The 2nd game in BOTB tourney shows how unbalanced DBD is at top-level play
First of all, I'm gonna ignore the games that were played by otz and ayrun, because the survivors there were clearly not good enough for tournament play. However, the first 2 games, the second in particular, show how unbalanced this game is.
In this game, the end result is a 2k/2 escape. The thing is, the killer was Volga playing as nurse. So immediately we already have a very good player playing the best killer in the game and they can't even manage a 4k against these survivors. Also, the survivors even 3 genned themselves and still managed to get 2 escapes.
The nurse also had to camp and tunnel to even get their 2 kills and managed to get lucky with a 3-gen.
This is why tournaments can NEVER be killer vs survivor and have to be teams of killers and survivors, like in hexy's tournament
Comments
And uhhhh, the devs said a 2K is a result of a balanced match.
So that shows the opposite - a good killer facing good survivors gets two kills - what's the problem here?
2 kill 2 escape isnt balanced. Those two survivors view that as a win for themselves, not a draw. The killer doesn't view that as a draw its a loss. 2 kill 2 escape only benefits survivors.
For you maybe. Some people are just competetive and want to win regardles of what it is.
Does this discussion topic take into account the skill of the survivors though? This seems focused on a Nurse being an absolute demon of a Killer that should defeat survivors all the time, rather than if this scenario was played out multiple times and how a slight change of play could drastically alter the round.
That round could be replayed a hundred times, with each offering a different result, either in terms of survival, performance or BP earnt. One round alone doesn't illustrate anything other than on this occasion an outcome was determined on how the flow of this round went.
here here so true
Then when is there a draw? Half of the survivors completed their objective and the killer completed half of his objective. Seems balanced to me.
And what you said is very subjective. The devs say otherwise.
No, my argument is that in order to get a 2k/2e the killer needs to play nurse/spirit/PH and play dirty (tunnel/camp) I'm not saying that these things should not be allowed, it just shows that the killer needs to meet very specific requirements in order to stand a chance
my argument is that in order to get a 2k/2e the killer needs to play nurse/spirit/PH and play dirty (tunnel/camp) I'm not saying that these things should not be allowed, it just shows that the killer needs to meet very specific requirements in order to stand a chance
don't forget the 3 gens too
It's always funny how when you have killers that do well people always say ignore those matches the survivors weren't good
Don't they realise when a killer plays well he makes the survivors look bad
Not going to make much comment on how balanced the game is or not on high levels but that's just a pattern that I'm noticing
Also nurse is not the best killer in the game. I really wish that myth could be busted. With all her bugs and wankyness she's bottom A at best.
Just because in theory a perfect nurse can never lose doesn't make it that way in a real game
I doubt any killer thinks oh cool 2 survivors escaped and probably pipped, good draw. Those two survivors who escaped 100% view that as a win for themselves, they could care less about the other two survivors who died because they themselves won and beat the killer.
I'm not saying every killer deserves a 4k, I'm just saying the rhetoric of 2k 2 escape is fair really isn't. It is only fair for survivors, killers gain nothing from this.
This could actually mean your skill is at x and the survivors you lost are at higher level y.
To OP: Tournaments that i've watched consist of an extreme genrush sacrificing all other gameplay options. That's not how the majority should or will play. A 2K against a sweaty genrush ignoring all other mechanics means killers might actually be a little OP.
Bro some of the survivors literally weren't even looking behind them
i would change the narrative
if you face as survivor anything else but nurse and spirit who camp + tunnel, use noed and walk away with less than 2e
you are bad at the game or somebody at your team is really bad at the game
Errr.... Alright, let's put this another way. The survivors are a team consisting of 4 players, the killer is a team consisting of one player. If two survivors escape, and the killer gets 2 kills then each team completed half of their objective. Sounds like a draw, doesn't it?
