"No Counter Play" LOL
Okay, I'm honestly tired of seeing this phrase when people talk about anything. It comes up a lot as an argument against Spirit or Deathslinger.
Look at the end of the day every killer and tactic has counter play. There were legit like 5 things in this game ever to not have counter play. Old Legion was one of them. Infinite loops (as in double window at cow tree with no bloodlust and no entity blocker) had no counter play. Heck even in the current game, yes, some stuff has little to no counter play. Ebony Mori. Keys.
But dear Jebus, every time someone tried to argue for a change to a killer they always bring up "no counter play". "Bro there is nothing you can do, you just lose, just D/C already". That's basically what I hear.
Spirit has counter play. Deathslinger has counter play. Now I don't like Deathslinger either, I think it's just a lame experience to get speared with no real way to fight back after that point. But that doesn't mean there is 0 counter play. Even as someone that hates Slinger I can acknowledge that there are ways to avoid getting shot. Tall wall loops work good. Dropping the pallet early generally helps. Janky movement can make it harder for the killer.
Oh yea, and hiding works. It works against Spirit too. "Hiding isn't counter play". Uh yes, it actually is. A 110 killer doesn't have the time to thoroughly search an area. If you never get found you never get caught. I've won games against many killers (Slingers and Spirits included) by just hiding. Yea, it's not exactly an exciting experience. It's boring, ESPECIALLY for killers (I've had people hide on me and it sucks), and it's a bit of a cheesey tactic but it's still a legit tactic at the end of the day. Hide near a gen, keep tapping it, force the 110 killer to search everywhere for you and give up pressure on the rest of the map. If everyone is doing this they will have to commit at some point because this is a battle of attrition and they will lose.
And I get people don't like these killers, again I hate Slinger. But come up with some original arguments and stop parroting a buzzword you heard. It's getting ridiculous.
Comments
Yeeeaah
In theory you could also play so perfectly such that no survivor could ever escape you.
Oh wait...
THANK YOU! We don't often agree so I've noticed over time. But this ######### right here? The realest thing you ever wrote IMO.
Also, to reference a dead meme with another dead meme,
INB4 "BoRiNg KiLlErS"
You've never played a fighting game in your life, have you?
Predictions and reads are VG fundamentals.
Right, they actually want to be able to beat killers 1v1 in chase consistently like that's how the game is supposed to work.
+ Another 1
I'm sorry to say, this is all theory craft and imagination. Even if the best you can do against DS in a chase is try to force bad plays, that's not any different at a base level than any other killer.
You're talking about this from the killer side, but how many DS have you beat as survivor?
And the fact you play on console like me causes serious doubt that you are hitting anywhere near 90% of your shots, let alone 100.
Until I actually see a perfect DS game, I'm going to assume it's nigh impossible, and if most killers rely on survivor mistakes to work, I don't see why a killer that relies on survivor mistakes is so unfair.
The game when created wasnt revolving around chases. Looping wasnt ever supposed to be a thing. It just happened.
Hell one of the original 3 killers is based on being invisible to sneak up on people.
Go watch Zubat if you're after a perfect DS game.
And the rest just doesn't make sense. I have genuine trouble seeing the point you are trying to make. Do you think that it's fair to not have your skill taken into account because your skill isn't taken into account in another scenario? How's that fair? Or your counterplay idea - that would make sense if you weren't extending your life for only a small handful of seconds. That's not really counterplay in any meaningful sense.
I think it's a case by case basis with each killer, as it should be. Not Evey killer should be defeated by looping. That's boring.
As for what you don't understand, I don't know which part you're referring to. It's probably the most concise post I've made on here today.
My point is, having a killer who is strong in the chase is absolutely fine, I don't see why chase mechanics HAVE to inherently favor the survivor, especially when the killer is balanced with less mobility. He has no map pressure, and he can only go for one survivor at a time. Is it a bad thing that the one thing he is supposed to excel at, he does well?
