thesuicidefox
thesuicidefox
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@metalklok said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1339502#Comment_1339502
"If you do it consistently then yes" you heard it here first folks thesuicidefox confirmed that OoO is not op because ive won more games against it than i lost, in a follow up whispers is also op because when i win i have it equipped.
OOO is fine in solo, it only becomes a problem in SWF because then the entire team knows what you are doing. It's not quite the same thing. DS doesn't actually become that much stronger in a SWF.
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@hillbillyclaudmain69 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1339376#Comment_1339376
Noed isn't necessarily the survs fault if they get hard maps to find totems like haddonfield indoor maps and coldwind, so there's that.
No it's still their fault. If you don't get all the totems then expect a NOED and play safe at the end game.
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@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1339494#Comment_1339494
Ok I am clearly talking over your head so there is no real point in continuing this conversation if you can't understand what I am getting at.
You're not. You're saying that you cannot* pre-emptively remove DS from the game like you can NOED. I'm not stupid.
What you don't get is that THIS DOES NOT MATTER since you can easily play around DS just like you can play around NOED. It's not broken, not in the slightest.
EDIT: Typo, wrote "can" meant "cannot".
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@metalklok said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1339476#Comment_1339476
"I'm saying why complain about DS when you kill everyone? WORST EXAMPLE OF OVERPOWERED PERK EVER"
ive killed people with object of obsession before does that make OoO not overpowered because i won the match?
Killers have lost matches with Noed active does that make Noed not overpowered?
If you do it consistently then yes. Otz frequently gets referenced with his videos showing him eating DS, yet he still 4k's consistently in these games. If it was as broken as you claim then he wouldn't win this consistently after being hit by DS.
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@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1339476#Comment_1339476
Ok you are really not getting the point:
If the killer could truly disable DS like survivors can with NOED they could be able to tunnel people off the hook sense DS couldn't activate to let them get the stun.
Even to the description of DS it always activates until its stun effect goes off.
After being unhooked or unhooking yourself, Decisive Strike will become active and usable for 40/50/60 seconds.
While Decisive Strike is active, when grabbed by the Killer, succeed a Skill Check
to automatically escape the Killer's grasp and stun them for 5 seconds.
- Succeeding or failing the Skill Check will disable Decisive Strike.
- Successfully stunning the Killer will result in you becoming the Obsession.
There is no way to permanently disable DS before it can ever activate(It even says its stun can only go off while active) unlike NOED which makes the comparison between the two a false equivalence fallacy.
No you're not getting it.
YOU CAN PLAY AROUND DS.
That's all there is too it. You have plenty of ways to avoid DS, and if you happen to find yourself chasing someone that has an active DS don't pick them up like a bot. Unless you intentionally plan to burn it because you are in a strong position.
Your whole argument is null and void because you can play around DS. It does not need a change. YOU DO. More specifically your tactics need to change. I have no problem playing around DS at rank 1 against 4 man SWF. I don't fall for obvious baits, I slug, and I burn DS if they are stupid and are willing to let me burn it early in the game. Still consistently 4k.
You make it sound like it is impossible to beat. IT IS NOT. It's only impossible if you refuse to change your tactics.
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@metalklok said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1339415#Comment_1339415
"OH GEE WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT. FOUR DEAD SURVIVORS" as if that counters the argument? so if a killer doesn't kill anyone with noed equipped does that mean noed isn't op because thats your logic.
"It doesn't punish the killer for "doing good" it punishes them for not changing tactics" if you watched the vid otz eats the first ds and says "lets get this one out of the way" which alot of killers do if the situation is right and the second pick up otz slugs him for what he thinks is a minute and gets ds. Also whats the "changing tactics" just leave the dude and walk to patrol gens" because then any red rank survivors will just pick the dude up. Ds is just a crutch
I'm saying why complain about DS when you kill everyone? WORST EXAMPLE OF OVERPOWERED PERK EVER.
"What he thinks is a minute" and a minute are not the same thing.
He burns 1 DS then fails to play around the second, AND STILL GETS ALL FOUR KILLS. In what world does that prove the perk is broken?
@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1339439#Comment_1339439
Note how I said BEFORE IT EVER ACTIVATES.
In your example if you eat DS is activates and it has its effect go off unlike NOED which can be disabled before it can ever do either making them nonequivalent.
Also please proof read my comments before replying yourself.
Yet you can avoid it entirely by not picking up the guy. You can't exactly ignore NOED by not doing totems, that would only work if the killer isn't chasing you at end game and you just leave which isn't always an option.
The hoops one has to jump to conclude that NOED is fair but DS isn't when they are essentially the same thing for either side (punishment for failure to change tactics) is astounding.
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@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1339415#Comment_1339415
DS is still active in your example and thus doesn't pass its equivalence check to NOED.
I just want to prove that NOED and DS can't be compared due to NOED being able to be blocked before it can ever ACTIVATE not have its effect go off(Exposed for NOED is its effect and the stun from DS is its effect).
For them to be comparable then you would be able to permanently Disable DS BEFORE you'd ever need to slug anyone sense you only slug off the hook because DS is activated.
PS. I don't get DSed that often and I even try to play non obsession games as if there was a DS chance so please stop trying to accuse me of tunneling.
If you eat DS how is it still active? Dude has no protection now and you can freely tunnel them with no further punishment. Please read the entire comment before replying.
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@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1339376#Comment_1339376
Ok if your using that example then please tell me this:
How does the killer permanently remove DS from the game without letting it ever activate?
NOED has that but DS doesn't making it a false equivalence.
Slug them. Like is it really that hard to do?
"But they might have Unbreakable" SO THE ######### WHAT. Let them burn it, you have 23 seconds to chase another survivor. That's 2 not doing anything. If someone comes to help that guy up then that's 3/4 survivors not doing anything.
IT IS NOT HARD TO PLAY AROUND.
Also if you eat the DS early then it's permanently removed from the game and you can freely tunnel that player to death with no penalty. If you find yourself is a really good position, just eat the DS immediately. Don't try to wait it out and decide 10 seconds later. Just eat it.
I've had games a full SWF meta with DS/UB and I still 4k without getting hit by DS because I don't just pick them up like a bot. If I get hit by DS it's on purpose to make them waste it. If you have 4/5 gens then it's a great time to make them waste it, so long as you have some pressure on the other 3 (they are injured/scrambled/slugged/etc.).
@metalklok said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1339376#Comment_1339376
otz just uploaded a video where he downed two guys and tried to pick them up and they both ds'd him, sure you can just slug and wait it out but this also punishes the killer for doing good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CdIwSJRjFE its around min 2 if anyone wants to see
11:00 OH GEE WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT. FOUR DEAD SURVIVORS. God forbid he get's DS'd after picking up survivors that were just on a hook. Almost like their perks are doing what they say on the ######### card or something.
It doesn't punish the killer for "doing good" it punishes them for not changing tactics and picking up a survivor that was just hooked. Like bro, are you for real with this video?!?
