danielmaster87
danielmaster87
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
I think that's my big issue with 2v8 in general - that it's just DBD but… you know. Less.
I feel like if you prefer and only wanna play this mode you probably shouldn't be playing DBD, but something like Overwatch.
Yeah, I can't really think of other explanations. I would never play 2v8 full-time over 1v4. I only did so while it was out because it was new and because of the BP incentive.
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@Matherios said:
Instead of relying on chill players maybe we should nerf those syringes and some survivor perks.
Somebody's got it figured out. The game is only balanced based on the assumption you're getting inefficient survivors in your matches. As soon as that doesn't happen, just look at the OP's image for the result.
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Lithe + Dead Hard. 🤦♀️ The fact that players are getting away with running dumb combos like that in these very high level matches tells you something's wrong with the state of the game.
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He's broken on PC and/or with double speed add-ons, and mediocre otherwise. Most survivors hate a killer just because they're strong, but in this case I give them a little more leeway, until his problems^ get solved.
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Y'all don't seem to understand what the devs are trying to avoid here. They don't want another Syringe, as a perk. Nobody wants to deal with 2-3 Syringes in a match as it is, and y'all are suggesting these perks be as strong, so that we'd essentially see 2-3 instaheals per person. Sure, casual survivors won't be able to make use of that, because there's no way they could loop a half-decent killer for even a minute. But the high level survivors would just be untouchable with it. They still might be, if this perk ends up being stronger than you're saying it is. I've had successful use of Belmont's instaheal perk, and have been hit by it as killer, and it's absolutely game-losing for killer. A survivor healing over time for free, without wasting a teammate's time, and they can be on a gen or in chase while the heal is applying, is super strong. That's why they make the time for it to apply take so long. It being used in conjunction with the Syringe is the fear here.
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I saw constant gen class, which is the worst one. Quick healing, Sprint Bursts, and full-team aura info is way more powerful.
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@TheDavidKingMain said:
Why are survivors just not allowed to have strong perks anymore? This is actually ridiculous that killer mains have such control over the community that that they can get shoulder the burden, an anti tunnel perk with 2 SIGNIFICANT DOWNSIDES, nerfed before it even hits live servers.
Can’t say I’m surprised though, we all saw this happen so many times before. DS, dead hard, MFT, ADRENALINE! (seriously why did ADRENALINE need a nerf????) Why even buy the new survivors when their perks are so bad?
Because getting an extra hook state is the most broken thing in the game?! You're lucky the perk exists at all! If killers had the level of influence you imply, the perk would never be made.
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@HolyDarky said:
There was no chance that this addon would make it to the live servers. The combination of this addon and STBFL would had turn her in old machine gun killer. completely OP and miserable to face. If this was the only thing players were excited for, I don't feel bad for them.
Thus, I think she will find her fanbase. It is okay if a killer has a small fan base as long as this fan base is happy - Artist, Twins, and Singularity have a very low usage but their mains are happy
This is what gave us Skull Merchant. Simply hoping that the character with terrible design and aesthetic gets a following.
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Yeah, I hate always worrying about getting challenges, the rift, or some other special thing done. I just want to get on and think, "What/how do I want to play today?"
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843252#Comment_3843252
Again, you even admit that none of these regression perks have been touched in like 6 months. That isn't the reason things are changing right now.
The most recent change, in fact, was a buff adding another 2.5% of "current" progress base kit to every kick, including pop. So... Making more of these strongest form of pop base kit.
And don't even try moving the goal post here. You started out complaining about base kit BT, which is trivial for killers to ignore or counter. Suddenly you're changing your stance to literally "but, if the survivor brings 3 perks the killer has to wait a little longer to tunnel and this survivor build only works exactly once per game".
I can't take you seriously, goodbye.
You can't take someone else seriously? 2.5% is nothing, and you're gonna get upset over that, and not base BT which always gets abused as an offensive tool to waste killer's time. How is free speed (as fast as some killers), Endurance (another health state + sprint burst), and body blocking trivial? The killer can just ignore all of that, and not lose anything for it?
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@PetTheDoggo said:
Why are people acting here like slugging is not good thing to do?
There are definetly situations, where slugging is best option, it's not just "toxic" thing done by killers…I don't know.
They act like you can just will into existence the slowdown that you need, and the quick downs that you need. No. Look at the gameplay loop.
If the killer has 3 hooks and there's 1 gen left, how are they supposed to win. "It's the killer's fault he's in that position." Based on what? Assuming that the killer must always be a bad chaser or have bad game awareness to ever come close to that position?
And if we're gonna go that route, I could allege the same thing against survivors, and sometimes I do. You died at 5 gens? Your team must have been really bad. That simply must be true in order for that situation to occur. But notice the nuance I give them. Their team has to do bad; I never said they alone lost their team the match. They can be the best survivor on their team, and might never even make a mistake, but if their team is trash then they'll still lose, as is logical. That's not fair for them, but it happens nonetheless, and doesn't change the outcome of the match.
The mistake this community makes is not giving that same benefit of the doubt to the killer. They just say, "The killer has a bad result? He MUST be bad." They don't account for the countless situations in this game where he literally has no agency, and the survivors do instead. If you run a jungle gym or shack correctly, most killers literally can't hit you there until Bloodlust 2 or something stupid.
It can appear, to untrained eyes, that killers on these forums don't give survivors respect for their nuances, but that's because the things a lot of them argue about are just strange, and are not high level at all. "The killer is OP because he can see my aura." If it was so OP, survivors would never escape in all these years, especially against the killers that run 4 aura perks. And yet they have, because they didn't care if they got spotted. They'd just loop the killer. So it's my conclusion that a lot of the killers are arguing for top level balance changes, and a lot of the survivors are arguing for casual balance changes. That's why we don't see eye to eye.
