hermitkermit
hermitkermit
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@Roco45 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876310#Comment_3876310
Yea so maybe BHVR should do something about SWF instead of catering the entire game around them.
In your opinion why do you think the game is catered to SWF? Their survival rate is below 50%, and that includes even the top 5% of MMR players. If the game truly favored SWF, wouldn’t their survival rate be significantly higher? Isn’t that what catering implies?
SWF doesn’t get exclusive perks or items, SoloQ has access to the exact same things. The benefits players in SWF receive are external, not internal. They don’t get special BP incentives to play SWF over other roles, or special in-game cosmetics or things like that.
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Hmm.. 🤔 maybe some kind of shape shifting animal killer? Or creature that takes the shapes of many animals? It could be similar to Dracula changing forms, and that each offer different kinds of pressure. And the map could be an abandoned zoo!
Imagine shifting to a cheetah for speed, or a crow that interacts with all other crows on the map that works like some kind of built in aura reading for a Birds Eye view, and then shifting to a hyena to maul a survivor.
For a very simple answer I think a Jaws chapter would be really cool. The entire map could be half underwater, and all survivors are waist deep. Sharks are cool 🦈 -
@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879301#Comment_3879301
People are entitled to their opinions but at some point it becomes a case of yet another complaint. Too many and you risk none of the complaints being addressed because why bother when it appears nothing will make you happy? In agree the body blocking warrants complaint (although I'm not sure why they didn't wiggle, maybe the killer thought they were afk so wouldn't mind if the game was dragged out) but I don't agree with bringing perfectly fine tactics like slugging, camping, and tunneling into it. It's like me playing call of duty then saying I don't this game, I don't like how people can kill me from a distance, I don't like how it's real time combat, I don't like the 3D maps and list a load things that make it what it is. Changing it would make it a top down, rouge like, turn based, sword fighting game.
My point is, this is the game we choose to play. Choosing to play a game where 1 in 10 matches has any GamePlay. If you don't like it fine, why continue to play? So many survivors say it's boring when killers do certain things. but the objective of the survivor is to sit on a gen and do the occasional skill check and chases are people going in circles around the killer and hopping from pallet to pallet. but that's the role people choose to play and then complain when they lose and blame the killer and whatever tactic that caused them to lose (slugging, tunneling, even perks like noed or a particular killer)
I get the concern that too much complaining could lead to being ignored, but complaints are feedback, and we have seen the opposite effect with DBD. Changes like reworking Distoriton or TOTH happened because of complaints. The devs decide whats worth addressing, but dismissing all criticism because it exists would mean no balance changes ever happen.
You’re free to defend tunneling, camping, and slugging, but others are just as free to criticize them. Saying “it exists, so don’t complain” means no one could ever push for balance in any aspect of the game simply because it already exists. And things that have existed can and have changed, from small details to decreasing weapon swipe animation time to adding anti-camp features. Changes are not exclusive to new additions— anything can be changed, even the bloodweb and skin customizations.Live service games need feedback to evolve. DBD is constantly changing which means there will always be new complaints. If it were a full purchase game like Fallout New Vegas, or Red Dead Redemption or Resident Evil, complaints wouldn’t make as much of an impact because what’s done is done, those aren’t live service games where your input can change entire game mechanics. Games like DBD, Destiny 2, Marvel Rivals all are constantly updated, and expecting players to accept every change without question or opinion isn’t realistic. “If you don’t like it, dont play” is how games die. People give feedback because they want to keep playing, not because they want to quit.
At the end of the day, DBD is a game that evolves through player feedback—both positive and negative. Dismissing criticism with “that’s just how the game is” ignores that many past changes, even ones you may or may not agree with, came from similar complaints. The Devs absolutely do take the community’s words and opinions into consideration, and we have seen the results of those changes in many aspects of the game.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
Maybe the issue is the survivor role isn't for you? Killers can't slug, tunnel, camp, people hate noed, people hate nurse, blight. People complain Myers is boring because he stalks and doesn't chase. People complain sitting on gens is boring and just want to loop/blind the killer but hate it when killer chases them twice in a row. People complain about literally anything, there is nothing a killer can do without people complaining.
Most of the time it sounds like people want a whole rework of the game and role of survivor which would basically be a different game to what dbd is.
Saying people complain about everything isnt an argument, it’s just a way to dismiss criticism without engaging with it. If we ignored all feedback just because complaints exist, no changes would ever be made to improve the game. And this mentality is absolutely not exclusive to one “side” there are many recent discussion posts about wanting to completely delete SWF all together or for players to receive penalties for play with friends. Everyone complains, because everyone has opinions.
Many killers before the current balance changes felt the same way many survivors do now—frustrated with their role, unable to enjoy playing, and feeling like they had no control. Thats why changes were made. If balance only matters when one role struggles but is dismissed when the other does, then the goal isnt balance, just bias.
Also, if the response to being body-blocked and slugged for 15 minutes is “maybe the game isnt for you,” then what does that say about what kind of experience people are expected to accept as normal? That is griefing, and I don’t believe it should be dismissed regardless of what role is doing it.
Many killers tunnel and slug, because it offers them more than playing for hooks does, which is why many feel it should not be discouraged. It’s not against the rules even though many acknowledge that it is universally unfun and that it does massively tip the scales which is why it’s so effective. Essentially, why should killers make the game harder for themselves by not playing this way? That same exact logic can be applied to SoloQ and SWF. Many killers struggle against SWF, and also acknowledge that it massively tips the scales, and can be very unfun to face. And as stated earlier many want nerfs or ability to SWF to be removed from the game, even though just like tunneling and slugging it is not against the rules to SWF. But what incentive do survivors have over playing SoloQ instead of SWF? What incentives do killers have over hooks instead of kills? Currently none.
No matter which role you or I or anyone prefers— Justifying griefing like this and ignoring majority of frustrations, only pushes the game to a more competitive and stressful place because there is becoming less and less reasons for killers to hook and less and less reasons for survivors to play solo. And both of those are the root of most frustrations for both roles of the game.
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Very interesting experiment. Thanks for posting! (Also very neat trick with the SM Gideon's hole)
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Custom killer AI bots to help with practicing against and learning the correct counter play to all killers! This already exists as a tool for killers for survivor bots and survivors would benefit greatly if they had access to the same kind of tool!
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It was endgame on Lerys against a Michael. A Yun Jin was hooked, 2nd stage. I didn’t want to leave her behind even though I was the only one left alive. Made a break for it but I didn’t make it in time unfortunately and I got downed. For reasons unknown to me he started repeatedly hitting me on hook and nodding and then leaves out of the radius for anti camp and just nods that way. But it was my first hook of the match, and I tried my 3. And on the second one, I kobed, and he immediately hit me off endurance. I raced to her, but I ducked into one of the hospital rooms and watched as he left to check the hook, the hook was too far from the exit, I wouldnt have been able to ensure she got out or myself and it might’ve been a 4k. So instead I raced to the exit gate. She dies as I’m halfway through the gate and I know he is heading right for me. I can hear the terror radius as the bar increases! I am panicking and praying to the entity and then the gates open, just as his nightgown whips around the corner I catch a glimpse of his glistening thigh and strategically placed black undies. I sprint with my bleeding body to the ominous field with the campfire in the distance, clenching my buttcheeks in anticipation. The knife swished through the air— and then I fall down….into the exit. I crawl my way to freedom, the lone survivor of a brutal match.
Its one of my favorites , not because I escaped but because of the feelings that it has. Nothing quite gets my blood pumping like knowing there is nobody else in the trial and if you go down you stay down. It’s the most stressful the game gets for me is at the exit gate injured, alone in the game and you hear the terror radius. My hands shake by the time it’s over. I have to take a break after playing those because my heart is just a bongo.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875580#Comment_3875580
If a survivor is slugged, and the killer literally can't hook them, and the killer sees a survivor nearby… it is absolutely in their best interest to chase that survivor instead. And if that survivor runs away from the slugged survivor, then it's in the best interest for the killer to keep chasing them anyway.
It also doesn't answer the question of "why are we fixing the slugging problems that negatively affect survivors, but not fixing the slugging problems that negatively affect killers"?
