"No Counter Play" LOL
Okay, I'm honestly tired of seeing this phrase when people talk about anything. It comes up a lot as an argument against Spirit or Deathslinger.
Look at the end of the day every killer and tactic has counter play. There were legit like 5 things in this game ever to not have counter play. Old Legion was one of them. Infinite loops (as in double window at cow tree with no bloodlust and no entity blocker) had no counter play. Heck even in the current game, yes, some stuff has little to no counter play. Ebony Mori. Keys.
But dear Jebus, every time someone tried to argue for a change to a killer they always bring up "no counter play". "Bro there is nothing you can do, you just lose, just D/C already". That's basically what I hear.
Spirit has counter play. Deathslinger has counter play. Now I don't like Deathslinger either, I think it's just a lame experience to get speared with no real way to fight back after that point. But that doesn't mean there is 0 counter play. Even as someone that hates Slinger I can acknowledge that there are ways to avoid getting shot. Tall wall loops work good. Dropping the pallet early generally helps. Janky movement can make it harder for the killer.
Oh yea, and hiding works. It works against Spirit too. "Hiding isn't counter play". Uh yes, it actually is. A 110 killer doesn't have the time to thoroughly search an area. If you never get found you never get caught. I've won games against many killers (Slingers and Spirits included) by just hiding. Yea, it's not exactly an exciting experience. It's boring, ESPECIALLY for killers (I've had people hide on me and it sucks), and it's a bit of a cheesey tactic but it's still a legit tactic at the end of the day. Hide near a gen, keep tapping it, force the 110 killer to search everywhere for you and give up pressure on the rest of the map. If everyone is doing this they will have to commit at some point because this is a battle of attrition and they will lose.
And I get people don't like these killers, again I hate Slinger. But come up with some original arguments and stop parroting a buzzword you heard. It's getting ridiculous.
Comments
Bro you don't get both all the time. It's PVP that was my point. You can't have your cake and eat it too. ######### hell, even Mario Party ends up not being fun for someone at the end of the day. It's just a fact of life.
I say 30 seconds because if a killer is really good those are the targeted chase times..gens crank too fast for much more..and if course hes a chaser , even clown can chase semi well..clown isnt bad due to his chase as much as hes very weak to pallets and has no map pressure..very much like slinger..difference is slinger can get you from distance and can sneak up on you..like I said..slinger only gets by because if his shot speed..I'd bet anything he'd be worse than clown without it
I literally just grabbed the three most recent games he had against Spirit. Feel free to check out his others.
And he does mindgame Spirits, by the way. Even in one of the videos I posted, for instance, he goes one way on a particular loop in Yakaoma the first time the Spirit is after him, then intentionally goes a different way at the same point since he thinks the Spirit is now conditioned to go the same way as the first time around. He does similar things with pallets and windows. Plus he's listening to the heartbeat for signs of when he needs to run. And I don't know off-hand that he does it in the links I posted, but I've also seen him for instance intentionally use the fire barrels in outdoor loops to hide the noise he makes.
My point being, of course, it's not just "random". He wins more often than not because he has a good sense of what they're doing and why and can act accordingly.
Those are killers where pre throwing actually works still very boring and needs tweaks like clown needs a flat buff and freddy just nerf his snares a bit.
Every killer has counterplay that they can never overcome no matter how skilled they are: Gen speed. If survivors spread out to separate gens and focus on doing gens even at the cost of a few hook states you will never win as killer, period.
because caleb and rin are not MEANT to be engaged in chases.
That's part of the design. Just like you have to pay MORE attention to your surroundings with Trapper or Hag or plague, just like you have to keep a distance with Clown, etc, caleb and rin are killers who by design are meant to be avoided.
Stop trying to have every match play into your 1v1 chase fetish.
People have a hard time understanding that "fun" and "boring" are highly subjective.
All killers have SOME form of counterplay
That's true but this isnt relevant to the whole point the killer isnt fun because the devs designed him poorly.
I understand that my point is that he just needs to have some counterplay anything that dont make his chases one sided.
seriously some people just need to /skill.exe
Slinger main here - He has no counterplay. Nor does PH. They really are both like Old Legion or Current Nurse - if you don't stealth, you're screwed. The only difference between Deathslinger and the others is that he has to break the pallet before he shoots you - and since he's not an m1 killer, that 1 pallet is all you get.
