gantes
gantes
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@Freki said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/938914#Comment_938914
if you don't want to, no one forces you to. if you desire a certain outcome you have to do what it takes. if you do not care then don't do it. You're trying to tell everyone they OWE you something when no one OWES you anything! If you don't want to pip up then you don't do much, or distract the killer for a bit while others do things. if you want to pip up then you do gens, totems, find the killer let him chase you. As I said before an AFK killer is much the same as if you do gens and never SEE the killer (can happen) and get out. you can still de-pip even if the killer is ACTIVE AND you ESCAPE!
Well, yes, if you log in a game you should play the game. It's not rocket science. It's not the same as doing the gens without encountering the killer, because no one logs in a multiplayer game to have a PVE experience. If you're actively hiding from the killer and doing gens, you're still playing the game. If there's no killer at all, you're not playing a multiplayer game.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
Why would they get suspended?
Maybe something IRL came up
I know i had a couple of afk matches cause someone rang the door or something
And that's why reasonable DC punishments in games generally involve people DCing multiple times.
If it's a one time thing, then OK. Life happens.
If it happens consistently, bring down the hammer.
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I honestly think the Clown would benefit a lot more from some sort of added map pressure to his kit.
His power simply forces prople to put pallets down early. Freddy's snares, which are just half his power, are better than the entirety of Clown's power. Since I don't think making his power better in chases is the way to go (except removing his self slow) I think he needs a second part to his power. Otherwise he'll always be boring, which is even worse than being bad.
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@Tr0g said:
Survivors can still do their objectives and escape. Free ez, fast bloodpoints. Run around the killer to get around 30k BP.
Also, AFKing is perfect when you lose to a toxic SWF team and all 4 of them are waiting at the exit gate to teabag you while you're taking a piss or making yourself a snack. They will seriously wait until it's almost the end of the game for the almighty teabag.
Who cares about depipping anyway? Lol.. Rank means nothing in this game.
That's a terrible argument. No one likes being forced to end a boring match because the killer afkd.
You can't be in favor of DC punishments and think afk'ing is fine without being a complete hypocrite.
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@Artyomich said:
Literally depiped because I escaped too fast and opened exit gates, So that's pretty cool. Why a survivor escaping or a killer finishing a match immediately isn't an automatic safety pip I don't know.
Anyway do these people get suspended? I heard people get suspended for disconnecting now.
What should happen is the pipping system getting updated so survivors never depip if they escape and killers never depip if they kill everyone.
Being punished for doing exactly what the game asks you to do is... something special.
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Stealth killers are popular because they take the onus of performing decent on a chase away from the killer
It's a lot easier to hit and run than it is to mindgame tiles and apply pressure in other ways.
If a killer player is good in chases there are a lot of way better killers.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/936117#Comment_936117
Okay then, so now that it’s almost universally agreed that Nurse base kit change stinks, why not change it? People are voicing their opinion.
As long as it's an adjustment and not a buff, just go through with it.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/936050#Comment_936050
Anti-fun by whose standards? Yours? Survivors? The reality is that people say something is not fun because they are losing to it. This doesn’t mean they should be acknowledged.
By the overwhelming majority of the playerbase's standards?
Every single reasonable person I know supported the inicial Legion changes because your skill mattered very little against them. Most reasonable people acknowledged Spirit needed some changes too. We're at a time when developers can listen to player feedback and tune their game accordingly. They're not gonna stop doing that just because you think people's opinions aren't valid.
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@EverflowingRiver said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/936050#Comment_936050
So if tomorrow everyone said that sprint burst needed to increase speed 5 fold or they will dc, the devs should do it? I don't think so. I'm not even angry bro so there is nothing to get over.
Love me some false equivalences!
The moment people start saying things like this is the moment I know they're no longer worth debating. So have a good night bud.
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@EverflowingRiver said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935997#Comment_935997
It was a very honest comparison. Maybe you don't understand sports. If I'm playing someone whose team has great three point shooters, I'm going to play different then if they are a team with a dominant big man.
