THIS is the problem with gen speeds and early game.
Early game doesn't exist and we have another great example of this that can't be refuted by "but they played badly" or "the killer's perks suck"
Take a look at this recent video from true:
Movement control in the match starts at about 5 seconds, so every timestamp is 5 seconds higher than the actual time in the game.
The match starts and he immediately runs to the other side of the map where the survivors likely are.
At 26 seconds in the video, he hears a gen being worked on
At 28 seconds, he spots the scratch marks
At 30 seconds he spots the survivor.
At 34 seconds, he makes a bad read, but the survivor plays badly and throws the pallet anyway.
At 37 seconds, he breaks the pallet, while the survivor runs to the harvester.
At 50 seconds, he does harvester tech, and lands a hit. The survivor holds w.
At 1 minute, 10 seconds, he catches up to the survivor and starts a chase.
At 1 minute, 15 seconds, he successfully mindgames the survivor and tries to bait the dead hard, but it doesn't come
At 1 minute, 18 seconds, he downs the survivor.
At 1 minute, 22 seconds, he picks up the survivor.
At 1 minute, 28 seconds, 1 gen pops.
At 1 minute, 32 seconds, he hooks the survivor, he runs over to the nearby gen that was completed and another in the field.
At 1 minute, 39 seconds, a second gen pops.
At 1 minute, 43 seconds, a third gen pops.
This goes with the thing i have been saying for months now about this game's problem with early game. The math doesn't add up.
21 seconds to find the first survivor and start a chase
24 seconds to land the first hit after making a 1 bad read and breaking a pallet.
20 seconds to catch up to the survivor to start a second chase.
8 seconds on a successful read to down the survivor.
4 seconds for attack cooldown and to pickup survivor.
10 seconds to hook a survivor.
21 + 24 + 20 + 8 + 4 + 10 = 87 seconds. Enough time for 3 gens if all the survivors hopped on a gen as soon as the match started.
This was not played badly. True played very well.
He found the first survivor almost as early as he possibly could have at the second gen he checked.
He made one bad read for the first chase that only added a few seconds since the survivor threw the pallet anyway (if the survivor played well they could have easily extended the chase an extra 15-20 seconds before using the pallet).
He made one great read for the second on that made the chase end in a couple of seconds.
At this point, the game goes downhill from here. True holds his own because he has like 5k hours in this game so of course he is going to do well, but most of the survivors end up escaping regardless.
EDIT: 07/27/2020
True posted a new video where he plays a game. (yes he gets a 4k, again that isn't the point, besides one of the survivors just immediately gave up anyway). He analyzes the gameplay and talks about the time it takes to do these things and is exactly right about how long it takes to do things.
Comments
1 survivor is 25% in a trial so everything below 75% is still within the average of 2 kills per trial.
Close to 75% is 3 kills. Do the devs want to advertise a game where their only hope is the hatch?
The game is balanced to give killers a slim chance of winning. Some of the great players bypass this. They want to keep survivors - the 80% happy because that is what brings in the money. Money and greed has brought us this imbalanced game state that is a joke.
"close to 75%" is not 3 kills. It's still an average of 2 kills as we're talking about players so rounding up is not correct. It's still a 2k average with a high tendency for a 3k. There's not "half a survivor" afterall.
Also no killer even had a 75% kill rate (at least not across ALL ranks which is more relevant than only red ranks when talking about advertising a game). Even on red ranks only Freddy, Spirit and Hillbilly were either at or above 75%. That's literally only 3 killers out of 20 and one of them just got nerfed.
On top of that the kill rates themselves aren't even relevant anymore as they were recorded BEFORE THE RUIN CHANGE.
And even when they were released the devs themselves told everyone to take the stats with a grain of salt as they included afk survivors, survivors that suicided on hooks, disconnects etc.
Yet people are still using these (outdated) stats from 2019. Unbelieveable.
maybe add another gen for them to do power the gates i mean there 4 survivors only have to do 5 gens but if they had to do 6 gen still may not change anything.
Ruin was changed, maps are considerably smaller, strong loops eradicated, and lots of deadzones added to the maps. This might be enough to push the killrates even higher. If I remember correctly, Freddy had a higher killrate than Billy so why wasn't Freddy nerfed? He is bringing home the bacon. AFKs, suicides, and disconnects are the most important stat. I bet it is through the roof with Freddy. I almost never saw anyone DC against Billy.
