mouse0270
mouse0270
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To be honest if this is happening to you so much you want a universal base kit change to killers, I would suggest you change your play style or run a perk that accommodates your playstyle such as Deerstalker.
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@Archimedes5000 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1133963#Comment_1133963
Well lets see what I understood wrong I guess...
There was 80% chance of Ruin being in killers loadout, this means killer had 100% chance of having 3 perks that are NOT Ruin (3 out of 65) and 20% (100-80)% chance of NOT having Ruin even in the 4th slot.
So yeah, 80% killers using Ruin means 80% games are with Ruin.
No idea what the 25% is supposed to mean, but yeah, Ruin was used too much.
Well yes, thats what I said, 46% surviviors using DS does NOT mean DS appears in 46% games. Its you who is wrong, the 90% does factor PRECISELY the fact that there are 4 surviviors, because 1-(1-0.46)^4=~0.91
So chance of AT LEAST 1 DS appearing in a game is around 91%.
46% usahe rate means that it is most likely to find 2 DSes in one game, this means that you have that you have to be prepared for DS EVERY game if you want to win.
And how DS is not abused in surviviors favour? It gives you 60 seconds of doing gens uninterrupted, and gives you increased chance to escape when caught. Not to mention you can force the stun by going to a locker. And the stun can break the whole momentum of the game, break pressure and allow for free escapes in the endgame. Surviviors with DS active often unhook others, because they know they have a second chance.
My point was you cant compare a perk showing up in a game at the same level as it does for a killer. Survivor perks can show up 4 times per match where killer perks can show up only once per match.
So you have to compare how many survivors run that perk perk game, which is 46%, meaning you are like to have 1-2 survivors bring DS, however if DS usage was at say 60-70% than yes, I would say it should be treated like ruin. But its not. You're arguments seem like since it shows up 1-2 times per game when it has 4 different chances to show up that it should be treated like ruin.
Also, if you are getting DS a lot, you need to look at your play style, for example, tonight I played 5 games, every game had 1-2 DS users except the last one. I got a 4k on every game and never once Saw DS. I didn't tunnel (while one guy called a cross the match hatchet as tunneling) nor did I camp hooks. The last game of the night had no DS users and guess what 2 people got out.
The meta survivor perks are only an issue if you let them be an issue or a survivor forces it to be an issue. For example, a survivor was unhooked and saw me coming for the rescuer... He literally blocked my path and forced me to hit him, I still chose to chase the other person and still got a 4k that.
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@RobMeister88 said:
Solo gen speed isn't a problem, it's the speed when two or more people work on it that's the problem. Instead of drastically cutting gen times with multiple people working on gens, it should only be 5% speed progression for each 2nd person on the gen. So 80 seconds for one person, around 75 for 2 people, around 64 for 3 people, and around 52 for 4 people. And nerf Prove Thyself to only a 5% bonus speed progression instead of 10%. It'd be more practical and balanced than just nerfing/buffing 1v1 aspects of chases which is apparently the only thing Devs think they need to balance around, when it's common knowledge that even if you down someone in 10 seconds, two gens can still pop off simultaneously.
Do you even see the problem with this?
You do realize 3 survivors working on 1 gen is better than 3 survivors working on 3 gens... This type of change would encourage survivors to work on different gens instead of the same gen. Why would 2 survivors work on the same gen if they can work on two different gens and complete it in almost the exact amount of time.
You lose 2 gens as a killer instead of 1
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Um... I literally just don't like healing, I am half decent at looping and can generally keep a chase up for about 60 seconds while injured. Healing takes 32 seconds away I could be doing a generator, if you would have helped me work on the generator in our face than trying to heal me, we would have been half way through it.
The only time I let people heal me, is huntress, because range attacks.
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@Tactless_Ninja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1133915#Comment_1133915
If it became baseline, then the perks would be adjusted regardless. Dying + Than they could either cap the effects percentage or make Dying only affect action speeds, and Than affect uninjured survivors like it already does.
Oh right, to clarify the original post was only for each injured survivor on an individual basis. It wouldn't spread to the rest of the team. So Thanataphobia would still have a niche.
Pop relies on hooking survivors first. Surge and Corrupt, literally nothing changes?
@Maníaco_da_garrafa : Totems are an endangered species sir. I'd prefer them not to be the center of your genocide campaign.
The point was the devs, are trying to prevent people from stacking slowdown perks to increase their chances of 4k-ing. They said something similar to this as to being one of the reasonings for the ruin change during their dev stream.
Before asking if the game needs to be slowed down, keep track of how many kills per game you go over 100 games (realistically this is about a months worth of games, if you want quicker results try 30 games) and see how many kills you get on average. If you are averaging 2 kills per game, then technically you are where the devs want you to be.
If you are not averaging 2 kills per game, then it means you are either very very very unlucky with your matchmaking or are playing against survivors above your skill level.