It still doesn't change the fact that in most online multiplayer games that are a bit more similar to DBD, the devs do change things that are overly frustrating all the time. There's nothing wrong about that. It is, in fact, good game design.
Games are supposed to be fun. Anti-fun stuff gets changed all the time. Get over it.
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@EverflowingRiver said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935909#Comment_935909
So if I'm playing an NBA game and my opponent always plays as the Lakers or the Bucks, I should just complain about it until they nerf the teams? You missed my overall point. The Twitter and forum mobs should not dictate how changes are made. There is a difference between fixing a bug that is frustrating and simply playing an opponent you don't like.
That's a dishonest comparison and you know it. Nothing in an NBA game completely changes the way you have to play the game the way different killers do in DBD.
A more honest (and accurate) comparison is how devs on League of Legends shift power on champions from frustrating points to less frustrating points.And obviously nerf what deserves to be nerfed, like Spirit and Nurse did.
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I like it when a perk isn't universally strong. It creates more engaging gameplay.
BT is still good against stealth killers though. You just have to be more mindful of when you're unhooking. They can't remain stealthed forever.
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I can agree with that.
The perk has a cooldown and can easily be played around. Against an experienced killer, the survivor definitely earned it if they manage to time DH against a hit.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935890#Comment_935890
We don't know anything about the players actually playing her. With Freddy there is a lot of players while there is only a tiny amount of nurses I am only assuming. How do we know that the only nurses trying to play her now are experienced? And that paints even a darker picture. Experienced nurses not doing better than new Freddys. Don't know for sure unless a dev can give more specifics. We're both speculating.
Look at the data. There are more Nurses on red ranks than Hags, Bubbas, Doctors, Plagues, Clowns, Demos and Pigs. Are you telling me that there's a chance on Earth that there are more hardcore Nurse mains than players from any of these killers? Are you telling me that 5% of the killer playerbase in red ranks is constituted by hardcore Nurse mains?
They're most definitely not. Great Nurse players have always been a rare sight because of how difficult she is. So no, it's not only very experienced players who are playing her. So it's only natural that she has a lower kill rate.
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@WolfPad06 said:
I love how, when the community uses BHVR's own stats and data to make an argument about a killer/suvivor performance, there's the inevitable dev comment of "well stats are just that, there's a lot more that goes into it, don't take it too seriously".
Now we get another dev using stats, and only stats (barely a months worth, at that), to basically conclude a killer deemed unfun and ineffective by those who play them most, to have ACTUALLY received a buff! And here everyone who got to test the changes and found them detrimental thought they were nerfs! Silly us, what we feel and experience is wrong when there's DATA!
Oh, but only some data. The data that supports dev's decisions. The other data we shouldn't read too much into.
I'm not liking theses mixed messages and double standards.
Thing is, you shouldn't analyze data without context. I don't understand how people can't grasp that.
The devs have context, we don't. Would it be nice to see more context in this post? Yes, it absolutely would. But that doesn't mean we can go and interpret the raw data to our heart's content without thinking about what it means.
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@EverflowingRiver said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935745#Comment_935745
I didn't miss anything bud. This penalties did not exist for prior nerfs and my point still stands that sore losers shouldn't determine who is buffed or nerfed.
Because one of the parts of game health is, indeed, evaluating things that frustrate people the most and adjusting such things. It's a basic concept on any game, not just DBD.
And it's very hard to implement DC penalties when 1. you don't have dedicated servers and 2. you have a buggy mess of a game that randomly kicks people out of matches or leaves them stuck in places for no good reason. Point 1 has been adressed, point 2 hasn't. It was clearly an awful time to implement DC penalties. Now it's a better time, so they're doing it. There's literally nothing inconsistent in the way they handled the DC fiasco, you sound just upset that stuff that shouldn't even be in the game in the first place got removed.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935703#Comment_935703
Under-performing in comparison to other killers considering her difficulty. She should be higher. Also, those numbers are the entire population while ignoring survivor skill.
This is why you see almost no nurses. There is no reason to spend numerous hours when your results is not necessarily going to be higher than other killers.
