hermitkermit
hermitkermit
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Surprised to see so many say it's not a very good perk. As a solo q main, friends till the end has destroyed my matches more often then it hasn't. It can be a great snowball, especially on maps that are smaller. But I doubt I'm playing in mega-ultra-high-intense-mmr lol so maybe when its up there it's not very good.
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I still feel frustrated when survivors sacrifice themselves on the first hook, but my understanding has deepened over time. It always lowers the teams chances of survival, which is why I'm typically always against it. However, I know that oftentimes there's more to it than frustration at "being outplayed". The game is intricate, influenced by numerous factors. Occasionally, the odds are stacked against you from the beginning, and no amount of positive attitude or effort will change the outcome. Some people yield to death/defeat quicker than others.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716896#Comment_3716896
getting hooked is failing.
I was under the impression that survivors are meant to go down and get hooked after a period of time? If it wasn't balanced to be easier to get hooked then to not be hooked, I'm not sure why 3 hooks states would exist. Things like bloodlust also support the idea that a survivor should go down and get hooked after "x" amount of time. I think survivors goal of course is to survive but getting a hook doesn't mean you failed, as the game is designed and intended for you to get hooked at least two times before you die. If you mean specifically the last hook is failing, then yeah, I would agree with that for the most part.
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I went up against an Artist on Midwich once. I didn't loop them for a crazy amount of gens or anything, because unfortunately no gens were being worked on. But I kept her busy for a pretty substantial amount of time. So much so that at the end of the match, after killing the rest of the team, she gave me hatch. In the aftergame chat she told me she had to let me go because I looped so well. It really made my whole night. The first time anyone had ever complimented me like that. She said she was scared I was going to cost her the game, and that if my team actually tried, everyone probably would have made it, but because my team didn't do gens it didn't end up mattering how well I looped. Still, it was really nice. <3
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@ChaosWam said:
I don't understand how people are mistaking this for greed.
We all know killers have vastly different limits to how they can be played and some REQUIRE the slowdowns if you want to have a chance with good survivors. Why is this never addressed?
And as far as stopping 'bullying', hook sabotage just got a massive buff. We're gonna see more sabo squads trying to abuse boil over builds.
I think the point is that it feels greedy because instead of people being happy with changes being made that they asked for, they shift their target to something different to complain about. Are there still improvements to be made? Sure, this game is always evolving so there's always going to be adjustments. But right now, killer is in a really good spot. Kill rates are right where the devs want them to be. And these recent updates have shown that the Devs are listening to both sides.
A week ago on this forum the things people were complaining about- have been changed. (like FTP + Buckle up, DS, Background Player etc.) And on survivor side, it was the 4 stacking of gen slow down perks and how oppressive they were. This update addresses both! That's progress. That's good :)
So I think the point is just a reminder of all the good things that have happened, and that the changes to gen regression are there to balance out the other things. Gen regression has been the meta since like Overcharge/Call of Brine so it's been around a long time, I think it will be good to shake things up a bit. They're buffing alot of older killers too, so I believe they are going in the direction of not needing to rely on perks with gen regress so much, and instead making the killers base-kit stronger, which in my opinion, is good!
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I agree with many people in the post that say this is more of a beginners problem rather than a "killer". Both sides suffer from people with this mentality, and ultimately I think a big contributer is how unfreindly DBD is to new players.
In my opinion, typically in early games, killers do a little better, as surivvors don't know how to loop, or even run while looking behind them yet, so the new killers steadily start climbing due to MMR, not because they are playing so much better but because survivor is not as straight forward as killer when starting out. This results in killers getting thrown into much higher lobbies than they were probably ready for because once they start facing survivors who aren't completely new, they have had no experience going against them. It can feel like some whiplash and then it's a slow grind to get balanced.
And on the flip side of the same coin, survivors start out getting steamrolled pretty quickly, and continue to feel steamrolled for a very long time. Once you get higher up, the game shifts, and surviving because much more possible, but it is also a slow grind, which can make the game feel super unfair because you've been playing for 300 hours and you've only won a handful of matches.
I feel like DBD is very unfriendly and chaotic for new players, it doesn't explain anything on either side, and it feels like they throw you in the pool and expect you to teach yourself to swim or you're gonna drown. Not to mention you don't have access to many good perks or add-ons in the beginning either. Here's hoping something gets better for newer players.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715739#Comment_3715739
As I said to pulser and someone else, these comments come from a place of "well if I can do it you can too." Which isn't true at all. Not everyone is at the same skill level and perform the same. Everyone has strengths and weakness when it comes to gaming. Just because you and pulser can win games with little to no slowdown means I can or someone else can. I don't believe everyone can achieve the same level of skill. There to many factors like physical and mental states, time, and overall mind set. Some of us don't eat, drink and breathe DBD. The avg player will most likely only play few hours and night or week.
Here the bestest issue and I will continue to say this, the MMR system doesn't not allows pair you up with similar skill players. In fact in my case MMR system barely works because 90% of my matches are completely stomps. Very rarely I get a match that feel good and fun.
Ultimately my issue with comments like yours is that they seem to come from a idea that everyone can achieve the same level of skill and play as you and I honestly believe that simply not true.
I understand your point in MMR being inconsistent, and because of that it feels unfair to gauge certain things. But I think the problem with that reason is that it completely shuts down any hope for compromise, understanding or conversation. It feels like a way to shut down anything. Someone could say "Well MMR doesn't work" as a justification for literally anything in the game.
So I ask, in your opinion, If solutions can't be accepted to problems with reasoning being the inconsistency of MMR, how could the game or the people that play the game move forward?
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:( sorry, friend. If you need someone to talk to feel free to message me.
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@Reinami said:
I hope they add freddy from 5 nights at freddy's. Because when they do, i'll finally be able to just quit this game and move on.
In all seriousness. I'm hoping for some baskit changes that encourage hooks and chases over kills, and a rebalancing of basekit gen regression so that you can play the game without gen defense perks and still feel like you are doing something.
I would love that, truly would be a real quality of life change. Instead of fnaf Freddy we should give some love to our Freddy. Poor guy needs some updates.
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I'm sorry you've had a frustrating experience. It can be unpleasant but that's because humans are involved and humans can be unpleasant. Honestly I think what has hurt the game and the community the most is there is a clear divide, bias, and judgment that the community created itself. You use NOED? Trash. You main meg? Trash. You nodded at me on hook? Trash. You got a flashlight save? Trash.
Even in the forums on posts or replies it's so clear who is a "main" of something because there is a clear disconnect that can be downright rude and nasty for no reason. Some don't even bother trying to understand the struggles of the other side and just shoot out buzz words or phrases like, "toxic, entitled, git gud, gg ez" etc. People in the game are very quick to put others in boxes. You're either one or the other. People are quick to judge or assume based on the character you pick or perks you use. The community divided itself and then gets mad at what they divded.