If someone nearby is by the slug, absolutely it’s in the best interest to get them, But I said across the map. If you’re across the map then you can’t defend that slug, and will be picked up even in the current state of the game.But when it come to not being able to hook, I thought we discussed the slugging issues with killer being hook proximity or hooks in general, and that if there aren’t enough hooks for the slug that it’s a map issue and should 100% be addressed. If a killer can’t get a slug to a hook because of this, then the conversation should be about hook spacing, and hook count, to ensure every map has a hook nearby. I believe that’s why they ensured that hooks would respawn even after death of survivors, to ensure there would be no dead hook zones.
If the issue is that killers can’t get to a hook then it has nothing to do with slugging or slugging perks or slugging perk mechanics and everything to do with map layout, and hook placement.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875523#Comment_3875523
If the killer is forced to slug, and literally can't hook the slugged survivor, then why is the killer being punished for leaving the slugged survivor?
There is no situation in which a killer is forced to slug and their best interest is to leave the slugged survivor to go across the map. It is in your best interest to defend the slug if you want to keep it a slug.
If you’re slugging because you can’t hook, staying near the slug keeps your pressure and ensures the survivor can’t recover quickly, the exact same way slugging works currently.
If you decide to leave, you’re intentionally giving up that pressure. That is your choice to leave. The proposed mechanic only introduces a risk to lose the slug if the slug is abaondoned, not the act of slugging itself.
This would only encourages strategy, not punishment.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875525#Comment_3875525
So, here's the thing. I quoted the wrong post. And now I can't edit the original. I BHVR'd myself.
Ah, haha no worries, it happens.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875170#Comment_3875170
No base kit/automatic pickups. Survivors DO NOT NEED another base kit second chance. Behavior has TRIED this and it was an awful idea. The only objectively correct solution is a give up/faster bleedout. That's literally it.
I think you may be mistaken. Nowhere in my suggestion did I suggest an automatic pickup. I’m actually against a basekit BT.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875451#Comment_3875451
If a killer is forced to slug, and they leave the slug, they get punished even though they literally can’t hook the survivor.
You don’t have to leave the slug. It’s your choice to leave the slug.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875339#Comment_3875339
Slugging isn't always the killer's choice, and you're punishing killers even if it wasn't their choice to slug.
I disagree that it is a punsihment, it is a risk. Every tool should have risks. Killers can still slug strategically but they won't benefit from leaving survivors slugged across the map for an extended period of time. If a killer is forced to slug its due to sabo or flashlight the recovery speed wouldn't change. This mechanic only triggers when leaving the slug completely unattended.
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He does have a substantial cool down with this. I do reccomend anticipating it when you loop, it can sometimes end in your favor, and if he used it jsut recently then you can rest assure it will be some time before he can use it again.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875245#Comment_3875245
Anti slugging solutions should be helping survivors when the slugging is the killer’s choice, and helping killers when the slugging is forced upon the killer.
You’re basically helping survivors, but doing absolutely nothing to help killers. That’s not fixing slugging for both sides of the game.This suggestion is entirely activated upon the killer's choice. I really don't see how making recovery speed increase with killers distance is any way abusable. If the killer stays to defend the slug, nothing changes. Killers don't currently need help to slug, the goal isn't to make slugging easier.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875170#Comment_3875170
What happens if the killer leaves a slugged survivor, because the survivor team literally forced the killer to slug, and the killer literally can’t get the survivor to a hook?How is your solution address that problem in a way that is fair for the killer role?
I believe you and I have discussed this before, but I am open to talking about it again.
The recovery speed based on proximity wouldn't trigger immediately after a survvior is slugged. Only after the killer leaves the proximity of the slugged survivor. If multiple survivors are slugged together, it doesn't activate, the mechanic already accounts for proximity between slugs (just like anti-face camping).The scenario where survivors completely prevent a killer from hooking someone due to hook proxmity or map hook spawns should not only be extremely rare, but I do think wouldn't be affected by my solution at all. If there is a corner in a map where you can't bring a survivor to a hook (this shouldn't ever be possible, and if it is it should be changed immediately and I would like to know which specific map because I am unaware of this) then it doesn't matter how fast they recover or not if they can't be brought to a hook.
If the killer does find themeslves in a scenario where no hook is reachable due to a map layout, my suggestion wouldn't change that outcome. If a killer can't get a survvior to a hook due to the map lacking hooks then wether that slugged survivors recovery speeds up or slows down, wouldn't change the outcome much because the problem isn't the mehcanics or perks it's the design/layout of the map and again, should never happen and should be changed immediately. I do believe if this was a very common occurence, where killers couldnt bring survivors to hooks because the map didn't have enough or they were spaced too far, we would be seeing many people complain about this (rightfully so). But in these discussions for slugging, it is not common for the reasoning being an inability to get to a hook. It's usually about the effort in slugging compared to hooking not being comparable when the results are the same, especially with slugging being able to deny perks from ever activating.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875170#Comment_3875170
It's an idea. But it wouldn't fix the issue of four minute bleed outs. Which is the biggest problem. I'd rather have something like basekit UB, and engineer some sort of basekit Blood Favour, so that killers can't slug until bleed out, but they can pick up survivors that have been downed in pallets.
I have no idea how to fine tune a system like that though. That would require a bit more time than I'm prepared to put in theorising. I'm just hoping BHVR has thought of something that I haven't.
That's true. My solution doesn't directly address four minute bleed outs. However I do think if the system were put in place, so survivor recovery was much faster, it would be much easier to ensure 4 man slugging wasn't as easy as it is now. If survivors are going against someone like Billy, Bubba, Blight, etc. very high mobility killers or insta down killers, then they shouldn't be grouped up together. And if they are, that is a mistake on their end, and I don't feel it's an issue if a killer should capitalize on that mistake. I don't agree with those same high mobility killers being able to slug the entire team despite the entire team adjusting their gameplay correctly when facing a high mobility killer, by being split up across the map. That is how I think a faster recovery would come in handy, as it's less time spent on the floor.
If the only issue you're concerned about is not the 4man slug but only being bled out for 4 minutes, then perhaps a bleed out button if the entire team is down for a collective amount of time. Enough time for an UB play, but once the window has passed, survivors have an option to simply bleed out faster.
My solution is more to prevent all 4 from being down more so than what to do once all 4 are down, as in my opinion if it comes with more risks it will be played less which will indirectly effect 4 min bleedouts overall beacuse it decreases the chances of the entire team being on the ground for those bleedouts to occur.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874782#Comment_3874782
Thats because the opinion that slugging is the problem is not correct. Slugging is fundamentally very similar to being hooked. Nearly identical really. Slugged survivors dont die in 3 downs and can move around. They still need someone to pick them up though just like a survivor needs someone to unhook them. So if the 2 things are so similar then what is it exactly about slugging that people dont like? Lets identify that problem and try to get that fixed instead of calling the entire mechanic bad. That is the opinion I have, and is exactly why I pushed some ideas for fixes to what I feel is the real underlying problem.
I am unhappy because I feel that the other person was engaging in bad faith which is why I am responding to you. Our opinions on the matter are not ones we are likely to be in complete agreement on and that's fine. Whats important is that you are not trying to push for something specifically because it will lead to an extremely favorable game state for the side you play, and instead are being honest, which is something I do appreciate. I can see right through a lot of BS and dont really enjoy wasting my time trying to explain things or argue with someone who has no interest in really being honest about what is being discussed. If people want to have a discussion and try to find real solutions to things that actually are sore spots or flat out problems then I will engage with those people in earnest.
Well, perhaps I should start by explaining my stance on slugging. I don't think it should be deleted from the game or eradicated by any means. I think it is an important tool, and it is a counter. It's a counter to flashlights and sabo. And because I'm not a fan of counters being perk dependent, I think slugging being a base-kit counter is a good thing, just like endurance off hook. So it sounds like we're in agreement that the entire mechanic is not bad. That being said, I do believe like any tool in the game it has the potential to be abused. I do have my own personal thoughts on a potential solution, as I'm sure you may, as well as many others.
But I do understand your overall point, and I do agree. It's difficult for many people to have discussions in regards to balance without it turning into an echo chamber of somewhat mob mentality. And while it is tiring and can sometimes be pointless to engage in, i believe it does display the passion in which an individual or a group of individuals feel about something. Of course, that doesn't always mean it's correct, but sometimes the people that scream the loudest are the ones who feel like nobody is listening. And again, it doesn't mean it's correct, maybe nobody it's becaue people are listening that there is no response. Situations are complex like that, and it should all be case by case.
