kingcarl2012
kingcarl2012
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@RaccoonInATrenchCoat said:
I sure do hate second chance hand holding perks too!
Like eruption, NOED, call of brine+Overcharge, 4 slowdowns holding a three gen all game.. they should really nerf these, they make the game too easy!
Ummmm...... Did you mean 3 slowdowns or do you not know what NOED does
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@crogers271 said:
I generally would like a concession option. On survivor side if we're down to 2 and there are multiple gens left, yeah, I'm not really going to stress out. If there was a surrender option I'd take it automatically.
Or in games where as survivor we're facing a killer so above the team in level not only can we not complete a gen, we can barely get one started.
There are a couple of problems however.
As killer, you've never truly lost until the very, very end. Even if the survivors are running circles around you, you can still get one.
For survivors it is also partially true as there is always a chance that a survivor can get hatch to get a 'tie' on their part. DBD still holds to the idea (though I disagree with it), that the survivors are not teammates. So bailing out on a game with 2 survivors left gives that remaining survivor more of a chance.
I guess I'd also compare it to resignations in chess. It is considered polite to resign around the middle of the match if you've been significantly outplayed (to save everyone's time), but rude to do so at the end just to deny the inevitable.
I'm sorry but did you even read what you wrote, lol. You can't be for it on one side and against it for the other when the same reasons you say can be applied to both sides.
On survivor side if we're down to 2 and there are multiple gens left, yeah, I'm not really going to stress out. If there was a surrender option I'd take it automatically.As killer, you've never truly lost until the very, very end. Even if the survivors are running circles around you, you can still get one.When you take EGC into consideration these are basically the same situation. Except your okay with it for the survivor while you expect the killer to sit there and wait patiently until the survivors decide to let the match end.
Or in games where as survivor we're facing a killer so above the team in level not only can we not complete a gen, we can barely get one started.Take a look at my example above, this can easily happen to a killer as well.
There is also another situation that is exclusive to killer, because 1 bad survivor can be carried to victory by the rest of the team, but the killer is alone with nothing to help them if they losing.
If the survivors have the skill advantage the killer doesnt have the benefit of teammates bailing them out or a 50/50 mechanic at the end of the game, not to mention the psychological stress factor of hitting a breaking point where each screw up creates more screw ups until you break a controller, keyboard, moniter, mouse, hand, wall, etc. If anything having a concede option is more important as a killer, especially as many survivors like to draw things out as long as possible when a killer tries to give up.
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@SmolBlob said:
It’s a loophole to avoid the DC penalty while achieving the exact same end result: Giving up for an utterly stupid reason (other than hatch). If you queued up, you should be forced to play out the game. Simple as that. If that upsets you, don’t play multiplayer games. The other 4 people in the lobby deserve better than someone selfish who will instantly give up the moment the match goes south. There’s a reason the majority of multiplayer games instate DC punishments. It’s to ward off problem players like that.
- Unhook attempts are removed entirely (unless Deliverance) or penalty is changed to something other than time remaining.
- Struggle skillchecks are removed entirely or changed to only count for Bloodpoints.
- Give Up option for hatch if only 1 person or less standing. AKA, everyone else downed/dead/hooked/escaped.
- AFK players are automatically kicked and given the DC penalty as if they DC’d.
"B-B-But people will just sandbag instead!11!1!" If they are too obvious about it, they risk a ban. If they play enough to just be a typical bad player, then the goal was achieved: Forcing them to play it out instead of ragequit. And the excuse is irrelevant in the first place. If someone ragequits, the game is already ruined. Them sandbagging instead of DCing doesn’t ruin a game that wouldn’t already have been ruined.
Why should I get penalized for being left on hook at 5 gens going to 2nd stage watching one teammate get chased and 2 others self-caring in corners instead of going for the rescue. I'm sorry but when those are my teammates that game is already a loss and I have every right to let myself die on hook and not waste my time.
I get what you're going for but your idea is overly strict and @Stabby_Widdershins had the same theory on the first 2 points for sure, I will explain why the first 2 points themselves ate problematic and include a fairer way to work that system that I posted in Stabby's thread.
1. Unhook attempts are removed entirely (unless Deliverance) or penalty is changed to something other than time remaining.This doesn't work because sometimes even without deliverence you need to try and unhook yourself, and if you change the penalty there would be no reason to not always try to uhook yourself every time.
2. Struggle skillchecks are removed entirely or changed to only count for Bloodpoints.This wouldnt be a huge difference but it would take away alot of the tension of being on 2nd hook, while for some players it makes no difference because they always hit all there skill checks regardless, that doesnt apply to everyone and the mechanic is fine as is.
Thus is the response I left in Stabby's thread that Im not sure anyone saw but would be a much better solution in terms of punishing the more problematic hook suicides while allowing some of the more reasonable ones.
The simple answer is to make a hook suicide count as a dc, with the following conditions not counting as hook suicides.If you have been hooked twice. Lets you still leave if being tunneled or hook farmed.Hooked once with 60 seconds of time on hook, add an individual timer for each survivor so they can moniter and make the descision based on why they havent been unhooked in that time and makes sure your not punishing players who just get left on hook to die, or have teammates that are so incompetent the match is gonna be a loss regardless.If there are 2 or less active survivors (not downed, dead, or on hook), to make for still being able to give hatch to teammate.This would still let people do it but apply the dc penalty to them.It can still be worked around so players arent "forced to play" but I dont think requiring 2 hook states or at least 60 sec of total hook time when there are 3 players still standing is too much to ask. -
@jesterkind said:
I can't think of any game personally where you don't have any teammates and where you leaving ends the game immediately for everyone, that doesn't have some kind of penalty for leaving.
Most of the time if there isn't a penalty, it's like, a battle royale, where you leaving doesn't really affect any specific other player. In DBD, if the killer leaves, the match ends and it affects everyone.
In general, though, why is it considered such an extreme burden to finish playing a match you queued up for?
A 1v1 match of rocket league, as long as you have played 1 min 30 seconds.
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302887#Comment_3302887
...All the ones I recognise there are 1v1, though?
Clearly it's different to concede to one person as opposed to ending the match for four people. I hadn't even considered one on one games because... that's clearly a different beast entirely, different rules and expectations apply.
Even so, again, see above; why is it an unfair expectation for you to actually play out the match you queued up for?
Lets look at this from both sides,
Survivor: A survivor can yeet themselves out of the game by suiciding on hook with essentially no penalty so they already have a way to concede the match.
The next biggest complaint on the survivor side would be slugging for the 4k with slugging for the bleedout being the second. Now I am not a fan of the finisher mori system however, I do believe a concession option could be put in place for the slugging for the 4k situation at the very least, and would technically work for both.
How would it work? Very simply actually, if only one survivor is standing downed survivors can choose to concede all players are notified, the downed survivors aura is no longer shown to the survivors and is instead shown to the killer and the bleedout timer continues as normal, this allows the game to continue until it's conclusion and as an added benefit would cut down on the 2nd last survivor selling out the final survivor to try and get hatch for themself.
As for how would this work on the killer side? At any point after 3 gens have been completed the killer can go to an exit gate to concede the match, again all survivors are notified and all remaining gens are highlighted, the survivors can then finish the match normally/complete challenges. This is essentially the same as the killer giving up and standing in the corner but eliminates the survivors drawng out the game uneccesarily.
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302912#Comment_3302912
Sure, I'd buy that in StarCraft it's different, if there truly is literally no way for you to win. That's a perfectly good enough reason to have a dedicated surrender button, or even to just not have a penalty for outright quitting either, in that game. DBD, however, is not StarCraft, and a match is not actually meaningfully lost until the survivors have opened the exit gates and are standing inside one.
We've all had matches that feel like a slog halfway through but it's still good sportsmanship to play it out, because it isn't actually meaningfully lost yet. You can - and in a lot of cases will - turn it around in the endgame. The match is not over, so you leaving isn't functionally the same as letting the match play out.
I am going to disagree with you pretty hard on this statement, just because a game can technically still be won doesnt mean anything.
On the survivor side when you are losing, no matter how badly, you have the opportunity as the final survivor to escape. Between hatch and the door in the EGC there is decent RNG chance to still get an escape.
There is no such catch up mechanic for killers, as an example last night I was in a match against a sabo SWF on garden of pain, I'm sitting there with 1 hook 3 downs and 4 gens done playing a trapper with house gen and 2 opposite corner gens left. In this match I got screwed over by matchmaking, and put against survivors far outside my skill level.
Now you can say I still have a chance to win this game, which I would disagree with especially because half the time matchmaking doesnt work properly. If I have already came to the conclusion that I am going to lose and depip regardless of what I do for the rest of the match what are my options?
I dont dc from matches, unless i am done for the night, which I wasnt.
Playing out the match isnt really an option, as I value my sanity, and want to be able to actually keep playing.
So my only other option is to AFK to the end of the match, i the hopes it ends as quickly as possible.
