thesuicidefox
thesuicidefox
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@Mister_Holdout said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1368775#Comment_1368775
Still sounds very strange to me. I've never had any problems using my keyboard for movement.
Nothing to do with you having problems. It's just more optimal to use a controller for movement. I don't have problems aiming with a controller but I won't deny that a mouse is just more optimal.
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@hahadrillgobrrr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1368741#Comment_1368741
Sounds kinda odd combo to play with controller and mouse. Never seen anyone do it but I'm gonna give it a try.
Neither have I. Most PC players are elitist and think m/kb is just better but it's not. The mouse part is what makes it as good as it is, but using a keyboard for a digital input removes a lot of movement options (moving at odd angles or moving at different speeds, that sort of thing).
BTW I'm not denying a mouse is better for aim. It clearly is. But a keyboard is NOT better for movement. Not even close.
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@Mister_Holdout said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1368741#Comment_1368741
What you're describing to me does not pan out in practice (at least in my experience).
How long have you played DbD using M&K only?
Because 99% of the really good players I know use M&K. I've never heard of people using a controller and mouse together before.
You'll have to link some footage for me to see. Otherwise I have no idea what you're basing this on.
Yea no one uses a mouse and controller because people are binary. They pick one or the other.
Mouse is better for aim.
Controller is better for movement.
Use both to ascend to the next level.
I've only experimented with it in Brutal Doom but it works WAY better than either individually. Only drawback is that it's not very comfortable since you have to basically hold the entire controller with 1 hand, but I was just resting it on my lap.
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Breakable walls are just an awful addition to the game. They should just cut it from the maps it's even on now.
Every single wall is either "I should definitely break this ASAP" or "I should never break this". There is no inbetween. It's never a situation of "oh well I can leave this wall for now". It's just "break this NOW" or "never break this". Turns too many areas into dead ends, especially on Midwich. I'd rather deal with pallets in the Saloon at least both sides have some agency over those.
It's just too binary and one dimensional. Just stick to pallets and windows.
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@Mister_Holdout said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1368695#Comment_1368695
Are you still playing on console? Or have you made the switch to PC yet?
Not trying to be mean, just want to find out how much experience you have with a M&K.
I played PC for a long time (not DBD just PC in general). You have way more control over movement with an analog stick. You can move smoothly in any direction you want. Moving with a keyboard looks and feels so janky.
There is a reason a lot of people playing survivor use a controller, because doing 360's are easier and it's easier to hug loops. You just press the stick in the direction of the wall. With WASD you have to constantly adjust your camera to get the same result and even then it won't be as smooth.
Hence why I say play with a mouse AND controller. You get better aim and movement.
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@Mister_Holdout said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1368652#Comment_1368652
Controllers are good for racing games and that's it lol.
Not true, you have better control over your movements with a controller. Using a digital input (WASD) is very limiting.
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@Mister_Holdout said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1368587#Comment_1368587
Lol no it's not 😂 M&K will always be superior.
Can you move at a 35 degree angle forward and to the right with WASD?
No.
You can with a control stick.
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You should play killer with a mouse (aim) and controller (movement). It is the future. WASD is old news.
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@Nutty_Professor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/162989/xbox-rank-1-killer-tier-list-4-0-0
Doctor S tier?
As someone who mains Doctor, Doctor is in no shape of form an S tier killer. He's a very good killer, he has great tracking and great at shutting down loops. However, due to his lack of mobility he can't be an S tier killer, he really struggles on some maps.
With Doctor, you really need to play him to know his weaknesses.
Why is spirit so low, she's the strongest killer on console (along with Freddy).
Deathslinger, is too high in my opinion. He's great at shutting down loops, however he power just takes too much time. When you hit a survivor, you have to reel them in which takes time, then you have to reload which also takes time.
Just curious what is your player level?
Right now it's almost impossible to play Spirit because injured survivors don't make noise, dying survivors don't make noise, and you can't hear footsteps. It is INSANELY frustrating to play as her right now because of these bugs. If they weren't a thing she would be top tier, but since they are she's mid tier at best.
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I agree with you.
What most people in this thread don't seem to understand is the word BINARY. As in you have 2 choices as survivor and neither are good choices.
PH isn't as bad, but Deathslinger exemplifies this to the extreme. Either you run to the pallet and get speared then hit, or you run away from the pallet and he just follows you and hits you. In either case, you just get hit. There is no avoiding it. The only chance you have is that you commit to running through the pallet and the killer misses his shot, which is a mistake on his part NOT an outplay on your part.
PH is very much in the same category. Either you run to the window/pallet and he uses the tremor, or you run away from it to dodge the tremor and then he just m1's you.
And no it's not the same as Huntress. First because Huntress has a wind up time she can't just instantly throw a hatchet like Deathslinger and aim and shoot his gun. She has to pre-emptively attempt to zone you, which means you can break LOS behind a tree or something, or start juking to make it harder to hit you (because hatchets are slower than the spear). And second, Huntress can't shoot through walls. She can throw over pallets/windows, but it requires her to have the right angle. PH can just hit you no matter what angle it is.
