fogdonkey
fogdonkey
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@KerJuice said:
Do any of you tunnel console players out the game when you need to shift the momentum in your favor? No judgement will be passed.
Ever since the reset on the 13th, I’ve noticed a blatant pattern of killers with Lethal Pursuit tending to go after me first, if I’m the only console player. Then they usually tunnel me out. Then there are killers who don’t run LP, but they will go after me if we are in a group- even though I’m farthest away (no, not running into a dead zone) and they initially were targeting someone else. I’m also noticing killers breaking chase with PC survivors, and returning to the area they last saw me in, or believe I may be currently in. I just recently starting to observe this behavior in the past week, and within the last 24 hours it’s been pretty flagrant. It has got to the point where I don’t even let my teammates heal me, so that I can either immediately hide or run away from the area- in fear the killer will return. And sure enough, more than ever- they’ve been returning and looking for me. Very frustrating.
Any survivor mains who happen to come up on this thread, please do not chastise any killers who can attest to this. By them coming forward, it at least gives us confirmation that it’s hunting season on console players, and that we need to adjust accordingly when we are the only console in the lobby. Then again, I could just be paranoid or on a really bad streak of no luck…
After an unhook it can be in general a good idea to get out of there. Healing under the hook is like an invitation for tunneling.
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@fulltonon said:
Definitely, this is why this game is so swingy... it's pretty much either of 4k or 4e, not much in between.
If you are winning, you have more moment and become less stoppable, while you are losing, you can't do anything and there is no way to crutch.
Yeah, fully agree. And to fix this we need game mechanics that are proposed in the video. Good matchmaking alone can't fix it.
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@Pulsar said:
I actually agree with your sentiment and think you did a good job explaining it. As such, I'd like to ask some genuine questions from my notes that I took as I was watching your video.
Firstly, how do you explain the discrepancy in power between "healthy perks" and "unhealthy perks"?
Secondly, not a question. I agree that Killer perks should help more when the Killer is losing. I do not agree that they should do nothing when they are winning. You are playing well, ergo, you should be rewarded for it.
I'll make an example. Not saying this is balanced, just an example. Pop Goes the Weasel now does 50% gen damage upon your first hook, but if you have 6 hooks, it now only does 15% damage. It still helps you, but it's not overwhelmingly helping you.
Thanks for watching and for the comment.
Could you explain your question about "discrepancy in power" a bit more? I am not sure if I understand it correctly.
Yeah, that could be a way to design Pop. The issue is still that you need to get hooks to get something out of it. But on the other hand the most help comes from the first hooks then you get only diminishing rewards. So it gives most of the total help after only a few hooks and you don't get a lot more help if you are doing well and manage to get a lot of hooks.
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@Adaez said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2816383#Comment_2816383
That video needs more views,its very interesting.
Thanks, I am happy that you found it interesting. If you would leave a comment on the original forum post where I first published the video that would be great. I would be happy if it would get a bit more views.
@fogdonkey said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi14WB2629A
My opinion: A game is mainly fun (for both survivors and killers) if they know they have some chance of winning. Once it is obvious that one side has no chance of winning (escaping, sacrificing) the game loses a lot of fun in my opinion. That's when AFK, DC, hook suicides start to happen. It is also less fun for the winning side, because the challenge is gone.
Therefore I think the perks should be designed in a way which help the player if they are in a losing situation.
The perks should not help if the player is in a winning situation. It causes a self feeding loop: the player is doing well, the perks give even more help to the player, now the player is even better, the perks help even more, and so on. This self feeding loop can easily boost a player into a level when they are so powerful that basically the other side has no chance of winning. While the losing side is not getting any help, i.e. sinks even more.
A lot of killer perks are designed in a bad way, because they reward the killers when they are successful and offer no support when they are unsuccessful. Basically all the perks which reward killers for hooking/sacrificing/downing survivors. Why? If the killer is doing well because the survivor was hooked/downed, the killer gets even more reward. If the killer is doing badly and can't hook/down survivors, the killer gets absolutely no help. Examples of badly designed perks: pop goes the weasel, scourge hook pain resonance, surge, hex:plaything, dead man's switch.
Good killer perk design: All perks which help the killer when a gen is worked on, gen is finished, killer loses a chase, can't find survivors, survivors are rescued etc. Examples: bitter murmur, brutal strength, coup de grace, deadlock, discordance, enduring, iron maiden, tinkerer, beast of prey, fearmonger, make your choice, play with your food, etc.
