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Partially I can agree, we already have enough for abandone system. And if all hooked, we don't wait anymore.
Something funny happened with me when I played with my duo. Wesker decided to fully commit to this match, proxy camped, did other stuff to constantly put pressure and whatever.
And then he slugged me for 4k, my duo was hiding and we decided to wait me to bleed out. And before timer left, killer… changed his mind? He left us to do left gens and game finished as tie.Abandon already force many situations that kills potential of comeback or exclude decition to spare. I had games on killer when decided to give person hatch, but he DCed. I had games when slugged guy DCed, later it turns out his team played well and the only reason they lost was that he left them for nothing, forced to deal with 3 vs 1 vs bot.
It's just an emotional moment people follow. And that’s fine. But encouraging this system is kinda unnecessary. I think if we are about to allow further dc, for survivors it should get as voting system where during 30 seconds majority should decide allowing it or not. If it's a tie or majority against, survivor should stay or forced to get a more strict ban timer for matchmaking . We’ll playing in team after all.
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This effect isn’t that popular and pretty weak and it maybe the only one reason people using this perk.
Better to delete whole effects then if u trying to remove the only thing it may be useful.
Exclusion for slugged survivors only maybe. Because they even don’t have bubble that helps
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@MadDragon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984235#Comment_3984235
That's not how it was when I played, and I just watched a video from last iteration where it needed 8 hits and the 9th downed (like I said above).
Okay, I even double check and yeah, it was 9th hit.
So this change is really confusing
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????
I remember I played myself legion, it was 8th down… always
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It was needed to hit 7 people before u can down for your 8th hit.
That’s not a typo
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It’ll sound counterproductive, but I started to play killer. When I returned to survivors after month it was like 10 times easier
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@HommeBizarre said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983942#Comment_3983942
Yeah, but he played the entire match, just decided to DC when we were escaping
You see what I mean?
I also can get mad about this, but honestly, can’t blame people
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that’s fine, but basically means this system will be half used
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5 second for some TTV being banned thanks to players in lobby
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Ragequitting can’t be fixed. U can’t force person playing match he doesn't like, isn’t?
They don't know u doing achievement
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983792#Comment_3983792
I mean, that might be true, but all the evidence points towards it not being the case. I'm willing to be wrong, but sadly it's hard to engage in good faith when it feels like you're not, and are just throwing out increasingly dubious and unevidencible claims
???
I'll wait until my question about incentives is answered directly. All of us here using dubious and unevidencible claims
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983783#Comment_3983783
The devs have said that a disproportionate number of people wanting to play role a leads to long queue times for role a and that's why they put queue incentives on role b - to get people yo switch.
But do this incentives work as intended? I remember many people complaint on this forum that it was no incentives when it was needed and we actually had underbalance on one side. Or it’s too low.
I remember for some reason we had incentives for killers when ghoul chapter was released, even when their queues were under extremely high load out.
Or twd chapter. Majority played survivors, yet they didn't have anything for killers when it was needed. Few people wanted to play during chase bug and last stand/streetwise/blood rush epidemia.
They don’t remove incentives when everything is fine either
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983658#Comment_3983658
You misunderstand - unofficial data can be useful to support ideas. I just didn't understand how the data was cropped
Oh, ok, my bad then.
Anyway, idk how this discussion switches to such side. It was about tunneling first, but other person started to use that argument “no one wants to play because of it”, meh.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983660#Comment_3983660
I thought it would be obvious from reading my posts but I guess I wasn't clear enough. Sure, I'll explain
I misread the post about Nightlight and thought you were saying that was a nearly exact 1:4 ratio of killers to survivors. I assumed this was the case because I know Nightlight takes information from all 5 players in their stats, and so I assumed those stats reflected every player in every game in their database. Obviously in every game, there are 4 survivors and 1 killer. If those stats were from every player in every game, it would be useless as a measure of anything because the data would be artificially cropped - the sample would intentionally be cut down in a way so that the number of players queueing from either side would be hidden and we'd only get the total number of end-game results.
Once you pointed out that the proportion of each role was not in that ratio, I changed my mind. By the time I wrote this post:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982691#Comment_3982691
… I was willing to consider Nightlight as a potentially useful source. Let me repeat that: I am willing to consider Nightlight a useful source in the discussion on player-count balance, and I was willing to consider the idea it might have proved my initial assertion wrong (I just think it doesn't prove it wrong)
Maybe they had information that other sources didn't? I did some investigating to be sure. That's when I discovered the information about how Nightlight excludes killer-uploaded games in its killer-pick-rate stats that you pulled from in your argument. Once I learned that, it started to fit with what I was saying. Whenever a killer uploads a game, the number of survivors counted increases, but the number of killers doesn't, so it actually changes the sampling to increase the proportion towards survivor. When a survivor uploads a game, it does count the killer.
I did some math, and depending on if the uploader is counted for survivor games, it looks like 30% (if they are) or 40% (if they're not) of games are uploaded by killer - much higher than the 20% you would expect if upload rates matched with the required player rates per role.
I find both nightlight and dead by queue really subjective sources. Because data limited from both sides and sources are partially covered. Dead by Queue is monitored by one person and I didn’t find any explanation on his social media why exactly his project should be considered reliable. Even how he did this.
If we want to get to know actual numbers of survs population, we have to ask devs about it. Because queue time have different reasons to be higher.