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@Archimedes5000 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1133774#Comment_1133774
What? Both this stats and 80% ruin usage is from red rank games only. I dont understand your point.
Ruin was used in around 80% red rank games
DS is used in about 90% red rank games
You clearly don't understand how usage stats work. For a perk to show up in 80% of games as a killer is ridiculous, as there are currently 66 killer perks. That and each perk has only a 25% chance of being used. Now factoring in meta, you increase and decrease those chances, but they should never be increased to the point of being in 4 out of 5 games.
Now the problem is as a survivor, its no longer game based, because each perk has the chance to be used 4 times. Simply saying it shows up in 90% of games does not factor into the fact that it has a 4 times the number of chances to be picked. Once again, this doesn't include the increased chance of being picked because it is a meta perk.
Now once again, the ruin specific perk was compounded by the fact that it was increasingly used to considerably balance the games in the killers favor, often being paired with perks such as Pop, Dying Light, Sloppy or thanatophobia.
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I love hitting someone 5 feet behind the wall with a hatchet than getting blocked by a 5 pixel big branch.
Though that sounds sarcasting, the huntress hatchets always make me smile.
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The problem is there are slow down perks already, Dying Light, Pop, Thanatophobia, Sloppy, Surge and Corrupt. Adding base debuff like this would be an extreme buff to all of these perks.
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@mrgrimes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1133863#Comment_1133863
Yeah you're right about stop tunneling, but when you choose to kill a survivor, you can't because he saves doing nothing thanks to a stupid perk. if you don't tunnel against good SwF , you lose, at least if you don't use killers like nurse, spirit or billy.
You do realize a slugged survivor is 3 survivors doing nothing right? 1 is on the ground, 1 should be in chase and 1 should be picking the slugged guy up.
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I consider myself a killer main, about 80% Killer 20% survivor. I believe I am red rank at both currently.
I would like to pose you a question @dustedstar do you think a killer should on average get 2 kills a game or 3+? Because this is really what you have to look into before we can discuss gen times. First of all the devs have stated that their aim is an average of 2 kills and 2 escapes a game (Yes I am aware there in game messaging disagrees with this). But how often do it get less than 2 kills per game, or would you find you average about 2 kills per game?
Now to speak about your gen time issue specifically, My issue with "gen times" is no one has provide a decent solution to the problem. The biggest one people suggest is to increase the time from 80 seconds to 100 seconds. But when I play survivor I get so bored of holding M1 for 80 seconds, I usually just run and find the killer to get chased. I would never play survivor if you told me it would take nearly 2 minutes to complete 1 generator. I would become a 100% killer main.
The next thing people often suggest is, a Secondary Objective for survivors to focus on. Which I am no opposed to, but what would their reward be for doing that objective. It would have to be something good to make up on the 5k BP they would be losing by just not focusing and doing gens.
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So literally what it is with 20 seconds less?Miss read that, you were saying, if being chased for X seconds than it activates.
The problem is it does nothing to prevent killers from just downing your right off unhook, it would just make Borrowed time much more popular.
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@BigTimeGamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1133730#Comment_1133730
Your reward for hitting ruin checks was not regressing and improving your inherent ability to hit skill checks in general. It also added a slight challenge to doing gens outside holding M1. Changing ruin without addressing the reasons why it was so prevalent is pathetic.
It was prevalent because people refused to learn how to play without it. Remember 1/5 of the games didn't even need ruin. To be fair to ruin though, one killer in my opinion needed it, Trapper. But every other killer either needed to do as your saying other survivors needed to do "git gud".
Also before you go, of course the entitled survivor main would say that, I am a killer main that consistently hit red ranks and I never even made the perk teachable.
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Discordance, Ez. Discordance tells you when multiple people are working on a gen, allowing you to quickly pressure more than one survivor.
Tinkerer, doesn't warn you until they are almost done, which can be more useful when you have survivors working on different gens instead of the same gen.
Though why not run both? I would be happy to see a mix up from the "Enduring, Pop, Infections fright" Billy builds.
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If you mean rage 100% of the time without fail? EZ Iri Heads Huntress... As a huntress main this hurts my soul to its very core.
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@BigTimeGamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1133628#Comment_1133628
Or you can, like myself and many others, learn to hit skillchecks
it’s second nature at this point and even combo’d with pop games were still fine, assuming your team weren’t potatos.
now it’s M1 while sleeping
You realize your argument is, design the game around a mechanic that is supposed to reward players with a higher skill than the actual mechanic. I've always hated the argument, "git gud, hit greats". Hitting great skill checks isn't the way that mechanic was designed, it was meant to reward those players for getting better not to be the way the game was meant to be played.
assuming your team weren’t potatoes.
Solo survivors have zero control over this, crap when I do play SWF at least one of my four friends will potato all night long.
As to your last statement, its counter productive to your point. Your point being, I was already hitting great skill checks so it didn't really matter, followed by now its just M1 while sleeping. Ruin actually made you hold M1 longer with no reward for hitting great skill checks. Without ruin you get to hold M1 less, even more so if you are always hitting the great skill checks.