I wouldn't say it's a super "toxic" community but it's a very judgemental community that isn't typically willing to empathize with the "other side".
I hope you have better games <3
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711730#Comment_3711730
"...Add a minigame on the generator with exactly the same mechanics (but you don't need toolbox and perks for this). You have to use one button to repair, then the other, then charge something, then release it, all this jazz. If you do everything correctly you should have saved like… 5 seconds of total repair time (or something similiar) when compared to normal repairing (normal repairing should still be an option)."
Is this not you in the OP? Did a ghost hijack your body and write that so that you have no recollection? I know some very good exorcists.
That’s a bit out of place. No need to belittle anybody. Besides that not even the OP. But yes I agree that gens go fast enough right now and don’t need any other buffs for speed. I think redesigning how gens are repaired with more of an interactive skill check system could be interesting though, just keep the value you’d get the same as the current system.
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Yeah body blocking hatch isn’t against the rules or anything, but If it lasts a very long time it can be considered taking the game hostage, and it is reportable. Maybe try making a report and attaching the video to it. Hopefully it doesn’t happen again, good luck in your next.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712979#Comment_3712979
Honestly that would be cool. Jason had a 90% kill rate in Friday and people loved being counselors in that game so why not bump the kill rates up to 70%?
Honestly if dbd tried to steer more in the direction of Friday and just made it silly like that with the dances and clothes and stuff I don’t think people would mind a kill rate that high cause it’s just goofy fun. I think dbd is more serious/competitive and anything silly in dbd typically gets nerfed or removed so :’) rip sky billy
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@Hex_Llama said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712205#Comment_3712205
If what you're noticing is just that people are complaining more about DS right now than tunneling, I think that could be because the changes to DS are new and people are usually more active in talking about things that are new.
I would say yes that what initially caught my attention, was people talking about DS being used this way and why it was deserving of nerfs. And that’s when I made the post because the reasons behind wanting it nerfed felt very familiar to posts that have existed since the dawn of the game. But I suspect it won’t be as much of a problem as people may be fearing, so it probably won’t come up much. But ya never know! Gliyn btw
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@Hex_Llama said:
I mean, sure, it's hypocritical if some hypothetical person thinks it's good to tunnel and bad to use DS offensively, but I feel like not many people actually make that argument. I think most players either hate both of those things or are equally fine with whatever.
I mean the hypocrisy in more of a general sense, not in a specific example of 1 individual.
For example, the two biggest complaints I read about in the comments of this post about using DS this way is because 1 “it’s not intended to be used this way” and 2 “it punishes someone who didn’t deserve it”. I would argue that tunneling also falls into both categories, yet it’s been in the game since inception and while many don’t like it, it still persists so often that DS was not only created but recently buffed for todays game, and is still defended as a valid strategy regardless or how many may not like it.
So why is DS deserving of nerfs when tunneling isn’t deserving of nerfs even though they have the same reasons for “being unhealthy/toxic”? You could say basekit BT is a “nerf” to tunneling, and I could say DS no longer working in endgame or after conspicuous action is a “nerf” to DS. So it’s not as if 1 has never received backlash over the other. But I typically see people defend and justify tunneling more often than people complain about it because I believe the community has accepted it, after all it’s been in the game for as long as the game has existed. So if one can stay in the game…why can’t the other? The way the community has responded to it feels very hypocritical. That’s what I mean by my post.
Thanks for taking the time to give your perspective :)
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I made a post a few days ago about this topic, and it was very interesting to see the opinions everyone has on it and why the like/dislike it. I did learn a bit though from some replies, and that is that many seemed to actually prefer more people on gens then to deal with DS being used this way.
Which I was honestly surprised about, because typically the less people on gens the lower chance of survival. Even if someone loops the killer for 5 minutes straight, wasting a bunch of time, it doesn't matter if nobody is on gens. But whenever points about the counter to this DS were brougt up, how 1 would be slugged with the DS and then you go after the other in a chase, and then the 1 that has to get the unhooks or the pickup meaning that leaves 1 out of 4 to work on a gen, it seemed many would prefer just the 1 down and the other 3 on gens. It's about preference I guess.
Anyways, I hope you get some good discusions, and hopefully everyone is kind and respectful!
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Whenever I have killer challenges, I literally just put on the silly ghost face mask and show that I’m friendly, then I hit the hook and nod and the survivors literally line up in a row to be hooked. I’ve never had a killer challenge take more than 2-3 matches to complete depending on exactly what it is. I wish survivor had easier challenges like that. Im stuck on one that says all 4 people have to escape, but they all have to escape before me. And as a solo q player Im like…sure that’ll take a week or two haha. I feel your pain op.
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@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711352#Comment_3711352
The point of my post is that many people who are upset about DS being using in this way feel it is punishing someone that doesn't deserve it- which I understand, and agree that it isn't fun, but tunneling in itself feels like a punishment to someone that didn't deserve it either, but it is accepted as a valid playstyle, and that's why it feel hypocritical. I understand if you personally don't accept it as a valid playstyle, but enough do.
Here is the same generalization again, tunneling accepted by who? Offensive DS being complained by who?
The people that complain about DS used offensively DONT TUNNEL themselves, don't condone it and aren't the ones accepted tunneling as valid. Therefore there is no hypocrisy or double standards.
Are you saying that if they have access to anti-tunneling tools they can't complain about tunneling? Or are you saying that if they have unfun strats they can't complain about unfun strats?
Neither. I am saying that if survivor get a counter against a certain play style they don't like but then force that same play style because they are now protected against it, have no right to complain if they themselves FORCE it, which is the whole point of "using DS offensively".
so I don't understand why you feel like it's not allowed to be..upset about something you don't like?
When the opponent doesn't use that unfun thing or strategy but the other party suddenly forces it because they know they have a guaranteed counter, then they shouldn't complain. Being upset about tunneling in general is totally fine.
If your point in this is saying, "survivors can't be upset about tunneling because they have this DS they can use offensively now," then I would agree that if a person goes out of their way to use it offensively and then gets hooked because of it, then yes, I would agree they shouldn't say they were tunneled, because they weren't
And here you suddenly get my point, at least partially. Using DS offensively is ONLY possible in this scenario by definition.
If the killer tunnels from the beginning, DS CANT be used offensively because it has to be used defensively. And if the killer doesn't tunnel, it can't be used defensively, only offensively by throwing yourself in front of the killer and bodyblocking.
Those two cases are mutually exclusive and depend on the play style of the killer, which leads me back to the problem with generalization and the mentioned hypocrisy.
An analogy would be, if you (general, not personal you) drive on the highway with a cop car behind you. They simply let you go on your way but you decide to break check them. They then pull you over into a traffic stop and afterwards you cry about unfair treatment and profiling or something. You provoked the situation and therefore have only yourself to blame.
That's what I meant by "using DS offensively isn't toxic but the behaviour that often follows afterwards is" as an answer to your question in the title.
