The Legion Buffs! (Reasoning and Justification) FINAL THREAD UPDATE!
Introduction
I been doing some research for a while now and I'll have to say, he's very weak. This is due to the fact that he can't secure his hooks easily which is what the game evolves around. For you to hook someone as The Legion, you'll need to hit a survivor with your power four times down or you can M1 a survivor with a 110% movement speed twice (or once if they are in the deep wound status effect). Both processes takes a long time to secure a hook because you are simply doing something that is inefficient. Yes, the killer is a "Pig" where (s)he can cause survivors to waste time by mending but that's not good enough to justify his weak ability to hook survivors.The Legion Solution!
I figured out a way to make The Legion a lethal killer while having counter play!Deep Wound Status Effect:
-If you was previously healthy and you was inflicted by the DW status effect, you'll be able to mend yourself to the injured state. However, if you was previously injured and you was inflicted by the DW status effect, you'll NOT be able to mend yourself to the injured state, only a teammate can mend you to the injured state.
-The DW timer will decrease at its normal speed when in a chase.
Balancing The Changes Above...
-The DW timer will be increased to 60 seconds. Additionally, if you was previously injured and you was inflicted by the DW status effect, you'll see the auras of all survivors in the trial and you'll see "Find Help!" At the bottom of the screen to aid newer players on what they need to do. The survivors auras and the "Find Help!" Will fade away when you are no longer DW'd.
Reasoning: (It's in the spoiler)
Problem:
Basically, the DW status effect is not much of a time waster (which is the developers intentions) because you can easily mend to the injured state. Additionally, survivors wouldn't heal to the healthy state as the DW status effect has the same effect regardless of what your health state is.
My DW changes solve the problems above by: (There's now a punishment to not healing against The Legion)
If a survivor decides not to heal and is inflicted by the DW status effect, they will be punished as they won't be able to mend themselves and will need to waste more time running to a teammate.
Basically, the DW status effect is not much of a time waster (which is the developers intentions) because you can easily mend to the injured state. Additionally, survivors wouldn't heal to the healthy state as the DW status effect has the same effect regardless of what your health state is.
My DW changes solve the problems above by: (There's now a punishment to not healing against The Legion)
If a survivor decides not to heal and is inflicted by the DW status effect, they will be punished as they won't be able to mend themselves and will need to waste more time running to a teammate.
The Legion's Power:
-Every time you use Frenzy on a survivor without the DW status effect, Frenzy will last 2.5 seconds longer than normal, your Frenzy movement speed is increased by 5%, and your Frenzy meter will be refilled. These effects are not permanent and will reset whenever Frenzy ends.
Balancing The Changes Above...
-Frenzy will now last 10 seconds and will take 30 seconds to automatically refill. Additionally, Frenzy can only be used when the power gauge is fully charged.
Reasoning: (It's in the spoiler)
Problem:
The Legion has a power that encourages tagging multiple survivors but was extremely inefficient as tagging multiple survivors is extremely difficult to perform. Additionally, (let's assume the developers don't add my DW changes above) tagging multiple survivors would waste more time than what time you have wasted by DW'ing every survivor since mending is a cake walk. Therefore, tagging a single survivor with Frenzy is the most efficient method for downing survivors which negates the point of the power: Spreading the damage.
How will my changes to The Legion's power solve the problems above: (Tagging multiple survivors will be faster and more do-able)
Since these changes will make The Legion able to tag multiple survivors more efficient and of course faster. You'll now be rewarded for going to survivor to survivor and now tagging a single survivor will now be inefficient due to how easy it is to tag every survivor. Remember, easy doesn't mean you'll always tag every survivor when you use Frenzy, it just means it's more likely of an outcome if you have proper movement and the survivors are in a bad position.
NOTE: The Frenzy charge nerf and requirement to use Frenzy is there to give survivors a chance to recover if you happen to tag everyone assuming if my DW changes was also added in to this change as well. If my DW changes wasn't not added in then we wouldn't need the Frenzy charge nerf and requirement to use Frenzy.
