How to limit swf?
As the latest statistic shows, swf players do have a huge advantage over solo q players. These advantages come from matching builds and roles, voicecall, callouts and coordination.
Aside from comp players there is little that the average killer can do to stop these teams effectivly and the matches become stressfull and annoying very quick.
So when looking at the numbers the game needs a mechanic to even out the field.
The game knows when you play with others so it could apply more generator time per swf player. Another possibility would be to limit how many times certain perks can be used among the swf players (this forces the survivor to use other builds and avoids 4x adren etc).
Limiting the amount of items/add ons could also be a possibility as it really is game breaking to have multiple green toolboxes with brand new parts in a swf squad.
This would not only make the game more fair for everyone but also (and this is my favourite part about this idea) completly remove bully squads from the game.
It simply wouldn't be possible anymore to orchestrate with background player, ds, unbreakable and head on + 4 flash lights and map offering to purposly be toxic towards killers.
One last approach could be to simply tell the killers if he goes up against swf so he can mentally switch into comp mode or just dodge the lobby.
My final thoughts are that it shouldn't be possible to bring map offerings if you play with more then 1 friend. Reducing toxicity and making the game fair again is what it needs in my opinion as it feels quite inbalanced lately.
Comments
What many people think will be discussed when facing a SWF:
what most swfs in discord are actually talking about:
Top secret strategy in discord discussions:
..or more likely:
the reality in many cases is that people who have played solos a long time make in game friends they then play causally and regularly with and sometimes become good friends with and want to continue playing - not to destroy killers with evil plans, but to avoid the pain of solo and laugh and joke with regardless of outcome.
I dream of the day I might someday reach the heady heights of mediocrity lol
I think that’s a fair idea and worth testing in any case!
Make it so you cant repeat items/perks (only 1x deadhard, 1x toolbox per team etc) would be really good and limit sweat meta swfs and bully squads.
Might be the best thing they could implement.
Survivors just need to have MMR adjustments numbers (i.e. +5 MMR points in a 2-SWF, or +50 MMR points in a 4-SWF) for SWFs. And these adjustment numbers are based on how much their win rate changes when they are in a SWF.
This would mean that no one is “punished for playing with friends”. But it does mean that if someone’s win rate is much higher in a SWF, that the game recognizes that, and places them in more difficult matches when they are in a SWF.
It also means that if someone truly is “just playing with friends”, and doesn’t have a higher win rate in a SWF, then this mechanic won’t do anything to them.
I mean people lobby dodge a lot already simply due to prestiges and 'guessing' it's a SWF, if you outright told killers when they're about to face a SWF, most killers would dodge.
Do we know whats considered "High mmr" ? I've always wondered how this bracket is described (aside from the blant numbers they mentioned somewhen). I don't know if I am in high mmr but I would say it feels like I am. However when looking at the high mmr bracket there is the almost gap I was talking about.
As mentioned earlier I don't want to stomp survivors. I don't know how to reach common ground with that many aspects and variables and maybe its simply not possible to do so.
But is it fair to just say "there is this group of squad players and we will just accept as a fact that they bully killers on purpose or win a lot more then intended by the basegame mechanics"? I don't know how big the group of "high mmr" is after all but shouldn't a game aim for equal conditions among all players?
Its actually more easy then you think. There are some elements that make it obvious like matching names, matching outfits or players commenting on each others profile. The more subtile hints have to be observed in game. You will notice pretty quick if survivors are coordinated, run clock system or pre run/hide even though they shouldn't have information of your whereabout.A pretty good hint is also when survivors who haven't been in a chase with you yet are counterplaying your perks. Even though its not 100 % proof its pretty consistent.
The second part of your argument is more speculating. IF you find surviors or IF you win chases fast. Loosing a gen per chase is pretty common these days and depending on map and killer/build you are not in the position to match that.
Thats okay though as different maps are better or worse for different killers.
But that is if you get a neutral map which is more rare lately as most of the survivors I face bring map offerings for survivor sided maps.
I have tried some SWF because my acquaintance is new to the game in comparison to me, and we haven't grown comfortable enough to talk about life yet, so all we talk about are informations about who the killer is, what kinda perks theya having and therefore what to watch out for, whether there's time to finish that generator before the killer hooks / deals with the chase, and so on.
The informations regarding precise areas and pallet placements aren't being discussed at all. In fact, everything is put into a really vague way, to the point that one needs time to process those informations and that means that before the time we understand each other, the killer is already on a completely different page - That information is no longer accurate or does no longer hold as much value as before I finish spilling it out.
That said, knowing which perks to watch out for can easily prolong a chase by more than twenty seconds in some cases, or it doesn't help at all in some.. But that's something one gains access to by playing with voice communications, and that kind of .. Yeah, does work around some perks and gameplay of some killers that wouldn't have been a thing without them.