So I take off my headset set up in a corner by the gate and throw a video on my phone, I was stuck in that match for 15 min with my headphones exploding, and the shine of flashlights on the wall I was facing before they even finished the last gen, then after another couple minutes I opened the gate and went back to my corner they proceeded to draw out as much of the endgame as possible, including one of them downing themself with a trap just to extend the EGC timer. In this situation there is definitely bad sportsmanship but I would argue its not on the killer side.
In my example of how conceding would work, instead of being held in a match for over 20 min, I could have conceded and moved on, and the survivors could have still finished the gens and moved on, instead of spending 20 minutes taunting my AFK husk.
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@Steakdabait said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302090#Comment_3302090
devs stated that dc/suiciding means the match isn't counted.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302092#Comment_3302092
in matches where survivors get hatch the match is counted as if that survivor didn't exist.
They stated dc's dont count they never said anything about first hook suicides
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The simple answer is to make a hook suicide count as a dc , with the following conditions not counting as hook suicides.
If you have been hooked twice. Lets you still leave if being tunneled or hook farmed.
Hooked once with 60 seconds of time on hook, add an individual timer for each survivor so they can moniter and make the descision based on why they havent been unhooked in that time and makes sure your not punishing players who just get left on hook to die.
If there are 2 or less active survivors (not downed, dead, or on hook), to make for still being able to give hatch to teammate.
This would still let people do it but apply the dc penalty to them.
It can still be worked around so players arent "forced to play" but I dont think requiring 2 hook states or at least 60 sec of total hook time when there are 3 players still standing is too much to ask.
A big part of the tunnelling problem as well is having to rush the hook immediately and unhook before the killer leaves, just so they dont kill themselves on hook.
I have also had mnay times where someone hook suicides on first hook and 5 seconds after they do we pop 2 or 3 gens, having the 60 second requirment might make some people change their mind.
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@VaporLion said:
So we havent heard anything about the permanent unbreakable change anymore that was announced so im guessing it is considered too strong for survivors. Well i wanted to suggest to just make the Perk Unbreakable permanently useable.
Killers could remember who used it and then know who cant be let on the ground which leads to skill-based decision-making & survivors have a choice to not be slugged all the time.
The thing im most sick of atm is getting sluged for 4 kills which happens almost every game and i dont want to feel like im worthless. The game gives me that feeling in that situation because i cant do anything besides slowly dieing or dcing. Those are things that make people quit the game for good.
You could just run unbreakable or the boon that gives unbreakable
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@Ivalyth said:
In last night's livestream, I ended up playing in the Saloon as the Clown (I apologize for any swear words in the video beforehand). I have noticed that wiggle perks such as Boil Over have an enormously strong effect. Granted, there was a map offering and an oak offering in play too, but I strongly believe that there was little to no effort in making those two offerings really matter. I think sabotages only came in to play once or twice, where most of the time, retreating to that one room meant a safe zone for the survivors. I am in no way complaining about save builds, as they require a bit of setup and they can backfire majorly, I am simply puzzled at how to counter this kind of play on this particular map.
Is there a way to counter this sort of behavior? Not even my speed bottles helped me, so it must be even worse for other killers. Should a hook be added there in this specific map because of how perks have recently been reworked? I'd love to know what you think, as I may have just been playing poorly. It's happened before! I am posting this here instead of bug reports because I genuinely don't know if it's an oversight, but still I'd love to help improve future players' experience.
Below is my gameplay. Again, sorry if I'm not wholesome all the way through!
Alot of times you just have to identify it and get them before they get there or just leave them slugged or ignore them if you cant get them before they go into building.
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@Sanna said:
Yeah, the disconnects for both survivors and killers have been a huge problem lately and it's always the most frustrating/infuriating feeling whenever we lose pips because of it. Not sure if it's a game issue or what, but I've had some games where I was forcibly disconnected and at the end screen the killer and I both had DC symbols and I couldn't spectate or even type in the chat box.
I'm really advocating for just doing away with the pip system entirely (or at least removing depips) though, especially since grades are supposed to just measure time played now.
The problem with that, is depips are the only punishment for people who disconnect or suicide on hook.
With no depips everyone could just suicide on first hook every match with no penalty, and at a certain point killers would just say screw this match and afk till its done because they werent gonna pip anyways.
It may not work and apply to everyone, but staying in a game to try for the safety pip at minimum is a real thing, and while it would help you not depip, it would lead to even more issues with DC, hook suicide, and afk killers halfway through a game.
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The thing for me is I have kind of a sliding scale based on gens left vs hook states achieved.
As an example if I have lost 3 gens and dont have 6 hookstates and gens are spread out and going to hard to defend based on my build/killer played, this is gonna trigger me tunnelling someone out to catch up in the game because If I dont I will guarenteed lose.
Another example is in a game where the matchmaking screws me over and puts me against even 2 much stronger survivors out of 4 that I have trouble catching because they are too good for me to get in a regular chase, I will target the weaker players to set up a trap so I can try and catch the stronger ones at a disadvantage. When the unhooked survivor then body blocks with BT messing up my plan, I have to down them again and reset my trap so I can get the stronger survivors.
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@Sanna said:
I don't think they really have a place anymore and I feel like the overall DBD experience would be a lot more relaxed and potentially less sweaty/stressful/frustrating if de-pips got removed or reworked. It might maybe make people a little less toxic too?
Removing de-pips would benefit both sides, especially when dc's and hook suicides are a thing. People who dc could still get a negative pip, but if the survivor/killer actually tries, the negative pips should be removed entirely. There are so many factors out of your control, pipping is usually just a matter of luck/time played anyway.
So my question is: will de-pips ever be removed? It's been a while now since ranks were changed to grades, but de-pips are still around. I'm hoping it can be changed sometime soon, because I'm tired of de-pipping to unfair things that are not my fault at all (in the case of both survivors and killers, namely when there are dc's and hook suicides, but it is much more difficult to pip as a solo queue survivor in my opinion).
@xfireturtlex said:
They probably wont get rid of em, but they should. Depips dont serve a purpose anymore, but they definitely punish players that get a string of bad luck. I've lost an entire grades worth of pips many times because some turd burglars wanted to dc or give up on first hooks. Theres times it makes me not even wanna play.
I don't think they should get rid of de-pips however I do think they should lower the safety pip conditions a bit at iri/gold rank (Use the current Bronze safety for bronze/silver, and current silver for iri/gold).
As well as have a blanket safety pip when someone dc's or dies in the first few minutes of the match. The person who dies can get it if they have been hooked twice (tunnelled out) and can't if their total time on hook is less than 80 seconds and have only been hooked once (People who hook suicide wont get it but people who get abandoned on hook by teammates will), was gonna say 100 sec but had to account for monstrous shrine.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Something you left out or may not have known, it's alway's possible for the offering's to have no effect on the hatch's location, which is odd since i think the effect rate is 100%.
This has made me curious however, i've never seen both played in the same match, would be interesting seeing the outcome's.
Edit: Also speaking of bloodweb filler's, your not going to bring up the basement location offering's? I havn't seen one of these in play since they where added.
I sometimes use them as killer, for no real reason. The only time I really see survivors use them are Swf usually shack basement on badham with lots of flip flop boil over no mither builds in the school basement.
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@Grindixer said:
I have two main reasons why. This will be a little bit nitpicky and killer sided but that's fine.
1). Giving one side the ability to know a game winning aspect of finding the hatch is not great addon design. Especially an aspect that is intended to be complete RNG. I've lost numerous kills/escapes because my opponent knew where the hatch was and I forgot the addon was in play. I think for this sort of increased chance of survival you must brings perks like Left Behind, etc.
2). It's an annoying filler in both killer and survivor bloodwebs. Extremely common due to being a brown, it steals the slots of important/ impactful items and addons being quite an annoyance. The basement addons aren't much better but aren't nearly as impactful as the hatch offerings (the occasional basement build is pretty negligible).
I think these offerings should just be removed altogether. With the key nerf so long ago these aren't even useful and more of an annoyance that clog our bloodwebs and steal useful items from us. Would love to see thoughts or offering reworks.
While I agree they shouldnt be in the killer bloodweb because they are clutter, and I dont think survivors should have basement offerings at all either.
Hatch offerings are balanced as everyone can see them and plan around them. They are good when you have a hatch escape challenge, and a hatch escape in a losing game is worth more BP than you would get from any other brown BP offering.
For me personally it was a major factor in being able to get the finish last gen and escape, when I got the left for dead achievement, and still has use for the other hatch achievements as well.
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@LibidinousPsyche said:
Okay so I'm new to this game, but I just encounter a no win situation. The hag can basically mark the ground in several spots to camp gens right, so if you are down to two generators and they mark the spot of both gens, you basically are stuck especially if the killer trails both gens close together. Now, it was left to just me, and trying to run to a gen spawn those creeps run away then come back to the generator after they go away the killer has already came camped remarked and waiting. How do you over come this? I think the hag should only be able to mark one spot, because I searched the whole map and I could only find 2 generators left, both had the spawns of the creep things. If that's not the case put more gens in the map.