From all you've said above, I am mostly in agreement. There's nothing really there that I disagree with except for maybe the opinion on slugging not being correct. Only because I believe that opinions are just that- opinions. And shouldn't be confused with fact. If someone has the opinion that something isn't fun, just because someone else thinks it is fun, doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. Both are as right as they are wrong, the reasoning for having those opinions can stem from fact, but even then people cherry pick if the facts don't align with their opinion. I think the essence of what I perceive to be your point is what I agree with, however. And I apprecite your honesty and respectful tone in explaining your perspective.
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@TieBreaker said:
Do you have any way to fix slugging without breaking the game? I haven't seen a single suggested fix that doesn't have massive issues with it.
Adding basekit UB makes it so you can just die on a pallet, and force the killer to chase another survivor that is nearby waiting to pallet save, then you can just get up for free.
Survivors getting moved to a 2v8 cage after a minute or so is also a bad fix, as it makes slugging survivors for a full minute mainstream gameplay. BHVR should be limiting how much time survivors spend unable to do anything, not encouraging it. One minute is better than four, but it's still a bad solution.
I get that being slugged is not fun. But how do you actually fix it without causing a bunch of other problems at the same time? Like it or not, this is a very difficult thing to fix.
Hello! I’m not the original poster but saw your question and I wanted to possibly discuss an idea for slugging with you. I want to preface by saying I am not of the opinion that slugging should be eradicated. I believe it needs to exist because it serves as a counter. Slugging is sometimes necessary when flashlights or sabo is in play. It’s a useful and important tool, but in my opinion just like any other tool in the game, it can be “abused” so to speak.
I think most people that want to discuss possible changes to slugging in good faith come to an agreement that the kind of slugging that’s problematic is full team slugs with intention of bleeding out. I have a suggestion that I think would make slugging like this still possible but more risky, and it doesn’t involve a base-kit UB. Making the slug proximity based.
For example, the Anti-Face Camp, it’s still possible to camp with it only you can’t blatantly be in the face, and the closer you get to the hooked survivor the faster the bar speeds up, and if other survivors are in proximity that bar progresses much slower. What if we take that same concept and put it to slugs (only reverse)? When a killer slugs a survivor, there is a radius around the slug. If the killer remains in that radius— nothing changes. This will allow a killer to defend a slug from a potential save. But if the killer leaves that radius of the slugged survivor, the survivors recovery bar speeds up. The farther away the killer gets, the faster the recovery bar speed fills. Now they will still need someone to pick them up at the end, it does not grant an automatic pick up like UB. But it makes for leaving the slug unattended more of a risk and discourages 4team slugging. If all the survivors are in the same place and happen to get slugged, this also doesn’t affect the killer. Because if one slug is near another the recovery bar will proceed as normal with no speed buff, so it is still a punishable mistake.
I believe this allows slugging to still remain as an important counter while discouraging full team slugging. Again, still possible but more risky, and I don’t believe is abusable because the killer is still in control of deciding to leave the slug or not. Much like the Anti-Face Camp, the killers proximity will determine if it ever comes into play, and does not work if another survivor is in the same radius.
Thoughts?
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Long for Survivor: My longest games tend to be full bleed out games, where the killer brings knockout. Because it already takes time to pick recover an injured survivor, but with knockout you can’t even see where they’re at so you’re constantly running around the map. Usually done by high mobility killers or exposed ones too (most recent was GF) so chaining those downs and trying to pick up means no gens get done. Everyone bled out eventually but it takes a lot of time. Truly my least favorite experience.
Long for Killer: Honestly they never really go on very long for me. Hatch “standoffs” can get long but in my experience it’s not that common for people to not at least try, and whenever I find one of the last 2 survivors I go after the one that isn’t working on gens, not the one that is.Short survivor: My shortest game was I think a Billy. We all spawned in a corner of the map as a group and he had lethal. It was a corner so no loops, no windows, no pallets. He came from the direction of the loop so you had no choice but to run away and well everyone was down.
Short killer: I’m not sure what got into their heads but I remember it was 3 Dwight’s (which kill me cause I looove Dwight) but they kept going for the unhook WAY too early. I was wraith so maybe they didn’t see me? But I would get maybe 10 seconds away from the hook, it’s right behind me, and they would unhook. I never tunnel, I always go for the unhooker, but because they just didn’t wait they started dropping like flies. I felt bad and left, deciding to go kick some gens but not a single gen was even started. So. Short game.
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
It was a good write-up. I respect that you focused on how to make winning feel better. I’d like to discuss the idea of making getting killed feel better.
In a game like Dbd, getting killed is part of the experience. But for some players it does seem like getting eliminated really bothers them. I’ve mentioned this concept to other forum users before but why not add a death token system?
Every time you die you get a “death token” or something. Ideally these death tokens would be used in some mini game to play in between rounds like food for a Dbd giga-pet. @hermitkermit Mentioned a mini pet Entity that you could feed between rounds.
This idea isn’t set in stone or anything. Death tokens could do anything. I just think that making dying an easier pill to swallow in game like this would go a very very long way.
Yes! I remember that conversation fondly. I think giving incentives such as special cosmetics, banners, icons, a lil entity pet or maybe even item skins or things like that as rewards for meeting achievements in matches is a great idea. Pushing the game towards a healthier overall experience where both roles are rewarded with more than just BP. It would be a shake up in the right direction I believe.
The game has so many small parts that make up each role, and currently those small parts seem overshadowed by the “win/lose condition” it should matter how someone wins not just if they win. Someone that hides all game and waits for hatch should not be rewarded more than someone who participated in chase and completed gens. Someone that doesn’t get a kill should still be rewarded for all the multiple hooks on multiple survivors they get. Right now the game feels like it doesn’t matter how well you did in the match, only the end result. It reminds me a bit from when I was a kid, the people that cheat on exams or homework always used that kind of mentality “it doesn’t matter how I get the answers, only that I get them” And in the current landscape of DBD, it fosters that kind of thinking, which is a shame because it puts so much more pressure on people and can take away the fun! Those individual parts should make more of an impact than they currently do.
…plus I really want a little pet entity crow 🫠🐦⬛
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@CLHL said:
What did you expect to would happen after adding 10 seconds to hook stages and nerfing absolutely all regression perks? Now give us base-kit unbreakable, I'm already warning you all that you're not going to like the consequences that this would bring. Killers are not going to magically stop wanting to win, they will do whatever it takes.
While reasons for things being done in the game can be debated and discussed exhaustively based on personal opinions, (as its a chicken and the egg scenario) I do agree that for every action there will be a reaction. And your opinion that this rise in tactics is a reaction of the action of perk changes and hook stage changes, may very well be true. That means that their will be a reaction to this action as well, and it's not unreasonable to assume that the current "go next" epidemic is one such reaction, in addition to pushing survivor players away from SoloQ, and more towards SWF, as there are less and less incentives to play Solo. You may be correct in your reasoning for things being the way they are because of the reasons you personaly believe, but by that own logic then consequences for this reaction should be expected. You may feel it that warnings were given before and they were ignored, resulting in the frustrating current game we see today, so it stands to reason we shouldn't ignore these warnings either. The game isn't on a scale, it's a cycle.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874758#Comment_3874758
But that IS the point im making. You do not get to decide what is and is not apaling. The killers are not doing anything wrong. They are playing the game. Just because they are not playing in a way you like does not make them a bad person or their behavior appalling.
I believe the point is that it’s all a matter of opinion. This forum is used to give opinions. Some to agree with, some to not. But just because the opinions are different doesn’t mean one is worth less than the other.
You are of the opinion that killers can play however they want, and that slugging is good for the game, and that hooking is not fun. That is your opinion, and it’s fine to have that opinion but it’s not fact. The tone you push sounds like you’re trying to imply that your opinion is right and other peoples opinions is wrong.
Now there comes an issue when everyone has separate opinions. If we all have different opinions, then how can we possibly move forward? Personally, I believe opinions that can be supported by facts to be much more reliable of a bigger picture. And also the majority of people. I may have a smoking problem, but I don’t believe it’s a problem, it’s my opinion that it isn’t. But everyone around me says it is, because they have all this evidence about smoking being bad for me. I can still have the opinion it isn’t, and keep smoking, but I am willingly ignoring a vast majority of other opinions, and also ignoring those facts alongside it. Which is allowed, of course. But it’s typically not what’s best in the long run.
