The Legion Buffs! (Reasoning and Justification) FINAL THREAD UPDATE!
Introduction
I been doing some research for a while now and I'll have to say, he's very weak. This is due to the fact that he can't secure his hooks easily which is what the game evolves around. For you to hook someone as The Legion, you'll need to hit a survivor with your power four times down or you can M1 a survivor with a 110% movement speed twice (or once if they are in the deep wound status effect). Both processes takes a long time to secure a hook because you are simply doing something that is inefficient. Yes, the killer is a "Pig" where (s)he can cause survivors to waste time by mending but that's not good enough to justify his weak ability to hook survivors.The Legion Solution!
I figured out a way to make The Legion a lethal killer while having counter play!Deep Wound Status Effect:
-If you was previously healthy and you was inflicted by the DW status effect, you'll be able to mend yourself to the injured state. However, if you was previously injured and you was inflicted by the DW status effect, you'll NOT be able to mend yourself to the injured state, only a teammate can mend you to the injured state.
-The DW timer will decrease at its normal speed when in a chase.
Balancing The Changes Above...
-The DW timer will be increased to 60 seconds. Additionally, if you was previously injured and you was inflicted by the DW status effect, you'll see the auras of all survivors in the trial and you'll see "Find Help!" At the bottom of the screen to aid newer players on what they need to do. The survivors auras and the "Find Help!" Will fade away when you are no longer DW'd.
Reasoning: (It's in the spoiler)
Problem:
Basically, the DW status effect is not much of a time waster (which is the developers intentions) because you can easily mend to the injured state. Additionally, survivors wouldn't heal to the healthy state as the DW status effect has the same effect regardless of what your health state is.
My DW changes solve the problems above by: (There's now a punishment to not healing against The Legion)
If a survivor decides not to heal and is inflicted by the DW status effect, they will be punished as they won't be able to mend themselves and will need to waste more time running to a teammate.
Basically, the DW status effect is not much of a time waster (which is the developers intentions) because you can easily mend to the injured state. Additionally, survivors wouldn't heal to the healthy state as the DW status effect has the same effect regardless of what your health state is.
My DW changes solve the problems above by: (There's now a punishment to not healing against The Legion)
If a survivor decides not to heal and is inflicted by the DW status effect, they will be punished as they won't be able to mend themselves and will need to waste more time running to a teammate.
The Legion's Power:
-Every time you use Frenzy on a survivor without the DW status effect, Frenzy will last 2.5 seconds longer than normal, your Frenzy movement speed is increased by 5%, and your Frenzy meter will be refilled. These effects are not permanent and will reset whenever Frenzy ends.
Balancing The Changes Above...
-Frenzy will now last 10 seconds and will take 30 seconds to automatically refill. Additionally, Frenzy can only be used when the power gauge is fully charged.
Reasoning: (It's in the spoiler)
Problem:
The Legion has a power that encourages tagging multiple survivors but was extremely inefficient as tagging multiple survivors is extremely difficult to perform. Additionally, (let's assume the developers don't add my DW changes above) tagging multiple survivors would waste more time than what time you have wasted by DW'ing every survivor since mending is a cake walk. Therefore, tagging a single survivor with Frenzy is the most efficient method for downing survivors which negates the point of the power: Spreading the damage.
How will my changes to The Legion's power solve the problems above: (Tagging multiple survivors will be faster and more do-able)
Since these changes will make The Legion able to tag multiple survivors more efficient and of course faster. You'll now be rewarded for going to survivor to survivor and now tagging a single survivor will now be inefficient due to how easy it is to tag every survivor. Remember, easy doesn't mean you'll always tag every survivor when you use Frenzy, it just means it's more likely of an outcome if you have proper movement and the survivors are in a bad position.
NOTE: The Frenzy charge nerf and requirement to use Frenzy is there to give survivors a chance to recover if you happen to tag everyone assuming if my DW changes was also added in to this change as well. If my DW changes wasn't not added in then we wouldn't need the Frenzy charge nerf and requirement to use Frenzy.
The Legion has a power that encourages tagging multiple survivors but was extremely inefficient as tagging multiple survivors is extremely difficult to perform. Additionally, (let's assume the developers don't add my DW changes above) tagging multiple survivors would waste more time than what time you have wasted by DW'ing every survivor since mending is a cake walk. Therefore, tagging a single survivor with Frenzy is the most efficient method for downing survivors which negates the point of the power: Spreading the damage.