The Hag has 10 traps available to her.
There are 7 total generators on every map, so unless you have completed all 5 there were at least 3 available.
If you move while crouching you can avoid her traps, you can also destroy them with a flashlight, you can also run through them to set them off whil sh is carrying a teammate and she cant teleport while carrying someone.
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@ChurchofPig said:
Why does this achievement even exist? I decided "I've been losing a lot of games as Myers recently trying to meme around with Scratched Mirror, so maybe I'll be able to get Evil Incarnate?" I thought, maybe... yeah no. I'm not having many issues with getting to Tier 3, but survivors still just like "Oh someone died, better jump in a locker or snowman to protect myself." Which is the dumbest thing on the planet. Why can't it just act like a normal mori in those cases? Probably because the add-on would actually be broken with any other add-on. I also really hate it when survivors are like "Well I'm making you work for the achievement." YOU MAKE IT HARD ENOUGH GETTING THE TIER 3 YOU ARE NOT JUMPING IN A LOCKER TO MAKE ME "WORK" FOR THE ACHIEVEMENT. Seriously, does anyone who's done this achievement actually believe survivors are making you "work for the achievement" when they jump in lockers? No, they know what you're doing and want to be an a-hole about it. Why can't the achievement just be "4k in one cycle of Evil Within 3" or something like that. That way the moment someone decides to start locker jumping it won't effect your achievement, they can locker jump all they want, I'm still getting my achievement. Or let bleed outs count if you were in Evil Within 3 at the time they went down.
I'm going to apologize now so if this sounds harsh Im sorry.
I will start by saying I have been an achievement hunter for years going back to the original xbox 360 which pioneered the in game achievements. The thing every person going for achievements has to learn is there are going to be achievememts that you are not going to get, whether because they are too grindy or too difficult, especially when it comes to online games.
Some achievements are participation trophies, this game has lots of those. Some achievements are just a huge grind, like 500 shocks or 1000 hatchets. Some are just plain hard, like evil Incarnate and left behind, and sometimes you either have to cheese it or get lucky, in this case that means MMR tanking with myers, much like many players had to do for killer adepts in the old rank system.
Now if the issue is more with lockers countering tombstone Myers I have thought about and think there is a world where having a locker mori could be balanced but it would have several conditions. Having bleedouts count definitely shouldnt be an option, but if you bring an ebony mori offering as well, I think those mori's could count. These would be pretty fair conditions to put on the locker Mori.
Prior to EGC locker mori would only be activatable on survivors who are already on death hook just like a Mori offering. Forces Myers to hook survivors throughout the match to unlock they ability
The final survivor can only be locker mori'd after hatch is closed and EGC has begun. This would reduce the 45 min standoff at the locker and force both players to actually finish the game. If the killer closes hatch and can catch the survivor before they open the door they can no longer get countered by a locker and can fake finding hatch to try to draw out the survivor if they try to get into door position early.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300232#Comment_3300232
First we want to apologize as we did forget about your idea (lost in the sea of words)
Second we feel the haste probably should have a flat rate that's relatively low. While it would incentivize going away, it would also make snowballing alot easier for the killers that don't need it (would be awesome to ZOOM as blight with that though).
The show aura would effectively be base kit floods on every hook and we feel it would be Abit much. But that's our opinion so it's whatever.
The Haste effect is only for the unhooked survivor because even though nobody uses it guardian gives an extra 8% and 4.7 m/s is pretty solid especially when you also consider the speed boost from tanking the endurance hit.
The show aura would effectively be base kit floods on every hook and we feel it would be Abit much. But that's our opinion so it's whatever.Keep in mind the unhooked survivor is getting Basekit BT, Guardian, mini OTR, mini distortion, mini Quick and quiet
You may be right about the power level, but that may also have to do with thinking the haste applied to the killer, but in terms of a carrot you need something and I think buffing anything other than info would be more imbalanced and not really fit the concept of chasing someone other than the unhooked person.
The 3 best options I could think of were
Basekit BBQ, and change the perk to double duration. The Issue I see here is getting the info at the time of hooking is a double edged sword especially when playing a slower killer because the info at that point may lead to the killer leaving for a chase or may lead to a camp if everyone is far away, or more proxy camping with survivors in close range/running distortion. Plus it does nothing if the killer is at the hook when the unhook happens, which is when tunneling happens
The only difference in the other two options was with aura reading vs Killer Instict after the unhook. You could flip it so the killer gets killer instinct on everone, and aura reading on the unhooker, but since killer instict only gives direction with no sense of distance, it really limits the options of using the information. With the aura reading the killer may even use that info to pressure a gen instead of chasing either person at the hook.
You could also make it only apply to the Unhooker but I felt that might just lead to more camping because the only info you get is useful if you stay near the hook.
I felt that the option of aura read on all but the unhooked gave the killer a decent chunk of info that can be used in several ways that arent tunneling, and the killer instinct on the unhooker gives a baseline of info that cant be countered if a whole team is running distortion and they get nothing on the aura reading.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300068#Comment_3300068
We get that and something does need to address that (hopefully without being abused)
What I think we were trying to say is that there needs to also be a "carrot" (second me wants a "stick") for survivors to not put each other in these kinds of situations.
@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300065#Comment_3300065
I think most reasonable people will understand a killer having little option when someone unhooks in their TR then stealths away to leave the poor sod who just got unhooked to their fate.
But of course what we are seeing becoming very common is killers who will stay by the hook and go out of their way to target the person who just got off hook, even if there is an injured and viable target in the person who unhooked.
All that aside, I certainly don't want to see any solution that can be abused or used offensively as DS from 2 reworks back was
This was my suggestion with one small edit added that is lost in the early part of the thread.
A much more fair and balanced way to try and reduce tunnelling is to simply add more defensiveness to the basekit borrowed time.First off double the haste to 20% that gives you 0.2 m/s faster than a 4.6 killer that can be used to loop/get away.(Edit: After some further thought on this, the haste effect should scale with the number of gens left in the match.)5 gens 20% 4.8 m/s
4 gens 18% 4.72 m/s
3 gens 16% 4.67 m/s
2 gens 14% 4.57 m/s
1 gen 12% 4.48 m/s
0 gens 10% 4.4 m/s
This change gears it more towards tunneling in the early game.
Second for those 10 seconds, block aura reading of unhooked survivor, no blood or scratch marks, quick and quiet with no cooldown, 100% reduction in pain sounds and breathing. This litany of defensive boosts eliminates all but visual tracking of the unhooked survivors giving tons of options for breaking line of sight and losing the killer.Third and finally the killer gains killer instinct on the unhooking survivor and have all but the unhooked survivors aura shown for 5 seconds, incentivizing the unhooker and any other survivor as a target especially with the difficulty of tracking the unhooked survivor.I think this fits both the carrot and stick idea and wouldnt really be abuseable offensively in any real way like DS was.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299767#Comment_3299767
Okay your the one latching onto all these different conditions while I am trying to boil it down to its simplest form.
That's the point. If you require this many conditions to set up the scenario you describe, it's not 'boiled down to its simplest form'.
This in contrast with 'Person who was unhooked in the last 60 seconds bodyblocks the killer', which is all that is required to use OTR offensively.
There were still plenty of complaints being made about Ds specifically because the conspicuous action change did nothing to any of the situations I outlined above.
No, there weren't. I was around during that time and a frequenter of the forums. Nobody complained about getting duplicate survivors mixed up and getting hit with DS as a result. The only complaint DS got was that it was unfair when applied during the dash for the exit, as it felt like a free escape and a denial of the killer's only option.
Those situations got even more common, because working on a gen would deactivate DS it was more commonly used to harass the killer so the 2 survivors not there could work on gens.
No, it wasn't. Because it's an incredibly ineffective strategy that wastes as much of the survivors' time, or more.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299851#Comment_3299851
Why am I not surprised to see the 'I am bad, therefor it's okay for me to tunnel' argument coming from you?
It depends, because sometimes you are only bad at the game because the survivors it throws at you are usually outside your skill level, scummy tactics are all you have to keep up.
Did you perhaps consider that you are messing up your MMR rating by getting kills you aren't supposed to get by using blatantly overpowered tactics as crutches?
"Did you perhaps consider that you are messing up your MMR rating by getting kills you aren't supposed to get by using blatantly overpowered tactics as crutches?"No, because when there is a large enough deficiency on either side it throws MMR out the window in favor of making matches happen which is often when playing killer fits my availability.
I know this because there is a major difference in matchmaking depending on when I play. I can play from 7pm to around 11pm my local time and I will have mostly fine matchmaking with no issues but later at night when the killer pool is smaller and there are more SWF running around, I rarely get properly matched to my skill. This is further evidenced in the fact that I can play a killer that I know has low MMR and get super strong opponents and then switch to a killer that I have higher MMR with and still get easier opponents.