Im pretty sure they said they dont count disconnects in their stats.
Not sure about afk survivors but thats balanced out by all the deranking afk wraiths or killers that give hatch or killers that farm and let everyone go
We can only guess at this point as many things have been changed on both sides affecting the pace of trials (i.e. Ruin) AND chases (i.e. deadzones). It's a pity the devs are not going to post more recent stats.
I didn't mean the disconnecters themselves but the 4ks that were the result of people disconnecting during a match. I remember there was a time where people would dc at 5 gens because they wanted to derank leaving me with 2 other randoms with 5 gens so it was pretty much a free win for the killer anyways.
So killers are not allowed to make one mistake... or rather, they shouldn't be able to come back from one mistake? And survivors are allowed to make many, many mistakes? That is... that is just not fair. There should be a chance for recovery if you play strategically. Survivors should, and killers should. But survivors at the moment are just given way too many second chances.
New billy won't be able to make the same kind of comeback billy now is capable of.
He had 1 chase where the survivor got to 1 pallet and then the second hit was baited so they didn't get to it. How is that garbage?
I already addressed that in 2 posts i made:
The amount of time he spent going after that guy was also partially patrolling because he was near gens, on top of that the total time spent was 28 seconds. It would have likely taken him another 15 seconds alone just to abandon and find a different survivor to chase. Which means instead of a hook he would have gotten 2 survivors injured, 2 gens completed, and 1 gen nearly complete (>90%). Not much of a difference.
The guy he was chasing also had a medkit, so if he left him alone he would have spent ~15 seconds healing himself, wasting about 40 seconds of his time to gain 15. So likely he would have abandoned chase, found another guy on a gen, injured them in the same time he took to down the first and would end up with 1 injured, 1 freshly healed, 2 gens gone, and one at 90%. So no, abandoning that chase would have been the mistake.
The guy he was chasing would have started healing himself, he would have found a guy working on a gen that was almost done, probably around 80-90%. He would have likely injured that guy, and then those other 2 gens would have popped.
So he would have.
1 Injured survivor
1 Freshly healed
2 gens done
1 gen at 90%
I don't see how that is a better situation then
1 survivor on hook
3 gens done.
Also, if you are going to legitimately think that killers should just hit a survivor and let them go because they can hold w, this game has even more problems than i thought.
thinking most of the AFKs, suicides, and disconnects are the most from playing doctor.
They said they are adding an early game mechanic soon similar to EGC, so that should make thing more bearable I guess.
The game tends to halt at two gens usually. Once the killer gets the ball rolling, at least three people are on first hook, usually at least one is on death hook, and probably in a chase. Once one person dies(usually at two gens left, sometimes three, sometimes one), the game basically halts. You often end up with a constant rotation of one person being on hook, the other saving them, and a third being chased.
Usually. I find most of my matches end up that way, even if there's a rushed feeling. Often times it's rushed because everyone did three generators that were close together, leaving the last four pretty close together.
Killers shouldn't lose 3 gens in the first chase, yes the game does slow down a bit, but not nearly enough against organized teams at high ranks. Even so, it would be better for both sides if they evened it out a bit more and slowed the game down a bit in the early game, but sped it up in the later part of the game.
@Reinami don't go listing the hypothetical assumptions of how the game would have gone. That does nothing.
You never hard commit to the first survivor you see when they just run from one side of the map to the other. They are wasting their own time doing that, and ultimately yours if you follow them all that way. Who cares if they spend 16 seconds healing, you have to apply pressure to multiple survivors at the start of the match.
Ignoring the fact he had Surge, so logic would dictate he aim to keep chases near active gens so he can have passive regression when he gets a down nearby. Then he can carry them to an area not near an active gen so they have to waste their time going somewhere unimportant. (See, it's easy to describe a hypothetical situation)
Face it, you cannot say a killer played the match well when they have minimal pressure and made mistakes.
This game is all about time management, so, as killer, you need to know where your focus is most needed at what times. If you chase a good looper and you aim for strong pallet breaks and a hit then leave them alone. Same applies for W-key gamers; if they are dragging you around and all you'te doing is track them from 20m+ then surely you just leave them to go find someone else and come back to them when they're out positioned or trapped in an area they cannot just run from.