The Legion has a power that encourages tagging multiple survivors but was extremely inefficient as tagging multiple survivors is extremely difficult to perform. Additionally, (let's assume the developers don't add my DW changes above) tagging multiple survivors would waste more time than what time you have wasted by DW'ing every survivor since mending is a cake walk. Therefore, tagging a single survivor with Frenzy is the most efficient method for downing survivors which negates the point of the power: Spreading the damage.
How will my changes to The Legion's power solve the problems above: (Tagging multiple survivors will be faster and more do-able)
Since these changes will make The Legion able to tag multiple survivors more efficient and of course faster. You'll now be rewarded for going to survivor to survivor and now tagging a single survivor will now be inefficient due to how easy it is to tag every survivor. Remember, easy doesn't mean you'll always tag every survivor when you use Frenzy, it just means it's more likely of an outcome if you have proper movement and the survivors are in a bad position.
NOTE: The Frenzy charge nerf and requirement to use Frenzy is there to give survivors a chance to recover if you happen to tag everyone assuming if my DW changes was also added in to this change as well. If my DW changes wasn't not added in then we wouldn't need the Frenzy charge nerf and requirement to use Frenzy.
Quality Of Life Changes:
-Double stun is removed so pick one developers, attack cool down or fatigue.
REMEMBER: These numbers can be changed later on if it's OP or underpowered. So, please just ignore the numbers as they are mainly place holders and take everything you have read with a grain of salt.
@Janick, please give this another read!
Feedback and criticism is appreciated as always but please don't bash me if you don't like something. Additionally, don't LOL rate this thread without saying why you disagree because I tried really REALLY hard and I put a crap ton of thought into this so don't disappoint me!
Videos on why The Legion is a weak killer
Here's a few videos by Monto, he says everything better and goes into detail in each video. The first two videos go into how the killer is not viable by destroying The Legion as a survivor.VIDEO 1.)
https://youtu.be/9oy7ZmFrsIEVIDEO 2.)
https://youtu.be/ipiUWXPyM7oTru3ta1ent SPEAKS the TRUTH: He says Legion is good against BAD survivors.
https://youtu.be/8ReHiCNSUwQ
Comments
Yes, if you're not in a chase then say after 5 seconds the timer starts counting down and goes faster the longer you don't fully mend. So if you start running around the progress you made will also start to decay back to zero and the timer then starts ticking quicker.
If you add in the effect they can't work on gens until fully mended then to fully heal is x seconds, 15 for the mend and the SC time.
I would love to give some feedback on your ideas, but I actually haven't seen much about the new character. I haven't seen any gameplay or his ability, so I can't really give you anything constructive.
teach me how you so good at making these type of rework ideas
@Nickenzie
@Janick
Although I like your attempt at solving the Legion's problem, it's hard for me to consider it a good idea, because, apart from anything you came up with, I believe it's build on fundamentally clunky mechanics.
What is wrong with the Legion?
In Dead By Daylight we like to keep things icon; easy to understand. Many of the ideas around DBD, such as Lockers for hiding, Pallets for throwing, etc. make so much sense to us as they are easy to understand.
The developers decided to do something similar with the Health System: Healthy > Injured > Dying state. Easy, right?
Although it works great conceptually, it's very limiting in the rate at which a killer should be able to attack someone because every killer kills in 2 hits (or at best 1).
With a 0-100 Hit Point system where every killer would do 50 damage, the devs would have a lot more variety and room for variation; changing it so that you start bleeding at a certain HP range (say 80) and you start bleeding more frequently depending on how much damage you have exactly.
But what IF we want to be able to have a killer that hits people more frequently, without being overpowered? Well, this is where we corner ourselves; because of our lack of having a more dynamic health system, we create a new health system (similar to what is mentioned above) and have that run at the same time as the traditional DBD health system!
Then we'll artificially create some amount of interplay between the 2, even being it one-sided!
Our desires for the dynamic HP system leads us here: Some suggest that when in the injured state, DW should start at 50%, effectively being exactly what I mentioned, but the DW playing as a more dynamic HP bar allowing for 75% and 25% Hp hits, etc. In short we really try to make it work... but hell does it feel unnatural having this intermediate health-system compensate.
Even worse is the Current Health system, where the interplay between the 2 separate health-system stop working together once someone entered the Injured state.