Also killer strength and build arent factored into matchmaking, and since I Alternate killers from match to match (Excluding Nurse and Trickster because they are borderline Unplayable) , and half of my killers have no addons from prestiging them before the update to get more perks on my Killers, and I typically run builds I like instead of running 4 slowdown/regression perks every game because I find that boring, and I can only dodge a few lobbies before I get bored and just take a match I know is outside my MMR.
"No, there weren't. I was around during that time and a frequenter of the forums. Nobody complained about getting duplicate survivors mixed up and getting hit with DS as a result. The only complaint DS got was that it was unfair when applied during the dash for the exit, as it felt like a free escape and a denial of the killer's only option."Well thats a funny statement, proven almost completely wrong with a 5 min search of the forums between the conspicuous action change and 6.1 patch,. There are hundreds of posts of back and forth, survivors complaining about ds being too weak and not running it and more tunneling in matches with no Obsession, Killer complaints about exactly the kind of situations I describe in my post with bodyblocking and flashlight/pallet save immunity, locker ds, and yes ds in endgame which you pointed out and I didn't dispute
"This in contrast with 'Person who was unhooked in the last 60 seconds bodyblocks the killer', which is all that is required to use OTR offensively."You keep bringing up OTR for no reason and it is completely irrelevant to the actual point of the conversation which is your suggestion of basekit DS. OTR isnt and has never been an issue as far as I'm concerned which I've stated multiple times.
No, it wasn't. Because it's an incredibly ineffective strategy that wastes as much of the survivors' time, or more.It actually isnt, killers gain much less pressure from a Slug with DS than from a hook state, and thats not even counting if they also have unbreakable lowering the pressure even more. If survivors are able to deny 3 hook attempts Instead of having 2-3 survivors on death hook they maybe have 1 if they are lucky, but more than likely none and the chances of the killer winning that match drops significantly, especially because they can rotate and have 2 people pretty much always on gens.
"That's the point. If you require this many conditions to set up the scenario you describe, it's not 'boiled down to its simplest form'."Frankly since all you wanna do is cherry pick one statement and ignore the fact that I wrote up a whole section actually boiling it down to its simplest form, where I specifically put forth basic conditions to keep it seperate from other posts, on how DS can be used offensively in a multitude of ways that still work to this day and how much that can cost the killer, honestly I'm done with you.
I have acknowledged that your superior ability to play the game means you have a differerent experience than my low level skill set allows me to have, and as condescending as you are being, you cant invalidate my experience and that of others who have posted similar complaints in other discussions just because your better than me at a video game. Adieu et bonne nuit.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299538#Comment_3299538
Because you are playing a game with others and everyone is entitled to play the game and have a good experience.
Just being bad at the game is no excuse to deny someone the ability to even play the game by constantly tunnelling them off hook and that should be punished harshly. Being bad at the game is no excuse for tunnelling off hook
It depends, because sometimes you are only bad at the game because the survivors it throws at you are usually outside your skill level, scummy tactics are all you have to keep up. As an example right now for me the incentve is on 100% killer bonus and when i queue up I will probably have 8 of 10 games against survivors at a much higher skill level than me and if I get 3 or 4 sweaty matches in a row it can be hard to switch gears when I get a lower/even skilled team.
That isnt the case for everyone all the time obviously, but I know for me when matchmaking screws me over I have to do everything in my power to re-even the odds to make it a fair match.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299386#Comment_3299386
The thing that you are calling a one in a million scenario, of losing the survivors after a hit and having to chose between two sets of scratch marks, that may be the case for you with your perfect tracking ability, I would say actually happens in about 1 in 5-10 matches.
You're not talking about losing a survivor, you're talking about losing a survivor, and another survivor with the exact same cosmetic set-up happening to be in that survivor's extraction route without you being able to see the survivor you were originally chasing, while the second survivor was pulled off the hook in the last 60 seconds and didn't do anything to progress the survivors' side of the game, and they're also on the same health state as the person you were chasing, and they have DS, and UB, and they haven't used the latter yet.
You are conjuring the most contrived scenario to try and proclaim DS to be a problem, ignoring that this is hard to pull off, not particularly rewarding for the survivors, and can easily go very, very wrong for them.
Same situation but instead of the goalie making the save you get it past them, you get the goal, you celebrate, you won the game (chase), and the ref blows the whistle and goal doesnt count. This is DS you got the goal and it gets taken away from you.
What you are missing is that the ref explicitly told you, five times, to wait for his signal before you can take the shot, and you took the shot immediately after he was done warning you. If you get upset that that goal gets disqualified, that's on you.
There is a huge difference in how each situation is gonna affect you psychologically. There is a reason why you can go back for years of posts in the forum pre 6.1 where DS is complained about all the time, and yet very few post 6.1 complaining about OTR.
Yeah, because for years, DS did not deactivate for conspic actions. Original DS didn't even require you to be unhooked. The DS that existed immediately before 6.1 had ONE complaint about it, which was that it felt unfair during EGC. And that was clipped off with 6.1.
It has nothing to do with any kind of 'psychological impact' of DS.
Okay your the one latching onto all these different conditions while I am trying to boil it down to its simplest form.
So one last time there are 2 ada's (I am using Ada because cosmetic options are limited and I tend to see alot of them in the basic outfit) in the match one on hook the other one is going for the unhook you hit them and they unhook both are injured and you cant tell which is which. This can also happen with 2 completely different survivors and a flashlight/flashbang blind so you cant see anything until after the unhook and can even still work if you look away to avoid the blind and the hook was in a tile that blocks line of sight.
So you are left with 2 sets of scratch marks heading in different directions and cant see the survivors so there is a 50/50 chance the scratch marks you choose to follow are the unhooker. My solution kicks in right here making it so there is only 1 set of scratch marks to follow and highlighting the unhooker meaning you chase the unhooker or hunt blindly and deafly for the person off the hook. This makes tunneling a concious decision that the killer is making and even if they see the survivor and decide to chase them, for 10 seconds they are faster than the killer and the killer loses even more time and ground. Plus it works even against most strong killers that can make up the ground because if they lose line of sight there is nothing to track and the survivor can still bring DS as a punishment for when the killer CHOOSES to tunnel.
Now back to without my suggestion and your basekit DS so we know 100% they have DS. There are essentially 4 different outcomes from the unhook, 2 if you know who's who, and 2 if you only have scratch marks to go off of and other factors that make it hard to tell them apart.
So lets start with the most basic one, Killer goes directly after the unhooked survivor intentionally gets the down eats the DS gets the down again and the hook and probably loses 2-3 gens for 1 hook state, I dont think anyone would disagree that this is fine there is no issue here this a textbook Ds being used for anti tunnel purposes.
There are 2 outcomes where you chase the unhooker either by choice or happenstance, depending on whether the survivor has DS. If they dont have DS they will go to heal or gen and getting your down and hook can actually occur while potentially losing 0-1 gens. If the survivor has DS 100% of the time they will more than likely follow the chase and after you down and pickup the unhooker they will interfere with you trying to get the hook sometimes not making a difference other times costing you the hook. If they cost you the hook you may slug them and still get the unhookerand get extra pressure or the unhooker may be gone you lose 2 gens and get 0 hook states or try to wait out the DS timer/eat the DS and get 1 hook state while they get progress towards the next set of gens. In this situation the killer is being punished even though they were actually avoiding tunneling.
The final outcome is you end up on the trail of the unhooked survivor by accident. Chase get the down slug them and probably lose 2- 3 gens and get 0 hook states or 1 if you eat the DS and carry through the hook regardless. In this situation your technically tunneling, even though that wasn't the Intent and get punished regardless.
Gen numbers stated are based on getting first hook before any gens are completed.
As to the penalty shot analogy that obviously missed its mark because if you touched the puck before the ref signalled with his whistle you would get stopped long before you skated down the ice to a postion where you would be shooting the puck. To be more specific with that analogy i was thinking more like you shoot the puck into the net and it hits a bar in the net whch is a goal, but the ref thinks it hit one of the outer bars and calls it not a goal, and Instant replay obviously not being available.
There were still plenty of complaints being made about Ds specifically because the conspicuous action change did nothing to any of the situations I outlined above. Those situations got even more common, because working on a gen would deactivate DS it was more commonly used to harass the killer so the 2 survivors not there could work on gens.
Again you are obviously a much better killer than me because these things werent an issue for you, but DS was the main reason I quit playing killer before Nemesis came out until just before the prestige update came out, and that was just to get as many bloodpoints as possible, and then only really started playing killer again after the perk rework.
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@InvadeGames said:
Of course stuff like this is anecdotal and 90% of this forum disagrees but im very confident in my position.
For example I was playing a match just now on dead dawg saloon(as doctor) with distressing, huntress lullaby, unnerving presence, and overcharge so a very oppressive skill check based build particularly on smaller maps. I figured this would be a very solid game as I can pull this off real well on larger maps usually by being able to slow the game down immensely by the time you hit 2 gens left.