Now, some people say, "You shouldn't always be arguing for top level play, then. Or you should clarify that." But if you ask me, it should just be common knowledge that they're arguing about that. I mean, what are casuals even doing talking about game balance? They don't even have 100 hours in-game, some of these people, and they're dictating to veterans, "The game MUST be balanced this way, so we can have fun." when it's obvious that experienced players usually (and should) beat newbies. I don't think they understand what they're talking about a lot of the time, and you can tell that, again, by the stuff they talk about. "Wraith and Legion are so OP! They're unbeatable! Nerf BBQ & Chili!"
Given all that, you can understand why they think about slugging that way. They think it's unfair, in the same way they think the killers moving faster than them is unfair.
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@GeneralV said:
Buffing the hook timer doesn't even make slugging necessary, at all.
Players just choose to slug, that is all that happens.
There are matches where slugging is literally necessary because of the time disadvantage you need to catch up from. Not all time disadvantages are your fault, and on killer I think it's the default vs good survivors. But the point is, if you're never gonna be able to down and hook survivors fast enough, through not fault of your own, before the gens are done and they run out, what other choice is there for you to win? It's a false choice.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844177#Comment_3844177
you realize that hooking all the time is no situational awareness, game sense or nuance. personally, i don't have a problem with killer gameplay being pushed towards slugging. it just means that hooking doesn't have enough of a reward. the killer trying to win is not BMing.
I never understood that. "You're bad. Just chase normally to win." So they're not supposed to use strategies or game sense to win? They're just supposed to go off the first gen or survivor they see, and not think ahead? Ironically all these people saying that killers tunneling and stuff "takes no skill/brain power" are advocating for a gameplay loop where you don't critically think at all and are playing on hard mode for no reason, and you'll lose because of it.
It's like being told that you're supposed to win a NASCAR race with 1 of your tires being flat, and when you complain that it's not fair compared to the other cars who are in tip top condition, they just say, "No, it is fair. You're basically set to win 10/10 times." It's not based in reality; they're just saying stuff.
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@[Deleted User] said:
It's all well and good that they're doing another monster hunt here. But how will it help you? If you want to change anything, you need to direct all your "us versus them" energy to giving killers a reason to play hooks. Preferably those same 12 hooks.
How can you not understand that in the long run, there will be someone like me left among the killers. Do you really think that all the nerfs harm those same campers and tunnelers? No. Those who play hooks suffer the most. For a camper and tunneler, this is a reason to simply become better. True, not in the ways that the surviving side wanted to see ;)
And your 12 hook players will fully feel all the nerfs, since the knightly code of honor will not allow them to take harsh measures to achieve their goal. You will see them at most on holidays, archive quests and the new DLC, after which they will return to play as a survivor. They don't have the mindset to constantly play the killer with the current balance. The increased number of sad tactics proves it.
Only we are ready to tolerate everything that the game puts against us. Because we have enough determination to use all means to achieve the goal. No one will play to their own detriment. Only benefit is important and most will only do what is profitable. Profitable, unfortunately, is not what is fun. Even one respected streamer released a video on how to play slug on Singularity. Showing that slug is a profitable tactic. That's how crazy times have come that media personalities have seen the benefit of slug.
As for me personally. That's why I am convinced every time that I have chosen the right path. One of the last games. Three warriors of light with the Crow's Eye offering. If the killer was weaker in spirit, he would have become a fun toy for survivors, but, fortunately, they got to me in the lobby, and not to the baby Trapper.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GNMRQ2LPE035/20241122203241-1.jpg
I think that's what happened, and is an additional reason for why solo survivor feels so hard: the quality of the average survivor has gone down because their gameplay has been dumbed down (all the handouts and killer nerfs), but the average killer is way better than they used to be because the chase-focused ones left and the campers/tunnelers got more efficient.
Slugging is really the only way to play Singularity. He just has nothing otherwise. You spend all this time, effort, and planning setting up cameras and spreading infection and hits around, but you don't get any downs and the gens get done, because of how overpowered EMPs are. In addition to them, hooking people also removes infection for free. So why would you ever hook?
And I've been convince, too. Every time, I say to myself, "There is no possible way I could have won that match, or got more than a draw, by chasing normally. I HAD to tunnel/slug." And these doubters just don't get it. They do an Otz, where they think if you just have enough skill, if you just believe in yourself enough like an anime hero, you'll somehow be able to beat ANY team. I'm sorry, but it's simply not true. There ARE matches that happen in this game which are literally unwinnable on the killer side, and that should never be the case, but until people accept that truth, we're going nowhere fast.
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@I_CAME said:
Killer mains really are desperate to get that extra ten seconds removed.
It's not just killer mains. It's people who don't like the change. Survivors are hanging up on hook for what seems like forever, the killer has downed 1 maybe even 2 other survivors, and they still get unhooked in time before hitting second stage. As if hook trading wasn't a time positive for survivors before, assuming they did the gens in the meantime. The change really upsets the balance of the game, especially coinciding with all the hook-based gen defence nerfs. There's basically zero incentive to hook, and there's no time to either, so killers will just slug and hope for the 4k that way, rather than doing normal chases and hooking, and getting a 1-2k for it.
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@bm33 said:
Either everyone comes for the unhook or no one comes, there's no in between. Next iteration they should add basekit Kindred (minus killer aura) so you can see who is/isn't going for a rescue.
I guess that would be fine, but I still believe you're never gonna be able to carry the uncarryable, no matter how many buffs you give them. There's a breed of survivor who just run the edges of the map, hide, heal, and never do a gen after the first one. You can't help them.
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@[Deleted User] said:
You can still be not very good with killer and win a solid majority of your matches. Hence dealing with what you and us all have to deal with.
At his current level, yes. But that was how it was before MMR got screwed up. Now, who knows how many mismatches he has to endure before he gets put on an even playing field?
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That's right. It needs to be fixed. Enemy #1 in this game.
