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Played today with 2 less experienced people. They got tunneled out every single round. It was so much fun, they could not wait to press the uninstall button. Both of them.
BHVR, people are sick of tunneling and overpowered killers. I can barley convince anybody to play your game for longer then an hour.
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@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677191#Comment_3677191
I wonder what he thought of my build, very sweaty lol
Doubt they even check anything besides the death symbol next to your name.
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You got tunneled out by a baby Billy who cant wait to find himself in higher MMR. Once there, he will come to the forum and complain how unfair survivor is. Nothing unusual tbh.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677105#Comment_3677105
Her anti loop is basically near worthless. I’m not asking for anywhere close to deathslinger levels, just viable at loops you couldn’t just go for an m1. I would’ve given her C tier for old Pig, now I’d give her D tier.
I did try stacking all those addons to try and push the most out of her ambush, still bad. You can leave all the loops you did before as soon as she crouches. Her crouch/in touch wasn’t improved enough to prevent then. The ambush also isn’t fast enough to get hits you weren’t getting before in most scenarios. It’s better yes, but taking some that doesn’t work and making it better can still have it not working, which is basically where I see the ambush at.
I understand people don’t want any pressure on boxes, I get that. However people need to understand that is the ONLY thing making her good whatsoever. Playing her without doing that she is worthless even with this ambush.
Why is she weaker? Box auras are the only nerf to her and i could not care less.
They leave the loop unpunished? Without addons, crouching Pig is now almost the same speed as a survivor running speed. 3.8m/s if i am not mistaken. With brown addon, you are the same speed or even faster, i am not 100% sure tho. And not to mention that you can simply use her power when they do so.
No, what makes her good is not pressure on boxes but survivor wasting their time on them. Why would i even check boxes when i can hunt a survivor down while one is on the hook and the other is on the way to unhook? I have them exactly where i want them to be.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677092#Comment_3677092
Her chase is bad, any pre drop that didn’t work before still doesn’t work now, hardly any loop has changed. If you’re getting hit by the charge there it was already a weak loop. Leaving the loop absolutely does work now nearly just as good as it did before.
Not saying she is S-Tier now in chase but significantly better. And as the killer with arguably the best built in slowdown (maybe tie with Pinhead), she better should not have Slinger level of chase power.
Have you tried out Last Will and Workshop addon? They are working very well. Her crouch speed is also significantly faster, helps a lot at mid hight loops.
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As it was already clear from PTB, Pig is now pretty solid in chase.
In fact, there is little outside predroping most pallets now. Leaving the loop is often no option and looping is also deadly.
People who cried most likely have not tried her out.
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@Shuma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676995#Comment_3676995
Your calculations are incorrect.
Take your example of Unknown.
Survivors have 16.77 4es and 14.19 3es. Add those together for a total of 30.96.
killers have 35.46 4ks and 20.67 3ks for a total of 56.13.
You then both of those numbers together for a total of 87.09. You get the killer win rate by dividing 56.13/87.09. The win rate for killer is 64.45%.
for the survivor team, you divide 30.96/87.09 for a survivor team win rate of 35.54.
You need to remember that draws aren’t counted so you don’t use the 12.91% in the calculation.
These are not my calculations, these are statistics from real examples.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676682#Comment_3676682
That's fair, and I'm happy to agree to disagree.
The one thing I will state, is that there are VERY few builds that a Killer can realistically get away with that don't involve at least 1 slowdown perk, even if they are not playing in a serious and sweaty lobby. If you don't have a slowdown perk, you have to really play really serious and dirty to not get completely steam rolled.
My personal take is if all players take maximum meta, it's pretty even. The problem is, survivors have 4 times the chance to not be playing full meta against a killer who is, and generally I think it's fair to say, the Killer wins when survivors make mistakes, and there are 4 players worth of mistakes that can be made... but a team that is on it, running strong perks, is VERY hard to beat if you aren't (and a lot of the time even if you are) bringing the best perks you can bring.
Y'know... outside of God Nurses and Blights. :D
Agree. I find myself running almost always the same builds with here and there one perk different. To be fair, Survivor builds are not the most exciting either but i feel like while not having strong builds, i have at least more build combos that can have the potential to be fun or at least varied.
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This might not be a real discussion but rather the one side trying to instruct the other
Lets go 🙄
Step 1: Understand that it is not about "winrate" but rather win/loss ratio. It may sound aweful when there is only 40% winrate, but it is perfectly fine, when lossrate is 40% and drawrate is 20%. Thats ballanced.