How will my changes to The Legion's power solve the problems above: (Tagging multiple survivors will be faster and more do-able)
Since these changes will make The Legion able to tag multiple survivors more efficient and of course faster. You'll now be rewarded for going to survivor to survivor and now tagging a single survivor will now be inefficient due to how easy it is to tag every survivor. Remember, easy doesn't mean you'll always tag every survivor when you use Frenzy, it just means it's more likely of an outcome if you have proper movement and the survivors are in a bad position.
NOTE: The Frenzy charge nerf and requirement to use Frenzy is there to give survivors a chance to recover if you happen to tag everyone assuming if my DW changes was also added in to this change as well. If my DW changes wasn't not added in then we wouldn't need the Frenzy charge nerf and requirement to use Frenzy.
Quality Of Life Changes:
-Double stun is removed so pick one developers, attack cool down or fatigue.
REMEMBER: These numbers can be changed later on if it's OP or underpowered. So, please just ignore the numbers as they are mainly place holders and take everything you have read with a grain of salt.
@Janick, please give this another read!
Feedback and criticism is appreciated as always but please don't bash me if you don't like something. Additionally, don't LOL rate this thread without saying why you disagree because I tried really REALLY hard and I put a crap ton of thought into this so don't disappoint me!
Videos on why The Legion is a weak killer
Here's a few videos by Monto, he says everything better and goes into detail in each video. The first two videos go into how the killer is not viable by destroying The Legion as a survivor.VIDEO 1.)
https://youtu.be/9oy7ZmFrsIEVIDEO 2.)
https://youtu.be/ipiUWXPyM7oTru3ta1ent SPEAKS the TRUTH: He says Legion is good against BAD survivors.
https://youtu.be/8ReHiCNSUwQ
Comments
You know, you're not the only one who can throw some fancy, carefully chosed words, demanding unnecessary buffs, i can do that, everybody can but the thing is you are supporting the Killer, which is like 90% of this forum, it's common sense you'll get good feedback
Anyway, stop trying to be what you ain't
be a man and say you want him OP, don't hide behind fancy words
I've enjoyed fighting Legion because he's new, and to be honest a lot of players are really bad with him.
However fighting a competent one on The Game was kind of frustrating. People were mending and healing all the time. Took forever to get gens done.
You either then run to a fellow survivor who also gets hit with deep wound then you're both running around trying to find someone to heal you both, or you lead Legion away but then you bleed out and go down.
Or does the timer still pause if he's chasing you? In which case he could still follow you.
I think he would feel like Freddy then in that you'd feel like you couldn't escape him and that isn't fun.
I would personally lower the base fatigue-time, currently he relies on cooldown add-ons too heavily, would make frenzy still down injured survs (so they have to actually heal) and make Mending take longer and not store progress.
I don't think the power should show auras, and mending shouldnt count as healing because it would have potency to become extremely unfun.
Damn, it's almost like the ENTIRE POINT OF THE PTB IS SO PEOPLE CAN GIVE FEEDBACK
I think just the point 2 would make him stronger and more menacing (when No Mither doesn't really have have a downside, that's a problem). My main problem is that currently the Deep Wound doesn't put enough pressure, especially since it's silent and not affected by aura reading, so survivors can do it in safety even near the the killer. I'm not sure if it should be affected by Mangled and Coulrophobia, though.
As it is mending and healing is not the same and do not benefit from the same perks/conditions.
How does this extended 32m radius work exactly, how does it interact with the following perks:
wrong post :P
110% movement speed and 2inning the chase with luck, boyo, hag does it, I do it with huntress without hatchets, now all we need is some sloppy butcher treatment to fix the mend
Ok, according to @Janick, the power is not to shoot down survivors, okay.
In short: I do not see much use to the power of "THE LEGION", since to demolish does not work, only to slow down the game, and if you include the factor of your base speed, it is a problem of time to capture a survivor who have defenses.
TEXT WALL INCOMING
Lets analize the killers, shall we???
pros and cons of their power (because a killer "is" their power)
duration: 6 seconds
recharge: 15 seconds (reusable after 3 seconds.. not that it matters, if you use it right away the sprint lasts for an amazing 1.5 seconds)
"new effect" applied on a hit while using the power: (d̶e̶e̶p̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶n̶d̶s̶ barely noticeable papercuts) so that the killer isn't "OP" which is essentially the BT ticker, and a nice and totally unnecessary boost to Borrowed Time, an already meta perk
pros:
if you hit a non "papercutted" survivor the power duration is reseted, so you can use it again.
cons:
base speed of 110% because the power is "too good"
Please compare the pros and the cons of the power, and tell me why do the devs feel the need of all the killers powers to handiccap them somewhat, i know people complains about clown, doc and freddy, but this is just preposterous, at this rate i'd rater have a killer at 115% with literally no power, and ill explain why.