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I had a killer pull something like this (though way more egregious). But I don't consider it being "outplayed" because we thought we were against a rank 20 and didn't want to bully them. We were trying to farm, to be nice, because currently its super common for me and my SWF, as all rank 1's, to get a rank 20 killer. We don't want to bully them.
Honestly it's a pretty scumbag tactic. What do you get out of this? It's like those people that pretend to be disabled or homeless so people give them money.
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@Primalux135 said:
As devs said DS is not an anitunnel perk its just reward surv for playing poorly. So killers should get a perk that allow to play poorly like I dunno... If survivor escapes from killer sight the survivor enter on dying state but hey.... 120 secs cooldown for being balanced.
It doesn't reward survivors for playing poorly, it punishes killers for not changing tactics. OMFG
Would you say NOED rewards killers for playing poorly? NO! It punishes survivors that don't do totems.
If you get hit by NOED or DS it's your own fault.
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CHANGE YOUR TACTICS.
If the guy was hooked less than 60 seconds ago, slug them. If you are in a strong position where you can catch them again quickly, or eating the DS won't greatly affect the rest of the game, eat the DS. It is not that big of a deal.
I'm getting so sick of this nerf DS bull #########. It's not that hard to play around. Use your brain. I play rank 1 SWF's all the time, 3-4 DS's regularly, and guess how often I get hit by DS? Very very rarely, when I do it's almost always on purpose because I know the survivor is just wasting it. Now I can tunnel them out of the game no penalty.
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No. The only ones complaining that DS should be nerfed are bots that pick up survivors without thinking. IDGAF if you tunneled or not, if the guy was on the hook less than 60 seconds ago don't pick them up.
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Pop was always good for like Nurse and Billy but not for other killers because it takes so long to cross the map and use it. You basically had to rush to the gen and use it right away to get value. Now you have a lot of time to use it, you can chase survivors a bit and still get to use it.
Also it was overshadowed by Ruin until Ruin got changed. There was almost no point to run Pop even with the extended timer. Now it's just replaced Ruin as the most viable gen slowing perk.
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It's because Legion is not a bad killer. They are solid mid tier, especially with the right build. I consistently 4k 3/4 gen as Legion. Really the only maps I struggle are the really big ones like Ward.
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I've seen this a few times.
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No DS and killer tunnels
Killer: LOL just run DS so I can't tunnel
DS and killer tunnels
Killer: I tunnel DS users.
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True. But those legs could crack a coconut.
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@Yung_Slug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1335279#Comment_1335279
With a 50 second duration it's a little less busted, but it's still very strong with the speed bust and lunge increase. I don't think either of those should be added. Your suggestion already has a lot of different effects as is. The speed boost also encourages slugging with Tier 3, which is already insanely strong with Infectious Fright, and the devs probably won't encourage that any further, as we've seen with the post-PTB changes to Oni.
I'd also like to mention that it is impossible to get Tier 3 with FTOH from one survivor. They'll run out of juice before that happens. You would need to fully stalk 2 survivors to get Tier 3 using FTOH, which usually takes a lot of time. If survivors are actually doing gens, they'll get at least 3 done before you hit Tier 3.
I'm not saying that FTOH should never be changed. I really wouldn't care as long as Evil Incarnate is still possible to get, since I rarely use FTOH, but as a Myers main I think your suggestion sounds really overpowered.
If you stalk 1 survivor fully you will be at least 50% to EW3. Again all it takes is 1 survivor to feed him for him to get it early, and then there isn't any counter play except "rush gens" or "don't get hit".
I would rather the Myers be encouraged to slug with FTOH than be one shot for an entire game. IT IS STUPID. It just is. No other Exposed effect lasts forever. The closest is Devour but as that is tied to a totem then it's technically not forever.
As for Infectious, Calm Spirit completely counters this perk. Considering that Doc is stronger now, and that a lot of killers (particularly Onis) use Infectious, it means it's not entirely unreasonable to run this perk now. I run it often and when I get a killer with Infectious it pretty much guts their entire build.
Again it needs play testing. If we could remove the speed boost/lunge then fine I don't care honestly. I just don't want killer mains to say "omg you nerfed this add-on". I'd rather have a stronger version with more counter play as a survivor main TBH.
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@Yung_Slug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1335035#Comment_1335035
1) You'll run out of pallets eventually. But he can always have access to tier 3, especially if it passively charges to 95%.
2) I know he only gets it after a down, but it's already easy to snowball with him using Infectious Fright. The speed boost and increased lunge will make it even stronger.
3) He would not have tier 3 for 30 seconds. Tier 3 lasts 60 seconds. 75% of that is 45 seconds. With Lock of Hair that's 85 seconds.
4) Not sure what you're trying to say with this point.
5) The counter play is rush gens before he can tier up and loop him as if you were injured once he does. He has a large terror radius so you can easily make it to a loop without him sneaking up.
1) You will run out of pallets against a permanent one shot, what is your point? At least now you have to force him to stalk you and don't always need to throw the pallet. Also I never specified the rate at which he gains it passively, but it would be rather slow, such that he would need to stalk at least 50% each time to get it within the time it takes to do a gen.
2) Then remove one or the other. This is just a suggestion obviously it needs testing. The point is to make it a viable alternative to the current version. Something strong that would have more counter play and balance.
3) My bad. I meant reduces by 50% not 25% that was a typo. And this is MULTIPLICATIVE, so normally it would be 30 seconds, and with Lock Of Hair it would be 50 seconds (because [60+40]*.5= 50). So at best he gets an extra 20 seconds, but now he has to stalk more/wait longer to get to EW3 and he uses 2 add-ons in the process (where it might be better to go with extra stalk to get EW3 faster).
4) I'm saying no killer main, especially a Myers main, would agree to changing FTOH unless the new version was inherently better. Do you read how much they complain on these forums?
5) Rush gens is not counter play. That's literally the game. You should be rushing gens against every killer, that's the optimal way to play. To state this as counter play is like saying the counter play to Iri Head is "don't get hit" or the counter play to Forever Freddy is "never fall asleep". That's not a practical option. The whole problem with FTOH is that you are one shot the entire game. Unlike if you CHOOSE to stay injured against a Legion or Plague, against FTOH you have no choice. There is a reason that no other Exposed effect is infinite, and that's because it's just really dumb. Getting EW3 with FTOH and a stalking add-on is not at all hard. Just focus on stalking until you get it and then you have full control over the game. My friend thought the same as you, I asked him to run FTOH. They had 3 gens left when he got it then got down to 2 as he hooked the guy he was chasing at the time. Once he did, the game MASSIVELY swung in his favor. And he didn't even do a good job getting it as fast as possible, he took some chases/hooks before he got it AND he was playing on Ward, both of which hurt him. But he still walked away with a 4k at 2 gens left because he had an infinite one shot. He changed his mind after that. Infinite one shots with no way to counter it other than "don't get stalked" (which again you can't control other players) is just stupid. PERIOD END OF STORY. It needs to be changed.