My personal theory is that cause of higher killrate we have more killers with higher MMR than survivors. And that MMR considers killer vs one person relationship only. So it's genuinely harder to find 4 people match all requirements. English isn’t my native language to present point properly, I can just ask silly gpt to help:
This just looks like DBD matches. This explanation just fit so perfectly I can’t stop thinking about it.
So survivors have wider pull for choices, while killers on top of their MMR faces with issues of high queue times and facing same teams even (one person, oecrophy, showed me this and she has really high killrate) . And being on top even not that hard for killer now.Why I’m thinking like that? When I played in sfw team where we had really wide spread of MMR once, we waited probably longest survivor queues in my life. And when I’m usually playing killer and face with unexpectedly long waiting, after matching I can be sure - my opponents won’t match my cap overall. Either too good for me, or too bad. When matches fast, It’s either night when few people play killer, or they perfectly match my skill level and we have balanced game that usually leads to tie/3k.
So, how to fix this…?
I don't know how exactly to revise the balance of the game and MMR because I’m just a player first of all, but for me decisions are to buff solo teams by info as much as possible + review the MMR criteria. Killers definitely need to have different rating , more strict and harder to achieve, while for survivors it needs to be made visible so they can see that adequate teamwork is rewarded by the game. Not hidden swf mark. Changing the meta in the form of perks and killers should happen after changing the core system.
Like since what actual my first post started, tunneling not the issue of people quitting, nor the reason of survivor shortage specifically. That's speculations and “I see this first, so it may be that main reason of every problem” mindset.
Killers tunnel because it's assymetrycal genre and we can’t change it. We can try to remove tunnelling at all, but other games faced with detrimental consequences of such move:
And that’s definitely not the reason of messed up queue times. I’m pretty sure even BHVR understand this.
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@BrightWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983727#Comment_3983727
BHVR has already said they decided to make Kaneki's Kagune Leap a hit-scan over skill-shot with player accessibility in mind, specifically console players. As they said in a Beta-build, that skill-shot Kaneki was incredibly clunky and unfun to play as and boring to play against.
I don’t ask using it for skill-shot…Sliding is the most intereseting part on him probably, I would like to make sliding around textures for antilllop as centered way to play him. Slide tech existed before and was the funniest way to play him on ptb.
And without first free hit scan it wouldn't be so busted
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@TheGoone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983719#Comment_3983719
We already got the list for 2026 reworks Myers, Trapper, Trickster and Skullmerchant, ghoul won't get a rework till 2027 he needs nerfs now
If u’ll constantly complain about something for that long period of time , people start to listen less
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Being killer main I see why u did it…
Being solo q survivor - u just mocking…
I can understand frustration over constant us vs them or upcoming tunnelling changes that will be more likely extremely bad but it doesn't justify proposal of doing something like this.
There is no point in trying to be like those who, instead of balance proposals, see only “I, I, I am the most important and my comfort only matters”
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@4thdslip said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983719#Comment_3983719
Nothing in his kit needs a rework. Having a high kill rate doesn't get you reworked, and he doesn't struggle to get kills due to him having a nearly useless power, like old Freddy had, or like what Sadako and Skull Merchant have now. He's not immensely slow like other low kill rate killers like Hag or Michael. Everything in his kit is clearly explained besides his ability to vault using you as a anchor, and all of these (INCLUDING the vault) have easy counterplay to them. There are THREE killers lined up for reworks right now who have no power to speak of, or struggle to get meaningful kills with said power.
I already commented under other post why I think he requires rework
If u simply remove auto aim and deep wound it’ll be direct nerf of his snow ball and slow down potential and he’ll be weak. I mean what makes him S tier killer rn by many considerations is low effort = a lot of time waste for opposite side. They aren't correlated with vaults. People in pubs just don't know how to dodge it, still, because people were obsessed with ranting more.
His anti loop vault is nothing special or OP. Remove this, he won’t be less annoying. He’ll be even more braindead. Free first hit, than play as m1 simply. Nothing good.
If they’ll slightly nerf him, people will be still not satisfied. If they’ll nerf him a lot by following every complain, we’ll have another dead killer.Whatever, it is just really subjective opinion from me. Personally I want his rework. Slide (hug) tech, and possible potential of vertical gameplay was the only funny thing for me I liked. They removed first, they never added second. I see him as overall ok killer but with no skill expression and lame gameplay for me
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That’s like every post about him every day on this forum. With absolutely same content and comments….
Devs told their plans on him was postponed on 2026. We can’t change this, we barely managed force them to postpone new license for bug fix.
He is not on highest pick rate anymore. We need to wait for his rework -
@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982028#Comment_3982028
Are there times your not Asian?
I didn't say here that I live in Russia or something. I’m watching Russian streamers and speak on this language, so I am part of Russian community as well. People from CIS countries, even Ukraine, considers mainly by other people as part of Russian community. We don't have big prejudice here, few members of Russian comp teams are Ukranian even. I communicate freely with people from many CIS countries in DBD fandom, and mainly we count ourselves as Russian part of community.
