Jim_Tonic
Jim_Tonic
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@Sow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3806392#Comment_3806392
You are right and I'm sorry for categorising you as a Killer main. I personally am not a Survivor main either. I play both sides but I definitely lean towards Survivor more. I play more Killer when I want to take a break from Survivor… Just goof around with Huntress etc…
Overall I can see your point with the self res. I don't want UB in the game as a basekit. I don't want the speed increased etc… It is flawed but it's an option that could make the endgame more engaging for the Survivor that is just laying there unable to do much.
It's not my intention to do a textwall lol. Sometimes you just get carried away.
Although, we both are putting words in each other mouth.
How about we start fresh on this topic… I genuinely want to find a feature that doesn't deprive Killers of their fun but still I don't think anyone enjoys laying there bleeding out.
You said you like the second idea. Scrap the self revive. Do you think the ability to sacrifice yourself after a period of time is a viable option? What conditions do you think should be met first?
It does happen like that, sometimes small disagreements can revolve into big opposing camps XD I were also at fault for assumptions like i thought you meant the abillity to pick them up over and over again and not only once (i would still not like it the one time and would find it unfair towards the killer, but thats were we can just agree to disagree)
I would say the condition for the surrender button would be:
"Once only 2 survivors are left in the trial and 3 minutes have passed. Survivors gain the abillity to call upon the entity and sacrifice themselves." It could even be the same animation as like the endgame collapse timer ran out. So there is not unneccessary animation work involved. The 3 minutes are just a number that could be replaced with litteraly any number, i wouldnt go less than that though.
Most importantly though these self sacrifices should not be counted as kills towards the killers MMR because technicly the survivors could still escape through the exit gates (if gens are done, if not yeah the killer has technicly won anyway) Vice versa they shouldnt count as loss towards the survivors MMR either. They should be treated like hatch. A draw. And the tome challenges should just be changed honestly. 4k challenges are unhealthy for the game because in order to not have a game of luck determine wether or not they get challenges, as a killer you are inclined to really slugg for it. To deny hatch like you also stated.
But there are alot of abmyssal tome challenges anyway, on survivor side too. Some even outdated to a point where they become near impossible. -
@brewingtea said:
There's no good reason a survivor shouldn't want a free win every once in awhile.
There's no good reason why a killer shouldn't want additional options.
There is literally no good reason to oppose this suggestion.
- Challenges get robbed because killer Ragequits (open the exit gate as x survivor)
- Points get robbed because killer Ragequits (exit gate points, late unhooks, etc.)
And my most important point:
FUN gets robbed because killer ragequits. Im getting bored af if i play killer and survivors just hookicide on their first hook. I dont want to face the same boring people get away with it without punishment when im playing survivor. Its bad enough on killer i dont need this ish on both sides, thanks. Why do people even que up if they just gonna ragequit out of a match? then dont play PvP games if you cant take a loss from time to time. I dont want my MMR be bloated so im facing 5k hour SWF squads/ Nurse mains just because everyone else makes me win by pushing a button on their end.
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So just remove some killer powers lol. Ok but only if we remove toolboxes and generator perks on survivor side.
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@Sow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3806345#Comment_3806345
I don't understand? I really don't get it. I explicitly said one time. Do you understand the word… one. Genuine question because I don't understand how you got the pick up over and over again.
I am in no way saying they deserve hatch. It's not impossible to 4k again you are using your own "divisive language". Also you aren't doing anything to discredit me. Matter of fact I have asked you to disprove me a couple times now and you failed. Also, you failed to prove how my idea would be abused or how it would negatively impact the game. That it would do more harm than good even. Plus, you tried to imply that I'm suggesting Survivors deserve hatch and making it "impossible" for killers to get a 4k. This is ridiculous, are you saying the only way a Killer can get a 4k is if they deny hatch before it even spawn by slugging the last two Survivors, hmm? Mate, the reason why your manipulative language fails is because I'm just saying it as it is. While you are trying to silver tongued bend things without actually disproving anything I've said.
I'm by far not being anywhere close to stubborn as well. I am literally speaking to the fact that when the Killer slugs the last two remaining Survivors. They are intentionally doing so to deny hatch even spawning. Am I entitled for wanting the base opportunity to be given for the last Survivor to try and get hatch(as the Developers intended). The hatch was implemented into the game for this very reason. Hatch isn't a win for the Survivor, it's a draw for them. I don't follow yours or others personal preferences of what a win-condition is(it's cool if you have those) but the Devs explicitly state what a win-condition is. That's the standard to which I judge the gameplay with. I find it to be fair. A 3k is a win for the Killer. Hatch is a tie for Survivor. The only win is when a Survivor escapes via the exit gates. It's obnoxious and spoiled to think a Killer can only win at a 4k. I think that's really unfair to Killers. Sincerely do you think a 3k is not a fair win-condition?
It's not biased when it's become readily apparent that the majority of those that I interact with on these Forums are Killer mains first Survivors second.
Also, where did you get this impossible 4k? What issue do you have with a Survivor not wanting to sit around twiddling their thumbs as they wait for the Killer to find the other Survivor? You failed to express how it'd be abused in accordance with my parameters. So please explain why a Survivor can't sacrifice themselves after a few minutes or pick themselves up "ONCE" from the dying state(one health state, so they'd be injured still)? I'm truly asking you to show me why this would do more harm than good?