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If using a good headset and Stridor makes Spirit easy...
...then using a crosshair and a mouse makes Huntress easy.
JUST SAYIN'
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This looks fun.
But I would say you should recast Nea. The girl you got is too pretty.
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@Yung_Slug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1334905#Comment_1334905
But at least there's still counterplay. The main reason Fragrant Tuft is strong is because survivors are often too scared to do anything during Tier 3. But you can still loop it. A movement speed bonus AND an additional lunge increase will make him nearly impossible to loop. And you can pop tier 3 as many times as you want because of the removal of the stalk limit, and it'll be really easy to get it after the first time.
1) No it wouldn't you'd just have to drop pallets early.
2) He only gets the movement speed boost if he downs a survivor in EW3.
3) He doesn't have it all the time. He would have EW3 for 30 seconds.
4) Killer mains would never give up infinite one shots unless the add-on was actually good.
5) There is no counter play to FTOH. The counter play is "don't get stalked" but you can't control what your teammates do. So while you might be able to counter play him your teammates might not, therefore it doesn't matter if you can or not. With this change you would actually have agency over when he tiers up ON YOU.
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@Yung_Slug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1334818#Comment_1334818
With a Lock of Hair it's more than long enough to down 3-4 survivors.
Still less time than infinity.
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@Yung_Slug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1334744#Comment_1334744
But with the speed boost and lunge it's so much more powerful.
But it's not infinite. You have a limited time to make use of those buffs.
I'd much rather deal with a stronger FTOH that's not infinite than be one shot the entire game because 1 survivor fed him EW.
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@ViolentSh4de said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1334269#Comment_1334269
If I did it any earlier the Yui wouldnt have been picked up and the killer would have downed me, also he has at best a 6% debuff with dying light
He didn't even see you, you could have started right when he stood over her and got it. Or even when he started the pickup animation. You waited until she was completely picked up to even start the sabo.
And a 6% DL debuff to Saboteur would be about +0.16s, which could have been enough to stop you. The bar was about 95% full. 2.66*0.95=2.527, and the game drops decimals after the second one which would make it a flat 2.5, which is how long the action would take without any debuffs. DL indeed stopped you from doing that hook.
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@OniWantsYourMacaroni said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331367#Comment_1331367
I kinda disagree with Unbreakable.You say that this perk punishes killers for excessive slugging,but you have to consider that slugging is sometimes the optimal way to use the killers power like Myers,Oni and Plague (with corrupt purge).And with unbreakable you punish the killer for using their powers optimally.
Yes you PUNISH them. It's not rewarding survivors, it's punishing killers. It may be the optimal way to play some killers, but that just means it's even more necessary to stay as it is as a means of countering this tactic which will be MORE common against these killers. Not to mention it's one time use, and they can get their powers multiple times.
Plus of there 3 you mention, Oni is the only one that actually wants to slug because they completely lose their power. Myers and Plague don't, they just get less value out of their power. In some cases they would want to slug, in others they would want to hook. Oni doesn't get that option, so he is different.
Slugging Oni is WAY strong, especially if they run Infectious. There needs to be a counter to that, otherwise it would be too easy for Oni's to just win every game in 30 seconds.
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@Yung_Slug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1334247#Comment_1334247
You just made FTOH way stronger. Combine it with the Lock of Hair and you'll be able to down the entire team with Infectious Fright.
You can already do this though. I've faced several Myers using FTOH and Infectious. It's ridiculous.
The difference now is that you have only about 30 seconds to down the entire team, where before you had the entire game once you got EW3. There would be more room for counter play on the survivor's side.
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So for your clip, you could have done that sabo if you started it sooner and/or the killer didn't have Dying Light. Sabo itself is fine with a toolbox, but I agree the perk is just worthless.
Either Saboteur should sabo a hook in 1s or they should remove the cool down completely and have it give a toolbox sabo efficiency bonus of +X/Y/Z%.
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Ghostface's Outdoor Security Camera add-on should be changed so that it reveals all survivors, whether they are in his TR or not.
Iridescent King needs some kind of downside. It's absolute busted that it does literally 4 or 5 add-ons worth of effects. It should both reduce the charge rate of Static Blast and either decrease the size or increase the detonation delay of Shock Therapy. Or maybe it removes Doc's ability to see fake Doc auras. IDK something this add-on is ######### stupid (on top of Doc himself being ######### stupid but I digress).
Pig's Rule Set 2 should also reduce the repair speed of survivors that have a RBT. Something like 6% would be reasonable.
Legion's Fuming Mix Tape should make survivors scream within 24m of a generator when it is damaged and remove the penalty to the power bar when hitting a basic attack.
Myer's Fragrant Tuft Of Hair needs a rework. Infinite one shots is ######### stupid. Instead FTOH should do this:
- Causes Evil to be gained passively up to 95%.
- Removes the limit of Evil the can be gained from each survivor.
- Increase the lunge range during Evil Within 3.
- Increases movement speed by 5% for 10 seconds after putting a survivor into the dying state with Evil Within 3.
- Reduces the duration of Evil Within 3 by 25%.
IMO this is way more reasonable and still holds a lot of value for the killer. The fact they get Evil passively and can stalk survivors infinitely means they can just keep getting EW3 over and over, but survivors have some counter play options now. Killer also gets another lunge buff on top of the buff already given in EW3, and they get a speed buff if they down someone so then they can more effectively snowball.
I just really hate this add-on because all it takes is 1 survivor to feed him and now you are one shot the entire game. There is a reason they changed NOED from infinite to 2 minutes, and then to a totem. And there is a reason LITERALLY NO OTHER EXPOSED STATUS LAST FOREVER!!!! Because it's ######### stupid.
Odd Bulb for flashlight should have the consumption penalty removed. This thing is pretty worthless because the boosts to effects is overshadowed by the consumption penalty. Better to use Intense Halogen which is almost as good but no penalty.
Styptic Agent (not an UR but important to mention) needs to be changed. The whole problem with the old Styptic/Syringe was that it was a free hit. Syringe is fine now that it is an passive heal, but Styptic is still a free hit and it's stupid. IMO both add-ons should do the same thing just at different rates. When used they both inflict the Broken status and passively heal you. Remove the ability for perks/add-ons to affect the timers, and have only the add-on consumed not the entire medkit (similar to BNP). Styptic should take 40 seconds, Syring should take 20 seconds. As a survivor these are still super valuable because you can use them then do something else while healing automatically. Basically you can do 2 things at once. But Styptic specifically would no longer be a free hit. That ######### is annoying AF as killer, IDK why they thought it was a good idea. Current Styptic is 1000 times better than current Syringe, and this makes no sense because the former is Very Rare while the latter is Ultra Rare.
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Pharmacy I think is fine as it is. It's not a great perk but it's not a bad perk either. If you are hunting for items it's a good choice. The only thing I would change is that you find the medkit if you are injured.
Wake Up and Vigil need something though, that's for sure.
