thesuicidefox
thesuicidefox
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@JustCats said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331220#Comment_1331220
Yes, the survivors depend on their teammates for a lot of things. Play a game of 4v1 basketball, even a game where someone who is very good versus a bunch of people who are only kind of good, and tell me how that goes. Being able to depend on your teammates is the advantage, it's not a liability. It's also the primary source of challenge on any team. Balancing that out so that you have a team AND if that breaks down you're fine by yourself is just ridiculously stacking the deck.
The problem is that you are demanding that killers "EARN that power through skillful play and proper tactics" while wanting to give survivors every advantage with very little requirement. Looping is braindead easy. Yes, you can be good at it and be virtually uncatchable, but it's relatively trivial to be decent enough at it to waste at least a minute of time. Meanwhile the other "skill" requirement is not blowing a gen skill check.
The skill for survivors ought to be in not getting chased at all. The skill for survivors ought to be in extending a chase past 30 seconds when they should be at a disadvantage at that point. Otherwise you are expecting everything from the killer, who is alone, and next to nothing from the team of survivors, who have teammates who can help.
The challenge for survivors should be in finding a way to work together (the game balance is already massively in their favor if they do). Trying to balance the game so that survivors don't have to depend on each other gives them not only an equal and fair chance in a 1v1 versus the killer but ALSO a near unbeatable advantage if they do work together at all.
"while wanting to give survivors every advantage with very little requirement"
No I want both sides to have to exert skill in order to win against their opponent. Super safe pallets with no mind games, and super UNSAFE pallets with no mind games do nothing to that end.
"Being able to depend on your teammates is the advantage, it's not a liability."
It's both. You outnumber the killer and therefore can do multiple things at once while they are limited to one thing at a time, but you have nothing to actually stop the killer from doing what they are going to do except evading them. If Bubba puts you on a hook and face camps with his chainsaw rev'd, there isn't anything you can do. The BEST that can be done is someone saves you with BT and trades a hook. Likewise, if the killer slugs multiple survivors, there are less people that you can depend on and a greater chance that killer kills everyone. It's part of the reason why Unbreakable exists and why slugging in general has been nerfed to be less effectively, because previously it was simply too strong of a tactic to secure a 4k.
"Looping is braindead easy."
Yes because you can see each other and/or because the pallet is super safe. Looping a long wall is easy because you can see the killer coming around each corner with plenty of time to make a move. Looping a 4 wall is NOT as easy because you lack the information required to react the same way and thus you have to commit to an option. If you guess wrong, you get hit.
Any loop that is both long enough to loop but short enough that the killer can land a hit if you weren't committed to a direction AND one where you cannot see each other the entire time are no easy loops to do. It takes skill, for both sides, to win those loops.
"The skill for survivors ought to be in not getting chased at all."
Bro there is little to no skill in hiding. There really isn't. In some instances there is, or knowing how to maneuver around while ALSO avoiding a chase is, but it is very easy to straight up hide from the killer. We shouldn't be encouraging that as the main method of survivor defense because it's easier than looping AND it's boring, particularly for the killer. The chase is where the real skill in the game lies.
"The skill for survivors ought to be in extending a chase past 30 seconds when they should be at a disadvantage at that point. Otherwise you are expecting everything from the killer, who is alone, and next to nothing from the team of survivors, who have teammates who can help."
Yes, skill in being able to consistently mind game/read your opponent. There is no mind game at any Z pallet loops on Blood Lodge. NONE. You can see each other. The killer's only chance is to bloodlust, and really that's not even going to cut it at the end of the day. They are forced to break the pallet and let you get to another loop.
I expect survivors to be able to mind game/read the killer and commit to an option. I also expect loops to not basically give the killer a hit regardless of what the survivor does. The latter is a problem with Hawkins, also Saloon and some of Badham. It's becoming the new trend for the devs to make loops like these where, whether you drop the pallet or not, whether you loop or not, you get hit. There is not avoiding a hit at these pallets, merely delaying it in some cases. That's stupid. Like old Legion level of stupid. How is it fair to basically guarantee the killer a hit anymore than it is to guarantee the survivor DOES NOT get hit? Neither of those should be a thing.
You seem to be under the impression I want every loop to be safe. I said several times SEMI-SAFE. As in if played perfectly it's safe, but in order to do that you have win 100% of the mind games and/or bait the killer 100% efficiently. Both of which are effectively impossible, and therefore it comes down to survivor skill V killer skill. With the exception of maybe 1 pallet on the map (eg. shack) no pallet should guarantee either side anything. It should be EARNED THROUGH SKILLFUL PLAY AND TACTICS, as I said before.
"So why is it important for survivors to have an equal and fair chance?"
Because otherwise they might as well be bots. This is a pvp game, and those should never favor one side over the other. Those that do are party games, gimmicks. Mario Party comes to mind.
"Here's the thing. The consequence for a survivor if they lose the mind game is what - they get hit. Maybe this downs them, maybe they get hooked. Worst case, it's giving up 1/12 of the killer's win condition."
The consequence is that they could die. What if it's a basement hook against Bubba or Huntress? What if the killer has a mori or Devour. What if it is last hook? What if they just slug you and then catch someone else? WHAT IF THE PEOPLE YOU ARE DEPENDING ON DID NOT DO GENS WHILE YOU WERE CHASED???