The second nerf was simply delayed because survivors being satisfied with nurse losing 1/3 of her basekit in 2016 eventually forgot that and the noise became louder and louder until they had to nerf her again. Remember, she originally could have 6 blinks and could move at normal movement speed. Now it is maxed at 2 blinks (the 3 blink addon is actually useless and doesn't count) with two penalties, and move slower than any other killer in the game. She can't even hit a survivor without blinking. She's lost about 66% of the original power! I haven't played every game out there, but I have never seen a character in any game nerfed that much before just because players got good with a character.
There is never a red rank survivor without DH. She can't bait that DH like other killers can so on top of her difficulty you have to hit every survivor 3 times! Nobody considered any of that when the nerf hammer was coming down.
Why on Earth should she be higher than 65% when Freddy, who is a powerful killer with a ridiculously easy learning curve, has 10% more?
If a difficult character in any game has the same win rate as a powerful easy character, they are overtuned. It's as simple as that.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935739#Comment_935739
Btw nurse is unfun to play as (Or against). can we delete her?
PS: this is just a joke, no real meanings :)
To be fair I hear that the Nurse is unfun to play now and it does make me sad. I know how that feels because of the Oni, He's still strong but significantly less fun.
I sure hope the devs manage to find a way to make Nurse (and also the Legion) more fun to play without messing with game health in the process.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935772#Comment_935772
On the stream, they directly referenced the numbers. How else are we supposed to interpret that?
On stream, they referenced the numbers, which suggests they were a factor.
On the forums, they stated the numbers weren't the only factor.
Therefore, we can interpret that the numbers were a factor, but far from the only one. Which only reinforces what I've been saying in this thread that we shouldn't analyze data without context. The devs have context, we don't necessarily have.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935722#Comment_935722
Um... the devs themselves said Spirit was over performing based on data. Please show me a mediocre Nurse who climbed without omega blink. Or is that argument based purely on speculation too?
It was an argument based both on observation and personal experience, since I did exactly that back when she was busted. I know it's anecdotal, but it's still better than claiming no one did that because you hadn't encountered that.
And they said they took the data into account, but they have many more parameters to make decisions like that. Please find a dev post where they claim to have used exclusively those numbers to say she was oveperforming.
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@EverflowingRiver said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935372#Comment_935372
I understand nerfs need to happen, but doesn't there need to be some line in the sand where survivors need to grow up and not DC if they don't get their way?
They're already testing DC penalties so that line is already there, you just missed it
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@OmegaXII said:
- Nurse Change: Because survivors had no fun playing against her because of no counterplay
- Spirit Change: Because survivors had no fun playing against her because of no counterplay
- Freddy Change: Because survivors had no fun holding m1 longer
- Deep Wound Change: Because survivors had no fun holding m1
- Upcoming Doctor Change: Because it's most annoying killer for survivors
What do you think is the next? Ruin? Moris? Legion? Pig?
I mean, ideally you slowly work both unfun and unbalanced stuff out of the game, don't you?
They also changed instaheals, Balanced Landing, reworked Badham...
The game is supposed to be fun for both sides, so there's no sense on keeping unfun stuff.
Legion's original iteration was an abomination and already got reworked, they're not touching Pig and I hope to God moris get the instaheal treatment.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935652#Comment_935652
You were never able to do well with Nurse if you were mediocre, barring omega blink.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935657#Comment_935657
This x10. People love using the data to say Spirit is over performing, but then ignore data when it comes to Nurse. Spoiler alert: people only use data when it supports their argument.
No one credible was using only that data to say Spirit was overperforming. Again, context matters. Using a dishonest argument to fight another dishonest argument doesn't really add anything to the discussion.
And yes, you could absolutely be mediocre with her and still do well. The fact that non Nurse players used her to climb (sometimes without Omega Blink or extra +range) was enough evidence. You're not supposed to do that well with a high skillcap killer without putting in the time and effort. If that happens, it means the killer is overtuned. Like she was.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935638#Comment_935638
Because the OP, which is a dev, was strictly looking at the killrate which was only fair to apply it to nurse as well. Nurse shouldn't be exception just because she is so hard to learn.