Edit: I should clarify, I'm not being sarcastic or anything. I started maining him because console players know how to destroy m1 killers, and he really is ridiculous in a chase.
Alright watch this then tell me what you think all tru3 did was maybe double back a few times and hope she doesnt catch on.
please stop with the "tru3 said he can outplay spirits!!!" seriously dropping pallets early to use as an initiator is dumb because a good spirit will hear what side of the pallet on using stridor its not viable against good spirits
i cant believe the retro active counterplay argument is still here ive been explaining this since spirit released your not outplaying the spirit, the spirit made a mistake a lot of people play spirit incorrectly using the power often when you should be using it in short bursts when a survivor is on the other side of the loop you simply use your power for 1-2 secs to get to the other side of the loop and get a hit if they do manage to make a guess and get it right you have your power back almost instantly and can just do it again you could guess right and ######### the spirit 5 times but the chase still lasts less than 30 secs
TLDR: you cant outplay a spirit the spirit makes a mistake and if used correctly wastes about 5 secs in chase
But if she does change up what you are doing. react, improv, try ######### to see if it works, know if it does work it probably won't work again, etc. repeat until you find something that works and that includes hiding (before getting into a chase).
Funny but 1v1 is the most fun and interactive thing in the game, the chase is what they balanced the game on. So are you gonna tell me regardless of what they built the game on they designed these killers? It's just poor design hiding is boring for both sides.
Stop insulting me for wanting to do the interactive thing in the game.
you do realize when they say counterplay they mean while already in a chase right? saying hiding is a counterplay to spirit and deathslinger is stupid because thats a counterplay to every killer. it hardly even works against a spirit with stridor. these killers are unbalanced because they end chases way too quickly. although i am pretty happy to see someone call out deathslinger for how good he his instead of saying "bUt hE hAs nO mAp pReSsUrE" like an idiot. now admittedly, deathslinger does technically have counterplay, which is dodging his gun, but that is down near impossible because is gun has literally no wind up letting you be able to instantly end chases with 2 clicks, requiring almost no skill. dropping pallets early also does nothing if ur not already injured AND affected by the deep wound status effect. a stridor spirit on the other hand, has no counterplay whatsoever in a chase. if u get injured, you're basically already dead because no matter what you do, your breathing is heard a mile away. all you can rely on is dropping a pallet early and guessing that she isnt gonna be on that side, which is not counterplay, its luck.
isn't it ALL a guessing game??? If I am against a trapper at a longwall jungle gym and he is on the opposite side of the wall isn't he "guessing" which way I'm going and aren't I doing the same??? at the end of the day the whole premise of the game is GUESSING lol.
1) I thought you said you weren't subbed to Scott's YT on Wolf's discord (unless you aren't the person I think you are).
2) Scott's opinions are just that. Opinions. IDK why people throw them around like they are facts.
I really have little to no trouble running a spirit. If shes good and catches me sooner than later so be it but i have at least 30 to 40 second chases at worst with her. There are techniques (In chase) that can be used to "counter" spirit. And people should really learn them.
The whole premise of "mindgaming" is making your opponent guess wrong.
Dude UB and DS have as much counterplay as spirit if not more. I have RARELY been screwed by that set of perks. Ahh let me down this guy who was unhooked for being cocky, leave him and hook someone else. He either WASTES HIS UB or someone gets off a gen to help and the other to save the hooked person. I find it funny how people say there is no counter to that. Yet when you play spirit and have stridor and a.good headset you hear EVERYTHING. So you can't trick them with pre drops and vaults. Dont even compare these two
well it is about the chases but it also about hiding too it like hide and seek game I know some find chases fun some don't I one that don't.
I find it fun is when I hide so good the killer just walks right pass me not seeing me,no I don't use Bloody clothes Claudette or dark clothes heck I don't even use Claudette I use yui like that matter.
some like staying out of the killer TR.
So your own experience goes. Considering many of us on the forums, the teams I sometimes run with, as well as against, have mixed results, seems par the course that we win some, lose some. Claiming 'no counterplay!' when there's obvious counterplay, doesn't do anything.