Survivors have to collectively spend 400 seconds repairing gens. It can be less with perks and such, but basically that's how much time they have to put into their objective. On the other hand, a killer could, in theory, down all 4 survivors in under a minute. Granted that's likely not going to happen against good survivors, but the point is that killers can snowball a win WAY harder than survivors. If they lose a mind game it's not the end of the game. If a survivor loses a mind game, that very much could be the end of THEIR game.
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@JustCats said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331072#Comment_1331072
I think it's often ignored that having three other teammates is a massive thumb on the fairness scale. Equal and fair opportunities for both sides needs to keep that in account otherwise you just end up with one person playing four different 1v1's, balanced to be equal and fair, at the same time. Meanwhile the three teammates are free to continue to try and win the game with no opportunity, let alone equal and fair, for the killer.
Don't forget that the chase is part of the bigger picture of game design and does not happen in a vacuum. From the survivor POV, the chase is something that happens that prevents them from completing gens which they do with a PvE quicktime event versus a computer. The chase is the killer's gen completion, which they have to do versus a human being. Killers do not have equal and fair opportunities to interfere with the PvE gen completion mechanic outside of the 1v1 environment of a chase, and the ones that touch it at all seem to be the ones most complained about, whether that's Ruin, Forever Freddy, madness, or Legion mending.
The more effort you spend to make chases equal and fair the more advantage you give to the survivor side, if you do not give killers anything that impairs generator progress while they're chasing.
The thing is survivors depend on other survivors for a lot of things.
- If you are getting chased, you are depending on other survivors to do gens.
- If you are injured and do not have Self Care or a medkit, you are dependent on other survivors to get healed.
- If you are in dying state and do not have Unbreakable/No Mither you are dependent on other survivors to get revived.
- If you are on a hook and do not kobe or have Deliverance, you are dependent on other survivors to get rescued.'
Killer does not depend on anyone but themselves and exerts complete control over you once you are caught. They also have control over when people DO NOT die, so in the case of hatch all the killer needs to do is slug the third guy to prevent the fourth guy from getting hatch until they catch them.
Pallets and windows are survivors defenses against the killer. If you take them out of the game then every chase would end in roughly 30 seconds because all the killer would have to do is follow you. They have plenty of power on their side to win games, it's just that you will often have to play scummy against good survivors/SWF to gain that power. But they shouldn't inherently have power over survivors. That power needs to be EARNED through skillful play and proper tactics.
@Bovinity said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331072#Comment_1331072
That sounds good on paper, but it seems like you're just making every area equally safe. So it no longer really matters if a survivor pays attention to the area they're in, or where a survivor chooses to run or what area they got caught in, they're always right next to a strong pallet and decent loop.
There ought not be too many unsafe areas, but some are essential just from the perspective of gameplay design. And that's not even touching the fact that making areas safer would be a direct nerf to the other side.
Yes equally safe. Otherwise survivors just bolt to the absolute safest places on the map which are entirely too powerful and are forced to avoid the absolute unsafest areas of the map like the massive dead zones on most Autohaven maps. You get very one dimensional gameplay that way.
On some maps there is no place to run. You get found in a dead zone you are just gonna get hit, no matter what you do. Just like if you get found at shack chances are the killer will never get a hit on you until the pallet is gone. That's straight up predictable and lame. If every area was equally safe, then both sides have a fair chance to outplay the other. Obviously perfect balance is impossible, some areas will just always be safer/unsafer than others, but the gap between these areas currently is just massive. And now that they severely nerfed the god loops (which was necessary) they need to buff the dead zones or unsafe pallets to compensate.
The point is that every tile should be about the same fairness to survivor OR killer, and not heavily favor one or the other. Every loop should have a mind game attached to it, and every loop should be semi-safe, as in you have to commit to an option (as either side) and if you win the mind game you get the hit/don't get hit, and vice versa if you lose.
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@RizeAki said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/158719/unsafe-pallets-are-lame-as-killer
I mean tbh unsafe pallets still work out it’s “big brain” survivors who make them look dumb the ones who vault over and over giving a hit instead of dropping and running knowing it’s not safe to loop around
But all the killer has to do is go around and in most cases you don't get enough distance to get to another loop.
@4fingeredfreddy said:
you know, people do often forget that this game is supposed to be killer sided and that survival isnt necessary to pip as survivor. If you bring complete balance to the game in terms of 1v1 (as in 1 survivor vs the killer), it becomes nearly impossible for the killer to kill because youre outnumbered. THAT BEING SAID, I do believe that pallets should not be buffed in some areas, but instead removed entirely and be replaced with either loopable stracture to give the the survivor a better chance, or mildly open area to give the survivor room to dive hits. But i do not believe that they need to keep the same structure and just like raise walls around it or anything like that, because on some maps that were mentioned there are a fair amount of loops as it is that could be utilized to outplay the killer with proper play and perks.
LOL what? Killer sided? Sorry but no. Both sides should have equal and fair opportunities.
All we need are semi-safe pallets with mind games. We don't need any of this fancy nonsense that hasn't been tested. Every loop should have LOS blockers with some holes so that you can trick each other, a short side that is unsafe, and a long side that is semi-safe as it assumes you win the mind game but have to COMMIT to an option to do it.
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@NursesBootie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1330977#Comment_1330977
True. How about the badham loops with massive walls?
Tall walls are fine. But any loop where both players can see each other the entire time are stupid.
I don't think Badham is that great either. It's better than Hawkins, but there are still a lot of dumb loops on that map. House Of Pain is less bad since they blocked LOS through the stairs. It sort of has a mind game to it, but the pallet is still really safe.