This situation is OBJECTIVELY a draw. If a survivor thinks they won because they escaped or if a killer thinks they lost because they killed only 2 survivors then that opinion is SUBJECTIVE.
If we went with your logic though, the 2 survivors who lose will view it as a lost match. If two survivors "lose" and two survivors "win", then what does that give you?
And lastly, why would you care about a singular survivor's opinion, anyways? Survivors, as a team only win if 3+ survivors escape.
Both sides should be balanced around top level play: no other game balances for people who aren’t good.
The idea that it would somehow ruin the game for non top people is silly if you think about it. Decisive strike and dead hard could be taken out of the game and it wouldn’t affect joe blow and his friends playing on the weekend. Their survival rate would probably be the same. These things are only broken in the hands of skilled players, who would be most affected by balance changes.
Because survivors view themselves as a team when it benefits them, such as SWF, yet they also want the 1v1 against the killer.
I can tell you when I play solo queue as survivor If I can save my teammates great, if I was the only one who escaped great, I beat the killer and could care less about the other survivors. I won, I pipped.
Now of course every killer won't think this way, or even care. However what I am saying is overall, the "draw" rhetoric only benefits survivors. It does not benefit killers at all.
If as a killer you work your ass off against 4 ds, 4 adrenaline, 4 borrowed times, and 4 unbreakables and you barely get 2 kills and 2 survivors escape. Those 2 survivors won, they beat you, that killer does not think that was a "draw", that was a loss.
Bring Out The Beer?
Again. Subjective opinion. If you escape in solo queue, good for you. But if two other survivors die, then you AS A TEAM have a draw.
And as killer, you are the type of person who thinks the glass is half empty, don't you? Let me tell you, if I got two kills against a good team with 4 DS/unbreakable/BT, then personally I would see it as a WIN, not as a LOSS.
But then again, that's only my opinion. Objectively, looking at the game's perspective, 2k/2e is a draw.
Subjectivity vs objectivity. It's all there is to it, really.
Yea people fail to understand this. LOL at pretty much the first 10 replies.
Guys he's not talking about tournament play he is talking about top level play. There is a huge difference. Tournament play includes top level play but top level play is not exclusive to tournaments.
Just get a really good SWF and you will see what he is talking about. And it's not as uncommon as people claim, at least on Xbox. Literally every other game is a 3 or 4 stack, and the ones inbetween are 2 duos usually. Getting 4 solos on Xbox above purple ranks is INSANELY rare.
My team and I just finished the finals of this other smaller tourney. We won, and of the games we played with the 2nd place team (7 rounds, 2 trials per round), killers ONLY got about 16 kills collectively between both teams (which the highest possible is 56 kills for 14 trials). Most games were 1k, there were a handful of 2ks (I played Huntress one game where i was set to get at least a 2k possible 3k but they found a ######### key and the hatch spawned right in front of the guy with the key so I only got 1k), and exactly 2 4k's, both of which were the same round (Freddy on Hawkins) though in our match we were on track for at least a 3e then he had Devour and it all went to #########. So if we ignore the Freddy Hawkins games (because that map/killer combo is just OP period), that means 8 actual kills out of 48 possible kills. That's a 17% kill rate.
Mind you the tournament requires survivors and killers to use their 3 teachables, and killers were limited to specific add-ons, it still shows that the game heavily favors survivors at the end of the day. My team and I also played a bunch of KYF games with no rules other than no pink stuff, and the best anyone was able to get was a 2k (well one game was a 4k but we were meming it wasn't a serious match).
You really can't beat a good group of players, especially if they are on comms.
BOTB tourney just exemplifies this problem.
Then DBD is the wrong game for you. I would suggest playing a game with less RNG if you want to "win regardless of what it is".
For a draw neither side can win or lose, survivors had 2 winners.
Well, survivors also have two losers. What about it?
You are viewing the survivors as a single unit. When in reality not many people think this way. Do you honestly believe the 2 survivors that escaped are thinking "oh darn, we drew because 2 of us died"? Hell no, they are thinking they won, they beat the killer.