_____________
YOUR QUESTION…
I'll answer your question "Why does the survivor side get a feature to help them in this case?" Despite I've answered this number of times above…
Forgive me but I want to clarify the question more. Why does the Survivor side get a feature to help them in this case? The case being when there are explicitly "two" Survivors left in a trial. Why should they get the ability to self revive "once" per trial and or be able to sacrifice themselves after a few minutes. I think that's fair to clarify.
We can start with hatch. By slugging the last two the Killer denies hatch even spawning. Essentially, barring a feature of the game from even taking place. Denying the last Survivor the "base" opportunity to even go for hatch.
I want to clarify when I say base I mean the literal opportunity to even go for hatch. The first example that comes to mind is going for a job interview and before you even got go for the interview you were denied. You didn't even get the opportunity to even attempt the interview. If this happens to someone in real life I'm so sorry lol.
It's not about giving hatch to the last Survivor. It's about giving them the base-intended opportunity to even try to go for hatch. Do you understand what I mean by that? If not I can attempt to clarify it better.
Alternatively, it's about making the fight more engaging. Giving the downed Survivor a self pick up once per trial assuming the conditions are met(2 Survivors left in trial) allows them to still participate in the trial. Which is better than twiddling their thumbs. It's not fun nor is it engaging laying there. In fact I'll tell you something I already said in one of the first comments on this Discussion regarding a flaw with this idea. One of the potential issues is that a Killer may wait for the self revive then down the Survivor again meaning we are back to square one. I don't know why this was difficult for you to say, it's an obvious one I think.
Hence, I kinda like option two a bit more. The ability to sacrifice yourself while downed was an option(again assuming the conditions are met 2 survivors left in trial) then the Survivor can initiate the hatch part of endgame. This doesn't have to occur and if a Survivor "chooses" to stay they can. It's not a forced mechanic but an optional one. For those who don't want to sit in the downed state for 4 minutes. It may not seem like a lot of time but that is nearly half the time of an average trial. Being that trials can last on average 10 minutes above or below. Meaning when the Killer slugs one of the two remaining Survivors on the ground… They are essentially robbing you of half of a trials length almost. Most times you wont bleed out and the other Survivor will be downed before the 4 minutes mark which actually brings me to the next issue.
When you deny hatch and slug. there is a good chance that Survivor will have to hide or loop for 4 minutes straight. This is at endgame where there generally are a lack of pallets. Meaning Survivors are more likely to go down much sooner. Additionally that means the Survivor has to not only evade the Killer for 4 minutes assuming they don't hook but they also have to then search for hatch. Even if the Killer comes back in 2-3 minutes to hook the Survivor because they couldn't find the other one. It's still not fun.
It's funny I'm talking about fun and you are concerned about Killers "win". I'm not even talking about the Survivor getting hatch or deserving the win just for them to have a more engaging and fun experience. You are more concerned about a Killer getting a 4k. I'm not even talking about Survivors winning. I don't care if I get hatch or die in the end. I just want to not waste my time or I want to have the base-intended chance to even attempt to get hatch. If I get it cool if not at least it was a fun little 1v1 at the end.
Its insane how you can write down so much and actually say so little.
Also Loads of assumptions and words putting in my mouth AGAIN.
I will stand by with what i initially said before it gets too complicated, no matter how hard you try to derive the point:
BOTH sides are stubborn in a scenario like this. Giving the survivors a basekit unbreakable is just implying the killers are at fault here, when its equally the survivors too that just hide and wait for hatch, not touching gens at all and dragging the game into length. And yeah you claim "but they only do it because killers slugg" which is funny because they have not been slugged yet even.
So again, when its both sides fault, why do the survivor get a cake for it? Try to explain it without another textwall of nothingness.
Also you say this:- "It's not biased when it's become readily apparent that the majority of those that I interact with on these Forums are Killer mains first Survivors second."
Funny how my experience is the exact opposite. Yet im not the one who started saying you are a "survivor main", you claimed im biased for killers with only 1 comment of mine, clearly showing your own tribalism. Which is so stupid ( NOT YOU, the tribalism in general i call stupid) because majority of people does play both sides, very view stick to 50% of the game and only ever touch the other side. It should be MORE people that play both sides, there is still alot that only ever experience their sides issiues. But if you are so fixated in putting me in some sort of category and deciding alredy where my views are, from only 1 single comment.. I cant take you serious then, sorry. You are the very issiue that you are ranting about.
Also another Note: Its even sad you decide to stick to tribalising me because with your second point i can resonate very mutch. "Surrender button" or something like that with a timer after x amount of seconds no progress in either hooks or gens when only 2 survivors are left. Whatever.
But i dont agree with your first suggsestion, not at all. And my reasoning is above. -
@Sow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3806295#Comment_3806295
So if a Survivor only gets one self revive. This specifically only activates when the last two Survivors are alive. Not 3 or 4 but only 2 Survivors are left.
Only and only then could a Survivor pick themselves up "one health-state".
OR
Allowing a Survivor to self sacrifice themselves after a couple of minutes of being left on the ground. *(again only activates with two survivors left in the trial)*
All I got from you was no cause no. Please explain what you don't agree with. What part of my idea do you find will be abused?