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@NursesBootie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1330969#Comment_1330969
Yeah definitly agree. I personally think not many people understand hawkins truly. You can loop the killer for quite some time with just throwing pallets preemtively and creating infinites, because killers tend to leave pallets untouched on hawkins.
This only happens when certain doors are open to certain rooms. If you get bad RNG and one of those doors is closed there is no infinite that can be made from the pallet. This also assumes you are far enough ahead of the killer to preemptively throw the pallet. If they are too close they can just shimmy at the pallet and get a hit no matter what you do, especially if they have bloodlust.
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@NursesBootie said:
4 wall jungle gyms are pretty unsafe if the killer knows what he's doing. I think the pallets on badham are pretty nice (except for the infinites in th school and the house of pain of course).
Right but even being unsafe there is still mind game potential because the players can't see each other.
Badham pallets aren't so bad EXCEPT there's no mind game and they become unsafe when the killer gets bloodlust. If all pallets were semi-safe with a mind game like 4 walls are, then we wouldn't need bloodlust.
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@Todgeweiht said:
I mean, the survivors can still mindgame them if they know what to do or if they have the correct set of perks
Not really. The ones in the hallway are just a free hit, especially if the killer gets bloodlust. If you get outplayed at these pallets as killer you are doing something VERY wrong.
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As survivor, Hawkins.
As killer, Ward.
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@Shocktober said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1329725#Comment_1329725
Xbox is a joke compared to PC. When I switched to Xbox because I was annoyed at hackers I made it to red ranks within 2 weeks of playing killer. But then I went back to PC because I could not handle the lousy frame rates.
Legion is not the worst killer, not even close. It is probably a tie between pig or the demo.
Keep moving them goalposts.
My friend with 17k kills/6k hours on Xbox recently went to PC. He got to red ranks in 2 weeks with baby perks. He only sticks to Xbox because he doesn't like having to re-grind for all his #########. WHAT IS YOUR POINT SIR?!?
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@BigBrainMegMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1329460#Comment_1329460
That's ridiculous. Removing scratches would be fine in a perfect game.
But this game has so many sound bugs, this hasn't happened to me before until today.
I see this happen once every other game, as killer or survivor.
Removing scratches would not be fine because the game could NEVER be perfect.
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@Shocktober said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1329679#Comment_1329679
You clearly don't play at red ranks if you are suggesting deerstalker as a counter to unbreakable. You can play absolutely perfect and the game is over in less than 4 minutes depending on what killer you chose.
"Burning unbreakable" means nothing if there are 3 of them in the lobby. Each unbreakable can reset the entire survivor team even if it takes the killer almost the entire game to achieve 3-4 man slugs.
What a joke. I already posted on these forums borderline perfect chases that end in 2-3+ gens completed when using the lesser powered killers at high ranks.
thesuicidefox playing Dead by Daylight: Special Edition at XboxClips.co4 DS's BTW, they barely got 2 gens done. PERFECT GAME AS LEGION. Don't people say he is the weakest killer all the time? The only one to DS me was Laurie and I let her because 2 were dead and the last was on death hook so I just let her do it because it didn't matter at that point.
thesuicidefox playing Dead by Daylight: Special Edition at XboxClips.coAnother game with 3 DS's. Damn near close to a perfect game. 3 gens left. I played super fair BTW. DID NOT GET HIT BY A SINGLE DS.
thesuicidefox playing Dead by Daylight: Special Edition at XboxClips.coTrapper. Haddonfield. 2 DS. Yes one was green rank but they were 100% a 4 man SWF. 3 gens left, almost another perfect game.
thesuicidefox playing Dead by Daylight: Special Edition at XboxClips.coForever Freddy on corn, 3 DS, FOUR ######### GENS LEFT. But Forever Freddy isn't very strong, nope not at all.
thesuicidefox playing Dead by Daylight: Special Edition at XboxClips.coOnly 1 DS, but again Legion, they did 2 gens, 1 was after 2 were already dead and I was just kinda being chill and not giving a #########. Almost perfect game AGAIN.
PS these are only the clips on my profile and only since the last reset. I have maybe 50 more I never posted and hundreds more from over the last 2 years.
But yea, I don't play at red ranks at all nor do I ever deal with multiple DS.
Check yo self.
thesuicidefox's videos at XboxClips.coIn case you want to see more of my clips.
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Forum spazzed. Double post. See next comment...
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I've been using Second Wind with OOO and OTR, and the only thing I will say about it is that 1) the requirement to get it to activate is a little dumb in that you need to do one FULL SOLO heal, and 2) if you get downed while Broken you lose it entirely instead of it just resetting for the next time you are hooked. Fix those 2 things and it would be a much better perk.
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@Shocktober said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1329665#Comment_1329665
JUST SLUG when in many rank 1 lobbies there are 3+ unbreakables.
It doesn't matter how you argue that DS is a busted perk or not. It literally used to be a free extra hook state. There are maybe 1/10 survivor games where I can say "wow, DS really saved me there because the killer was tunneling me".
There are way more games where it is like "lol, im sitting in a locker and the killer 'found' me, get wrecked for 'tunneling' me"
DS used to be a free, paid DLC, life. It has moved on little from there.
Then they burn Unbreakable early. Change your build up to include some other perks to counter it like Deerstalker or Thana. Or don't slug survivors that weren't hooked in the last 60 seconds.
There are ways to play around both of these perks dude. Stop bitching about the perks and change your tactics.