(Sorry, if I address several points multiple times but a m tired and too lazy to rewrite everything into one congruent text. 😴)
”Tunneling accepted by who?” The people that tunnel regardless if it is “deserved “ or not.
“Offensive DS being complained about who?” The people that are being hit with a DS when they weren’t tunneling regardless if it is “deserved” or not.
Both being “punished” regardless if they “deserved” it or not.
Killers used to be the only role that could “punish” someone regardless if it was “deserved” or not. Now survivors can also “punish” someone regardless if it was “deserved” or not.
If someone used DS offensively it is not tunneling. If you agree that it isn’t toxic to use it this way then we’re on the same page.I’m not sure how to break it down any more than that.
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@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710678#Comment_3710678
Okay, 3 pages of comments and in my eyes your premise is still flawed.
It's hard for me to justify or sympathize almost because the reasons why using DS offensively is "bad" and why tunneling is "bad" are the same argument, but one is accepted and the other is not.
This a gross and wrong generalization.
The people that complain about ds used offensively are NOT the same that accept tunneling.
On the contrary, ds can only be used offensively against people that have agreed to the notion of tunneling as bad, therefore go out of their way to not do it, then get forced by the survivor and to top it of get still called tunneler and complained about.
The people that don't care about the tunneling complains and have "accepted it as a valid strategy" will do it regardless and therefore ds can only be used DEFENSIVELY against them.
Those two groups might not be clear cut and a part of the complains might be from notorious tunnelers but in general they aren't the same.
And aggressively used DS isn't toxic, the unfair treatment afterwards is.
Survivor can either have their cake of functional anti tunneling tools/perks or can justifiably complain about unfun strategies used against them, not both.
Same with a killer that is intend on tunneling and then complains about backlash.
Either tunnel and accept complaints/countermeasure being implemented or play hard mode/friendly and survivor have nothing to complain about.
Sadly the latter doesn't keep survivor from complaining anyway, when the match didn't go their way, which is also a frequent double standard on that side.
So, there's alot to talk about here. I'm not sure if you're looking for a genuine discussion, as you seem to be making things a bit personal, and I'm not trying to argue or insult others if they don't play the role I play because frankly I feel it's rude and pointless to do so.
But when it comes to a few points in your comment, I will try to explain my perspective . For example, your comment on, "The people that complain about ds used offensively are NOT the same that accept tunneling" So I believe you're saying that the people that get affected by DS offensively were not tunneling, which yes, I understand that. I also understand that it wouldn't be "offensive" if it were "defensive". If thats the point you believe I was trying to make in my post, I'm sorry it's come across that way as It is not my intention. I am aware that not everyone likes tunneling, and that not every killer tunnels, but it still happens so much to the point where the Devs felt comfortable enough to bring DS into the game years ago and to recently buff DS to bring it back.
So in my opinion, disregarding something that happens simply because not everyone does it, is wrong. If it happens often enough that an entire perk was created to deterr it, and then to buff it, then it happens enough to matter. I'm glad some don't play that way, I don't play that way either, but some do, and to ignore that is disingenious. This is why I don't believe it's a "gross and wrong generalization". The point of my post is that many people who are upset about DS being using in this way feel it is punishing someone that doesn't deserve it- which I understand, and agree that it isn't fun, but tunneling in itself feels like a punishment to someone that didn't deserve it either, but it is accepted as a valid playstyle, and that's why it feel hypocritical. I understand if you personally don't accept it as a valid playstyle, but enough do.
Your opinion stating, "Survivor can either have their cake of functional anti tunneling tools/perks or can justifiably complain about unfun strategies used against them, not both" I'm confused on your position. Are you saying that if they have access to anti-tunneling tools they can't complain about tunneling? Or are you saying that if they have unfun strats they can't complain about unfun strats? I'm unsure which you might've meant in your post, but I don't think that people aren't allowed to be annoyed about something regardless if they have a coutner to it or not. This goes for both sides as well, as there are unfun strats, perks, items, add-ons and various other things that can be annoying or frustrating for both sides to deal with, even if a counter exists. I believe most everything in the game has some kind of counter, but that doesn't mean you will always have access to it the moment you need it, so I don't understand why you feel like it's not allowed to be..upset about something you don't like? If your point in this is saying, "survivors can't be upset about tunneling because they have this DS they can use offensively now," then I would agree that if a person goes out of their way to use it offensively and then gets hooked because of it, then yes, I would agree they shouldn't say they were tunneled, because they weren't. But to say that survivors are not allowed to complain about tunneling at all because this DS exists, I don't agree with, as the only reason DS was created was in an attempt to counter tunneling in the first place.
Anyways, hope you have good games, if my post came across as disrespectful or invalidating know that is was not my intention, and that I'm simply offering up an opinon and the reasons why I have that opinion and that it's okay if we don't agree. GLIYN
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710237#Comment_3710237
More drivel from someone who obviously never really plays killer. All killers play the same, surv play requires mad skillz and even if you lose, it's only because the deck was stacked against you, right? GTFO with that nonsense. Most killers don't tunnel/camp/slug, and if you feel like they all do, it's probably a skill issue on your end.
As for the topic, honestly I don't care much so long as the survs can't advance objectives without deactivating DS. I have zero issue with DS in its current state.If I'm playing killer and the surv I just unhooked wants to waste their time trying to bait me (which is usually really obvious) just so they can get their DS off I'll gladly let them and as I chase someone else. If they're too persistent or bodyblock, I'll just put them on the ground and leave them there.
It's one of the cardinal rules of killer: don't chase people who obviously want to be chased.
And even if you successfully bait the killer into eating a DS, what have you gained? Unless it happens right away (like in cases where you're actually being tunneled), you're probably coming out on the wrong end of the time wasted equation. If you chase the killer around for 30+ seconds and get downed and DS them, you haven't done anything positive for yourself or your team. Or is wasting your own time just to justify filling a perk slot considered an "outplay" now?
Seems like when some survs waste half the match trailing chases around waiting for flashlight save opportunities they either don't get or botch. It only benefits the killer. To survs who chase the killer around after being unhooked trying to bait them into eating a DS, by all means keep doing it. Unless you're on my team, then knock that ######### off.
It shouldn't need to be said, but if the killer immediately chases you and no one else after you've been unhooked and you end up DSing them, the perk has done it's job, and in that case it helps your team.
I agree with your take on DS one hundred percent. I acknowledge it's annoying but I don't think it's unfair or should be nerfed. If people chose to use it more offensive than defensive, there is value but also a risk, which is good. Anyways thanks for giving your two cents! Good luck in the fog !
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710743#Comment_3710743
You just said “things that are blatantly unfair are deserving of a nerf”. That means this discussion has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not something is unfun for the other side, because “blatantly unfair” overrides that completely.