EDIT* I'm beginning to understand why nothing really gets proper feedback in the forums. It's dawning on me that a large portion of responses I see on posts (even mine) are from Killer mains. The realisation that I'm talking to the people that "of course" don't want what I'm saying.
And there we have it, if someone disagrees they must be biased.
What about all the 4k challenges? If you make it impossible to 4k essentially (because people can get up over and over again, even when its only 2 left) or even them sacrificing themselves so the other might get hatch, ofc as a survivor main you dont see a problem here (see im using the same divisive language like you just did, which kinda ruined all credibillity you had).
Fact is, mostly survivors AND killers are too stubborn to just end the game. Why does the survivor side get a feature to help them in this case? -
Basekit UB suggsestion again? no. No this is bad, it will be abused by survivors in an instant.
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@Altan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3806213#Comment_3806213
You do realise if the killer quits you still get escape points and task validation for escaping? Changes literally nothing for you if you're at the escape gate or not.
Also the penalty in itself is so stupid I can't even comprehend. I have maybe 1/7 or 1/8 bad matches against sweaty try hards that I usually leave, and my penalty still increases to the next rank. I'd understand the increase if you keep leaving in a row, but let's say you play 30 match in a day, leave 5 of them, you still get the 1h penalty if the quit were spread out. Then you do a few matches the next day, quit once and get the 6h. If people think the game isn't against killers this definitely show it is.
"sweaty matches" you do realize this is a PvP game right? And yeah, you do ragequit way too mutch so the penalty rightfully increases.
And no, if the killer ragequits then im robbed of some Points. Not to mention challenges, "open the exit gate" and then im getting it and the killer just ragequits. They can rightfully eat a penalty for that. -
@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3804373#Comment_3804373
A year ago was Xenomorph and original Ultimate Weapon, and original Made For This and Buckle Up + For The People.
Game is better now than it was then.
lmao imagine that XD after every missed skill check.
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Meanwhile most of my gen grabs get declined because on their end they alredy let go.
Rage quitting has 0 excuse other than that person should play something else. This goes for both sides. -
@Backmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800791#Comment_3800791
If killer is dc-ed that means this is survivors fault (cause they do something to make killer dc) so wasting offerings is just karma. Thats a reason why dc penalty only for killers should be gone.
As long as there are no Killer bots, no. DC penaltys should stay for killers at all costs. There is nothing worse than being on the exit gate because you had a good match and the killer ragequits because of a diaper tantrum. So all your efforts were null and your time got stolen.
Survivors do ragequit far more often, yes. But as i said the bots at least replace those that wouldve been not mutch of help anyway. -
@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800741#Comment_3800741
Why only for killers? Right now giving up on hook is far more detrimental to the health of the game, I'd rather co-survivors DC'd and left me with a bot, it's a huge issue right now.
THIS! easyest solution would be to just remove dc penalty because appearantly people that dont want to play the game dont understand that they can just.. play something else. So at least these rage quitters wouldnt make the game dull for anyone else involved by leaving a bot behind. Ofc there would be still some bad apples that do it on purpose because if they dont enjoy the game anyone else shall neither.
But that would also mean encouraging this mindset of just giving up which i really dont like. I wish there was a way to seperate intentional hookiciding and just genuinely trying to 4%. So that the hookiciders either have their accs perma banned or at least have some sort of karma system where they go against each other. -
Instead of promote rage quitting it should honestly be punished even harder.
So often im getting annoyed at people that just give up just because they fear a penalty. So either really since we have bots, the penalty should be removed completely so people at least leave bots that actually play, OR really have some sort of karma system where people that try to 4% very often very early into the game they should just play together. And people that actually want to play the game can enjoy it for what it is. -
@A_T_E said:
I have killers and victims both, that I do not desire to play except perhaps out of a need for some kind of ritual (and I have no rerolls left).
Because of this, I'd love for all items to be shared across victims, and all offerings to be shared across killers. I see no reason why it isn't already a thing, only argument previously mentioned being BP offerings meaning players get more BP, but so what? Even the most casual player with a single hour of gameplay per day or so, will get showered in BP at a reasonable pace, so some BP offerings won't really make a huge difference as to why the rest shouldn't be shared, let alone the fact that more BP doesn't mean anything to the balance of the game in gameplay.
Exactly.. And alternatively if it would be really that big of a concern, then they could just exclude BP offerings from that rule.
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@MrMori said:
DBD mobile has a shared inventory. We could for sure have shared items and addons for survivors, and offerings for killers and survivors.
Although nobody would run out of anniversary cakes ever again so players would on average get far more bloodpoints, and I think BHVR don't want that. Only reason I can see not to do it.
Who REALLY benefits from more Bloodpoints though? New players i would say, who are often scared off by the hefty grind in this game. Veteran players alredy are sitting at over the cap and spending them whenever a new character releases. Well majority of the veteran players at least. Im not saying you are wrong btw, i can also imagine that is a reason why we dont have it. I just think it would not be all too horrible.
@Eleghost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3806035#Comment_3806035
I mean you only really need 1 survivor you main to invest points into and others either p1 or p3 depending if you want perks for all or just for your one survivor. It would only really start to help for challenges or if you wanted to play a different survivor who has nothing. Killers offering sharing would be pretty strong though.
Killer offerings are not that strong i think. The BP ones are out of question that has nothing to do with how a match goes.