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@Shocktober said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1329635#Comment_1329635
I can't even tell if you are being sarcastic. The games at red ranks are over within a few minutes, win or lose. There is a reason that 3/4 or 4/4 survivors in my red rank lobbies typically will have DS.
In a worst case scenario, it is a free extra life. In the best case scenario, you can use it to bully the killer. Why not run it? Even if you play like absolute trash you can get value out of it.
"Free extra life"
Just. Slug. Them. Stop making excuses that you should be able to pick them up, go around and slug everyone. Killer can win games as quickly as survivors can do gens if you play like a scumbag. I get PLENTY of games of 4 stacks with 3-4 DS. Ask me how often I get hit by DS... VERY RARELY, almost every time is on purpose because the survivor is so eager to burn it with 4 gens left.
If you play like trash then it's not going to do much. I've seen many survivors use DS and get caught again 10 seconds later. Now there's nothing stopping the killer from just tunneling them again. If they use it early in the game, then they are probably going to die.
Where's that Doc meme when you need it?
@LordRegal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1329635#Comment_1329635
I made a thread about this a bit ago - if surv A saves Surv B while Surv C is hooked and D is Dead, I down A and hook them, B saves C, and then B saves A while I’m chasing them, all within 60 seconds...now I’m completely screwed. Can’t pick up B because DS hasn’t worn off, can’t go for A because probable BT, and C has officially vanished because I was trying not to tunnel them. Slug B and do a full chase with A, but then slug A top because they likely have DS since I actually am tunneling them? Now I’m slugging and drawing things out, giving them a chance to recover from what should have been a done game. There’s no “right” answer here.
Stop with this theory craft bull #########. There are a million scenarios you could give that favor either side in any which way you want. Fact is, if you find yourself in this position then you got outplayed. I would probably just hit the guy with BT so they have to waste time mending, then wait out the slug's DS. If there are only 3 gen, and 2 are incapacitated, then only 1 person can be doing gens. So unless you have 1 gen left, you can win in this situation.
Guys I play around DS all the ######### time at rank 1 as several different killers. IT IS NOT HARD TO BEAT. Seriously I'm literally getting headaches from the amount of bull ######### people spout about how DS is too strong. It's not if you change your tactics. Pretty simple. Stop being bots. I'm tired of being nice about it.
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@Shocktober said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1329619#Comment_1329619
Yeah, when I go across the map, hook someone else, then come back to someone working on a gen and get hit by DS I am playing poorly. It's not like it is an entire minute of invincibility (2x) in a game that can be over in 4-5 minutes.
You are playing poorly because you shouldn't just pick them up like a bot. Jesus ######### Christ, slug the guy if he was hooked less than 60 seconds ago. Is it that hard? They are doing the gen in your face to bait you. If you took the bait that's poor play. Stop lying to yourself or you will never get better at the game.
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@Shocktober said:
DS is an overpowered perk and everyone knows it. You get hit by it by performing too well, as well as tunneling. I prefer to camp and tunnel out anyone who uses it. Especially if they sit in a locker to force it.
"You get hit by it by performing too well"
Playing into a perk that your opponent obviously has instead of changing your tactics to counter it is NOT performing well. It's actually performing poorly. I swear the hoops you have to jump to come to the conclusion that you are playing well by GIVING your enemy what they want are massive.
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@VSchmitt said:
The real problem is, if you slug to get free from the DS you risk an unbreakable, even a tap-save. DS is too much of a security to bring to a game.
You still get pressure from slugging. I don't get why it's a problem they get up, it takes longer to revive from dying than it does to rescue from a hook and you don't lose time taking the hook either.
If they have no Unbreakable they will be downed for at LEAST 32 seconds, unless someone was right there to heal them up the instant they went down in which case it would be about 16 seconds. If they have Unbreakable it's 23 seconds. It's really not that big of a deal if they get up after you slug them, in fact you should expect it.
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Imagine not taking a few extra seconds to kick a pallet or a gen just to be sure. SMH
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I downed a Claud out in the open and because of this bug I COULD NOT FIND HER. It almost cost me the game.
I was so triggered I played like a massive ######### head the rest of the game. IDC this bug is complete bull #########, especially for Spirit.
And there are people that want to remove scratch marks entirely from phase. Right sure, because sounds aren't completely ######### every other patch. That's fair.
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Both games use Unreal Engine so it might be possible Gearbox is using some tech BHVR developed for Unreal that was used in DBD.
Also if we get anyone from Borderlands as a killer, we need Face McShooty.
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Dude needs to stop cutting his videos.
Says "she's done this multiple times but no stumble" then cuts out that ENTIRE part of the chase. Like #########.
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NACHO GANG 4 LIFE
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Survivor has a steeper learning curve but a low skill ceiling, meaning it's harder to learn how to play survivor well, but once you figure it out then you are basically as good as you can get with survivor.
Killer is a very low learning curve, but there almost is no skill ceiling. You will hit a skill walls along the way as you get survivors that are better and better. These spots are really rough and where a lot of killers struggle to get better.
So if you were to make a graph, survivor would look like a steep line that becomes completely horizontal (flat) after a certain point. Killer would look like a series of shallow line ending with a vertical line to the next "step".
Something like this...