As for the chase, you only ever extend your chase for a handful of seconds if the killer you're up against is good, how many times do you just have a red rank killer drop chase on you without being at a strong tile? Most will get you sooner rather than later.
You are simply looking at what you don't like about the killer, not how it works in the grand scheme of the game. Your like or dislike is personal, but like I and others have said, we don't have that same issue with facing him, I have fun trying to avoid shots against him. And to say there is nothing you can do in chase with DS is straight up BS, IMHO.
If the game wasnt a 2 hit system it would work better.
I will say spirit has more counterplay than slinger. Im a killer main, slinger is probably (when you hit your shots) the most brainless killer in the game. Spirit though? Tracking with sound is hard enough as it is, but here's the counterplay to make the spirits time even harder: when you see the husk go still, stop sprinting and walk an adjacent direction, hell even right back at the husk. If you're healthy, the spirit player will almost 100% walk right passed you or realize you disappeared, come out of phase, and realize you're 20 meters away in the opposite direction and have to chase you at 110. Thats the counterplay. One of the only killers that you as a survivor can mindgame back. I understand slinger. But spirit has some fun as hell counterplay.
Finally somebody that uses the brain here instead of whining.
I've played against enough red rank slingers & pHs and this works for me. Even when a slinger is in quickscoping range irregular movements work. It's just like saying demo has no counterplay when using shred or huntress when she's holding a hatchet. With pH there's a delay when he picks up his knife before he can swing. So you can still fake it
Yes they have counterplay. its called "do the ######### gens as fast as possible and get the hell out of here".
Counterplay in a chase? Lets solve this mystery by asking Youtube.
Where are those videos about how to run a Deathslinger? Anybody looped him for 5 gens? No? Not even a baby Slinger? The True Talent Video maybe? More a joke or clickbate then any souce that actually helps.
You find so many 5 gen loops against almost every killer, but not against Deathslinger. Or lets watch the "i outplayed Deathslinger " videos, there are some. Well.. their outplay is always he is missing easy shots.
Why are people claiming they have counterplay when those counterplays are always "he is missing". You got something better? Upload it, you will get my thumps up in a split second.
And about Scott. I never watched Scotts gameplay videos or streams to be honest, but his "real talk" series is great. He understand the game better then most here and is not biased towards one side which gives his opinion some value. You say he is wrong, but nobody so far has anything better to show and talk then "Deathslinger is missing" or other stuff that has nothing to do with the survivor actually outplaying him.
Yes sick gen rushing, the first gen took them 3 minutes and all 4 get out vs the killer who has no counterplay according to you.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/691621132?t=00h05m09sAnd another 4 ezcapes against the killer who has no counterplay. For a killer that doesn't have any counterplay, the first guy lasts almost 2mins in one chase.
Seriously? Is it somehow hard to understand (or read?) that there is a difference between escaping the game and have counterplay in a chase? Where in those videos is there any evidence of how to have counterplay against Spirit or Deathslinger... in a chase? Because they escaped? Wow, i can show you also 1000 videos about me doing that. But none provided any real counterplay in a chase against any of those.
The Legion had the exact same problem, nobody was complaining that there is no way to escape at trial, in fact he was weak, but his chase was braindead stupid with nothing you could really do as survivor but hoping he is bad. And that is the problem. Not that survivors can not escape but there is nothing effective they can do in a chase that really matters. All comes down to that the killer is playing not very well.
Read carefully now before you post the next 2 random videos where somebody escapes a killer... show me a video of someone who can counter a Deathslinger in a chase. Not by missing his shots, not by ######### up, but by serious counter the survivor achieved somehow.
So far i never did it and i never saw anybody doing it, at least not in a scenario where i was not totally counting on luck / bad play by the other side. Maybe you are the one who got something we all dont know. Surprise us.