Step 2: There is a draw for killer. That part is always the most confusing to me, that some people somehow dont get this. The killer draw or tie is 2K. 0-1k = loss, 2k = draw, 3-4k = win. If you think a 2K is not a draw, then this is your personal take on how you define a win or draw and has nothing to do with the topic really. Its then more for "2K feels like a loss/win" topic.
Step 3: Survivor dont play in a team, they play individually. They may (or may not) have the same goal of escaping, but if teammates escape or not is not relevant for their own statistical win/loss ratio. Neither in end outcome, BP, PIP or MMR. While in other games like CS you win or loose with your team, in DBD you simply dont.
50% killrate is in fact not 50% winrate, because of the nature of 4 survivors and 5 different outcome.
Thank you NL for helping out on the illustration. We pick ANY killer of any time with a certaint winrate. There is almost never any difference, so this is not a "special example"
60% killrate translates into a very unballanced Win/Loss ratio. The killer wins 56% of the time and only looses 30%. Survivor simply loose 60% and only win 40%. Individually of course (Step 3).
50% killrate is an almost ballanced Win/Loss ratio. The killer wins 41% of the time and looses 43%. Survivor win 50% and loose 50%. The outcome is ballanced.
The only question is: Why are they doing it? And the answer is clear: Killers are DBD figureheads, and they are supposed to be threats. At least this is the reason. If i think this is good or not has nothing to do with the discussion here, so i leave it be.
Questions/Objections? Just shoot.
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@Xernoton said:
4 slowdowns aren't ok, info is not ok, STBFL was nerfed, NOED is not ok... What perks do you propose killers run instead?
Every killer should run the perks they are confortable with. Nobody is seriously blaming the players for using this and that perk. They are in the game for a reason. It is more about highlighting that killers have a very strong set of perks these days and some of them are a little bit to powerful for the average rounds.
While personally i dont think we should brainafk nerf all kinds of perks into the ground, a few suggestions for UW are valid. It simply does a little bit to much for little effort. The effect works basically across the map, is perfectly paired with other good perks like DMS and makes stealth playstyle very hard to pull off.
Last but not least, UW not only has very powerful effects, it has also the threat of existence. Some survivors even use the almost useless Calm Spirit to counter something that is often not even in play. Therefore, a slot waisted for nothing. Of course we could say the same with DS or Unbreakable, but here it is the killers choice if those perks are relevant. Against UW, there is realisticly only Calm that helps out.
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@The_Krapper said:
If anyone has a problem with adrenaline as a killer it's because they aren't good to begin with, worst case scenario 4 survivors are running it and you as a killer still had the whole damn game to do your job 5 whole gens , this handholdling is getting crazy at some point people need to just be told they aren't good and the changes aren't necessary instead of folding to a bunch of whiny babies who are mad they aren't the best this game has to offer
Agree that Adrenaline should stay untouched.
Disagree on the "get good" argument. We have now MMR, if anything, MMR should be reworked. We cant tell people to get good, they are already placed at their MMR spot playing against other people who should be on the same level of skill.
If the perk would be problematic on all kind of MMRs, then sure, Adren would need a nerf, but i dont think it is.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676635#Comment_3676635
a draw is when neither side complete their objective. survivor only have one objective. power exit gates by completing all 5 generators and escape. Killers only have one objective. kill as many survivors as possible. for me, I consider winning as killer if i get 3 or 4 kills. conversely, everything else is a loss for me as killer.
Sure, nothing wrong with making rules for yourself. However for the discussion, 2 kills / 2 escapes keeps being a draw.
EDIT: You said "a draw is when neither side complete their objective." and that has nothing to do with the actual draw. Killer outcome is disconnected from survivor outcome, since this is not a team based game.
Killer either has 0 or 1 kill (loss) 2 kills (draw) 3 or 4 kills (win)
Survivor on the other hand has only win (escape) or loss (die). You dont win as a survivor when you die but your 3 teammates make it out - it is still an individual loss.
@Lit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676728#Comment_3676728
People can put what ever they want as their personal win condition.
For me, I like to get as many hooks as possible, if I end up with like like 8 hook states (like 2 on each survivor for example) I still class myself as doing a good job. Obviously I prefer to kill so yes, guilty of going for the injured person over the healthy one of course.
But the following is confirmed by the devs as the intended win condition for killer -
1 kill = lose
2 kills = draw
3/4 kills = win.
Killers are intended to be stronger than survivor because no one would play otherwise. But also, the game is kinda in the hands of the killer based on how they play - I get that.