You're new/casual, so you're supposed to be put with new/casual teammates and opponents. On the killer end, it's giving you players way out of your league. As survivor though, you are getting the normal teammates for your level. I'm actually astounded you're complaining about teammates not doing anything, because that's rare for newer players to realize. In fact, many have thousands of hours, and still insist that the killers are all overpowered, as their team can't even do 1 gen before dead. So once you get teammates who actually want to win, you'll do way better. But killer, I can't really help you. It's a tough role regardless of skill or experience. Experience and skills which you won't even be able to develop, as either role, because the game is shoehorning together players of ludicrously different caliber.
Sad thing, too. MMR was perfect when it was first launched. You knew what you were getting into. Now it might as well be random. And in all this randomness, the devs and the community are looking at stats like kill rate and say with a straight face, "These are completely reliable, and definitely aren't skewed." We can't have productive discussions on how to improve the game, because the matchmaking hides what the issues are and confuses everyone.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843831#Comment_3843831
another reason why mmr/sbmm is pointless, I feel.
I supported mmr because I thought I'd face killers like you more consistently
Well, there is no MMR in the 2v8 mode. But I want good teammates and opponents, not bad ones, and an influx of new players guarantees more bad.
MMR isn't pointless. It just isn't doing its job. Constant mismatches.
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Another reason for me not to play the game right now.
Edit: On the other hand, I just saw the 3x BP bonus.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843772#Comment_3843772
You have a choice. It is not forced.
What choice? To lose? I've already explained this:
Whether you're talking about high level players, or even average players at this point, if it's not a mismatch (one side knows what they're doing while the other doesn't), then the survivors should win by default. The math says that killers need to be hooking someone every 30 seconds or so, to kill them before they do the gens and get out. You can only come close to that time efficiency by tunneling and camping, meaning that just chasing without tunneling and camping, mathematically, should be an automatic loss. I can't explain it simpler than that.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843587#Comment_3843587
The balance issue arises because survivors have access to tools and teamwork that scale exceptionally well when used efficiently, while killers often rely on strategies like tunneling or camping to stabilize games. These strategies aren’t about incompetence; they’re about compensating for the pressure that 4 survivors can generate when objectives are completed in 80 seconds with optimal play.
Killers relying on tunnelling and camping are self-fulfilling prophecies. Every win with those tactics gets chalked up to that without exploring what the killer could've done without it. And as others have mentioned, crutching your way up above your MMR without expanding your skillset to match that new MMR is going to make the game feel slanted against you.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843590#Comment_3843590
But as usual, this entire wall of text just comes down to 'feeling'.
'I feel like the game is unbalanced, therefor it is'.
There is nothing to back any of that up. Kill rates are higher in high MMR than low, and even with 4-man swiffers at the highest ranks, the escape rate doesn't touch 50%. All of these notions of how unbalanced the game is all stem from a few killer players feeling overwhelmed, even if they are still perfectly capable of pulling off a win. Heck, that right there is probably the reason for the trend of 'Look how overpowered X survivor thing is!' + Screenshot of a 4K. There's plenty of killers out there that consider the match lost by the time the third gen pops, with no regard for diminished resources on the survivor side, or the gradually constricting playfield.
There's a lot of fingerpointing to competitive level play, of which the balance continues to be unproven, but then there's silence about average play where certain streamers have shown more than once that killers can perform outrageously well, even with a bunch of extra restrictions. But despite that, a couple of killer players that feel that the game's unfair will demand more buffs for killers.
You can have your subjective opinion, and that's fine, but it's really tiring that the subjective opinions of survivors keep getting bowled over by those of killers, while the stats back up the survivors.
There's an uphill battle for ya.
It also feels like killers aren't really moving to address anything swiffers do, just pulling out the 'swiffer is the power role somehow despite still not hitting 50% winrate at high MMR' card whenever there's a discussion on balance. I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that's ever suggested basekitting some kind of defense against rampant unhook denial. Everyone else mostly keeps their mouth shut until it's time to defend tunnelling and camping.
And if we're going to talk about how the game feels, it genuinely feels like killers have been in charge of balance practically since 6.1. So if these issues are still flapping around, maybe there's a problem with the killer community's ability to read the game.
No. I think you're arguing in bad faith. You're critiquing allegedly "feelings"-based thoughts, and say stats matter over everything, but then argue that killers' subjective (feeling-based) arguments are worth less or none at all compared to survivors' subjective arguments. And you're making the same mistake as the devs by looking just at the stats. The devs need experience-based input as well, to figure out what's wrong with the game.
Killers have not had control of this game at all, because the gameplay loop and meta that survivors engage in has not changed. Virtually all benefits granted to killers in that "game ruining" 6.1.0 patch have been done away with or cancelled out. There are loops where, if the survivor knows how to run it, a killer has to waste a guaranteed amount of time to catch up to them, with no chance of mindgame shortcuts. When time is what the killers are fighting against, because the gen speed is too fast for them to physically stop, and they can't be in 4 places at once, a single chase like that can be game-losing. I could go on, but the point is that stuff like this isn't subjective; it's a matter of fact. I'll start questioning the average killer player's skill or game sense as soon as a somewhat even playing field has been established, but we have yet to see that in this game, because the math says gens are faster than the combined chases. Despite the handful of gifted killer players who manage to defy the odds, and win very consistently, it doesn't dispute that math.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843479#Comment_3843479
Camping and tunneling aren't forced in any kind of way. It's always a choice whether to do it or not.
If you 'lose every game' because you can't win without camping or tunneling, your MMR will drop and you'll start winning matches without doing those things. Then you'll land in an equilibrium MMR state where you win sometimes and lose sometimes.
It is forced. It's the end result of being as efficient as possible as killer, in response to survivors being as efficient as possible. When you're playing in the best way as killer, and you're still losing, that's not on you. Going down in MMR for those killers is just giving them a break from opponents of equal skill. Suddenly they'll start beating teams like nothing, even without strategy, because the survivors are bad. Then they go back to their correct MMR, which you disagree on, and get beat effortlessly by opponents of equal skill again. Good killers want to beat good players, not bad ones, but when we go against them, the game is rigged to lose. You can't out-skill the system of "chases takes X time" and "gens take X time," when the time spent chasing is always greater than the time it takes to do gens. There's nowhere for that skill to go, because you've already hit the limit of what you can do. Survivors can do a heck of a lot better in chase, but they don't have to because they're already winning via fast gens.