Survivor perks are I think relatively healthy, because they help survivors when they are in a bad situation. But e.g. Adrenaline and Dark Sense are probably bad, because they help survivors when gens are done, i.e. when survivors are doing well.
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That's personal, for me killer didn't feel stressful.
Many killer perks don't help you if you are in a bad situation, that can be a problem as well.
https://youtu.be/xi14WB2629A -
@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2813200#Comment_2813200
Ok, but again that’s an “in your head” type problem. You’re the one forcing yourself to play that way.
With this approach I shouldn't even play DBD, because it is just in my head that I want to play.
Probably you just want to help, but I am not sure why you want to tell me how I can or cannot have fun.
Perks are a core part of the game, each DLC is advertised as "this is the new killer, this is the new survivor, and these are the new perks". But unless I grind hundreds of hours I don't have unconstrained access to the perks.
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@dugman said:
The notion that you need to have literally every perk on her or even every meta perk on her to enjoy playing her is all in your head. I intentionally prestige my killers just to reset their webs and play with what I get for instance and I still play regularly.
I get it, some people have a part of their brain that says they need to collect everything if there are things to collect. But it’s not actually necessary to do that to enjoy playing a killer.
I want the perks so that I am not limited when I play the game. If I decide that I want to try perk X on killer Y, I don't want to get into a situation when I need to grind out several hundred thousand or million Bloodpoints (based on luck) to be able to try that build.
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@SonicOffline said:
DLCs are literally selling you something to invest your time into. That's literally what DLCs are for. If you do not want to invest your time, then the DLC is not for you.
The devs themselves have acknowledged that the grind in this game is a big issue and it is not fun. So your arguments trying to validate the grind are countered by the devs themselves.
My post is about why the devs still didn't fix it.
(And just so you know: DLC just means downloadable content. DBD DLCs are created so that you can play new killers and survivors and get new perks.)
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2812658#Comment_2812658
28:40
We are working on a way to dramatically reduce this
Does sound like kind of a confirmation for me. Though they havent given a timeframe or anything more substantial than this.
So let's hope that some work is actually happening. Until I don't see some progress update etc. from a dev I just assume that no work is done on it.
And I would like to pay for DBD in the same way: "I already have an idea where to open a bank account".
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@Seanzu said:
If people wanted to use stretched res they would be already, I don't think anybody is going to start using it, lol.
Interesting to see what the next excuse will be when killers get mind gamed at a pallet or a loop, can't blame it on stretch res anymore.
There is already an excuse: subtle speed cheating.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2812602#Comment_2812602
Yeah, that sounds right. I was pretty sure the devs said "exponential" but couldn't remember for sure. Thanks. I couldn't check the video myself because I don't have audio at the moment.
Such a frustrating "soon™" response to lessening the grind.
Also they didn't confirm that they are working on a different solution. They just have a "different idea in mind". But they didn't say that they are actively working on it. It easily could be just another item on the end of some Todo list.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2812602#Comment_2812602
Yeah, that sounds right. I was pretty sure the devs said "exponential" but couldn't remember for sure. Thanks. I couldn't check the video myself because I don't have audio at the moment.
Such a frustrating "soon™" response to lessening the grind.
It is not growing exponentially, it is growing, but slower. The grind would reach the current levels again only after 5 years if they remove the perk tiers. So it is not bad for a temporary solution. Check my video from my post, I explain this in details there.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2812592#Comment_2812592
They said it will take same time as permanent thing to do, and it is temporary because with so many characters it grows exponentially with or without tiers.
It is not growing exponentially, it is growing, but slower. This temporary solution of removing perk tiers would actually lower the grind for the next 5 years. We would get back to the same levels only after 5 years. Check my video where i explain bit in details.
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2812639#Comment_2812639
They already confirmed they are working on something to lower the grind though
They didn't confirm it, here is the q&a https://youtu.be/wIocxDbQ-9g 29:04.
They just say "... we have something else in mind ...", or "... if we gonna spend so much time on a solution ...".
So they are not working on it, the solution just exists on the level of ideas, a bullet point at the end of a long to-do list. And we all know that those things take ages or never even happen.
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@Mooks said:
No you won’t be able to buy it without paying.
just don’t spend money on the game if you don’t want to. It’s okay if you don’t want to support the game/the devs if you are not satisfied with the product. But if you are actually that unsatisfied… why even feel the need to get the chapter at all?