SURVIVOR
KILLER
A lot of people will say "survivor is easy, killer is hard" but that's not exactly true. Survivor IS hard, up to a point then it's easy. Killer is easy at first, but as you get better survivors it becomes harder and harder to get better. The reason survivor is hard at first is because you get punished for every mistake, mistakes you didn't even know you made. Basically you mess up, you die, and there isn't a lot of room for learning the ropes there. The reason killer is easy at first is because survivors don't know at all what to do and just kind of run in straight lines, hide very poorly, or make bad decisions. It doesn't take a lot of skill to play against that, but then when you suddenly encounter a survivor that even knows the basics of looping they will give you a hard time and you will be punished for your mistakes. The difference is you have the entire game to learn from what you are doing. Survivors don't, they make 3 mistakes they are dead unless another better survivor is there to protect them (and even then there is only so much you can do).
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thesuicidefox's videos at XboxClips.co
Of my 10 most recent killer clips, 1 is Spirit and 1 is Freddy. 2 are Huntress, 4 are Legion, 1 is Ghostface (who I play the most but only have 1 clip BTW), 2 are Trapper. And these are only the clips I post to my profile, I have maybe 25 more in this time and most are Legion and Ghostface. One is ######### Demo with baby perks I don't even play him, I had 2 dailies though, but still got a 4k. Some are Spirit, but I main Spirit.
Most games I get nowadays are Huntress, Doc, Bubba, Ghostface, and yea Freddy is pretty common. Spirit though... I don't see them as much actually.
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@OniWantsYourMacaroni said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1326951#Comment_1326951
Do you happen to be sponsered by Forever Freddy? /s
But i agree his power is way too strong considering how easy it is to play him.
It's Forever Freddy By Calvin Klein (and it must be whispered).
“Between love and madness lies Obsession. Remember Me.”
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@Maperson said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1326927#Comment_1326927
Its easy for you because u are prob very good player, u can make all killers work, thats why u find it that easy, but there sre people who don't see the game like you or have that mindset, keep that in mind, he Is strong killer but he can get dealt with, lets be honest top tier killers will always do great no matter what killer they use, its prob like that to you.
I agree with you on Bubba, maybe he was better than Clown till the nerf, but after.. What buff/rework would u do to him?
But that's the point I'm trying to make.
A strong player, playing Forever Freddy, will almost always win convincingly. HE IS OVERPOWERED. Like Nurse and Spirit are strong killers, and if a good player plays them they will win a lot, but it's not so overwhelmingly easy as Forever Freddy. Survivors will still do gens against these killers, and the game can go either way a lot of the time. Forever Freddy will easily dominate games because you just do gens so incredibly slow, and he uses Pop to undo your progress.
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@Maperson said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1326869#Comment_1326869
Look, they are very easy to learn, its not some master degree, they are way more powerful than Freddy, both can end chases, only thing Freddy does better Is slowing the game down
"Way more powerful" is a severe overstatement. They are better but not by much, AND they require more skill to be that much better anyway.
Dude, like I said I've been playing Freddy at rank 1 for a long time now. I played old Freddy at rank 1 without any slowdown perks and I could 4k consistently. It took an IMMENSE amount of skill and experience to be able to do that. New Freddy I 4k with slow down perks/add-ons without even trying. I play super fair most of the time, no tunneling no camping no slugging, and I will EASILY 3k/4k with more than 3 gens left consistently. It's not even a challenge. If I do that with Ghostface or Legion, I feel accomplished. I do that with Freddy and it's to a point I can almost put the controller down and still win.
@Maperson said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1326869#Comment_1326869
What Is your opinion on Bubba?
He is the weakest killer in the game. He has no map pressure, his chase pressure is completely dependent on survivors giving him opportunities to use the chainsaw (which is easy to deny). The only thing he can do really well is camp a hook which is just a bad strategy no matter how you slice it. Clown is almost as bad, but at the very least his power can more consistently end chases faster than Bubba's.
Don't sit there and tell me "I can 4k all the time with Bubba" because that's not relevant to him being the weakest killer COMPARED to all the others. He has the weakest tools and the fewest of them. Before his rework, I would still say Freddy is the weakest killer because he was, despite how well I could do with him. I'm not saying Bubba can't get kills, just that he is the weakest killer. Please understand that.
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@Maperson said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1326842#Comment_1326842
Actually its not really hard to master them, i find more succes with Hillbilly than Freddy, ones u learn how to use it and predict how survivors move, its really no way out for them, atleast in my experience, Nurse end chase in seconds, u can't loop good Nurse not to mention god tier, but u still havent told me what do you think about Leatherface :/
Again the difference is Nurse/Billy/Bubba all take skill.
Freddy does not take much skill if you run Forever Freddy. I literally don't even have to try at rank 1 to get a 4k with 3/4 gens left.
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@JustCats said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1326842#Comment_1326842
For most killers it feels like survivor is easy mode. Any of them.
Yet when "most killers" are asked to play survivor they are awful.
Gotta love that tu quoque fallacy.
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@Maperson said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1326770#Comment_1326770
Listen mate, any top tier killer will stop, not every killer Is like Leatherface for example, you are fighting against killer who Is trying to destroy you, you are in his world, his rules, killer should be that strong. Top tier Nurse ragdolls anything, top tier Hillbilly Is also crazy, they are both stronger than Freddy. Just tell me something, what Is your opinion on Leatherface, im just curious
The difference is that you don't need to be a top tier Freddy to demolish most teams with Forever Freddy build. It is literally easy mode. If you get one that IS A GOOD KILLER you stand absolutely no chance. There is no counter play, he is arguably as strong as Nurse or Spirit, maybe more, when everything you do takes almost twice as long to do.
Also being a top tier Nurse or Billy actually takes skill. It doesn't take much to play Freddy with Thana/Sloppy/Rope/Pop and see an above average kill rate.