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Your build isn't that great for one. Sloppy on Legion? What is the point? Enduring is overrated, if you know how to play pallets you shouldn't need this perk TBH. Legion Pin is counter-productive. If the survivors can't heal what do you think they will do? Defaced Smiley Pin is better, especially with Thana, because Thana encourages them to heal and DSP punishes them for healing. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Additionally, you maybe shouldn't have taken that hook. Slug the guy and go for someone else. You have a 2/3 chance of finding an injured survivor that you can also slug, then it's just a matter of stopping one of the other 2 survivors.
Like it sucks to be in this position but truth be told you probably put yourself here by making bad plays.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1333338#Comment_1333338
So true (minus the "B line", it's "beeline").
I once faced a Meg who did exactly that. She simply ignored my attempts at mindgaming her and kept running, like a real Meg. In other words, the only winning move is not to play.
Exactly. She can't mind game you if you have no mind to game.
This works against a lot of killers in fact, especially 110 killers (and Nurse). It's more risky against Huntress and Deathslinger, you have to time it properly to get enough distance to put stuff between you, but it still works. A lot of the time you can bait a killer to think you are camping a pallet or running the loop, then just bolt to another tile. By the time they realize you left, you already have a massive amount of distance. Against Spirit this forces her to use her entire phase to catch up, negating her ability to do short bursts or mind game you at all.
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@johnmwarner said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1333266#Comment_1333266
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1333280#Comment_1333280
The first chase you’re blind but after that you know what she did the first time so you assume she’s going to do it again and do the opposite. Or you assume she’s going to assume you do the opposite and she’ll react to that.
You call that guessing If you want I call it a mind game.
Its like poker if a guy bets really big and you see he bluffs and then bets really big again later is he bluffing again or was the first time to set you up?
In baseball if a pitcher had thrown a first fastball when you last set batted is he going to do it again or will he switch it up.
Again you can call these guesses Or coin flops but anyone who’s ever played sports or games will tell you these things aren’t pure luck. Blaming everything on luck is just making excuses for losing.
I... wasn't calling it guesing.
There are a limited number of things she can be doing. Usually you have several options that would counter all or most of those things, so you pick the best one. Assume she is both phasing after you and standing still.
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@Theetis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1333280#Comment_1333280
All the scenarios you're presenting assume that the Spirit is a dumbass that falls for these tricks 100% of the time. A good Spirit will not just waste most of her power bar to enable such silly 'jukes' from survivors. A good Spirit will use her power in short bursts and abuse the stupidly short cooldown of her power, forcing the survivor to win several coinflips during a span of about 30 seconds if they want to "outplay" her.
Sorry, but even Nurse is more interactive and interesting to get chased by than a yelling katana girl that makes you just play the lottery during chases.
If she is using her power in burst then just B line for the next loop. She comes out of phase way behind you and has to follow at 110. Eventually you will force her to use her entire power bar. The reason this tactic even works is because most survivors stay at the loop.
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@Theetis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1333251#Comment_1333251
Yes, just get better at flipping coins.
If you think it's a coin flip you just don't understand how to play against her. I bet you are one of those "but you don't know if she is phase or not". You don't need to know this actually.
There are only a finite number of things she can actually do. If you see her stand still she is A) standing still, B) phase walking. If you just run to the next tile then you beat A because now you gained distance and unless she has duration/speed add-ons chances are she won't be able to catch up if she starts phasing AFTER the fact. If you break LOS of the husk and then bait a vault or backtrack, you beat B. You can do both at the same time and beat both.
If she is far behind you then chances are high she is phasing after you. Vault a window. It's really that simple. Most of the time she won't have enough to phase around to the other side of the window and hit you. So you vault the window, then run to the next next tile. Keep doing this and you can make a chase with Spirit last quite a while. The only way she can beat you is if she has both MDR and Amulet, which is unlikely (not to mention that if she does you can more effectively back track or take unusual pathing since she can't see scratch marks).
But sure, it's a coin flip. Just guess! Because she can do 10 things at once. Okay.
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Imagine not even trying to learn how to play against your opponent then continuing to call them overpowered.
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@JustCats said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1333030#Comment_1333030
Just because you can be a bad teammate doesn't mean you're not on a team. This is kind of a fundamental aspect of the game. Your fates are 100% tied together as it gets exponentially harder to escape if you lose a teammate. I mean, come on guy this is core to the game design.
Nobody's talking about removing all of the defenses survivors have, we're literally just talking about keeping some pallets not safe. The game already affords survivors all the advantages in the game EXCEPT FOR IN A CHASE, where the killer originally, and ideally, would have the advantage. That's why the killer hunts the survivors in the first place. It's to isolate them and get them on their own. Pallets and windows are there to give survivors A chance in the chase, not EVERY chance.
If you want chases to all have fair and equal opportunities for each individual survivor, then you've got to be willing to give up the advantage survivors have in the rest of the game. That means, no swf/parties and a comparable Entity timer that makes non-completion of gens within a time limit a failure state for survivors and a win for the killer. It means you shouldn't be able to unhook, and shouldn't be able to heal the other survivors. If we're doing a straight 1v1v1v1 with equal and fair opportunities for everyone then you shouldn't be able to help anyone but yourself.
But we're not talking about equal and fair opportunities for everyone, we're talking about making the game easier for survivors and harder for killers. I am already a killer main because the game is already too easy on survivors. I want to have fun playing survivor. I bought this game with the expectation of being a survivor main. I want to feel tension and anxiety and fear - it's ostensibly a horror game. But in order to get any tension or anxiety I am forced to play killer. Because it's not scary as a survivor after like two games, which is about all you need to play to realize that you can just run around in a circle around a pile of garbage if the killer ever finds you. You'll either make it out just fine or spend enough time doing laps that the killer has a serious uphill battle and your team will probably win even if he gets you. Yeah, you can get better at running laps. Which means you can just get better at extending the unfair advantage. It's not fun for me to know that the game isn't a fair fight and that my opponent needs to be 2x as skilled as me to even have a chance.
This is not a killer community versus survivor community issue. I don't want more 4ks. The whole point is that I don't want the game too easy, because I want to enjoy playing survivor.
"Your fates are 100% tied together as it gets exponentially harder to escape if you lose a teammate."
No. If our fates were tied together then you lose means I lose every time. But that's not the case.
Deathgarden is a TEAM GAME because you either win AS A TEAM or lose AS A TEAM. You can't escape on your own and win. In DBD you can, therefore our fates are not tied together. Just because it becomes more difficult for me to escape if you die does not mean our fates are tied together.
I can escape, you can die. I can pip, you can depip. I can do nothing productive, you can do 5 gens. What happens to you does not DIRECTLY affect me. It is indirect, as in now there are less survivors to do gens and therefore more work I have to put in to finish them. But even then, I don't even need to do gens. I can play for hatch and let the other 3 bleed out on the floor if I wanted.
"Nobody's talking about removing all of the defenses survivors have, we're literally just talking about keeping some pallets not safe."