When we look at this killer we see weirdness. Why is there no difference between hitting a hurt or healthy survivor? Why can I not see scratchmarks when in Frenzy?
Well, the answer is, we've gotten too technical by trying to build on a fundementally flawed killer.
When searching for "Legion" in the searches, I see most debates stabilising and agreeing on building on top of these flawed mechanics.
But I think I have an Alternative:
We already have a great killer here!
You read that right. Conceptually, this killer is great! When I found out that they made a mechanic that allows you to effectively deal with grouped survivors I got excited and was impressed by the Devs.
Uncounciously we already know who the Legion really is:
-He stabs frequently
-He is good at moving over various obstacles
-He's a shredder of groups
Let's turn this killer in something great.
My suggestion will feel weird as it's very non-conforming to the current direction of the Legion debate.
My suggestion is only loyal to the concept of the killer and will do everything to avoid building on top of flawed mechanics and conceptually dull technicalities.
An alternative.
How he'll play:
The (new) Legion is a killer that is good at shredding groups. He benefits from survivors who like to stick together. He jumps from target to target and the more he hits, the stronger he gets. When he finds a survivor alone, he generally will be able to catch them, but after inflicting damage, he'll most likely have lost them.
Definitions:
-Deep Wounds:
Deep wounds is an effect applied to a survivor that triggers a timer. This timer can be stopped by mending for 16 seconds. (8 seconds with a teammate). The timer always ticks. whether in a chase or not, except when you're mending.
-Quick Cuts:
Quick cuts is a delayed hit of any nature. It works like a status effect applied to a survivor, like exhaustion. While this status effect is active on a survivor, a killer (through whatever ability) can then trigger Quick Cuts, removing it and applying the hit with whatever intensity. Note here that the effect of Quick Cuts is not always the same, in as far is it signals it will be able to trigger a delayed hit of any nature on you.
-Frenzy-Stun
The Frenzy stun is a stun the Legion can receive (Typically after depleting the frenzy bar or hitting a survivor for the 2nd time while in frenzy). During this stun, the Legion stares at the ground while looking at his hands, completely losing vision of the environment for X amount of seconds. During this duration and 5 seconds after, he's unable to see scratchmarks and blood. (The scratchmarks and blood are not deleted. Their alpha is reduces, similar to the spirit until they start to fade back in.)
-First Hit
The first hit refers to the first hit against a unique survivor during this instance of frenzy. Meaning that at best, you could get 4 first hits off if you hit every survivor once, until you are forced to go for a second hit. That it is called the first hit doesn't mean that it's the first hit in the game, or against that survivor ever. It's exclusively defined by this instance of activating Frenzy until it is depleted.
-Second Hit
See first hit. The second hit refers to the second time you hit the same survivor during the same instance of activating Frenzy. Theoretically you could get 4 second hits off if you already hit all 4 survivors once with your first hit.
-Sudden Death
Sudden Death is a status effect that allows a killer to mori that player.
-Red Frenzy Glow
This is the glow survivors will gain after they've been hit for the first time. It is important to do it this way around so that other survivors who might be hiding aren't unfairly exposed.
-Red Frenzy Indicator
This is the red symbol you see during frenzy, that show you the location of the survivors.
His power:
His power is revolving around the Frenzy bar. When frenzy is active, he can vault pallets and windows fast, see scratchmarks as ever before and he can hit a survivor, what is defined as "a first time' and "a second time".
Whenever the Legion hits a target for the First Time, he refills his frenzy bar completely, Moves up 1 tier (up to 5) and applies "Quick Cuts".
As the second hit is "the combo closer", the second hit will trigger the effect of quick cuts on all the survivors except the survivor receiving the second hit.
Depending on what tier you were it, the effects of your second hit and Quick Cuts are increased.
The Legion wants to hit as many survivors before going for his second hit. The higher his tier, the more people he will have Quick Cuts applied to and the stronger the effect of quick cut gets.
Because your first and second hit gets stronger the higher your tier is, you want to hit as many survivors before ending your streak by attack a survivor twice.
If you manage to hit all 4 survivors, you will be in tier 5, which will turn you into a machine-gun as later defined.