But touching a perk like Adren when the win rate is how it is will see killer win rate surge. It just seems unfair that the activation condition is 5 gens and it's being reviewed/changed. The killer in most cases will only chasing one survivor at the end game. So like... the perk kicks on and benefits that one person.
Dont forget 0K = loss.
If there would not be the possibility for 0K, there would not be a draw in DBD since only 4 possible outcomes.
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MintSkull explained it 😁
https://youtu.be/QgIbJlJD1_I?t=2123The music is simply to amazing for a standard terror radius 😍
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676614#Comment_3676614
Well I suppose my point really is that trying to compare these perks is a fruitless endeavour.
- You compare Deja Vu to Pain Res in terms of time saved, Deja Vu looks incredibly weak.
- You compare Lithe to Pain Res in terms of time saved, Pain Res looks pretty damned weak.
We know that isn't true, but mathematically we have to drastically simplify the equation to try and establish any objective truth, to the point that it almost becomes pointless to argue.
I would argue that the top 10 perks for survivor are just as good as the top 10 perks for killer. Every 10 seconds you buy as survivor multiplies in value to anywhere between 1 and 3 times, depending on what your team is doing, because that time you saved doesn't just affect your time, it affects your whole team.
E.g. that 25s that Pain Res gets back for the killer on 1 gen is dwarfed by the combined progress made on the 2 other gens by however long that chase smd hook took.
Hmmm not sure about that. How much time does Lithe really saves you? And how often does it trigger? That is a difficult question and even more complex and impossible to answer then Deja Vu vs PR.
We can compare slowdown perks with perks that increases repair speed and maybe chase perks but hardly crossover.
I think we can fully agree that perks are hard to compare. How should we realsticly know the amount of time, Spirit Fury saves on average? Or Sprintburst? None of us can say a number with a straight face.
Where we maybe disagree is who the better perks overall has. And that is fine. For now and for me it is killer. But when i remember back 2018 for example, it was clearly survivor.
Last but not least, it is a meta thing. Right now, Tunneling and proxy camping is the 2go strategy. And the anti tunneling tools for survivor are very limited. A strong buff to DS for example may even swing the tides and suddenly, Survior and Killer are again neck on neck with how powerful perks can be.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676308#Comment_3676308
killer consider themselves winning when they kill 3 out of 4 survivors or or 4/4 survivors. They lose whenever 4 people escape, 3 people escape or 2 people escape because in all of those instances, the survivors powered exit gate and exited the trial. I am going ignore the 1 escape exit gate and 1 hatch scenario.
60% kill-rate /= 60% win-rate.
I can get
5 games of 4k and 5 games of 2K. This gives me a 50% win-rate with 75% kill-rate
OR
I can have
1 game of 0 kills
2 games of 1 kills
1 game of 2 kills
5 games of 3 kills
1 game of 4 kills
This averages to 23/40 for 57.5% kill-rate and 60% win-rate. Kill-rate is misleading for killer. It says very little for how good a killer is.
or 2 people escape
2 people escape is a draw. Neither a win or a loss.
If killer want to make this rule for themselve for whatever reason, so be it but those made up rules do not help the discussion. Survivor could also just claim that dying is actually a win as long as two other survivors escpape, you know... just because. But it is simply nonsense. Keep in mind that we are discussing statistics, and not what people feel.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676513#Comment_3676513
I think that statement is a little misleading, as this game is an asym. Of course the killers perks are stronger than survivor perks on a 1 to 1 ratio, because the killer has 4 perks vs. survivors 16 but this game isn't objectively quantifiable on a 1 to 1 ratio.
The only way of even attempting to compare these perks is weighing up time saved completing gens vs. time bought preventing completing gens. E.g.
- Pain Res for example returns the killer 25s of gen progress instantly, 4 times, which is an overall 100s of gen progress returned at max value (plus regression), but let's assume you get max gen hits and survivors are there to immediately the stop regression with 4.5s repair.
- Deja Vu saves a total 5.4s per 90 gen charges per survivor. If we say all 4 survivors take it, lets say on average they have to complete 150 charges to account for interrupt and regression, which Deja Vu saves 8.5s per gen. Across 5 generators that's (8.5s × 5gens) or 42.5s. Seems a lot worse, but of course, it's value gets lower when the survivors do better, I.e. loop longer and no additional regression. There is also the issue that these bonus can be applied at the same time on different gens, which makes the true value much harder to quantify.