Doc and Freddy are a different problem. They force you to drop the pallet early which just means less value you can get from each loop. With there being less pallets, and most pallets being unsafe, it just means these guys can always get a hit on you no matter what you do. As Freddy all I do is spam snares around a loop. That's all you need to do, and he doesn't lose speed doing it. Once you have 2-3 snares down then you get a hit. The survivor really can't outplay you anymore. Doc can straight up block you from vaulting or dropping pallets which is really janky and connection dependent. Sometimes I can drop the pallet just after getting shocked and other times I can't. It doesn't feel consistent at all.
Both of these killers need to be tuned down, they are both ridiculous. Freddy more than Doc, but they are both EZ mode killers. I actively avoid playing Freddy now because it's just too easy. Literally, out of the maybe 60 games I've played as Freddy since his rework, I had ONE game that was a 4e and it was actually because I was lagging really bad and having massive frame drops. Claudette would literally just disappear right in front of me, and doing certain actions took triple the time it should have because of lag. Every other game has been a convincing 3k/4k with no more than 3 gens done (usually no more than 2), and the last guy usually only gets hatch because I can't be bother to drag out the game any longer to find them so I just let them have a chance at it. Anyone that says Freddy takes skill or that survivors can outplay him are NOT good Freddy's. I was an old Freddy main. Rank 1, played without NOED or Ruin and could consistently 4k but it was rewarding because it took a lot of skill. Now, I might as well just be playing a PvE game with how easy it is.
Doc I don't play, but the few times I did for dailies he felt super easy to use. And as survivor he is still insanely frustrating to deal with, the devs did NOTHING to make him more fun to play against. In fact I'd argue it's worse than before.
We need less of this kind of BS. Killers don't need all this stuff in their base kits, especially when they keep removing pallets, nerfing loops, and of course blood lust. Freddy with just teleport and snares would be enough. He doesn't need Oblivious in Dream World. Doesn't need longer and longer Snap Clap. And he doesn't need the flashing intermittently to awake survivors effect. All that could be moved to his add-ons (namely the worthless ones like Z Block).
And we need less of this binary power BS that we see with Deathslinger and PH. It's lame to have literally no valid options to dodge a hit. Relying on the other player to mess up is NOT a valid counter play option. Being zoned by these killers is not a fun experience and is very one dimensional. Demo is close but he's not nearly as bad since you can force him to use Shred and then dodge it. I don't get why Deathslinger and PH can't work more like that.
Let's hope the devs come around and come up with something more interesting and balanced for future killers.
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I like the name. Here are some more!
- Every One Escapes Life
- Beforecare
- Worse Apart
- Live Soft
- Flop Flip
- Outer Weakness
- Slow & Loud
- This IS Happening
- We're Gonna Die Together
- Living Darkness
- Flimsy Noodle Hold
- Underwhelming Presence
- Forget Me
- Save The Worst For First
- Relenting
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Did you get access to a different version of Midwich?
Because there are not "TONS" of god pallets, it is more like 2-3 God Pallets. The Map is bad for both sides.
This.
Most pallets are unsafe and there are a lot of dead ends. Getting chased sucks on this map.
Gens are too spread out and there isn't enough stairs to get up top. Getting pressure on this map sucks.
This map is bad for everyone. I hate it.
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This is legit the best thing ever. I want to main PH now.
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@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox for the last time
Yes cages aren't hooks but they aren't entirely different either so dont quote me if you dont even have any idea what I'm saying
I proved they were not entirely dissimilar as cages can use some hook effects regardless of how alike to hooks they are. I highly doubt the devs could forget to code smthn as important to ph's power as cage states so I can only surmise that this is intentional and the moris description is wrong. Ur right it doesnt take a rocket scientist so I really dont get why ur finding this so hard and quite frankly I'm done wasting my time hitting my head against a brick wall
"Yes cages aren't hooks"
This. This is all that needs to be said here. "Cages are not hooks". So mori should not work.
You're wasting your time because you have no argument at all. You proved nothing. No where is there evidence that mori should be an exception to the rule. Again, I AM STILL WAITING TO HEAR WHAT HOOK EFFECTS WORK WITH CAGES. Until you can give me an example, you have no argument.
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@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox U even agreed that a hook effect is smthn that occurs as a result of being hooked. Guess what?
Hook states get removed from being hooked. Hard to understand ik. But pls try.
They did not say that moris are not supposed to work this way. They said that cages aren't a hook. This does not mean that they are entirely different. No mention is made of offerings by the devs or otherwise. The rest is what you've chosen to infer
They can. That's why I'm not basing my conclusions on the fact that the mori works out of cage. Unlike how you're basing your argument on a description which contradicts a much newer and up to date 1
"U even agreed that a hook effect is smthn that occurs as a result of being hooked"
WHICH CAGES ARE NOT HOOKS. OMFG
"They did not say that moris are not supposed to work this way."
No but they said cages are not hooks, and the mori offering explicitly says "hook". Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it's unintentional.
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The problem is they keep adding content to the game, which just keeps making the problem worse and worse, until a point where we are at now where they have to untangle this massive ball of yarn to get to the real issues. I'd like for them to fix this but I doubt it will ever get fixed.
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It's not that bad.
Finished with 24 days left. It would have been even sooner but I played some on 2 other accounts. Probably would have finished with at least 30 days left.