Then we have like the moris which are more of a cosmetic at this point (which is good).. We have hatch offerings but survivors got those aswell.. Yeah, certain map offerings maybe i would send all my gideon meatplant offerings to doctor and new midwich to someone like ghostface. But survivors could do the same with the Springwood map.
We have hook offerings but they are really unneccessary as most survivors dont bring them either.
Black ward exists. But as does White ward. I think regarding to offerings its pretty balanced actually, after all its mostly the same for both sides. -
@SoGo said:
The ritual must be complete. We need more traps to finish it.
^ this!
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3805728#Comment_3805728
You're entitled to your opinion, of course, no killer is for everyone.
Oh i like current freddy despite him being rather weak. But its more down to generator speeds compared to his cooldowns and his add ons being lackluster.
But i wouldve probably never mained him if he was in his original state. -
@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3805700#Comment_3805700
But the lullaby isn't directional, and back then it used to play for awake survivors, not those who are asleep.
This is original description from his very first power, the one most Freddy mains want to return:
- -Survivors who are awake do not see The Nightmare.
- -Once targeted by The Nightmare's Power, Survivors enter the Dream Transition for 7 seconds.
- -During the Dream Transition they can see The Nightmare intermittently.
- -When the Dream Transition has elapsed, the Survivor is pulled into the Dream World.
Once in the Dream World:
- -Survivors' Auras are revealed to The Nightmare whenever they are outside of his Terror Radius.
- -Survivors suffer an Action speed penalty of -50 %.
- -To exit the Dream World, Survivors can find other non-sleeping Survivors to perform a Wake-up action.
- -Failed Skill Checks can wake up the Survivor.
- -Getting hooked wakes up the Survivor.
And this, if I may share it, is my proposal for him:
-Survivors who are awake do not see The Nightmare.
-Once targeted by The Nightmare’s power, survivors enter the Dream Transition for 7 seconds.
-During the Dream Transition Survivors can see The Nightmare intermittently and they suffer from the Incapacitated status effect.
-When the Dream Transition Lapse, the Survivor is pulled into the Dream World.
Once in the Dream World:
-Survivor’s auras are revealed to The Nightmare when they are outside of his terror radius.
-Survivors suffer an action speed penalty of 40%.
-To exit the Dream World, Survivors can find non-sleeping Survivors to perform a wake up action.
-Failed Skill Checks can also wake up.
-Hooked Survivors wake up.
Special Ability: Dream Projection
-Teleport to a Generator in view. Releasing the button early will cancel the action.
-Survivors cannot interact with the targeted Generator.
“You have nothing to worry about. This won’t hurt one… little… bit.”-Freddy Krueger
If the 50% penalty is too much then I say we nerf it but keep his mobility. The Incapacitated status effect solves the problem of being unable to interrupt survivors and then he should be golden!
wow that sounds like a really boring killer concept, im glad they changed it.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3805697#Comment_3805697
7 seconds of Dream Transition in exchange for an easier approach, an easier first hit, 50% action speed penalty and unlimited aura reading once outside his TR isn't a nerf. It is a buff, honestly.
Though, to be fair, almost anything would be a buff to current Freddy.
He has a lullaby which makes his stealth aspect null and void anyway. So i dont count that. And the 50% speed penalty was global during the whole trial? I guess yeah that would be a buff but this will likely never happen. Just look at the recent changes, its clear which side is favored.
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@LadyOwO said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3805687#Comment_3805687
And every time someone brings an offering for midwitch I really want to claw my eyes out because the map update only made it worse imo.
Oh stealth killers love that one lol. Anyone else doesnt really profit off of the map. But the map offerings should be really reversed in their effects, another topic though.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3805629#Comment_3805629
Take it from the voice of the Nightmare: it wasn't bad. The only problem was being unable to interrupt survivors during the Dream Transition, but that could easily be fixed by giving him the Incapacitated status effect.
By how fast gens get done it would nerf him into oblivion if he couldnt hit without them being in the dream world.
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@LadyOwO said:
I'm never using the stack of Gideon meat plant offerings I have. Unless your playing killer then using that offering should be considered throwing.
And im avoiding hawkins offerings at all cost XD
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Least thing i would want is to have to put people into some state before i can even hit them, it sounds horrible.
Least thing they could do is at least fix his snares.. They are bugged and inconsistend as hell. I was always a dream pallet freddy and stopped playing him all together when survivors became aware about predropping pallets. -
No we cant. Basekit UB was rejected back in 2022 for a bunch of obvious reasons which have all been alredy stated here.
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I like the karma type system. Let quitters play with each other and have normal players enjoy the game how its supposed to be
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@Ohyakno said:
This is just basekit unbreakable and yet another thing killers have to worry about
^ this
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@GladSkull said:
All of that being said though. Tunnelers are trash killers. Unless someone is exceedingly toxic I don't tunnel. So neither should they.
and this is the reason why i dont feel bad tunneling if i see neccessary doing it or just feel like doing it. Instantly going for insults and being entitled thinking you can dictate how strangers have to play.
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Oh boy.
So people can abuse it to gain an advantage like they do always when we get mechanics against "bad playstyles"?