I'll just throw my hat in here as well. To me if 3+ survivors escape, when I'm playing killer that's a loss. When 2 survivors escape, and 2 survivors die that's a draw. And when I kill 3+ survivors that's a win.
I don't care that a survivor thinks they won despite 3 teammates dying and they got a free escape through the hatch. The way it sounds from how you are describing it, as long as a single survivor escapes you'll never get a win when you are playing killer. That's pretty ridiculous to me. But half of the survivors dying and half escaping means that in your logic 2 think they lost, and 2 think they won. As a team which it's a team game that is a draw.
I understand what you are saying, and yeah it can seem that its coming off that way. However realistically those 2 survivors did win, and they probably pipped, while as a killer, especially in red ranks if you do not get all 4 you probably don't even black pip.
When i say that a "draw" only benefits survivors, i mean it in the sense of that two get to say they, won, and 2 get to more than likely pip. Hell even the ones that died might have pipped, The killer on the other hand doesn't get to say he won, he lost, and probably didn't pip. That is why I am saying its not balanced.
Nurse wasnt nerfed because God Nurses, she was nerfed because Omega 5-blink Nurses, which were very common and not that hard to play since you had 5 tries at hitting the Survivor also she had an even better proxy camping potential than Demogorgon.
So they nerfed her basekit solely because of add-on combinations?
Okay. By the same logic the two survivors that died also think "Oh darn, I lost, I hope I escape the next match". And what? I bet the survivors who escape would be happy and the survivors who die would be unhappy. Doesn't change anything at all...
That is why, and I say it for the nth time, OBJECTIVELY the survivors should be viewed as a team. And if only half of the team escapes then it is a draw. Capiche?
Ah yes, the fun party game like Mario Party, but where there is only ranked matchmaking (no casual matchmaking), an MMR system, and the entire game is balanced around tiny little buffs like 5% to this, or 10% to that.
Just like Mario Party, where you can lose on literally the last turn by having all your stars stolen by a random dice roll!
I mean I can get a 4k, but because a survivor kills themselves too early, or I'm using a killer who has one shots. I might not pip as a killer. Pipping honestly shouldn't be taken into account at all imo.
Also in my view you shouldn't really pip as a killer for getting a 2k. Pipping should be reserved for when you do dominate and do exceptionally well. That's if the pipping system actually did it's job and worked correctly, which it doesn't. As it's a draw. A lot of ranking systems with draws barely have you go up, but you don't go down. Survivors it's way easier to pip than killer. Unless the killer sucks and you escape and sometimes de-pip, or just black pip because you just did objectives and left. Not really the survivors fault that they never got chased, and never got to unhook anyone because the killer couldn't catch the survivor, or was afk in the basement.
Long story short, using pip system to base off wins is really faulty in my views. Ideally if you 2 hooked everyone, everyone in the whole match should pip or black pip at worst. Due to how long the game went on and how many chases/unhooks were made. The did you kill 3+ or did you 3+ escape should really determine victory. With 2 being balanced and a draw. No individual survivor actually thinks they can 1v1 a killer by doing all of the gens and escaping the game all by their selves. If they say they can they are trolling. They know it's a team game that survivors play.
And why do you care what they think? The game gives killer and survivors their respective objective and tells you that the balance (tie condition) is 2k2e. Care about your objectives.
Precisely. I agree with that. The pipping system, itself, does not reflect the Devs' stance that a 2k/2 escape is a balanced match ending in a draw.
As is typical here, the in-game system design does not reflect what they state. Using Pips as an indicator is simply flawed right now.
Actually her base kit is very similar to what she already had, the main diference is the blink regaining ratio, before you got all your blinks back after fatigue, now you get one every 3 seconds, while it sounds harsh the fatigue from a 2 blink miss is 2,5 seconds, once you recover you already have 1 back, its not THAT bad. It was a nerf and I wont argue that but is not what made Nurse what it is now, its the removal of most of her "+X blink" addons.