Many opinions here are that slugging like this, and tunneling and the other things people talked about in this post, is that this isn’t good for the long run of the game. A lot of people aren’t having fun, and when people don’t have fun with a game many of them stop. These tactics also hurt SoloQ significantly more than SWF, which only pushes the game to be even more competitive because there will be less and less reasons to ever play Solo, and more reasons to play SWF, which many killers voice is the most stressful part of their role for them.
You can absolutely have the opinion that nothing should change. But others can have the opinion that things should. The stats support the opinion that killers are in a great spot right now. They win more than they lose, and in this kind of game it’s my opinion that’s how it should be. But on the other hand end of the spectrum if you need people to be okay with losing more than they win, then they need to have fun while doing it. And right now, many people aren’t.
Just like before this big shift change, before the big buffs to killer to ensure they all reached their kill count, before when killer felt awful, when survivors were way more powerful, and survivor queues were so long because people dreaded playing killer. The same thing is happening to the other role, and just like it mattered for killers to ensure they were enjoying the game it should matter survivors are also enjoying the game. You may have a different opinion that it doesn’t matter if they enjoy the game or not, and that’s fine, you are entitled to your opinion. But many other people do see the importance of both roles having incentive to play those roles, and enjoy them, and these pages and pages of discussion are people’s opinions on what is not enjoyable.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
It'd probably be an incredibly bad idea due to how dangerous the basement is, I don't think your idea would be particularly balanced, and having one generator that could count for two would also be exploitable. A couple of Survivors go down there with beefy toolboxes and you're 2 gens down in an instant.
However, it would make certain basement-related perks far batter. Monstrous Shrine, Territorial Imperative, Strength in Shadows and Wicked would get a major boost in usefulness. That would be interesting to see, at least.
I don't think I've seen a suggestion like yours on the forums, though, so points for novelty. Interesting things to consider, even if I don't think it should be added at all.
What if the basement gen could only be worked on by 1 person, and toolboxes/perks that help with gen speeds can’t be used on it? Those would add considerable downsides, along with it being in the basement, but no longer exploitable by SWF. Base game gen speed, only 1 person, no perks or tools to assist in its completion.
Could be a very interesting “comeback” option in games with only 3 survivors or so, giving them a better incentive to stick it out despite having lost 1 survivor to DC or Tunneling or what have you. High risk and high reward.
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@Interrupt_Vector said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873159#Comment_3873159
I find your post very interesting and you're clearly a person with an investigative and analytical attitude. I like that.
I asked myself the same question, also analyzed the general consensus and found that there is none. It's a lack of cohesive definition on a macro level since on the micro level the individual definitions do not align.
This is not exclusive to this specific term, but to the perception of Dead by Daylight in general, which is in my opinion a prime factor contributing to the current "disorderly" state of the community.
But to answer your question:
To me personally "Genrushing" is neither negative nor positive as it is a strategy that can be employed in order to achieve a goal. On a macro level the entire team of survivors knowingly has to participate in this strategy in order for there Genrush strategy to reach its maximum potential. On a Microlevel this means that Perks and Items which focus on maximizing this strategies potential must be chosen. It is also necessary to utilize these perks and items in a meaningful way to the best of ones ability to rush gens. In other words if I have the perks and hide in a corner, am I a genrusher?
Given that all survivors knowingly chose to utilize this strategy to whatever success, we can say that the gamestate is thus such, that the gens are getting rushed. From a killers perspective this is an apparent fact of the gamestate. Whether or not the survivors are successful depends on an incredibly complex set of circumstances.
Given the unpredictable nature of SoloQ, true genrushing in its maximum potential is probably exceptionally rare.
Here we could easily philosophize the nature of time, the experience of time and what "rushing" really means. And here, naturally you will again come to the conclusion that there is no clear definition.
The inherent difficulty in defining Genrushing lies in the overall loose definition of what Dead by Daylight is, as well as a myriad of ideas of what Dead by Daylight ought to be.
Personally, I play both sides equally, and I do believe that I have a strong grasp on the games fundamentals. The soloQ experience is very varied with games lasting from mere minutes to 25 minutes+. Mind you the the majority of my playtime both on Survivor and Killer is spent playing without any perks, addons and items.
From experience, the extreme cases of genrushing requires a coordinated swf and is in itself an impressive feat of teamwork that is nonetheless object to the knowledge and skill of the killer they are facing. If I can identify a genrush early and am successful in reading the other teams play style I am now faced with an incredible task of identifying or even creating weakspots.
If the execution of the survivor team is flawless, if I do not manage to capitalize on any mistakes or create weakspots, the defeat can feel overwhelming. I just got genrushed. What an experience, how can I counter it?
I feel a big part of this is the Map Design that can either favor killers or survivors in terms of available resources. On a resource heavy map, given those same survivors from above, the experience of my time rushing by will be a lot more intense than on maps that offer less in terms of defense for survivors.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply and for recognizing the effort I put into my question! It’s refreshing to see someone take a broad, layered approach to this topic. I completely agree that the lack of cohesive definitions, not just for “gen rushing” but for many concepts in the game creates confusion and contributes to the “disorderly” state of the community. It’s fascinating (and a bit frustrating) how much of the games terminology is subjective, seemingly shaped by individual experiences and perspectives which does create a kind of barrier almost because if you define it this way, and I define it that way, then everyone is right and everyone is wrong at the same time, so it’s absolutely no surprise why discourse and a lack of understanding and willingness to accept other points of view is seemingly so difficult for most in this community. And it feels all the more that all these terms aren’t even terms at all, because nobody can genuinely define them. Thats why for many concepts in this game, I try to go by the majority opinion, but I also understand the risk in that because obviously a bigger number doesn’t necessarily mean correct. I suppose it’s just a way to find some kind of commonality in what feels like completely random answers, but somehow that feels better?
I like and agree with your definition of gen rushing as a strategy that requires conscious, coordinated effort from all survivors, supported by specific perks and items. It highlights how difficult it is to achieve true gen rushing in SoloQ, where coordination is minimal or nonexistent. I also agree with your point about extreme cases of gen rushing being both rare and highly dependent on SWF teams who execute near-flawless teamwork.
Your perspective on killer is also compelling and understandable. The challenge of identifying and exploiting weak points in others gameplay can feel incredibly high stakes, and as you said, it’s made even more complicated by map design. Resource-heavy maps can completely change the tempo of a game, magnifying that sense of time slipping away too quickly. Honestly Maps I feel could make or break a killer, a perk, an entire match. Which I feel does bring into question the strength of some things in the game both for survivors and killers, if all it takes to nullify yourself or your opponent is a bad map.
I really find the experience of time and how it influences our perception very interesting as well. Like in the example of gen rushing. It’s a fascinating idea—how what feels like “rushing” to one player might not seem the same to another, depending on their role, build, or even expectations going into the match. Thats why I asked specific examples about someone’s definition of gen rushing because the answer can leave a lot of things not quite making sense. Some people feell that if hooks are not equivalent to gens then it is gen rushing— but that means that a killer could take 20 minutes to get a hook and if 2 gens got done within the 20 minutes it would still count as gen “rushing” to that person despite the actual real life time application that would suggest otherwise. Do you think this disconnect in perception contributes to the broader disagreements about game balance?
Lastly, your choice to play both sides without perks, add-one and things is impressive! It gives you a unique perspective on the game’s fundamentals that I feel few players probably have. Every now and then I will also play without anything equipped just to see if I’ve become to reliant on some kind of perk or add-on without realizing. I honestly believe perks themselves are relied on too heavily, and should enhance the gameplay but not dictate it. I think a mode of DBD that’s played where nobody has any perks or add ons or items would be very interesting, and would really help people notice if they lack the basic understanding of the game at its core without all the frilly stuff so to speak.
Thank you very much for your reply! It’s nice to meet you.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873159#Comment_3873159
Hi, thanks for the kind response. :)
I personally was not around when BNPs were instant, but I have played for some time and heard the horror stories. These days, I would define "genrushing" as either anything intended tactically to do generators extremely quickly (which is valid and strategic), or whenever multiple gens get done quickly in succession, often in chase, and usually one right after the other like bingbingbing. I don't consider number of hooks done beforehand to be part of the definition. Generally, anytime Survivors REALLY focus gens and are bringing stuff to facilitate that. It's a tactic, like how some slugging is a tactic or how some amount of gen control is a tactic. It's part of the game, and while it's annoying it is valid. It doesn't hurt any less to be stung by though especially when you get that rare team you simply can't really catch.While gens can no longer be instantly done and many changes to gens have occurred to fix this, I believe it is still possible in a neutered form, the same way that "bully squads" no longer holds the same weight but still can be present in a neutered form (see some of the common nuisance SWF builds like the wiggle-sabo or head on flashbang squads for example). Much of the teeth has been taken from genrushing as a tool, but it still remains a powerful tool in the Survivor arsenal and even I still tell my SWF to "rush gens" if the game starts to go south for us, meaning I want them to focus the gens as hard as they possibly can.
