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  • Behaviour's response has always been, "But Survivors can play SWF," so the game never needs to be adjusted to favor Survivors. There is so much which could be done to eliminate Tunneling, it just never is. It is kind of pointless to discuss.

  • Good responses, thank you all. I've never dodged a lobby.

  • Wow, that is some terrible game design. Seriously, who at Behavior comes up with this stuff? Broke keys, do nothing. Luck offerings do not increase luck. You can't make this stuff up. So much wasted potential.

  • Switch the blood marks to streamers and confetti, give them a little goofy party hat with a "100" in gold on it.

  • @Predated said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334774#Comment_3334774

    Yes, and the points you got would also have been reverted. And besides, you would be an exception here, as every single other instance I have seen of DH works exactly like its supposed to.

    This is a scenario of where video footage would be needed on both ends. Because these are things that could have happened:

    1. you were going around the corner with DH, but DH input didnt reach the server untill the killer already swung(this is possible, the game predicts where you are going to run, so if you arent properly connected, the killer will be able to hit you)
    2. you did use it too early, and the game desynced(which requires you to verify gamefiles to get it fixed)

    Thats pretty much the only realistic reasons I can conclude without any video evidence

    Again, you can't see when dh does not work correctly. Because when it does not work it shows nothing. It is impossible to see nothing.

    To be honest lately I have not been getting as many successful dh's where it shows I blocked the hit, got the points , turned white and went down. The last week it has been mostly dh does nothing at all. It just never activates. In one game I tried three different timings. First one I timed correctly but it did not activate for a second. Next one I timed it one second early and it took 1.5 seconds to activate. So the next one I hit it 1.5 seconds early and it activated immediately. Three different timings, three different results, none of them consistent to the previous one. Half a second of dh on a game with incredibly flaky timing issues is ridiculous it is like trying to hit a moving target blindfolded. Since timing is a problem because of servers DH should be buffed so that it works correctly in most instances. I would be cool with the duration of dh not being set but like a golf handicap it changes for every game based off of ping.

  • Most killer perks are passive, that is they change the perimeters of the game to make it more challenging. They do not have to time anything, no button pushing involved. They just get more formidable stats and create a more difficult play environment for survivors. Survivor perks are mostly active perks, that is they require skill to use. All players using dh should expect with a minimal amount of skill to get some use out of the perk.

  • @DBDVulture said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352460#Comment_3352460

    Here's a video showing why you are dead wrong.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouFDP3Iz12s

    We have a ~7k hour streamer who is essentially powerless against DH repeatedly throughout this match.

    DH needs to have a HUGE negative to make it good but situational. It cannot keep "the third health state".

    Either this means : using DH once makes you broken for the match OR DH is a once per game style perk OR it means all healing events take 100% longer for you or when directed at you.

    In other words : you would heal so slowly you would waste all the time you gained in a chase using DH. You would basically play the game hurt and not worry about healing b/c you would have two health states as a result of DH.

    Another clever poster suggested : DH gives an endurance effect but no sprint burst. This would also work.

    So you just proved my point. You understand that right? You posted a video of a streamer with the highest level of internet bandwidth and a known close proxy to a server, which according to my argument would mean he would have success with dh in almost all his games.

  • @Sillymare said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352859#Comment_3352859

    A seasoned survivor is impossible to bait out their deadhard as they have learned to watch for animation and sound cues to activate it with perfect timing every time. Only way to catch them off guard is if you or they are lagging.

    This is not true. There is no way to know when to hit dh or when it will activate based off of visual cues or animations, you get different results (if it works at all) every time. Even within a match the timing is different every time you use it. It is not dependable at all. Even when you time it right and get the points and the onscreen verification that it worked you go down about half the time.

    I do not understand killer mains who complain. Killer is way easier than Survivor. I have a vision problem so first player perspective games make me motion sick. I have no perks and little experience with killer but the few times I've played as killer I get a 4k every time. Every time. Well one time I got a 2k and the other players quit.

  • @GentlemanFridge said:

    With your first issue, we'd need to see some footage to tell what's happening. It sounds like latency, but I haven't hear anyone have it that bad before.