The exact details:
Tier 1:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is relatively short
First Hit: (The first hit that brings you up in that tier is described in that tier. (see tier 2)
**Second Hit: ** (impossible to get as you jump to tier 2 after your first hit)
Tier 2:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is significantly increased from tier 1.
First Hit: Apply quick cut to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Injures a survivor.
If Injured: Brings a survivor to the Dying State.
-You receive the Legion-Stun for 7 seconds.
Tier 3:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is slightly increased from tier 2.
First Hit: Apply quick cut to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Injures a survivor and applies a Traditional Borrow Time effect for 25 seconds.
If Injured: Brings a survivor to the Dying State.
-You receive the Legion-Stun for 5 seconds.
-Triggers Quick Cuts: The Survivor affected by quick cuts gain Deep Wounds.
Tier 4:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is slightly increased from tier 2.
First Hit: Apply quick cut to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Instantly downs a survivor.
If Injured: Downs a survivor.
-You receive the Legion-Stun for 3 seconds.
-Triggers Quick Cuts: The Survivor affected by quick cuts get Injured + receive Deep Wounds. If they were already injured, they are brought down to the Dying State.
Tier 5:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is slightly increased from tier 2.
First Hit: Applies "Sudden Death" to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Brings a survivor to the Dying State.
If Injured: Brings a survivor to the Dying State and applies a per
-You no longer receive the Legion-Stun after stabbing a survivor for the 2nd time during this instance of frenzy.
-The lack of Legion-Stun allows you to apply the "Second Hit' to all remaining survivors if you have reach to them.
-The Second hit refills your frenzy bar.
Triggers Quick Cuts: The Survivor affected by quick cuts get Injured + receive Deep Wounds + Mangled and Haemorrhage. If they were already injured, they are brought down to the Dying State.
Other details:
-The Red Frenzy Indicator is an indicator shown every so now and then intervals. They are only shown when a survivor is moving.
-Upon Depleting your Frenzy timer, you receive a Legion-Stun lasting 3 seconds.
-The Legion can see scratchmarks during Frenzy.
-When the Legion applies a second hit, he applies broken to that survivor for the same duration he is stunned. (This is to avoid heal abuse with the giant stun times.)
-Quick cuts only lasts for the duration of that instance of Frenzy. After is is finished, Quick cuts is completely removed from each survivor. If the effects were already triggered, they will of course continue.
Balance
So what are his strengths and what are his weaknesses?
His strength is obviously being able to get over obstacles fast and being able to quickly inflict wounds to a lot of people in a close area.
His weakness, more then in the original version, is that he is terrible at "tunneling" or focussing down someone if he doesn't have reach to multiple people.
His stun is deliberately awful, as to make it extremely consistent for survivors to disappear.
This is what is so beautiful about this solution:
He is a killer that is very good at hitting people, like the nurse, but can not tunnel these people as he loses them after applying a low-tier second hit.
This means that, unlike the frustration caused by the nurses ability to ignore most of the game, the Legion will lower that frustration by not being able to tunnel these survivors like the nurse could.
This forces him to cause havoc across the board against anyone who he can find, hoping he has enough map pressure and manages to stumble on a hit, hiding survivor, or hopes to find 2 or 3 survivors together, at which point he can slowly start machine gunning them down, not requiring him to find them again (by the fault of survivors themselves).
Now we have a strong killer that unlike the nurse manages to lower frustration, as he spreads his/her strength across the map, instead of against 1 survivor.
A killer that is fun AND strong.
A killer that is easy to understand:
A machine gun against groups; requiring you to sit still while he stabs at your team, in the hope you are hidden..
and if he catches you alone; strong at hitting, but bad at tracking you from Healthy To Downed.
I hope by that, you see a solution other then the building on previous clunky mechanics.
We have the chance to turn his/her beautiful concept into a killer we all can enjoy.
Along the variables like: Legion Stun Time, Frenzy timer across tears, the increased movementspeed, etc. we have all we need to turn him from UP to OP, being able to settle at a perfect balance with healthy mechanics that feel intuitive and make sense.
No more staring at the ground to avoid triggering a chase while chasing a DWed survivor!
Nope! Just intuitive mechanics, conceptually sound technicalities and a lot of stabbing.