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@Vishlumbra said:
Which killers, though?
Because this seems to be a sentiment shared by a handful of killer players who seem to consistently complain about how hard the game is, and immediately attributing it to game balance.
As opposed to, perhaps, their own competence.
If the game's difficulty were purely about individual competence, why do lower-tier killers consistently underperform at high MMR? Shouldn't they all be equally viable if it's just about skill? Also… comp.
The balance issue arises because survivors have access to tools and teamwork that scale exceptionally well when used efficiently, while killers often rely on strategies like tunneling or camping to stabilize games. These strategies aren’t about incompetence; they’re about compensating for the pressure that 4 survivors can generate when objectives are completed in 80 seconds with optimal play.
And although streamers can't be taken as representative of the player base as a whole, they do represent some fraction of the spectrum of players, and everyone gets to see them perform at whatever level they can manage. And there's one streamer I watch who regularly dominates nearly every match I've ever seen them play as killer without resorting to tunneling or camping, which suggests that it is definitely possible to do that. It might not be possible to do with all killers, and there might be a fraction of survivor players who can dominate every match they play, but it appears there aren't a large enough number of these super dominant survivor players to prevent some killer players from winning at an extremely high rate. From my own experience in game, I've also never reached a level where I thought the survivors were so good that I couldn't get a 3k in at least some of my games if I just kept improving.
It’s important to recognize that what a skilled streamer can achieve isn’t necessarily representative of what the average or even above-average killer player can consistently accomplish. Streamers often play with thousands of hours of experience, near-perfect map knowledge, and optimized strategies. Additionally, they may benefit from survivor behavior that isn’t always optimal due to the casual nature of many public matches.
Moreover, not all killers are created equal. The streamer you mentioned may dominate with specific killers or under certain conditions, but weaker killers require significantly more effort to achieve the same level of pressure. The same applies to map design—killers without mobility can struggle on large maps, even in skilled hands. The difficulty disparity between killers is an acknowledged design choice, but it does mean that balance issues affect different killers unequally.
It’s also worth saying that survivor skill scales differently. A single skilled survivor can loop a killer for an extended period, but a coordinated team with voice communication exponentially increases the pressure on a killer. This creates scenarios where tunneling or camping becomes less about lack of skill and more about adapting to overwhelming survivor efficiency in the absence of coordinated teammates on the killer's side.
If a small fraction of survivor players dominate matches, as you suggest, shouldn’t we also consider that a small fraction of killer players can dominate without tunneling or camping? Wouldn’t it be fair to focus balance on what’s feasible for the majority of players rather than a few highly skilled individuals?
Personal thoughts:
Statistics from platforms like NightLight demonstrate that survivor escape rates generally range from 40% to 52%, depending on factors like skill, perk usage, and teamwork. These stats often combine all survivors into one category, as survivors fundamentally share the same tools and objectives. However, for killers, this kind of amalgamation is impossible due to their vastly different power levels and mechanics. Balancing killers is much more nuanced, as some killers (like Nurse and Blight) have extremely high skill ceilings and dominance at top levels, while others (like Trapper, Clown, and Myers) are considered borderline unviable due to their outdated mechanics, reliance on RNG, or inability to apply consistent pressure.
Many killers urgently need reworks or buffs to make them competitive. Trapper, for instance, is heavily dependent on map RNG and preparation time, which modern survivor tools and perks nullify with ease. Killers like Clown or Myers lack the mobility or utility necessary to keep up with high-pressure survivor playstyles, making them extremely challenging to play effectively even at average skill levels. This discrepancy highlights a fundamental issue: while survivors function as a relatively uniform group, killers face a balance spectrum so wide that some are effectively excluded from competitive play.
Balancing Dead by Daylight must address the unique struggles of both survivors and killers. Survivors' universal tools and shared mechanics make balancing their stats straightforward, but killer balance requires addressing the glaring disparities between strong and weak killers. Ignoring this reality risks alienating a significant portion of the player base who enjoy playing less viable killers but feel left behind due to outdated design.
If balance continues to cater to survivor preferences—such as nerfing strategies like camping or tunneling without compensating weaker killers—it risks reducing the game to an unchallenging experience that undermines the satisfaction of victory. The developers should focus on making all killers viable, balancing the game for achievable fairness rather than appeasing demands for ease, ensuring every match retains its tension, challenge, and sense of accomplishment.
One of the saddest things is there were times where several killers were in a pretty decent spot, and were on their way to viability. They just needed 1 or 2 more buffs. Take pre-nerf Wraith, the best example I can give. I don't need to go too much into it, but he's got a boatload of counterplay, from baiting pallet drops, to rapid vaulting windows, to holding W to the next loop when he slows himself down or tries to body block. And yet, he used to feel pretty good. That speed boost/long lunge was awesome, and was basically anti-loop, even though it technically wasn't. But, and I know you won't like this example, if Tru3 (competitive DBD streamer) could face Oracle (some top team or something) for 5 rounds as Wraith (his best killer at the time), using different add-ons/perks each time, and struggled to get even 1 down vs a coordinated team (because of body blocks and pre-dropping), what does that say about the killer's strength? He doesn't have enough. He needed better base cloaked speed, faster uncloak speed (or less slowdown when uncloaking), something. But instead, the devs nerfed him. They nerfed him! 🤣 And there's several killers who were in his position, and still got nerfed, some that same patch. Deathslinger, Twins, Nemesis, Pinhead. And for what? Because survivors lost to them, after allowing themselves to be hit by their powers over and over, and get downed over and over, in exchange for no added gen pressure? The types of killer nerfs we've seen completely destroy these killers at high level, and make them more bullyable by SWF. But clueless solos will still lose to them, and so further down the road, they're just gonna get nerfed again! It's really ridiculous. I've never seen devs have a game so close to something beautiful, and then just disfigure it to cater to casuals. In a competitive online game! They just view it as competitive when it's in the survivors' favor.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/433121/uncomfortable-truths-of-dbd
High-level survivors complete generators so efficiently that killers often resort to camping or tunneling to regain control of the game. While criticized as "unfun" tactics, these strategies are sometimes the only way killers can compete against well-coordinated teams.