    Your second issue is an input priority thing. As a tip, whatever you're looking at gets priority over 'always available' actions. With lockers/vaults, I can only say we've all been there. Try to press the button a bit later than you would. IIRC, the action you're about to do is displayed on the bottom of the screen. Get some practice in.

    3000 hours in, so I have practice in. I'm talking about lately the prompts are screwed up, it has not always been this bad. The game has been super buggy as of late.

  • And why are prompts so unpredictable? You run toward a window and hit the window to vault and instead you jump in a locker over a meter away. You want to self care but it will give you prompts for every other object in the room, vaults, pallets, totems, etc. Is this lag or poor programming?

  • But DH gives killer more downs and hooks than the killer's own perks. DH needs fixed, but the current mindset at Behaviour is we want more killers, we want less survivors getting points or escaping. DH needs fixed, then we could actually see how it effects games.

  • Deadhard is a hail mary, if you are losing because of dh you are a weak killer. DH works as intended maybe 30% of the time? Maybe less. That means well over half the time when you play against someone using DH you get a free down and hook. In my most recent game I went down 3 times in the same game using DH. First time I used it and timed it correctly, it never activated. Next time I used it one second early, it never activated. Next time I thought, "Ahah, I will use it a second and a half early," it activated immediately. One game, three different random timings for dh, it is impossible to use in a consistent manner within a single game, let alone from one match to the next.

    Everyone who complains about DH is actually saying they are getting by on bad hits and lag.

  • Was he buffed recently? He is appearing more and more and seems to be the current fav of toxic killers.

  • I made a huge mistake. I thought in a game you could figure out when to hit dh based off of the lag from previous hits. YOU CANNOT, the lag is ever changing. This makes the current DH state so much worse. You really have no idea when to hit it, early, late, on time? No idea because timing changes constantly within a match.

  • @sanees said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/365595/color-coded-perk-dots-for-both-killer-and-survivor-by-category

    Learning the game is an important process, if you are constantly holding hands, then it is much less interesting

    I do not see it as handholding. A player would still need to learn what the perks are, but this would be a guided learning process. It is the difference between going to school and instead of one class that is just "knowledge" it is subcategories for the knowledge so you get things like "math", science", and "art." It keeps the challenge of learning but gives structure to the process.

  • @YOURFRIEND said:

    No thank you. No more handholding please.

    Besides, I already know what perks survivors are running. Dead hard, Windows, circle of healing and prove thyself. Don't need any indicators.

    Well if you already know then it should make no difference to you. Your telekinesis helps you out, but for others it would be really helpful. Think of the community not just yourself.

  • At this point Behaviour has enough income and data to add some new game modes. I would love to play DBD as a completely offline single player experience. All bot killers and all bot survivors. Imagine if DBD was like a single player adventure game where you have to beat every killer on every map as a survivor player and where as a killer you had to get 4k kills on every map. This would be fun when I am in an area where there is no internet and would also allow new players to learn the game.

  • Okay if it is not a possibility to team survivors based off of similar skill together, is it possible to give some sort of "golf handicap" to the team? Like take the median skill score of the survivors and compare it to the skill score of the killer, and then assign a handicap based off of the size of the difference. Handicaps could be shorter heal times, shorter gen times, increased aura reading, etc.

    I'm getting pretty good at being able to predict exactly how a game will turn out just from the load screen; how many gens will be done, who dies first, etc. If I can figure out how a game is going to go before one second of play there should be a way an algorithm can do the same thing and adjust the game accordingly.

  • @MoNosEmpire said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/364516/knights-ghosts-idea

    They need to make it so jumping in a locker despawns the ghost lol

    That would be too easy. You want a solution which is fair to both survivors and killers. Deadhard is not run by everyone so making it a solution to block ghost hits would not be OP. Since it is taking up a perk slot it should be a useful perk against any hit, not just the main killer. It works on Nemesis zombies, why not Knight's ghosts?

  • @Blinckx said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3348696#Comment_3348696

    This may happen only with the Assassin because of deep wound, other guards do not inflict deep wounds.