It's such a sad state that we have to thank people for being kind just for talking about a vidoegame haha but I do appreciate it (and I do understand it's unfortunately kind of rare on here to have polite conversations especially when people disagree) I see your perspective, and even though I don't necessarily agree as I belive gen-rushing, much like tunneling, has very strict 'requirements' I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question.
I won't discuss it further on this post, (only because it's not necessarily in line with the topic and I dont want to clog it up more than I already have haha) but perhaps on a different post on this specific topic or message or something we can talk more on it. Always looking for more perspectives to better understand other people. Have a good one, gliyn! :)
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872796#Comment_3872796
Commodius with a BNP Spool. Yes they do, I have used them in conjunction with a SWF.
I am sorry, but I am not accepting one-sided arguments as responses.Hello! Im not the original person you replied to, so my input may or may not be wanted, but the topic you’re discussing I actually am curious of your opinions/thoughts because I myself created a post somewhat long ago asking to define what Gen Rushing is. My main concern was that I had heard various different people call gen rushing various different things, sortve like how sometimes people say “tunneling” when it really wasn’t because tunneling does have a very specific definition.
When the term was originally coined it was back when the BNP was instant, a 4 man would come in with the exact same items/build dedicated completely for gens and they would complete then all in a sickening amount of time. It was so unfair that thankfully it was gutted, and it is no longer possible to do now what used to be done then when gen rushing was created as a term. (Changes for those perks, the BNP, and gen times for longer) But the term has still stuck around despite its qualifications of existence having not, and so I asked the community to help define what it was. The consensus was mainly “it’s dependent upon that person” as in it doesn’t have a specific definition as everyone defines it differently. Which to be honest with the way my brain works, found that to be an extremely difficult answer because it’s something generally regarded as negative, it has negative connotations, and is used as a justification for many other things, so not being able to have a definitive answer of what it is kinda drives me nuts lol.
So if you don’t mind sharing, what is your personal definition of gen-rushing? Is it simply if gens get done without a certain number of hooks being met regardless if any gen perks or toolboxes are present? Is it when a specific builds or items are brought in, regardless if its Solo? -
@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872613#Comment_3872613
In hindsight, it did seem I was contradicting your point, that's me giving a half answer... 😏
I think I agree with pretty much every point you've made. I suppose when I say "playing killer is the best way to learn", a more accurate assessment/statement would probably have been "a vital part of understanding survivor is understanding killer gameplay and motivations, as well as mechanics".
For example, I feel a lot of Survivors who have never played killer, look at things like tunneling and slugging as inexcusable problems with the game, and a decision a killer just makes at the detriment of survivor enjoyment... and that isn't true in a lot of cases. There are instances of it being forced by the killer undoubtedly, but more often it is the byproduct of an opportunity a survivor player has given the killer, and I think a player who plays both regularly looks at those same scenarios with a "if you make it profitable to do it, of course the killer is going to tunnel/slug". That's obviously one example, there are numerous others, but you get my point.
You do raise a point though that it perhaps shouldn't be a requirement to play killer to effectively learn survivor... and I realise now the framing of my previous point had an unintended "we don't need that, because there's gonna be this!" sound to it...
So to clean that up, I don't see the ability to play vs. killer bots (even those you don't have) in a custom game would be a bad thing to learn killer power/counter gameplay. Would be a great feature if done well... I suppose my only contention would be that I wouldn't put much faith in a bot being accurate enough to effectively learn said counterplay against a real player... which is not an indictment of BHVR, just an acknowledgement of how difficult that would be to do...
AI often has to effectively cheat in order to be effective, which is why the Nurse bot was cracked because she basically had permanent wall hack on you at all times (and survivor bots are the same).
So if it could be done... Aces! 😁🤘
Practical? 🤔😶
Ah, yes I better understand your point. And I am in agreement! While I don’t believe people should be forced to play either role, I absolutely do think everyone should at least try both roles in order to better understand the struggles and challenges each represent. Both roles being free does give us a rare opportunity to truly experience “if you were in my shoes” and I think it’s fairly obvious when people don’t take advantage of that opportunity because a blatant lack of empathy is usually displayed. Such as your examples of tunneling and slugging and how people in a mob-like mentality around it always being bad all the time and it how it shouldn’t be possible to do.
Personally, I dont want either slugging or tunneling to be completely removed from the game entirely, as they are sometimes unavoidable or necessary. I view them as tools, just like anything else, like pallets or perks. But what I do I believe is that there should be an equal amount of reward/risk when it comes to those tools, just like any other. What’s debatable about slugging and tunneling in contrast to perks or pallets is because these tools essentially are free in the sense that they don’t require any perk slots, nor do they rely on rng, and can be somewhat “spammed” (unlike perks with cooldown or pallets that have a one time use) and of course being that the counters to these tools do require perk slots, many perks of which are on paid characters. In my opinion, the ability to use those tools and the tools themselves are not balanced the same way other tools or tool requirements in the game are, which I think is the “core of the issue” so to speak. I do not support the total elimination of them.
Anyway, all that to say that I agree that if people would experience the struggles of both roles, instead of dismissing either of them by blatant bias or lack of empathy, it would help both roles better understand why things happen the way they do and could lead to more productive conversations on further adjustments with that knowledge in mind. ✌️
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872569#Comment_3872569
Well they are doing that thing where you can play as a killer for events and such, which should hopefully help address this somewhat…
I fundamentally believe the best way to learn survivor is to play killer. Knowing how the killers power works is the first major step to understanding the killer, and then knowing the killers limitations is the second… you get both so much quicker playing the killer than playing against them as survivor. After that it's practice and optimising movement, which is only earned playing vs. the killer, but you can make up a lot of ground just having knowledge.
I have a friend who holds the opinion that vast majority of killers are overpowered for numerous reasons, and I've exasperatingly explained to him again and again that he has never played killer, so he doesn't know what the killer can do, and importantly what the killer can't do, so of course he thinks they're overpowered.
I mean anyone who plays with me will tell you I'm a total goober, but even I am better than a lot of players with 3 times my hours simply because I can read the game and I know how most things work. It is a slippery slope though, because I see so many bad plays from survivors where they give the killer exactly what they want and then are suprised when the game runs away from them… I've many times said "What the hell are you doing!? Where are these idiots when I'm playing killer!?" xD
I understand your perspective and want to start by saying I respect it. Even if we don’t agree I don’t think that makes your knowledge or opinions any less valuable and I appreciate the discussion.
In my opinion, I don’t believe that playing one role automatically makes you good at the other. While playing both roles can certainly offer valuable insights (like learning basic killer mechanics as a survivor or understanding survivor strategies as a killer) the two roles present unique challenges and demand different skills. For example, looping as a survivor is will be different from looping as a killer, in one you’re running away and the other you are running towards, so you have to look at the resources around that loop differently depending on which role you’re playing. Watching how survivors loop or even playing killer can give you ideas, but successfully executing those strategies as either survivor or killer requires practice, muscle memory, and the ability to adapt under pressure. Simply put, knowledge alone isn’t enough—it’s a skill you need to build over time. (In my opinion)Another issue with relying on playing killer to improve as a survivor is the cost in both time and money. To fully understand a killer’s power and limitations, you need to not only purchase that killer but also spend time learning how to play them effectively. I feel this isn’t a reasonable expectation for everyone, especially for players who might not enjoy playing killer in the first place, and are only looking to learn how to practice against them and aren’t interested in the role overall.
And when compared, killers have access to survivor bots and survivor perks that they don’t need to personally own since perks aren’t locked behind paywalls for practice purposes. Offering killer bots for survivor practice would simply level the playing field by providing similar opportunities for survivors to learn and improve in my opinion.
I don’t personally feel players should be forced to play a role they don’t enjoy just to improve their experience on the other “side.” Which is why I think that killers having access to a resource like survivor bots is great, as they aren’t forced to practice a killer they aren’t familiar with in live games, and they can better understand survivor perks and perk combinations to prepare themselves to counter okay. Killer bots would allow survivors access to the same resource that killers already have. A resources that I personally think is very valuable. But I understand others may feel differently, and that’s okay! :)
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@beater15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/436929/congratulation-to-bhvr
What does tunneling have anything to do with the game mode? You're matched based on your MMR just like any other event.