SO i spawn by saloon and do my normal routine on this map by immediately taking down the troublesome doors on saloon and shack as those are guaranteed loop spots for later.
I then head for a gen and find Mikaela by the 2 story building on the side of the map(not the saloon) i chase her around the building 2x with her running up the stairs and off the ledge before i decide this is loop is too strong too waste time on. I switch off to a feng nearby. I have a pretty easy chase and down, getting her within 20-30 seconds. i hook her. the 4th gen pops on the first hook. Extremely surprised as I(no exaggeration) had been in this match for 3 MAYBE 4 minutes and have had far worse starts than this. of course i get frustrated right away but decided id just see if i can pull of some major underdog win(i consider 2k and above a win for myself)
immediately after the hook i spot a david running 20 feet away and i run to hit him then double back for hook as i spotted a Mikaela in the area as well and knew david was taking me away from hook so they could get save. as im going back to hook(from like 50 feet away) 5th gen pops and unhook happens. I now have 1 hook in 4 mins of gameplay and all gens are done. clearly if i want to get anything done i have one obvious target, the injured feng right in front of me, i eat her dead hard, down her and hook her for hook number 2 for the 4 minutes match. exit gate has now been opened. So now im just like whatever and let them save and exit the game.
So at MOST 5 minutes elapsed.
Then post game chat feng blames me for "tunneling" and saying thats why i lost the game.
Ok No, absolutely not. 4 gens were done by hook 1 and by the time you were unhooked all 5 were done. I didnt "ignore everyone else to get you out the game as quickly as possible" and you consisted a mere 50% of the hits in the game that lasted 5 minutes. What do you have expected me to do at that point? not gone for the only play I had?
And while this is just ONE game, its similar to how survivors act in so many other matches and what ive seen in videos of other matches. you were last one hooked, 30 seconds later run into the path of the killer and then get mad that he doesnt ignore you to go find some other person.
It does not make sense these asinine expectations that are placed upon people and then get shamed for things that dont even happen.
I play in NA servers so me experience is only for matches in NA so perhaps demographics are different elsewhere but from my experience of many, many matches as survivors, camping and tunneling are NEARLY nonexistent. they happen so rarely its a non issue. and from having experience playing both roles i can tell when im being "tunneled or camped" or if its because I or my team mate played in such a way that provided a rational opportunity to arise in which you take out the survivor in front of you. Especially when you risk a match being over before you even have a chance to actually PLAY the match.
Now i will concede that most of my matches arent that ridiculously short so is a bit on the extreme side and i am not one who thinks gen slowdown builds are required(i dont use more than 1-2 in builds if any) but survs, check your entitlement and stop complaining about things that dont happen. thanks.
You may now proceed to shame me for not believing your complaints.
I agree completely.
One of my favorites that happened to me a while back was, i got my first hook (Meg) as 2 gens popped, also on dead dawg (survivor offering, I am Demogorgon, Jolt, STBFL, Mad grit, Lethal pursuer, add ons were shred hit cooldown, and increased portal detection radius), the windmill corner and the across the street from saloon corner popped and my down was at the back corner gen behind gallows with remaining gens being Saloon, Gallows, back corner, beside 2 story house at shack, and mid map across street from shack in between the 2 completed gens. I have active portal behind wall by saloon gen, and in side room at top of stairs.
I hook on street by Gallows, and check back corner kick gen about 50% and pallet and set a portal, start moving to 2 story and see no progress set portal around corner from gen, and bang unhook happens, I get just around the gallows to see steve healing Meg under the hook. I can see both saloon and gallows have 0 progress, so I know that the other 2 are gonna finish the Mid back gen soon, leaving me with a nice tidy 4 gen
Steve waves at me and runs for saloon, I had only broken the one wall at the window on the backside upstairs, so still a very strong area, and Meg runs back into the corner gen that I kicked so I set portal under gallows and the 3rd gen pops. I portal to the back corner and I down meg again go back and kick the gen again then steve is back trying to heal meg, so I give steve a smack, and hook meg on the same hook again.
Gallows still had no progress, back corner still regressing, saloon little to no progress and no one on gen, steve by saloon again, I fake going to pressure the gen by the house and steve takes a dead hard hit at the hook pops reassurance and takes off straight to saloon again. Based on his play I assumed (and was correct) he was running flip flop/boil over, and just managed to shred him before he got there, I go to hook Steve at Main street and broadway and both Nancy (Obsession) and claudette are body blocking the hook which with mad grit I love. So I take my not quite free hit on Nancy and she takes off toward Meg for the unhook, and then I take my free hit on claudette and she runs to saloon, hook Steve and then start walking to gallows hook charging shred and get killer instinct on nancy and meg healing in back corner and claudette just inside saloon under my portal, i keep going as claudette comes out and just as she is going for the unhook spin and hit her with my shred downing her.
At this point I am feeling good about the match so instead of slugging her I pick her up and hook her on the hook by gallows, Meg and Nancy are both healed up, so I check my killer instinct and my back corner gen portal is being cleansed, So I go over there and who do I find but Meg cleansing my portal while Nancy goes for the unhooks, long story short Nancy unhooks steve, I down and hook Meg in between back corner and house killing her, sacrifice the saloon gen and kill claudette at gallows and Nancy at main street betweeen saloon and shack , slam hatch by shack (another offering), and get the 4k on steve trying to open the door.
After the match I check the several angry messages I received from Meg calling me a dirty tunneller and a bunch of other things I wont repeat. I gave them a calm response explaining why they got tunnelled off first hook which I admit I kinda did but probably wouldnt have if they had gone any other direction on the map and explained their error to them and defended that I certainly didnt tunnel them off second hook, to which I was told a number of terrible things including to unalive myself. So I blocked and reported them to Microsoft and went on with my day.
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299316#Comment_3299316
The survivor can choose to exit the locker and be killed at any time.
Myers can pull the survivor out of the locker at any time and put them on a hook or take a chance letting them wiggle off.
Neither side is held hostage. It is a standoff.
BHVR never considered old hatch standoffs a hostage situation back in the day either.
Yes that was my original point in a post way back in this thread, I said its either Both or neither, and am now just pointing out this persons hypocrisy to them, for fun.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299091#Comment_3299091
Your example is inherently flawed in the sense that once again you arent taking into account that not everyone has perfect tracking, if after the hit all I can see are scratch marks going in 2 different directions and dont know which is which I have a 50% chance of chasing the right one.
You do realise you keep stacking more and more conditions onto this scenario, right? We're talking about a one-in-a-million type of scenario where all the stars align for a risky strategy that, if it doesn't pay off, practically guarantees the killer wins.
If i end up chasing the unhooker the person who tanked the hit will have to mend losing several seconds of potential progress and I dont actually lose anything because I am pressuring the other survivor towards getting a down, so in that situation I am actually gaining however many seconds of slowdown from the mend timer
Except you also lose time because you go into the on-hit cooldown while the survivor you are chasing makes distance, possibly reaching a new loop. Mending is quicker than recovering from Dying, and they can't recover from dying at all unless they use up another perk slot. DS punishes misuse significantly harder than OTR does.
If i end up chasing the bodyblocker, and get that down and then get hit with DS, I get punished and lose time, but i have no choice but to follow through because I have already commited time into that down and since I dont know where anyone is I have no real option but to continue on that person and because now I'm pissed off, because I really wasnt trying to tunnel, but got punished for it anyways, I am going to camp/tunnel that person to death.
Yes, this is the current situation, and why OTR is not fine. It works against non-tunnelling killers, unlike DS.
The thing that you are calling a one in a million scenario, of losing the survivors after a hit and having to chose between two sets of scratch marks, that may be the case for you with your perfect tracking ability, I would say actually happens in about 1 in 5-10 matches.
DS and OTR both work against non tunnelling killers the only difference is when they work, which is a major difference. There is a major psychological difference in effect based on that principal, I am gonna use hockey as a reference, but I can probably convert it to any sport if thats not your thing.
The Game is tied In overtime and you get a penalty shot, you go in you deke the goalie, you think you have him beat and take the shot, but the goalie makes a crazy move and manages to make the save. This is OTR you didnt get the goal (the down) the game goes on.
Same situation but instead of the goalie making the save you get it past them, you get the goal, you celebrate, you won the game (chase), and the ref blows the whistle and goal doesnt count. This is DS you got the goal and it gets taken away from you.
There is a huge difference in how each situation is gonna affect you psychologically. There is a reason why you can go back for years of posts in the forum pre 6.1 where DS is complained about all the time, and yet very few post 6.1 complaining about OTR.
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@Mat_Sella said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298565#Comment_3298565
1000% incorrect
the survivor has a chance to escape via grab, the survivor has no chance of escape in a chase setting against a killer that instantly mori's them.
The survivor is surviving
the killer is not killing.
1000% incorrect
The survivor has a chance to escape via grab, the survivor will 1000% die in the locker.
The killer is killling.