A lot of people has suggested that the killer is Not supposed to chase people, they are not chasers they are game stallers, because pig and doctor are the top tier killers in the game, right??? wrong, the name of the game for killers is not "stalling" is "chasing" thats why the queen of the game is Nurse and the close seconds are billy and hatchet huntress, because they are good chasers, and thats why no hatchet huntres is the worst killer in the game, because of 110% speed.
So some argue that the objective of the legion should be to get as many on a injured status, but that falls flat on it's face because, unless the survivors are hugging each other linking chains in rarely gonna happen, even when the survivors are on the limit of the terror radius it's hard to get them if they see the killer sprinting, and, if you just leave one survivor "papercutted" to go afther the other the survivor will just mend and go to gen rush already a lot of optimal survivors just dont heal and, against the legion it effectively doesn't matters, because wneh the killer comes for an injured survivor they need to either use their power to get to said survivor and then it doesnt matters if the survivor is injured or not, since the bleed out ticker is applied in full injured state or not, thus requiring five more hits to down an already injured survivor, or, if the killer wants to get the survivor in one hit, they get looped forever thanks to their 110% speed, so, the killer that is supposed to capitalize on injuring multiple survivors, gets nothing for injuring multiple survivors.
The power is also counter productive for chases, as stated early, the best powers are the ones that help in the chase, not the ones that stall the game, and, since the legion's power makes it so that more hits are requiered to down a durvivor, it does not only stalls the survivors for an amazing 15 seconds, but makes the killer waste way more time trying to hit a survivor once at 110% speed while looped or four times at 120% speed with a nice stun of 6 seconds between hits and no scratch marks to track.
Also, again, the killer wins by hooking people, the "chase" powers are the ones that help the most at hooking, not the "stalling" powers or, again, pig, freddy and doc would be the top killers, they aren't, a stalling power that stalls the survivors for an amazing 15 seconds, while making it so that the killer requires to hit a survivor five times, or for the killer to totally forsake than their power exist so that they can down a survivor in two hits while moving at 110% speed, is a completely garbage power, and it does nothing to help the killer get the hooks they so desperately need.
why not just run sloppy butcher and save the best for last on trapper? you could turn any killer into legion with these 2 perks. When a killer can be done in 2 perks and better when put on any killer with 115% ms there is a problem.
I love this new killer but as he is it's too weak. Two simple tweaks at the minimum would fix this: Make DWE always tick down unless being chased or mended by others, and make injured survivors who get DWE applied to them freshly start the countdown at half bar. These two changes will be all it takes to allow Legion to down survivors without making him unfair to play against.
furthermore, the legion has a movement speed of 110% so how the hell are they supposed to catch up with a decent surv but to go and hit them another four times with frenzy (all the while taking a nice six secons stun and giving the surv a speed boost), the "deep wounds" (more like barely noticieable papercuts) are mended in 15 seconds, thats how much the power "stalls " the game,
OMG please understand the legion's base speed is 110% so, please, explain to me how the ######### are they supposed to catch a decent survivor without their "power", do the killer just plays "ring around the rosey" 'till the survivor feels like stoping???
Just FYI for some people, I was just watching HybridPanda's latest video. He went against a Legion using Stab Wounds Study (lowers DW timer) and Frank's Mix Tape (increases Frenzy damage to DW timer). The killer was awful and got bodied, but he was doing more than 50% per hit in Frenzy. That means 3 hits, or 2 Frenzies to down them. Considering how unavoidable Frenzy seems at the time, that add-on combo seems like it would make him crazy powerful. Give those add-ons to a good killer and you might see why it's a bad idea to let him down so easy in Frenzy.
I putting this in big text for everyone to read...
THE SURVIVOR MUST STOP TO MEND
They have to. Immediately after the chase ends, they must do that before ANYTHING else. It's not like RBT, or Madness, or normal healing even, where you can choose to do other things for at least some time before doing those actions.