How about we remove generators being progressed over 80 seconds at all but also make survivors perma exposed when they dont manage to complete a gen for 3 minutes. This is the equivalent suggsetion to yours just flipped. Advocating for a lose lose situation for one side. -
@Musxussu575 said:
"Don't like doing it but will do it if necessary" is some post-WW2 Nuremberg Trial excuse rofl.
you did not just compare tunneling in this game with ww2????!
And you want to talk about respect.. wow. -
My golden rule is to mind my own business. I play how i want and dont often want to blame others for how they play. Whether i tunnel or not depends on tome challenges. If i need a 4k i will definitly tunnel and slugg aswell. If its something like kick generators 1102 times in a trial then im probably not sweating at all.
Even though i dont hold back or handicap myself for other ever, so if opportunity is there i will tunnel occasionaly even if i dont neccessarily need to.
Why the opportunism? well, i made the mistake assuming treating this game as a game and having respect towards others for their preferred playstyles is common sense but i underestimated this community where you get death threats and all sorts of nasty comments for what you did in a PVP video game.
So i dont feel like being the nice one at all, i often dont put mutch thought into who got hooked how often. -
@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782160#Comment_3782160
I think the the biggest advantage of SWF isn't the comms, which in most groups never use it to its fullest potential.
It's the midigating of the rng aspect of solo queue. You know if your mates are doing challenges. You know that they'll likely not leave you behind, or get to second stage needlessly, or sandbag recklessly, things like that.
Much of what makes solo queue so rough is gone when you can know something of your mates, their strengths and weaknesses and tendencies. All of this I feel matters more than calling out killer locations and what perks they're running.
that also makes alot of sense, yes. Maybe this combined with the fact that call outs are simply easyer through voice coomms, makes the whole picture why SWF is so much stronger than soloQ, as these things are often more layered.
I agree -
"
I shouldn't have to become the best at the game or play at a competitive level to just have fun, to just play the game I paid for.
"
^ The killers that tunnel you have the exact issiue. Make no mistake, they dont enjoy doing it either. But as a killer you are punished for spreading hooks and hooking everyone evenly because you dont get enough time to do so, generators are done way too fast. Ofc this is because the developers dont give the survivors any other objective and also they treat sacrifices more worthy over hook states.
So a killer doesnt benefit from 4 hooks the same when its everyone on their first hook, as they benefit when 3 hooks of that are on the same person.
And i know it sux, ive been tunneled too. And i have tunneled people aswell and got clout for it, enough so to not care too mutch about it (very nasty comments). Unfortunately the developers of this game have created it in such a way, hopefully it gets better for you. -
Knowing BHVR it will probably come with something horrible like the animations take somehow longer to get done. So hopefully they stay how they are.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782020#Comment_3782020
The only one who doesn't want a solution is you. You claim you don't want a guaranteed 4k, but at the same time you say killers need an anti-stall mechanic basekit and survivors should get nothing because killer constantly gets shafted. In other words, you want a guaranteed 4k. You talk about double standards, but isn't that exactly what you're asking for?
Hook grabs being removed was an insignificant change. You can still interrupt an unhook, and you can still get a trade. The only thing that's changed is now there's no silly mindgame being played out at the hook that's going to result in the hooked survivor's death.
While it's certainly not always about getting something in return, when it comes to something significant like an anti-stall mechanic there needs to be a bit of an exchange. You may have liked hook grabs, but that doesn't mean they were healthy for the game.
hook grabs removed was not "insignificant" hag lost a whole playstyle because of that.
And no, AGAIN i have to repeat myself. I dont like that whenever survivors get something, its fine if killers have nothing in return. Im not argueing wether or not some mechanics are fine or not, im saying hook grabs and such have no compensation brought with their removal.
But when something as simple as an anti stalling mechanic is requested, however that may look, we IMMEDIATLY go wild and say survivors need compensation.. That is bias. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782182#Comment_3782182
If you don't want to respond that's totally fair, sincerely, but just for the sake of clarification: Hexes can spawn on your side of the map, as well as spawning towards the middle. It's absolutely possible for hexes to not spawn in front of survivors.
you are just saying this to dismiss legit concerns against your suggestion 😘
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782177#Comment_3782177
You keep mentioning that you have two more chances for them to spawn right in front of survivors, and have never acknowledged that there's also more chances for them to spawn away from survivors. It's starting to make you look extremely biased.
Also, I am absolutely talking about totem spots and I was very clear about why: Some combinations of perks spawn more hexes than there are dull totems, and you don't even need to use all your perk slots to do it. It is totem spawns, not perk slots.
I'm not going to go through every single one of those perks and explain why they're not as bad as you're making them out to be, but I do want to highlight two that you're extremely wrong about: Plaything and NOED.
How is more totems making them easier to spot when you can already see them through walls? The "whole thing" with Plaything is pushing survivors into cleansing totems or being easier to sneak up on, that's the benefit. They're not hidden like other hexes are.
The only other perk I want to mention you being wrong about here is Retribution. I bring that up in the context of it being a counter perk. If you're not familiar, Retribution inflicts Oblivious on someone interacting with any totem for any reason, so if combined with something like Undying or just general info, you can sneak up on someone doing a totem easier. That's also why I mentioned Thrill, it's relevant because it's a counter perk, not because it gets directly stronger.