- Compare instead vs. Lithe, Lithe is a 1 to 1 chase, like the 1 instance of Pain res firing off, so a better metric. Lithe should at least be able by raw numbers to extend your distance from the killer by (1.4m/s × 3s) 4.2m in a straight line, but the killer has to traverse to get around the obstacle. Lets guesstimate if played well at a decent tile it takes the killer 2 seconds to clear the obstacle and start chasing you. At 6m/s for 2s, that's 12m + the last second of Lithe vs. the killers speed (1.4m/s ÷ 1s) or 1.4m. So 13.4m distance before the killer even starts to catch up. 0.6 m/s difference over 13.4m is (13.4m ÷ 0.6 m/s) = 22.33s.... oh dear... If every survivor takes Lithe, that actually makes each 25s instance of Pain Res inferior as the survivor even gets the 165% boost from taking 1 hit and the chase keeps going.... all of this potentially while 3 survivors are working on gens... thats 3 times the time value for this survivor on every second they save.
Clearly there is an issue in trying to objectively measure perks this way, and we're simply not comparing oranges and oranges here. So the statement "Killer perks are better than survivor perks" isn't really demonstrably true in any kind of objective measure.
The value is hard to compare, because Deja can have flat value without getting interrupted at all (no regression), or you have to do the equivalent of 10 generators. Both scenarios are rare, but they are possible. On the other side, PR could possible only have 4% value when every generator is at 1%. Also, extremly rare. It can also have the value of the full 100%, more likely but also not always the case. You get my point.
Lets assume, we get with both perks full value.
Deja Vu cuts off per generator 5 seconds. So we would take the combined value of doing 10 generators (extrem example), which is about 50 seconds in total. This is about the equivalent of 2 PR hooks. Even in extreme example, PR is much superior then Deja Vu.
We would need more data to 100% say what is better, but from my personal feeling, PR value is at about 80-90% and it is rare that survivors have to repair more then 7 or 8 gens in total.
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Both roles have bad perks, but right now, killer at least have the better top 10 perks in general.
PR, Pop, Corrupt, UW, Grim are objectivly speaking better then WoO, Deja, Lithe, Adre or Self Care.
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Maybe i am getting it wrong so feel free to correct me. The survivor has to do nothing for 2 minutes in the basement so his team can heal 10% faster? 🤨
If thats the case, that would be an aweful effect for so much wasted time.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675815#Comment_3675815
i believe the hard evidence of my own eyes and the fact I was able to grab this screenshot, over you saying "no ur lying" to be perfectly honest.
not that it matters, I've already said that we shouldn't draw conclusions about whether or not survivor is unenjoyable based on the number of people currently playing the role, be it twitch stats or in-game players.
Its okay, you dont have to believe me. Make your own notes across a week or two and come to your own conclousion. But hey, i am defending survivor quite a bit, so why should i now stab them?
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675287#Comment_3675287
Why use twitch as a metric? Streamers are a tiny percent of the people playing, and playing survivor is more conducive to streaming. Why not use the BP bonus, which reliably goes to whichever role there are insufficient players for at any given time?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/K2QBFT6EGRJW/image.png
...would you look at that, the bonus is currently on survivor, meaning there's disproportionately not enough survivor players.
Now I personally wouldn't argue that this proves that the survivor experience is miserable, but at the very least I think the BP bonus, which is reflective of the general player base, is a better metric than looking at who's streaming on twitch.
That is not correct. At least in EU, it is pretty equal. I did some notes about the incentive, and on average it was pretty even.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675287#Comment_3675287
As a survivor main I would disagree.
I think killer is far easier but a million times more stressful - it's the main reason I play more survivor than killer.
I win almost every killer match but the stress just isn't worth it for me.
Killer = easier but stressful
Survivor = much more relaxed but far harder to get really good at
Exactly.
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@Bradcore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675696#Comment_3675696
Lol, no. The game is a piece of cake when Survivors actually play. Survivor has been easy mode for a long time. That's one reason I think they are screwing around so much now. If anything, it should be way harder for survivors. Survivors should never feel like they're safe.
Lights out was a step in the right direction. I hope that becomes a permanent move because that was the most fun I've had as either side in years.
I litteraly pulled off 100% winrate without any game done all 5 generators during Lights Out. If this is somehow fun for you, you should maybe not call anybody or anything "piece of cake".
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@PotatoPotahto said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675651#Comment_3675651
Sure thing, nerf every perk above 10% pick rate and the game will be healthier. There are way better candidates for nerfs than UW.
When each side has 100+ perks allowing some of them to have even 10% pickrate is generous.
But that means Adrenaline and WoO should be nerfed too.