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@BigTimeGamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1124868#Comment_1124868
It’s also a bigger population with more viable perks so of course the % will be lower
its just logical
The most common survivor perks complained about (DS, Borrowed Time and Unbreakable) have easy ways to counter them probably 80% of the time.
- DS: Literally slug or chase someone else.
- BT: Chase the rescuer
- Unbreakable: Don't slug for more than 30 seconds.
Where as Ruin went one of 3 ways and it really depended and where the totem spawned.
- Was cleansed in the first minute of the game, be completely useless
- Was cleansed within the first 3 minutes of the game, which is I think what the devs wanted out of it
- Lasted so long the survivors stood no chance against it.
Also everyone keeps bringing up the usage factor of Ruin and skipping completely over the other reason the Dev's said they wanted to change ruin. It was simply to strong of a perk combo when combined with Pop. To be fair, until killers made Ruin+Pop a standard, I never really minded ruin before. Basically a percentage of killers found a way to easily secure a 4k every game ruining the experience for the other 4 players in the match.
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To be honest, its better than the dark ages. There are still bugs, but this game gets new mechanics every 3 months, its always just going to have bugs.
As for balance, I think they are taking all the right steps, I won't suggest the changes I would make because it's just going to start a riot.
As to your point, of all the doom and gloom around recent updates. I contribute that to a lot of people unwilling to accept a tie as a good thing. Honestly if 6 outta of 10 of your games are a tie and the other 4 are with 0-1 kills or 3-4 kills, it means the game is in a pretty decent state.
Technically I think if I am playing a killer I am better at such as huntress or spirit over ones like Ghost Face or Oni, I generally get 2-3 kills a game. Which seems fair to me.
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@NullEXE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1133475#Comment_1133475
All I have to say about BHVR taking statistics. Hopefully they learned from the Ruin nerf, that you shouldn't make such big game changing updates on just a flat statstic alone. Figure out "Why is this perk being used most often in high ranks" rather than "80% in high ranks is using this perk, therefore it's broken, and needs to be nerfed. Why? Because the bad survivors said so".
Then again they do only show to have that "Will the survivor have fun" only mindset when making changes anyways, so I probably shouldn't put hope there.
I mean that ruin nerf only effected 80% of the killers at red ranks. For example, I am a red rank killer main who plays a wide range of killers including Huntress, Spirit, Piggy, Ghost Face and Oni. I've never even made ruin a teachable to use on any killer and I still managed to get to red ranks.
Was it harder? Probably. But being a part of the 1/5 part of killers who didn't use ruin at red ranks, I actually wanted ruin changed. I won't admit that every one of my games have been perfect, I've easily had games where the right group of SWF work got gens done super quick and I just lost, but those were always such outliers it never really mattered to me. For example, out of all my killer games this past weekend, I got on average 3 kills, with more 4k's than 0-1k games.
I honestly believe the reason there are so many killers on here complaining about how complicated it is to "win" the game is simply because they care more about their own enjoyment to get the statsification out of tie. The game is a competitive 1v4 game in which the dev's have said they want an average of 2 kills and 2 escapes per match. Which to me says, people need to worry less about getting a 4k and just try to have more fun in the game.
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In a game where gens can be done in 88 seconds
I am assuming you are adding 8 seconds for all survivors to find and start a gen, as it only takes 80 seconds for a single survivor to complete a gen. This would mean as a killer you are applying zero pressure to the game.
Realistically the quickest 5 gens could be done is about 136 seconds. That is 3 survivors using a Commodious Toolbox working on three individual gens and then as a group all three working on the last two together. Add about 10-20 seconds for travel time to get to gens, you are looking at 146-156 seconds with the most optimized team on the servers and you as a killer basically doing nothing.
Now to your post point, It would be interesting to see DS run down well preforming actions, for example, working a gen decreases DS timer BY 3 times, healing another survivors is 2 times, healing yourself is at normal rate. Don't tunnel the injured survivors self caring in a corner basically.
I actually suggest this a lot, DS should deactivate if the killer hooks another survivor, only on the condition that the user with DS is not slugged. I usually also say, DS should tick down at half (or two thirds) rate when slugged.
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I mean everything is reportable, its probably more of an issue of how often you get reported for that thing. For example this weekend I had a killer game in which my Boss called me at the start, couldn't DC so I went and stood against a wall and talked to him for about 3 minutes. Once I started playing again, two of the survivors kept running to the main building on Grim Pantry with the good window.
I already lost that game and I just wanted to get a few good chases in before it was over to have some fun. I don't find those chases fun, so I just went and stood at the exit gate. Opened and waited for everyone to leave. I think one of the survivors were still pretty mad even after I explained myself, but the two others that were talking were like, "okay"
On the flip side of that, I don't play against Iri head huntress, doesn't matter if they are good or bad, I simply refuse to. As a huntress main it hurts my soul to see them and I just refuse to play against them and will always kill myself on first hook. To be fair, I never DC'ed to an Iri Head huntress even before the penalties, but I would still always kill myself on first hook to at least give them there stack of BBQ if they were running it.