I like the game and I would like to play as the new killer, but this insane amount of grind is very off putting. I hope the devs will not have this ignorant approach of "don't buy it if you don't like it" and will remove the grind. The devs could fix it with a relatively little amount of work.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
To play as Sadako... That is ideally why you would purchase her.
Yeah, that's why I would like to buy the DLC. But I don't want to be forced to run her with subpar perks until after a long painful grind I finally manage to unlock the perks I actually want to use on her.
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https://youtu.be/GnMOqBGM1uY
Watch this
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Nothing about reducing Grind in the patch notes...
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@Rokjer said:
I just don't understand. I'm a new player, I only have ~70h of play. I haven't unlocked many perks. I don't know how to properly play with the different killers. I don't know anything about the intricacies of the game. Despite all that, I am constantly confronted with players + 1K hours who know the game inside out, who have all the possible perks, who prevent me from making the slightest kill and humiliate me as much as they can. I am writing this post after being paired with a group of 4 Russian players between 5k~6k hours.
Is this the best asymmetrical horror game? I actually paid to be humiliated in a game where I can't win? Are you all mad? I spend my time running after guys who have a pallet every 2 meters and who dodge my attack with a perk when I finally manage to catch up with them. I don't care if I lose, but at least give me a chance.
I've played PvP/Multi games, but this is the first time I've felt the incompetence or ignorance of people developing a game. A friend wanted to buy the game, I did everything to dissuade him.
The problem is also often caused by lobby dodging killers. If a killer leaves the lobby the system just wants to find a new killer quickly, no matter if noob or pro. Maybe that's how you get these pro survivors. Based on my experience lobby dodging killers are quite frequent. Next time check their profile, if you see that they have 1k hours just dodge the lobby.
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The Grind: That's the easiest/fastest to implement and would be a great improvement.
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@Brimp said:
Queue times won't be fixed as long as mmr is a thing. No one wants to go against constant meta as killer if they win 2 matches in a row.
Queue times were bad before MMR as well. Simply just sometimes there are a lot more survivors queueing than killers. If you want to fix it, go play killer when the survivor queue is long.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
I don’t mind the grind. I think there’s a couple of issues here.
1.) the grind being complained about keeps the game interesting. I do not think DBD would do as well without a progression system. The rift opens up new forms of progression and I think is welcomed for that reason.
2.) There’s no time constraint to unlocking perks on characters. Do it at the pace you want. I’ve had a Steam account for two years now and probably completed most of the content in the game. If a player wants to be more casual, be more casual.
3.) The grind in this game is in many ways self inflicted. If the player wants to prestige a character, its their choice to commit to that. If they unlock more teachables before say completing prestiges on other characters with unlocked teachables, they are making it more difficult for themselves.
I am at the end of the grind personally. Devotion 14. All characters unlocked and P3. I only have seven killers who do not have all perks unlocked, but they have most of them. Survivors I have eight with all perks unlocked.
I’m looking forward to new characters. New content. I’m practically ready for the new Tome too.
Sorry, but you can't compare yourself to the other players. You spend insane amount of time on DBD, most of us can't afford and don't even want to spend that much time on this game. I am not prestiging and the grind is INSANE without prestige as well.
Here is a simple scenario that is not working because of the grind:
A new chapter is released, I buy it because I want to play the new killer. I would like to try various perk combos, try builds that various content creators suggested, etc. But it is impossible unless you spend 50+ hours on leveling up the new killer. And there are 26 of them.
Probably I shouldn't even buy new DLCs, because buying them is not enough, you need to also spend 50+ hours on it before you can fully do what you want.
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@GuyFawx said:
If they ever removed perk tiers i imagine that every perk would have to be adjusted to cost about 12k to 15k bp to compensate
Actually it would make more sense to give perks for free, because they are not like add-ons or offerings. Once you buy a perk you can use it forever. An add-on or offering disappears after the match. So you should earn Bloodpoints to be able to fund your add-ons and offerings.
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Who would win if you as a survivor would play against yourself as killer? Maybe both of you would lose? :D
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@Hermit said:
Remember the last Q&A stream?
Something along the lines of "removing perk tiers makes no sense because we would soon reach a point where the amount of grinding is the same" (because they release a new killer + suvivor every few months)
Now, if we remove perk tiers the grind would be reduced by roundabout 66% give or take. DBD has been out for a little bit over five years.
This means that it would take about eleven years of constant new releases to reach the same point again...