To answer your question, I believe they nerfed the Blink regaining ratio to punish mistakes and blink spamming, the sheer amount of distance you could gain by spamming blinks was worth the 3-4 second stun, that was what made Omega Nurse so freakishly strong, even in hands of a not so very good player.
2k still isnt a loss whats this obsession with "if you didnt 4k you lost"
So... You wanted the Nurse to get a 4k and because she didn't the game is unbalanced?
Every Player versus Player Game is competetive to a certain degree and nobody can win always, doesn't matter which competetive game or esport it is. If you want to be the best hag player in the world, you have to practice a lot. If you just want to have fun it's ok too.
You are wrong, there never was no thing as a Omega 5 blink nurse, omega nurse required 2 addons and so did 5 blink nurse.
No nurse ever needed to camp ever since you would travel the entire map with a few blinks. No matter who popped up on bbq you go there.
Oh and from the same person that brought creations such as "small pp build" he complained vocally about no counterplay against god tier nurses on the forums which you can imagine, lots of people jumped in on the bandwagon and suddenly there were god nurses everywhere. The only fun part is that he actually challenged people on the forums to play against a nurse and get a win, ofc he wouldnt play the nurse himself but a friend of his (this already tells how totally broken op it was, just for the lulz). Do not get me wrong, omega and 5 blink was busted af but addon needed change and nothing else.
This is the reason why nurse had a class of her own in the tierlists, demo was not even remotely close to that and never will be.
So yeah god nurse argument was a thing back then and it is pretty much the reason why basekit was demanded to be touched. Since that nerf however it is funny that literally the same people who wanted nerfs back then defend swf since then with "well how many people do play that way?".
Yeah, I know the 5 blink and omega nurses were a separated thing (Omega was range, 5blink speaks for itself) is a way of speaking and I didnt state she needed to camp, just said it was freakishly easy to proxy camp with her as you rescued someone she could go back near the hook in seconds, get fatigued and have all her blinks again, even easier than proxy camping with Demogorgon (I just compared their proxy camping capabilities, not the whole package as Killers).
The problem with both iterations of busted addons Nurses were even in regular hands they were very strong either by having way too many second chances at a hit and being almost impossible to disengage or having godlike pressure. Obviusly an average 5blink Nurse would have a hard time getting hits against extremely good Survivors, but against average Survivors she was devastating.
Prisma and Eternal Kittens are elite teams. Volga is one of the best Nurse players in the world. I don't think it's as much of an imbalance as it is two extremely high level teams going head to head. The killer knew to play for the 3 gen, and the survivors knew exactly how to deal with it. If anything, it was a great game.
I think it shows (though I haven't seen the game myself) that both sides have issues. Killers shouldn't need to camp and tunnel, and camping and tunneling shouldn't be so powerful that high level players can barely counter it. I think Killers need a new tool in their kit as base, some early game pressure, and then survivors in turn need something to make camping/tunneling a little less powerful. Then give a few tweaks to some of the weaker killers too. Bring them more in line with the stronger killers like they did with Doctor. Pig, Wraith, Trapper, Myers, Demo, Clown, and a few others could use some slight buffs.
Do you have selective reading or something? The guy was playing the absolute strongest Killer in the game by a long shot and was a top tier player with her as well AND he had a 3 gen and still could barely get a 2k only when tunneling and camping. He's saying at high lvl play the game is way to survivor sided, because it is and that match in the tournament is proof of it. You realize that Nurse makes pallets completely useless right? Those survivors were playing without their primary defense and still did that well, that is the problem right there. The problem is that the killer is NOT the power role, no matter how good he is no matter what killer he plays the killer will always lose if the survivors play at the highest level.