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@NullEXE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1124505#Comment_1124505
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1124508#Comment_1124508
I wonder if we gonna get hit with the "The statistic's we're greatly skewed" next.
This is why they want to alway's hide statistic's they take, and the ranks. Then the community can't call them on responses like this, while they directly defend only caring about the Survivors fun in the game.
I mean from what players who manually track data, the values they say they see seem accurate. For example, I started recording, what survivors, perks, items and addons I saw as killer. I've only got about 30 games worth of data so far. Which is not enough for an accurate calculation of usage in games. Yes, Perks like DS and Borrowed time are in the most used perks, neither of those break 50% usage. EDIT: Unbreakable isn't even the top 10 most common perks
However people seem to forget that if every perk was perfectly balanced, you only have up to 4 killer perks per game, but you can have up to 16 survivor perks perk game. So yes to the people that say, I see DS every game, ya, you probably do, I am currently tracking about 40% usage, which means I should expect 1-2 survivors per game to run it.
BHVR specifically talks about usage stats overall, meaning how many survivors run the perk in all of the games over all, not how often a perk shows up per game. Which does not really favor killers, they have fewer perks than all survivors combined per game.
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I prefer going against SWF, it actually makes the game a challenge. Most games I find without SWF I 4k before 4 gens are done.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1128953#Comment_1128953
Which is, 2 per match. It needs to be at 75% or higher for it to be 3 kills.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1128974#Comment_1128974
It's 2. Based on the graph they showed. Freedy being the closest to 3.
Though your not wrong the american census bureau would like to have a talk with you because you can have 2.6 of people.
Basically you are correct when rounding, but looking at the numbers about 7 killers range from 2.5-2.75 kills per game where the other 10 range between 2.25-2.5 with nurse being a outlier at about 1.9
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@Alice_pbg said:
They already are at an average of 2 kills per trial.
If they change something affecting all killers, the ones at the bottom will fall below 2 kills, meaning they would need a buff.
This is a false dicotomy, these aren't the only answers
If I remember correctly, they said the average kill rate was about 3 per game not 2. However, I do believe the devs are trying to make it so the game is based around an average of 2-3 kills a game with a 4k being the outlier, not common.
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I don't mind insta-downs that are built into a killers basekit, I hate addons, that give killers an insta down. Looking at you Huntress and Clown
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The devs shouldn't punish people for dying on hook. People complained about DC'ing because it was abusing the leave game mechanic in a way it most likely wasn't intended to be used. Dying on hook works as intended. You have the ability to attempt to "kobe" if you fail, you have the choice to struggle or not to struggle.
Just because you dislike it doesn't mean its not a legit strat. So many killers use the fact that the game lets you tunnel, camp and slug as a justification for doing so, the game also lets you die on hook.
Now to be fair, I don't know your preferred role or your playstyle, so this next part might not be directly related to you, but is more of a generalized standpoint.
It is unfair to say one side can use tactics to play a game that the otherside finds unfun while not abusing game mechanics, and then complain when the other side uses game mechanics to avoid unfun playstyles.
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To me, dropping god pallet will always be considered a waste unless at least one of the following conditions are true:
- To save someone from being carried into the basement
- There is 1 or less gens remaining
I also would consider dropping a pallet as a waste if you are fully healed, excluding killers with an insta down.
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Who else sees this problem?
For example, when you are chasing a survivor for a short distance but the game never starts a chase or when you are chasing someone for a long time, but never get bloodlust.
The first one actually happens a lot, it's hard for the game to know when your chasing a survivor if the survivor is not running. The reason being, the devs don't want to start a chase if a survivor happens to dash and you are not directly looking at them because than the killer would be instantly notified that a survivor is in the area. It would basically be free whispers.
So they probably have a set of conditions that have to be met before the game decides you are in a chase, without being a developer, here are my best guesses on what some of those conditions might be
- A certain amount of the survivors hitbox must be within the survivors line of sight without any interference.
- The Survivor must be running
So that really isn't a lot of conditions, its just the two easiest and most likely that I can think of.
As for the second part, why don't you always get bloodlust, while most likely the chase is being broken up and the game is counting it as small multiple chases instead of one long chase.
Though, as I said before, I am not a developer nor do I have any knowledge of how the game works on the back end. I am just taking educated guesses based on how I would at least start designing these mechanics.
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Adrenalin is a much stronger perk than NOED, at least in my opinion. The main and most important reason, if the survivors do totems, NOED never activates, Adrenalin always activates as long as the survivors is alive. Even if I hook the survivor, the minute they get off, fully and healed and sprint bursting away.
Dead hard works perfectly fine if you use it for distance instead of being greedy and trying to avoid a hit at the very last second.