These are the same thing. Having unsafe pallets is pointless. What purpose do they serve? You drop the pallet, you get hit. You don't drop the pallet you get hit. It might as well not even be there. It makes no sense to have these garbage pallets because it does nothing for the survivor. It just wastes a potential safe pallet spawn.
"If you want chases to all have fair and equal opportunities for each individual survivor, then you've got to be willing to give up the advantage survivors have in the rest of the game. "
Bro READ MY COMMENTS. Things I've said:
1) Gen speed needs to be slower.
2) Super safe no mind game pallets need to be changed.
Tell me in what world is that not me asking for survivors to give up some advantages? Clearly these things need to be fixed AS MUCH AS UNSAFE WORTHLESS PALLETS. Both ends need to be brought in.
"I want to feel tension and anxiety and fear - it's ostensibly a horror game."
This is only true for the first maybe 50 hours of playing the game. After that it is like any other PvP game where the players look at the game as a game. If you want a horror game go play The Evil Within. DBD is a PvP game FIRST and a horror game SECOND. To use this as the basis for any type of gameplay change is just absolutely absurd. Even other gimmicky horror games like F13 or Last Year don't maintain their horror feeling as you become more experienced in the game.
"It's not fun for me to know that the game isn't a fair fight and that my opponent needs to be 2x as skilled as me to even have a chance."
Because there are too many SAFE NO MIND GAME PALLETS. Next time you play survivor against a good killer, run to a 4 wall jungle gym. Then come back and tell me that it was easy. It's not. It takes a lot of skill to outplay the killer at 4 walls BECAUSE THE PALLET IS ONLY SEMI SAFE AND THERE IS A LOT OF MIND GAME POTENTIAL. There are other pallets like this around the game, but this is the best example.
Also if you don't like looping sorry to say maybe DBD is not the game for you. Looping is a core dynamic of the game and integral to the skill for either side. Otherwise a chase would just be survivor runs in straight line and killer follows them like a puppy. That's literally the alternative you are asking for.
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@4fingeredfreddy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331072#Comment_1331072
actually believe it or not, the game is supposed to be killer heavy. Because in the end, its a 1v4. meaning the killer literally needs to have more utility than individual survivors. meaning giving survivors another potential loop point on every map yall think is killer heavy instead of getting imaginitive because youre lazy would literally break the game and no one would want to play killer after getting to around rank 12 because you would just constantly lose. The devs in my opinion have given survivors more than enough since ive started playing. games are just getting harder and harder for killers the more that yall complain. So please either stop, or be rational.
"actually believe it or not, the game is supposed to be killer heavy."
ACTUALLY BELIEVE IT OR NOT, it's not.
The game is a PvP not PvE. It's supposed to be balanced for both sides. Killer is already an unstoppable force that persists throughout the entire trial. Survivors can be REMOVED FROM THE GAME. That right there is why the whole 1v4 thing is not a problem. Because it's not a real 1v4. Survivors are not a team. They have the same goals but if you die it doesn't affect me except making it harder for me to survive. But you can die and I can escape. You depip while I pip. Our fates are not tied together. Hell I can sandbag you or rat you out to the killer and get rewarded for it. I can leave you to bleed out on the ground while I hide and wait for hatch. I can just YEET out the game with a key and leave you without a care. I can be as much of your enemy as the killer.
So when survivors can literally get each other killed, and can be removed from the game reducing it to a 1v3 then 1v2 then 1v1, THE GAME IS NOT A REALY 1v4! It's just not. The idea it is comes from killer mains that just use it to justify removing all the defenses survivors have so they can get more 4ks. Tell me no and you are lying.
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@LordRegal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331675#Comment_1331675
Can you explain to me please what the appeal is in running in circles? It's something I've never understood about the mentality of people who enjoy it. Chasing, sure, I can see how that's fun. But not the running in circles part.
Not trying to be disrespectful, I genuinely don't get it.
That is the chase. It's not just running in circles though. It's mind gaming and outplaying the killer. It's only running in circles when there is no mind game and the killer brute forces the loop. Which in itself isn't that much fun to do something so predictable and one dimensional, but you are still getting chased, so then sometimes it becomes a matter of "can I get one more loop?" If the killer whiffs the hit or respects the pallet you can usually get that extra loop.
By looking at it as "just running in a circle" you oversimplify a very complex dynamic. You might see improvement if you stop thinking of it that way and work at it, you will see it's more than that (at most loops).
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@LordRegal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331612#Comment_1331612
"So you don't find hiding boring? Or being in a chase you can't actually win? Those both sound like really boring options."
I love hiding in this game, my favorite survivor moments are well-crafted movements around a gen I've been working on when the killer knows I'm there SOMEWHERE but can't find me. Legitimately the most fun I have as a survivor.
I also have been playing on and off since 2017 and can't loop for ######### so for me most chases are going to be losses, and quickly, when I'm surviving. Unless it's a Nurse or another killer where mindgames matter more than ability to run in a circle tightly (which I cannot do)...as a result Spirits are fun for me, amusingly enough.
So, yeah. If I didn't have fun I wouldn't be coming back to the game time and time again, and I absolutely fall into your cookie-cutter "this would be boring" options and have active fun doing it. Red ranks, by the way. Can't loop, get through more games than not without a single chase against me, but an iri altruism, lightbringer, and survivalist.
You are the exception not the rule. The major draw to this game for most players is the chase.
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@JustCats said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331651#Comment_1331651
Those chases seriously favor the killer only if you try to loop the unsafe pallets like they're safe. Don't... do that and you should be fine. They still work to delay the killer. They still stun the killer. They just can't be cheesed - sorry, looped - the same way.
Hawkins is definitely harder as a survivor. That, again, is why it's one of my favorite maps to play as a survivor. I lose more there than I do on other maps, but it's 100 times more fun. Still plenty possible to win, just have to play smarter and utilize more than just the environmental advantage survivors get to do it.
No they favor the killer whether you loop or not. Have you actually played survivor on this map against a competent killer? Your options are 1) loop and get hit, 2) drop the pallet and get hit, 3) keep running and get hit. No matter what you do you get hit, and almost every pallet is unsafe. There are 2 in the one room with the little staircase and the one pallet by portal room that are safe. THREE safe pallets and 10 super unsafe ones.
"Still plenty possible to win, just have to play smarter and utilize more than just the environmental advantage survivors get to do it."
What "advantage"??? You have no defense against the killer. You just get hit guaranteed in about 15-20 seconds because there's no pallets and no windows to use.
"They just can't be cheesed - sorry, looped - the same way."
This says that you just don't like looping. Looping is how the game is played, there is nothing wrong with it EXCEPT when the survivor is super safe and there is no mind game. Example, Z pallets on Blood Lodge. Those are lame. But 4 walls are both loopable and can be mind gamed. They are both safe and unsafe depending on how well you or the killer play. Those are the type of loops we need more of. Not Z pallets on Blood Lodge, not Hawkins pallets. Every loop should have a mind game to it. THAT is fair.
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@JustCats said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331612#Comment_1331612
Just a point - you can play with the survivors on your team as a team even if you're not SWF.