2020 and people still don't realize uncounterable in a chase does not mean they are overpowered killers
It takes deathslinger like 5-10 frames to aim and like another 5-10 frames for the spear to travel. That's like 1/4-1/3 of a second to react. Around 100 ping that's about 1/10 second of delay from latency leaving you around 200 miliseconds to react. Consider average human reaction time about 250 miliseconds with extremely fast times being closer 200 miliseconds, it is mathmatically impossible to avoid a deathslinger spear. The only thing you can do is try to break line of sight at all times, but that is practically impossible. It's pretty much the definition of no counterplay.
Bad deathslingers are what make people think he has counterplay because the deathslinger misses their shot when the survivor jukes but it's literally just guessing, there is no cooldown or slowdown to faking shooting so you just have to guess when he'll shoot and even then a good enough aim can hit anyways. Your brain isn't a supercomputer that can analyze the situation and guess when a skilled deathslinger is going to fake or shoot with relatively high accuracy.
And even in the event you do manage to play in some way that prevents him from shooting you, it's either doing 1 of 2 things. 1) just endlessly blocking line of sight on 1 object and eating m1 hits (not effective) or 2) Throwing pallets extremely early so the deathslinger has no chance to use his power as anti looping (boring for both players)
No counterplay in this case does not mean unbeatable, a team doing their gens fast enough and using strategy 2 can easily beat a deathslinger, but it's not about win or lose. It's about how fun it is to play against him, and simple fact of the matter is that it isn't fun.
But interaction between killer and survivor is only one aspect and playing stealthy against killers that have good chase shutdown potential is one type of counter play.
Just as janky movement to draw out misses is counter play against any killer. How is it not? Why are you choosing to move erratically... to draw out misses more likely to succeed at range against a shooting/hatchet killer. Oh the slinger had good aim predicted my movements and still hit me I guess there is no counter play. Its completely ridiculous.
Janking a miss from a slinger is no different to faking a window vault for a missed hit and extended chase. If the killer predicts you are going to fake it and holds off that attack then you get hit shortly after.
Most mindgames are about who out guesses who, there is always a luck element to it. You can completely jank and out mind game spirit. The play just isn't as predictable as the typical when to moonwalk 101 textbook.
Every single one of these interactions involved prediction and guesswork, the basis of success and failure in this game.
This is called the silver bullet fallacy.
The idea that a particular tactic will ultimately be the magical counter to a problem.
You can jank, early pallet drop, play around LOS blockers, stealth out all these things will aid you in avoiding a rifle shot/hit. All are counterplay in some way to every killer. Traditional looping isn't as effective so you mix up your play-style. Not every killer is gong to be hard countered by running tiles in the same manner. That would be truly stale for game play.
Causing a slinger to miss shots by unpredictable movements is counterplay. It's like saying a huntress that holds a fully charged hatchet has no counterplay.
Exactly the counter-play to DS/UB is to try and draw it out early. This combo is most powerful in the endgame when it can carry you out the gate. Slug early and draw it out, grab an obsession to eat that DS at 5 gens still up. Then remember who used it.
It funny that people tout DS as an anti tunnel perk but one of the best counter plays to it is to quickly down the survivor again and draw it out early.
Alright sure you can technically stealth do write movement to evade slinger. Stealth is not the most interactive gameplay to do. Weird movement is pure luck sure it kinda throws off the slingers aim but a good one will shoot you regardless.
You say that running the same tiles in the same manner gets stale hut for some reason people kept coming back and I still come back and enjoy looping killers on the tiles we have.
We definitely need more to add variety but i like it alot of the playerbase does as well.
You are trying to avoid the shot before its fired not as its fired. Yes quick scoping is the most effective way to play the slinger, hence why janky movement is key in avoiding it, if you're close enough that janky movement loses you effective distance then I don't need to shoot at you when a lunge will do.
No I mean running the same tiles in the same manner can't be the silver bullet. There is an optimal way to run them and mindgaming and killer powers will shut this down, some better than others.
To cry no counter play because the optimal loop isn't the be all end end all of success is the silver bullet fallacy.
Why did they remove infinite loops, because they truely had no counter play. You could run around and around the same thing and never be hit. It was a genuine silver bullet and removed for the sake of interactive game play, as in to avoid the game becoming dull.