    So basically you're running while in DW due the assassin's stab, the knight spawn another guard and yeah you can not use DH, but that's the same for Legion or Slinger

    Also, the Knight is the only killer for god know why reason who has a buff to survivor built in his own power, if you pick up the banner, you have a speed boost and endurance.

    I've never seen anyone pick up the banner, it is not really an option in actual gameplay.

  • @Predated said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334774#Comment_3334774

    Yes, and the points you got would also have been reverted. And besides, you would be an exception here, as every single other instance I have seen of DH works exactly like its supposed to.

    This is a scenario of where video footage would be needed on both ends. Because these are things that could have happened:

    1. you were going around the corner with DH, but DH input didnt reach the server untill the killer already swung(this is possible, the game predicts where you are going to run, so if you arent properly connected, the killer will be able to hit you)
    2. you did use it too early, and the game desynced(which requires you to verify gamefiles to get it fixed)

    Thats pretty much the only realistic reasons I can conclude without any video evidence

    It is impossible to tell when DH does not work from anyone's vantage point but the user. When it does not work you see nothing happen. How do you know when you are seeing nothing happen? Remember your experience with DH is all based off of how close you are to a server and how few exchanges your signal travels through. If you consistently see DH work you probably live close to a server, it is a whole different experience if you live in the boondocks. If you live in BFE you will always see poor DH performance; plus every single precision time based skill will be terrible. That is how DBD is made; you either have a great game or a horrible lag game. Those with a good experience are blessed and lucky, but they should not look down on those of us who have a poor experience. Be thankful.

  • @PowZapBamWoofMeow said:

    Trial by fire is the best way to learn I think. If you have it easy the first X number of games, what are you going to learn?

    Calm seas do not make a good sailor.

    That is the current model, it drives new players away. Or it drowns sailors, to follow your analogy.

  • @sizzlingmario4 said:

    DH already does work against guards. Completely uncounterable if the survivor does it correctly.

    What do you mean? If you deadhard and they hit you it counts as a blocked hit but you still go down. You get teh points but not the protection, how is that of benefit?

  • @CosmicParagon said:

    Knight is already the weakest Killer in the game besides MAYBE Trapper, he definitely does not need nerfs

    Just wait, open maps with few loops or windows and a skilled Knight killer is torture. You are lucky if you think Knight is nearly as bad as Trapper. You have not met the new breed of Knight Killer with four Gen blocking perks.

  • I think the main problem is there is not a protected core game mechanic. Just way too many perks to try to learn. There should be a base game where not everything can be changed by a perk which greatly alters gameplay. Add to that the fact lag is also a major factor in altering gameplay; it is hard to learn a game which has the tendency to screw players over frequently with bad lag problems.

    So the current course DBD is on is new players will decrease, so there will probably be some attempt at giving the game away, which will result in worse games as new players play a few times and quit, and then the number of older players sticking around will decrease as frustrations trump fun.

  • @Akumakaji said:

    You are right, the game is very rough on new players and got quite the steep curve. Sadly I got no real solution myself, but I know that your solution would get very heavily exploited by the millions of free Epic Game store account some people got. Just start a new account to get that juicy 20 games of "know your killers perks" and feed that info to your SWF.

    I think this is true, but probably not as big of a problem as it is made out to be. If you just want to play with a free Epic pass then you are not going to ever build up any characters. Let the cheats just keep making new accounts and being stuck at the shallow end of the player pool.

  • @jinx3d said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333778#Comment_3333778

    another way to not go down is to play the game better and not rely on the busted third health state on command perk

    The old "Get Gud" insult. Real classy. There is no way you can get good enough to compensate for a different unpredictable gaming environment every match. I guess you could say get wimpy, quit playing aggressively, avoid chases, hide in a locker, duckwalk the whole game, leave your teammates to die on hook. That is not my playing style.