Tunneling is more common in this game mode because the chances of running into Anti-Tunnel perks are significantly lower than standard games.m since people can’t pick their perks. Therefore more players take advantage of this and tunnel more often.
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@WolfePhD said:
All I really want is to go against a Pinhead and not have the game finish before the first generator pops. I am a veteran player but I could not explain to someone what his counter-play is on a basic level. Every time I go against a Pinhead, another player tends to quit/DC/suicide before the first generator in solo-queue. At that point, I’ve already joined the fodder to go next.
I don’t think the developers should inherently change characters because they are disliked, but there is something about him that causes people to not want to play the game … and it seems more than the usual.
I get what you mean. I’m a SoloQ main, so whenever I see pinhead in my games it usually goes 1 of 2 ways: everyone gets out aside from maybe 1 due to end game camping. Or 2: everyone is dead at like 4 gens.
I think SoloQ in general deserves much more grace than it receives, as it doesn’t make sense to continually dismiss its struggles if you prefer people to play it over SWF. You need there to be some kind of incentive to play Solo over SWF and right now there isn’t much of one. That being said I think a major reason why it’s so tough is because survivors have no way to practice against killers unless by chance. Killer can do custom matches with any survivor perk or item even if they do not own it themselves, giving them an opportunity to play against different perk combinations on any map they need practice on. It’s great. Survivors would benefit so much from the same kind of tools.
Pinhead is kind of rare so many people may not even know the counter play because they don’t see him often. Right now the game expects you to learn it through trial by fire and you never get to decide when those trials happen. It could be once every month or so which means it’s going to take you a very long time until you can comfortably perform counter play when you obtained not only knowledge of it but also the skill to pull it off.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872287#Comment_3872287
I don't know. I feel like DbD players just lack life experience in general. Play any game in real life in an annoying way and people aren't going to want to play with you. They're not going to play a different game. They're going to tell you to leave. This is no different.
I completely agree. I think this can only push the game in an even worse direction if people push to invalidate the SoloQ experience. Everyone acknowledges that SoloQ is bad, but there’s this expectation for players to just accept that it’s bad. While there are different ways to address why/how to fix it, the bottom line is that SoloQ has to be made appealing enough for people to want to keep playing it. Otherwise, the alternative is that fewer players will play Solo, and everyone will gravitate toward SWF.
We already see plenty of people on these forums saying they only play Survivor as part of an SWF, and that shift will just lead to more matches that killers dread. But this raises an important question: What incentive does a player have to choose SoloQ over SWF? Why should anyone opt for Solo when SWF is clearly the more optimal experience? The way the game has been evolving, it feels like it’s only pushing players further toward SWF due to the state of Solo, and that’s a dangerous path for overall balance.
We shoud want people to play Solo. Without it, the game becomes much more difficult to balance.
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@Interrupt_Vector said:
Oh no the killer in a game about killing people killed people.
To be honest you could use this as a justification for anything. "Oh no, the chef who serves food served food." But the food was raw.
The existence of a role doesn’t justify/excuse every action that can be taken within it.
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@TwinsMain2004 said:
the comments here are astounding
bro is just mildly annoyed on how good adren can be sometimes and yall are acting like he said it's the best perk in the game and doing whataboutism left and right with killer perks
one guy even said "Use Terminus 😎" like bro he didn't ask how to counter it or ask how to waste a perk slot
Yeah, it is a bit rampant in the community to respond this way. (I’ve been guilty myself) It can be difficult not to compare things in a game designed with counters for both “sides” I guess.
Honestly I sometimes have some trouble with identifying the correct way to answer/discuss things at times. Someone brings up “X” and they don’t like it but “X” needs to exist because of “Y” so then you’re either gonna start to bring up “Y” which could upset people because it wasn’t what they talked about but could be important to consider as it’s the bigger picture, or you could just only agree/disagree with the statement about “X” and not bring up anything about “Y” which does stay on topic and potentially prevents arguments but then you run the risk of the post being nothing but an echo chamber that provides no solutions.
Do you have any advice on how to differentiate between those two options and when it’s appropriate to use them? (I know theres a possibility you may not exactly want to engage In a discussion and simply wanted to make a comment on this post so if you this annoys you or you have no interest, I apologize and I will not bother you) -
@Mr_K said:
Blindness affects solos more than SWFs.
We take that to mean that blindness affecting solos is bad. Instead, it just show SWFs breaking another game mechanic.
Also, I find it odd people didn't know Empathy was a direct counter to this perk. But I guess I shouldn't be. Lack of empathy is normal in DBD.
I see what you did there. lol.
Yeah I’ve been using empathy for a really long time as I find it to be a reliable source of info. Especially since it’s a free perk. But yeah it’s nice to see the survivor in chase so I know where it’s happening, I can see their animation if they threw a pallet down, I can see them working on gens or which gate they’re on and can take body blocks if need be.
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It certainly doesn’t help how wishy washy the community can be about these kinds of topics. It was not long ago when the, “I am not responsible for your fun.” Mentality was preached by so many. Promoting selfish gameplay is not new. Unfortunately.
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I do understand what you mean. The core of it, and how it can be very frustrating. I think because its a "vs." game, those kind of comparisons just naturally worm their way into conversations, especially with a game full of intended counters. It can be difficult to talk about someone not liking "X" when "X" has to exist because of "Y". Or someone wanting "X" changed without acknowledging what it would do to "Y". I think there is definitely a blance there, but the game is kind of built around direct counters so it's important not to lose sight on the entire puzzle and not just focus on the singular piece.
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@TWS001 said:
Just played against a Spirit with the exact TT Knockout build. Was a nice easy 4 out! I've been running a build specially to counter it due to how often it's being run at the moment and it worked perfectly!
Inner Focus is the key, Unbreakable, Blast Mine and whatever exhaustion perk you want I guess. If you're on a gen when someone gets downed, you have to let go ASAP to counter Mind Breaker. Fortunetly Inner Focus lasts longer than Mind breaker so you see the killers aura. Even if they've moved away slightly, finding the downed person is pretty easy. If you've got downed you have Unbreakable. Once you've been downed you just have to use Inner Focus to stay away from the killer and keep gens ticking before you get the next rescue.
Blast Mine tells survivors what gens you're doing so if they've got any sense, when you are away from them picking up, the others have some sort of guide to keep gens going.
This build has worked pretty well every time I played against the Knockout build going around right now. Hopefully this all makes some sense!
I will add to this that Empathy I believe also helps to counter knockout. It reveals the aura of any survivor that is injured, through the entire map. (It’s one of my favorite perks I feel is very slept on, as you can get a lot of info! Things like where a chase is happening and when they use a pallet, or where an injured teammate is, it helps to take protection hits, and also it’s a free Claudette perk so it’s easily accessible) I’m not a fan of knockout, it’s my least favorite perk in the game. But I’m thankful for this build you suggested to try out. Thanks!
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@BuffDH said:
So you're dedicating an entire build just to sabotage the game for the survivors?
Glad you're not on my team.
Can I ask why you say this is sabotaging the game for survivors?
I’m a Solo Q survivor main but I can’t come to the same conclusion, so I’d like to know your perspective. I encourage people playing with new builds or perk combos. (Aside from maybe invocations, I’m not a fan of those lol)
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I don’t think this is toxic. Honestly that word gets thrown around at nearly everything so much that it’s really lost its meaning. When in doubt, the trusty ol’ dictionary can help! And toxic is defined as “very harmful or unpleasant in a pervasive or insidious way” and because every individual can have their own definition of each of those things, going by the majority is probably the best way to sort it out.
So if you’re doing something that the majority of people agree is harmful or unpleasant then yes, perhaps it is toxic. But sound notifications? I’ve never seen people be upset by this. Perks like infectious fright or scene partner are the most obnoxious of this kind but not very many people feel they should be eradicated from the game or anything, plus there are killers where sound is very impactful as well like the Dredge or Doc making you constantly scream. So it’s not like there aren’t any things that are comparable.
I wouldn’t worry about it! I can’t imagine many would prefer you bringing “meta” perks over a silly fun build like this.