I'm not talking about making chases seriously favor the killer, I'm just not about giving survivors even more ways to avoid getting hit and even more ways to lessen their concern about the killer. You should be able to win a chase but it should require overcoming odds stacked against you. The entire rest of the game is stacked against the killer for this exact reason.
With the current gameplay design yeah, hiding would be boring. As I said that's why I rarely play survivor. They'd have to make some adjustments but the bones are there to flip the script and have the survivors scared of the monster (in a fair way) at least as much as the monster is scared of the survivors (which is the only source of real tension in this game at the moment). That would be a different post, but I'd much prefer more of a cat and mouse stealthy game than one where survivors don't really care if the monster sees them.
I just feel like escaping from Michael Myers or any of these monsters should feel like a hero moment and not an expected outcome. Michael Myers is supposed to catch you. If you escaped that means you did something special, not because you won a skill contest of equal opportunity. The movie is about Laurie somehow getting away even though she should have been killed - she beat the odds. It's Halloween, not SportsCenter. The rest of the gameplay aside from chases is about giving the survivors means to even the odds as a group; if you completely even the odds to an individual level there is no game, it just becomes "how hard can we beat up on this lone creature."
So no, the game is already soft enough on survivors as it is, and probably about as hard as it needs to be on killers. I don't think they need safer pallets and I'm fine with the unsafe ones.
"I'm not talking about making chases seriously favor the killer"
But... that's what this thread is about. The super unsafe no mind game pallets that appear mostly on Hawkins, but also on Saloon, Badham, and seems more maps going forward. These pallets shouldn't exist any more than the super safe ones with no mind game.
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@JustCats said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331507#Comment_1331507
I'm not saying it should be an auto-down for killers in a chase. I'm saying it should generally be harder - in a chase - for the survivor to avoid getting hit than it should be for the killer to get that hit.
I get that you don't approach survivor as a team game, that's fine. Plenty of people do. I'm saying that if we made your game easier, the killer would have equal opportunity to catch you and you could have fun, but virtually no avenue to victory versus the numerous players that DO approach survivor as a team effort.
I definitely don't want auto 4k's as a killer. But I also don't want to be bored as a survivor. I'd like to require the same kind of tense gameplanning and awareness and dread for the survivors that the killer role has. I don't want a one dimensional cardio contest around a pile of trash being the "skill test." The skill contest shouldn't be in making the killer bored or frustrated enough to abandon the looney toons chase, it should be in actually.. uh.. getting away from the killer. Or managing to stay alive long enough for your teammates to complete objectives when the odds are stacked against you. Right now - and especially if every pallet is semi-safe - survivors accomplish both of those by default. No real skill required. Just don't make any braindead errors and at the very least you've wasted a significant amount of killer time. If you're lucky and guess right on the "skill test" you probably also get away.
I said earlier, or somewhere else, that scratchmarks are a big problem with this - they need to go or be drastically reduced in utility. I'm not all about buffing killers; that's not what I want to see. I just think survivors are waaaay too safe in what is supposed to be an asymmetric horror game. The general consensus shouldn't be "I play survivor to relax and killer when I want to push myself."
Queue times are already pretty high for survivors. Encouraging a gameplay loop designed around making the killer have an unpleasant experience because everything is stacked against them - they have no team, they have a time limit, they can't use the environment as well, etc. etc. is just a recipe for longer queue times and greater disparities in killer skill level. Creating an environment where they also not only have to outplay a team of four people in the larger context of the game, but also require that they have no advantage in individual encounters... I mean, do survivors need more help, at this point?
I'd like to see something done with gens as well, but remember that a decent group of swf have 16 perk slots between them to share. The game (and the perks) are not designed around comms, but they're a reality. Even if they don't concentrate on genrush it still requires much more from the killer to make any progress as it does for the survivors. Making it even easier than it already is for survivors in a chase... I don't see the point.
"I get that you don't approach survivor as a team game, that's fine. Plenty of people do."
Including me. I play SWF almost 90% of the time, at least 2 man. I solo too but I'd rather play killer most of the time instead. Plus stats show that MAJORITY of players are solo. Only some are SWF.
My SWF group still loses, and when we lose it's either because we didn't do gens fast enough, the killer did a good job of shutting down the gens (eg. Forever Freddy with Pop), the killer got a massive snowball, or some combination of the three. The problem is not that chases last too long, it's that gens are too fast. Artificially shortening chases in a way that SERIOUSLY favors the killer will just kill the game. We don't need that. It's not fun to be in a chase with a killer when you know there is no way to escape the chase. And it's no fun to win a chase as killer that was basically given to you. Hence why I made this thread "unsafe pallets are lame". It just is. It's lame for survivor because nothing you do matters. It's lame for killer because it's not rewarding.
What we need is something to prevent survivors from just plowing through gens, or at the very least from doing that so early the killer never even gets a chance to get a proper foothold on the game. If gen speeds were address, or (as it seems the devs are doing) some kind of trial start up mechanic is added, then SWF becomes a moot point. Killers have PLENTY to beat SWF, it's only that they punch out 3 gens in the first chase that makes them a threat. If that didn't happen it wouldn't matter that the killer is outnumbered because they can still snowball at any point from good plays and/or capitalizing on the survivor's mistakes.
"I definitely don't want auto 4k's as a killer. But I also don't want to be bored as a survivor."
So you don't find hiding boring? Or being in a chase you can't actually win? Those both sound like really boring options.
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@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331507#Comment_1331507
...You know the point of bloodlust was to stop infinite loops as survivors being caught IS PART OF THE GAMEPLAY.
Looping is meant to waste the killer's time not make you untouchable.
Look up old game play of when nearly all pallets could be mind gamed. Unless the survivor messes up its a 5 gen chase and a 0k.
Also no matter how much you might deny it its a team game for survivors or else survivors would be allowed to turn on each other/sandbag without penalty which is not the case.
Ps. There are video series of survivors in 4 man SWF with the old pallets of them getting over 100 4 man escapes in a row!
Bloodlust was a band aid mechanic. Getting caught is part of the gameplay, but it's not supposed to happen regardless of what either party does. It's supposed to happen through skill of the killer/misplays of the survivor. Escaping a chase is part of the gameplay too, else there would be no exit gates and survivors would just always die every game.
Looping only makes you untouchable at safe pallets with no mind games. At semi-safe pallets like 4 walls, you are not untouchable. Only if you make consistent reads is that the case, and as such you SHOULD be rewarded with not being caught since you are outplaying your opponent.
Old gameplay where all pallets could be mind gamed? Yea this is just flat out false. Coldwind maps all had cracks in the walls where you could see killers. Cow tree you could see the killer the entire time. Autohaven Z pallet loops are basically the same as they have always been. MacMil/Coldwind/Autohaven jungle gyms are basically unchanged from how they were years ago. What you are talking about is ACTUAL infinites, not mind game pallets.