This argument has always been whether or not weaponizing DS is blatantly unfair, and deserving of a nerf.The entire point of my post was about the hypocrisy in comparing it to the acceptance of tunneling. Throughout our conversation we’ve discussed a few different things, but I think the root of it is a disagreement on what is fair/unfair. So I’m assuming what I said earlier about your position was correct, that you believe the value given from DS is “OP” or “blatantly unfair” when I spoke of things that do deserve a nerf.
I think we will have to respectfully agree to disagree then, because I don’t equate hooks that don’t respawn due to sabo, or the twins in PTB to be on the same level as this buff of DS. If that’s your position then unfortunately I’m not sure there’s more to say then agree to disagree. I do not consider the 2 seconds added to be blatantly unfair and deserving of a nerf. But thank you for the perspective, and I wish you luck in your future games. -
@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710678#Comment_3710678
I do agree with pretty much everything said there, but the one statement I disagree on is "one is accepted and the other is not".
Most killers I know here in the forums generally consider tunneling to be boring. A fair number consider it unnecessary and those that do tunnel and feel they need to to win tend to lament that other strategies available to killer have slowly been made weaker and weaker. I fall in the prior category; I don't think tunneling is necessary, and deem it to be a risky strategy that puts the game on a dice roll of depending on how well that specific survivor/team works around the tunnel, and isn't fun for anyone involved.
Decisive Strike being used offensively is in the same camp to me. I don't believe it is an optimal way to play, and just like tunneling is a dice roll. It CAN potentially win the survivors the game, but what it results in is a game where the whole game is decided by the 1vs1, and serves more to make the game bpring and frustrating more than anything else.
So I would not say that using DS offensively is unacceptable, you can do whatever you want with your perks and playstyle....but if you use DS offensively you are more often than not gonna hit killers who don't tend to tunnel, and are thus pushing for and breeding an unfun and lame game for everyone. If that killer then resorts to unfun and lame strategies in return, tunnelling you out and ruthlessly continuing that gameplan to kill everyone, it's kinda on you.
Yeah, I am in agreement on not being a fan of these types of strats and I myself don’t use them either. But I think until these type of strats become against the rules, it’s safe to say they will always have a place in the game. And I do agree that many people acknowledge tunneling isn’t fun, and perhaps even boring as you said, but in my opinion that doesn’t mean it still doesn’t happen. In fact, because DS was recently buffed, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that tunneling has been so popular that the Devs felt comfortable enough to bring DS back. So I guess on that front we disagree about 1 being accepted and the other is not. Simply because I believe if tunneling wasn’t accepted as a viable strategy, it wouldn’t be used, and if it wasn’t used there would be no need for a perk like DS to even exist. So I think the idea of DS breeding a more unfun environment isn’t necessarily true, as DS is a symptom but not a cause. That unfun environment is the the reason DS was made to exist. Anyways, thank you for your perspective. :)
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710667#Comment_3710667
Statement 1) “Both sides of the game should be allowed to have things that the other side thinks is unfun”
Statement 2) “Nothing in the entire game should ever be nerfed, because the other side of the game has unfun things too”
There is a HUGE leap from statement 1 to statement 2.
Sorry if what I said came across to you that way, as that's not what I'm saying, let me try to clarify.
In regards to statement 2) I don't believe I ever talked about how "nothing should ever be nerfed", because I simply don't believe that statement. Things that are game breaking, or blatantly unfair, such as old sabo when hooks didn't respawn or the twins in PTB, I would consider those unfair and deserving of a nerf. What I think we both disagree on is the value this new DS buff gives- I do not believe is deserving of a nerf, and you do. Simply put I'm under the impression that you believe it is overpowered, and I do not. So it's less a conversation about "why people are upset about DS being used this way feels hypocritical", which is the point of my post, and more about, "DS shouldn't have been buffed," which I do disagree with.
In regards to statement 1) Breaking it down as basically as possible I said that if one side is allowed unfun things then the other side should as well. I do beleive this is fair. If one side has access to something strong, so should the other. If you disagree with this, then I suppose we simply disagree on a fundamental level, as I don't see how 1 side having access to something the other side does not, is fair or fun in any capacity.
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@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710702#Comment_3710702
You're right and I'm completely wrong there is no issue with any of those insanely strong perks that kill all perk variety for survivor. Time to go queue surv with OTR DH DS UB and cause minor inconveniences for some killer players.
To be fair, if these perks do become meta then perk variety wasn't killed, as only DH was in the top 10% of survivor perks in the last stats. I understand if it's not a meta you really wanna deal with, I feel that way about gen regression as it feels like it's been the meta since the cob/eruption days. But for your joy of the game I hope it's not something you'll have to deal with to often if it's something you really don't enjoy.
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@appleas said:
It's the same mindset with optimization. Even if a Survivor didn't get tunneled, not at least trying to bait the Killer into grabbing them after getting unhooked means the perk was essentially wasted.
Slugging a survivor after unhook will probably be more common and I can see it being the next thing complained about in a few months
I can undertand this. On one hand it makes sense to want to get value out of a perk no matter how risky the play, on the other it's a slippery slope when the only thing players think about is optimization over anything else, as it can lead to the most "sweatiest" games. Unfortunately though, I think this mentality has long been invovled in the game wether or not the buff to DS even happened. I would say that if tunneling wasn't so prevalent (which is killers trying to win as quickly as possible, so it's valid), then a perk like DS would have never even been conceptualized, let alone buffed recently. I said this in the post previous but I think it fits with this as wel, the changes to DS are an annoying "symptom" but not the "cause".
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@UndeddJester said:
The reason why Killers hate body blocking with DS, is those of us who don't like to tunnel, don't like to camp, don't like to play mean and try to make a game of it, end up being the ones that have to compromise our playstyle.
DS being used to body block, is effectively punishing the killer for NOT tunneling. Instead of taking 10s to down the DS user, eat the 5s stun, the become free to tunnel them out after that, it now takes up to 80s to eat that stun and costs the killer far more for effectively the same gain. So basically by being aggressive with DS, what you're doing us effectively saying "killers should tunnel to minimise the impact of DS as much as possible".
I don't know about you, but being forced to tunnel and camp out someone just because they MIGHT weaponise DS doesn't sound like a fun time. That said I don't think DS is a problem at the moment... but this is the concern with it being strong... it kinda encourages killers to play in a less fun way for everyone.
This is the common problem though isn't it? A mechanic is added to limit an unfun and obnoxious playstyle on one side, which in turn is used to create an obnoxious and unfun playstyle for the other side.
I think the last sentence really sums it up well and I agree with it. I'm not here to say that using DS offensively like this is fun. Many haved explained situations that it could be very frustrating to deal with. But the entire point of DS exsisting was to counter something that others also found very unfun and frustrating. Most people don't have an issue agreeing that DS is annoying and feels like a "punishment" to someone who didn't "deserve it", but some of the same people won't admit that a survivor being tunneled feels like a "punishment" and claim it doesn't matter if they "deserved" it or not because tunneling is accepted as a valid strategy.