Minimal pressure in 1 minute 50 seconds? Again a killer would need to put up 7 hooks in that amount of time to keep up. More than half your objective should not be complete especially when all you did was hold m1 or w.
Thank you for writing this down. This is a crystal clear depiction of a very obvious issue. People who accuse him of doing a mistake - which is questionable btw - close their eyes to the fact that one single individual mistake doesn't change a thing about the general issue. It's like a person who fights for something lines up 100 arguments, of which 99 are totally reasonable and only 1 is maybe a little flawed... and people will go crazy over that one argument and take it as a reason why that person can't be right in what they're saying.
@teamdehn 1min 50secs of doing nothing of impact to 4 survivors? Yeah, a killer should be doing better than that. Jeez, are players at this game so bad and warped by the statements of egotistical streamers whom cannot admit when they played badly, that they try and blame gen speed for their own lack of skill at pressuring? Bloody hell...
Lol there is nothing to argue about here the dev's have acknowledged it's a problem and are adding a slow down.
@teamdehn you wonder why these posts are still so common then?
I honestly just see that potential change as the Devs feeling the peer pressure.
That's silly. He played it relatively well the first chase. Even if you shave 15-20 seconds off it, he still loses all 3 gens because they would get finished before he can travel to them anyways.
"Just go find another survivor" is a bad argument. It's probably another 20-30 seconds to maybe find someone else. The dwight had a medkit, and could probably heal himself up within ~10 seconds depending on what kind it is.
And who is to say the other survivors he potentially found would not do the exact same thing. At higher ranks the new chase could start off with the survivor sprint bursting off the gen, or the gen he visits has someone playing immersed and he loses 2+ gens without even getting a down. Committing was the right call on a low mobility killer like PH.
This game is average representation of what games should be like. Killer loses early game but gets few hooks, killer keeps pressure, if he triumphs, he kills one person, than cleans up the game unless he makes a mistake. Tru3 made an error and didn't manage to kill anyone early. He got a kill at like 11 minutes and that is just too late for killer. Its kinda weird how your average solo queue game does not have 3 generator pop on first chase, you would think it would be more common but it usually isn't the case as there is lack of coordinate and bunch of survivors are that pretty bad at looping so there is that.
@DaKnight you do realise that the common survivor spawn is 3 survivors together and 1 by themself? So to say it would take as long as you said to find someone else is laughable. And then on top of that, if they all held W then they would overlap an area and bring the killer towards an area occupied by teammates.
You seriously cannot think being borderline afk by hard focusing 1 survivor across the map is acceptable play by a killer.
If you do not pressure multiple survivors in 1min50sec then how in the hell can you be surprised when 3 gens pop. That is terrible, absolutely terrible killer gameplay
You forgot Trapper lol. When you play Trapper you expect to have 2-3 gens remaining by the time you finish your set up.
Seemingly you lack the experience to argue about this kind of thing the optimal play was build pressure through getting a hook to try and pull survivors away from gens but having them spawn scattered on 4 different gens is really strong for the survivors and if they stick to those early gens the game can be lost then and there especially with the weaker killers in the game they might not have had any comeback at all. Also kinda hard to get the survivors who won't make any distance with a 32 meter terror radius.
I'll never understand why people take youtubers as the best killers/survivors around and want to balance the game around THEIR experience.
Probably because those youtubers have thousands of hours played and are easily the most experienced players in this game?
Who has more evidence to backup their situation? The guy with 100 hours, or the one with 5000 hours?
Early game definitely needs some help. If all survivors start separately with a gen in front of them, it's 3 gens down in one chase. Corrupt would have been golden there.
Does the "average" player plays dbd as a job and have around 5000 hours though?
Get a clue.
But isn't that a problem? I mean, if you need a DLC perk to be able to compete in most games...that is not a good design I would say.
I have the Plague, but I don't have corrupt in every single killer yet, so for example imagine I want to play Trapper but I don't have corrupt on him...I literally can't play trapper.
Yeah of course there are some perks that help killer on gens but that doesn't mean that gen speed is not a problem, bc actually it is. Yeah you can still 4k but that only means you played really well. Killer sided right now is unable to make a single mistake because you choose the wrong chase and the game is gone. Survivor side they have plenty of 2nd chance perks so mistakes are welcome.
I already posted the solution that is the only way to fix gen speed. Let me know what you think about it.
A killer can't tunnel four survivors at once, only one.