That is actually a fair point about killers complaining about gen speeds, I've had a killer in the same night complain the game was two quick when it took a little over 8 minutes. But got him again about an hour later and slugged us all in under 3. He had no complaints about the second match. I actually never thought of that argument.
I pretty much agree with you on everything else.
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@Peanits said:
You would have had to sit still for at least a minute to get that crow. You can avoid them completely by moving a little bit.
To be fair, I remember a game where a circled a box for about 1-2 minutes hiding from a huntress and got a crow, its more than a little bit.
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I am actually writing an AI script that allows you to upload a photo of the end game screen and it determines what ranks, perks, items and addons were being used during that game. This data can then be reported off of.
Basically its community based stats. To be fair, its inline with the data the devs have released.
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@Edys lets be honest, this game isn't called Bugged by Daylight for nothing. As much as I love DBD, its got it's bugs. We can keep "bumping" this thread with new bugs for years. lol
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@Nobsyde said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1126944#Comment_1126944
it is already pointed out: Killer Instinct is active only after you hit someone with feral frenzy - I tried to be more concise, but you are absolutely right anyway.
See I only play legion a bit, I didn't understand the difference between frenzy and killer instinct. Oddly has anyone tested if you lose generator aura's when Ghost Face's Killer Instinct happens, It would be helpful for the devs to know if it is a legion specific issue or a Killer Instinct issue
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@Edys I would like to point out that the legion bug only prevents you from seeing generator aura's after you hit someone with feral frenzy, you can see them before you hit a survivor.
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@Peanits can I ask why there isn't an official thread like this pinned to the feedback section of the site? It would really help in showing what has been reported, what you have listed as intended, what is still unknown and what isn't reported
This guy even did an amazing job using icons to make it clear the status of each bug status.
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Survivor: When a killer slugs the 3rd survivor without knowing where the fourth survivor is.
Killer: When I get hit with a DS within the exit gates, to me the survivor is saying, "Hey man thanks for not tunneling all game, but you really should have because I get an easy escape now"
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@Jallybwan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1124337#Comment_1124337
- Alright, you play killers from all parts of the tier list. Fair enough.
- Ahhh, I see now. Personally, I think classifying a tie as a win or a loss defeats the entire purpose of having a tie in the first place - in my eyes, a tie is a tie, no more and no less.
- Camping and tunnelling don't net you kills, and if they do, chances are you shouldn't be at that rank anyway. You need to be juggling four survivors at once, and these two "strategies" are quite similar - they force you to juggle one survivor while the others do gens. There are absolutely times when camping or tunnelling is appropriate, but these times are rare. As for slugging, virtually every killer has to rely on it at some point. Ask pretty much any skilled killer main (I'd recommend Fungoose, Scott, Otz or Zubat) and you'll get the same answer - even these guys have to slug. So yes, killers rely on slugging a lot. Doing otherwise means throwing the game, unless the survivors you're against are significantly below your skill level.
- It's totally fine that you don't mind Unbreakable! I admire your ability to not get frustrated. Just realize that, for quite a few people, Unbreakable is incredibly frustrating simply because a single survivor running it can turn a 4k into a 0k by holding M1. It completely hardcounters slugging, which, as mentioned before, is often necessary in order to come out on top.
- DS is meant to be an anti-tunnel perk, so it shouldn't punish killers who aren't tunnelling. All it needs is to deactivate when another survivor is hooked.
1. Skipping over the first point as I think we have clarified, I am not playing just top tier killers. Moving onto the other points
Ahhh, I see now. Personally, I think classifying a tie as a win or a loss defeats the entire purpose of having a tie in the first place - in my eyes, a tie is a tie, no more and no less.
2. You are correct, a tie is a tie, it's not a win or a loss. However I believe this is where you and are having a different opinion, so let me ask you. Assuming a killer is playing with survivors of equal skill level should they win, lose, or tie more often? Because if you ask me, they should tie more often then either losing or winning.
3. Alright this is a big one, so let me break it into sections. First of all, both camping and tunnelling nets you kills. There is very little argument against this. If you camp someone for two stages, you netted a kill. I think you meant to say, camping and tunneling don't net you a win. And I will disagree with that, but really only with camping. Because unless the survivors are being bad and trying to go for the save, camping someone should net you between 1-2 kills per game.
However, tunneling is a little different. Tunneling is a little different because how many kills it nets you is more based off the perks the survivors run. For example, if you have your standard meta survivor build of BT and DS, then tunneling is going to net you around 2-3 kills most likely. However if the survivors are not running those or really only running one of them, this number is more likely to be 3-4 kills a game. It's simply easier and quicker to down the injured survivor off hook than to chase a fully healed survivor.