I never said they all need to be nerfed. Especially not by usage numbers. I was simply highlighting killer main "problems" these days.
There are a view better candidates: PR and Grim Embrace. We are talking about slight nerfs, not big changes.
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@PotatoPotahto said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675454#Comment_3675454
Killer perk: 10% usage rate
Survivor mains: "OMG this perk is so overwhelming"
lol thats exactly my point. Killer have so many strong perks, that even those who only get used 10% are insanly powerful. Killer these day can jerry pick which of their strong tools they want to bring. Meanwhile, survivors have WoO and Deja Vu🤣
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675505#Comment_3675505
I've tried, but the game is less fun for me that way. The really fun part of survivor for me is optimizing and essentially speedrunning the trials. And that's not even remotely possible unless I'm in a very specific 4 man SWF. Every once in a while they do a matchmaking test where I have solo queue nirvana for a day or two with players I used to play comp with, and then they immediately turn it off and it goes back to a matchmaking free-for-all.
I just don't see why survivor matchmaking has to be this bad for the game to function.
Again, word by word agree. Even the comp part 😂
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@[Deleted User] said:
I do wonder if we might be starting to see the ripple effect of not matching players accurately in terms of playstyle. You have to figure that the players who prefer to be optimal will get fed up with teammates who throw for Archives or don't do objectives.
I personally haven't launched the game in over a month. I'm the type of survivor who constantly sticks gens and plays pretty optimally. And I feel like my time is being wasted most of the time on solo queue. I don't get teammates who play like I do or have anything close to my experience level. So I quit playing.
I wonder if other players with my mindset are gradually doing the same. You eventually end up with a hyper casual playerbase, and that's going to frustrate some people.
This reads like it came directly from my mind.
And yes, i dont play much survivor anymore but rather either 1v1s against other maniacs or killer games. My main issue with survivor is that i have to be significantly better then the killer to even reach a 50% winrate - on the highest level of course, otherwise you are stuck with the other 40/60s. And that feels like a chore ngl.
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@WolfyWood said:
Well what do you expect survivors to do?
This meta is godawful, boring, and almost zero variety, skill-expression continues to get watered down, maps made more bland and killer sided, perks are being released that literally only benefit the Killer, among other things.
Taking it out on the killer is a wrong move and shame on those people for being unsportsmanlike, but there is not point in putting effort to escape right now.
Sad but true.
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@OneNineTwoNine said:
Fair enough. I guess I'm in the minority with this opinion then.
Minority or not, you are absolutly correct.
A way to deal with proxycamping killer would be an increase of hook stage timer.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674901#Comment_3674901
true but i think there would be a mind game for both sides. is it worth taking the perk and trying to do it or is the killer runnign teretorial and im on hook 5seconds after i enter the basement?
overall the idea of invocations is super interesting i just dont now if bhvr has the ability to properly balance them
A perk that creates a mindgame or a threat is still better then most survivor perks we got recently 😉
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@Zakon05 said:
Ultimate Weapon is definitely too strong at the moment, mostly in the sense that it power creeps most other info perks, but I shockingly don't see it very often when I play survivor. I think because a lot of killers prefer to run 4 slowdowns.
So, I mean... I guess look at it that way? It's just an info perk at the end of the day, it tells you where to go to chase, it doesn't help the killer win that chase unless the survivor is hopeless without Windows of Opportunity. Meanwhile that's at least 1 perk they're using which is not a slowdown.
Ultimate Weapon: Best tracking perk in DBD history.
Usage rate: 10%
Killer mains "We dont have good perks now".
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Once upon a time, when maps were darker and light brought a grim tone to the game.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674890#Comment_3674890
lets be honest if the perk where that good it would still be unusable cause all killer would run terretorial or just patrol basement to get a nice nasement hook
It would create an interesting scenario. Should i waste a perkslot as killer to simply counter a non-existing ghost? Or should i risk it and ignore the possibility?
Some perks can be pretty good even tho they are not in play. Unbreakable for example.
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Weaving Spiders would actually be an interesting perk, but it seems way to weak.
It takes 120 seconds and it even afflicts the broken status effect for the rest of the trial, so something worthwile would be more reasonable.
What if it finishes one random generator? That would actually be pretty good and would add something to the game, for both sides. But devs are way to scared to give survivors anything decent these days.
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They better should. Objectly speaking it is an overpowered combo, individually they are completly fine tho.
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The last one.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674208#Comment_3674208
GP? (sorry not familiar with that acronym) general populace?