In other words, he is as effective as the best killers in the game with less than half the skill required. If you have that skill, you shouldn't ever lose honestly.
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@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1326745#Comment_1326745
Even so that still leaves him with half of his add-ons because more than useless.
OoO games are edgecases, and personally as a Killer I don't stumble upon them too much to run Blindness add-ons on killers that do have them
The only useless add-ons are Kids Drawing, Cat Block, Z Block, and to a lesser extent Pill Bottle. Two of them do the same thing. One is a BP booster. And the other is just a poorly designed add-on.
Doesn't matter if OOO is an edge case, the moment you go into a game without Sheep Block/Unicorn Block you will see what I'm talking about. Literally the ONLY thing that beats Freddy is OOO (of course this assumes the survivor is any good).
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@Maperson said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1326745#Comment_1326745
Trust me he Is great Freddy, well he shouldn't play dumb right, when u are awake he has no power, and trust me i beat a lot of freddys and im not god tier survivor and im most of the time solo, he Is not like u described, he Is very beatable, u can't play against him like u would play against Leatherface for example
"I beat a lot of Freddy's" is not the same as playing a top tier Freddy with Forever Freddy build. You. Will. Get. Demolished.
I stomp every group of survivors with Forever Freddy. It's not even a challenge. Even against good survivors in a 4 stack I barely have to put in any effort to get a 3k. At rank 1.
I have 3k hours in the game, survivor main, former old Freddy main. NEW FREDDY IS TOO STRONG. Remove some of the stuff from his base kit, shift it to his add-ons, and he would be balanced. Right now he is a mostly brain dead killer. Especially if you use the Forever Freddy build.
Again "when he is awake he has no power" means you have to waste time staying awake, which still benefits him. That means less time on gens and thus more time for him to kill you.
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@Dead_by_Gadfly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1326707#Comment_1326707
I did read your post, I dont agree with you that its overpowered. Ive been in solo where weve beaten it and ive vmbeen beaten while running it. "Forever Freddy" was a build that no longer exists. But keep chanting it if it makes you feel better.
Then the Freddy you faced simply wasn't very good. Anyone can beat an overpowered killer/build if they aren't very good. Play against a skilled Freddy using this build. You will change your tune. Outside of a coordinated 4 stack there is no beating a skilled Freddy using this build. You can't say no it ain't so all you want, I ######### use this ######### all the time and the game is a complete cakewalk.
@Maperson said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1326707#Comment_1326707
Listen, i know freddy main, only plays him, he Is really good, but when people who knows how to play against freddy come he is not that good, u should spread out with gens, most of freddys use discordance, u have to play stealthy, his snares are good but if u are awake they are useless, he Is unique killer that you need to adapt to, u can't just rush gens and get out, you have to play smart
And what if the Freddy plays smart? Spreading out is not an option when he has Ropes/Thana/Sloppy. It will take 100 seconds to do a gen, look at the math. Then he hits the gen with pop, scrambles the group, slugs a few of you. I seriously doubt your friend is that good with Freddy if he uses this build and loses to anything but the absolute best survivors on your platform in a 4 stack.
@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1326519#Comment_1326519
Assuming he is facing someone with Object.
How often is that? It isnt his best add-on, its one of the worse because of how little use it has in most games.
Often enough for it to be worth using. Trust me, you get an OOO user it completely changes the game. There is no mind gaming them. OOO is the only perk that truly levels the playing field against Freddy.
Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Sheep Block is a permanent add-on for my Freddy.
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@Dead_by_Gadfly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1326579#Comment_1326579
Yes, its effective, no its not forever. Forever freddy was done away with. We can both just keep repeating ourselves that doesnt make you any less wrong.
It wasn't done away with at all. Read my post, it is still entirely too strong. If it takes you until everyone is dead to finish a gen, it's basically forever.
I love how you say "you're wrong" when Forever Freddy is indeed very much a thing and the build is still ridiculously strong. Most groups I face where I use this build barely finish 2 gens before everyone is dead.
@Maperson said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1326521#Comment_1326521
He Is basic M1 killer which u can loop for days, he got cooldown on teleport, snares are really not that strong, his big counter Is that if u stay awake he got no power etc.. he Is very well balanced, u must play differently against him, u must be patient
What???
You can't loop a good Freddy. If they know how to use snares there is no looping him. Snares break pretty much every loop in the game.
The cooldown on his teleport isn't that long. It's less than the length of the average chase. Not to mention he can fake it and only lose about 10 seconds from the cooldown.
"Just stay awake". Sure, let's spend and ever increasingly amount of time Snap Clapping each other awake. Or let's fail skill checks regularly, both losing progress and giving Freddy a notification of our location. Or run clear across the map to use a clock, only to be put right back to sleep the instant he hits you. "Just stay awake" is such awful advice. No matter what you do to stay awake it's a time sink, and the Freddy will benefit from it.
He's not very well balanced at all. Freddy is ridiculously strong, he has way too many things in his base kit. This coming from someone that was an old Freddy main and still plays new Freddy regularly at rank 1.
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@Dead_by_Gadfly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1326550#Comment_1326550
Effective, yes, forever, no.
When he kicks a gen with Pop and thus adds another 33 seconds to the gen each time, not counting the extra regression from chasing you away from the gen and then repeating the process on the next survivor, it is indeed forever. By the time you actually finish a gen, 3 survivors are on death hook and that's the ONLY gen done.