If I’ll tell I’m from Uzbekistan and start suddenly yapping about Russian streamers people would be confused. Yet it doesn't cancel that fact that when I receive racist offences, it doesn't cover actual true lol. At least because this is racist offence, at max because I was in Russia once and has little from Slavic roots
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982702#Comment_3982702
So I'm wondering what you think could possibly be causing this to happen if it's not far too many people wanting to play killer (and far too few wanting to play survivor)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/439C3A3P2IHY/1000001009.jpg
I’m just curious why u were extremely sceptical about nightllight and their “bias”, but your source is completely fine and sincerely believe it always shows a true picture of the situation
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982702#Comment_3982702
So I'm wondering what you think could possibly be causing this to happen if it's not far too many people wanting to play killer (and far too few wanting to play survivor)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/439C3A3P2IHY/1000001009.jpg
Many post above here from me was about that since killers still hosts lobbies in terms of MMR system, they always tends to have searches higher time.
Especially when as soon u open website u use as reliable sourse it looks like this most of the time
And when u go to their social media, their last post doesn’t even hint on this problem
And survivors also can get higher queue time. And this website as unreliable as nightlight, because they also unofficial and has limited data :/
U can’t just slap queue time of completely other role in the game, ignore matchmaking system and server population to out loud point on survivors shortage. So again, provide either direct numbers or just accept that that’s u can't simply prove it
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I know he isn’t that important than fog vials or current bugs, but I feel no one talking about this and that just makes me feel he is forgotten as soon as bloggers hyped about his change :( At least I wish to discuss with other phead mains, maybe I’m just overcomplicate everything
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982928#Comment_3982928
He's a paid dlc collaboration and one of the most popular killers in the same. He's not going to get the skull merchant treatment.
after twd I seriously doubt they think twice before dealing with licenses
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@PigWithTvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982995#Comment_3982995
u are joking that still EXISTS?
My friend played and I noticed watching his discord. Probably I also seen it on either otz stream or someone else.
It was also reported he has locker bug (u can find it on forum probably ) and he has extremely weird walking bug (highlights from NightFyryo3o streams, maybe u still can find it)
Now every killer dealing with few bugs after TWD. I haven’t heard only about Wraith and Artist yet
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@PigWithTvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982956#Comment_3982956
literally what otz suggested 5 seconds of it happening the first time, and someone was like
No.
I watched this stream and honestly closed after I saw how his mods were being continuously kicked out from the lobby
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As I noticed, sometimes u can accidentally get a bug where u able to put two traps on the same place
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@MarbleThrone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982956#Comment_3982956
Yeah, the reason why it happened in the first place was because cheaters were able to force themselves into the lobby, grab the server IP, leave, and attack it. But with every slot already filled, they can't do that. That's what Otz tried to do during the stream, by having trusted mods from his community step in to fill the spectator slots. However, they were all kicked out …
To be honest, I genuinely believed that they simply didn’t have enough recourses for this, but if it turns out it’s that easy for them to turn off way for DDoS, then they’ll never be able to excuse themselves. That’s worse than SM release. That’s simply another insta blind gate then
Even if it’ll be some of my favourite franchises next time or chapter will consist of new meta perks I won’t buy it. Nuh. Doubt it will bring any impact but I’m not gonna give money for people who use them in such disorganised way -
I’m impressed how community was begging them for months to fix it, while they were constantly deleting so many posts about cheaters on reddit, ignored big chunk of russian speaking community which lobbies were full of this bs and we constantly were trying to catch attention, ignored their own english speaking streamers with status of fog whisperers, ignored so many videos and reports from casual players…
When it can be fixed by … simplified security measure like just forbidding randoms to join lobby.
If it turns out other types of cheaters can be restricted by simple reconsider of the safety of their back-end I’m genuinely gonna support any case like TWD stream, korean players incident again and againg every months until they’ll learn how they treat their players
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@TheGoone said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PQV6M9RY9DY0/20250814-061546.jpg
After the Disaster of the TWD stream Devs are now making it so custom game lobbies either public or private will now send a request to join to the host instead of automatically joining.
I hate how it takes a disaster to get fast changes.
Wait.
So DDos can be partially fixed by just… not allowing randoms filling spectators slot???? -
Solo q is completely fine until u get ultra sweaty killer or your teammates tends to play not that way as u expected.
I like it. Personally. Cause I tend to bring team perks for solo. Doing really random stuff that can be helpful. Show teammate that it may be scourge hook and when he realised it u feel so satisfied. Trigger dms on cold gen and see how some teammate happily nods or when u bring reassurance and play for the save to do risky endgame is so nice. As soon as u play solo by wise altruism and others doing it as well this is my fav matches ever.
It also can bring surprises. I played against p100 huntress recently, she was incredible sniper. But before realising it, I was grumbled at my teammates, thinking that they were having trouble playing against a huntress on RPD. And only towards the middle of the game, being in chase myself, I realized that it wasn't my teammates who were bad, but the player on her was so damn impressive. I doubt that playing SFW would have brought the same emotions, because from the very beginning I understood from my friend's voice that we were cooked.
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@AGM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982904#Comment_3982904
His core concept is fine. Hers wasn't.
Skull got nerfed then reworked then changed then rework-nerfed to the point that nobody knows what she even does anymore. That's what it means to be Skull Merchanted.
He just needs some slight changes so that he's not obnoxious to play against.
A complete rework is how you end up with Skull Merchant.
I doubt auto aim is fine idea in principle. Looking at this forum and every other social media, majority expect him to be nerfed to the ground. They never will be satisfied.