At any rate, I prefer the QA team's proposals.
@redsopine01
Okey, so this is how you would reach up tiers:
If you made it to tier 5 and for whatever the other 3 survivors are still within range, you can now mow them down.
Technically speaking, you could us frenzy to down 4 survivors with a total of 8 hits, faster than any other killer. It's just that the survivors have tools (positioning and hiding) to defend themselves against this from happening.
Note that the moment you leave frenzy you drop back to tier 1. Note that if you go for a second hit against a survivor (and you're not in tier 5), you will apply the effects of that tier and then drop back to tier 1.
A visual example of a Legion attacking 3 different survivor and attacking the 3rd one for a second time:
(Knife represents a hit)
(Skull represents the Quick Cut status effect)
Otherwise:
You don't necissarily activate tier 5.
You either "get" tier 5 (by hitting 4 survivors only once during this single activation of frenzy).
Or you apply the effects of tier 5 (by being in toer 5 and hitting a survivor for the second time).
Unlike any other tier, tier 5 doesn't stun you afterwards, meaning that you can keep applying tier 5 (the insta down) to every survivor you have reach to.
In case of a Meg, Dwight, Kate, Jake;
Hit all of them once during frenzy = tier 5
Try hitting them all a second time to insta down them. (They are all hurt from your quick cuts proc anyways). In tier 5, every hit (inuclding your second, resets the frenzy bar until all of them are down or you run out because you failed to reach them in time.
Upon exiting frenzy, you become tier 1 again.
But does he not get affected by the slow vaulting which is why his momentum carries him past then? Also wouldn't the survivor be exposed to an attack even if he slides forward some due to the slow vault?
Hello
I would like to make it clear that the Legion requires 4 hit to down a Deep wound Surviror.
The first hit is the initial 30 sec, a subsequent hit removes 10 sec, for a total of 4 required hit. If you are experimenting a 5 hit chase, please let us know because it is definitely a bug.
Thank you
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD
Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.
Survivors being able to stop the timer, and the timer not decreasing while in a chase kind of counters the idea of a "delated inst down Killer" so no one with any skill is going to be downed by DW.
And I thought DW are more like RBT traps. There is a thread, but it's only there to give you a reason dealing with it and waste your time.
I can only assume that there are some decent buffs en route.
I guess it’s almost guaranteed then but still it’s not fun for the survivor.
in your opinion, can the power be relied upon to have a fair chance to get downs on survivors?
EDIT: not being sarcastic I’m genuinely curious to know how effective the power is. I don’t want it to be guaranteed downs, but it shouldn’t be rare either. Do you guys feel you’ve hit that sweetspot in between?
I think he would be a lot more powerful if hitting an injured survivor with DW would give them deep wounds with only 20 seconds on the clock and not stun you. Then you can hit them again to knock them down to 10 seconds. This way, you only have to hit them in frenzy once after your first stun if they decided not to heal.
Isn't this where you come up and non frenzy smack them since they're wounded already at that point?
My idea goes a similar way.
The timer should stay the SAME where it stopped after the mending, until the victim got healed up completely.
So staying in injured state is not an option.
Only after fully healed the timer starts with a full bar again if deep wounds gets applies anew.
@Nickenzie - In regards to your suggested the deep wound mechanics.
I think there needs to be two different timers, as indicated just below.
1 - healthy -> DW'ed - Longer than the normal DW timer to compensate for timer going down during a chase.
2 - injured -> DW'ed - Longer timer than the one above.
I think the deep wound timer needs to keep going down in a chase, but slightly slower, so that way if the killer decides to apply pressure on the same DW'ed victim, the killer will not be severely punished for it.
If a victim gets DW'ed while injured and while mending the victim gets "find help" the DW timer will stop before 5% left, here the victim can only stop the bleeding by keep mending, which would be different from the one who got DW'ed while healthy. In this situation the victim who keep mending will occasionally get a skill check where if they fail it, the timer will automatically decrease by 1% - which basically give a maximum of 4 failed skill attempts before going down. The result from this will be that if they're unable to actually get to another victim, they still have the option to stall the bleeding until another victim will get there and help, which will make this DW'ed victim unable to move and will pretty much be a sitting duck, unless they're willing to risk going down. Either way at this point the victim should consider it lucky if it manages to recover from this state.