The rest of them are absolutely you nitpicking to just dismiss everything out of hand, to be clear, but there's a lot of subjectivity that goes into the ones I didn't mention. More totems is obviously an improvement to build flexibility here, even if you personally don't like running the perks involved, and it's also more opportunity to run currently niche perks IF survivors interact with totems a lot more because of the change.
yeah no.. i cant be bothered no more. Im not nitpicking im saying how it is, ask yourself why hex are so rarely used and you have your answer. Because the hex perks are too weak for being finite. And "away" from survivors?? they start spread across the map, very rarely all 4 survivors are on the same spot..
Im done explaining it, i have made enough effort in actually good spirit trying to explain to you why i think your suggsetion doesnt bear anything for killers. And when you are just going to argue that im dismissing just for dismissing sake, then i will actually do that now. Im unsubscribing from this conversation and leave you to your horrible idea. And hope the devs dont pick it up. -
@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782152#Comment_3782152
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782167#Comment_3782167
First thing, thanks for responding. I was starting to worry that this discussion was just going to go unnoticed by everyone.
Second thing, thanks for letting me know that one part was too much.
you are welcome
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782161#Comment_3782161
Alright, let me give you some hard examples. For the sake of this discussion, we're going to assume that the current five totems that spawn is being increased to seven, for an increase of two.
So. Right now, let's look at a couple hex perks. Let's say you want to burn three perk slots; Plaything, Haunted Grounds, Devour Hope. Well, assuming you hook each survivor once, that's seven hex totems trying to spawn. Four from Plaything, two from Haunted Grounds, one from Devour Hope. This combination doesn't work with the current number of totems… but it would work with seven dull totems in the trial.
Let's take another example. Plaything, Devour Hope, and No One Escapes Death. That's a potential six hexes trying to spawn. Not a good synergy now, but with seven totems, you've even got one left over in case some enterprising survivor decides to cleanse a dull raw.
Pretty much any synergy that follows these lines is going to become actually possible with more totems, and it also opens up the design space for future hexes that spawn multiple totems, either at base like Haunted or over time like Plaything.
But let's say you aren't interested in synergies, you want a specific single perk to get stronger on its own with this change. Alright, let's look at two examples there.
Undying. On its own, Undying shows you the aura of survivors near dull totems. While that range is still going to be a little mediocre, with six totems to pull from instead of four you've got a more even coverage of the map.
Face the Darkness. This perk spawns on a random totem for as long as you leave one specific survivor injured. With seven totems, it becomes that little bit harder to find when it spawns, especially when it's blinking on and off so someone might miss it when it's active.
These are the direct examples. As I laid out before, counterpick perks that weaken survivors interacting with totems like Thrill or Retribution also get stronger. Dominance, assuming it doesn't get overhauled between PTB and Live, also adds more to the game overall with more totems in contention. And, finally, it mustn't be overlooked, more survivors cleansing totems is more time to generate pressure just on its own.
And then half of the perks are gone immediatly because you have 2 more chances for them to spawn right in survivors radius at the start of the trial. Not to mention how weak the perks you are using are for being hexes.
Haunted ground litteraly is rng, you dont even get to be close to any healthy survivor when they cleanse it and more often than not the one you are chasing is injured in that moment anyway. Very rarely haunted ground actually gave me benefit and then it was gone forever.
Devour hope; by the time the strongest effect is in play, you have alredy basicly won anyway. And it only lasts as long as it is up.
Plaything is litteraly countered easyer when there is more totem spots lol. I dont even think i need to explain why. the whole thing for plaything is sometimes the totems connected to you are hard to spot.
Same goes for NOED, more spots, easyer detection. All though i personally dont think NOED deserves anything good, i think its cheap last safety resort often used by people that struggle throughout the match to get some last cheap hooks.
You talk about synergy as if it is connected to totems rather than perk slots XD doesnt matter if you have 7 or 12 totems, killer only has 4 perk slots and majority of those dont even return when they are cleansed the first time. Which is the reason why i say its a buff to survivors, even more ways to get rid of a killers hex perk..
Idk why anyone would run undying on its own, there is better aura reading. But undying would be the ONLY perk that benefits from more totems, which is nullified by the fact that the perks its supposed to buff, are nerfed with your suggestion.
Honestly face the darkness doesnt change at all. It will litteraly be the same as it is now, pure rng. So no buff, compared to how mutch more accsessibly boons and totem perks become for survivors with your suggestion.
Thrill of the hunt doesnt get stronger with more totem spots, it stays the same. And retribution? really? Again there is better aura read.
Im starting to think you dont know alot about killer honestly. -
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782153#Comment_3782153
I just can’t with this conversation. I just sincerely hope BHVR never takes this thread seriously.
agreed…
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"The AFC mechanic stays active during the endgame."
horrible, horrible.. really horrible. If you wouldve left that one away this would have been a completely fine suggestion but this is just over the top. Why even have hooks active at endgame then? could aswell just make them be broken as soon as the gates are opened, would be the same outcome. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782150#Comment_3782150
Sure, but they still have to interact with them. The time they spend on side objectives isn't just how long it takes the find them, it's also actually doing the action they're looking for - blessing or cleansing.
If the totem is more out in the open and close to generators, good. That means it's easier to snuff IF the survivors want to boon it instead of cleansing it.