When SM was greatly nerfed by kick gen system people dced anyway. Explaining that she is still annoying to go against. They asked for more and more until only few enthusiasts were playing her. Probably, majority just don’t want to see ghoul at all.
I just wish to have another S tier killer but with skill expression. I don't want another brain-dead B tier. For me going against ghoul already is fine, but if people complain that much, I barely can judge here. And he is lack of skill ceiling, so…. rework indeed needed, at least for me
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South Africa and people from CIS gets ignored and forced to play with 200+ ping despite having big funbase
More servers to Europe…
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So killer can hook survivor in mid (that usually happens more often then corner down) and make rescue in endgame 10 times harder? I’m not sure it's good decision, just because u want second hatch.
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He doesn't need nerf. He needs entire rework
Nerf = another SM treatment
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Either you are arguing that the matchmaking is casting a very wide net, in which case matchmaking is currently proceeding faster than intended, which would make the queue discrepancy smaller than it should be, indicating a greater shortage of survivors…
Or
You are arguing that the matchmaking process is slow and cumbersome because it constantly needs to reboot, in which case it is very slow at processing the available survivors, which should be making survivor queues slower too, since they're being processed at a slower rate.
I’m telling MMR system is not perfect and that why it's another reason (not the only one) of slower queue times. And that's why killers queue to “prove” survivors shortage is bad idea. More likely we have issue of having enough ratio for same MMR pull for killer/survivors. And not because of skill issue, but because killer still hosts MMR rating dependency, ignoring teamwork and other factors.
But definitely we have enough players. If u want to provide proof that survivors only (and not killers) are massively quitting this game, just find the way to prove it directly. Because personally for me my friends from both roles are quitting, and by stats we don’t have actual picture.
When my queue on killers took seconds after TWD release while I was waiting 10 mins for survivors, I don’t rely on queue bonus to showing the problem.
So better just provide direct stats. While we don’t have them, yeah… That's why it's meaningless to discuss.
If switching from off topic. I’m actually against changes of mangled status OP proposed, but I also can’t agree that tunnelling killing this game or we have shortage of the survivors. For tunneling u have skill and pretty enough anti tunnel perks, accept the fact that in every asymmetrical game people will strive to 3 vs 1 and that’s all. Killer somehow didn't quit the game after many changes, maybe because it wasn’t that bad? As well as for survivors. But going further… basically means motivation to play S/A tier killer only and won’t fix issues of low solo survivors escape rate. If someone starts to being over dramatic about gen rushers or tunnelers I genuinely advise them to switch to opposite side and play for few months without any hint of gen or hook efficiency. And actually commit to sweaty gameplay
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982720#Comment_3982720
I'm not ignoring what you're saying.
I'm refuting it.
You're ignoring what I am saying.
To quote:
Matchmaking compiles a match and invites a survivor in accordance to those criteria. There's no separate 'survivor matchmaking' that just flings survivors into random lobbies that a 'killer matchmaker' is trying to curate.
They're under one system. Every lobby has one matchmaking system.
No one denies here that we have same matchmaking system for every lobby. But the way how it affects role is different. For killer to find lobby it needs to match 4 people MMR. Like, one system check for people before letting u be matchmade.
For survivor it needs to check only Killer MMR - cause as soon it matches, it means your teammates probably checked it as well. Matchmaking system doesn’t check teammates for survivor side How it supposed toThe system one, but it treats lobbies personally. Before going as survivor u can invite friends. U already create party. And after “start”, only one party need to match another lobby of the killer. So it can be fast, if it full of 4 people.
If u alone u still created a party, that looks for killer to match. As soon as it matches, u joined. U filtered one person only , because system relies on that from other side, other 3 was already filtered by killer.
And that’s why u can have games where no survivors nor killer matches your expectation of MMR. One flaw from your client side, and whole lobby u joined doesn’t fit your MMR braces because it checked only killers one. Or it can be fine and only you doesn’t match Killer braces. Or it can be only one-two teammate.. Or killer don’t have anyone to match his MMR and whole lobby is random set up.
If it was “same”, then when system had a flaw, it affected all 4 survivors in the same way by MRR braces. -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982574#Comment_3982574
So, I checked. It doesn't show that it starts from scratch, but if one survivor doesn't really suits requirement, it starts again. And when killer can’t find survivor of same MMR, it checks another pull (like if u are in ”gold” killer, system looks for “silver” pull and check whole pull to match the closest one) .
Okay, but…
Either you are arguing that the matchmaking is casting a very wide net, in which case matchmaking is currently proceeding faster than intended, which would make the queue discrepancy smaller than it should be, indicating a greater shortage of survivors…
Or
You are arguing that the matchmaking process is slow and cumbersome because it constantly needs to reboot, in which case it is very slow at processing the available survivors, which should be making survivor queues slower too, since they're being processed at a slower rate.
There's an argument to be made that the former is indeed in play, but that's running counter to your argument that MMR is the reason killer queues are slow, since the widened matchmaking would specifically make it easier and quicker to compile matches for killers, not slower.
Survivor doesn't need to check MMR of their teammate. It's more simple for the system to matchmake killer with each survivor, than doing survivors vs killer vs every teammate.
But these are not different systems. This is one system. Matchmaking compiles a match and invites a survivor in accordance to those criteria. There's no separate 'survivor matchmaking' that just flings survivors into random lobbies that a 'killer matchmaker' is trying to curate.