Which killers, though?
Because this seems to be a sentiment shared by a handful of killer players who seem to consistently complain about how hard the game is, and immediately attributing it to game balance.
As opposed to, perhaps, their own competence.
Most of the killer cast. Basically anyone but top 3, S tier.
We're attributing it to game balance because it is the game's balance that's at fault. I have confidence that most of the experienced survivor players, as many biased survivor mains as there are, would agree with us. I'll say it but hopefully others have thought of it: Of the complaints that we killer mains had 4 years ago, or 2000-3000 hours of playtime ago, a lot probably had lack of experience/skill as factor. I'm no longer an ill-tempered recruit, but a seasoned veteran on both roles, at least by the average player's standards (some still don't know doing gens is how you win). And yet, I'm still having the same issues. We all are. The gens are too fast, good loopers waste too much time/are near impossible to catch, and killer keeps getting nerfed while SWF never gets touched. I'll dedicate some of my losses to my platform and my compatibility with it. A joystick just isn't the same as a mouse, and neither are the sensitivity settings compared to PC, so I'll genuinely miss an attack, maybe even 2, in a match. But I practically trained my chase/game sense alone for the last year or 2 where I continually said, "Gen defense isn't worth it against good survivors. Use chase/endgame instead!" I got better at chase, at camping, at tunneling, at slugging, at dropping chase when necessary, at letting a gen go when necessary, at settling for a draw rather than a loss, and at knowing when to take the big risk to get a 4k. I stay away from Nurse/Blight/Spirit because I just don't want to rely on them always. I've become good with many complex/weaker killers like Wraith, Clown, Demogorgon, Deathslinger, Unknown, Alien, and I've 4k'd with them many times, through hard work and force of will.
The survivors on the other hand have never felt more mediocre, and they're seeing better results. I feel it as survivor. We're losing a match, and all of a sudden me and 1 other hop on a gen, and now all the gens are done, when before they were going at a snail's pace. "Wow, so we could have just done that at any point!" I sarcastically say every time. The average survivor player really isn't that good compared to the average killer. They prioritize heals over everything, won't do stuff until healed, hide when they have no hooks and their teammates are on death hook, do chests and dull totems, don't know how to run no-mindgame tiles like shack and jungle gyms, waste pallets after getting hit. I see them more and more all the time, no matter how much I escape and push my MMR up. It's as if 90% of ladder is MMR hell, because it's so simple to escape as survivor that so many do it, not knowing some of the most basic game knowledge on how to beat decent killers. They give up constantly too, something I almost never see killers do. And eventually they do die, and me with them... because of them.
It comes down to MMR. That's the X factor that runs this whole machine. When MMR first launched, it was perfect. You knew exactly what you were going to get in 95% of your matches: teammates and/or opponents who were of your level. But the devs have screwed it up hard. What it does now, as an end result of counting just escapes and kills as a measurement of your caliber, is it puts you and 1 other good teammate with 2 potatoes, up against a decent killer. If the killer realizes they're the weak link and tunnel them out, you're done. The killer doesn't even have to play well at that point, because you've been playing a 2v1 essentially. If the killer chases you instead, most likely y'all escape, as long as teammates know "Do gens = win." And yet, if you're good with killer, you get non-stop tough matches. They don't have to play well. Just as long as they do gens, you'll have a major uphill battle. Against a good SWF, it's basically impossible to win. They have too much control, too many tools and not enough pressure on them. But we don't see this imbalance with the naked eye. MMR hides it, and I believe that's what it's designed to do. It orchestrates the 60/40 kill/escape rate. It forces mismatches on ladder (90% MMR hell), and gives good killers constant tough, gen-efficient opponents at high MMR, to manufacture that 60% kill rate. And people look at that state, recite it, and that's it. No in-depth discussion of any kind. Just "That's what the stats say." The stats are garbage, and don't tell you the story of a match, and we've always known this. A killer getting 2 kills could have got 2 hooks, and was getting destroyed the whole match, or he could have got 10 hooks, put in a ton of work and got a draw by default because gen speed.
We've had our differences, you and I, but I think you can agree with at least some of what I've said. I simply combine the facts with my experience and others' experience, to conclude that killer is bad off (due to balance), solo is bad off (due to matchmaking, not balance), and SWF remains the untouched power role. You may have had different experience and interpret the information differently, but that's the point. The feedback loop of bad balance and MMR skewing results is what has deceived and confused us all.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843479#Comment_3843479
Which Freddy nerf? The one immediately after his release or the one he got in 2021?
2021. We may have had this conversation before, you and I, but I'd be surprised if you of all people bought into that whole business, that outcry of, "Nerf Freddy because he's S tier! He's Nurse level!" As an M1 killer, with a tablespoon of slowdown via add-ons. "Forever Freddy." Please. That build included Ruin, which is a hex that could be destroyed. Used Pop as well, a perk dependent on the killer getting multiple downs fast, and kicking gens before they're done. Don't know what other perks were used, but they were most definitely negligible. A team who let Freddy beat them using that was likely to lose to him anyway, and that's the philosophy I often use when defending killer stuff. But I know you think Freddy is stronger than popular belief. Even you would agree that his S tier placement (at the time), the way the nerf was done, and especially his nerfed Dream Pallet count, was uncalled for, right?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
Here are some uncomfortable counter points and other thoughts:
You aren't high/Max MMR, you're just in over your head.
Camping and tunneling aren't necessary for the average player in any sense. These are base kit "strategies" that are easy for the killer to execute and difficult for survivors to counter effectively. This leads to killers over using these tools for easier wins until the killer eventually boosts their MMR higher than their actual skill level. Typically this is followed by complaining on the forums because the game is "too hard".
