accessibility, like it is the only factor that affects the skill and knowledge requirements of it. So yes, you know nothing.
And I already explained why it is a balance issue: Because it removes any need to develop the minimum game sense required to do well in the game while allowing those that have it to never make a mistake, as all their decisions are informed ones, which ends up being unfair. Ergo, a balance issue.
It is not only a help to new players, it is a substitute for game sense at any level, and that's the problem. That's why it needs to be nerfed to a point where it is just a help for the survivor, not a forever "worth while trade" without any cost or drawback.
Yeah kinda tired of bad players with no map sense crutching the perk. Should be reworked to have a cooldown of maybe 20s but also buffed to show broken pallet locations within range even when off cooldown. That way WoO users actually need to get good and learn the maps, but soloQ players using it can still see where the broken pallets are.
This is what is simply not true. First, because not all SWF play like a SWAT team that shares every single movement they make, and second, because it allows anyone, no matter if it is a good looper or not, to make informed decisions everytime removing any possibility of making a mistake.
That's precisely the problem, that's why the "it is an accessibility option for new players" argument is not valid , because it also gives value to those good loopers that now can loop the killer from pallet to pallet without ever entering a death zone by mistake. That's why it should be nerfed.
Except, again, it allows unskilled players to:
That while, again, allowing skilled players to never make a mistake in term of pathing and what loop to play, as they will always know what loops still has a pallet.
And that's how it should be. Again, WoO should be a help on top of having the good game sense to do all the things I listed before, allowing you to have "X-Rays" and be able to plan with a lot more info that you would normally have by just looking, not a substitute to that game sense so "less skilled players" don't have the need to "have a good grasp on tile generation and pallet spawn", among other things.