As for it outweighing the benefits killers get, I firmly disagree. Frankly, when I wrote this post, I was worried it'd benefit the killer too much compared to the survivors; the ability to freely mix Plaything and Haunted Grounds together, potentially with a third anchor hex depending on how much extras we add here, would be very strong. This plus what I laid out above, where killers get a whole suite of counterpicks that suddenly get much more reliable… yeah, it looks good for killers here.
you keep saying killers can freely mix hex perks with more totem spots. They can alredy do that but with more spots is even more likely survivors will see these spots. Its not like killers gain an extra perk slot just because there is more spots for the hexes.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782146#Comment_3782146
You wouldn't need these perks, but you'd get more use out of them, that's an improvement.
If boons explode in popularity, great, you've got options. You can either just snuff them as you see them to drag one survivor off to relight it, or you can bring Shattered Hope to destroy those spots outright. You could also run something like Undying to see when people are starting to boon, and/or something like Thrill to slow them down. Either paired with Retribution means the survivors won't hear you approaching them if you decide to interrupt, too.
If Inner Strength/Hardened/Overzealous explode in popularity, same deal. You can just deal with them the way you would now, and make use of the time being added to the trial, or you could bring a number of counterpick perks to hamper the survivors trying to set up their own perks.
More perks being reliably useful is a good thing for the killer no matter how you slice it, as long as they aren't required. Which, of course, they wouldn't be.
shattered hope will totally be required when boons and totem perks explode in usage. And i ask again, what is in it for the killer? So far i only see straight out survivor benefits in your suggestion and you make alot of stretches to reach killer benefits in your arguments. It might look like that in theory but in practice its a diffrent story because you keep forgetting about the 1v4 aspect. More totems is more possibillitys for 4 people to use the spots and even more task for the 1 person on the other end to control not only gens but also totems now…
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782148#Comment_3782148
If you think that communication is the strong thing for Survivors, you are just so wrong. Put the same Survivors who play in an SWF together without Voice Comms and you will roughly have the same results.
How so?
Because swf is strongest when they KNOW when the killer is approaching and they just get away early enough so the killer cant catch up. That only works so perfect with voice comms. -
@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782137#Comment_3782137
The stalling scenario is literally the '2k, +1 gen' scenario where the two survs left hide because they cant realistically repair the remaining gens without dying so they hide to wait for hatch.
Is there another stalling scenario that you are arguing for?
no. But if they hide for hatch and it takes 20 to 30 minutes for the killer to get both or if they hide for hatch and it doesnt take as long for the killer to get both…
Does it really matter? Is it about ending games faster or wasting as mutch time for everyone as possible? There is no change in sucsess for either side if there was an anti-stalling mechanic. It just makes infiriuateing situations take less time. -
It doesnt even matter what nerfs you oppose on swf (which you shouldnt do. SWF shouldnt exist but now that its here, people shouldnt be punished just because they play with friends in a group.)
But the fact they can communicate is the strong thing. And you wont ever be able to nerf that. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782139#Comment_3782139
I mean, they'd heal each other because it'd be quicker and in a lot of cases more convenient?
While it is more efficient overall, Inner Strength takes longer in strict time than getting healed by someone else. Twelve seconds cleansing a totem + eight seconds sitting in a longer = twenty seconds before you've even factored in any travel time at any stage here. Inner Strength is a great perk, but even with more totems it's not a replacement for altruistic healing.
More spots for boons isn't necessarily a big deal, either. Not every dull totem that spawns is automatically a good spot for a boon, after all, so you're fairly likely to have pretty much the same amount of viable spots as usual… and boons are infinite, so it's not like it matters how many you've got unless it's zero.
This is all before factoring in that any of these perk types getting popular on the survivor side means you're far more likely to get to use the counter perks for them. Shattered Hope, Thrill of the Hunt, Dominance, Undying, even Retribution works on boon users. The game being slowed down by survivors doing side objectives, and you have the ability to affect those side objectives. As a killer player, that sounds like a great outcome to me.
mhm yeah counter perks that we need to combat boons now and dont get the spot for gen slowdown. It doesnt matter how you turn it, it keeps being a favor to the survivors. and hurting killers disproportianally.
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I also noticed an increase in hatch spawning really close to survivors, in either my killer games or i saw it myself 3 times in this week alone hatch spawned really close to me when i was the last survivor left.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782122#Comment_3782122
Like I laid out, it's not actually neutral to hexes, the part that's neutral is just spawn logic. It's beneficial to hexes for the other reasons, when you factor in the non-standard ones like Undying.
To the point about killer related objects: I'm pretty sure those don't share spawn points with totems, just chests. Right? I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure that's how it works.
Finally, I'm not saying it wastes survivor time to go for boons. I'm not talking about wasting time at all, and I'm not talking about boons, either. Time that survivors spend interacting with dull totems for the OTHER totem perks is time that survivors are not spending on generators. They aren't wasting that time because it still does something for them, but it does make the trial last a little longer, and time is on the killer's side. That's what I mean when I say it slows the game down in a healthy way; survivors aren't just throwing, but the killer still gets more time to generate pressure.
I would be delighted if survivors started spending time looking for and cleansing totems to activate, say, Inner Strength or Hardened. Even Overzealous, frankly. I'd be even happier if they started running Small Game, Detective's Hunch, or Counterforce to find those totems instead of spending time searching. All of those are slots that could be spent on meta perks that'd be much harder to counter and that wouldn't slow the game down at all.