If there was ever planned some introduction of punishments due to being in SWF, they would've been here for years.. But because nothing's changed over the time, nothing will change even now.
Imagine people who are good at a game still find issues and try to talk about them. Too much overhead for you I guess.
Agreed
It is actually reasonable. People just have to get off of the idead that every change or issue proposed is a personal attack to them or their playstyle.
"Punishing for playing with friends" is nothing more then a buzzword. A lot of games apply limits to keep balance in check. BHVR always struggled with that.
So maybe try to think about the subject and try to understand why it is an issue or why it is not.
Around the top 4% of players is loosely considered that top MMR area. Something like that. For the millions of worldwide DBD players that's a really small portion overall. If they put out a more exact number I don't recall, and it's all based an invisible number anyway.
Balancing an asymmetrical game already is tough to do. From what I can tell over the years, they tend to balance the game primarily for the middling groups of players, say the central 70% of MMR roughly. To affect the most amount of regular players.
Next they look at the new player experience, say the bottom 5% or so. Last would be that high MMR area, and I don't think they massively sift through those numbers for very long. Whether this approach is correct is another thread entirely.
your right, its higher than 10% more, 0.43 * (1 + 10%) = 0.474 or 47.4%
In older stats they used top 5% MMR (https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/350586/stats-kill-rate-by-killer-and-mmr-september-2022#latest), I don't know if high MMR also means top 5% though.
But even if the high MMR bracket was bigger than that, the difference in survival rate is only big for 4man SWFs. The stats for party size are admittedly old, but back than 4mans were the smallest group, so there should not be that many high MMR 4man groups.
Some very unfun strategies could be adressed, I wouldn't mind something like an item limit to two perk kind because that will have little impact in normal matches but yeah overall I think it is fair that the top squads survive most of the time because it's the same for Killers. For example, there is atleast one 1000+ win streak on Nurse, but meeting such a good nurse is rare and her kill rate is on the lower end, so I don't think Nurse need to be nerfed further because those outliners exit.
You are probably going to say that you match with unbeatable squads more often, but again, looking at the stats that is unlikely. And from my experience, some Killers blame SWF instead of other reasons like their own skill, bad rng and unfair matchmaking even though those aspects impacted the match more than playing with friends did.
Equal conditions for all would be nice, but I don't think that is possible in dbd for multiple reasons.
You obviously couldn’t stop it on the phones. I think 99% of survivors would willingly stop using Discord because Proximity chat would literally be 1,000 times more fun. They could add something to the game to block discord from popping up and i don’t think it could be called malware at all since you could just use discord without the game being open.
It depends a lot, am I playing a strong killer, can I put on a strong build, do I care, did I even watch the lobby screen or was I tabbed out watching something. Its not as cut and dry but at worst the "lobby dodging simulator" would pair up swfs against stronger killers who wouldn't feel the need to dodge. Aka grouped survivors get stronger killers and builds with proper mindsets going into the match. Which I see absolutely no problem with.
For most killers it wont matter if they're queued as Nurse with full aura-reading or a meme-build Trapper, they'll dodge if they see a 3/4 man SWF. Why make it harder on yourself when you're usually guaranteed a more chill match if you just dodge till you find solos?
Yes, some people will choose to challenge themselves by going against the SWF, or they'll be AFK/tabbed out and not notice, but I'd wager money that most killers who DO notice, will dodge.
TCM had to REMOVE this feature because people would just constantly dodge.
Xbox and PS have built in party chat. You'd only be blocking it for PC players not on Steam, since steam also supports voice chat.
Well yeah its trapper the arguably 2nd worst killer in the game why would you want to subject yourself to a swf while using a meme build to double down on getting stomped. That sounds like a fun way to end a night and get someone to stop playing dbd if you queued into that without knowing. Which is exactly the point not my fault if most dbd players are scared of a challenge this feature would work for me so I want it so I don't have to double down on a bad matchup by having the wrong build / mindset going into it.
How would you deal with the consoles? Their comms are built in, and entirely separate from what game is even being played?
and Nintendo switch doesn’t even have chat or comms of any variety without going through some extraneous and expensive steps - which both sides must have and only makes sense when you can already chat with the other person already.
You should make soloq limitless
But why does the killer get to see exactly what they're up against and dodge or not, but survivors don't? Surely it would only be fair for a survivor to see if they're against a Nurse with full aura-reading or a meme Trapper so they can have the right build/mindset going into it.
You are debating "fair" in an asymmetrical game, especially one with strong counter perks to every killer in the game as survivor vs just general strong perks as killer.
Trapper : Use a map
Wraith : Use sprint burst
Doctor : Use calm spirit
Spirit : Use iron will, lightfooted, and lightweight
its not even a comparison to say that you are saying in exchange for mid tier information that can be assumed 80% of the time survivors should get a god tier game defining amount of information
I mean it's the same when it comes to survivor items. We have a single perk that completely shuts down flashlights and medkits are heavily countered with Franklin's or even just certain anti-heal perks.