It's understandable , but I think its unreasonable. "We hate it and if they dont stop it when we tell them to, they shouldnt be able to do it" isnt reasonable.
Oh right, I should mention that I belong to "those" people who believe tunneling to be normal gameplay, because it's the same as survivors "just doing" a single generator instead of swapping generators every 33% of progress. Note that the community hypocritically vilifies it if the killer does it. for survivors it's considered the "normal" gameplay.
"Would you kindly stop genrushing at 0 Hooks?" How do you think this forum would react if I opened a thread like that? I'm pretty sure I'd be ridiculed and told to git gud. "Stop doing your objective effectively just because I didnt progress mine yet" isn't reasonable.
People often tell killers to consider the survivors feeling. my answer is simply that survivors dont care either, so why should killers?
https://ochido.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Logo.jpeg
(Yeah i know, ancient history and bad taste example, anyways...)
It's understandable , but I think its unreasonable. "We hate it and if they dont stop it when we tell them to, they shouldnt be able to do it" isnt reasonable.
Why? Its a game, and it should be fun, right? Most survivors dont have fun when someone is getting tunneled, at least when we believe what they say on forum and social media. And from my perspective, i dont have fun tunneling as killer, because i personally feel like i make them a horrible experience and i make it to easy for myself. I always, since 2017 run this motto: If i have to camp and tunnel, i am not good enough.
You do what you do and thats fine. In fact, tunnel more, this will only speed up the process devs come up with a solution. Eventually, something will come that ruins tunneling and it does not botter me the slightest, since i never need those tactics to get my wins.
Oh right, I should mention that I belong to "those" people who believe tunneling to be normal gameplay, because it's the same as survivors "just doing" a single generator instead of swapping generators every 33% of progress. Note that the community hypocritically vilifies it if the killer does it. for survivors it's considered the "normal" game.
You dont like when survivors finish generators, and that is a topic we can discuss. But what has this to do with tunneling? There is no "tunnel gens". Tunneling is a tactic out of many, gen rush is the only tactic survivors have.
No second object, nothing else to do then running killer, hanging on hook, unhooking, healing and simply doing generators. And since healing speed is slow now, many dont even do that anymore.
"Would you kindly stop genrushing at 0 Hooks?" How do you think this forum would react if I opened a thread like that? I'm pretty sure I'd be ridiculed and told to git gud. "Stop doing your objective effectively just because I didnt progress mine yet" isn't reasonable.
You tell me in all seriousness you would look silly? Most topics back in the days beside Noed/DH op were exactly that. Thats why there are a trillion powerful regression perks and even genspeed and toolboxes got nerfed significantly. But if you still think genspeed is to fast, go for it and complain. I personally disagree but there is defenitly room to discuss.
People often tell killers to consider the survivors feeling. my answer is simply that survivors dont care either, so why should killers?
I actually said, this has nothing to do with the people, its the game itself. But to give you an answer why you should care about other peoples feeling: Because its the most normal thing to do? When someone gives you #########, you give it back? Is that a great philosphy?
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@EmpireCity830 said:
I'm surprised it only took 1 game for Myers. I've given up on trying adepts on killer. I just think the game is too fast today for some killers. You have to be really lucky, play really well or both just to secure the adept.
I wonder what other people think of this? Are killer adepts worth it today?
Myers is arguably one if not the easiest. Play with your food as a perk works perfectly on him. Combine it with Thombstone piece and J.Memorial and you might get a kill within the first minute of the game. My adept endet in less then 5 minutes with no gen done.
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Contgrats to all the adepts and thanks for sharing your experience with us!
You say you did your Survivor adepts aswell with some documentation. Do you have a forum link for us?
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@Raptorrotas said:
So 3 survs didnt manage to do 1 gen in the time it takes to tunnel out a survivor? First searchtime + Chasetime + optional camping the first kill should be enough for atleast that much.
I dont get the "at 5 gens" complains either. Is the koller supposed to give you a headstart? If 3 gens are popping within 90s of a trial starting theyre also supposed to just deal with it cuz izs normal gameplay according to this very forum.
Nobody is asking for a headstart and people are aware that the GP will just do what the game gives them. Right now, DBD is most promsing for killers to tunnel and proxycamp. Isnt it understandable that survivors want to have that changed? Not changing the people, that is hardly possible, but rather the game itself?!
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@BlackRabies said:
Gave up ready after the 3rd line. You not know how an asymmetrical game suppose to work? The one killer player needs to have more power than the 4 survivor players. If you want a 'balanced' asymmetrical game go play Death Garden and see how that game turned out.