There are still powerful loops and if you get to them you can run the slinger like any other killer, but you'll have to be stealthy or janky to get there.
But there's no counter play. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Well all I can say is let's agree to disagree this conversation isnt getting anywhere the silver bullet fallacy makes perfect sense however there is no silver bullet to looping slinger it remains guess work. But then again there is no silver bullet to looping any killer they however arent just guess work.
This is exactly the point I try and make time and again on these forums. Even mind gaming at its best involves an educated guess. One could say the slinger faking the aim to bait out a bad juke is his most basic mindgame.
The killers with the most intuitive depth are the ones folks often scream nerf for. Spirit is a great example. A lot of the information you would base your educated guess on is removed creating the highest stakes mindgame there is. I can't just choose which direction to run around this loop based on killer facing I have to predict where she might be based on my previous interactions with her. There is little randomness in this and those who think there is don't really understand true randomness.
You missed the point, unpredictable movement has no value because the lack of cost to faking power usage. Even if you run around like a headless chicken you know what happens, he hits you with an m1 and that's assuming his aim isn't good enough to just hit you mid dodge anyways, since like I said, even if you move unpredictably, the deathslinger doesn't have to predict you. Like I said, the shot only takes like 1/3 of a second or less to fire and travel. The prediction is entirely one directional. You commented earlier that demo has the same zoning potential this is not true because when the death slinger aims he is instantly able to fire with no wait time between aiming/firing. Upon activating from the abyss with demo, you have to wait rougly 1/3-1/2 a second before left clicking in order to shred, or else you will just perform a regular attack. During this short time you also slowdown. This adds a cost to incorrect predictions and results in mindgames that are not one sided. Additionally, ANY obstacle is enough to block demo's power. A significant portion of the time, even if there as an obstacle with death slinger, he is able to walk around it while you are stuck on it and lunge to you and hit you anyways.
Edit: Huntress hatchets are a similar story to demos. After readying the hatchet there is a short delay before the hatchet can actually be thrown in addition to slower move speed while the hatchet is up. This leads to mind games and predictions that are two way.
Maybe watch the videos? Otherwise we can stop because the players did run each spirit for several minutes in a chase. When there is no counterplay how is that possible? Yeah it isn't.
They are not uncounterable in a chase and the videos show that clearly.
What does that have to do with what I said?
I really struggle with the thought that you need pointers for a one liner but okay. The part where you say "uncounterable in a chase" which they clearly are not and do not even try to argue that the killers are bad.
Do you duck and weave in first person shooters? Do you predict attacks in fighting games?
come on.
I'm just curious Scott. Do you want these killers changed? If so what can you do to either of them without destroying them completely. I play against a bunch of spirits and deathslingers as well as pyramid heads at rank one and i VERY rarely have trouble against them. Tbh Deathslinger is the one killer that destroys me most out of the three. When you say that making a spirit mess up that it isn't skill I would have to disagree. If you can make a spirit mess up its obviously your actions that leads to the killer messing up yes???? Imo that is skill. I can also agree that you never said they were overpowered but i can also understand why people are perceiving this. I just don't agree that when you force a spirit to make a mistake that it isn't skill.
As far as what to change on someone like Deathslinger, I have no idea. I just know the problems people have with him and Spirit. I don't really care personally as I mostly play killer.
But no, I disagree that if you take actions that results in the Spirit messing up that that is counterplay, only because the actions you are taking have little to no strategy behind them. Yes, you can attempt things like early pallet drops, reverse pallet drops, pallet drops then vaulting, running back into the Spirit,etc. but the fact remains all you are doing with every single one of these choices is making a random decision and hoping the Spirit doesn't hear properly.
Just because you take an action that causes an opponent to screw up does not mean its counterplay. If the action was an informed, educated decision then I would lean more towards it being counterplay. The problem is, against a good Spirit, you do not have enough time to analyze the player before you are dead, and then you get a different killer, so all of that talk of "making reads" on Spirit is completely BS because you cannot make reads on someone based on 30 seconds of chasing. You are just guessing, stop stroking your ego.