They're under one system. Every lobby has one matchmaking system. So if the problem was there, both sides would be affected.
It won't affect both sides in terms of queue times. Because again. Survivor check only MMR of the killer before join. Killer checks whole lobby. 4 vs 1. I’m honestly tired repeat same thing that was being ignored
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982448#Comment_3982448
I had a look at the Nightlight documentation and it seems the people who upload screenshots are Not included in the stats. A disproportionate number of survivor stats would therefore mean a disproportionate of killers uploading stats from their games. Looks like Nightlight supports the idea that there are more dedicated killer players than survivors right now
So, actually we don’t have even indirect stats that can define that some side suffers from “shortage”?
Personally I always believed that we have enough people for both roles. For some really specific period of time just people prefer to stick to specific role. Like evening for survivors cause of sfws and early day for killers when it’s not sweatyThe only time when we actually don’t have enough people it’s when we have big events or something weird happens in fandom, like killer side masquarede with poor balance and farming teammates or old MFT/post TWD update
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982525#Comment_3982525
If u read again, u clearly can see I didn’t ask my friend compare queue times in DBD with Iden, I asked about survivors and hunters difference in game he is playing.
And the answer he gave you is that they also have longer killer queues.
He explained why it’s longer, and that this is common for every assymetrical game.
Actually, his explanation makes no sense. If there's more survivors playing, then that would make matchmaking easier, and thus faster. Queues don't get slower if you have more people to match with.
Do u know what matchmaking means? It’s a way how the game define with who exactly u will be queued up. BHVR shouldn’t specify it. It means that being able to match 4 people at the same time is harder than being matchmaked with one person only. And in BHVR since the start killer was hosting lobby (they changed server dependency from it, but didn’t change other factors), it still works as it is. Because it increase performance, otherwise both survivors and killers waited extremely a lot (as well in case of survivors shortage, that’s why I don’t find your argument viable) .And BHVR told before, that the way how u change your MMR on survivor is depends on against what killer with what kind of MMR u escaped/died. If u died against stronger player, u’ll lose less MMR than against weaker one. Because they decided group escapes shouldn’t be considered over personal ones. So your MMR is basically:
killer vs lobby
survivor vs killer
So matchmaking system isn’t considered for survivors to analyse their teammates. And it works both for matchmaking itself and evaluating of your MMR. Part of this was covered in video I linked and u probably ignored.
Yes, this is about how Match-making RATING works, but not about how the matchmaking system itself works.
It is your argument that the matchmaking system itself is doing the following:
The algorithm not only need to analyse the MMR of each player, it needs to check that its average number is not higher than the killer's MMR as well. And then it also needs to check the location of the servers. And as soon as the server finds that one player out of 4 does not meet the requirements, it starts the selection from scratch.
Where is your proof for this?
Because this is the crux of your argument, but this is what's unsubstantiated. Additionally…
What does the survs queue need? View the killer's MMR and common server. That's it. Survivors do not host MMR for lobbies, so they find people instantly.
This doesn't fix it. Survivors aren't on a separate matchmaking system, they're organised by the same one. So if the matchmaking system itself is the cause of the delays, survivors would be feeling it too.
Where is your proof for this?Matchmaking rating directly influence on matchmaking itself.
About friend —, for hunter it takes 1-2 minutes. For survivors around 5 minutes (he missed my question at at all lol), and he explained it by survivor abundance. But this is considering ranking system.
In quick matches, situations suddenly different and both roles takes less than minute two. So it just shows MMR influence in queue time along with proportion of players on roles. And this game doesn't dying because one role is more preferable. As well as dbd.
So, I checked. It doesn't show that it starts from scratch, but if one survivor doesn't really suits requirement, it starts again. And when killer can’t find survivor of same MMR, it checks another pull (like if u are in ”gold” killer, system looks for “silver” pull and check whole pull to match the closest one) .
Survivor doesn't need to check MMR of their teammate. It's more simple for the system to matchmake killer with each survivor, than doing survivors vs killer vs every teammate.
Technically killers still host of lobbies, at least in MMR term. And that’s why when system works overall bad and unreliable, it firstly affects killer queue time. That’s why considering killer queue time to prove survivor shortage isn’t that good because we have other factor that affects them as well.
It was in video I linked. This person gathered info from devs, and some people who were using not good methods for looking on game back end. He also asked bhvr to get his personal stats and u can do it as well to gather your own mmr. He has two videos about MMR. Anyway, this theme start going to be so off topic. We just went from tunneling discussion to straight mmr.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982392#Comment_3982392
Many people try to argument with “tryhards will be in casual anyway” but then I just want to ask why in other games rank modes exist and that's fine.Basic answer is the same as whenever people say 'if it works in X game, why doesn't it work in DbD?" DbD, as a grindy asym is radically different than other games.
Three reasons, some of which @TicTac have covered.
1: Conceptual - In most games your ideal world is having two teams of the same ranking hitting each other. Except comparisons in DbD are always going to be off because the best Blight in the world can never hit the 2nd best Blight in the world, they can only hit survivors, just as survivor teams can't hit each other, they only hit killers.
This means having a direct comparison is impossible because it will really come down to who hits who. Not to mention a system like this is open to trying to game it much more than you could in other games.
On top of that, BHVR would have to decide on more firm win conditions.