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Personally, I don’t think people necessarily dislike complexity, I think the issue is more about how well that complexity is explained. BHVR has introduced several new game modes this year, each requiring players to adapt to new expecations and strategies. Both survivor and killer players have participated in these modes, so I don’t agree that one “side” is lazy or unwilling to learn.
Take Nurse, for example. Debatably most everyone (regardless of which “side” they’re on) agrees she is extremely powerful, and in skilled hands, she can be almost impossible to beat. Does this mean that players who choose not to dedicate themselves to mastering Nurse are lazy or unwilling to learn? Of course not. People choose to play what they enjoy, and there’s more to a game than just striving to be the absolute best, and not everyone has the time or the desire to dedicate that kind of energy to this specific character. The same logic applies to survivors. Survivors could become looping gods or masters of every killers counterplay, but that requirement of time is far greater for survivors than killers, simply because of the vast amount of kiler perks, add-ons, and powers, in comparison to survivor perks alone.
A killer can practice against the most complex survivor strategies in custom bot matches. Survivors on the other hand have no equivalent tool to practice against specific killers or killer perks. Add to that the frequent changes to perks, updated killer mechanics, and general balancing updates, and it becomes even harder for survivors to keep up.
MMR also complicates things. You could win 20 matches against a Wesker and have your MMR skyrocket, but if your next match is your very first against an Artist, youll still face that killer at a high skill level despite being a beginner against her. This creates a situation where survivors not only need an immense amount of knowledge across All killers but also the skill to execute that knowledge, and statistically most often with a mute, uncoordinated team in a game designed around collective punishment.
Complexity isn’t inherently bad, but it should be acknowledged that with higher complexity comes a higher demand for knowledge and skill to effectively be used successfully as a counter. That demand grows with every new killer added to the game, and it can get difficult to keep up especially when survivors have no effective way to practice counterplay outside of random matches or custom games with friends. Over time, this leads to a knowledge and skill gap that can feel overwhelming for survivors.
The goal shouldn't be to remove the need to learn— it should be to ensure all players have a fair shot at doing so.
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Knowing where things are or are not is valuable information. Just imagine playing killer without gen auras highlighted constantly. Could you still play the game effectively by just relying on good ol’ map sense without seeing where to look for gens and where not to? Sure! Would it be much more difficult for some people? Absolutely! That’s the value of WoO.
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This is genuinely upsetting. I can’t think of a single reason why cells shouldn’t be refunded. We’re constantly debating between using the stick or the carrot to balance things for survivors and killers. Maybe it’s time to apply that same logic between consumers and developers—because right now there’s certainly no carrot.
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@HolyDarky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866744#Comment_3866744
I read the part of the slugging questions in the survey too and then saw this topic and your sluggingfix suggestions. I'm just a little bit afraid that when the developers nerf slugging in the wrong way by punishing killers that after that something more evil will grow up. We had this in the past: Otzdarva made a video of how tunnling will become more popular due to different nerfs to playstyles and he was right. Then slugging became more common due to the fact that the developers nerfed tunnling and camping in the wrong direction - these two did need a nerf to make the game more fun, but it created a new issue. Therefore, I hope the developers will do the right solution for slugging by making hooking more rewarding because I agree that the game should be around hooking and that hookstages should be more rewarded than kills - going for different survivors and don't feel stupid when doing this. Introducing a new feature also has always the potential to be abused in the wrong way. However, I do agree that excessive slugging (like in a 2v1 situation where you slug for the 4K or let all four survivors bleed out to win and avoid lucky 4% or a hole build around slugging) should be limited or impossible and a hookreward won't fix it. But here - I think - it will be an already good step to nerf strong slugging perks like Knock Out and Thrid Seal. Giving survivors a quick communication wheel can also be helpful because slugging is stronger against SoloQ (e.g. one goes for the heal and not both or tell teammates what they should do since some players need a teamleader that tells them what to do to help the team). Same with showing teammates' perks to know if someone has Unbreakable and with a communication wheel if this one will use it. These things will also help in many other situations and make SoloQ much better - in my opinion.
From my experience, the reason why slugging became more popular in the second 2v8 was the generatorspeed change. Many players criticised it because it felt so bad to get punished for hooking by giving survivors a genspeed - the same for getting a genspeed nerf for completing generators. The main idea of the feature was good but badly implemented. The rescue option, on the other hand, was implemented to give survivors more interaction with the killers to encourage players to play more survivors. From my experience, it didn't happen that often - at least from my killer experience, but due to long qtimes I become always become a survivor main during this time. So it's interesting to hear that other players made the experience that the rescue options on the survivorside made slugging more common.
I do believe we are both on the same page when it comes to your entire first paragraph. I agree with the fear of them possibly over nerfing or over buffing mechanics like this as well, which is why I made a suggestion that I believe would be fair to both "sides" in the first place. It sounds like we are both in the same mindset that making hooking overall stronger, and more rewarding would be the best possible outcome for the game. I also agree to your mentions of changes to specific perks, and I am all for a quick communication wheel to Solo Q! Here's hoping that we see a future DBD like this!
When it comes to the 2v8 comment, I want to clairfy. So, the second version of 2v8, the one in which you are referring to with the genspeed change, I do agree with your points. I understood why killers slugged in that version to try and mitigate the generator bonus, and now they had flashlights/pallet saves possible to deal with, so it's very understandably why killers slugged in those situations, and it was required to do so during certain points.
What my example brought up wasn't that version of 2v8, but the one that came before it. In the version before that one, it was impossible to get saves at all. No pallet saves, or flashlight saves, because the killer would just stomp on a survivor and they would be immediatley teleported to a hook, they didn't have to pick up. Slugging is an important tactic because it serves as a counter to saves. But in that first 2v8, those saves were not possible, therefore you would expect slugging not to be common, because there was no reason to do so, but that was not the case. I am unsure how much it happened as BHVR hadn't released those stats, but it happened enough that they felt it was important to try and essentially offer a counter - to a counter. Slugging was popular in both the 1st 2v8, and the 2nd 2v8, but the 2nd 2v8 had those typical legitimate reasons to slug, while the 1st 2v8 did not.
In any case, I feel very much on the same page with you when it comes to many of your thoughts and feelings on the game. I want healthier, happier gameplay for everyone, and it seems you do too! So while It may have come across that i want to "punish" slugging, please know I am only talking about excessive slugging, not slugging to defend a slug. If any slugging changes happen, I want to ensure that it doesn't strip killers away from a counter they need, but also encourages slugging to be more effective as a counter rather than an entire playstyle/tactic.
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@HolyDarky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865993#Comment_3865993
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866260#Comment_3866260
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866267#Comment_3866267
One thing that I don't really like about your suggestion is the fact that you rather want to punish the killer for doing good/keep pressure. In my opinion, the changes the developers did made slugging so much common. Two/nearly three years ago we had no big slugging problem but then the developers increased the hooktimer and introduced many strong hookperks for survivors while nerfing hookperks for killers. Don't get me wrong, I don't like mindless slugging and bleeding out either (for that we need a different solution) but instead of punishing the killer for slugging pressure, the killer should be rewarded for hooking since this will already solve the slugging problem - like I said before nothing has change that made slugging stronger, hooking got weaker and that made slugging better. Some killers like Dredge or Oni get rewarded for hooking survivors and - I think - other killers should get the same reward like Deathslinger automatically reloads for hooking a survivor. A general killer buff after hooking a survivor like 5% haste + Undetectable for 10 seconds could encourage the killer to hook the survivor and leave the area to gofer a different survivor (camping and tunnling gets also fixed). The developers should also introduce more perks that reward the killers for hooking like Firends Till The End is one of the healthiest perks in the game because it rewards hooking and denies camping and tunnling by default. We need more perks like this one. Some perks should also get a rework or tweak and reward the killer for hooking like Coup de Gras based on hooks instead of finished generators or buff Furity Chase and make it work for every hook. On the other hand, strong slugging perks and strategies should get a nerf like Knock Out or Third Seal because they give killers an unfair advantage against SoloQ.
Overall, I think buffing and rewarding hooking will solve the extremes of slugging. In the end, it will still be an option or a strategy but these situations will be okay because they are examples that Mandy gave us (slugging for pressure, slugging because someone else is there ect.)
Hey, thanks for the reply!
I’d like to start this discussion off with actually agreeing with you for the most part, about incentivizing hooking over anything else. I 100% believe In this as well, and believe the game being centered around hooks or kills would make the game much more enjoyable for both “sides”. I’m been fairly vocal about this as well in some past discussions, and I agree that hooking should be prioritized, and there are multiple ideas and ways to accomplish that, but that is a different discussion.