That's my whole complaint: she was ruined when the data didn't even exist. They strictly made a knee-jerk reaction to the loud collective voice of the survivors and some killers that didn't care about nurse. This happened in 2017 that left half of her addons useless because survivors could not handle the fact they couldn't pallet loop a killer for five gens as they were doing to Wraith, Hillbilly, and Trapper. Now we have a double-nerfed nurse that is so underperforming and with a handicap artificially in place so she doesn't outperform other killers such as Freddy, Spirit, Huntress, and Hillbilly to name a few of the better ones. Nurse, being the difficult killer she was, deserved the slightly higher killrate than the other killers. Before the nerf, she was only slightly higher at red ranks.
She's not underperforming by a long shot. She has 65% kill rate at red ranks. If any numbers are gonna matter, it's those ones. Even though they're not that important either.
And yes, she SHOULD be an exception when analyzing data because she's hard to learn. That's how any PVP game with data works. It's not that complex of a concept to grasp.
And honestly, if it was a "knee jerk reaction" it would've happened years ago because Nurse had been to strong for a long while. And no, you can't say survivors "can't adapt" to her. The game has been out for over 3 years. Telling people who've played this game for years to "just adapt" is exactly the same BS as telling killers to "just apply pressure" vs SWF in big maps. It's a dishonest argument. At the very least her add-ons had to be changed. A huge part of the playerbase also thought her base kit should be changed. and unless you happen to secretly be lowkey among the best killer players in the world or whatever, your opinion that people should "be better" is worth just as much as the opinion of people who thought she should be nerfed harder than she was.
This community would be a lot better if people were more willing to accept balance changes. Not everything is "nerf survivor, buff killer" yknow.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935443#Comment_935443
And what do you base her “doing well with” on? I have played against like 2 Nurses at red ranks on PC since her nerf.
That doesn't mean people can't do well with her. It just means she's not freelo anymore. Not everyone can play Nurse, and honestly the vibe I got from Nurse players here is that they prefer it that way. I get it, she's meant to be the high skill cap killer you have to dedicate your time to be good with. However, that comes with a price. She's inevitably gonna be hard to pick up and get results with if you don't put in the time and practice.
Beforehand you could be a mediocre Nurse and still get consistent 4ks. That's just wrong considering the difference between a mediocre, hell, even a good Nurse player from a great Nurse player.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935560#Comment_935560
I see what you are saying to an extent. However, you are missing something that nurse mains have been trying to say and are being ignored. Why spend a million hours learning nurse and have an UNFUN experience but not necessarily do any better than Freddy? Or Spirit? Huntress? Hillbilly?
Data from hardcore nurse mains is still not good data unless you compare it to hardcore survivor mains. And hardcore survivor mains in SWF against a hardcore nurse player. Neither was considered when nurse was thrown under the bus.
Yes, we have no data of hardcore killer or survivor means. All we have is red ranks data which means very little. Which is why you shouldn't have drawn any conclusions about Nurse balance from these numbers anyways.
And please notice I never talked about how fun she is to play - and neither did you beforehand. That's an entire separate discussion from balance. What you did was say a killer was underpowered based solely on data without context.
And why are you saying that they didn't consider that data when Nurse was changed? That data doesn't even exist in the first place. How on earth were they supposed to consider it?
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@UncannyLuck said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935560#Comment_935560
Yeah I think clown could use a little love based on the kill rates, and then everyone probably needs to be adjusted down if they're aiming for 2k average. Obviously fix the emblem system too so it doesn't feel like you've gotta 3k+ to rank up at red ranks
TBH I feel like anything between 60 and 70% can be healthy depending on how hard the killer is. I think the reason why it's consistently above 50% is because all survivors escaping is pretty rare, at least in my experience. It's easy for a killer to secure a single kill in the end game, so in my observations at least 4 kills is a far more common scenario than 4 escapes. So what would generally be a 50% average ends up being like 62,5% maybe? I feel like a number around that would be fine too.