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@Grim said:
You must be trolling rn. Weve been over all 3 of those points but all you seem to do is retype them and pretend they're right now
Ok...
1) they do. They remove hook states. Just. Like. Hooks. Thus hook effect
2) that's irrelevant. It's clear that whilst they are not hooks they're not entirely different and thus are still privy to some hook effects. E.g. look to 1. This is clearly an intentional feature
3) descriptions can be wrong. As @Dpooly pointed out, there's also a description that explicitly says cages are not influenced by perks, making no mention of offerings. This also explains exhaustion reset. And since the mori description is older and not written with ph's power in mind I'm willing to bet that the moris one is simply outdated
It's painful that you cant see how that very post proves you just repeat yourself and dont listen. A big waste of time
Edit: your 2nd paragraph was funny btw. Ye ig the devs just forgot to implement cage states ykno a feature thatd play a big part in his power LUL and now the cages are using hook states due to some luck from a bug
No what's painful is that you defend this as if it's supposed to be this way. Every instance points to it being unintentional. You keep twisting things to say it is but there are several clear lines that say it shouldn't.
Also... STILL WAITING TO HEAR WHAT OTHER HOOK EFFECTS WORK WITH CAGES.
"hey do. They remove hook states. Just. Like. Hooks. Thus hook effect"
Removing a hook state is not the same as a hook effect. Mori description makes it a hook effect.
"that's irrelevant. It's clear that whilst they are not hooks they're not entirely different and thus are still privy to some hook effects. E.g. look to 1. This is clearly an intentional feature"
It's not. They said it supposed to be that way yet in this one specific instance it's not. Therefore it isn't supposed to be that way per the devs own words.
"descriptions can be wrong."
And so can interactions. JFC really?
"It's painful that you cant see how that very post proves you just repeat yourself and dont listen. A big waste of time"
Funny this is what I thought about everything you post. Unlike you though, I actually have evidence to support what I'm saying.
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@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox and yet some hook effects do work
Unless the devs just forgot to implement cage states, this is intentional
Again with the description you're like a dog with a bone. Descriptions have been inaccurate. They have been changed. Back then there was no need for the distinction between hooks and hook states so ofc it'd say hook. Cages did not exist then. Fact. End of
You can repeat yourself 100 times more and get as worked up as you like but it doesn't suddenly make you right and it doesn't change fact
Some hook effects other than moris do work. Cages affect hook states. Moris work based on hook states. It's really that simple
Ofc you'd actually support cages getting their own independent states to change. If that was how it was then ironically their only real use would be to cage and tunnel as opposed to just hooking and actually getting some real map pressure
"Unless the devs just forgot to implement cage states, this is intentional"
This is clearly not intentional by the fact the mori says "survivors that have been hooked" and ZERO other hook effects work.
"You can repeat yourself 100 times more and get as worked up as you like but it doesn't suddenly make you right and it doesn't change fact"
What "facts" have you presented LMAO. Here are mine:
1) Cages do not proc ANY hook effect.
2) Devs said cages are not hooks.
3) Mori says "survivors that have been hooked".
"and yet some hook effects do work" ... "Some hook effects other than moris do work."
######### NAME THEM.
"Ofc you'd actually support cages getting their own independent states to change. If that was how it was then ironically their only real use would be to cage and tunnel as opposed to just hooking and actually getting some real map pressure"
Because they are pretty easily abused and cause all this confusion with hook effects. If they were completely separate then there wouldn't be a problem. Two other killers have alternate ways to kill you, and there are 2 perks that provide an alternate way to kill. It seems reasonable to have cages be their own thing.
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@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox my god ok. I've never disputed that a mori isn't a hook effect. I'll break it down for you
Are hook states removed as a result of being hooked? Yes
Does this make hook state removal a hook effect? Yes u just agreed on the def of a hook effect urself
Do cages also remove hook states? Obv
Therefore cages use some hook effects but not others
If being a hook effect is all it takes for the cages to negate them then cages also should not, by ur own logic, consume hook states
My original point is that the cages clearly dont negate all hook effects as they're not entirely separate from hooks so stop trying to say they are
Dev. Said. They. Do. Not. Count. As. Hooks.
There should be ZERO exceptions. They are separate from hooks because hook effects do not work. You can make up whatever you want but a hook state =/= hook effect. Mori is a hook effect, therefore it should not work.
And for the record I don't think that cages should count for hook states at all either. But that is a different discussion. The point is that mori EXPLICITLY SAY "survivors that have been hooked" therefore if they weren't hook a mori should not work.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1364045#Comment_1364045
That's pretty much my list, too. But I'd put Ghostface at C tier because if his reveal mechanic wasn't so broken he wouldn't get half the kills he does.
IDK why people say it's broken, I break his stalk just fine. And a good GF will block LOS and creep up on you. He is one of my most played killers I sneak up on people all the time they don't even have a chance to break my stalk. And then when they DO have the chance it breaks super fast.
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@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox no a hook effect is smthn that occurs as a result of being hooked. This isn't a debate
Edit: if the description is what made it a hook effect then I guess you dont think exhaustion reset is actually a hook effect since nowhere on descriptions like dead hard, sprint burst, berus toxin does it say that exhaustion resets on hook
"no a hook effect is smthn that occurs as a result of being hooked."