If you use camping, tunneling, and slugging as situational tools instead, you'll not only be better at the game, but also be at your actual skill level for easier games. The game is trying to force a 60% kill rate, so you can choose to use camping and tunneling in every situation, sweat every game, and kill about 60%, or you can use game sense, have chill games at your actual skill level, and still kill about 60%.
The killer team has perfect coordination.
Solo survivors have very few built in tools and no effective communication. SWF isn't guaranteed to have communication either. But a team of one person is always on the same page as themselves. There isn't one person doing totems while 3 are trying to escape, for example. Killers in 2v8 have the same problem, where not being on the same page can be detrimental.
A 50% killer win rate does not mean survivors are winning the other half.
Using a 3k or 4k as a killer win, killers are currently winning about 51% of games. Survivors are only winning with a 0k or 1k about 37% of the time. Draws are about 12%, which is the conveniently forgotten statistic.
Whether you look at wins: 51% (which is only partial data since BHVR doesn't post this information) or kill rates: 60% (official data), all of these stats indicate the game is currently balanced in favor of killers.
The killer determines the pace of the game.
This i somewhat agree with. Although, many people need to hear that survivor gameplay is almost entirely in reaction to the killer. If the killer is AFK, survivors game play is "do gens and leave", and everything else is a reaction to what the killer does.
If the killer decides to focus on one survivor, by camping or tunneling, then there are 3 other survivors with nothing to do other than gens.
Update feel reactionary.
Completely agree. Some people on the forums actually feel entitled to change solely based on their feedback and have been angry they haven't been catered to fast enough.
To the Devs:
Mostly agree that there should be a coherent game direction. The devs need to generally have an idea of how they want a game to play out. Things like the current "gen speed increase on hook" are highly confusing because of the obvious implications: people will try to avoid hooks. Is that the gameplay you want?
What, generally speaking, do the devs want a "typical game of DbD" to look like? Because it feels like it's just a sandbox for players to do whatever. But balance changes absolutely affect the gameplay.
Hard disagree, though, that they're balancing for "best killers" vs "low level survivors". Quite the opposite. They're absolutely balancing for SWF, and since they keep making base kit buffs to make killer easier, the trend is more "average killer" should be able to contend with "very coordinated teams". Given that we had "chess merchant" as an extreme example, you had an average killer who nearly beat the best competitive survivor team, I think my assessment is more accurate here.
Many killers aren't in over their heads. They're facing people of the same caliber, skill and experience, as themselves. But they're losing and drawing by default. The bar for survivors is so low to win with, you have to play like 5x better than them to beat them, and at a certain point they're just too "good" to be beat, because the killer lacks tools to push to that level. And this obsession with "proving" that using strategy is skilless, or puts you above your level as killer, I'll never understand. The game doesn't provide killers enough time to go for random chases and still get the win; the gens go way too fast for that. So killers improvise, and go for tunneling and 2-hooking. In order to get to those positions, the killer has to be good at chase, so your argument on them simply not being good enough in chase doesn't work. Because if that was the case, why don't people at top MMR or tourney just go for random chases, since they're somehow good enough, and still get a 4k? It never happens, because it isn't realistic. They're still getting draws at best most times. No amount of skill or game sense enables you to bypass loops or counterplay which usually work for survivor, and that waste a guaranteed, arbitrary amount of time. You're just hoping that the survivors lack game knowledge or skill, aka accidental smurfing.
I don't even know where you're going with the killer team coordination thing. There's 1 killer, 1 mind. If you go to a gen and find there's no survivor there, you've just wasted time. There's no other voice in your head that tells you, "Don't go there, because there's nobody there." You're all alone and have to operate on instinct alone. You can, of course, use aura perks but they won't cover everything. And if you're spending slots on aura, you're giving up slots on chase, which you need all you can get. And that's not even factoring in reading survivor caliber. You're supposed to just know that a chase will cost you 3 gens after looping someone for 3 pallets, when you reasonably thought you'd have them down by then? No. There's no indication that you're taking a bad chase, or that the gens are too fast, until it's too late.
You even agree on the killer vs solo vs SWF issue. Survivors playing bad? Here's a buff, we'll bail you out. Killers playing well? They're getting too much reward, nerf them! SWF with a 95% win rate? Never nerf them, because solos exist.
The stats thing is kind of pointless to talk about, because people don't understand it, and don't factor in... other factors. The escape rate is way lower than it really should be, because survivors throw all the time, way more than killers. Most times, that's because a good survivor gets put with absolutely hopeless teammates, who couldn't even beat a killer of their own level, and the game decided to give them a super competent killer. That's forced mismatches from MMR skewing the data. It's why the data is so unreliable right now, and you can't even have a discussion on imbalance with most people because of it.
Killer doesn't determine the pace of the game. Survivors do. Instead of doing a dull totem, a chest, or healing when unnecessary, they can do a gen during that time instead, and suddenly the game is a lot closer. 1 gen left til done instead of 2-3. It's that simple. The killer can only be in 1 place at a time, and thus cannot stop the gens until at least 1 person is dead. Only then is he somewhat capable of dictating the match result, but then again the match is usually over by that point.
Agreed on the reactionary updates. I'll add that they're usually survivor-protecting reactions.
I don't think the devs are balancing for SWF. They're buffing killer. But are those killer buffs making killers, who lost constantly to SWF before, all of a sudden start beating them? No, of course not. They only marginally help against solo teams. There's such a power difference between solos + killers and SWF, that you'd have to almost make the game unplayable for solos for killers to have fair matches against SWF. Now, that's an assumption using this same pattern and the same way of thinking that the devs/anti-killer survivors have been using for years. I'd instead suggest to simply nerf SWF, to a point where there'll be no more "But what about solos?!" It's a stone wall discussion, currently, until they're nerfed.