The survivor not escaping.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298854#Comment_3298854
Let's lay out the situation here:
Two survivors are perfectly coordinating so that both are in the same chase. This is inherently a waste of time for survivors. One of the two must have been unhooked in the last 60 seconds and has not done anything to progress the game. Both carry the same cosmetic loadout and they find some way to trade off where you lose track of which is which. You slug the one with DS, but they use Unbreakable to get up again.
That's two perks, very stringent coordination, and a TON of time wasted for the survivors.
Let's compare this to what is currently possible if we compare apples to apples and give any random survivor OTR and DS. Because now the person with OTR can just aggressively dive in front of you and when you smack them out of the way, you're left with two options: Either you change target to them, or you keep on the original target.
If you keep on the original target, the bodyblocker just has to mend for a bit and they're free to do whatever they want. They don't need any assistance from another survivor and are back on a gen with you having wasted a good bit of extra time.
If you switch targets, you can down them, pick them up, and then get hit with DS so you waste even more time.
So OTR, which already has a track record of being used offensively, is fine, but DS, which cannot be used offensively if the killer doesn't pick the target up because then the time cost ends up on the survivors' side, is a problem. You have to pull out a miracle scenario to make the perk actually function against someone who isn't tunnelling, but OTR, where every jack, joe and jill can just throw themselves at a killer, no consequence, is 'fine'.
But in the situation where the unhook happens right in front of me and the person off hook tanks a hit with BT unless they have time to mend which I am not going to give them if they are the survivor I end up chasing then the only way OTR even comes into play is if they use DS to reset their mend which with the current ds isnt often an issue because most people dont run it.
Your example is inherently flawed in the sense that once again you arent taking into account that not everyone has perfect tracking, if after the hit all I can see are scratch marks going in 2 different directions and dont know which is which I have a 50% chance of chasing the right one.
If i end up chasing the unhooker the person who tanked the hit will have to mend losing several seconds of potential progress and I dont actually lose anything because I am pressuring the other survivor towards getting a down, so in that situation I am actually gaining however many seconds of slowdown from the mend timer
If i end up chasing the bodyblocker, and get that down and then get hit with DS, I get punished and lose time, but i have no choice but to follow through because I have already commited time into that down and since I dont know where anyone is I have no real option but to continue on that person and because now I'm pissed off, because I really wasnt trying to tunnel, but got punished for it anyways, I am going to camp/tunnel that person to death.
Compare that to my suggestion where after the unhook even if they tank the hit they can essentially dissappear and the unhooker is highlighted, so the killer is more likely to go for the unhooker unless they make the conscious decision to tunnel which is still going to be alot harder with all the defensive effects they have, I mean Im sure you can do it if you want with your perfect tracking ability and game sense but for an average killer its gonna be pretty difficult.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
It's not on the survivor to offer themselves as a sacrifice, ever. The killer just needs to hook and go next.
Most people are hung up on the 'survivor not trying to escape', but does it change anything if the survivor is on a gen just missing every skill check until the killer leaves? No, it doesn't.
Besides, if it's 'help him get the achievement', fine. I'll start feeding myself to every tombstone Myers, but only after every killer stops slugging for the 4k. Apparently it's on the killers to offer me the Left Behind achievement, just in case I don't have it yet.
Honestly, i hope you get me sometime, I am very strict when it comes to giving hatch but if while I'm looking for hatch after the 3rd kill I see a survivor working on the last gen instead of running around looking for hatch or hiding, I respect the hell out of them for not giving up and let them finish and escape. It even cost me my 1st attempt getting adept knight, but theirs is much harder so I gave it to them.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
I am trying to complete all Steam achievements and am attempting the Power Moves achievement where you have to complete a single gen and escape without equipping any perks.
In about 5 hours I have not escaped once, not even a single time when playing solo queue. (Edit, when attempting this achievement, I have escaped with perks)
Every match is a one of, or a combination of, being tunnelled off hook, camped, team mates being tunnelled and therefore DCing and oppressive Eruption based gen control builds where we have the laughable meta of killers literally breaking chase to kick a gen as Eruption gives them more value
Beyond bringing a good medkit I don't know what else to do for this achievement. I am pipping up as still doing a lot in every match but this is meaningless really
There are 3 basic options for this achievement IMO.
1. Just keep playing perkless, Items and offerings can help a bit, eventually you will get it.
2. You can cheese it a bit and play it super safe, you dont need to complete a gen you need to repair the equivalent of 1 full gen, so bring a key and hatch offering get 50% progress on 2 different gens and teammates be damned to get it done fast.
3. Set up/find a SWF of people who want to get the achievement and take turns getting progress with 3 competent people running meta builds and 1perkless and you all know if the mach starts going south everyone knows to get killed away from where hatch spawns and die on hook as fast as possible so the perkless one can get hatch
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@SmarulKusia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298895#Comment_3298895
No because the Survivor's last chance at survival is to jump in the locker - or stun the Myers out of the mori by vaulting/doing a gen and etc - locker generally being the best because it has no time constraints.
In this situation, the survivor is already in the locker so the best chance they have is to stay in the locker, hope the killer takes them out and that maybe the killer won't be able to hook them in time. The killer still has several options in this scenario to kill the survivor - they DONT need the survivor to exit the locker to kill them.
It's not hypocrisy, it's entitlement to an achievement and stubbornness holding the game hostage - because nothing is stopping the killer from killing the survivor.
Except for the fact that if they do take the survivor out of the locker as you acknowledge there is a chance the survivor may wiggle out and have a chance to escape. Whereas if they wait until the survivor comes out it is a guarenteed kill, or if the survivor stays in the locker until the match timer ends the match they die that way as well. So the best move the killer can make is to wait for a guaranteed kill.
Its nothing but survivor entitlement and stubborness holding the game hostage because nothing is stopping the survivor from trying to escape.
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@jamally093 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298901#Comment_3298901
But that's the weird thing I repaired the gen did the skill check and it blew up after giving the skill check
Did it blow up when someone went down?
If not just walk me through it step by step what happened
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298326#Comment_3298326
Disable if healed. Tada.
I dont think you understand how that works
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@jamally093 said:
Yeah you know Overcharge the perk that says it actives when preforming the damage generator action not causing it. I got a gen it blew up and say an Overcharge skill appear which made no sense since the killer never kicked it meaning he didn't preform the action he caused it.
Well the killer kicks the gen and both go onto the gen, if no one touches the gen and the killer gets a down it will explode and regress the gen and the overcharge skill check is still there until someone tries to repair the gen.
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@SmarulKusia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298872#Comment_3298872
But they can more than likely get the survivor out and on a hook.
It takes 16 seconds to wiggle off - which is more than enough time with hook proximity.
The survivor's ONLY option of surviving is by staying in the locker or engaging in actions that would block out the instant mori. The killer can STILL kill whether its by bleeding the survivor out, hooking them or mori-ing them but the killer is refusing to do any option which is holding the game hostage.
Don't be obnoxious, no one is entitled to an achievement and just play the game.
Im not being obnoxious, I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy.
If the survivor is progressing their objective by staying in the locker giving them a slim chance at escape, then the killer is progressing their objective by preventing that slim chance from happening. Even if there was no achievement this would still be the correct play in terms of the killer guaranteeing a kill.
You cant have it both ways either both are at fault for not progressing the game or neither are at fault for not progressing the game
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@SmarulKusia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298855#Comment_3298855
They would be throwing their objective if they allowed the killer to just mori them.
Their objective is to survive and escape - by going into the locker they are trying to survive because they could still potentially wiggle off or jump off the hook Lol.
So the killer could be throwing away a guarenteed kill by grabbing out of the locker.
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@SmarulKusia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298273#Comment_3298273
It doesn't make them a bad sport if the killer is refusing to kill them via a hook. The killer is refusing to do their objective just because they want an achievement (and it's an achievement for a reason).
The survivor is also refusing to do their objective though, they aren't gonna escape by sitting in a locker.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298746#Comment_3298746
Many of us however are not perfect and there are many circumstances where DS can be used offensively against us.
But... That's basically still a failure on your part, not the perk being overpowered. It's not hard to avoid getting hit with DS, at all. I'm not a 'perfect killer', not by a VERY long shot. I just don't tunnel, and I am wary of DS whenever the person that throws themselves in front of me is someone that recently got unhooked.
Sometimes it can be difficult to tell survivors apart especially as there is no restriction on matching survivors and cosmetics.
You have a status tracker. You know exactly who was on the hook and who went down, because this information is fed to you, live. Even with four identical Claudettes, you can tell them apart, because their order in the status tracker is fixed. If Claudette 2 came off the hook, and you hit a Claudette, and you see Claudette 2's status change, you know it's the same Claudette.
This is false your suggestion is to not only revert it but double its effectiveness. Pre 6.1 you could at least get hit with an undeserved DS and you could at least eat the DS and then not have to worry about it, which was the only thing that made it remotely bearable.