    I have all the characters, I have all the perks, I have 50+ of every item (common items I have over 300 of each.) I don't need bloodpoints, I don't need to level characters up. I play for the chases and interactions with the killers, that is what is fun for me. This means I am constantly in chase, constantly getting saves and taking protection hits. I play aggressively and want perks which perform at the same level I do-CONSISTANTLY. If a race car driver's car only performed well on certain days in certain races he would complain to his pit crew to fix it so it worked correctly everytime. Saying, "well in that race last week your brakes worked okay, why complain that in this race you had no brakes?" is silly. There should be consistency in the game, it is what I experience in Fortnite and COD (okay, relatively consistent.)

  • @Predated said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333760#Comment_3333760

    But... they fixed it like 1 year ago. Dead Hard is now a dedicated action. If a killer downs you if you "succesfully" used Dead Hard, then you didnt use it succesfully. Back in the day, killer ping was the main deciding factor for your Dead Hard to actually work. But now, if the killer's hit arrives at the server before your dead hard arrives at the server, then they simply hit you. If they arrive in the same order, Dead Hard even has priority.

    So really, this is either a ping issue or a skill issue on your side.

    No they did not fix it. I can run around a corner and hit dh before the killer even knows I am coming, I dart out in front of him, dh, turn white when he swings and hits (he is reacting, so he is hitting his button after me) and I will go down. I get the points, screen upper right says I successfully performed dh, I hit my key first, I turn white showing the hit was dh blocked, and I will go down. When you say I am not successfully using it, you mean I am not being successful at using it in a way which works in the current game environment. In other words, I did not use the perk in a way other than the perk's description describes.

  • @Blueberry said:

    Yeah let’s just halve the cooldown on already the best perk in the game lol

    I think there are some folks who live close to servers and other players so they have a totally different playing experience. Behaviour must only play test in house on a land network. There is no way if you experienced what real players do in the real world that deadhard would not be overhauled to work with actual gamer experiences. First game today against a doctor, I successfully dh three times one of them was dh and pallet drop. I stunned him with the pallet and blocked all three hits with dh; I went down and was hooked all three times. That is unacceptable for a game. Seriously something is really messed up with the game. I know how the perk is supposed to work, once in a blue moon all the variable are in alignment and I have a good game, but on the usual it is ridiculous how unreliable the perk is. Killers who complain are clueless, they either are poor killers and need the poor mechanics to assist them or they are not savvy enough to realize how many cheap downs they are getting. Any talk of nerfing DH is laughable, it gives killers so many unearned downs that a buff is unquestionably in order. Because of lag and latency 0.5 seconds is a high skillmark to try to reach; you aren't just timing it correctly, you are trying to read the computer's mind to figure out timing, latency, hitbox lag, and individual killer's swing times. Remember survivor's perks are almost all active skill based. Killer's rely on passive perks; that is they are not hitting a button or relying on timing, their perks are passive and change the game environment and parameters without timing or button hitting.

  • @Gandor said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333776#Comment_3333776

    he is basically complaining about lag hits (aka pokos). This is general problem with DBD that is for unknown reason much worse in this game then in any other online game (FPS games included - which makes it a little weird as those are more sensitive for this thing). It's not exclusive on DH. It includes M1 hits (especially next to windows), dropping pallet stunning killer but getting hit regardless, killers like huntress being able to hit you with hatched from behind the corner and so on.

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333770#Comment_3333770

    That's not how DBD works. In dbd the worse ping killer has, the better for him. When killer sees on his screen that the survivor is just in front of him, then he can push M1 and make the hit. It does not mean anything that the survivor is possibly 4m away behind some obstacle. The hit registers regardless, because killer's client sends information "I hit this survivor" instead of sending to server "I am here and hitting my M1 in this direction - server please tell me if that's a hit". This works also in the other direction - survivor when seeing killer somewhere where the killer is no longer can still stun him with that pallet. But the problem is, that most of the really important interactions are done on killer's side. This can be seen the best in chase - killer will get double benefit from this. When killer has ping and changes direction, then survivor will have that much less time to react to that change. It's only natural that survivors will complain about it.

    That being said. I don't think DH should get any buff

    You understand. Imagine if DBD worked like it is supposed to in all the instances you mention. It would be a funner game on both sides. I've worked in design on video games in the past and the problems with this game are bizarre, most game programmers I know are also perplexed at its poor performance in hit validation; they all can be mitigated with better code.