Which is... what a mori is. A HOOK EFFECT. And since you haven't been hooked, then the HOOK EFFECT should not trigger.
You have to be trolling at this point. You are literally saying exactly what I've been saying yet somehow still think a cage is a hook.
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@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox uh can you not read? Moris and losing hook states are both hook effects.
So if moris shouldn't work cos they're hook effects than cages shouldn't take hook states
"Moris and losing hook states are both hook effects."
Bro if mori is a hook effect then it shouldn't work BECAUSE HOOK EFFECTS DO NOT WORK WITH CAGES. Hook effect =/= consuming a hook state. Hook effect is anything that says "when a survivor is hooked" which is the entire point of this conversation.
Imagine asking someone if they can read and not comprehending your own statement.
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@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox except consuming hook states is a hook effect lol same with moris. And saying it's irrelevant or putting it in big caps doesn't change this so nice try
It's not hard to start running when a tormented surv goes down. Now I play with friends (usually duo) and I'm normally out of the cage before ph makes it so I'll concede my personal experiences have made me bias but I usually have plenty of time to find a loop with basic map knowledge
Keep making assumptions all you want about me wanting to abuse it but I already find ph to be a joke bar when he fakes the power cos no cool down is bs tbh and I just dont have the problems with this people seem to like to complain about
@ill_Boston_lli I agree let's see. If it does turn out to be unintentional fair nough
If it's a hook effect then why doesn't ANY OTHER HOOK EFFECT WORK?
Yea thought so.
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Here is a discussion about it:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/162297/mori-should-not-work-with-cages/p1
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@Grim said:
@ill_Boston_lli except doc and huntress dont take hook states when they do that. So nice "common sense" you seem to be so proud of
It seems to me the prevailing logic is that moris shouldn't work cos cages are not hooks and moris are hook effects.
Ok so you shouldn't lose hook states too. I mean it's not a hook and losing a hook state is a result of being hooked hence an effect. Guess they need their own "cage states" now LUL see the problem here?
"But muh description"
Oh pls descriptions have been inaccurate in the past. Mm's is a good example of this. So until the devs confirm if this is intentional or not this is not a valid talking point
And balance? Give me a break. You're across the map. If ph gets there before your teammates then that's just sad nobody really bothered to come for you. You have the chase and then your teammates have a head start to get you. It's honestly baffling people consider this a problem
I'll write this in big print to make it easy to understand...
If no other hook effect works with cages, then neither should a mori.
Your logic that they consume hook states is irrelevant when no other hook effects proc.
And yes it is a balance issue. If PH wants he can get there in under 20 seconds (20*4.6=92m where you are likely to spawn less than 80m away). Every game where PH wanted to tunnel me they were on top of me very shortly after my cage appeared, even if someone was there to save me almost right away. And that is a BIG IF. Any good PH will understand how cage spawns work and won't cage you at the edge of the map. They will do it when you are near the center so they can camp/tunnel you more easily. It sounds to me like either you haven't play against a good PH, or you are not a good PH if you have trouble tunneling the guy out of the cage. Literally the only reason you could defend this is if you want to abuse it.
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Legion is actually solid mid tier. Definitely not bottom tier at all.
EDIT: Here is my list.
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@Raptorrotas said:
Mori and cages interact just fine.
Mori's arent activated by either hooking or ungooking a survivor.
When standing on a downed survivor, their current state is checked for "full, struggle or instantdeath"; if its not the first, you can mori them.
While it's true that the mori is worded for "unhooked survivors", it only means it was written when there were no alternate means of triggering it's condition.
Oh yes, because we can all see the ######### code of the game. Totally legit reason to allow mori after a cage 🤣🤣🤣
The offering description EXPLICITLY SAYS "survivors that have been hooked". I don't even need to make other points to demonstrate why it's a problem, yet other people seem insistent on them for reasons beyond my comprehension.
"Somewhere in the game is some code that makes survivors completely silent when injured or dying. Therefore if it's in the code, we have to leave it as it is."
This is you. This is how you sound.
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@Chatkovski said:
- cages prevent anything working with hooks
- Moris work with hooks
- cages prevent Moris.
Q.E.D.
And nothing prevents PH from using the hooks if he wants to use perks – or an offering – working with the hooks.
Good to see some people actually have some common sense around here.
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@Sunri said:
Damm why survivors are such crybabies complaining about everything lol 😴
I better not catch you saying anything about second chance perks like DS then. I'll make note of this post 😉
Also what @indieeden7 said.
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@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox im not assuming anything. just pointed out one way the description might change if mori out of cages were found to be intentional. the irony of this situation is that you just made an assumption there lmao
No I didn't. The offering says "survivors that have been HOOKED". It doesn't get more definitive than that.
And again, it's not just a consistency thing, it's a balance thing. Being able to mori after only a cage is broken AF. You have defenses against hooks and after hook saves. You don't have defenses against cages and your defense after a cage save is extremely limited and highly RNG dependent. If your cage was in a dead zone you are just dead.
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@MegMain98 said:
It’s understandable why anybody would wanna take a break ESPECIALLY from killer. Sounds are absolutely broken and it’s a pain to play killer when you can’t hear anything. No footsteps, silent slugs, no breathing when you have Iron Will, and survivors making zero injured grunts when they do not have Iron Will equipped needs to be addressed ASAP.