My point in the solution being a proximity slugging mechanic is because there seems to be a chance that changes will be made to slugging overall, and I was simply responding to a very specific point made in the discussion. In a perfect world I think it would be great for DBD to aim for hooks over kills, but currently there has been no indication that those kind of changes are even being considered, unlike slugging.
And while I do believe that the overhaul of the game towards hooks would be the healthiest and best solution to many things, I don’t actually agree that it would simply solve excessive slugging. This is probably where we disagree (which is okay!)I think a good example of this was in the first iteration of 2v8, when saves were not possible, no sabo, no flashlights, hooks were all but guaranteed assuming you didn’t leave them on the ground for a long period of time. But as we know, that didn’t stop it from happening, and it happened so much that In The next iteration of 2v8, they added flashlights saves, pallet saves, and a base-kit unbreakable in an effort to discourage that kind of play.
I’m not using this as a way to say “killers just like to slug for no reason” but rather to highlight that if slugging is the path of least resistance, it will naturally be taken (same with tunneling) The goal shouldn’t just be to make hooks more rewarding than slugging—it should also be to ensure excessive slugging comes with more risk to discourage it. -
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866523#Comment_3866523
In my scenario, the killer isn't trying to slug everyone. They are in a situation where they are forced to slug. The killer literally doesn't have the option to hook the survivor while the teammate is nearby. Killers shouldn't be punished when they literally don't have the option to hook a survivor.
And I have the opinion that if survivors are slugged for 60 seconds, they should automatically be teleported to a 2v8 cage, somewhere random on the map. That fixes the survivor-sided problem of survivors being slugged for excessive amounts of time, AND fixes the killer-sided problem of being forced to slug survivors for excessive amounts of time.
I apologize if my explinations aren't very clear, as what you're describing does seem like it wouldn't effect my solution at all, but perhaps there is a miscommunication.
Your position (if I am understanding correctly) is that the killer shouldn't be punished when not having the option to hook with teammates nearby. And I agree with that, if the teammates are nearby and the killer is trying to stop the teammates from picking up, then the killer is nearby as well. They can't stop the teammates from picking up the slug if they themselves are not near the slug. This faster recovery only activates if the killer is far away, like across the map. In my opinoin, if a killer isn't trying to slug everyone then there is no reason for them to be halfway across the map. If you're trying to defend or secure the slug then you need to be by the slug, and this recovery wouldn't activate if you were nearby.
In any case, perhaps we end it here. I offered an Idea you disagree with, and that's completely fine. It's good to look at things from multiple perspectives, and I appreciate you sharing yours. Gliyn! :)
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866419#Comment_3866419
Defending against a save sometimes requires leaving the slugged survivor, especially if it is a low mobility M1 killer.
If a killer is forced to slug a survivor because a nearby teammate has a flashlight or toolbox, that teammate is obviously going to run away from the slugged survivor if the killer tries to chase them. You're basically saying killers should be punished if they chase after the teammate.
In this scenario, chasing after the teammate, even if it results in leaving the slugged survivor, is slugging for strategic reasons.
I understand what you’re saying, but I think we’re looking at different scenarios. If a killer is forced to slug a survivor because of any nearby teammates, that recovery speed does not activate. It only activates once the killer has left the slug entirely. The actual proximity range I am unsure about but using something like the anti camping feature is a possibility. If you are standing directly by the slug, this Is the equivalent of being away from the hook for anti-camp, which means It would never activate. If you are across the map, this is the equivalent of face camping, which, then it would activate. And again, it’s only for faster recovery, not a self pickup.
If you want to chase after the teammate, even if it means running across the map therefore leaving the slug unattended, there should be risk involved with that. And this still gives killer control, because they will decide if it is worth leaving the slug to try and slug someone else if they have ran far enough away to prompt the faster recovery. It gives a killer a choice if they would rather risk that slug getting up to try and get another down, or to walk back to the slug and secure the hook. Killer is still dominant in this scenario. You get to choose weather it is activated or not.
When it comes to your concerns as an M1 killer, slugging typically isn’t the best strategy regardless because of the lack of mobility. Certain killers do better with certain strategies and it’s the players choice to pick both the killer they use and the strategies they use for that killer. If you prefer to slug heavily then using a killer like Blight or Twins makes more sense. Trying to slug everyone as someone like Trapper is not going to be very effective, because that strategy doesn’t compliment his power and abilities. But that doesn’t mean that slugging itself should be made easier or that it is not deserving of some possible changes simply because some killers struggle with slugging more than others. The same reasons why certain perks or base kit suggestions that would greatly benefit Solo Q shouldn’t be added because of the power imbalance it could create in SWF.
I understand that you may have the opinion that slugging shouldn’t be touched at all, and that is a valid opinion to have as are everyone else’s. But clearly BHVR is looking into the possibility of making some changes in regards to slugging, so offering up ideas that don’t take away a killers ability to slug but making it more risky is a good place to start. My reply was directly a response to Mandy, who talked about the struggle to identify the distinction between slugging that is strategic vs. slugging for no reason. And I believe that using proximity is a valid way to make that distinction. -
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866267#Comment_3866267
Killers are sometimes forced to slug survivors, and your idea would punish killers when they are forced to slug a survivor.
Could you explain your concern further? With proximity-based recovery, there’s no punishment for slugging and defending against a save. If you down a survivor and stay nearby to prevent a flashlight or sabo play, nothing changes. The idea only speeds up the slugs recovery if the killer leaves the area entirely.
If you slug one survivor and then cross the map to down another, you’re no longer defending the slug, which is where the increased recovery would come into play. This doesn’t give survivors a free pick-up like base Unbreakable; they still need a teammate to revive them. But it makes slugging multiple survivors more risky, unless they’re all grouped together in which it being proximity based would mean it wouldn’t affect the killer at all anyway.
If your concern is that this punishes slugging the entire team, then yes—that’s the point. The goal is to discourage full-team slugging without removing the option to slug for pressure or strategic reasons. As Mandy mentioned, there’s a difference between tactical slugging and unnecessary slugging. My idea I believe does help with this.
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@Mandy said:
This is an interesting discussion, I think there has to be some distinction as well between slugging for pressure in a match, which most people don't seem to mind, and slugging for no reason - when you slug survivors at 5 gens or something. Also, you down someone, see someone hanging around with a flashlight, so you down them - one of them is naturally going to be slugged for some length of time…whatever "solution" there is to slugging has to take those factors into consideration (if there's even a solution for slugging).
@Yggleif I also remember those days, so you're not remembering incorrectly. It was either a straight up trade on the hook, or you needed a couple of survivors to be able to make a successful save.
What if proximity determined the type of slugging happening? When a survivor is downed and another waits nearby for a flashlight save, the killer typically stays close to defend the pick-up. You’ll check the surrounding area, hit the survivor with the flashlight who typically runs away injured, and then secure the down.
A possible solution is proximity-based recovery? If the killer stays within a certain range of the slug nothing changes—allowing them to defend the down as usual. But if the killer moves away, similar to the anti-camping mechanic, (but reverse because it’s not the closer you are it’s the farther you are) the slug’s recovery speeds up. The farther the killer is, the faster the survivor recovers, but only once the killer is outside a set distance.
This way, killers can still defend slugs against saves, but slugging the whole team now becomes harder and riskier, but still not impossible.
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I feel like a helpful perspective to look at this question with is about reliance. Tunneling is similar to relying on specific perks—if you can’t perform well without it, it may have become a crutch. Many perks on both “sides” can be used as tools for areas you find yourself lacking in. But if you become far too reliant on those tools, similar to an inability to secure wins without tunneling, it is likely holding you back from improving your individual skills.
Weaker killers add another layer of subjectivity. Choosing to play them is a decision, and if you find yourself struggling consistently with one and being forced to rely on certain perks or tactics to be successful with them, there’s always the option to switch to another with abilities that fit your natural strengths better. Take advantage of the variety.
Even some of the “weakest” killers are extremely deadly in the right hands, and those players didn’t get that way by relying on tunneling or perks to do so. The players that perform the best with their killers is because of dedication and intimate knowledge of how they work, not because of their reliance on anything other than their own personal skill. Similar to a survivor who can loop incredibly without any perks equipped at all.
Perks and tactics should enhance your gameplay, not define it.