Aaaanndd you lost me, because you're citing that absolute sham of a Skull Merchant match. Given the same information, we've drawn dramatically different conclusions from that match, similar to how we disagree on other points. It's no small rumor that the comp scene, while definitely competitive, is likely less sweaty than your average top MMR match. Survivor stuff is banned, certain maps are banned, and so is some killer stuff. Top MMR matches operate without those restrictions. But you see the same thing, of killers always just camping/tunneling 1 out til dead, and maybe settling for a draw after, even as Nurse/Blight, because the survivors do the gens too fast. Looking at matches like that on ladder, I find it impossible that "the best team in the world" was held by Skull Merchant alone for that length of time. Here's what I noticed. They're facing an M1 killer (inherently weak) whose obvious best strategy would be to 3-gen using drones, as any other way would be a death sentence. They know this (or maybe they don't, because:) and yet they, rather than doing what every half-competent survivor team knows to do by default on Azarov's (although this is a different, albeit easier map) which is to 99' a far gen until they've broken the 3-gen, decided to play directly into 3-genning themselves. Against Skull Merchant. 🤦♀️ That alone disqualified them from their bogus title/reputation. And then they proceeded to, with 4 survivors still alive, not break the 3-gen, and in fact have people hooked and even downed, with no significant gen progress in exchange. At around the 16-minute and 23-minute marks, per Hens' timer on his video, I had my suspicions confirmed. Barely any rushing, let alone touching, of the gens. Dropped every pallet on the 3-gen side, and no gen progress in exchange. People just running back to gens, or standing around with a flashlight, instead of being on them. They just keep standing around, like ye old rank 20s. And they still beat her, after making every conceivable misplay and inefficiency possible (until they decided to turn their brains on)! So if anything, it shows survivors are advantaged, not killer.
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@Steakdabait said:
My only opinion about this stuff is simply just learn to read the room of the match your in. You aren't playing against high level swfs every other match and survivors understanding the bare min of the macro of their role doesn't count as "high level" imo. Do you honestly need to 3 stage 1k timmy who clearly doesn't even know the layout of the map he's on to win? Im not saying that you never need to tunnel/heavily slug to win in some of your matches. It's 100% the only winning play sometimes, but if have to 3 stage someone every match to feel like you have a chance you need to look inward instead of blaming game balance if you're playing match make games. Just try to remember the human on the other side that's all im asking fellas.
There's no time! You start the match easy, get 2 chases in, and lose 4 gens. You start the match easy, get 2 chases in, and lose no gens. It's literally impossible for you to tell what kind of match it's gonna be, because you're not told ahead of time what the gen speed will be like. The survivors don't even have to play well in chase. They just do their objective and win. But then you have players who don't know what their objective is. I would rather kill them all quickly, using whatever method, so we can both move on from the clearly not worthwhile mismatch. We want to beat good players, not noob stomp. And it's not a lack of trying or improvement on those harder matches. The gens just go too quick; There's nothing to improve upon, because you can't control it.
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Trueeee!
Camping and tunneling are kind of forced at this point. You can play the game normally, and lose every time. Or you can use these strategies, like a normal person in any other online game would, and maybe win.
I don't know why it isn't obvious to everyone, but SWF are the most privileged role of all. They literally never get nerfed. It's always stuff that affects solos and killers. All this solo buffing does is make SWF stronger, because the buffs you're giving these solos... They're not even supposed to be winning. The reason they're not winning is because they're bad, uncarryable even. No amount of buffs is going to make uncarryable teammates carryable, and neither is killer nerfs that are blatantly anti-fun and cater to the most casual level survivors possible/super biased survivor mains. "Killer shouldn't even be able to see aura" and crap like that.
It does feel like killers are seen as the strongest they can be, and survivors as their weakest. "But what if the killer has a really strong start and plays well?" Then he should win. "But what if the survivors play really bad and give up?" Then they should lose.
The 40% escape rate, if it wasn't obvious, is because survivors play bad. They throw the game, and throw the killer free kills constantly, in almost every match. And like I've said before, even if the kill rate is 60%, most likely a majority of games the killer is drawing. The survivors complaining about dying all the time, and always blaming the killer instead of themselves or their teammates, need to play killer. Watch in amazement as you do like 3-5 normal chases, nothing crazy but nothing bad either, and see that the game's already over. That's what happens when your survivor opponents aren't nothing.
I think it's misworded to say that killers have responsibility for the game pace. They definitely bear the punishment of the game pace. It's really controlled by survivors, because they can, at any time, just decide to focus on gens, and they're done. I've seen it, from unbeatable SWF teams to my half-cocked solo teams. I get on the gen with 1 other person and think out loud, "Oh look. We could have done this at any time, and closed out the game." instead of looping badly, healing constantly, and taking forever to do anything.
Updates most certainly are reactionary, and it's terrible. The one proactive change they ever did was give Huntress 7 hatchets. People lost their minds. But don't you see? People are saying even now that she's fallen out of favor in recent years. She's just too slow, and no amount of hatchet cap raising is gonna make her Nurse/Blight level: viable. Them giving her those extra hatchets, when they did, means that she's not as trash now as she would have been considered. But all the other reactive changes, you could go on and on about how nonsensical they were. Freddy nerf, Wraith nerf Pinhead nerf, Pig nerf, Twins nerf, Pop nerf, Pain Res nerf, Eruption nerf, Clown add-ons nerf, Nemesis zombies nerf, Knight nerf, base BT, base anti-camp, self-blocking gens, hook timer increase. They're all in response to complaints about strong killer stuff. BUT are those complaints well-founded? Are they affecting players who know what they're doing, and actually play both roles? I think not!
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Your attack will get auto-aimed sooner or later, and you'll lose the hit. And yet, the non-lunge basic attack has a pathetic hitbox, and requires you to be so close that you get fov tech'd for free, and if not then you still might get aim dressed.
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@Autharia said:
The one by the window isn't a god pallet. You drop it and you only have 1 window way out that they have faster access to trapping you there till they break it or you mess up.