It's hard for me to justify or sympathize almost because the reasons why using DS offensively is "bad" and why tunneling is "bad" are the same argument, but one is accepted and the other is not.
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@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710624#Comment_3710624
Are we going to pretend that tunneling is accepted as a valid tactic by the majority of the playerbase? I've received death threats and slurs for "tunneling" someone that was death hook for 2 mins before I found them again. A huge part of the playerbase does not like camping, slugging, or tunneling and will let you hear about it.
I'm sorry that happened to you, and I'm sorry you feel as if I'm "pretending". Many survivor mains view tunneling as toxic and unfair, and many killer mains view it as a viable tactic and strategy. Many people don't like tunneling or camping, and I would say everyone acknowledges that people don't like it, but they are still active and valid strats that are still defended because as it stands, is not against any kind of rules. I'm sure if you looked up some forum posts about someone complaining about being tunneled, you will find sympathizers but also those who explain that it is simply part of the game, and not to take it personally and to gg go next. It's safe to assume that the only reason DS recieved a buff recently is because tunneling hasn't stopped or has possibly increased, therefore even if the majority of the playerbase doesn't like it, it's still happening enough that the devs felt DS needed to come back into play. (Sorry had to repost this cause my comment didn't tag you for some reason)
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710507#Comment_3710507
Your argument is basically “X is fine, because the other side of the game has unfun things too”. This argument doesn’t work, because it can be used to justify almost everything….
“For the people + buckle up is fine, because tunneling exists”
“Background Player + flashbang is fine, because tunneling exists”
“Bully SWFs are fine, because tunneling exists”
Can we just flip this, and apply it to killers too?……”Pain res + Pop is fine, because voice comms exist”
“Sweating for the 4k is fine, because voice comms exist”
“Skull merchant is fine, because voice comms exist”
I don't disagree with this. I believe that both sides have access to things that are very unfun for the other. This isn't new in my opinion either as unfun playstyles, perk combinations etc. have been around since the beginning of the game. If you want to say that nothing either side feels unfun should exist entirely, then that's a different discussion I think. But my point is calling out the hypocrisy, which in order for it to be hypocritcal then both things you're comparing need to be the same, hence the "x is fine because y exists". It wouldn't be hypocritical if that wasn't the case. You could see my point as "justification" but DS was conceptualized in order to counter tunneling, it's an annoying symptom but not the cause. It's not justifying anything, it's the result of the current state of the game now and the way it was when the perk first came out.
I believe either both sides should have strong perks/items/addons etc. or neither should. I don't think this is an unfair take at all, I would argue that acknowledging unfun strats/perks/addons/items etc. on one side and then denying the other side those same things would be unfair.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Brings back memories. 2020 Interesting video about a knife. It is situations like these that push killer players to the dark side of the force. Just one of the situations of inappropriate use of a knife.
Wow, times have certainly changed alot since then, crazy to see. Many of the examples he gave are very common in the game now, even to the point about the hypothetical scenario in which when a gen pops every other gen on the map is disabled for x amount of time haha. And about Blight, how he was surprised to think people thought he was very strong competitvely, only for now days a Blight to have one of the highest running kill streaks in the game. Just shows how much the game can evolve in "little" time.
But yeah, I would say that because of the fact that the perk even exists, it never really pushed killer players to the "darkside". As the perk was only created to try and counter tunneling which while still a valid playstyle is as "darkside" a killer could be. I would explain it as an annoying "symptom" but not the "cause".
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@drsoontm said:
I see no problem with that. Several survivors have tried this tactic with me last night. I expected it as they weren't exactly subtle. I've answered in kind and every single of these teams were wiped out.
Most of these players expect the killer has no experience on how to deal with that or will get angry and lose focus. It makes me smile when I see them realize in real time I'm waiting for the right second to hit or to carry while still doing damage. And of course it's always nice to see the rage-quit on the hook afterward.
I had so much fun yesterday. 😁
I'm glad to see it hasn't bothered you. I think while having the potential to be annoying it isn't as "op" as many believe. It's nice to see someone that has experieneced it and knew it was manageable. Using DS offensively has its risks, as it should. Good luck in your future games!
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@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710507#Comment_3710507
DS even by itself is huge to get off and sure not everyone that uses it will be running entire builds, but the majority of my matches it's never just naked DS. 3s DS was still a top 10 perk for anyone who had the brain power to not use it in a corner of the map. We are back to square one on DS where m1 killers get rolled by it with 0 ability to play around it and the S tiers can power through it. There should never be scenarios where you're forced to tank anti tunnel perks without a say in it.
I guess I just disagree. As in the game right now, any killer can tunnel someone out, and that individual is forced without a say in it, unless they preemptively equip an anti-tunnel perk to try to prevent something that the killer doesn’t even need a perk for. If someone should never be forced to endure something (like tank an anti-tunnel perk) then I don’t see how someone should be forced to be tunneled. But that’s my point is that people don’t like how a DS could be given to someone that “didn’t deserve it”, but tunneling has never matter if the person “deserved it or not” because it’s accepted as a valid tactic/play style. It feels very one-sided and hard to justify.
I do think many M1s should get buffed, but I don’t think this means that every perk should always be weaker than an M1, as the game should be buffing those killers rather than nerfing perks. And I believe they’re headed in that direction with many killers getting buffs or QOL changes.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710233#Comment_3710233
That is actually a very good point. There have been things in the past, that were initially unintended but were then supported by the devs. For example looping, tunneling and 3genning (though not the hardcore 3gen play style). However, we know that these are now intended ways to play the game.
For DS however, we have not received such confirmation. Quite the opposite as DS was nerfed a few years back (patch 4.6.0) to deactivate on conspicuous actions. To be exact:
- Decisive Strike - Now deactivates when performing certain actions that are not part of evading the Killer
"[...] not part of evading the Killer." does sound like DS is supposed to be an anti tunnel perk only. However, in case they do consider bodyblocking with DS as an intended function of the perk it would be nice to have confirmation.
It’s very much a possibility the devs will “nerf” DS again if they see how it can be used more offensively than defensively and they aren’t happy with it. I do think the game is in a much different place then it used to be before DS was heavily nerfed, and I could see the benefit of introducing a type of play style like this that encourages teammates to try and defend one another more. I think it’s important to look at the current state of the game no matter how old a perk or item or ability may be, because it may not be able to keep up in todays game or it could be too oppressive for todays game.
Personally I am not a fan of play styles that go out of their way to.. “grief” someone for lack of a better term. (Yes they’re all just playing the game so I know it’s not actual griefing I just can’t think of a way to describe it right now).I don’t necessarily want to endorse these kind of plays, but it’s the hypocrisy that really irks me. I said it in a previous post so hopefully you don’t mind a copy and paste, but I feel my point of the post is explained decently here: “That’s what I don’t get as people are upset that this offensive DS could potentially “punish” a killer that didn’t “deserve” or “ask” for it, but tunneling isn’t seen as “punishing” and it doesn’t matter if the survivor “deserved” it or not because it is accepted as a valid playstyle. This is where it feels like a big double standard.”