2: Asym problems - There's a bunch here, just to hit some of the highlights. In non-asym games the sides are doing the same thing, so players are improving at the same rate. In DbD survivors can form teams, start communicating, start planning strategies together, or not, this creates possibilities and challenges on one side that don't exist on the other.
Things like bans also don't work the same. When something gets banned in a normal game, its banned for both sides. Killers and survivors have totally different stuff so it would be very hard to balance how many bans each side gets. Not to mention, that a huge part of the game design is not knowing what perks the other side has: one of the reasons not to tunnel is the possibility of anti-tunnel perks, if the killer could wipe those out he would have a lot of power.
And if survivors could ban killers, well then some killers would just never get played.
Then you have the issue of matching people up. The best survivor teams are the 4 person SWF clock callouts, except there aren't very many of them and they don't play as much (as gets brought up a lot, its just harder to organize 4 players then 1). So high ranked killers might have extremely long queue times, meaning they just jump over to the other queue.
3: The game isn't designed to be balanced.
Items / Addons - DbD has the grind as a balance mechanism where some things are meant to be rare (this is largely dead for anything but new players, but BHVR still relies on it for design).
The thing that tends to upset people is when one side sweats and the other doesn't. Except if BHVR changed their mind and thought this was a bad design, they could just change it and get rid of the concept of rarities and balance everything.
Maps - Who the map favors can radically depend on the killer, this makes things like map selection easier for one side than the other (unless you are imagining a ranked system where the survivors know the killer, which undermines a lot more aspects of the game).
Killer tiers - You mention this going off things like the tiers lists comp already uses. Except this is an end run around the idea of actually balancing the killers, which is something BHVR doesn't want to do (a lot of requests for ranked are to put in rules for things I think players wishes BHVR would do, but they won't, so they try bringing up ranked as an end run around BHVR's objection).
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Rank mode would probably take a fair amount of time for BHVR to set up, I doubt it would actually achieve anything, and there are lots of more important things to focus on. For those who really want the comp experience, leagues already exist.
I don’t finding banning specific perks killing the part of the game mechanic. At first, for “ranked mode” that supposed to having less RGN dependency. Because nothing good in team lose because they chooses heal build against plague. That’s just something that can be common in normal games, but not when we considering ranking up…And I find it fair to ban decisive strike against trapper or predator on nurse, if we talking about rank games. Because u can’t balance all perk around 40 killers with different abilities, and some killers can basically abuse them in unhealthy way, or some survivor perks can be unfairly used against specific killers. Like, we all knows recent springtrap perk for exit gates was released extremely weak because singularity can make game around it really bad and hold survivors hostages until killing them (yet we somehow ignore conviction or let fog vials having 0 charges only for making them extremely bad after) Or like everything for antislug against plague/twins/oni, because they supposed to play through snowball. ranking… I doubt this should happen. U still can use around 100 perks for creative loadouts.
But I understand u can’t balance it perfectly for both rank and casual with their pace of releasing new chapters. I already responded to other person about queue times. I don’t forget about them as well and pretty understand issue of ranking mode. So people don’t have other options but accepting try hards in their lobby. Yet they don’t want to -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982465#Comment_3982465
Ah, so the data is tallying survivors per player but killers per game. So it's not even measuring the survivor:killer ratio at all.
But furthermore, it confuses how it is that they tally this. Where are they getting the extra survivors from? Because judging by the game count, they're not in the queue.
Them existing doesn't fix the problem if they're not queuing.
while in similar game situation is even “worse”, but queue time better in DBD.
Interesting bit here is that you're making the opposite point to what you're trying to say. If the queue times are better in DBD than they are in other games where tunnelling is worse, that's supporting my argument that tunnelling is helping to kill DBD. If games with more tunnelling have worse queue times, then it suggests that DBD's queue times would be worse with more tunnelling, too.
You specifically pointed out Identity V as having a bad tunnel problem, and then you ask a friend which is longer in that game: Survivor queue or killer queue. That friend says the killer queue is longer.
Which is the same problem as DBD.
No one responds on my MMR influence on queue here
What is your proof that MMR is the factor here? Because AFAIK, BHVR hasn't specified that this is how their matchmaking works, and additionally, this would be a more universal problem, even when survivor population spikes. You're basically suggesting that the MMR system operates at a snail's pace in all circumstances, which would actually require it to slow survivor queues, too.
Furthermore, BHVR themselves, who probably have more direct access to these kinds of figures, have put in the BP incentives to swing the queue timers, which they wouldn't see a need to if player shortages weren't the problem.
Not to mention the quitting epidemic, which is like a big neon sign that says 'WE DON'T WANNA PLAY ANYMORE'.
Interesting bit here is that you're making the opposite point to what you're trying to say. If the queue times are better in DBD
*than in DBD. Typo mistake that can’t be edited since edit on forum is bugged. If u read again, u clearly can see I didn’t ask my friend compare queue times in DBD with Iden, I asked about survivors and hunters difference in game he is playing. He explained why it’s longer, and that this is common for every assymetrical game.
Furthermore, BHVR themselves, who probably have more direct access to these kinds of figures, have put in the BP incentives to swing the queue timers, which they wouldn't see a need to if player shortages weren't the problem.
I commented about queue bonus above to other person. U both repeat same things. Why repeat same arguments that was answered before? Can u check whole thread?