I play this build exactly for the reason that's it's absurdly overpowered. I reserve my Freddy for toxic SWF or dailies. All I need to do is hit a few survivors and get a few hooks to pretty much negate any progress the survivors have made. I only need Thana, Sloppy, Pop, and Outdoor Rope for it to be mostly effectively against most groups. If you also use Dying Light, Jump Rope, and Swing Chains it becomes even stronger.
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@Dead_by_Gadfly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1324680#Comment_1324680
Forever Freddy no longer exists. They nerfed his rope add ons already and then nerfed ruin.
Thana + Sloppy + Pop + Rope will make the game VERY VERY slow. They nerfed the add-ons but it's still incredibly effective. Throw in Dying Light and Swing Chains and it's even stronger. All he has to do is hit everyone once and now it will take 24 seconds to heal another survivor, 49 seconds to Self Care, and 99 seconds to solo a gen. If he gets 6 stacks of DL and also has Swing Chains, now it will take 33 seconds to heal someone else, 65 seconds to Self Care, and 132 seconds to solo a gen. All Freddy needs to do is equip the perks/add-ons, hit everyone, and get a few hooks. Then when you factor in Pop, it will be damn near impossible to finish a gen unless you triple team every one and the guy in a chase lasts long enough, which is difficult considering how strong snares are at breaking loops.
Pretty much every game I've played as new Freddy with the Forever Freddy (by Calvin Klein) build has ended in a 4k with no more than 2 gens done. Maybe 2 groups made it to gates ever. Sometimes a guy gets hatch because I can't be bothered to drag out the game any more. Almost always end with 30k BP, most often end with a perfect 32k.
He is quite ridiculous if you use this build and are a skilled killer.
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@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1324762#Comment_1324762
To be honest, he suffers the most from "We-can't-think-of-anything-interesting-itus"
He has 4 Add-ons that are worthless in an actual game, that being the Blindness and Hemmoraging add-ons.
He has 3 Add-ons that are very situational, and won't work well especially in high ranks. I'm talking about the Missed Skill-check add-ons.
He has a useless BP Add-ons which is basically just a meme add-on and BHVR adds them in for god knows what reason.
He has 3 Add-ons that basically does the same thing, Dream Pallets, the only difference is that there is now aura reading. Ooooooooh scawwwyyy.
And finally he has one Add-on that prevents him from doing his most common tactic to pressure gens, faking teleports.
So that is a total of 12 Add-ons that no normal Freddy main would take into the game. Can you guess what the other add-ons he will take? Correct! It's the one that slows everyone down if they are asleep and the one that makes his teleportation regenerate faster.
As well as 3 add-ons that gives him a ton of pressure from the start or keep one survivor pressured forever OR make him appear closer than he normally would.
So he has 9 useful add-ons and 12 useless ones. No wonder Freddy doesn't have much variety when it comes to his builds because his add-ons literally restrict him to one playstyle if he wants to be played as optimally as possible.
"He has 4 Add-ons that are worthless in an actual game, that being the Blindness and Hemmoraging add-ons."
Uhh.. Blindness is actually one of his BEST add-ons. Play Freddy until you get someone with OOO, and you will see why it's necessary.
It's also useful as a slugging tool or to slow the game down by removing hook auras. But mainly, it's there to hard counter OOO which is devastating to Freddy, more than other killers because you see him 100% of the time while asleep. He can't mind game you at all.
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@Gomolazoli said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1325793#Comment_1325793
Every Claudette that seemingly abuses her invisibility. In other worlds, all Claudettes that aren’t look like they were puked out by the neon-rainbow dragon are doomed.
######### that. No exceptions. Kill them all.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1324682#Comment_1324682
There's a perk coming out that will give the survivor BT after being picked up from the dying state. I mean, I doubt many survivors will actually run it in the long term, but still, the possibility the killer will go up against it is there.
Then killer should stop 4 man slugging. Take some hooks and stop trying to kill everyone in 30 seconds. Just a thought.
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Wait until they heal them, then smack them back down. That's how you punish that.
Obviously you can't really do this if they are up against the exit gate, but then again at this point you basically lost anyway. Maybe don't let the game get to this point.
Coulrophobia and Sloppy also counter this tactic, as they both increase that 5% healing enough that you can usually hit the guy, then hit one of the two of them down. Sometimes both.
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Almost at tier 60. Only have 1 challenge left on level 3 (kill 4 survivors during EGC).
BTW for anyone wondering, each level has about 105 rift fragments that can be earned. I did calculations for how much XP you should expect to get playing the minimum number of games to get every challenge, and you should end up around 130 rift fragments, or 13 tiers on the Rift.
That means if you complete the entire tome you will be around tier 52, so you only need XP for 18 levels. That's 180 rift fragments, which would be roughly 4 games per 3 fragments, so about 240 games outside of the ones needed to complete the challenges.
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Freddy needs to be toned down some. He just has way too much in his base kit. Move some stuff to his add-ons, add more options to counter play his snares/dream pallets, and give Ropes/Chains some kind of penalty for using them so that there is a trade off if you want to run Forever Freddy.
Basically what I said here:
@thesuicidefox said:
As a former old Freddy main, I have to somewhat agree that new Freddy is a bit ridiculous. The problem really is that he has WAY too much in his base kit. Same thing with Doc, but I digress as this thread is about Freddy. I feel like most of the problems he has can be fixed by moving stuff from his base kit to his add-ons, reworking some useless add-ons to be more viable, and giving some more options to counter some of the things he can do. I have this massive list of changes I would make to the game, here's what I wrote about Freddy: (note unless otherwise stated, the add-ons will keep their current effects along with the new stuff)
- Cat Block, Z Block, Pill Bottle, and Paint Thinner reworked.