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@LeFennecFox said:
It creates lose lose situations where you can't go after the unhooker and are punished for the "kind play". It's also a guarantee they're stacking DS with other nasty stuff like OTR/DH/UB. If you're playing a m1 killer it's very devastating with little you can do.
Example:
You can't find anyone and someone unhooks very close to you. The unhooked player tanks with OTR and extends the chase by 30s for the other player just with a protection hit. You can now decide to risk eating a 5s stun or continue chasing the unhooker. If you eat the stun the chase is reset and now you're at risk of eating a DH that also extends the chase another year. They can also just straight up take a down to buy even more time then unbreakable without needing anyone elses attention.
I’ve sortve explained my thoughts on using a worst case scenario as a justification for buffing or nerfing something in a previous reply, so I won’t go into a ton of detail here, but essentially I agree that if used correctly and with other perks, it can be a very good time waster, but I don’t agree that it is busted or broken or that the value it gives is so great that a game can’t still be winnable. I think people don’t look at DS as just DS and they tend to lump it with other perks that synergies well together to make something stronger. And while it may be annoying to deal with, it is not uncommon for either side even before the new DS buff came into play. Stacking 4 slow downs is a pretty common meta right now, and while it can be frustrating to deal with, is still possible to win with the right counter play.
As far as being “punished for the kind play” I struggle to understand this when tunneling often isn’t because someone did something wrong, it’s simply to be as efficient as possible and get out that 1 survivor to make it a 3v1 because it’s easier to win. Who from their perspective is like being “punished for playing the game”. That’s what I don’t get as people are upset that this offensive DS could potentially “punish” a killer that didn’t “deserve” or “ask” for it, but tunneling isn’t seen as “punishing” and it doesn’t matter if the survivor “deserved” it or not because it is accepted as a valid playstyle. This is where it feels like a big double standard.
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@moputopia said:
I kinda have to disagree with your original question. You're saying using DS agressively is considered toxic, compared to strategies like tunneling and slugging. But I feel like the community is usually very against these strats, both of the examples you mentioned are, from what I've seen, pretty frowned upon. Tunneling is usually seen as a cheap or toxic way to win, the anti-facecamp and anti-3-gen mechanics were introduced to address the frustration playerbase felt when dealing with these strats. And currently people are again asking for a basekit anti tunneling or slugging mechanic to be added. So I definitely don't think they're encouraged.
I can clarify a bit by what I mean. So with alot of players that have been playing a pretty substantial amount of time, things like slugging and tunneling are generally accepted as being unfun, but fair. You'll find just as many posts about people complaining about it as people defending it. I myself have experienced this because in the beginning I didn't understand how it was fair and questioned it and people explained that while it's acknowledged that it's not fun to go against, it's valid, and often times the quickest way to win for many killers.
Many survivor mains view tunneling as a cheap or toxic way to win, while many killer mains view it as a strategy or tool. Anti camping and the 3gen mechanics did get changed to provide less value as before, but they are still viable, and in some cases, still very successfull. Oftentimes if someone is upset about the fact they were tunneled or slugged and they post about it, people will tell you that it's nothing personal and to just gg go next. Many posts about how you're not responsible for anyone else's fun, and mindsets like that.
For the record, I'm not trying to encourage these kind of strats on either side, my entire post is essetially calling out the double standard. Many of those strats we have mentioned before have been used for years and are defended as valid strats even if unfun to face, while DS is not.
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@VomitMommy said:
I don't think it's toxic, but it can definetly be annoying. Normally even if they bodyblock I would slug them, if they were just unhooked. If they jump into locker and force it, then I am going to actually tunnel them for it.
But doing it is not really toxic in my opinion. They just want to use their perk, I am going to kill them for it, but they can try.I appreciate this take. I agree that it's unfun to play against, as many things in the game can be, but I don't think that means it's broken or shouldn't be accepted as a valid strat.
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@pseudechis said:
Because people misinterpret or over interpret what these things are for.
DS is just a 5 sec stun if downed again off hook, its not some specific "anti-tunnel" mechanic and can be used as a player sees fit.
Word of advice if leveraging a mechanic more aggressively rather than defensively, don't complain about being slugged or tunneled.
A counter to a player using DS to bait a killer is to slug, just like a counter to a player using built in BT to block a killer is to down and re-hook them, AKA tunnel.
Its just gameplay. If you have DS and you get chased off hook and jump in a locker then that's just using DS effectively. Same goes for taking protection hits knowing you have DS up your sleeve.
I can see some issues with built in BT/DS combined because endurance is there to help you escape but running DS gives you an incentive to body block for greater effect. Which is a lil crap for killer players who aren't trying to target the unhooked survivor.
Even with that very minor quibble, we are still a long way from the old days of DS/UB lose/lose endgame plays.
I agree with this. If a person goes out of their way to weaponize DS then slugging is the counter, and shouldn't be complained about. I just disagree that it can't be used in any way that someone wants. My reason for this being 3 genning, tunneling, etc. valid playstyles that may not have been intended to be used they way they have been but are still accepted. I believe this DS offensive tactic is just as valid as those. Good luck in your future matches!
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710354#Comment_3710354
I never meant to imply that you personally never face survivor teams like the one you described, I was trying to explain how most of the playerbase doesn't play as optimally and efficiently as possible (and that's on both "sides") which is why I didn't feel it was a justifiable reason to revert the buff. If you are facing builds like this constantly and always facing a SWF then that means you're a very good killer! :) So congratulations on the skill, I'm sorry if it feels like such a sweat match for you every time, but I've heard that once you get very high in MMR that games like that are just to be expected. I hope you get more chill matches in the future.
Also sorry I accidently sent that mesage without finishing my reply. But on the post about the offering you mentioned, absolutely i agree it wouldn't be fair. I think the differnece is I don't think that this new DS gives as much value as the example you gave. I think even if played as efficiently as possible with the aformentioned SWF you talked about, that the game is still not unwinnable or broken. I think we just disagree on the amount of value this perk gives.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710346#Comment_3710346
Its not the worst possible outcome. I'm tired of people telling me that "high level SWF kill squads are super rare" when i see them every other game. This is the kind of thing that happens to me multiple times in a single hour with teams exploiting the power of this perk and others along with discord.
I never meant to imply that you personally never face survivor teams like the one you described, I was trying to explain how most of the playerbase doesn't play as optimally and efficiently as possible (and that's on both "sides") which is why I didn't feel it was a justifiable reason to revert the buff. If you are facing builds like this constantly and always facing a SWF then that means you're a very good killer! :) So congratulations on the skill, I'm sorry if it feels like such a sweat match for you every time, but I've heard that once you get very high in MMR that games like that are just to be expected. I hope you get more chill matches in the future.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710345#Comment_3710345
Is it truly unreasonable that killers trying to spread hooks are a tad tired of these anti-tunnel perks being used offensively because survivors want constant value regardless?