What is your proof that MMR is the factor here? Because AFAIK, BHVR hasn't specified that this is how their matchmaking works
Do u know what matchmaking means? It’s a way how the game define with who exactly u will be queued up. BHVR shouldn’t specify it. It means that being able to match 4 people at the same time is harder than being matchmaked with one person only. And in BHVR since the start killer was hosting lobby (they changed server dependency from it, but didn’t change other factors), it still works as it is. Because it increase performance, otherwise both survivors and killers waited extremely a lot (as well in case of survivors shortage, that’s why I don’t find your argument viable) .And BHVR told before, that the way how u change your MMR on survivor is depends on against what killer with what kind of MMR u escaped/died. If u died against stronger player, u’ll lose less MMR than against weaker one. Because they decided group escapes shouldn’t be considered over personal ones. So your MMR is basically:
killer vs lobby
survivor vs killer
So matchmaking system isn’t considered for survivors to analyse their teammates. And it works both for matchmaking itself and evaluating of your MMR. Part of this was covered in video I linked and u probably ignored.
tunnel problem
It’s basically starts irritates when person u talk with don’t read your text even. Situation of tunneling even “worse” (big quotes marks were always here for this reason ) cause in Identity V they don’t have any “anti tunnel”. But their attitude towards tunneling is tolerable. Because game were balanced around it, cause devs understand people won’t stop tunnel in assymetrical games and better strategy is balance game around 3vs1. Whole community even doesn’t consider tunneling as issue even. Because many hunters(killers) have power dependancy on tunneling, slugging, camping. As well as killers in DBD, like trapper and leatherface being good for camping, twins and oni for slugging, onryo and pyramid head for tunnelling.
So it shows tunneling can be balaced in a way it doesn’t bother community and DBD have other core issues in their mechanics. But “out of sight out of min mindset focus on tunneling or genrush as balancing system problems.
U said yourself tunnelling “killing this game”, yet somehow, we have 2times less agressive tunneling in DBD itself after massive changes after 9 years and even more online. If u having decisive strike, otr, kindred, burden, base kit 10 sec endurance, no hook grabs, heal meta and still somehow complaining on tunneling, probably u just except game doing everything instead of you.
Whole my post was about the game in absolute same genre have 0 issues with tunneling nor queue times. And that dbd itself rn have zero issues with it. U just messed up my text, and reverted how u wish to see it. And that’s just upsetting me, seeing such inconstructive and messed up way of debating. Quit
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982448#Comment_3982448
?????? The nightlight stats are only from complete uploaded games, of course the ratio is going to be 4:1 in those stats.
Anecdotally, the high queue time side on that website corresponds with the queue bonus being on the short-queue side, which BHVR have explicitly said goes to the role with not-enough people queueing.
Nightlight is a decent source for stats but what you're using it for is just blatantly a misuse of stats
Uk that from game stats it will also show 1:4 ratio of played games, because all games = queued match? And unplayed match simply can’t be recorded?
I’m not telling nightlight shows actual picture. It also ignores matches when killer or survivor who uploaded game dced. I’m hinting that proportion of survivors players not only equal, but even over that planned ratio. 1:5~1:6. It’s even more, so how it potentially happens if we have shortage of players? If it was actual shortage, then it was 1:4 ration even on nightlight then.
BHVR does not provide server stats while running. The only way to look at this was server made by cheater and it was closed long time ago.
The only way to "estimate" this is to provide the share of the game already uploaded and see if it is equal or not. This is not abuse, this is an attempt to respond to a person who does not provide anything at all except indirect time on queues for a completely different role. You yourself provided indirect statistics in the form of a queue for a different role, completely ignoring that MMR also affects the run time of the queue selection, how else I should respond except providing same indirect stats?Queue bonus, as discussed long ago on this forum, does not correspond to reality in principle. Many players have noticed that killers have not been given adequate bonuses for encouragement lately, even when survivors encounter difficulties on servers (as was the case a few days after the streetwise bug situation, and I personally timed queues for survivors lasting 5-10 minutes).
Again. Our entire dialogue with other person generally began with a discussion of tunneling. Like “it’s killing the game”. I asked how it’s killing, while in similar game situation is even “worse”, but queue time better in DBD. He ignored and pointed on survovor shortage. I asked direct proofs, because in every assymetrical game that was barely balanced queue time was always longer than for 4 people because of matchmaking system. This person again, ignored and insisted “but killer time is longer”. No one responds on my MMR influence on queue here, themselves provides indirect stats that has other influences (like same MMR), and now blame me in “misuse” statistic completely missing my point.
Are we really want to discuss such theme in a such way? Better either stop it, or provide direct stats to prove point because u can forever manipulate on something that hidden from publicity. No one here is dev that can say directly explain ration of players depends on their role.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982448#Comment_3982448
When players tries to upload numbers themselves, we see that ration is > 1:4
Hold on a sec, is this nightlight?
Of course the ratio is going to be 1:4 on Nightlight, since that only tallies completed matches. EVERY match has a 1:4 ratio, so any dataset compiled out of completed matches will have an exact 1:4 ratio.
… the games were played. And as u can see, players upload their competed games on survivors more frequently. Like x 5.7 times even. It's not simple 1:4 ratio. It's 1:5 ratio. If follows your logic, how this possible? How additional +1 to ratio were able to complete the match?