You can sandbag each other without penalty. It only becomes bannable when you are working with the killer. As in you are friends, in a party chat/discord, helping each other out and they let you go. But in a normal game, if I rat you out to the killer and they decide to let me go, there is absolutely no punishment for that. It's a dick move, but not bannable.
You mean Marth's Depip squad? Bro look at my post count. Look at when my account was made. I've been around this game since the beginning. I KNOW about depip squad. But there are three problems here. 1) This was from a much older version of the game where things like Pop, Corrupt and Infectious didn't exist. What applied then does not necessarily apply now. 2) No one plays to just rush gens and leave. Nobody. Survivors will try to save each other and even SWF's will mess up. Plus with emblems, if you play like this yea sure, you escape but you will depipp YOURSELF in the process. 3) They had ABSOLUTELY no controls for this "experiment". They just got matched with any and all sorts of killers. Not all killers have the same goals to 4k every game. Most do, but sometimes people play killer for dailies or to practice. Point being there are a lot of holes in his whole methodology and it holds no actual merit, especially 2 years later when the game is quite different.
There is also a series of games by Scott Jund where he 4k's 40+ games in a row as speed limiter Bubba. He didn't set out to prove anything, but the fact that he could even do this suggests that if a killer REALLY wanted to kill all 4 survivors every game without regard for BP or emblems, they could do it. Like really all you have to do is pick Nurse with Ebony, Infectious, Sloppy, Deerstalker, and another game slowing perk like Corrupt, slug everyone and you win in 2 minutes with 8k BP and depip from it.
@BlueFang said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331511#Comment_1331511
And said old footage was when the game was a small indie project, the original vision of being hide and sneak, along with a misguided knowledge. Comparing DBD now to DBD of 2017 and especially DBD 2016 is a joke. The game was absurd and broken for both sides you had the infinite sabos, the machine gun killers, insta down hatchets, 115 movement speed Goku Nurse. Yeah if you wanna go down this rabbit hole we'll dig to China and back again
I don't care about the depip squad's adventures that version of the game no longer exists. A balance has to be struck between power, agency, and the ability to actually PVP. Demanding the game balance heavily for killers just because of issues existing in the past is not only absurd but it is a poisonous mindset. We are owed NO special treatment just because of what we play other then what is needed to make a balanced game for BOTH sides. And that does not mean nerfing the other into oblivion
The chasing is the game the LMB/right trigger clicking and holding down the hook button is the destination not the journey. Do you play games to have a title screen say you win? You play them for their GAMEPLAY not a sticker that says you win
Hey I'm making like 4 more forum accounts right now to upvote this some more.
(PS. I'm not mods don't hurt me it was joke)
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@JustCats said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331461#Comment_1331461
I can't argue with you if you're saying the game isn't 4v1 its 1v1+1+1+1. Game is absolutely impossible to make fair for the killer at that point, because if it's balanced to where a single survivor has an equal and fair opportunity in every encounter then all it takes is the survivors working together to always win - or at least demand FAR more from the killer than the game demands from the survivor.
You can make the game fair and equal for each individual versus the killer, but because the survivors are, in actuality, on a team, then you're looking for a game where 4 people who can beat the killer on their own get to team up against him.
Which is almost what we already have. Notice the consternation about SWF and how an average group of well-coordinated SWF can easily take down a reasonably skilled killer. It's already much easier to play survivor than killer, I don't understand trying to make it even easier.
You are literally just asking for the game to hand wins to the killer because they happen to be outnumbered.
Survivors are NOT a team. Again, if you lose it doesn't mean I lose. I have a higher chance to lose, but my fate is not tied to yours. If we were talking Deathgarden, where the runners have to have X amount escape to win then yes, they are a team. But that's not the case at all.
"Game is absolutely impossible to make fair for the killer at that point"
Did you read my comment? The game has become more and more fair for killers over the years. When we get this early game warm up mechanic I'm fairly positive that will be the point when the game becomes almost entirely balanced.
SWF isn't the problem, the problem is that the gens can just be done too quickly robbing the killer of the time needed to kill survivors. Artificially shortening chases by handing wins to killer is not the fix we need. The fix will come with changing the gens. Remove gens from the equation and just pit 4 survivors against the killer and the killer actually has a lot of power. It's the reason overly altruistic SWF teams often lose, because the killer can slug them all and effectively win the game. There is very little they can do about it.
If gens couldn't be done so fast, SWF would inherently be a lot less powerful.
@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/158719/unsafe-pallets-are-lame-as-killer
Part of the reason why there are so many unsafe pallets is that without having some pallets favoring the killer it tends to be a 5 gen loop vs any good survivor when the killer isn't playing a meta killer who can bypass/Make the pallets unsafe like freddy/Spirit.
The game isn't a 1 on 1 its a 4 on 1 so the killer SHOULD have an advantage on MOST pallets or else non meta killers would auto lose every game which is what happened in the past.
Mind you I am not against strong pallets like cow tree or killer shack(Unless they are back to back but that's a different issue entirely) just trying to balance ALL pallets for 1 v 1 in a 4 v 1 game is a fool's errand.
But it's not explicitly 4v1. That's what I keep saying.
If you give the killer wins in a chase by design you are just making the game basically a PvE experience. What is the point of playing survivor if you are destined to get caught every chase?
Furthermore, if a survivor takes you on a 5 gen run THAT IS ON YOU. It's not the game's fault you got outplayed over and over again. You should have ended the chase a long time ago and went for another target that was easier to catch, or force survivors to waste resources (ie. pallets) so that future chases would end quicker.
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@bingbongboi90 said:
But the thing is with looking at maps, there shouldnt be only looked at the amount of pallets or how safe they are but also what the map looks like.
On a map as dead dawg saloon, there is a lot of hiding spots with these bushes which makes it harder for the killer to Find survivor. This environment isnt at the game or Hawkins. That's why i think these maps need a bit more safe pallets then maps like dead dawg saloon. Because survivors can only rely on these safe pallets in maps like the game.
But dead dawg saloon is Just in general a mess of a map because of the bad implementation of breakable walls.
Saloon isn't nearly as bad as Hawkins when it comes to pallet design. The fact you can hide better, yes is a good point. My main issue with Saloon is the Saloon itself. It has 2 windows, 1 leads to a dead end and the other is super strong until the killer breaks a wall. I honestly don't mind that but I would trade one of those windows and some breakable walls for a pallet inside the Saloon. Sure, the window is good but then it becomes doo doo butter once the killer breaks certain walls. But then in doing so it becomes very killer sided, and the survivors have no way to break other walls to make it 50/50.
The rest of the map isn't so bad. Most pallets aren't super safe or unsafe. Some are safe but can be made unsafe by breaking a wall. Some of the pallets around the edges of the map need to be made a tad more safe. But otherwise it's fine. They just need to fix the Saloon really.
Hawkins and to a lesser extent Badham need big changes though, on both ends. IDK about the SH map, it looks like most pallets are unsafe, which is why I've made this thread because we need to make this a point that the game is actually better with a medium amount of semi-safe mind-game pallets than it is with a bunch of trash pallets or a few safe pallets.