2 escape, 2 kill never made much sense anyway. I mean for one, this result implies that all 5 generators and exit gates are powered every match, otherwise, how else would two survivors escape without a key. by this standard, it means survivor always wins and the killer is just a pawn for survivors amusement, a dark road to not talk about.
survivor's emblem system is individual performances based so as long you hit all the checks, you can never "lose" if your good but escaping as whole is team effort and that isn't really reflected in pips for survivor. My guess is so that survivors are not punished for getting a bad team in solo queue and it makes so that if you die early as survivor, you get instantly the result so you can move on to your next match. The side effect is that after like 2nd week, everyone who plays survivor regularly and wins more than they lose will be rank 1 because you ** can't ** depip(lose) because emblem system does not properly reflect winning/losing from team perceptive of the game.
When comes to killer side, it does properly reflex individual performance, but it punishes hook suicides/mori/dc on 3rd emblem for killer because you can't hook someone 3 times if they die instantly and it does not consider instant downs as separate hits towards chaser emblem(4th emblem for killer) and again, because you can draw from 2 kills/2 escapes, even if you face good survivor teams, you'll never derank even when you technically lost.
The tournament has its own funny scoring, so its fascinating that nobody can really decide a win condition. I wonder if they'll ever fix emblem system reflect winning and losing or perhaps its better that no such competition exists.
It also cracks me up to see people talking about the $15k like it's life-changing money. A prize pool that gets taxed & then split 4-5 ways. Yeah, HUGE numbers! You could maybe get a used car or update your P.C. (if you win).
Ignore all the hours that go into getting tournament ready by the way. That's free labor.
Dead by daylight requires snow-balling by the killer to win at high ranks. Why is it fair to give examples of survivor games where the killer failed to create a snowball and just say "Oh they were bad" but in games where they were able to prevent a snow-ball. "survivors are overpowered". To me the tournament showed that survivors and killers are so closely matched that at the highest levels survivors and killers can win.
First, I would disagree that Nurse is the strongest killer in the game. I feel that she lacks map mobility, she has some really powerful counter play, like jumping in a locker to avoid getting hit and then using the stun animation to gain distance. She's especially hurt by dead hard. And she is can often be countered by holding w.
I feel that this tournament has shown conclusively that in a competitive setting that Spirit is a much more consistent killer than Nurse. Now this isn't to say that Nurse is a bad killer, but she's at a similar tier to Pyramid Head and for the same reasons. Easily counters loops, strong in the 1v1. However, Spirit is just better at switching targets on a dime and has many ways that she can confuse even the best players in the world.
I'm not saying the result of this match was unfair. I'm saying what the killer had to do to get to this makes it unfair (nurse, camping/tunneling, getting a 3gen luckily, 3 gen slowdown perks)
But for seriously, where do you get the numbers that top tier play only happens in 1% of games? Do you even know how many games occur in 24 hrs? How many of those are top tiered? The point is that these examples indicate imbalances, and the game should be balanced. It's very clear that survivors have a buffer, and that those buffers can be exploited when the survivors start losing. You're arguing for those buffers to remain in place because they serve a purpose, considering that top tier play is limited. But that does not remove the fact that if someone knows how to exploit those buffers, they have the upper hand. By saying that this is ok, then for you to be rational, you would have to say it's ok for any side to have buffers. So why not give killer's buffers too? See how quickly this stops making sense?
😮 how does someone misspell balanced as "ballenced"? I just tried to misspell it a dozen times and couldn't.
"That is how in my opipion balancing should be done balance the top"..😮😯
Your "opipion"? Sweet baby Jesus do all Geordies have to fit the Geordie stereotype?
I can't keep on track with this argument with all these well written statements to work through 😧...I'm pretty stupid so I have to read things out loud and I'm making no sense when I hear myself 😢
So instead of adding your own constructive feedback you insult people grammer and spelling. Very helpful and what a great way to progress this discussion :/