It's this moment where Legion can close the gap on you, and if you are close enough the 5% less movement speed is irrelevant.
Or they can keep looping, because the timer will not go down during a chase.
i agree on pretty much everything, but point 2), as this would literally make him a 110% movementspeed onestot killer, due to the fact that he would just attack normally and then instantly switch off to Frenzy mode, which is very hard to dodge btw, and outright down you without giving you any chance for a counterplay at this point. i would be okay with this change, if an injured survivor who gets hit with frenzy actually instantly looses 50% of their deep wound timer, instead of having the full 100%. this way, your 2nd attack, which comes right away, would put them on a 20% meter, allowing you to eigther charge your ability back up and frenzy them down or just m1 them regulary.
this would be a better solution imo, as it wouldnt just make him into a walking oneshot.
Dude just break the chase LOL. Like how hard is this to understand really? The game almost seems to do it automatically for you after he fatigues. You can still totally track someone without being in a chase with them. Don't just follow them and trigger a chase, let the chase break and track them from a distance. When they stop to mend you move in and get a hit. If they run they lose time. If they do that too much they just go down because they never mend.
You guys have 0 imagination when it comes to tactics and mind games. Stop just following survivors around like a lost puppy and you will do better I swear.
No they not, as long as the legion is chasing them, the timer stops, and the mending timer is not reseted if the animation ends, so survivors can "mend tap" it, AND, the timer stops as soon as the mending happens, so, a survivor can be on the final second of the "deep wounds" ticker, and still be A OK.
Also, legion can't "close the gap" because after feral hitting a deep wounded survivor, a) the legion takes a SIX seconds stun, b) the survivor gets a nice speed bost and c) while on frenzy the scratchmarks mechanic is deleted, so a survivor has to do nothing but to keep running to some direction the killer doesn't sees them, and then mend on the last second of the "deep wounds" ticker.
break the chase so that the survivor jukes thanks to a six seconds stun, a speed boost to the survivor and no scratch marks, so that any decent survivor just breaks LOS, hides, mends in 15 seconds, and then when the killer finds the survivor it's either one M1, 110% speed hit or five "deep wounds" hits???
Yeah man, because "chasing" a survivor while walking backwards the entire time is a super fun and intuitive mechanic, not cheesy at all.
Or do you mean trying to stay close behind while relying on this game's super fickle trigger of what it considers a "chase" and "not a chase" while depending on the survivor being completely oblivious to your location? Because we totally didn't go through this with The Pig's release when everyone was trying every way to get the Reverse Bear Traps actually be the Pig's main form of killing, like in the entire series of the Saw movies?
Oh, and since you're in the "dude just break the chase LOL" crowd you must also be in
the "dude just break the totem" crowd when it comes to NOED
the "dude just hide behind a generator" crowd for BBQ&Chili (guess they can cancel the locker aura hiding now)
the "dude just slug the survivors" crowd to stop hatch standoffs
the "dude just don't get caught" crowd for tunneling complaints
the "dude just do the generators" crowd for camping complaints
yeah?
Yeah but we don't need to give survivors a 4 obsession indicator which is what happened to Legion, even low level players will understand this and use it to their advantage, granted Pig has the same issue where the timer wont tick if survivors are in a chase, but pig is less likely to get multiple facetraps and give that info to survivors.
@Jannik
Maybe there could be different tiers of deep wound.
Tier 1 (1 stack): dw as it is now
Tier 2 (2 stacks): timer keeps ticking during the chase (maybe at a reduced speed?)
Tier 3 (3 stacks): dw can only be mended by another survivor, medkit or self care
Tier 2 and 3 could be switched, not sure about that.
Reasoning: this would give Legion a choice after one hit to either inflict dw upon another survivor or keep going after the first one. If he does the latter, it comes at the price of being stunned after the second hit, ending his frenzy and giving survivors a headstart.
DW would become a threat on higher tiers rather than being a minor inconvenience.
Well, Hag has her traps to compensate for the 110% movement speed. Legion has nothing but a 110% movement speed or he can tag the survivor multiple times with Frenzy. Ofc both options are inefficient.
Inb4 "Get multiple survivors with Frenzy."
Once you do that, you're at square one which is attempting to down a survivor with 110% or hammering the survivor with Frenzy until you down them. When you down the survivor - the time you wasted by causing DW to all 4 survivors is non existent - meaning you wasted more time then what time you wasted for the survivors.