  • @FMG15 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/362833/halve-exhaustion-for-dh

    Why should we buff the strongest exhaustion perk in the game especially in a time where the community is very divided about nerfing it or not? "I successfully deadharded 4 times and each time I went down" Yeah that's not successfully deadharding then. If the perk is not working why can the popular streamers pull it off consistently then? Sounds more like a you problem tbh.

    Hmmm...maybe you do not watch the popular streamers? Every one of them who streams constantly successfully dh and go down. Maybe you have selective hearing? Listen to their comments and watch their streams. Probably the easiest one to observe this on is the JRM. I want the game fair for both sides. If a killer could not hook because of a broken game function I would not try to dissuade them from asking for a solution. Why do you want the game to remain broken? Are you a killer main and don't care about fairness?

    You do raise a good point, though. The game perk is even more broken because sometimes it does not even activate, I was not talking about the times you hit dh and nothing happens at all and you go down without getting the points for a successful block. That needs addressed as well. I would remove the prerequisite that the survivor needs to be running to dh. The game also has trouble discerning if a survivor is continuously running, for instance if you change direction while running the game does not count that as still running and does a new "run check" to see if the survivor is running, even though they never stopped. This run check is quite susceptible to returning a false negative and will not allow you to activate dh. Thank you for pointing out the perk is more broken than I originally described.

  • @Zexbunny said:

    Halving it does nothing for you in this situation. You most likely got hooked shortly after, in which case you lost your exhaustion from being hooked. Maybe once, since you went down 4 times, you were slugged. But you recover from exhaustion while slugged. I just don't see how this mitigates your issue.

    Just use a different exhaustion perk. There's a few others if dead hard gives you so much trouble.

    You are correct. Shortening the exhaustion would do nothing in preventing me going down, but it is supposed to. Since the perk cannot do what it is designed to do it needs some other incentive for players to use it. I'm also juking and spinning so sometimes the killer misses when he swings, but he is still chasing me so a faster recovery would be useful in those situations, but you are correct it would not prevent a down.

    I look for fair solutions for both sides, killer and survivor. My suggestion would not impede a good killer but it would probably frustrate the weak killers who erroneously think they have skill but are simply getting downs because they are relying on poor game mechanincs to assist them.

  • @Shroompy said:

    Just because you pressed the button to activate it doesnt mean you used it correctly. Thats like saying that if I see a Survivor as Huntress they should automatically take a hit simply because I tapped M2, no aiming required.

    DH only has a .5 second window, thats not a lot to work with making you have to read when the killer is going to swing.

    I got the points for a dh block and the screen also stated I successfully avoided the hit up in the right corner. So it isn't like I mistimed it, I did it correctly.

  • @sanees said:

    I swear if the survivors are given the opportunity to kill the killer if they press 2 buttons, then the survivors will flood the entire forum with tears saying why should we press 2 buttons and not 1

    This is the sort of unhelpful remark which you should avoid making. This is an actual problem with the game working as intended. The developers have been unable to fix it for three years. No one is asking to change the game and make it so you can kill killers.

  • Also it is standard practice on surveys to put up totals and percentages, otherwise the data does not serve the survey takers. It would be eye opening to see how folks are ranking their fun.

  • @NewPlayer100102 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3320701#Comment_3320701

    You need to trigger Eruption with a down.

    You of course know that, I guess you're just implying it takes no skill to down a survivor.

    And somedays, you're right.

    But not when it matters.

    So if you did not have eruption you would not be attempting to down survivors? See it is really apples and oranges. Unless I am being chased and already injured I would not dh. Dh is not an action I would do anyways.

  • Eruption is a passive perk, it requires no skill and works 100% of the time as intended.

    DH is a precision skill based perk with around a 20-30% probability working as intended.

    If in your mind these are equal in some way other than they take up a perk slot you are out of touch.