Now for your last point, slugging. Ignoring you called me an unskilled killer simply because I don't want to rely on a tactic that inflates my winning statistics, This once again goes back to my first statement, Assuming a killer is playing with survivors of equal skill level should they win, lose, or tie more often? Because if you go with the logic that on average a killer should tie more often than not, then no slugging is not something you need to rely. It's only something needed to rely on if you are trying to get a 4k. Everyone one of those killers 4k more often than not because for some reason they feel entitled to a win instead of a tie.
4. This once again becomes a point of "winning". People seem to get upset over unbreakable because it is such a hard counter to slugging. Which as you said before, many "high" skilled killer rely on for 4k. However, slugging is a "legit" tactic, unbreakable clearly shows that the devs don't think it is entirely a fair tactic. The devs have many survivors based perks that hard counter "unfun" killer tactics such as Tunneling and Slugging, and they provide little to no perks that encourage it on the killer side. I see this more as the devs saying, "Sure tunneling, camping and slugging are legit tactics you can use, but we want you to use other tactics so were given survivors the ability to counter these tactics".
5. I mostly agree with this, because it is annoying to catch the last second of someones DS. However, they would have to balance that. Because it shouldn't deactivate if you slugged them, then hooked someone else. Otherwise killers would just slug the DS person, hook the rescuer real quick and then pick up the DS player, basically making the whole perk pointless. However, if the DS person is healthy or injured and you hook someone else, yeah, it should deactive.
Really in short, if you want to narrow why we feel differently about the game and our talking points, you are going to have to explain to me why a killer should win (3-4 kills) more often than tieing (2-3 kills). Because the reason I consider the game more killer sided and mostly balanced, is because on average I get 2-3 kills a game (I probably average around 3 kills a game). Which means on average I am tieing more often than losing and winning. If a game is balanced and fair, shouldn't the fact I tie, prove that? If not, why? Even using your example of killers, do you think if they didn't slug, they would get 0-1 kills on average per game, or do you think they would average 2-3 kills per game?
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@Mat_Sella said:
I dont think it needs to be easier, i think it needs to have a purpose other than bloodpoints so the other damn survivors can stop screwing me over just because they wanna reach 1 million
But if it was easier to get stacks, but provide no additional function, you would most likely get screwed over less.
My girlfriend is a WGLF gamer, its actually the reason I thought of this. She is constantly take random hits from the killer while I am being carried to get her stacks... So I still get hooked and now she is injured, so once she gets me off the hook, I have to now heal her because she took an unnecessary stack.
And honestly, its hard to blame her, because even playing like that she still usually only gets two stacks. Why should a perk that does nothing to effect the game other than provide BP be so hard to accumulate stacks. I don't want them to be given away free, that is why I said the equivalent of a generator or health state, because if you are working with someone else, you would need to do multiple generators or heal multiple people to still get those stacks.
I think adding these options would all survivors to play less "stupid" while increasing the average WGLF stacks from 1-2 to 3-4. Because as I've said, as killer I rarely ever get less than 4 stacks of BBQ and that has a secondary function in game where WGLF does nothing in game.
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@Masterkit said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1124831#Comment_1124831
he sayed that becuase this tread has no sense is already way too easy to get an stack, to get bbq stacks you need to win chases wich is way harder than just press m1 without any kind of pressure or mindgame or anythihng from the survivor you cna even get 2 if u take the hit after the unhook so you can get 50% extra blood points in one simple action i dont know how and why should get even easier than it is. i already get around 2 or 3 stacks per game without any problem just go for some unhooks thats all.
EDIT: I apologize for how combative/defensive this sounds, I do not mean it that way. I am tired after being up for over 16 hours. I am simply asking, why do people feel like it should be harder for survivors to get 3-4 stacks of WGLF, when most killers easily get 3-4 stacks of BBQ each match.
i already get around 2 or 3 stacks per game without any problem just go for some unhooks thats all.
That is my whole point of this thread, as a killer I almost always get 4 stacks of BBQ and that has a secondary function. As survivor, I usually only get 2, maybe 3 stacks of WGLF and this perk provides no other benefit other than BP.
So why do so many people have issues with adding more things that allow survivors to get stacks of WGLF when it literally has zero impact on anyone else's gameplay since it provides zero other functionality to the game other than extra BP at the end of the game.
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@korean_zombie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1124884#Comment_1124884
I don't understand usage stats, I assume that means equipped for the trial. Old Ruin effects all four survivors for a portion of the match, not the whole match unless its an atypical match.
I don't think that asking for a DS nerf is unwarranted. It shouldn't buy the unhooked survivor 1 minute of generator immunity.
Old ruin could effect four survivors from anywhere between 15 seconds to 15 minutes. At most if all four survivors ran and had the chance to use DS it would be a total of 4 minutes.
Usage stats, is how many people use a perk over every match, just one match.
It doesn't give them immunity, you have multiple choices
- Slug them for 60 seconds
- Eat the DS
- Chase someone else.