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The other killers I can think of that have absolutely no map pressure have either an instadown (GF, Myers, Bubba), zone control (Trapper) or projectile attacks (Huntress, Plague is 50/50 on projectiles and pseudo instadown). Pig has some stealth and a good game slowdown. He has none of that, just a power that forces you to drop pallets early. Since most maps don't have a shortage of pallets, he just kinda gets screwed over.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935487#Comment_935487
Focusing on the nurse, she has the lowest killrate and requires serious buffing. Now we know why nurse was nerfed to begin with, twice I should add. Some actually got good with her. This completely puts all power in the survivors now because one thing is always never mentioned in balance decisions. What about a survivor getting good? Now put four together that know how to loop and juke and rush gens. A killer performance is always analyzed against the entire population but never the other way around. If the devs had done this, the nurse would have never been touched, AND maps would have immediately been redesigned to make the other killers viable.
You have said a lot of stuff but failed miserably at addressing my point.
You're looking at data without context. That's the point.
The Nurse is the type of killer who should NEVER have the same kill rate as easy-to-play killers, not on her current design. Not even at red ranks, no, because the skill threshold for getting at red ranks in this game is extremely low. If the Nurse has the same kill rate as easy yet powerful killers, it means that her skill cap isn't gating her performance properly. Because new Nurse players will perform poorly due to her difficulty, so if her kill rate is high it means the good Nurse players are roflstomping with her no matter what. That's how win rates work on every single PVP game. She's objectively the hardest killer in the game to start getting decent results with, and her ceiling is also arguably the highest.
Her kill rate at red ranks in November, according to the devs, was 65%, which is perfectly acceptable for a killer of her difficulty which was just brought in line after her changes. She should never, ever, under absolutely any circumstances have the same kill rate as someone like Freddy. Her skill cap should never allow that. That's just balancing 101 for any game.
The only way to fairly compare Nurse's kill rate to other killers is by taking data from hardcore Nurse mains, which can't be done sadly. And no, I don't mean anectodal evidence from Nurse mains who come complain in the forums because they can no longer 4K by existing. I mean actual, hard data.
What I was saying originally is that taking data without context would also make it seem like this game is killer sided. But the majority of the community agrees this isn't the case. This game isn't killer sided, Nurse did not fall into low tiers and data should not be interpreted without context. It's as simple as that.
EDIT: for reference, take the Clown's data to see what real weakness in comparison to other killers looks like. He's extremely easy to pick up for anyone who can play regular M1 killers, yet he has considerably lowest kill rate than even other basic killers that are considered weak like Trapper, Legion or Doctor.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935443#Comment_935443
Extremely well against survivors that don't know how to exploit the new nurse. The truth of the matter is, she has more counterplay now than any killer in the game, hence her extremely low killrates.
If we're taking kill rates to heart that much with little to no context, then we should agree that this game is overall killer sided too?
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935323#Comment_935323
So since the game has more pressing issues, just wash your hands of her and be done?
I mean, I would most definitely prioritize killers like Trapper and Clown and map redesigns over a killer that good players can still do extremely well with.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/935298#Comment_935298
"About the stance change, switching stances was part of the skill gap you had to learn to be a great Doctor player. Knowing when to switch, shock them then switch back to punishment was a testiment of the work you put in to be skillful with him at loops, getting rid of the stance change nerfs him in so many aspects as I explained in another reply."
This reads to me like you are trying to spin a buff to sound like a nerf.
Yeah I just feel that it's nitpicking at this point.
The stance switch actually made it harder to use your power effectively, and not in a good way. Shocking to stop loops is meant to be how Doctor ends chases. Having to switch stance made it more situational than it should be so he just ended up being "Man with shock stick" levels of loopable
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I, too, remember when people thought the Freddy rework was a nerf. And he's probably the single best cost/benefit killer in the game in terms of the effort you put in x the results you get.