I already watched Scott's video and I disagree with his opinion. For one thing, he seems to be confusing "dodging" with "interactive counterplay" when he talks about Deathslinger. And he refers to counterplay that does exist against Deathslinger as "robotic", which I think is ironic because the counterplay he seems to want is literally just robotically sidestepping or Dead Harding when you see an attack animation. But he dismisses any notion of setting up Deathslinger in positions to maximize your chance that he misses as "guessing" and "him making a mistake and you not doing anything." But if you are using terrain for cover and correctly figuring out a pattern of movement that makes a Deathslinger player shoot too early and timing your pallet drops correctly, etc, that's not "just Deathsligner making a mistake", it's you putting Deathslinger in positions that make mistakes more likely.
His argument about Spirit is similar. "You're just relying on Spirit to make a mistake." No, you're putting Spirit in positions where mistakes are more likely. You can't see where Spirit is but you can make educated guesses about what she's doing, and you can condition her to do certain things when you do certain things. It's not random, it's a player-vs-player mental challenge. If anything that sort of back and forth is more interesting and less "robotic" than the type of "counterplay" he seems to want which is you seeing Spirit do something and then you just react to that and do the obvious countermeasure.
To be fair Scott's pretty well spoken and sometimes I agree with what he says, sometimes I don't. In this case I disagree with his definition of "boring".
On a related tangent, I keep seeing some people saying Scott thinks Deathslinger is "overpowered". That's not what he's saying, in fact in his videos he literally says he doesn't think Deathslinger is that great. What he's saying is he thinks Deathslinger is "boring" to play against in a chase because you can't literally dodge his shots. That's pretty much it - if you could see Deathslinger's shot coming beforehand and could have a split second to dodge it he'd apparently be happy with Deathslinger because he thinks that would be "interactive". It has nothing to do with game balance or how often Deathslinger wins or loses matches, it's all about him wanting to be able to dodge Deathslinger's shots.
And with Spirit it's about him wanting to be able to see what Spirit is doing and just do a countermove to that. Again, it's not about game balance per se (although he does think Spirit is really powerful, it's just not relevant to his argument), it's about him wanting to be able to see the Spirit do something a split second beforehand and do a countermove because, to him, that's "interactive."
So yeah, I obviously disagree with his opinion here. I think he's pretty much flipping on its head what I would consider "interactive". To me using muscle memory to dodge people is just reflexes or twitch gaming, it's not interesting. Things that require you to make educated guesses about what someone is about to do before they do it, that's more engaging.
Lol, he does other things besides just drop pallets early. But whatever, I get it, if he beats a Spirit then the Spirit "played badly", and if he doesn't beat a Spirit then it's proof he "can't beat a Spirit". Just ignore all the dozens of videos of games where he actually beats Spirits pretty regularly, they're meaningless I guess.
Well I dunno how to do that without ruining him..nobody else seems to either
Watching a video does not mean to be subbed.
correct.... But its still a guessing game either way. I don't see what you are getting at here.
I agree with you here. I enjoy guessing what she is doing. A lot of the time my guesses are correct. and to be completely honesty I love everything about the challenge of going against spirit.
I was just agreeing with you.
sorry for the mis conception
Just make it so you have to aim for 2 seconds before shooting lolololololol
Lol then hes worse than clown..terrible idea
You mean they table the turnes?
Exactly. Every other killer relies on survivor mistakes, nurse, spirit and DS don't.
I think thats totally fine as well. I love going against a killer that can actually dictate the chase. It makes the game more challenging. To want a killer that you can just loop and waste so much of their time is silly imo. The key to these 3 are to waste as much as you can before going down. They are strong killers but they still cant win if survivors do the objective
Hiding is the most fun and thrilling part of the game and should've been the base experience, too bad that hiding is pointless if you're the only one doing it because hiding will get your team killed if you don't take aggro for ppl on deathhook etc.