However I don’t agree that Pyramid Head is not interactive or boring. He has the same zoning playstyle as Huntress and Demogorgon.
I like Scott, I really do but he and Zubat both are super pessimistic at times and throw out the word “boring” a lot. I’ve heard at least one of them say Hag, Huntress, Freddy, Pig, Clown, Spirit, Legion, Ghostface, Oni, Deathslinger, and now Pyramid Head were either boring to play as or against. That’s over half the roster of killers claimed to be “boring”. I understand the game gets stale after you have so many hours in the game but the word “boring” is thrown around a lot.
^ watch this become the next copy pasta.
Alternative theory, they are just straight up bored with the game itself. Probably good for Scott to take a break then.
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@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox no you have no real argument to support your point, crutching hard on a description. descriptions have been inaccurate in the past and have been updated accordingly to properly reflect how they behave.
as @NuclearBurrito alluded to, a "hook" could actually mean "hook state" but since cages did not exist back then, there was no need for the distinction to be made in the description
Better than the argument based on assumptions, which is all you guys are doing.
Offering description clearly says "survivors that have been hooked". Devs have said that cages are not hooks because they do not proc hook effects. It's not this hard to comprehend. It's very obviously an oversight by the devs.
Imagine saying someone is "crutching hard on the description" then turn around and make up a bunch of ######### that isn't even in the game to defend it being the way it is.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1362515#Comment_1362515
It would fix the consistency issue. The balance issue is separate.
OR
Just make mori not work with cages to fix BOTH the consistency issue and balance issue in one shot.
Like for real, you guys have no argument to defend this. Everything you come up with is easily countered with the simple argument that the offering explicitly says "HOOK" in the description.
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#DeleteDoctor
Doctor is the worst experience in DBD. Anyone that says otherwise is trolling.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1362490#Comment_1362490
Description changes are rarer than effect changes because the description was written to match the intended effect while a bug causing a problem with the effect was not.
However, in this particular case we cannot just assume that this is an example of that, since Mori's came out long before cages did, and while they were explicit with the mechanics not working with hook perks, the devs never called out Mori's.
Now I'd imagine that if you checked the code for Mori's it would probably be making a check for the Survivors current hook state, and since hook states ARE effected by cages mori's work with cages.
If the wording reflected this then there would be no consistency issues what so ever. Cages effect hook states, that is something both hooks and cages share and any other perks that reference hook states rather than hook actions would probably have the same interactions.
I'm well aware that we COULD change the code itself to check for the hook action and not the hook state. But that's not the point and that's not why I'm asking, since in my ideal world cages would count as hooks for everything and mori offerings wouldn't exist.
The point is that you opened this entire discussion about a consistency issue, and I'm trying to ensure that this is ACTUALLY a consistency issue and not a balance issue that has an entirely separate consistency issue by shear coincidence.
It is both a consistency issue AND a balance issue. So no changing the description does not fix a damn thing.
It shouldn't work. PERIOD. It just shouldn't. I can't fathom how you guys defend that it should. It's broken and doesn't match what the descriptions say. You lose on both fronts. There is no arguing for this.
@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox consistency would also be that the mori's description be changed to accurately reflect how it works. it counters all hook perks, not offerings
and lmao at you cant defend from cages. it's incredibly easy to make it time consuming for ph to torment you and then if the surv's smart the time save is negligible and harmful more times than not so yeah really unfair bud. your defence is the chase
if the killer gets to you more times than your teammates do than that's on your bad team, not the cages.
No it counters all hook EFFECTS, which includes mori.
You obviously haven't played against a PH that knows what they are doing. If they want to tunnel you out of the game, they very easily can. It isn't hard to walk across the map to your cage and catch you just after you got saved (assuming someone was there to save you right away).
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1362454#Comment_1362454
Ok so if we change the wording, thus falsifying those facts you said you needed, then you wouldn't have the hook effect issue. Riiiiight?
No because it's still a broken interaction. Being able to cage and then mori is broken. You can't stop a cage. If you have torment the killer can cage you and there is 0 defense. If the killer has to hook you have defenses. Flashlights, bodyblocks, sabo... there are ways to stop a hook. Furthermore, you have defensive options saving from a hook. BT, DS, also body blocks, swarming. You don't get these defensive options with cages, the best you get is that the cage spawns far away but in every instance where I've been caged the killer has managed to still find me very shortly after being saved if not being right on top of me while I'm still in the cage. IT IS BROKEN.
So here are the FACTS:
1) Mori's specifically say "hooks". We don't need to change the descriptions universally to fix an interaction with one specific killer.
2) Devs have said that hook effects do not work with cages. Cage =/= hook. Therefore it makes no sense to have this interaction.
3) The interaction is broken because you can defend from being hooked or after a hook rescue, you cannot do the same for cages.
Your solution does nothing to fix any of these problems.
@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox i'll clarify since apparently it's hard to understand. things as in evidence. e.g., what makes it unreliable in your eyes, etc. some offering description is not reliable. they change.
happy?