  • Like here is another example. Remember in early builds when you almost always got a speed boost after a hit as a survivor? Now it is equally likely you will get no speed boost after a hit. This creates a greater sense of tension because you can't expect the game to work correctly or dependably every game. Does this make it more horror-ish? Does the variation in physics and rules make it more fun for you because it is more like a horror movie where nothing works right for the victems?

  • @Stabby_Widdershins said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3319560#Comment_3319560

    You are ignoring that people have already said people don't have to be in SWFs to message the other players.

    You're basically ignoring the exact reason why, then saying 'There's no reason why!'. But ignoring facts does not make them go away.

    I'll reiterate:

    Because someone could die, then private message the other 3 Survivors, and say 'He has NoED' or 'He has Blood Warden' or 'He has No Way Out'.

    So the answer is "Because people would cheat." and they do not have to be an SWF to do it.

    They could do lots of things, but that is not a reason to punish those who don't. If a killer is going to win or lose based off of his perks being a mystery that really ain't that strong of a killer right? Killers already are in an op positioned, they can't die.

  • I think you are missing the point and focusing on the example given.

    Is part of dbd's charm that it is broken and an unreliable playing experience or would you like it to work the same and be stable and balanced?

  • @Bardon said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3318169#Comment_3318169

    There is no way for the game to detect if you're solo. Because this was abused in the past, now everybody lost the option.

    Correct, but that is not a reason to punish non-swf solo players. That is just stating it is a possibility.

  • @[Deleted User] said:

    Isn’t that an issue in itselfif it was happening as you claim, that one perk is carrying the game for everyone?

    That is an MMR issue which is another can of worms. I have 5000 hours in. I know the game in and out. I consistently get paired with folks with under 200 hours. The type who hide half the game in lockers and crouch walk away from all objectives the other half of the game. So sometimes the single good player has to carry the game. But I think that is part of the dwindling player base problem.

  • @HugTechLover said:

    I… I don’t get the point…

    Are you saying that you (along with every teammate) died 4 games in a row… because of not being able to hit DH?

    No I successfully hit dh, the game mechanics consistently give you the points for a successful dh block while also downing you. It is a lag problem where the game registers it both ways (successful and unsuccessful dh simultaneously).

  • @StarLost said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/361076/why-not-show-killers-perks

    Because SWF.

    Someone would just call out 'oh, he doesn't have NOED but he does have Blood Warden, so careful' and boom, they know.

    I only play solo ques. My cats are the only ones I talk to while playing. Killers get to see items at beginning of game and prepare, why not let the majority of players who are not talking to anyone (few games are 4 swf teams) know the killer's perks.

  • @WesCravenFan said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3318063#Comment_3318063

    Is your argument here seriously "If some people are screwing killers, all of them should be able to!" ?

    your comment makes no sense, knowing the killer's perks is not in anyway screwing them.

  • @Triplehoo said:

    It would give a huge advantage to SWF's... The dead player could tell other survivors what perks the killer is running.

    SWF is an option and not the default play mode. Most players are solo ques so why punish the majority of players to benefit the few?

  • @StarLost said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/360930/what-is-the-proper-response-to-cheaters

    Reporting them absolutely does work, but BHVR - I think - bans in waves.

    The problem with an option like that would be that everyone would just use it when they want out of a match/to BM.

    If you don't want a DC penalty, your best bet is to basically park somewhere, facing a wall and go get a cup of coffee. They'll get bored.

    I have never heard of anyone getting banned but I have run into multiple cheaters who have been reported but who are still playing.

  • They should just remove the run requirement from DH. I would say DH fail is the biggest cause of lost games. Not misuse or user error, but just the game not activating dh when it should.

  • @HugTechLover said:

    This post makes no sense lol. You had to have been hit twice, or he waited your BT. There is no perk or adding that disputes BT.

    My advice, don’t try and take a hit for the unhooker. It’s a sure fire way of getting tunneled.

    This post makes sense because it is what happens, it is the game which does not make sense. That is why I posted, I think the game is messing up but wanted to double check with others.


    I don't mind being tunneled sometimes. Depends on the killer and the map. I can run a clown for a long time if I have a good map and game mechanics work correctly. I hate when you outplay the killer and go down looking foolish because the game does something unexpected.

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