Heck you can lobby-shop till you find a team bringing 4 medkits as Plague.
you can’t deal with built in chats on consoles. BHVR has stated before they can’t take changes to the game that would disrupt core functions of consoles. They need approval to get patches through now. Neither Sony, Microsoft, nor Nintendo would allow DBD to deactivate voice chat that comes through console.
Oh I know, I was making a point about players only thinking in terms of just Discord etc. and not considering their proposals across all platforms.
Killer counter powers and common perks to high degrees while survivor counter perks only affect some aspects while survivor counters can counter easily half of a killers kit (aka their entire power forcing them to be an m1 killer) the false equivalency of countering healing items is a joke compared to that especially with the usual requirement of activation for the killer and lack of activation for survivor
Doctor : Bring calm spirit active at the start of the game completely counters his info and can make it difficult to gauge distance in chase and require splitting attention to even tell if a shock hit a survivor
Lightborn : Counters flashlights and flashbangs so survivors still have gens, healing, sabotage, pallet saves, body blocking, looping to not go down in the first place ect.
You can't even start to compare the two and its again a joke to think they are even close in power level
Judging by your comments in this thread, there's a zero percent chance you've ever gone against a group of survivors using the clock system for callouts. 99% of survivor players aren't at that level. It takes way too much work and practice to be able use it effectively and you're not getting matched against those players.
If you were actually good at the game, you wouldn't care if people played with their friends in an online game. This has to be the only community I've seen where the concept of someone having a friend or two they play with is somehow a problem.
I don't think people realize the huge difference a 5% can make. In most other games I play, a 5% difference is the difference between trash and midtier characters, and between mid and godtier. Heck, people in this very forum had a mental breakdown over a 3% speed increase.
We're acting in this thread like the difference between 39% and 48% escape rate doesn't deserve getting addressed. Like, yeah, it might be a difficult problem to tackle, and obviously the people casually enjoying the perks of playing 4-man will get annoyed if we tried, but it is very much a huge balancing issue whether you like it or not.
People always say "But why would you punish people for playing with friends!!", but as it stands, the game punishes people for playing by themselves. It's a constant stream of balancing patches directed entirely either to high rank players or premades, while soloq gets worse and worse each patch. And yet, soloq players cannot tell others "I'm being camped!", "The killer is at shack!" or "The killer is trying to 3-gen!", a gameplay advantage that premades of all types have (casual premades included) and that unavoidably helps them getting an edge over soloq, no matter if they're using professional map callouts or singing I Want It That Way the rest of the time.
What other games actually do that? The only example I saw was Overwatch which actually doesn't place limitations on friend groups. Your example was absurd "oh you can't run 5 tanks", yes you can if you play Open Role Queue. If you choose to sign up for the Role Queue which limits your roles. shockingly, your roles are limited. This is the same limitation provided to solo OW queue's because you all queue in the exact same way.
I think those percentages are probably exactly how they need to be. If behavior is shooting for a 40% escape rate to go along with the horror theme of the game, then that seems fine for new to average players. Many of them are probably still experiencing that aspect of the game.
A higher escape rate at high MMR makes sense to me. Most of those people are well past the horror part of the game. A 50/50 balance at that level would be where I think it should be.
This is just my opinion of course.
I dont want BHVR, of all companies, to police me playing with friends. That sounds ridicilous and highly irritating!
But i also disagree with all the people that claim SWF isnt that much more busted than SoloQ. There is a huge, undeniable gap alone due to the fact that people can call out the killers position at any time. Solos cant do that.
a 50/50 balance is impossible in a 1vs4.
Why? Their stats are not showing far from it. To be clear I know there's more to the stats than just the number. I'm not talking an exact number.
I think part of the problem is that the game isn't just a 1vs4 in my eyes. As killer, I feel like it's a 1v4. As a solo survivor, it can feel like a 1v1, v2, v3 ,or v4. This is also where I think 60/40 is fine. It's impossible to balance around random players doing random things
However, it appears 4 mans at high MMR are closer to a 50/50. May not be exact but I would say is in a good spot. This means when the survivors are playing as a team, then it is more evenly balanced. I wouldn't consider this a 1v4. More of 1 killer vs 1 team.
Compared to solo survivors, or swfs that are just playing for fun. Where it could be anything from 1v4 to a 1v1v1v1v1. Sometimes a solo group is even comparable to a good 4 man swf, if they are playing the same game.
"A higher escape rate at high MMR makes sense to me."
Both 39% and 48% are official numbers for high MMR escape rate. Solo survivor, regardless of skill level, peaks at 40%. Premades have so many advantages over solo that even exclusively comparing the highest level of play they are almost 10% more likely to escape than the most professional soloq player.