Well, if the 'once per unhook' is that much of a problem, we can leave it out, but really, be honest: If you fall for that trick, from the same survivor, twice in one trial? You aren't winning that match or any other, anyway.
your suggestion makes it completely unbalanced and overpowered.
It really doesn't. The problem you're foreseeing is a non-issue with DS. It's an issue with OTR though.
OTR is fine and balanced, it was fine as an anti tunnel perk before basekit BT and still fine as it is now, because it protects the unhooked survivor by preventing them from getting downed, instead of punishing the killer for doing their job.
You are partially right about the status tracker, however lets use your example of identical claudettes. I injure claudette before the unhook and try to hit her again after the unhook and the person off the hook tanks the hit at this point I cant use the status tracker to tell them apart, and i lose track of which one is which.
If by luck I chase the right one i get a down and a hook, if i go for the wrong one I get the down and my options are limited, I can slug which with no info to go off of doesnt do alot for me, especially if they have unbreakable which is often paired with DS, so the only real option is to eat the ds and re get the down and hook. So even though I didnt intend to tunnel I still got punished.
This is the fundamental issue with DS, and why it isnt an anti tunnel perk, it does nothing to actually stop tunnelling it is purely a punishment.
I'm all for making tunnelling more difficult, my approach offers making the act of getting the down more difficult and ensures the killer will know they are tunnelling and get punished for the intent not the action itself.
The DS approach applies the punishment with no regard to intent, which is fine to choose the perk on an individual level, but for that to apply as a blanket all the time would be super frustrating, especially when your being punished and are actively trying not to tunnel. If your gonna get punished either way why bother trying not to tunnel, there is no incentive not to.
Imagine if you accidentally bump into someone and they were allowed to punch you in the face, eventually you would get tired of getting punched in the face for something you didnt mean to do and your gonna try and do damage on those accidental bumps since yor gonna get punched in the face either way.
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@HugTechLover said:
Some killers on here loaattthh survivors that can loop. Many times I’ll run a killer forever and when I finally get downed, it’s head shakes, hit on hook, nodders, or slugged till last second then hooked. I don’t teabag, point, etc. My buddies that can’t really loop well rarely receive the same treatment from that killer.
I’m not upset, just find it funny at times. You shake your head at me after losing 2-3 gens to the chase.. 😂
P.S; I am a killer main, and I loveeee a good survivor. 10 second chases are no fun. The best looper usually gets to have hatch.
It depends, i dont do all the bm unless they are a tbagger. If if they are chaining tiles I totally respect it, but I hate the run around something 3 times in a row to get them to stun me with a pallet because you cant mindgame the loop, because its very unengaging gameplay.
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@AverageAshEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298758#Comment_3298758
still, would it be OP without the penalty?
Hard to say for sure, but you could ask that question about alot of things, however in just about all cases stealth comes with some kind of penalty attached to it.
Would technician be op if it didnt have the extra regression penalty? Probably not
Quick and quiet with no cooldown? Probably yes.
@Zephinism said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298769#Comment_3298769
I doubt you have used this perk 'quite effectively on many occasions' in the past 5 months. Given that nightlight puts it at 0.69% usage rate and that 4.6% of users seen using this perk were trying to Adept Jake Park in the process this perk gets barely any use.
You want us to believe that not only do you use this perk, but you've managed to get effective use out of it on 'many occasions'.
Do you perhaps have any screenshots or videos of you using this perk effectively in the past 5 months?
I dont know what that is, and I'm on console and dont record gameplay.
However taking an estimation of my survivor playtime 15 hrs/week for 20 weeks is 300 hours at a 15 min average match time is about 1200 matches, and i dont run it in all my builds by any stretch probably only maybe 5-10% which is somewhere between 60-120 matches.
I do have my personal tracking of running it for a good solid week in all my builds shortly after it got changed, a total of 83 matches. I had 18.5 chest openings that I got away with (5 were basement chest with very strong terror radius but killer not in basement so only gave a 0.5), 4 of which were endgame keys that led to hatch escapes not from the basement chest. As for hex totems my count was 32 ( lots of people were still running ruin undying at this point), the killer was in chase with someone for 12 of those so some of that may have been choice, but there were 5 NOED, and 7 devour hope out of the 32, which are ones you would really try to protect.
I guess it may depend on how you define many and I acknowledge some of those may not have been all due to calm spirit but I was pretty selective on what I was counting for the most part.
The thing with its usage rate is most people dont even give it a chance, people on the forums blasted it and gave it a real bad rep, and alot of people see the 30% and dont figure out the math and what it actually means and disregard it based on that alone and just dont use it.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298769#Comment_3298769
It does slow down gens and heals. Every extra second you're spending on a totem or chest is a second taken off of you doing a gen, healing, or rescuing.
Thats a pretty weak arguement you could open all 3 gens and cleanse all 5 totems which your not gonna try and do in a match anyways and it will cost you 29 extra seconds or 1/3rd of 1 gen.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298758#Comment_3298758
You're not less likely to get interrupted if the killer has an extra 30% time to find and interrupt you. And chests are pretty much unconditionally not worth opening, so taking 30% longer is a huge extra waste of time.
The perk was niche and weak, now it's niche and unusable. It basically joins No Mither and Autodidact in being in the wrong perk pool.
I have managed to use the perk quite effectively on many occasions.
Pre change many a time I had killers break chase to come after me because they heard me cleansing their hex, with new calm spirit that almost never happens. The only time it really puts you at a disadvantage is if the totem is out in the open or if they are running Thrill increasing the time even more.
Ive also used it in my chest diver build many times to pull a key in the killers patrol area giving me a hatch escape when doors were too close together to pull off a door escape.
It's still niche but definitely usable and it doesnt slow down gens or heal so the penalty is pretty minor
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@Jackal7879 said:
Can we all agree that the “buff” was a big nerf 30% speed penalty for a very niche ability.the tiers should 10%/5%/0%.Or give a new effect all together
No we ALL cannot, the 30% is actually very minor. 3 seconds on a chest is nothing especially as if you are interrupted it doesnt lose progress. Hex perks are already super weak as it is, but again 5 extra seconds to cleanse a totem and eliminating the sound of breaking bones making it less likely to get interrupted is pretty balanced and not really that big of a deal.
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@Tom0505 said:
I play dbd on my pc through the xbox app on game pass and my xbox account is linked to my epic games account. so if I was to buy dbd on the epic games store would the progress from my xbox account carry over?
No
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@duygu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298616#Comment_3298616
we both know what i meant, you wrote all that just to argue off my general wording. matchmaking is a separate issue that shouldn't be considered in game balance.
If you dont have balanced matchmaking there is no baseline balance to work off of, which is the point. The balance issue is matchmaking not SWF or Comms, which is why I wont touch solo queue with a 10 ft pole.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298665#Comment_3298665
Ok so everyone starts running DS again and its even stronger now, and it totally will get used against killers who arent tunnelling because the weaker version that only worked once was constantly used against killers who werent trying to tunnel.
Survivors can't use it against any killer.
Survivors can't use it at all. Survivors can't force the activation condition. Killers have to work to make this perk trigger. Pay attention to the status indicators and you know who was pulled off the hook last. All you have to do is not pick them up, and the perk does nothing.
I have been hit by DS -once-, and it's not for lack of trying on the survivors' part. But after that first time, I remembered the perk's existence, and whenever I encounter the survivor that was unhooked last, I try to go for a different target. If they try to obstruct me, I make them take a nap.
To say that DS has counterplay is an understatement. In its current state, the killer has to either try really hard to make it pop, or fall for obvious bait. Either way, the killer is at fault and deserves a stun.
A level of facecamping meta to secure kills that you cant begin to imagine.
Considering my proposal is more or less a revert to what we had before 6.1, I can absolutely imagine. And it isn't particularly worse than what we have right now.
Besides, killers will threaten to facecamp over literally any change they don't like. It's kind of their beatstick to try and force the devs into doing what they want. I've grown kind of numb to the trantrum.
I find it funny that you have no comment on the actual anti tunnelling effects that I mention adding to basekit BT, but okay lets focus on your points of contention.
1. Survivors cant use it against any killers.
While you are partially correct because it cant come into play if you slug the person, and maybe the issues dont apply to you who is a perfect killer and has only been hit by DS once.
Many of us however are not perfect and there are many circumstances where DS can be used offensively against us.
Sometimes it can be difficult to tell survivors apart especially as there is no restriction on matching survivors and cosmetics.
Using their invincibility to bodyblock/flashlight save and interfere with hooking someone else, as soon as that happens DS should be disabled but isn't.
Fake working on a gen with another survivor, I dont have an issue with this one its a good play but it'll come up in the next point.
2. Considering my proposal is more or less a revert to what we had before 6.1.
This is false your suggestion is to not only revert it but double its effectiveness. Pre 6.1 you could at least get hit with an undeserved DS and you could at least eat the DS and then not have to worry about it, which was the only thing that made it remotely bearable.
DS as it stands now is fine in terms of its stun. There are things you could add to it to boost its defensibility like I suggested but your suggestion makes it completely unbalanced and overpowered.