Dev logic, amirite? :D
The grind is increasing quadratically, so the grind would be already back in 5 years, not 10. 5 years is still a long time however. Check out my video on this topic if you want to know more details on the calculation.
https://youtu.be/WWACfO1boZ8 -
@Tsulan said:
I mean, in regard of the temporary part, removing the perk tiers would give them 10 years to come up with a solution before they reach the point of grind we have now.
Should be enough time. But maybe thats just me.
Note: it would give them 5 years, still a long time.
https://youtu.be/WWACfO1boZ8 -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWACfO1boZ8
Created a video summary on this.
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@ThanksForDaily said:
Removing perk tiers is not that easy. Perk tiers are tied with all the perks in the game and what they do. Synergize, cooldows etc. So they have to do a complete overhaul.
My suggestion is to reduce item/offering/add on BP prices, retire some completely useless cheap or expensive offerings such the purple Murky Reagent (6k bps), purple Shroud of Binding (6k bps) and more.
Just do something to make us save +20k bps per each bloodweb than the current one.
Why would it be difficult?
1) Devs update the bloodweb to show perks on tier 3 regardless if you bought the lower tiers.
2) Devs update the player database so that everyone who has a perk will now have it on tier 3.
Reducing addon prices doesn't make sense, because then you could just always run the best addons, nobody would use the lower tier addons.
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@Zenologic said:
I think they should give Killers 5 perk slots instead of 4 for balance. You face 16 perks and 4 items with 2 add ons each including BNP. Killers are supposed to be broken and overpowered since it's 4v1
If camping and tunneling is removed then sure... Otherwise it would become way OP at 3v1
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@FriendlyBubba said:
So obviously they are basement perks but what do you think that need improvements?
Nothing, just delete them
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Jokes aside, they were just good and you need to learn how to handle these kind of situations.
Omg they had meta perks? So what? That was your decision to go into the game with meme perks, it does not give you the right to complain about their perks.
Flashlight macro? Oh no, you poor guy, I start to cry immediately...
The match lasted ages? Well it was also because of you probably, you were playing as sweaty as them.
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Neither.
The problem: It is a 5th perk slot for the other survivors.
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Removing perk tiers was suggested many times, but is ignored by the devs.
Here is my recent thread with some dev replies in it + my counter arguments.
@fogdonkey said:
During the Q&A they said that it is difficult to remove perk tiers. Why?
Also they mentioned that it would not be a good long term solution, because the grind is increasing exponentially with new DLCs.
I agree that it is not a good long term solution, but it would be a good intermediate solution.
And a sidenote: the grind is increasing quadratically, not exponentially (with DLC releases).
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@Emeal said:
BHVR have said they are working on a better permanent solution that makes, the grind, the prestige system.
How about we wait and see what they come up with?
We all know what it means when they say they are working on something....
Maybe they haven't even started...
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Grades should be hidden, then people would not have frustrations like this.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2806934#Comment_2806934
One answer they gave on a QnA stream when I asked was because they don't want people to fully max out new content in a day and never touch it again.
Hmm... For some reason they assume that I would use the new character for farming Bloodpoints.
Maybe I try a new character a bit but I start playing with it normally once I have some reasonable perks unlocked. And I use my other levelled up killers to farm the Bloodpoints needed.
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@dugman said:
A couple of thoughts
- I think (hopefully I’m not misremembering) that the rewards you get from things like end of the season rewards are internally stored as a separate uncapped pool from the capped pool that you build up from matches. So if your uncapped portion of the bloodpoints is below 1 million you will still earn points after matches, at least until that part hits its cap.
- Even if you’re at the cap currently, hypothetically if all you care about is points for some reason you can still play now in order to build up your grades for next season’s rewards which would give you another big boost more or less around when Ringu releases.
- Finally you can always do what I do - Prestige characters and intentionally force yourself to play characters using whatever the bloodweb gives you after the reset. I find it’s a fun way to force myself to use perks I wouldn’t normally consider.
I had my normal bloodpoints at almost 1 million, so now with the rewards it is around 3 million. So I can't earn more. Probably I should have spent all those 1 million before 13th. If I spend Bloodpoints where does it subtract first? From the normal or from the rewards pool?
I am not doing prestige, it is a waste of Bloodpoints and the time invested. I don't need those bloody skins. Also those tiny percentage changes are not worth it compared to what I lose during prestige.
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@landromat said:
Instead of just reworking dead hard.
This perk causes so much problems and you're wasting so much time working on individual killer's problems. Just why? Somebody in the team loves this perk so much they make you do that? That's illogical
Or they could just change the description and add the "can confuse killers" into it. Now every bug is actually a feature of Dead hard.