Stand over their body for 60 seconds. There's your counter play.
playing a killer and making mistakes is not the same as survivors outplaying the killer especially if they have nothing to go on like spirit or have very few choices that will both result in a hit if the killer doesnt mess up.
playing against a deathslinger with ######### aim doesnt mean you are juking him the spear moves too fast in the time it takes the spear to reach you from 20 feet away if he is aiming at your center mass it is not possible to change you position enough to avoid a hit. the result of the chase is 100% on the deathslinger if they dont aim correctly they miss if they do you get hit.
playing against a spirit that saves her power for mind games and doesnt waste it all moving from one side of the map to another during these close proximity phasing you are making bets as to where she will be and she is aware you cant move more than a few feet without giving yourself away but she can cross half the map without you knowing its a coin toss for you and for her it more like an 80/20 split in her favor with all the ways she can track you
playing against nurse she never has to guess where you are she can always teleport to where she has line of sight and use her second blink to hit you from there if they can do this effectively you lose.
obliagatory "but dead hard" all of these killers can be effectively dead harded but can reready their power 10x faster than dead hard can recharge it buys you an extra 5 seconds before you take the next hit which is not enough to win you the game
The spirit allows much more counterplay than the Deathslinger, PH has the same problem. These 2 new killers are generator rush and be very lucky in a chase. It has a boring way of playing. they require little skill and little brain. Playing hide and seek is a boring strategy, which ends with the killer camping hook. The survivors complain demanding that the killer search for them on the map below each rock.
Its as if dead hard, sprint burst or spine chill don't exist.
You basically listed for DS common sense.. Yea you have to drop pallets early against him and hope you have a tall loop at your ready if not..Janky movement’s won’t help? Because while you are going out of your way to juke his shot you think he is going for.. he is getting free zoning on you and distance. If he shoots and misses, that is not you countered him. He just missed. Spirit is a whole other discussion and she is just straight guessing/ taking a risk.
Slinger counter: make sure he doesn't have a good shot by using objects to block his shot. In other words lose Los. In a loop predrop the pallet just like against clown. Since he's only a 110 killer you can make distance. You can also use unpredictable moves so he can't land a shot.
pH counter: When looping him act like you are about to vault the window/ pallet then don't. Use unpredictable movements against him. When he misses his m2 make distance. His actual hit box for his m2 is just around the center
I have a very fixed mindset in this regard.
If there is a strategy, there is a counterplay for that strategy.
Everything has a counterplay, but maybe you never realized which was, or nobody discovered it yet.
Scott is simply wrong.
Deathslinger and Spirit have counterplay whether you like it or not, otherwise these killers would be picked with 100% pickrate in competitive or be banned. Surprise surprise that is not the case.
It's because you can genrush both.
That Slinger counterplay isn't counterplay. That's exactly what he wants you to do. 110 killers aren't as slow as everyone assumes, and he's always moving at 110 speed because quickscoping. Sure, drop that pallet - I'll just zone you, break it and shoot you because Slinger isn't a 110 m1 killer and you literally cannot react to him unless he's playing like a moron and going for long shots. Literally the most basic play there is with him.
And "unpredictable" moves are still not counterplay, it's just the only way of making his shot harder that you have. Like it or not, even if you aren't wasting time zoning yourself, it's entirely on him to miss, not you to dodge it.
Same goes for that PH "counterplay" - that's just called faking, it's a normal part of gameplay, and the reason PH is so strong is because only an absolute moron would use his ability before you vault. His entire strength relies on just picking his sword up and hitting you. You literally cannot avoid that. Fake the vault or take it, he's hitting you regardless.
ye lol its a joke ther really isnt much they can do to him without making him terrible lol
In theory there is counterplay against keys: Kill the survivors before they finish gens and slug the last 2 survivors.
In theory there is counterplay against Mori: Dont let the killer catch you at all
In theory there is icounterplay against Legion1.0: Run into a field and hope he looses you (serious suggestions at that time)
Those counterplays of Legion 1.0, Moris and keys are about as reliable as those against Deathslinger/Spirit you named. Its a mixture of luck and unreliable or even unlreasitic scenarios.
Sure you can hide against a Spirit or Slinger and hope he or she does not find you, but then we are again at the same problem: You can only HOPE she does not find you, and you have little to no impact that she wont sniff out your hiding spot. On top of it against stridor and good headset, your hiding is even more pointless.
Or long walls... first of all, i disagree that long walls are even any serious counterplay against Deathslinger. Please show me some footage of anyone beeing able to run a good Deathslinger on a 4 Wall. And next to that, those spots are totally RNG. Its like saying "Lerys is a good counterplay against Nurse, so she is fine".
I think many people hate Spirit and Slinger because even a bad player can catch a much better and more experiecend player with ease. I also think that "no counterplay" is in fact the right term, as long as there is no real counterplay to it you have impact as survivor. RNG or killer who are not good are none of that.