To be clear, I don't necessarily think that just increasing totem count would cause a giant meta shift, but I do (perhaps aspirationally) think more survivors would run stuff like Inner Strength if they weren't competing with their teammates for totems quite as hard. Even more than that, I definitely think at least some killers would run hexes more if they had more freedom to combine the perks that spawn multiple lit totems with one another. It wouldn't be the only thing hexes need but it would help.
And i think its a very VERY bad idea to have more places for boons and more oppurtunity for other perks like inner strenght. I think you dont realize how much stronger inner strength could become if there was just more totems. Why would survivors heal each other at all then? anyone can just do a totem while the killer is occupied and next time activate inner strength in some random locker, while the others can do gens.
It simply doesnt work, 1 player barely benefits while 4 players strongly benefit from your suggestion. -
@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782126#Comment_3782126
Look, i am not going to start a debate whether camping and hooks are strong or weak.
I am just pointing out that the antifacecamp, that you are constantly using to try to get one on one with your idea of Crows and aura reading, is a laughably weak mechanic that is circunvented extremely easy and barely changed the game.
Remember always If you are going to defend the 'The killer has already won if it got 2k before all gens are done so it deserves the 4k everytime' stance, that BHVR expects a Kill Rate of 60% on average. Meaning that for that idea to be truth they will need to nerf every single killer until getting a 2k will only happen 60% of matches.
If you want to win an argument you would do well to not put words in peoples mouths… I did not say:
"The killer has already won if it got 2k before all gens are done so it deserves the 4k everytime"
I say, in a stalling scneario, the killer always wins. Your argument that any aura reading or crows would change anything other than time spent is simply wrong. -
@menacing_goose said:
Genuinely wondering why a lot of you complain about meta as if most of it is caused by killer. Anti tunnel is meta because tunneling is seen so often, even after the nerf pop pain res still remains in the killer meta and people who “gen rush” are viewed as boring as if they’re doing something wrong. I could want to run meme perks but it wouldn’t matter and would be pointless because killers 9 times out of 10 will never be for it. “It’s not being toxic we want to play the game as well” don’t get me wrong I understand when you guys say that but how are you gonna go and say this but then be upset at survivors when they just run meta and play the game instead. Meme perks are pointless if no one wants to meme and bad perks just aren’t worth running at all which you know because I’ve heard it many times “pop pain res is meta because there’s no other regression worth running”. So I’m just curious as to why there are so many complaints as if killers can’t control most of the game.
Which was first? Chicken or the egg? You could also say killers tunnel because gens are too fast. As it is the most effective strat to remove a quarter of your opponents team, which gives them less time to get gens done. And it doesnt even help all the time when you tunnel, like you could end up chasing someone with a good sense for chases, because its a good looper and all that.
I know people dont like to hear it but tunneling actually still requires some skill with the hunt and measuring whether its worth it or not, unlike holding M1 on a gen while someone else gets chased.
And tunneling just increased because anti "genrush" perks got gutted. Why are they still used? Cause you still need some slowdown, now more than ever. Doesnt mean they are any good to counter the genrush. And im not even blaming survivors for doing gens, its a simple fact there is nothing else, its the devs fault that time management goes extremely in either one direction depending on how many survivors are left.
But i keep seeing people blame killers for simply trying to win, like you do right now with this post. I think it should stop, for years people are arguing over something that is entierly on the developers task. -
@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782063#Comment_3782063
Yes, most stalling end with a 4k, but what you are trying to change is a 'you get a slight chance to escape' to a 'you will always lose' scenario. I dont think killers need a basekit mechanic to eliminate any chance of escaping the survivors have.
Anti facecamping indeed affected some players, but the great majority of the playerbase wanted something that could prevent actual camping, or proxy camping and got nothing.
Let me give you an example
Imagine if BHVR decided they would release the afk crows/aura reading you ask for the Stalling situation but the mechanic would Only work if the survivors were hiding behind rocks and called it Anti-Rock mechanic. You would probably think But 'What about those survivors that are hiding behind trees, lockers or buildings that are far more that the ones that hide behind rocks?'
And when you point out the flaw of this you get RandomGuy21 telling you 'This is not the Anti-stall mechanic, It is the Anti-Rock mechanic, It was never meant to work in all situations, it is working as intended'.
This is basically what happened with the anti-face camping.
well, hooks are not meant to be a safe game all the time, that is true. Thats why they did anti FACEcamp instead of anti proxy camp.
Do you want the killer to just never get any sacrifices because hooks are made a non-issiue for survivors? Being on the hook getting camped with no interaction was an issiue, which is now solved. As soon as you are off the hook and can run again, its your task to reach safety. Thats on you. Also on the unhooker to try to body block if the killer wants you that badly. And the others are supposed to rush gens which you can also do when the killer proxy camps.
Tools are there enough, people just dont use them and demand even more handholding.
And no you dont get a "slight chance of escape" when the killer sluggs for the 4k. You'd think you want games to be over faster rather than slower in those scenarios. Same goes for survivors refusing to touch gens if there is only 2 left. The killer WILL get them. Question is will it be sooner or later?
Ant thats where we need a mechanic, killer has alredy won, it just needs to be over faster. Especcialy to discourage hiding for 20 minutes straight and not touching gens.