But isn't this game base don guessing what the killer/survivor is doing??? Its all a guessing game with spirit its just more of a gamble. I wouldn't say predicting something a spirit or any killer for that matter does correctly is "stroking an ego, because it does feel good to get away from a good killer. I don't see anything wrong with feeling good about that.
I like how people complaining about deathslinger and spirit when we have OP Bubba, that is the most easiest PTP killer. Especially with his last buff update. Deathslinger has a 4.4 movement speed and all he needs to do it's to SHOT YOU RIGHT IN THE FACE. That you can do easily with dodging or using dead-hard
Many killers need to actively rely on survivors to make mistakes and get mindgamed/mindgame themselves. Most "no counterplay" arguments boil down to the killer actually being able to take control of the chase.
Its why people thought nurse had no counterplay. Its why people thought billy had no counterplay. Its why people thought clown had no counterplay (lmao.) It happens every time a killer is strong at chases. Most survivor mains have it in their head that they should be in control of chases, due to how often they're actually allowed to be.
That said, mindgames are 100% a counterplay, and both killers in question of the topic can be mindgamed. Counterplay does not mean "free 100% success escape from chase," hell sometimes even just wasting the killer's time at an extra 2-3 loops is a tremendous blow to their map pressure, which can be a LOT more important.
Saying you are predicting someone when you have no idea who they are or how they play is yes, stroking your ego. All players are not the same.
"Yes, you can attempt things like early pallet drops, reverse pallet drops, pallet drops then vaulting, running back into the Spirit,etc. but the fact remains all you are doing with every single one of these choices is making a random decision and hoping the Spirit doesn't hear properly."
It's not a random decision though.
Firstly, humans are animals of habit. No matter how hard you try, there will always be patterns. It is impossible for someone to play a video game randomly.
Secondly randomly implies you do literally anything. No you have a set of options available. Like if it were random, a survivor will stop running, put down their item, walk left for 3 seconds, then crouch for 5, then run while looking up. That's random. What people do in a chase is not random.
So at the end of the day, you aren't just doing random things and hoping she messes up. A good player would try to read what she is going to do based on the options available to her (because she's not just going to do random ######### either). So if you are sprinting at a window, it is 50/50 that you are going to vault it. She has to win that 50/50 to get you. If it's a good window, then even if she predicts you make it she shouldn't be able to go around the window and still catch up. Once you see her end phase then you just hold forward and run tiles for 10-15 seconds and do it again. Make her lose enough of those engagements and she will spend too much time chasing her. YOU EVEN SAY THIS IN ONE OF YOUR VIDEOS. I would go look for it but I'm insanely lazy right now, but it was a game where you were Spirit on Wretched Shop IIRC. At one point someone leads you on a chase to the map building I think and you let them go saying "too many 50/50's, it's a time sink to chase this person" BOOM that is exactly what you need to do to counter Spirit. Granted you didn't have Stridor (which BTW I don't think helps as much as people claim, I main Spirit with Stridor for a long time and it's great but unless they have Iron Will it can be hard to pinpoint their locations from sounds alone because they are so loud, also sounds are always ######### so they are just too unreliable IMO), and also you didn't chase (which is a smart move as killer, a lesser killer would take that chase and probably lose because of it), but the point remains.
Like I get it. You are a killer main. One of the best out there. When I play Spirit, like 95% of survivors go full potato. I'm sure for you it feels like more, but that's not because the Spirit is OP is because most people don't truly understand what to do against her, so they die really fast. For you it might seem like she has no counterplay, but the truth is probably more that there are very very few survivors that could actually run from you as a normal killer, and even fewer that can run from you as Spirit.