The only evidence we need are what I stated above. The offering says "HOOK", you don't need any other evidence. There are instances of the devs fixing the perk to match the description, in fact there are more of those instances than them fixing the description to fit the effect. The only ones that even come to mind are Myer's recent add-on changes.
@Grim said:
@NuclearBurrito no, they dont actually care about consistency it seems. they had an unhappy game against ph so now ph's power must change
LOL seriously? Consistency would be that mori's don't work with cages since no other hook effect works. You can't be real with this comment. This has to be a troll.
Yes. Hmmm. Cages don't proc any hook effects, except this one. Oh yea, very consistent. Like...
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@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox my point is that you cant base your opinions solely on unreliable things. this should be common sense.
and again you repeat the same old tired points as if saying it again makes it right somehow... i can see you have nothing to actually add to this conversation. w/e man ur right
*points out the unreliable thing in order to get it fixed*
"Can't base your opinions on unreliable things"
WUT
@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1362432#Comment_1362432
Answer my question. I'm aware that changing the mechanics is one way to solve a mechanics wording disconnect. However changing the wording is also ALWAYS a solution to a mechanics wording disconnect.
So either acknowledge this fact or give a reason to change the interaction that is independent from the offering using the word hook and stop acting like this is a clarity issue.
The only fact here is that the offering says, explicitly, that you must hook a survivor and the cage does not work for ANY OTHER HOOK EFFECT. Those are all the facts I need. The solution is to make the cage interaction with mori the same as it is with all other hook effects. ON TOP OF THAT, the current way the interaction works is just broken. PERIOD.
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@BigBrainMegMain said:
Stop judging players because they want to have fun instead of facing Sweaty Red Ranked players.
Who TF are you to judge them?
Can you believe people make forum posts after coming from a game facing a Wraith sitting in the corner.
OMG, what a [BAD WORD] loser. Who's more of a loser, the one making the thread or the person minding his own business.
Yes. It's totally fine to ruin the game for 4 other players. It's also totally fine for players to derank to bully new players. Oh yes, and it's not like "AFK" isn't a reportable offense. If it were it would be under the report section... oh wait.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1362396#Comment_1362396
Fine then, an alternative universe where the text says "If the Survivor has been hooked or caged you may kill them".
There, now it specifically references cages and thus wouldn't have any difference with any hypothetical other Killers.
NOW would it solve the problem? If not then why.
OR
They just make it so you have to hook to get the mori.
Why is so hard to admit that's how it should be? The offering is meant for hooks. Cages are not hooks. Allowing it to work with cages is just flat out broken.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1362314#Comment_1362314
I am not dev, I didn't design the killer but If i had to make a guess, It is probably balance reasons. Imagine your perks are BBQ, MYC,Devour hope and pop. If these perk work with his cage power, he could slug 2 people who are tormented, send 1 to cage for instant BBQ proc(based off his location), manually hook 2nd survivor, suppose the survivor saved caged person, MYC procs, you walk to the cage, knock the MYC survivor, hook that survivor, in all that time, you went from 0 tokens of devour hope to 3 and in this time, you were able to kick 3 generator for 75% regression. It would be pretty nutty snowball. I'd have to admit, it would be very interesting ultra-rare add-on. If anything, Pyramid head gives you glimpse of what every killer would play like if perks like BT and DS did not exist as perks. Just be happy you have those perks as survivor vs other killers.
A small word of advice, I don't actually respect DS as a perk if the killer I'm playing is very strong in 1vs1. Like if your playing spirit, If your really confident in the chase, you'll eat instant heal and be almost certain that you'll be able to down the survivor anyway. DS only hurts killers who are weak at the chase and need to respect certain alignments of tilesets. Like if your playing Myers and the map is Ormond, you need respect the fact that taking a DS can lead to Safe pallet>Jungle gym->Safe pallet->Jungle gym->Shack and that could be game losing chase. You just don't got outplay tool as Myers to contest these ultra-safe tiles. Just my 2 cents.
"It is probably balance reasons. "
Which is the same reason that a mori should not work with cages, besides the fact the offering says "hook" specifically.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1362385#Comment_1362385
You aren't changing the offering. You are changing the text ON the offering. No mechanics are altered.
Lets put in this way:
In an alternate universe where the text on mori's is and always was "You can Kill a Survivor if their next hook would put them into the struggle or sacrafice phase", would you still have a problem and if so why?
And then when there is some other interaction, maybe with a future killer, that contradicts the new text? You are changing something that affects everyone, instead of just fixing the interaction for that specific killer.
Cage =/= hook. It's as simple as that. You shouldn't be able to mori a survivor unless you hook them. If you play Executioner and put on a mori, you will need to hook them first. You already have a built in mori, it's completely unfair that you get a free mori when no other hook effect works.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1362349#Comment_1362349
Ok so if we make mori's prerequisite "if the next hook would put the Survivor in the struggle state", thus making it have nothing to do with having hooked the Survivor in the first place. Then it would solve the problem, and any perks with the same wording would have the same interaction of course.
If this does not solve your problem, then THIS CANNOT BE THE ISSUE.
Whatever statement you use the establish this as an issue, in an alternative universe where the statement is false the issue must not exist.
"Hook perks don't work out of cages" is not enough to establish anything, since it's a non-sequiter by itself.