Yes, the one player needs to have more power then a single survivor, but not more power then all 4 combined.
And thats the issue.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/4G2KZ7SYFGQH/image.png
Such a nice positive thoughts from survivors playing againts new killer that just came out! Makes me want to keep playing him and not totaly switch to classic on loop repeat meta killers ;)
No, seriously tho. How low this can get. This community can be sometimes so bitter and sad.
S: You play like a bot.
Killer takes it personal and practice fulltime.
S: Sweaty! NERF! Unfair!
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I rarely play hag but the buffs to me don't really seem like much.
Nobody plays Hag, but those like me who do will stomp the living hell out of people. She is now without a doubt very solid A tier, maybe even higher.
Pig change honestly i am not feeling too good about. I feel like removal of jigsaw box auras will make her feel 1 dimensional but im willing to try her.
Pig strong buff, goes to solid B tier. Her chase will become very powerful from what i have experienced from PTB. And they even reverted a nerf from PTB. Questionable descission. But i guess killer cried loud enough again.
I know the huntress buffs are controversial but i honestly hate playing as her, so i want them, i'm hoping maybe i'll enjoy her more with these changes.
Cracked Huntress will be now even more cracked. And bad Huntress can get dows quicker. Another Hold-you-hand buff.
Clown buffs seem great. He should be more fun from having to reload less and invigorate should hopefully feel more effective.
Very significant buff, his slow mobility weakness will be mostly gone. Overall, maybe okayish, but also not really needed.
Doctor buffs are good but i saw in bug reports that the range change was bugged so i hope it's working for live release.
Doctor can now maybe use different addons apart from Discipline. Very solid buff, now even stronger in chase and outside. I love playing against and as the Doctor, i hope this update wont change that to much.
Mangled update, i do not like. I think i am probably never gonna use those add-ons and sloppy butcher again. 25% reduced heal for 60-90 seconds i think just sucks and there are far more reliable things to use.
Dont give a damn tbh. Meaningless change overall. Never used the mangled status, never cared.
The Chapter :
Strong killer, but i doubt he will become very popular. Was expecting so much more from the Teaser. Got baited.
Overall mediocre killer perks. Survivor perks wont change much as well.
Map is to big but looks cool.
Overall pretty bad new chapter.
Overall i think it's a good update, but i think some of it is bad. I will definitely be watching the livestream and i hope BHVR continues to do them.
Since i am seeking for challange and play both roles equaly, leaning towards killer, i dislike the update. Its just another step into the wrong direction, surpassing the 60% killrate mark and further. But i am not surprised at all. AT LEAST they reverted the absolutly rediculous, completely braindead, unspeakable nonsense movement speed buff on Huntress.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672625#Comment_3672625
I once suggested drop the number of pallets by 1/3. For example, from 15 pallets down to 10. Then have 5 wood scrape around the map, you can pickup (like an item that can drop), and choose a place to build a pallet. Can not place on used pallet places (so no 6 shack pallets).
But now, after everything nerf on survivors while 4 slowdown is still in play. I dont think the idea work anymore.
Adding more resource only make it mindless to play as survivors. Because the map size is still the same, cant expect more pallets to fit in. And chests are so useless to spawn more of them.
This would have been an interesting idea in 2017-2020. Unfortunatly, we surpassed the point that we can simply reduce pallets and add an objective to create some.
My idea (super basic, i know) of an extra objective would be that survivors have to active power generators or find oil or whatever so they can repair generators the same speed they are now. In exchange, they will get better structures to loop.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673092#Comment_3673092
Your changes are as follows: Add 1 extra scourge hook, nerf regression by 5%. One extra hook will not change anything if the RNG decides to put all the hooks on one side of the map as it often likes to do. You really think a single hook, still affected by RNG, is worth 5%? It's not.
You're looking at the perk on an individual level, on the level of a flat, one-off 25%. It's token based, with the possibility of failure that isn't the player's fault. Each charge is 25% because the perk needs the possibility of providing value if the Killer is screwed out of a token or two in the early game. Your change provides less value, still has the chance of losing tokens outside of the player's control, and overvalues the effect of a single (still RNG-prone) scourge hook.
You talk about balance, yet I'm not sure I've seen you explain why it needs balancing in the first place, outside of, "I use it, it objectively needs a change."
The explanation is in the original post. "No more annoying RNG for Killer and no more missing out on PR hooks. More ballanced out regression for survivor."
RNG is annoying for killer players, its not reliable enough. One more hook will solve the problem to some degree. Less long way to carry the survivor around, less places (i would even say almost no more places) where Hook is not reachable.