Whilst tunneling or camping one survivor 3 gens get completed, 3/5 or the objective where as one tunneled/camped survivor isn't even actually 1/4 of the killers objective! They are not comparable.
Tunneling and Camping realistically favours the survivors. Yeah sucks for one but ensures the killer is in one area of the map so the rest can gen rush in safety and there is no guarantee that you will kill the survivor they have one hook.
This is also a bit of a problem for setup killers. I love trap based killers like Trapper and Hag and the first few seconds i need to spend setting up traps at loops/choke points , pallets etc.
I can only do this for like 10 seconds and even then as trapper, if RNG screws with me and spawns no traps near me, i cant get much done.
I also haven't bought Plague so i don't yet have corrupt intervention so my best alternative is Ruin. They need like a early game thing were all the gens are blocked for like 30 seconds.
If you are older than 16 and still has such immaturity I pity you.
So again, you want survivors to hold M1 for longer. That's not going to solve the problem.
How is it immature to not be interested in a streamer? It's their opinion.
All I see is him not even trying to stop those gens from being popped had nothing to do with gen speeds and all to committing too long to the chase, the map, and not protecting the gens
80% of the killers are bad at gen pressure, even more on the big maps and indoor, one of the four remaining killers is completly garbage (billy). So you have basically 3 killers that can pressure gens, where one needs a tremendously amount of practice to be good with (nurse), leaving two (spirit and freddy) you can play if you want a high success rate.
I mean, this guy played the game how long? 5k hours+? How should a casual player have a chance with those killers? Nice job.
Yeah. One mistake. How many mistakes can survivors make and have no real consequences for?
i geuss you missed the part where i said still may not change anything,but something need to be done.
how many mistakes can survivors make A LOT
this is hilarious to me the killer CANT MAKE NOT EVEN ONE MISTAKE, but survivors damn those survivors can mess up the entire game and still win is kind of stupid dont you think? this needs to be adressed
These arguments of high rank group play is so niche though. Like out of the hundreds of players in red ranks, so few of them are groups. I get it, it sucks, but it's like me complaining about getting mori'd almost every game for a couple days. I'm just unlucky with the matchmaking. It's anecdotal at best.
The argument that the potential of a group doing this is real, but the reality of it is that it's not common, not fun to play this kind of style for more than a passing moment, as a gag or just to feel "pro." It's just not fun in general, which is why the vast majority of players don't use these playstyles, and if they play as a four person group, it's usually just to mess around, play meme builds, etc.
This forum seems to give off the impression that all survivors, duos, trios, four person groups, are all trying to sweat the P3 blood off their clothes as they abuse every mechanic in the game to beat them. When the reality is that the player you couldn't catch that one game probably got the crap beat out of them the last game, and might have that same experience the next. It's not a consistent experience for players. Streamer highlights and YouTube videos only show the best three games they had but in reality they probably played several before, several in between, and several after, all which didn't make the cut.
Freddy is the literal defention of boring af imo
That is the definition of Pay to Win. Or Grind to win, if one wants to really categorize it.
Yeah.. Never chase the dude who plays for distance at the start of a match. Takes too long.
Billy is gonna be dead after his Nerf yes. But the Nurse is not dead. She is no fun to play anymore and is really buggy since her nerf. But she is still the strongest killer in the game.
I mean if mistakes should lose you the game, getting hooked once should be death. Don't like it, don't get hooked.
But since it's one team (killer) vs. another team (survivors) then the entire survivor team should instantly lose if anyone is hooked.
See how unbelievably unreasonable and ridiculous this sounds?
This dude has thousands of hours in the game and he's being critiqued for "wasting" a few seconds. How the [BAD WORD] is anyone that isn't a goddamn basement-dwelling neckbeard supposed to stand a chance if we need to be on this insane level to pressure gens in a few minutes? Not only that, but it takes time to travel to a gen, and you better hope you're going in the direction of a correct gen.
And that's all assuming the survivors are both predictable and easy to deal with.
There's an insane amount of pressure to do everything absolutely perfectly while the survivors basically sit still and M1 in place while hoping their friend can keep your attention for 15 more seconds. And for what? If you never commit to a chase, you're not getting kills. Yes, there's strategy and there's a time and place for when you do what, but expecting absolutely pitch-perfect gameplay in the first 2 minutes of a match or the other team auto-completes over half of their victory condition is patently absurd.