To take another example, though maybe somewhat the opposite, Jigglypuff in Smash Melee. Now she is supposed to be one of the best characters in the game. Top 3 ranked among the best, some players even put her at 1 above Fox (which is true LOLs but I digress). Thing is, you don't see a lot of Puffs in high level play. There are literally like 2 Puffs that play at the highest level. Hungrybox and I don't even know who else (maybe 1 then?). Why? Because she is so INSANELY hard to play at that level that most players get bodied and change characters long before they get to that point. Hungrybox is literally the only guy that shows the true potential of Puff.
In the same kind of way Spirit is like the opposite of Puff. Instead of being really hard to play as at high levels, she is really hard to play against. It leads to the same kind of result. In Melee, most players outside the pros would say Puff isn't that good. In DBD, most players would say Spirit is too good. But it's not that she's too good, it's more that most people just suck playing against her.
I've been run as Spirit with Stridor by very good survivors that knew what I was doing. They knew how to safely run from loop to loop such that I'm forced to either phase at the loop and likely lose them on the way to the next loop, or waste my power chasing to the next loop then get looped for 15s as a 110 killer. I've done it myself too to many Spirit players. It can be done.
The reason I make this thread is because "no counterplay" is a meme at this point. She has counterplay. Yet every time someone gives an example it's always "oh that's not actual counterplay" or "Spirit bad" or "you got lucky that wasn't skill"... sorry if you can consistently run from Spirit, any Spirit, then it wasn't luck. And even the best players in the world ######### up from time to time. I remember seeing a match of Tokido's Akuma in SF4, he ######### up a DP input and did fireball and got bodied for it. You drive your whole "no counterplay" on the assumption the Spirit player plays perfectly and is infallible. No people ######### up. A lot. The thing is, how much you get punished is dependent on how good the other players are. If they suck, which again most suck against Spirit and most survivors in general are just flat out bad at the game, yea it will seem like you can play as sloppy as you want and still win convincingly as Spirit. But then get a group of survivors that each know how to run from Spirit, AND they are generally good survivors, it becomes a totally different game. One you can easily lose for a simple mistake, and one where you will have to consistently outplay them in a chase.
I just don't buy into this concept at all. I've been around competitive gaming for like 20 years at this point. If something TRULY has no counterplay then that's all the game would be. But I don't see nothing but Spirit, and when I do see Spirit she doesn't always get a 4k. IDK what her most recent stats are, but she still doesn't have a 100% kill ratio. As much as you want to say "when I say a killer has no counterplay it does not mean they are overpowered" that is ultimately what that statement means, because if they TRULY had no counterplay then they would be overpowered and would be winning when they shouldn't. Old Legion was like this because all he had to do was hit you twice in Frenzy then follow you and you go down. No mind games. No running tiles. No looping. Literally nothing, you just go down. That I think you can legit say has no counterplay as there is actually no way for you to escape this situation. But Spirit is not so cut and dry. You can use tactics to get her to mess up. You can run tiles. You can loop a little bit if she can't use her power (or chooses not to). There are things you can do to win in a chase. It might not be as significant a thing to help you win as say, V Wraith where you can just safely run loops the whole time, but the counter play is there. Again, I said this earlier IDK if you read, but if she is super strong in a chase and mind games, why are you trying to beat her at that game? Really what's wrong with hiding from her? It's boring? So the ######### what. Sometimes winning and having fun aren't the same thing. Sometimes if you want to have fun, it means you probably won't win, and sometimes if you want to win then what you are about to do won't be much fun. Going back to Melee, just go watch Hungrybox in finals. Tell me how exciting the gameplay is to watch. No ######### that, tell me how much fun you would have playing like him. Protip, it's not fun, but it wins Evo.
Sorry I know that's a lot of text but I just really can't take this BS anymore. You of all people need to avoid these kinds of buzzwords. You had an entire video about "don't call it gen rush" but then freely use other buzzwords/phrases like "no counterplay". It's getting ridiculous.