25% for survivor is often times just a to much benefit for a single hook. So i would reduce it to 20%. Maybe 22% or 18% would be better, but this is finetuning the change.
Both sides get what they want without gaining or loosing much. Statisticly, the perk will probably stay exactly at the same as it is now, but way less frustrating for both sides. Win.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672787#Comment_3672787
It will no doubt get changed, but it objectively doesn't need to be. Your change is bad, their change would be worse. That doesn't, however, make your suggestion good; just better by comparison, which wouldn't be hard.
Pain Res. is heavily dependent on RNG and on what Survivors are currently doing. If a gen pops before you can hook, you've just spent a token on potentially nothing. The Killer has no control over whether or not a gen pops towards the end of the chase or when they're about to hook. If the hooks all spawn in the same area (not uncommon, and an extra hook won't fix that), you either have to use them when you don't want to or treat that area as a dead zone and leave people slugged if they go down there while they're still worth a token.
Getting full value from Pain Res. isn't entirely within the player's control (and can be manipulated further by coordinated teams), which is why the maximum value is that high. Your change wouldn't fix that; all it would do is lower the maximum use value. It's not a simple and fair change, it's a categorical nerf.
One significant reason you dont get full PR value all the time is because of hooks. Adding another Scourge Hook will help solving this problem, in exchange for some (actually little) value on the other side. With this change, it wont happen less likely that you cant find a hook in time before gen pops.
Ironically enough, the 2nd part of "not full value" is that often times, max gen is not 25%, so therefore you dont loose any value nevertheless in that regard. So whats even the issue that -5% will hinder when it pops on a gen that has barely any progress?
Its a little bit strange that you highlight the problems, but my suggestion are actually dealing with those. But hey, some read -5% per hookstage and thats already enough to disagree.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672724#Comment_3672724
Most complained about? I'm not so sure. I think there is a certain exhaustion perk that takes the crown. 😉
NOED is still being complained about. Just not as much. I reckon this might have more to do with its pick rate and less with the nerf though.
Sure, DH aswell. Also underlines my point - DH is since the rework barely talked anymore. Here and there, but come on, i can remember the time where every day was a new "Nerf Noed, Nerf DH" thread.
@concubined said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/407642/pain-res-change
I disagree, I believe the perk is in a healthy spot right now as far as the community’s standards and culture customs goes. You can’t keep procing it by one survivor anymore incentivizing not hooking the same survivor. And the only 4 uses of the perk has already done its damage to the perk, nerfing it to 20% would be too far unless you revert the previous changes to it only having 4 uses back to limitless.
Please leave gen regression perks alone, last one killers got was call of brine and that was when I first downloaded the game and with each and every update without fail survivors have been receiving gen speed/progression perks. Slow down perks are very necessary in this current climate and higher mmr.
You gain a little bit more consistency for effect. Overall it would actually be only a slight nerf, if even.
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672773#Comment_3672773
Yeah I kind of wish the community would focus more on buffing all the other bad perks more.
Feel free to make suggestions.
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@Raconteurminator said:
The march to fix all the perks that don't need fixing continues inexorably.
It will get changed without any question. Better you hope for a change like this then making it a trash perk as Devs often pull off.
And before you start, i use PR every game. And yes, it defenitly needs those changes, objectivly speaking.
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
Why are people suddenly going after the generator damage perks when generator blocking is the meta?
Number one problematic killer perk is GE. I have suggestions for that aswell, but for now, lets stick with PR.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672729#Comment_3672729
They are simply saying no matter what you do or change, there will be people who will complain regardless, simply for the sake of complaining, because its all they know how to do.
Its a strange change though. I don't think an extra hook is worth the trade as a survivor. Pain res, Pop, etc all have the 'This isn't fun, at all.' tag hanging off them, similar to BU+FTP, Tunneling, gen rushing, etc. In fact... wow, this game has a lot of things that just 'aren't fun,'
Why does it matter that people complain about a perk? it is about fixing a perk for the better. For both sides.
I would take that trade for Survivor and Killer. Way more ballanced and less frustrating for both in my opinion. And this without making the perk trash.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672724#Comment_3672724
To each their own but we've still seen people complain about it, if not loudly as before. To us, it's more along the line of people have bigger targets to yip about. If those go down other things rose and this happens again and again like waves on a lake.
Bigger targets, yes. Because this game has a lot of targets. I dont see anything wrong with ballancing a perk. And just because players would complain about another one, we should not do it, even it is the correct thing to do?