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@Okonar_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298600#Comment_3298600
- Sacrificial wards appear once or maybe twice per prestige level, its not even close to keep up with the influx of map offerings;
- Theres still a chance to be send to the maps for the achievement/meme builds and I can guarantee you most swfs are not sending me often to eyrie, garden, badham, ormond, etc, to complete achievements;
- I will take RNG over the certainty of a terrible designed map.
Well you would only need sacrificial wards if you think a swf is burning multiple map offerings which is pretty rare in all other circumstances you can just use any map offering and then you have RNG.
I will give you eyrie and garden, badham isnt that bad. However I resent you putting Ormond on that list as it is my favorite map (either side), and is a perfect example as it is super rare to actually come up in general rng, I have gone over 60 matches without it coming up in rotation naturally on multiple occasions.
RNG sucks and I will gladly burn a random map offering every match to get proper RNG
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@RainehDaze said:
Still wondering why every suggestion to fix second chance perks trends straight to 'for an entire minute after they get off the hook, even a still-injured survivor has de facto three health states'. Like, yes, they might not be doing anything for this minute. That's true. But if they can buy time for the less-protected survivor to get away and then the other three survivors have a minute of safety? Well, that's way more effective.
The usage of anti-tunnel effects to distract and protect others rather than avoid tunnelling always exacerbates it. Because when you lose more time trying to not trigger them and go for someone else, that just engrains the mindset of 'take them and get it over with'.
Mine only affects the immediacy of the current basekit BT
@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298490#Comment_3298490
Ok so everyone starts running DS again and its even stronger now, and it totally will get used against killers who arent tunnelling because the weaker version that only worked once was constantly used against killers who werent trying to tunnel.
Your suggestion will lead to 2 things.
1. Extremely long queue times as killers who get hit with undeserved DS get sick of it and leave/play survivor.
2. A level of facecamping meta to secure kills that you cant begin to imagine.
DS is not the answer to tunnelling, especially with your suggestions, which are super unbalanced.
A much more fair and balanced way to try and reduce tunnelling is to simply add more defensiveness to the basekit borrowed time.
First off double the haste to 20% that gives you 0.2 m/s faster than a 4.6 killer that can be used to loop/get away.
Second for those 10 seconds, block aura reading of unhooked survivor, no blood or scratch marks, quick and quiet with no cooldown, 100% reduction in pain sounds and breathing. This litany of defensive boosts eliminates all but visual tracking of the unhooked survivors giving tons of options for breaking line of sight and losing the killer.
Third and finally the killer gains killer instinct on the unhooking survivor and have all but the unhooked survivors aura shown for 5 seconds, incentivizing the unhooker and any other survivor as a target especially with the difficulty of tracking the unhooked survivor.
As for buffing DS as an option I would be completely fine with applying the entire second portion of my Borrowed time buff for 5 seconds to give it more defensive utility without making it prone to abuse.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298363#Comment_3298363
The skillcheck is actually a really simply, ready-made limitation to DS that it actually does need: It sets a time limit for when the perk can be used. We don't want people using DS after the killer has spent 15 seconds wandering to the hook, they have to use it the moment they get picked up.
But yeah, overall, DS was the perfect anti-tunnel perk. It would waste the killer's time if they tried to tunnel, but if the survivor tried body-blocking with it, it would waste the survivors' time instead. It was honestly so well-designed that when it was theorised that BT was going to be baselined, I was advocating for DS to take that spot instead.
And lo and behold, we got BT instead and tunnelling is more effective than ever. With OTR trying to take the baton from DS, its crappy design immediately reared its ugly head on the PTB with the Endurance stacking issue. Then that got patched out and we're left with a perk that doesn't work against killers that tunnel hard enough due to innate BT, and it DOES work against killers that don't tunnel. It's the exact opposite of what you want out of a perk that fits this purpose. It's literally a worse deal for both sides of the fence.
What they should've done with the anti-tunnel changes instead:
- Current DS becomes baseline. That's the 3 second stun, disabled once the fifth generator is done so you can't get around the deactivation by 99ing the gates. It should also activate off both unhooks.
- BT baseline is removed.
- The perk DS now increases the stun duration back to 5 seconds (Or six, leave it neatly doubled) and then disables active killer powers for a duration to make it MORE effective against killers with impressive powersets, and LESS effective against weaker killers.
- OTR becomes an information denial perk, blocking aura reading, removing blood trails and scratch marks, and turning the survivor completely silent. This will make it risky for the killer to chase after them, as a skilled survivor might be able to give them the slip and waste their time more effectively than DS can. This makes OTR a competitor to DS, but rather than just being flat better, it increases the risk/reward factor.
This would be fairer to killers, as DS and OTR would not be able to be used against non-tunnellers, and fairer to survivors, because they're more effective against tunnelling.
Ok so everyone starts running DS again and its even stronger now, and it totally will get used against killers who arent tunnelling because the weaker version that only worked once was constantly used against killers who werent trying to tunnel.
Your suggestion will lead to 2 things.
1. Extremely long queue times as killers who get hit with undeserved DS get sick of it and leave/play survivor.
2. A level of facecamping meta to secure kills that you cant begin to imagine.
DS is not the answer to tunnelling, especially with your suggestions, which are super unbalanced.
A much more fair and balanced way to try and reduce tunnelling is to simply add more defensiveness to the basekit borrowed time.
First off double the haste to 20% that gives you 0.2 m/s faster than a 4.6 killer that can be used to loop/get away.
Second for those 10 seconds, block aura reading of unhooked survivor, no blood or scratch marks, quick and quiet with no cooldown, 100% reduction in pain sounds and breathing. This litany of defensive boosts eliminates all but visual tracking of the unhooked survivors giving tons of options for breaking line of sight and losing the killer.
Third and finally the killer gains killer instinct on the unhooking survivor and have all but the unhooked survivors aura shown for 5 seconds, incentivizing the unhooker and any other survivor as a target especially with the difficulty of tracking the unhooked survivor.
As for buffing DS as an option I would be completely fine with applying the entire second portion of my Borrowed time buff for 5 seconds to give it more defensive utility without making it prone to abuse.
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@duygu said:
This is true, but you're making the wrong claim. You should instead say things like "solo queue will never be as good as swf". Facts that cannot be disputed.
That "fact" can easily be disputed.
A team of 4 high skilled survivors with no comms will have much better overall results than a 4 man SWF of average skilled players, against the same killers.
The only way your statement could be 100% truth and fact would be if you had a team of 4 solo queue players with the same skill level as a 4 man swf team, and had them playing matches against the same skill level killers.
Under these conditions you would see probably better results by the SWF, depending on how efficiently they are using their comms would determine how much better they do.
The fact that to make your statement 100% fact, requires many stipulations with regards to matchmaking, shows that you cant just say "solo queue will never be as good as swf".
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@Okonar_ said:
I have been getting sessions where theres way more map offerings matches than not, its getting out of control. The chances of 1 out of 4 survivors use one is way too high to keep map offerings the way they are, and I don't think killers should have 100% map offerings either. I'm not a fan of how one side can try to cheese the game right from the start like that.
Heres how to make it a little more fair:
- Map offerings now have 33,33%(1/3) chance of sending the players to the specific realm (same for both sides, NOT STACKABLE);
- If 2 or 3 survivors use different map offerings, each one will have 10% chance;
- If all 4 survivors use different map offerings, the chance goes down to 5% each.
This way you can still use it for meme builds (just might need few more tries), without losing the variety/RNG aspect of the default game.
I'm gonna disagree here. Map offerings are fine in terms of their balancing.
1. They can be used equally by either side.
2. As killer you also have sacrificial ward to just block map offerings in general.
There are plenty of valid reasons to use Map Offerings that arent cheesing the game.
1. Certain achievements require you to go to certain maps. Outbreak Breakout anyone
2. Certain archive challenges are almost impossible on some maps, or progress much faster/easier on some maps. The game for pallet break, and several maps cant progress fall from a great height in chase.
3. Certain killers/builds(survivor or killer), can be useless on some maps. Scratched mirror Myers comes to mind first but there are many others.
4. You bring up RNG like its a good thing, but RNG can be a problem in itself. I have had multiple sessions where RNG will send me to the same map 3 times in a row, or 9 out 10 matches will bump back and forth between 2 realms, and you play offerings just to get maps you havent seen in a while.
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@Zerotoxiks said:
This achievement/trophy is so bad. This game has over 40+ maps.
I’ve gone over a week without seeing an RPD map or even an offering!
i don’t know what to do anymore :(
Level up your bloodweb and get some RPD offerings and then use them.
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@Blue94 said:
I'm sick and tired of tunnelling and it makes me not want to play, easiest way to fix tunnelling is literally make it so you cant hook the same person twice in a row, wouldn't be something that's hard to implement , still allowing the survivor to go down but not allowing them to be picked up until someone else has been hooked first
There are so many issues with this I don't even know where to start