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@PNgamer said:
Remove BP cap or I will not play DBD until the Ringu release ?????
You can't be serious..... are you seriously trying to blackmail the developers with statements like this? If you want to take a break, go ahead...., but a statement like this (headline, title) doesn't do anything. This is ridiculous
It is not blackmailing, it is just the truth how I and possibly other people feel.
And a post like this can make a difference, it can be another drop that will eventually fill the bucket and make the devs do something about it.
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@Nos37 said:
Didn't the devs say they put a Bloodpoint cap in place to limit the damage cheaters can do?
Speedhacking, god flashlghts, sprinting while dying, flying, insta-healing, and the devs are worried about cheaters buying perks, items, and addons??
I don't think so that cheating is related to this.
Also at one point cheaters could unlock and buy everything (all perks) with some cheat. Not sure if it is still possible.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
I was. But i am lucky, i still have so much characters waiting for level. So i wanted level my Meg, i used all BPs on her.
Yeah, of course I could also pour it into the infinite killer grind, but not sure if I want to. It would be maybe better to just have a good headstart when the new killer releases.
I have already maxed out Meg, so now I am just pouring BPs into killers. Or leveling up new released survivors to 40 to unlock the teachables.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2801678#Comment_2801678
NOED giving too much help is biggest cosmic mind I have ever seen.
So making all the survivors exposed is not a big help? Sure, whatever, there is no point in further discussing with you.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2801412#Comment_2801412
NOED just illustrates how that logic doesn't apply really well in DBD.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2801641#Comment_2801641
Yeah, COH is still too strong... it needs nerfing. Each killer has their own issue, so i'll just stick to overall balance here. Cause even the weakest killers benefits a lot from the new additions (in my opinion).
Please try to be a bit more constructive and open minded. Throwing some random arguments to disprove me without even thinking about it...
Noed could be a well designed perk. The issues with the current implementation are: It maybe gives too much help to the killer. Also if there are only 1-2 survivors alive the killer is in quite a good spot even if all the gens are done and does not deserve additional help from noed.
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Grades don't mean anything, and it is a lot easier to get to IRI Grade 1 as a killer.
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Maybe Unrelenting should be a meta perk to counter dead hard? :D
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Perks should help players when they are doing poorly. If perks reward good plays they create a self feeding loop which makes players in good state even better while players in bad state even worse.
In this sense dead hard is a healthy perk, because it helps the survivor in a bad situation. Many killer perks btw are not healthy in this sense (e.g. Pop goes the weasel).
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2801373#Comment_2801373
You could argue the opposite. A perk that help when you're doing badly or the opponent does well is a bad perk... cause your opponent shouldn't be punished for playing well or you playing bad. And that you should only be rewarded when playing well in the first place. But i guess that's another topic.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2801387#Comment_2801387
Well, i just wanted to say that we talk a lot about survivors buffs with boons... when good buffs to overall killers also came into play.
That's going against the philosophy from my comment: A game is fun when both sides feel that they have some chance for success. If you know that you have no chance of winning that's not really fun anymore, that's when AFK and DC starts to happen. Also when you know that basically you won the game no matter what, it is boring, because there is no challenge anymore.
Therefore perks and game mechanics should help that side which is doing poorly.
If the perks and game mechanics help that side which is doing better then it will get into a chain reaction kind of loop and the matches will be often decided early on and will move to a point of no return very quickly.
Example from another game: Counter strike. The side which starts to lose will get more money each round so that they can buy better weapons, while the winning side starts to get less and less money.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2801350#Comment_2801350
I don't understand what you're trying to say. How can a perk enhances a bad player and not a good one? That is not how it works.
Quick example, but I will create a separate post where I explain it better.
Badly designed killer perk: Pop goes the weasel. If you are doing well and manage to hook survivors you also get a lot of gen regression. If you are not doing so well then you get nothing: no hooks and no gen regression.
Well designed killer perk: Deadlock. The survivors manage to do a gen, i.e. they are doing well, therefore the killer gets some help by blocking a survivor gen.
A well designed perk helps you when you are doing badly / the other side is doing well.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2801293#Comment_2801293
If Perks greatly help killers that does bad... it will even more help killers that are doing good. That's why you have to balance perks around killers making the good play in the first place.
Please read again my comment.
I am explaining the exact opposite of what you say.
Perks should help if the player isn't doing well. They shouldn't help the player if the player is doing well to make them even stronger.