We should probably wait before speculating things we know nothing about. We haven't even seen gameplay yet.
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But yeah, most reasonable people knew that the Legion changes were a net buff. No surprises here.
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Just a nitpick for everyone here: in every single PVP game I've played the hardest characters to play have the lowest win rates, even if they're good. In League of Legends for example there are characters who historically have abysmal win rate in regular play and still are disgustingly good in pro play.
If Nurse, with her high skill cap, had the same kill rate as a killer like Freddy who is absurdly easy, then we'd have a problem. She most definitely doesn't need a buff. The most that should be done for her is make her more accessible to increase her kill rate for lesser players while making her power level at a high level of play is unchanged, but that's a lot of work and the game has many more pressing issues.
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Legion is absolutely the best killer to rank up on because they just bamboozle the pip system.
They're also one of the worst for actually killing people.
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@Apple2o said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/928271#Comment_928271
Lol. Camping works against any team, of any skill level. You watch a "mean" streamer like pro vengeance camp and tunnel and it works for HUNDREDS of games in a row.
The only reason why it "works" is because survivors get bored. No one actually wants to sit on gens the entire game. Most survivors would rather risk throwing the game because people don't play videogames to get bored to death.
If they want to escape against you while you 1-hook someone, they will. I absolutely guarantee it.
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@Tr0g said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/928187#Comment_928187
I have to stay near my traps or they are useless. On small maps she has map pressure but what about large open maps like Swamp? Survivors literally run circles around you laughing cause there are barely any choke points and you can't move too far away from your traps.
You teleport 40 meters at base. With no add-ons. Almost twice your terror radius and out of Make Your Choice range. You're supposed to play half-map with her, not try to be everywhere at once.
@Apple2o said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/928226#Comment_928226
No, because most survivors are not going to sit around doing gens while their team dies like that. The entire team typically funnels into the trapped area and feeds even more downs. I 1 hook people regularly at rank 1 with her.
I'm talking about good survivors. You can get away with camping with every killer given the right team of potatoes, and there are plenty of those in red ranks. Bad survivors AND killers alike can climb if they play enough hours in this game.
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@Apple2o said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/928187#Comment_928187
That's too liable for them to get an unhook with urban evasion or flashlights. If you are in the nearby area, there is no way for them to make a save without triggering the traps. Ideally you distance the traps so that they eat one, take a hit, and if they bomb the hook after that they are going down because of the trap at the hook as well.
I usually try to 1 hook the first person I get with hag, because she is the best character in the game to do so without having to facecamp like leatherface.
If you are going for pips maybe let them unhook but I go for 4ks, not pips.
If you're 1 hooking people with a killer that already has a bad early game, good survivors should have popped 4 gens by the time they die.
The absolute best way to play her is by exploiting Make Your Choice, or at least pressuring multiple people after saves. If you've trapped properly, they may get rid of the hook trap with a flashlight but the moment you get in a chase your traps will get triggered.
Pressuring only one, at max 2 people at a time is rarely a good idea with any killer. Good survivors will destroy you if you're playing like that.
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You don't have to camp with her. That's the absolute LAST thing you should be doing.
Your traps do that for you.
I'm a Hag main. You need make your choice and traps near the hook. The rescuer will NEED to crouch walk. You'll have plenty of time to return to the hook and get an easy down.
She snowballs like crazy.
BBQ+Corrupt Intervention+STBFL+Make Your Choice is my build. Swap STBFL for Franklins in case of flashlights. She's absolutely terrifying. Her early game is weak but once you get momentum and establish dominance over a part of the map, the game is pretty much yours.
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Totem counter/dull totem cleanse notification, "being chased" indicator for every survivor, buff other solo-focused information perks the way Kindred was buffed so that they're worth using.
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I am much much much more scared of a team with 4 randoms but very efficient survivors than most SWF groups.
When I check their profiles and it's a 4-man I bring an insurance ebony mori in case they're too tryhard. Other than that, SWF is not a problem. The things 4 very efficient survivors can do in some maps is THE problem, just like some killers lacking options in certain scenarios.