I understand what you mean by this, as it doesn't feel "fair" to use this perk against a killer who wasn't trying to tunnel. I think the issue stems from the fact that many killers who do tunnel also don't do so because a certain survivor "deserved it" they just tunnel the first person they see at 5 gens and don't stop until they're dead. I could flip this around and say, "Is it truly unreasonable that survivors trying to play the game are tired of tunneling because killers want constant value regardless?" And while many do complain about tunneling, it is often met with a simple answer of, "It's nothing personal, just trying to win, gg go next" That's my entire point with the post. Both strats are valid, both are unfun to go against, but one is accepted while the other is not. That's where the double standard comes in.
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@Starrseed said:
i could not care less if you use ds as a weapon. pls jump into me stand in a door and force me to hit you but dont you dare to go in chat or the forum and whine like a little kid that the mean killer tunneld you or camped your butt when you where slugged for four minutes
I agree with this 100%
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710233#Comment_3710233
Because when used offensively it is too strong. When used to counter tunneling it is fine because it has a counter.
The people who use antitunnel perks "offensively" and use DS will do a few things.
Imagine you have a perk build of:
- DS
- OTR
- Dead hard
- Unbreakable
You hook them, then they get unhooked.
Now for the next 80 seconds, if you completely ignore them (in theory, the counter to anti-tunnel perks) you can't. The counter to OTR and DS, is to just not tunnel them, if you don't tunnel them, no problem. But, if they use the perks "offensively" then they have no effective counter.
Let's look at these as if there are no pallets or windows, and everyone just runs in a straight line.
What do you do when that unhooked survivor now forcably body blocks for someone else you are chasing. Lets say they get unhooked, you start chasing some other survivor, maybe you even hit them, then the guy who was unhooked just flies in (probably fully healed) and body blocks. Then you hit them, because obviously you do. Now you spend 2.7 seconds doing nothing and the original survivor gets 12 seconds of distance on you, and you keep going after them. Then, as you are about to hit them, the other person comes in and body blocks again, but they have OTR. Now that other survivor gains another 12 seconds of distance. Then they come in a THIRD time, and body block them and you down them.
Now, you have 2 choices:
- You pick up the guy you just downed,
- You ignore them and leave them on the ground.
If you leave them on the ground, they'll recover with unbreakable in about 20 seconds, meanwhile you are still chasing that other survivor for 12 of those seconds, you down them, 2.7 seconds, you pick them up, 3 seconds, you walk to a hook, 8 seconds, you hook them 1.5 seconds.
This means, without body blocking at all there would have been:
- 15.2 * 3 survivors = 45.6 seconds of generator progress
With this body blocking, now you have:
- 51.2 * 2 survivors = 102.4 seconds of generator progress.
And that is what you get for INTENTIONALLY GOING OUT OF YOUR WAY to NOT tunnel.
So what about the second option? Where you say, forget it, lets just tunnel them then if they want it so bad? Well, They land DS, stun you for 4 seconds (its 5, but the animation takes 1 second) gaining 21 seconds of distance. But now they also have dead hard, so you have to hit them again gaining another 18 seconds of distance. Then you can down them. This means you have
- (63 * 2 survivors) + 39 seconds * 1 survivor = 165 seconds of generator progress.
So, in typical game of DBD at high level, where GOOD teams of survivors will finish about 2-3 gens right around the time you land your first down (lets assume 2) That means they have 270 seconds worth of gen progression to do to win the game.
Without these perks being used offensively, they get 45.6 seconds of progress done, and the killer has another hook, and chances to have gen regression perks like Pop/pain res/ grim embrace to continue slowing the game down.
WITH these perks, even if you take the optimal solution of 100% completely ignoring them? Now survivors only have 170 seconds of progress left. So little that they could literally leave that guy on the hook and just power through gens to finish them up really quick, but certainly very quickly end the game. And if you do give in to the tunnel, they did 165 seconds of progress. which gives the survivors only 100 seconds left. Meaning that the game is probably going to be over in the next 30-45 seconds.
The point is. That when used defensively, these perks have an obvious counter, you just don't tunnel them. And you "keep an eye" on them, because if you want to tunnel, you can see when they touch a gen or do something, and know that they can safely be "tunneled". Or, you confidently know that they aren't working on gens, if they are worried you are going to tunnel them, but if used OFFENSIVELY these perks effectively have no counter, because you are pretty much screwed either way. Just a little less so if you decide to leave the person on the ground.
And the worst part of it? All 4 survivors can do this, this is only assuming A SINGLE survivor has these perks. Now imagine all 4 do, and you realize that you really don't stand a chance.
Thank you for the very in depth response. I know from other posts I've seen you in that you and I probably have some different perspectives on this game, so if my replies or responses feel disrespectful or belittling in any way, please know it is not my intention. I'm not trying to pick a fight or invalidate your opinions, and if need be I will be the first to say respectfully, agree to disagree with no hard feelings because I appreciate being exposed to different points of view.
That being said, your post breakdown does show how this can be very oppressive in the right hands, with the right perks, and the right survivor team. I can definitely see how this has potential to be a very frustrating time waster, and gives alot of value if played correctly. However I can't help but feel as if the example you picked was the worst possible outcome, and sort've writing off any other ways a game could go by saying "a typical game at high level with good teams", implying it will always go that way, using the worst case scenario as the base-line comparison. For example I can say that, "because nurse on midwich with something like starstruck, lethal, knockout and infectious fright exists, you have to balance an entire perk or game etc. around her", when of course we know that while god-tier nurse mains do exist, you likely aren't going to face one every single match, and those that play nurse likely won't have that level of skill, therefore it's unfair to try and use her as an example as to why something should or shouldn't happen. I believe there's plenty of items, perks, killers, add-ons, offerings, and playstyles that can easily seem "op" or unfair under specific circumstances that can vary anywhere from gen placement, maps, the other competitors perks etc.
What I agree with from your post is that if everyone played as efficiently in your message, with a person running that exact build, against a killer that might struggle to catch up compared to other killers, that it indeed does not feel fun to play against. I understand why people are uncomfortable with this sort've thing being possible to do in the game, but my issue stems from the fact that many other things that are uncomfortable and acknowledged as so aren't treated the same. Tunneling, 3 gens, camping, slugging, things like that can also be extremely unfun to play against, and extremely effective, and often do not need special cirumstances or perks to work very well, and can be done by anyone ranging from Trappers to Blights (although one will have a much easier time of doing so of course).
For clarification, I'm not saying these other playstyles shouldn't be allowed, as in the current state of the game, all of them are viable strats that have very high success rates and aren't against any kind of rules. I used to feel very slighted about being tunneled or slugged and was so confused how something so strong and unfun was allowed, but after spending time in the community and playing more I realized that they're simply strats that work, and to just move on to the next game. (This doesn't mean I don't have ideas to change some of these things) But I disagree with how readily accepted and often encouraged those other playstyles are in comparison to this one.