"Hook perks don't work out of cages AND mori's are a hook perk" is more legitimate. However if that statement is in fact the reason for the interaction being bad then if mori's were reworded to NOT be a hook perk (thus making the earlier statement false), then it MUST solve the problem.
Dude it makes 0 sense to change an offering that effects every killer instead of just changing that one killer's interaction with said offering.
Explain why it needs to be a thing. No other hook effect works with cages, why are we going to make an exception for this ONE instance?
Hook anything doesn't work with cages, this is obviously an oversight by the devs if this interaction works.
The only reason someone would defend this is because they plan to abuse it. Sorry but there is no other way you guys could be arguing for this BS as much as you are. It's pretty clear that it's a broken interaction that isn't supposed to happen, and changing the offering for this one specific interaction makes no sense.
@HollowsGrief said:
Even if they did change this it wouldn't change a thing, you just get hooked instead of sent to the cage. Either way you get moried on the second down.
You can stop the killer from getting a hook. You can't stop them from getting a cage. If I have a flashlight that's usually enough to deter the killer from attempting a hook.
@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox there u go proving my point again. descriptions have been known to be inconsistent. im not ignoring it merely acknowledging how they've been inaccurate in the past and can change. smthn you seem to be unable to grasp
anyways, i never said they were "basically the same thing" so dont go putting words in my mouth just so you can strawman. to be precise, i implied that the time saved by caging is not as impactful as let on and is actually harmful a lot of times
all the examples you provided are easily dealt with and situational anyway. and as you've failed to address caging is still almost pointless as in most situations, the surv actually saves more time than you gain as you surrender a lot of pressure in caging and are giving a free save. the only time it is decent is if you want to quick cage a slug smthn you'd be lucky to take advantage of multiple times especially against good teams
"descriptions have been known to be inconsistent."
And interactions have been know to happen that shouldn't happen, what is your point? If the devs said that hook effects don't work with cages it makes no sense for this ONE SPECIFIC HOOK EFFECT to work with cages.
Again the only reason you guys are defending this is if you want to abuse it. If you can make the argument "there's no difference between a hook and a cage" then you shouldn't have a problem with hooking to get your mori.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1362313#Comment_1362313
Changing the description would change nothing but the description.
The whole justification for this entire thread is that the mori says hook which a cage is not. So if that is actually the problem AND it is taken away then there will not be a problem.
If changing the wording does NOT solve the problem that means it was never the main issue in the first place.
So if you don't care about the wording then what exactly is the problem.
Or... just make it so mori doesn't work. It's obviously an oversight if literally EVERY OTHER HOOK EFFECT DOES NOT WORK with cages.
@Grim said:
@DudeDelicious ah so you're on about the couple of seconds from hook travel time? that's honestly nothing. besides, the time saved on the surv's part from nearly being able to instantly save across the map far outweighs the time saved from not having to carry the surv. not to mention, the map pressure you surrender in doing this
again, his built in mori is extremely situational as to whether it helped or not and will most of the time shave off a few seconds from hooking
If the killer picks you up, there are ways to stop them from getting a hook. You can flashlight save, bodyblock, sabo a hook, etc. There is no way to stop a cage. So to sit there and say "it's basically the same thing" is just flat out wrong. It's not the same thing. Not even close.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1361975#Comment_1361975
Ok so if they reword the offering to clarify the interaction without changing it then problem solved right?
No. Stop saying this. You're like the 4th person to say this.
Cage =/= hook. Therefore you shouldn't be able to mori if you only caged a survivor. THAT IS ALL THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN. Changing the description of the offering might affect other things too. It makes more sense to just have cages not allow a mori.
@Grim said:
@DudeDelicious dont make me laugh. if you mean when he's got everyone in cages then that team is either bad or stupid allowing you to get to that point. balance decisions, however minor, shouldn't be based on bad survs. parroting your own logic, i can also end the game quicker if i bring a mori and basement 4 potatoes with insidious bubba, i suppose mori's shouldn't work off hooks too
@thesuicidefox the only other hook effects besides perks are? perks becoming usable again (exhaustion resetting) and o ye other perks becoming usable. my point
it's ironic you quote me on "all you're doing is ignoring everything else" and then you do exactly that again choosing to rely on something that changes often and is clearly not a reliable talking point. hell, this patch is even an example of descriptions getting changed lmao
u know i dont even know why im continuing to waste my time on this nonissue at this point. i feel like im just going in circles with you and if ph really wants to mori he'll just spend several extra seconds to hook instead so w/e. if the devs change this to make you and this echo chamber happy so be it. i'll just hook instead if i want to mori a blendi or something idk
I'm not ignoring what the description LITERALLY says. That's on you.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1362268#Comment_1362268
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/UF3OPDL9KJ78/image.png
Let's put two tooltip together. In Pyramid power, the cage of Atonement counts as being hooked. Ebony mori states you need to be hooked first before the killer can mori you. It works as intended. Is it balanced? Nope. Its not like this offering was ever fair to begin with. Pyramid head is like perfect catalyst for making toxic killer video.
CAGE IS NOT A HOOK. It consumes a hook state but it is not a hook. If it were, then all hook effects would work. Either they all work or none do. There should be no exceptions. And yes, Ivory/Ebony states you need to be HOOKED for it to take effect. If a cage is not a hook for everything else, why is it suddenly count as a hook here?