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@JustCats said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331346#Comment_1331346
Again, you're approaching this as if it's a game of four individual 1v1's. If the killer wins the mind game and it's last hook the game isn't over for the survivor team, it's over for that survivor. That's part of (or should be) the downside to playing on the team in an asymmetric game.
The balance in the chase shouldn't be weighted towards the two players but the consequences to the entire game. If you make the chase mechanics not favor either side, then you are only giving advantages to the survivor. If every chase, played at equal skill between both killer and individual survivor, resulted in a 50/50 split, then the survivors gain FAR more benefit from that as a TEAM in the context of the entire GAME than the killer does.
I get that survivors don't want to get hooked and they don't want to die. But we are approaching, if not already, at a point to where killers can't down people fast enough to win the war of attrition if the survivor team is coordinated at all, whether through swf or not.
400 seconds is less than seven minutes. How long do you want each chase to be? I get that it's all fun and games for survivors - chases are fun! Come get me let's test our skills! For a survivor, you might have a couple chases a game and I get that they're exciting and fun and you want the chance to outwit the killer etc etc etc.
For a killer, chases are a chore. A killer goes on every chase. Winning a mindgame is a relief, not a victory, because they're still under a tremendous time pressure that the survivors just don't deal with at all. The war of attrition is played on the survivor's terms, not the killer's.
How about this, as compromise. You can have the 50/50s at every pile of trash to play duck duck goose around (sorry, "mind game") if they implement a general match timer for the Entity - like when the doors open, but from the beginning (obviously it would be longer - say roughly 30 minutes). If long chases with fair and equal opportunity for both sides is important, it shouldn't ONLY benefit survivors if the chase is long. There should be a downside of not working towards the escape for the survivor as much as there's a downside of not killing anybody for the killer.
Edit: In other words, if the killer has the advantage, that's fine because survivors control the time crunch. If nobody has the advantage, then everybody should feel the time crunch.
"If the killer wins the mind game and it's last hook the game isn't over for the survivor team, it's over for that survivor."
Except survivors are not actually a team. They have the same collective goal, but the outcome for one survivor does not equal the outcome for another survivor. It's in their better interest to keep other survivors alive, because the longer any individual survivor is alive the greater the chances that all survivors have to escape, but they are not explicitly a team. Even in an SWF, if you die and I escape those are two vastly different results. It's unreasonable to treat the game a a straight 1v4 because the outcomes can be different, and because majority of players play solo. It's not a straigh 1v1 either, it's a mix of both actually. You seem to be under the impression I'm explicitly asking for the game to focus on 1v1, I'm not. I'm only presenting an argument for this new very bad pallet/loop design philosophy. I never mentioned anything about other aspects of the game, but just to humor you, I do believe that survivor objectives need to be looked at. Gens go way to fast and it's unfair that killers have so little time to get any kind of pressure going. Thus they resort to camping/tunneling/slugging because it's all they can do really. That part needs improvement ON TOP OF improvements to the loop designs.
"The balance in the chase shouldn't be weighted towards the two players but the consequences to the entire game."
See but the "entire game" isn't the same for either side. For killer, the whole duration of the trial is the "entire game". For survivor, the time they are alive is "the entire game". So when one sided is already weighted to have a potentially shorter game than the other that means chases need to be weighted to the killer and the survivor they are chasing. If you give killer these built in "wins" in a chase then you're just making the survivor's game shorter with no way to change that, regardless of how well they play. They just have this timer above their head that says "you die in 2 minutes" or whatever. That's not exactly fair to them.
For killer a long chase is their decision. If you choose to chase one person for 5 gens, that's on you. It would be wiser to go for someone else and have a shorter chase. You also get heavily rewarded for ending chases faster because it means survivors die faster. For each survivor that dies, the game shifts HEAVILY in the killer's favor.
"But we are approaching, if not already, at a point to where killers can't down people fast enough to win the war of attrition if the survivor team is coordinated at all, whether through swf or not."
No we aren't. With no god loops, less safe pallets, and fewer pallets overall it's becoming increasingly easier and easier for killers. Every action they can do has been made faster over the years, while everything survivors can do is being made slower. Gens could be done EVEN FASTER in the past, yet killers had fewer tools to win in the time they had. Now they have more time than ever, and more advantages than ever, and that's still not good enough? Bro do you just want survivors to spawn on hooks or something?
The game should require skill from both sides. The game in it's current state is WAY WAY more balanced than it ever has been. Again, gen times need to still be looked at, but the devs have said they are working on some kind of early game warm up period like EGC is for end game.
"For a killer, chases are a chore."
The fact you look at chases as a chore suggests that you don't want to put in the effort to outplay your opponent. You just want the chases handed to you. Again, do you just want survivors spawned on hooks? Because that's what this sounds like.
Chases ARE the core dynamic in the game. They are where the true skill lies for either party. They are where the game is the most fun. It is the reason people play the game past the initial spooky factor for first timers.
"If long chases with fair and equal opportunity for both sides is important"
You are completely misunderstanding my points here. I never said "long chases are important" I'm saying "balanced/fair chases are important". Those are two wildly different things.
If a chase is long it benefits survivors. If it is short, it benefits killer. There is no getting around this. If the chase is artificially long/short (by means of super safe/unsafe pallets without mindgames) then we might as well just replace the other side with bots. That's basically what you are asking for here. I'm asking for balance opportunities for both sides. I win plenty of games as killer and survivor. I lose games too. That's fine. But when the game is built for me to lose or win, where the ######### is the fun in that?
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You have it backwards there dude.
Adren, Pop, Surge and Deliverance are all REWARD perks because of the fact they have a prerequisite.
- Adren REWARDS a survivor for doing gens.
- Deliverance REWARDS a survivor for a safe hook rescue and for not having been put on a hook before that rescue was made.
- Pop REWARDS the killer with more time (by adding more time to survivor objectives) when they get a hook.
- Surge REWARDS the killer for downing a survivor near a running gen.
Rancor, NOED, Decisive Strike and Unbreakable all PUNISH the enemy for making mistakes.
- Rancor PUNISHES the obsession for getting caught at end game.
- NOED PUNISHES survivors for rushing gens and not doing totems.
- DS PUNISHES the killer for picking up a survivor that was hooked in the last 60 seconds.
- Unbreakable PUNISHES the killer for excessive slugging.
The reason you have a problem with these perks (Rancor and Surge though???) is because you are looking at it backwards. DS does not reward a survivor for anything (unless they successfully bait the killer into picking them up), it's there to punish killers that just pick you up like a bot. The kind the refuse to change tactics. Just like NOED punishes survivors for not changing tactics to do totems. Neither of these perks "reward bad play", they punish bad plays for the opposite side.
Soul Guard is a punish perk. It punishes killers for excessive slugging. This will be more common if they are running Devour or NOED, and therefore those killers get punished EVEN MORE for it.
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Giving the killer DEEZ BAGS.