(when I say some killers I mean the actual low tier killers. Anything Plague tier or above has plenty of options in most matches).
They're not gonna nerf SWF. They're not gonna blacklist comms. The ability to see who's in a group without checking profiles is important imo so you can take the appropriate precautions, but only if there's a timeout for excessive lobby dodging.
As killer, you have the gift of information before the game starts. Use it to your favor. Bring OP stuff if you think they're bringing OP stuff. Sometimes you misjudge and get cucked but I really don't think SWF is a problem. Let's be real, most of the times you lose it's because you misplayed or the map was bs or both. Not because people are smack talking each other on Discord.
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Ye I sure hope so.
Especially considering BT doesn't need to be touched at all.
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The question is, do we buff MoM?
I think the answer is no tbh. The effect is too strong to have it be meta.
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@FriendlyGuy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/924189#Comment_924189
Yes he wanted an "adjustment", that shows people when she's going in her power. I'm not an idiot. That's a nerf.
Play nurde on r1 against a sweaty swf, win, and tell me it feels like a win. Then we can talk further.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/924201#Comment_924201
A good way to adjust spirit would be making her harder to play. But instead of doing that they made the counterplay easier. And that's not good. I can crush solos with any killer too btw.
Solos<Killers<SWF=Nurse
The true underlying problem behind everything balance related is people ignoring the power of coms and building their opinion on matches against solos.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/924925#Comment_924925
I agree on the map design problem. But 86 oni wins against solos tell you nothing. 86 oni wins against swf are interesting.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/924953#Comment_924953
I got my own opinion, just to be clear. Every empirical killer facts people claim to got in this game are worthless, if they are not achieved against swf. That includes Day of the Wraith, otzdarvas trapper challenge, 50 oni 4ks in a row and so on.
Look what happened to oni. I also stated, that the BUG should be fixed, that let him flick 180°. The difference between the two of us is, that you stated he's op and not clearly explained, that he's op due to a bug.
If I play Nurse against a swf and win what's that gonna feel like?
I'm sorry but I fail to see the purpose on what you've just said.
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@JC316 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/925329#Comment_925329
And when the doors are open? You get free hits, but the time delay guarantees escape. Not a bug, with the right light, they can blind from outside your vision, even facing a wall. 2
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/925303#Comment_925303
And the best way of getting 3 hooks is to tunnel like your life depends on it, which survivors hate.
It's entirely possible to get 3 hooks on multiple survivors without tunnelling but go off
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@JC316 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/925260#Comment_925260
You're not getting that you should be at the mercy of the killer, not the other way around. Plenty would escape, because killers usually leave the hook hoping to get them all. However, if you want to camp, you should be able to secure at least one kill and not be at the mercy of a crutch perk like BT.
The proper balance would be NOED trumping BT. Bones were done, they you escape, if not, you die.
And you're not getting that proper game design involves both sides having a chance to fight back dire circumstances.
You get roflstomped all game long as killer, you can still get a kill if you play well.
You get hooked as survivor, there's a chance you get saved without being 1-hooked to death.
No one is entitled to anything except the right to put their skills at test and have a fair shot at winning. Survivors have the right to attempt an escape just as much as you have the right to try and kill them. Want a guaranteed kill? Hook them 3 times.
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@TAG said:
Context is important. Dying on hook to give teammate the hatch is okay. Dying on hook because you were downed in the first 30 seconds is not okay.
Yeah but sadly that's the type of mechanic that will always be abused.
Unless mods actively watch match replays it's pretty hard to tell apart someone who suicided on hook when the game was lost or to give a teammate hatch from someone who didn't press spacebar right for struggle (happens to the best of us sometimes) from people actually rage quitting.
I feel like forcing people who would DC to suicide on hook is already a step on the right direction since it buys survivors a bit more time and doesn't rob killers of their points/bbq stack.