@powerbats
@No_Mither_No_Problem
@fcc2014
@chemical_reject
@friendlykillermain
@SenzuDuck
@Peasant
@ChesterTheMolester
@ShrimpTwiggs
@MandyTalk
@Peanits
@Janick
That should be enough.
Read over the new feedback, I'll give my thoughts here.
Regarding the changes to deep wound: I don't feel like this would be a significant change. If it's a 60 second timer by default and depletes at a 50% rate during a chase, you're still looking at two minutes before they actually go down. Sure, you could use your power again to shave off a little more time, but if it takes 30 seconds to cooldown, you're still looking at a significantly long chase just to down someone with it. For that reason, I don't really see the need to have it deplete at a reduced rate in a chase at all if the timer is going to be extended.
Being unable to mend yourself back when injured would be neat. I think that more than anything could give the legion a lot of power. It would slow down survivors more than they currently are (where they can immediately start mending the second you turn your back and move to the next survivor), and more importantly, it would allow you to interrupt the probably-still-injured survivors as they're mending each other up, which plays nicely into his power.
Regarding frenzy changes: I'm mostly on board with this, I don't see any real downside here.
The QOL change: I wouldn't want to see that happen. Removing the double stun is one thing, but reducing the fatigue period if you purposefully end frenzy would make the killer very overpowered. You could tag a survivor with deep wound (injuring them), catch back up in frenzy, end frenzy, close the small distance they gained very quickly, and then use a regular M1 to down them. Unless they are immediately next to a window or pallet when your frenzy ends, they're dead.
The big issue with frenzy is that it ignores all of a survivor's counterplay. Pallets don't save you, windows don't save you, nothing does. If the legion gets remotely close, they're going to hit you. That's why I see it as a very tricky killer to balance. How do you make a guaranteed hit powerful without making it feel unfair to play against? And at the same time, how do you make a guaranteed hit weaker without making it feel weak to play with? It's a tricky situation, I don't really think there is a right answer to.
In any case, still good feedback, I think the general idea is good but the killer itself is incredibly touchy to balance. It's hard to say whether or not it would be enough or whether it would make them overpowered, but it could be interesting. I would say that the fatigue reduction couldn't happen, though, that would make him way too powerful at something he's not designed to do.
And thats my biggest issue with this design.
As you said, there is no counterplay from a survivors perspective, all you can do is try to gain a few more seconds. Thats why the power itself has to be so weak, but thats just flawed design in my opinion.
My real problem with the current changes is the insane buff to BT. I mean I can ignore the new killer and simply dont play him, but I cant ignore those BT squads
"For that reason, I don't really see the need to have it deplete at a reduced rate in a chase at all if the timer is going to be extended."
Reasoning: I'm scared that if it depletes normally while in a chase, he would be too overwhelming for the survivor being chased. Then again he is a 110% movement speed killer so maybe this wouldn't be too much to ask for. So, I'll take your word and change it to where the DW timer will deplete at its normal speed when in a chase.
"Removing the double stun is one thing, but reducing the fatigue period if you purposefully end frenzy would make the killer very overpowered."
Reasoning: I wouldn't mind if they didn't go through with the reduced stun time if you purposely end your Frenzy since maybe it could be a bit much. However, the double stun absolutely needs to go ASAP!
I wished more people could be give me feedback like you just did, thank you! Means a lot to see someone take some time to help me understand their point of view!
I like the suggestions and @Peanits reasoning is rally good as well. i discussed this with @DarkWo1f997 in another thread to address similar concerns.
I would think that once out of the chase his timer could tick down the further away he is from the victim, so if for instance he loses them. At the start of an internal 5 sec timer he doesn't re-aquire them then the timer ticks down at an ever increasing rate.
So .5 ticks per second then increasing steadily like BT timer to being depleted at 15 seconds and the only cure is Mending. To keep people from just losing him and Mending for 1 second the pause on the timer will have a decay effect that stacks.
The more you pause the mend similar to the old SC at a pallet pause routine the faster the progress you made will decay back to zero. This would put pressure on people to stop and mend completely.
One thing you could also add to it's effect is to make it so you can't repair gens similar to how you can't do so in Madness Tier III.
I'm not sure how or where this could be tied into your suggestions though or whether it'd work well with your stuff.
Yeah I can see how it could overcomplicate things which is why i'm hoping better minds than mine can think it through , especially the math side of things where x times the y equals EFF YOU CALCULUS !!!!!