@BunnyTheHutt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/162297/mori-should-not-work-with-cages
Personally I feel keys and mori's need reworks entirely. They both cuck the other side with little counterplay.
I agree but this is an entirely different discussion. This is about cages and mori. That's it.
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The new map sucks for both sides honestly.
As survivor it's nothing but unsafe pallets and dead ends.
As killer it's impossible to patrol gens when there are only 2 ways to get upstairs and more than half the gens spawn upstairs.
So for killer, you just get gen rushed with no way to get around efficiently to pressure. And as survivor, you have no where to run in a chase. It's probably my most hated map right now.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1362226#Comment_1362226
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JXTDHNBWPM5P/image.png
"Survivors in a Cage of Atonement can be Sacrificed as If they were on a hook". I think you should consider reading tooltips before posting.
Sacrifice =/= mori
Unless someone updated the DBD dictionary.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1362105#Comment_1362105
This might be a bit of speculation but all previous mori have always worked after your first hook state and Pyramid head Mori only works on 2nd hook state. Pyramid as killer gives great signalization that eventually, Ebony Mori and Ivory mori will only work on 2nd hook state. I can imagine them weakening keys such that hatch only appears when all 5 generator are completed instead of that strange rule "When he number of fully repaired generator exceeds the number of living survivor".
Cages count as being hooked, but being cage unhooked does not count as being unhooked from a regular hook. Ebony mori description was written before pyramid head was a killer so the wording is very ambiguous now. The only perk that is does not function properly with current cage system is Adrenaline. If you read Adrenaline fully, It says specifically that if you are disabled when this perk activates, the effect is put on hold and being cage should count as being disabled and once you are freed, Adrenaline should activate but I don't think it does.
"Cages count as being hooked"
No they don't. If they did than anything that procs "on hook" would work. But they don't.
Cages consume a hook state, they are not a hook state.
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@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox all you do is oversimplify. it's honestly exhausting
first off, that's just wrong. nowhere does it say on his power that it cancels out anything that says "hook" so idk where you pulled that out from and secondly, because mori's. are. not. perks. they're not an exception because they should not be subject to the rule to begin with and until the devs confirm this otherwise, using perks as a reason why offerings should be cancelled too is a logical fallacy
all you're doing is ignoring everything else and just focusing on the hook part. just because two things share a similarity does not mean they are the same and should be compared. this is textbook false equivalence and ignoring this does not make it go away or your argument valid
"first off, that's just wrong. nowhere does it say on his power that it cancels out anything that says "hook" so idk where you pulled that out from"
1) LITERALLY NO OTHER HOOK EFFECT WORKS.
2) Devs said exactly this. So mori should be no exception.
"secondly, because mori's. are. not. perks. they're not an exception because they should not be subject to the rule to begin"
It says "Grants the ability to kill one/all Survivors who have been hooked by your hand during the next Trial." It doesn't matter if it's a perk or not, the description specifically says HOOK. There is no over simplification. That's literally what the offering says and it's literally what the devs said about his power NOT working with hook effects.
"all you're doing is ignoring everything else"
IT. SAYS. HOOKED. Period that's all I have to say to prove my point. You seem to ignoring the fact it explicitly says "HOOK" in the description and that the devs themselves have said it's not supposed to work with hook effects. Like how can you even deny this? It's very clear that it shouldn't work with cages. Seriously mind boggling you would say it should.
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@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox making this huge fuss over a description inconsistency cos of a bad game to try and get at ph's power is petty and vindictive
OBNOXIOUS IS QUITE SELF EXPLANATORY I THINK
now onto the only sentence you had of mild substance
his power cancels out perks not offerings. how many times do i have to explain this? to dumb it down for you, i'll use an internet example for you: you're comparing apples to oranges
it still takes a hook state hence why the mori should work and the mori's description should be changed instead. i believe how mori's work now to be intentional and until it's confirmed whether it's intentional or not, implying it's an exploit is both intellectually dishonest and desperate
"Huge fuss" LMAO
I found out that you could be mori'd after being caged. Made a post because the offering specifically says hook, and that's a fuss. Okay. Sure. Whatever you say.
His power cancels out anything that says "hook". Therefore offerings should not work. I don't understand how you can claim the opposite. Cages =/= hooks for literally everything BUT a mori. Explain how that makes any sense.
Nothing needs to changed about the offering description. Mori should just not work with cages, just like everything else that says "hook" in the description. It's that simple.
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@Grim said:
@thesuicidefox i am reading what you write, it's petty, vindictive and obnoxious
i think it absolutely should work on cages. the killer's hook perks are a fair trade for the surv's. that's kinda the whole point of the cages, it takes a hook state and denies hook perks. that has nothing to do with offerings so stop drawing false equivalencies
and relying on a description? cmon, they get changed all the time to more accurately reflect how they work and no amount of caps lock will change that
"it's petty, vindictive and obnoxious"
Seriously? I want the cages to be CONSISTENT. Please explain how asking for consistency is any of these things.
It does have something to do with offerings when the offering specifically says "a survivor who is hooked". Literally the only reason you would defend this is because you intend to abuse it.