To put this into perspective, the patch that pretty much absolutely decimated soloq and threw survivor play into disarray for several months, 6.1.0, "only" raised kill rates by about a 5%.
Why nerf SWF when you can buff solos instead? For example, why can't you see self unhook progress of your teammates? Wasn't stuff like this pretty much exactly why they added the new survivor HUD that shows gen progress, teammates doing totems, etc? To let solos get info that SWF can communicate in 2 seconds?
Why can't you show your teammates which perks you have while in-game? Like making a perk you have show up on the HUD to give your teammates info they can work with.
Why not add a basic text command system like DBD mobile has where you can send messages like "Going to unhook" etc?
Yes I get that but that's still solo queue. At low or high MMR it only takes one person being random, doing tomrs, etc... to throw out the whole match. I'm not saying that 4 mans at that level aren't doing the same but the chances are probably higher that they are still working together even for the random things.
I know they have other advantages but working together is kind of the key thing I usually see. It's hard to say that's even happening in high level solo play or if people are still playing for themselves. Which is something that's on the players at that point. Not the balance.
This is all speculative on my part btw. I don't watch a lot of solo survivor play and couldn't guarantee it would be high MMR if I did watch to know if this is how it is
As a someone who plays killer 70% and survivor 30%, i would say they should never punish people to play with their friends. The thing should be buffing SoloQ info and coordination possibilities - basekit Bond, Kindred, etc - and making weaker killers stronger, while they balance maps strength.
The only thing about the SWF i wish would change could be that we would show to other players when someone is playing together or not, so those who are not in the SWF (survivor and killer) would make smarter strategies.
You're only talking about newer and bad players though. It's really easy to tell when someone is being camped. It's also not that difficult to figure out the general area the killer is in. Breaking a 3-gen should be on survivors' minds in every game. We're given all the information we need to succeed in the HUD.
The only problem with solo queue is the players you're matched with. If you're matched with 3 other competent survivors, you'll probably win or at least have an enjoyable experience. It's really only basic stuff too. Spread out, do gens, and pay attention to the HUD. That's all it takes.
Its impossible due to the pure nature of asymmetrical games. If you make both sides equally strong then kills will average between 0 to 1. Killer role HAS to be opressive in order for the game to be remotely balanced, but we dont even have only an imbalance between killer and survivor, we have an inbalance between swf and soloQ + between the killers themselves.
Then there is far too much RNG involved, if you really would want 50/50 balance maps should not hinder either side, certain perks litteraly should be banned from existing and all the killers would need to be streamlined in some shape or form. It would make for a very boring game that way.
At this point i'd say just balance the game around SWF on general and start give additional bonuses for solo survivors.
The new mechanic from 2v8 which allows survs to solo heal on the last hook state for example. Also i think survs could use a lethal pursuer effect at the start just to know which gens are being repared at start.
I’ve got no qualm with killers being able to see if they’re going against a team in the lobby - it still won’t show you if they’re a ‘SWF’ but if you don’t want to take the chance then fair enough.
However, I do think it should be counter balanced by survivors being able to see which killer they’re going against.
Also, I’ve said this for a long time but mao offerings should be reworked so it guarantees you do not go to that specific realm. I’d burn every swamp offering I have if it meant I can be guaranteed NOT to go there.
I believe from the past Stats posted by BHVR, High MMR consists of the Top 5% of players. So, top 5% of all time.
Im sorry I may not be coming across how I mean it. To me they have already pretty much done 50/50. If high level 4 mans are at a 48% escape rate then that's pretty close to a 50/50.
I'm not saying that average matches or players should be the 50/50 as you can't control what random teammates or players will do. Even without the horror aspect coming into play, 60/40 seems fine to me in this regard. Unless they force survivors to play a certain way I don't know how solo queue could ever really change without making survivor too strong.
I think the 50/50, or even the 48 it was the last we saw, is fine for high level. That's putting high MMR killers, who are probably playing higher tier characters, against high MMR survivors who are actually playing as a team.
Im also not sure where the 0-1k comes from with this.
I am begging people to understand that a 1v4 game being 50/50 means both sides having equal chance of winning and not 1 killer fighting 4 killers.
Kills will never average 0 or 1. On a 50/50 asymmetrical game, you'll get 2 kills most of the time, 3+ for a win or 1 or less for a defeat.
The only reason this game doesn't balance around 50/50 is because the devs are stubborn and believe in competitive ladder climbing for this game, which makes ties feel like wasted matches, which means they balance around 4ks or 0ks, no middle ground. (And I personally think this is THE WORST option for balance)
So would you say the current top outcome for games being a 4K is bad for the health of the game and something to look at?
So… the case how it is right now? because that is my average kills per match. 2. not more not less..