Even if you choose to slug them, that is 3 people generally not doing gens. The one slugged, The one you should be chasing, and the one picking up the DS user you slugged. The hardest thing people seem to misunderstand about the common complained about survivor perks is, they are so easy to never see. DS, slug and chase someone else, Borrowed time never proc's if you chase and down the rescuer instead of the hooked person, Unbreakabill, if they are not just off hook, instead of slugging them, just pick them up.
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@LetsPlayTogether said:
Just remove the bonus effect on BBQ and only let them get a stack for sacrificing a survivor on third hook. Thats just fair.
Why is your suggestion to nerf one perk, instead of buffing another?
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@korean_zombie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1124505#Comment_1124505
With 4 survivors per match, that is almost 2 DS per match. That is still double the number possible for Good Ruin.
So ignoring you don't understand how usage stats work, you would actually be even more wrong using your method. If you are counting how many times DS would be effective per game, which in your example is 2... Old Ruin Effect all four survivors...
So DS = 2 and Old Ruin = 4
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@I_Face_Camp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1124247#Comment_1124247
I dont care if you die on first hook and I dont think any killer would. That just helps the killer win
I'll starting sending you videos in the future than. Because we have gotten way more salt about killers losing pips because we died on first hook. Because at least if we waited until the end of the game, they could keep their rank. Because if all four survivors die on first hook, the killer depips.
In short, lots of killers have gotten salty over it.
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@Stitch7833 said:
i personally dont think WGLF is hard to get up, while id be okay with one extra option to get stacks i wouldnt want loads thatd be way to much overkill, more people play survivor atm and alot of people play killer for the easier BP. the biggest issue for survivors getting BP is the survival BP category, only healing yourself and escaping gets this up, this means youre very limited to how much this can go up, even more so with fast games or a game where you die, totems in turn should be set to survival BP instead of boldness and you should get survival BP for others healing you, this allows easy BP across all categories without the need to always escape or WGLF
I understand what your saying, and you have valid points, they do need to adjust how the survival category is calculated. However that is kinda of unrelated to the topic at hand. Yes, I will admit again, my list is clearly way to long, I was just trying to provide examples of what BHVR could reward stacks for. And you shouldn't play a role because it rewards you with more BP, you should play a role because you find it entertaining.
@th3 said:
WGLF is harder to get full stacks undoubtedly, however I don’t think making changes like you suggested would be a good idea.
Good Feedback, I enjoy how you provided ample examples to defend your point of view.
@PigNRun said:
That would make it too easy to get stacks. If you are really comparing it to BBQ, then BBQ would give you stacks for hitting Survivors, breaking pallets, doing power-related stuff, moring, etc. BBQ focuses on hooking, WGLF focuses on altruism. They go hand by hand.
I will say this again, WGLF should give you stacks for healing others as well. And thats all it really needs.
To be fair, I wouldn't want them to implement them all either, I was just listing things survivors do that I know for a fact BHVR already Tracks. If I was being realistic, I would keep WGLF the way it is but simply add the healing and generator parts. Because than at least the perk rewards you for doing your objective in similar way to killer.
As for your comparison, the killer can perform more things than the survivor can. Also it is much easier for 1 killer to hook 4 people than it is for four people to get 4 safe unhooks / protection hits. I rarely ever leave a game as killer without 4 stacks, however, most survivors I know who play the game and run the perk generally exit with 2 stacks.
If killers get to leave with 4 stacks of BBQ on average, why shouldn't survivors have the same ability to earn WGLF stacks.
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@Coder said:
So, basically you want a stack for every aspect of playing the game normally? How about a stack for every 10 metres you walk?
I want a stack of Devour Hope for each pallet I break.
WGLF is fine as it is.
WGLF literally does nothing to effect the game, other than reward the side who already receives less BP a match with more. BBQ at least provides a secondary function, as my previous post stated, I am not really a fan of a secondary function of WGLF.
To compare WGLF Stacks to Devour stacks just shows how one sided your argument and mindset is.
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@Rey_512 said:
I like the idea of having more options of obtaining stacks. A full heal or generator would be reasonable.
It also needs a secondary function like BBQ. Every time you unhook/heal a survivor you can see the killer’s aura for 4 seconds?
I understand why you are asking a secondary function, because you are making the comparison to BBQ. Though I wouldn't be opposed to it, I understand why it lacks that functionality.
BBQ was created as a way to reward killers for doing their objective and I feel as though many say it was designed to help encourage killers to not camp.
WGLF doesn't reward survivors for playing their objective. I actually tells them to leave their objective and do something else. That is why I kinda liked the idea of adding those additional ways of earning stacks that are doing your objective. However, I think giving it the same secondary ability as BBQ will make it extremely over powerful.
As a matter of fact, doesn't steve have a perk that lets you you see the killer aura when you unhook someone? As I said, I am not entirely opposed to a secondary functionality, I am just not a fan of the aura reading being the secondary functionality.
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@JackaloMoss said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1124792#Comment_1124792
It simply is true. That is the entire reason high ranked killers have almost entirely stopped playing killer. Because it is unfun and unrewarding.