- Remove Oblivious from Dream World.
- Nightmare can be always seen by awake survivors within 32m.
- Remove stacking penalty on Snap Clap wake up action.
- Every 30 seconds after falling asleep, an additional random clock will become available to use.
- Cat Block adds stacking penalty to each sucessive Snap Clap and increases Clock interaction time.
- Paint Thinner reveals the survivor's aura for 5 seconds upon falling asleep.
- Z Block prevents additional Clocks from becoming available to survivors, adds Oblivious to Dream World, and causes lullaby range to oscillate from +4m to -4M.
- Pill Bottle causes Nightmare to appear intermittenly to awake survivors between 16 and 32m, to appear intermittenly to sleeping survivors beyond 32m, and causes survivors to fall asleep 50% faster if they woke up via failed skill check or Snap Clap.
- Garden Rake and Prototype Claws Dream Tokens reduced to 8.
- Prototype Claws aura reading removed. Prototype Claws inflict Exhaustion for 10 seconds on survivors that interact with Dream Pallets.
- Kid's Drawing adds 5 Dream Tokens.
- Outdoor Rope/Jump Rope/Swing Chains increase Dream Projection cool-down by 15%.
- Green Dress aura reading increased to 4 seconds.
- Blue Dress aura reading increased to 6 seconds.
- Windows Of Opportunity reveals Dream Pallets that were placed after the survivor fell asleep.
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As a former old Freddy main, I have to somewhat agree that new Freddy is a bit ridiculous. The problem really is that he has WAY too much in his base kit. Same thing with Doc, but I digress as this thread is about Freddy. I feel like most of the problems he has can be fixed by moving stuff from his base kit to his add-ons, reworking some useless add-ons to be more viable, and giving some more options to counter some of the things he can do. I have this massive list of changes I would make to the game, here's what I wrote about Freddy: (note unless otherwise stated as "reworked", all new effects are in addition to previous effects)
- Cat Block, Z Block, Pill Bottle, and Paint Thinner reworked.
- Remove Oblivious from Dream World.
- Nightmare can be always seen by awake survivors within 32m.
- Remove stacking penalty on Snap Clap wake up action.
- Every 30 seconds after falling asleep, an additional random clock will become available to use.
- Cat Block adds stacking penalty to each sucessive Snap Clap and increases Clock interaction time.
- Paint Thinner reveals the survivor's aura for 5 seconds upon falling asleep.
- Z Block prevents additional Clocks from becoming available to survivors, adds Oblivious to Dream World, and causes lullaby range to oscillate from +4m to -4M.
- Pill Bottle causes Nightmare to appear intermittenly to awake survivors between 16 and 32m, to appear intermittenly to sleeping survivors beyond 32m, and causes survivors to fall asleep 50% faster if they woke up via failed skill check or Snap Clap.
- Garden Rake and Prototype Claws Dream Tokens reduced to 8.
- Prototype Claws aura reading removed. Prototype Claws inflict Exhaustion for 10 seconds on survivors that interact with Dream Pallets.
- Kid's Drawing adds 5 Dream Tokens.
- Outdoor Rope/Jump Rope/Swing Chains increase Dream Projection cool-down by 15%.
- Green Dress aura reading increased to 4 seconds.
- Blue Dress aura reading increased to 6 seconds.
- Windows Of Opportunity reveals Dream Pallets that were placed after the survivor fell asleep.
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@Hag.is.Dtier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1324565#Comment_1324565
I'd go back to old Freddy's kit and improve it. But that will never happen, they'll just nerf him until he's weak and boring like Legion.
What they need to do with Freddy is move a lot of the stuff in his base kit to his add-ons. Here is a short list:
- Oblivious in Dream World
- Snap Clap action timer penalty for each use
- Appearing intermittently between X and Y distances
They also need to change the way clocks work. Something like, for every 30 seconds asleep a new random clock becomes available to use along with the previous one.
Then they can actually increase the strength of some things because now it's in add-on form.
As for the slow down effects there needs to be some downsides to equipping these add-ons. Maybe his gen teleport takes longer to recharge or he loses Dream Tokens (for snares and pallets). Then you can equip them to increase slowdown but lose some map pressure or chase potential in the process.
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@ScottJund said:
I don't think the base premise of "Saying boring is an excuse" even makes sense. An excuse for what? Losing? You can win and still be extremely bored. If you're bored, you're bored.
The thing is people do use "boring" as an excuse to DC or as an argument to get something they don't like changed. In most cases, they aren't even actually BORED they are FRUSTRATED, but use "boring" almost as a slur. Like boring is when nothing happens and you're not engaged. Frustrating is when you are engaged and the game is progressing, you just don't enjoy it.
Sorry I just don't buy a lot of "this is boring" crap because majority of it is actually just the person being frustrated. Then they DC and cite "boring" as a reason, ruining the game for everyone else. If you find yourself playing DBD and saying "this is boring" so much, then don't ######### play the game.
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Step 1: Play Jeff
That's all. Jeff is a scary lookin' MF'er.
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#CancelDoc
Devs said they wanted to make Doc more fun/less frustrating to go against. My oh my how hard did they fail at that one. He's worse than before.
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*turns on megaphone*
KILLER IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A POWER ROLE.