In regards to the legion, I think it's base move speed should be 4.2m/s, or maybe even 4.1m/s as the legion is based of a victim, also because it's way too easy to keep chasing one who's already DW'ed who also happen to have a timer that keeps going down while in a chase, and with the changes suggested by Nickenzie, it might be necessary.
..and perhaps make legion unable to actually benefit from bloodlust, because legion already has the feral frenzy, which should be more than enough speed boost.
So why make his power play peek-a-boo with the survivors
A 60 second DW timer is a lot if you think about it and most survivors should have enough time to mend (or find a teammate to mend if was previously injured). This and having Frenzy get stronger as you tag multiple survivors should help him slow down the game since he's able to DW multiple survivors. Consequently, we need to a way to balance this out because just these two buffs will make him a killing machine. The Legion will have to wait for his power to completely charge to 100% before using it and it takes more time to fully charge it (as well as lasting just a little bit longer). While my changes will definitely make him better, he should stay at 110% because it's the only thing he has when he doesn't have Frenzy.
I'm will not, as I'm just trying to throw some ideas so we can better fix the legion. The skill checks would only begin triggering when the injured victim with DW has reached 5% or less of the DW timer and has also reached the "find help", as this will ensure that unless the victim keeps doing the skill checks it will eventually go down, unless it receives help in time.
However one thing I would say probably would be needed, is that the last survivor should still be able to progress through the "find help" stage, but only if it's the last victim, where it will progress slower than normal. So that the last victim won't be completely depending on someone who isn't there.
Also, what I were suggesting of course were intended to work with what you already have suggested.
You're right, 60 seconds is quite some time, hence also why I suggested two different timers as, one is able to self-mend completely without help and the other will need help with the last part.
However with that said, we may have to realize that a rework will be a lot easier and better in the long run.
That is fair to have two different timers, both because there are mechanical differences but most certainly also because that if you're DW'ed while injured you cannot mend yourself completely, which is obviously quite different from being able to mend yourself. There were a reason why I didn't put a specific value on the timers, namely because they were meant to be relative to what you're suggesting value wise, or what a dev would for that matter.
So the slightly longer than normal timer were to compensate for the fact the the time would be going down while chasing, albeit slightly slower. Where the second timer would have to be longer than the one if you had been healthy when the DW was applied, to compesate for the fact that cannot completely mend yourself. So I weren't saying it should be 60 seconds, that was your initial value, what I'm suggesting value-wise is relative what you're suggesting. So if the first DW timer normally is 25 seconds, then maybe make it 30s (increase by 20% from the base of 25s), and make the second DW timer 40 seconds (increase by 60% from the base of 25s). I think that seems reasonable.
Also I don't know if you saw the recent dev stream were @Janick mentioned that one of the changes in the next patch would be, if one were applied DW while being injured it would start at 20s rather than at 25s.
One thing I think might be a good idea to change as well, would be to change when the slightly slower bleeding occurs, from being in a chase to when being within the terror radius. The reason being that currently what we see legion do is this: 1-First Apply DW, then follow up with a second DW strike, then break from chase to see if it's possible to apply it to someone else nearby, if so then do the above, but then return to the first victim to DW strike them again which resets their mending progress and then breaks chase and follows until the victim goes down or does a final DW strike. So changing it from the when chasing to being within the terror radius would make legion not being able to exploit just breaking chase to have the bleed begin at full speed, so that legion actually needs distance him/herself from the victim to achieve that.
"Delayed Instadown"
Not trying to be rude in any way, but there's a bit of a problem with that statement.
I agree, no killer should from a baseline perspective be able to instantly down anyone.
Because if you consider it, every killer who has the capability to instantly down either has to use very rare or ultra rare addons or have to put in a great deal of effort for it.
Knowing what I said to @Incarnate, he is not lethal enough to be considered an "Delayed instadown killer". Please @Janick, you gotta take my suggestions and implement it to the game. I'll sign a contract or do anything saying you have the legal rights to take my idea so we all can have a more balanced killer!