Darn, I didn't realize as a rad rank killer I was having an unfun and unrewarding gaming experience. Thanks for letting me know.
These type of comments need to stop being so general, because there are a lot of highly skilled killer mains out there that have enjoyed and have been asking for the changes BHVR has made over the past few updates. Sadly, we just don't complain as loudly as those who appear to be upset about these changes.
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I've had this happen 3 times, I've DC'ed every time.
EDIT: To be clear this was before the DC penalty, but I would still most likely just eat the 5 minute timeout. It would be less annoying to deal with than 4 OoO users.
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@EvilJoshy said:
So if we apply the devs reason for destroying ruin. Since it's over 40%, DS and SC need to be "reworked" to oblivion correct? :P
Um, it was 80% at red ranks... 40% at all ranks...
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@Jallybwan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1122182#Comment_1122182
Couple questions (friendly, I'm not after a fight):
- Which killer do you play most often?
- Why do you consider a 2k to be a win?
- If I said that a killer needs to be more skilled than the survivors they go against in order to win, would you agree with me? Why or why not?
Don't worry about, I try not to start them either.
- I play the following killers: Huntress, Piggy, Spirit, Oni, Wraith, Legion and Ghostface
- Huntress: BBQ, Nurses, Iron Maiden and Corrupt
- M1tress: Enduring and Devour almost always the other two perks are a combination of Save the Best for Last, NOED, Brutal, Fire Up, Spirit Fury or Bamboozle
- Piggy: Monitor, Whispers, Enduring and Brutal (Sometimes I switch Brutal out for BP)
- Spirit: Just BBQ, I would play her perkless, she doesn't need them, but I like the bonus BP from BBQ. I often start phasing before I can even proc anyone with BBQ
- Oni: Enduring, Brutal, Infections Fright and I'm All Ears
- Wraith: Enduring, Brutal, Fire Up and Bamboozle (with swift addons)
- Legion: Enduring, I'm all ears, BBQ and Nurses
- Ghostface: Enduring, Monitor, Whispers and I'm all Ears
- Huntress: BBQ, Nurses, Iron Maiden and Corrupt
So to answer your second and third question, I am going to explain my reasoning and why I feel this way. Starting off you asked the following:
Why do you consider a 2k to be a win?
I think I can see where you misunderstood me on this as I said:
I think this game is fairly killer sided at least by my standards of a win. Probably the biggest factor that makes me feel this way is that the game should result in a 2k 2 Escape.
Which re-reading seems to imply that I think a win, is a 2k 2 Escape, when I really only consider that a Tie, however, I don't consider a Tie a loss. So I guess technically it is a win. But to be clear, I consider a 3+ kills game as a win, a 2k game as a tie and 0-1 kills a game a time.
Now onto you much more complicated question.
If I said that a killer needs to be more skilled than the survivors they go against in order to win, would you agree with me? Why or why not?
This really depends on the tactics you use during your game, for example, if you heavily rely on Tunneling, Slugging and Camping/Proxy Camping, then No, you don't have to be more skilled to win, These general tactics will on average award you between 2-3 kills at least per game. However if you do not use those tactics, I believe you do have to be a better skilled player to win more games on average.
Now, don't get me wrong, I've totally Tunneled and Camped (not sure I ever slugged for a 4k) before. However this is not my general playstyle. I would in general consider myself a fair killer. I am generally in red ranks with the builds listed above without using those type of tactics. However, it probably takes me slightly longer to get back to that rank due to the fact that I tie more games then I win or lose.
Lastly, here is my argument why you shouldn't consider a tie as a loss and consider it a win. If you are playing survivors of equal skill of you, should you win every single game? Of course not, if you are winning every single game, you are not playing survivors of equal skill are you? Should you lose every single game, of course not. You should tie more often then win or lose if you are playing against survivors of equal skill. Now keep in mind, mistakes happen on both sides, meaning a can still win and lose when playing against people of equal skill, but it should be rarer than tieing.
Now think back on that, if you are winning more often than tieing, why is that? Could it be your choice in perks? Because old Ruin + Pop really carried some killers past their skill levels. Could it be your choice in playstyle? Because slugging for a 4k or tunneling everyone off hook, will insure easy kills. Not kills earned via skill.
As a side note, I would like to point out, I rarely ever see negative comments on my steam profile (I think I've got 2) nor do I see people crap talking in End Game Chat. I even actually complain way more about killer related perks than I do survivor related perks. For example, I have zero issue with Borrowed Time, DS and Unbreakable. Since they rarely impact my games. Since I chase the rescuer, Borrowed time isn't an issue for me, Since I rarely slug, Unbreakable rarely happens (I actually love when I see an unbreakable play, like the other day, I had two survivors escape because one used tenacity to crawl out and the other used unbreakable and I freaking loved that). As for DS, my only real issue with this perk is when someone either runs at me, does a gen in front of me, or uses it in the exit gate.