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@JC316 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/925208#Comment_925208
If I catch you, no matter what else has happened in the game, I am absolutely entitled to that kill. You want a 4 man escape, don't get caught. I've had survivors use a pallet at the exact right time to escape, and I compliment them on the good play. Borrowed time is a crutch perk that allows you to be lazy
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/925214#Comment_925214
There are a few problems with your argument. Auto aim being one of them, body blocking is another, which is another problem of auto aim. You can't get two hits off in the unhook animation.
That flashlight 100% happened when I looked at the wall, and I'm not the only killer to have noticed that. If timed right, there is 0 chance to look up.
I play solo a lot. Easy points, easy pips, slightly more difficult escapes. About the only time I lose is if I have really bad teammates. Match I played last night, the idiot fast vaulted the first window he saw, which drew the killer right to me.
If that's how it worked, survivors hooked after the last gen is done would die instantly. That's not how the game works. Until the survivor is actually dead, you're entitled to no kills. Just like no survivor is entitled to escaping until they actively leave the game.
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@MysterTal said:
I'm a Killer Main who's been playing DBD since late 2016.
First of all, while bully squads do exist and I'm not suggesting the people in your first post's first example were just wholesome rascals, it's important for any aspiring Killer to learn to differentiate between getting outskilled/outplayed, having a Survivor use something that isn't really fair but also isn't really cheating against us and actual toxicity.
Borrowed Time, flashlights and pallets are things that exist in DBD in the same way that forks exist in the world outside of DBD - and in the same way, 99% of people's only use for forks is to have their dinner with them, but forks can be abused (someone could stab someone else with a fork).
Like our friend the fork, a Perk like Borrowed Time or an item like a flashlight are not inherently abusive and their use isn't automatically a toxic play.
Both of those things have very, very simple counters.
Flashlights can't happen when you're looking at a wall or when you're quick enough to look up/down and neither flashlight or pallet saves can happen if you just don't pick the Survivor up.
Borrowed Time is only a source of frustration for Killers who for some demented reason cannot understand that smacking the rescuer is far, far better than to wait for a Borrowed Time hit on the unhook. When someone goes to unhook in front of you, you smack them. When they complete the unhook animation you will have completed your attack cooldown animation and have been handed a free down.
And I'll tell you something more that you learn when you get past your first 1000 hours in DBD: As you progress in your career as a Killer you will learn to love flashlighters and overly altruistic SWFs!
They are 100% my favorite thing in DBD. I love flashlights! I can't get enough of them! A Survivor who just runs around after me with a flashlight, thirsty for a save (which they will absolutely never get! This isn't my first match, Claudette) is a breath of fresh air! That means all I have to do is bait the save attempt without actually picking the Survivor up and instead down the flashlighter as soon as they show themselves.
They're basically a 2-for-1 deal, flashlighters.
Overly altruistic SWF buddies bombing the hook before I even had a chance to complete the hooking animation? IS THIS MY BIRTHDAY!? That's almost 2-3 free downs waiting to happen, depending on what Killer I'm playing. Multiple people are going down or at least getting injured, guaranteed!
You see, the things you will learn to fear - actually fear - and hate seeing in a match, the things that will really, really frustrate you are not flashlights or Borrowed Time or Head On or teabagging or even broken god-loops... It's toolboxes, it's "Gens Before Friends", it's super-immersed stealthlords with Commodius toolboxes for whom this game is a gen repair simulator and their wet dream is to get 4 gens done in less than 3 minutes and sprint right out of the exit gates as soon as they can. People who reduce the game to about one fifth of what it's supposed to be.
To understand why Survivors play SWF at all (toxic or otherwise), only play Survivor yourself in solo queue for about 100 matches. By match 20 you will probably figure it out, though.
Yes. Dear god, this is it.
Please give me Neas with pink hair, flashlight clicking and teabagging. Lots of them. P3 Blendettes with toolboxes are the real nightmare in this game.
There's nothing worse than playing Yamaoka's, seeing someone's aura on BBQ, getting to the gen and finding absolutely nothing, then choosing to either waste a full minute looking for a Blendette in the bamboos or leaving knowing that gen will pop. I miss pink-haired Neas dearly every time that happens.