The fact you can't even really offer a solution to Deathslinger and Spirit suggest they might not have as little counter play as you claim. I mean, we were easily able to find solutions to old Legion. Now Legion is in a good spot (though maybe could use more love in the add-ons but I digress again). But we can't do that same for Slinger/Spirit, IDK that says to me the whole premise of their powers having no counterplay just seems flawed. Like you know what happened when Bayo came out in Smash 4? EVERYONE PLAYED HER. Because she actually had no counterplay. Spirit/Slinger are not used in such high amounts nor kill at such high rates that you can fairly say they have no counterplay. Frustrating counterplay might be a thing, yes, as it can be frustrating to play against Hungrybox (some people pop off instead of playing out the lame), but no counterplay... no.
Sorry again for the wall of text. Hope it all makes sense. I have mad respect for you, just man, you gotta realize when YOU say something the parrots all come out and none of them really provide the background that you do. They just repeat ad nauseam and don't get what they are saying. Just this really smart guy who is good at the game said it, so now they say it. It's getting unbearable.
Ok so like... when you start a game and you see Nurse, what are you going to think?
BBQ
Nurse's
Infectious
Shadowborn
Ruin
Corrupt
Omega blinks
Camp
Tunnel
Slug
I mean that's all the basic Nurse's tactics right there (obv there are more but these make up like 95% of all Nurses you will ever play). The ones that WIN anyway. I could literally get put against any Nurse on the planet, and as long as I acknowledge all the winning tactics she could employ at any given moment then I can counter play her without ever getting chased by her. Some details can only be found in a chase yes, but you can easily adjust your strategy just to account for the potential winning strategies the other player uses.
I used the word "winning strategies" because if she does a losing strategy it's like, who the ######### cares. She just loses then.
Therefore it is 100% possible to already know what to do against a player you never actually played against before. It's not like the Nurse is going to big brain 400 IQ a new way to play Nurse. It's the same #########, different day.
Guessing isn't counterplay. And that goes for both of the killers.
All Killers can be countered, even without perks. It's learning their skill sets. If I survive, and have evaded them, they are counterable to me and anyone else.
It's best to evaluate your owns skills, before assuming killers are uncounterable.
Forcing people to have to guess very much is counterplay. Removing safety is a pretty important part of competitive strategy in pretty much any game, going all the way back to chess/shogi/etc. Counterplay doesn't mean you automatically win a situation, it means you have a chance for your input to determine the outcome, as opposed to be being trapped in a losing scenario. There are varying degrees of strength to counterplay, but that doesn't mean scenarios that do not directly favor you have zero counterplay.
Being stuck on phase 2 of the hook is a scenario that has no counterplay. You can only mash until you get saved, or die. Being on stage 1 does have counterplay, because you have the possibility to 4%. Its not strong counterplay, and is often far more risky than it is worth, but it exists compared to Phase 2. There are even perks that can strengthen that counterplay, like deliverance. But at the end of the day, you have the potential to directly impact the situation positively for yourself.
The argument shouldn't be about whether the counterplay exists, it should be about how strong or weak the counterplay is.
>Infinite loops (as in double window at cow tree with no bloodlust and no entity blocker) had no counter play.
Even infinite loops had either Nurse (at some point) or Trapper as counterplay. Yeah, #########, but it sometimes worked.
@thesuicidefox
I think it is also crucial to define the term "counterplay" for any discussion around that. Because it can mean a lot of things and people often define it different. They might even think the same way, but just because of definition, they dont agree.
Holding W and run in a straight line is technically counterplay, because it prolonges chasetime. But we dont call this counterplay, right?
Counterplay as survivor is when he has options that will safe him, when he plays correct.
Let us for a second talk about the Nurse example. There are many people who say that counterplay against Nurse is to break LOS. Is that true? Actually not really, it is basicly our hold W example, since there is nothing that hinders Nurse to blink at your location no matter what you try and what you do. You can guess where she is blinking, but it is nothing more then a guess, no matter how well you analise patterns. It might work, it might not work. So LOS is per definition no counterplay.
Would you agree with that?
People please like bomb this comment.
That's arguing semantics at this point. Of course every killer has some form of counterplay. The problem is with Spirit its so ineffective it may as well not be.