To sum it up as basically as I can, I don't agree that the value you get from the new DS gives more value then the other strategies I've listed above. Equal? I suppose if every single survivor has that build and uses it as efficiently as possible, then yes. But not more. I think compared to something like MFT, where you got alot of value for just getting injured, this is much different than that, because you're not on gens, you're putting yourself at risk to get hooked again, and if the killer slugs to counter two survivors could end up going down when only 1 was going to, and that's still 2 less people on gens, plus the other who is going to have to unhook. It's wasting the killers time, but at the cost of two others time as well (the person using the DS offensively and the other person being chased). I don't feel it's "free", if that makes sense.
Sorry for rambling, hopefully I've explained it clearly. Anyway thank you for your time and our reply!
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
It isn’t necessarily toxic. It’s more that it isn’t the intended use of the perk and puts killers in lose-lose situations that feel bad for them and sometimes aren’t really avoidable, and isn’t really fair. It’s why DS + UB is a strong and popular combo. Usually it’s when you’re either bodyblocking or otherwise interfering with the killer while they’re trying to chase someone else (and thus not tunneling). Even if they slug you and you get up with UB, that gives the other survivor more distance for not a lot of gen time lost, as long as the other survivors are busy. If you do it properly it is more than worth it in terms of efficiency. If they eat the DS instead, then you have a bunch of distance on the killer and that other survivor is long gone.
It’s always been something you could do, but the previous DS was a lot weaker (and wasn’t really good enough for actual anti-tunnel, 3 seconds was a joke in a lot of cases) so using it aggressively was a lot more risky because it was easier for the killer to punish the strategy (after all, you can’t use DS twice). Now it’s a lot safer again like it used to be before 6.1.0, so it essentially boils down to giving too much value for a strategy that isn’t difficult to do and doesn’t really involve any risk for the survivor. I have no problem with 5 second DS for actual anti-tunnel. The problem is it also punishes killers who are not tunneling.
I can understand where you’re coming from. I just still don’t see how it is any different than tunneling or slugging or 3 gens etc. You could say tunneling punishes the person being tunneled, but the reply to that is that it’s nothing personal and gg go next. You could say that slugging for the 4k is punishing the last 2 survivors who are forced into this cat and mouse game, using a slugged survivor as bait and left to bleed out for 4 minutes, but again I’ve seen the reply as it’s a valid strategy and slugging for the 4k is perfectly fine. Etc. My point is that this idea of something not being used as “intended” isn’t new, and when anti-face camping, base kit BT, when generator kicks became limited, people were very upset because they believed all were valid play styles that didn’t deserve to be changed, even if those ways to win were not intended to be used in that way. Those play styles are still strong and still defended and accepted to this day. But adding 2 seconds to the DS so it becomes viable as a defensive perk, and usable as an offensive perk, is not being accepted as a strategy at all. It feels like a double standard, and I don’t understand it.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
DS is intended to be an anti-tunnel perk, which is why the conspicuous action list was added. But the conspicuous action list isn't good enough, because many people are still weaponizing DS against killers that weren't trying to tunnel.
Using pre-nerfed Eruption to hold an extended 3 gen, was considered using a perk "wrong", which is why that perk got nerfed.
And the "feels like a strat that people don't like" statement doesn't work, because BHVR nerfed extended 3 gens and facecamping, and they were "strats that people don't like".
To this day 3-genning, tunneling, slugging, and proxy camping are still regarded as valid strats., which they are because there's no rules against it. The Devs have tried to make those strats less oppressive by adding some base-kit features, but people were very upset about those changes and some still are because they are/were deemed and accepted as valid playstyles, and despite the changes both strats can still be used effectively in certain hands. Most times when facing against playstyles like this, people say it's nothing personal, gg and go next. I don't understand why DS isn't being treated the same. Thanks for your perspective
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@GolbezGarlandGabrant said:
DS is an anti-tunnel perk and it punishes killers who don't have the intent to tunnel. You're going out of your way to bait the killer and make them feel bad.
I can understand it feeling bad, but the point of my post is more so, why are some strats considered okay and fair while others aren't? DS in question in comparison to tunneling. People acknowledge how bad it feels to get tunneled, not many deny that, just like I'm sure it feels bad to be baited with a DS and forced to take the hit. There's been posts for years about tunneling and how it feels "punishing", but most explain that it's not personal and to gg go next. Why isn't DS being treated the same?
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710212#Comment_3710212
Ohh, I'm more than happy eating a DS when I'm actually tunneling. Turn it up to 7 seconds. I have no issue with that. But get rid of bodyblocking with DS. That is not the intention behind it.
When I go out of my way not to tunnel and then I still have to deal with DS, that's when I have an issue and that's when I will tunnel. DS is supposed to be a last line of defense against a tunneling killer, not a tool to make you a meat shield for your team mate.
Since the DS buff, I have tunneled a lot more. If I have to go through your DS anyway, then I have absolutely no reason not to tunnel you. Quite the opposite because a DS puts me behind schedule, so it becomes harder for me to win.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710211#Comment_3710211
Yeah, right. I got outplayed when they mind gamed me into thinking it was safe to put them on a hook. I guess I'll just start slugging everyone until I have the whole team down?! Or do I need to bleed everyone out as well because they could outplay me by getting a kobe?
And for DH… Well, I guess pressing E to get to a pallet you otherwise wouldn't get to is an outplay now.
I think that's my question. The "it's not the intention". I don't think tunneling or holding 3 gens is the intention of the game either, which is why the devs have implemented some base kit things to try and deterr it. But both are still considered a valid playstyle, and are typically defended pretty strongly. I understand why they are, as it can be the easiest and most fastest way to win, but it feels like a double standard a little, and I'm trying to understand why it's not. Thanks for the reply, I see you in the forums alot. You always offer intersting perspectives :)
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Ignoring half of the entire playerbase is never really a good idea. Yes, I agree with you that Solo Q is terrible and it is supposed to be terrible. When it comes to Solo the odds are literally stacked against you, because this is the game the devs want. (with killer in power role). So survivors should acknowledge this disadvantage and realize that if they want to win more often then Solo is not the role for you. However, that doesn't mean that the people that do play Solo should just be straight up ignored or pushed aside simply because they're playing the game on its hardest mode.
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Yeah it's been happening to me alot too. Huntress is practically unbeatable to go against for me at the rate it lags. She gets shots through walls, over my head, etc. Especially with the new Elk cosmetic, because you can't hear the windup so there's no indication a hatchet is even flying at you lol. The hitboxes for huntress were always a little ridiculous but since the update the lag and rubber banding has just made facing her truly feel awful, which sucks cause I usually really enjoy it.
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YES this has happened to me too :( Feels awful at full health getting yanked out of a locker you didn't even intend to get into only for it to cost you an entire hook state and sometimes your life. I would love for this to be changed as well.