So people upload completed matches on survivor based on demand. It's not even some required uploads, people upload to NL for tracking their games. And if more games on survivors are tracked, and it's more popular, how then we have shortage of players?
I’m still asking for direct numbers and not killer queue time. Where? I tried to find myself, met with some vague considerations of 20/80 of killed/survivor proportion that was provided by dev but didn't find any direct citations. That’s why I don’t claim survivors are in in abundance. I consider them enough. And to really prove their lack, it is necessary to show proofs
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982412#Comment_3982412
But Ranked and Comp is a big difference.
Comp-rules dont work if you dont have 2 teams which play 2 rounds and compare the killer results. Some matchups are expected to 4k2, for other 6 hooks is a good result. And you also cant just take the expected result from something like DBD-League as baseline bc even they have every season some killer where the balancing is wrong, for example Unknown last season.
I’m not saying it should directly match league rules. Some less strict equivalent. But I think it is necessary to take a system that determines the loadout depending on the tier of the killer if they want to add rank mode. Or voting system for banning.To be fair, we have stealth killers. Most of them are incredibly weak due to map dependency. Why not balance this in rank mode?
But as I said before, no one will do this. Majority will stay as casual anyway, devs probably don’t have sources to making it viable. And as u said queue time will affect a lot. Because actual tryhards won’t be really interested and stick to custom games, while people like Otz or Hens is a very small proportion of the player base. If people are so against rank mode, they should realize that tryhard players themselves are not going anywhere. Even if you completely ban the tunnel, they will make the game sweaty in the new meta because they simply play better than most.
That's why we have a choice without a choice. The system really motivates players to stay in rank mode (impossible, because it's assymetrical dbd from bhvr), or stop complaining about part of the community (impossible, because it's assymetrical dbd from bhvr)
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982398#Comment_3982398
The broken MMR would alleviate the problem, not exacerbate it. Killer queues should be faster if the MMR is too loose. Killers are still getting lengthy queues because there's not enough survivor players around.
We already have a broken mmr. Otz being 14k hours player was placed against the beginning survivor. Because, again, the system is made as poorly and unfairly as possible.
To expect that broken things do not make other things (such as queues) broken is the most naive thing I ever heard in my life. Especially related to game design. If something in game is broken, in 99% chance it’ll trigger chain of errors. The system still may run, but it would cause unexpected behaviour in completely different place.
A living person is not responsible for the queuing of players, it is an algorithm. So u shouldn't treat queue time as “problem always cause direct flaw”.
If the algorithm suffers from poorly written conditions and a flaw in the system, it is forced to spend more resources and time on processing information, and will still give it out in a distorted format if it's possible. So it's like a huge bug(gap), but in balancing system.
The algorithm not only need to analyse the MMR of each player, it needs to check that its average number is not higher than the killer's MMR as well. And then it also needs to check the location of the servers. And as soon as the server finds that one player out of 4 does not meet the requirements, it starts the selection from scratch. Therefore, the killer is often loaded into a lobby where 3-4 players are already present. What does the survs queue need? View the killer's MMR and common server. That's it. Survivors do not host MMR for lobbies, so they find people instantly.
https://youtu.be/6ie4ND-HLp8?si=6U2VGGepMbJI5MO1 -
Can u prove shortage of survivors directly? In vacuum, without killers queue. Pure stats and then we gonna talk more objective. Now, it’s pure assumption
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982398#Comment_3982398
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0GYRU6LIANIL/1000001004.jpg
the longer a queue time, the more over-demanded the role is. killer has longer queue times by far because it is a role a disproportionate number of people play
this does fluctuate throughout the day depending on the region, but queues tend to be quicker for survivor most of the day for every region
Can u provide exact proof that killers queue only depends on survivor numbers? And not something else?
It’s just an assumption. So better provide direct prove of survivors shortage and not indirect through killers. Survivors shortage is when ratio < 1:3
We don’t have this numbers. We don’t have direct statistic.
When players tries to upload numbers themselves, we see that ration is > 1:4
No direct numbers, false assumption. Saying that we have specific side shortage requires actual stats and numbers and less subjective topic than discussion of tunneling
Killer queues can be longer by the most primitive reason: 1 person’s mmr need somehow match every of 4 / total mmr sum. And because survivors pull higher, it requires more time to sort it out
This works in every asymmetrical game, not dbd only
The myth about the lack of survivors comes from a false cause-and-effect relationship of long queues of killers.So again- please, provide direct numbers. Killer queues is about killer queues. It’s 4 vs 1. Matchmaking for one person will run longer because it needs match 4 people and not 1.
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982392#Comment_3982392
Its fine in other games bc the casual mode there is "ranked" too.
Ranked: has a visible rank with clear rules to increase your rank.
Normal/casual: has a hidden mmr with sometimes clear, sometimes unclear rules to increase
You are right, the solution is simple. You dont need two modes, you just need a stricter mmr. But we had that in the test phase. Some players like Otzdarva had huge matchmaking-times, so they changed it.
That just shows how casual players in majority actually is
Comp players have little motivation to play pubs and constantly leave in custom game mode and discord.
That just tells that not try hards can’t deal with other sweaty players, but basically this game doesn't have actual conditions for evident skill expression, so veterans and pros artificially overcomplicate stuff by tournaments with huge list of restriction or extremely hard challenges as streaks