You're assuming the killer has a trap power. That doesn't mean anything for all the others.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843032#Comment_3843032
Oh yeah because the map by default only has 1 god pallet (shack)
It's a really, really badly designed tile, even the variations with no windows on the backside. The survivor can just wait inside, and reaction vault for free 3 times, not even having to use the pallet. If you try to push them the other way, where it's an actual 50/50 at the window, they push around to the back, which you can't mindgame either because they see you almost the whole way around, and then back to the same unfair window situation.
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Absolutely not. Those are god pallets, which are bad design because the killer can't do anything once they're dropped. They could have the fastest speed combo in the game (via PWYF, Machine Learning, etc) plus Coup De Grace and Bloodlust 3, and still not get the survivor. So killers have to break them, and then the survivor just gets to the next loop, basically starting the chase over. I don't know how you can call any map in the game "killer-sided" because all of them have at least 1 pallet like this, and many pallets that aren't as strong but can easily waste 30-45 seconds of the killer's time until a right read happens, or they break the pallet. These maps are, by design, made to waste the killer's time.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841399#Comment_3841399
I full believe the chests were put in very intentionally to help killers.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841308#Comment_3841308
I mean sure, you say this but my (of course) anecdotal experience doesn't really match this.
I find pretty much every match where team mates are prioritising chests, we lose and are lucky if anyone gets out. In an ideal scenario they save a toolbox to power through at the ideal time with the repair boost but in my experience they empty the toolbox as they get it, or they just outright leave it if it is brown one so that time was completely wasted.
Otherwise they get medkits which may help but often group heals are the far more efficient option, especially with medics (my preferred role as team mates go down so fast).
I had a team mate leave me caged to open a chest nearby, while we had one gen done with one closest to us at more than half. I am not exaggerating at all and while this is a particularly egregious example, the lack of any real MMR makes this kind of thing far more common than normal matches.
It's like, "Hey! You found a medkit! Now you're wasted time will make up for the teammate you let get hooked for free!" They don't understand that doing gens, no matter what, is the best play. Searching chests, you're risking so much for so little. It literally could give you the opposite item of what you're looking for. But people still do it, all the time and constantly. It's maddening.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3842432#Comment_3842432
2v8 would have been a good chance to let us relive quick scope Slinger
Aka the only way Deathslinger is fun and viable.
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@Ayodam said:
1v4 isn’t balanced, it’s killer-sided
2v8 leans survivor I think so survivors have an incentive to play. A lot of what was brought to this iteration of survivor is a response to (you guessed it) killers attempting to optimize the fun out of the original 2v8 via ######### tactics.
Survivors eventually stopped queueing for 2v8 so BHVR tried to address some of their concerns this time around.
If you did well with Wraith, stick to that killer. If you’re not decent with the other choices it’s probably not wise to experiment in this game mode.
It's absolutely not killer sided. It's survivor sided for the same reasons 2v8 is. Super quick heals, super quick gens, long time to down, ridiculous loops, and weak killers. You are right, that 1v4 is unbalanced. We're a community so dedicated to balance, we're cheering on Demogorgon's nerf as we speak.
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Killer is not relaxing, nor is it normal for you to come back from mistakes.
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I'd say Blight. PC flicks just give him too much power to break into any loop or obstacle and hit somebody.
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Might as well. The killer teammates I've been getting have been absolute garbage. Both roles, actually. Nobody knows how to play. The devs have let this completely uneducated, unskilled (yet still demanding balance changes) type of fan base fester, to where even in a fun new mode, you can't escape them. I'm done.
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No clue. The gens go so fast, 8 of them is nowhere near enough. Whether the killers team up for really quick downs, or split pressure across the map, survivors are always doing multiple gens somewhere. And then they get a gen boost from hooks.
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@Nazzzak said:
I'm guessing because two of the survivor classes (Medic and Scout) encourage staying off gens to get value
Because nothing says "waste a bunch of time off gens" like instant 50% health bar abilities, plus the regular heal speed boost.
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@Alastortheradiodemon said:
Seriously I mean how in the hell did behavior not fix the lobby wait time for killers in the 2v8 mode I mean it's ridiculous and to make matters worse all those quests can't even be done on the killer side and if you struggle playing survivor oh well
I don't see how the queue times are long. It's a garbage mode that isn't designed for killer to win on. You play well, and get nothing for it, because you give the survivors extra gen speed (which default gen speed is crazy enough), and then you're expected to patrol 3 gates and 3 hatches. The survivors just have to play bad, or that's it.
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No team is good enough or coordinated to pull off what you're suggesting.
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You can't please everyone. Tons of people want to play 2v8, as either role, and tons of people want to play 1v4, as either role. I don't envy the devs' position in this instance.
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@LeFennecFox said:
I cannot stand new billy whatsoever even a mediocre billy turns any loop into a death trap if you're not feeding him pallets. His power has near 0 cooldown, some of the best mobility, amazing pallet break, and insanely strong zoning. Atp if you're a competent billy bamboozle isn't even needed you can just curve the majority of tiles with his new speed/initial turnrate.
Absolutely not. His power doesn't work at just any loop. Many loops, but probably not even most. There's just too many possibilities for the survivors dodging that he has to account for. Look at shack, for example. He has the same issue there that Huntress, Demogorgon, and Wesker have when using their powers along the outside. When using their powers, they have the option of hugging the wall of the shack, aiming more outwards to anticipate a dodge, or trying to aim for the middle of both. If the survivor reads them on that, whole chase gets reset. The survivor even has another option of swinging way out, which would leave them more out-positioned, but who cares because the killer misses and goes on a cooldown before they can catch up. Then look at the short, less-linear tiles. Hillbilly has even less options there. And he most certainly does need Bamboozle. A mere TL can destroy his game plan. Hillbilly during Overclock is a different story, with faster speed, charge-up, and cooldown, but that's the point. He's supposed to be more powerful in that mode, not resulting in zero counterplay, but less counterplay. And that additional pressure the survivor gets put under, so does Hillbilly (you need faster reactions, less room for error on positioning, etc).
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/432752/different-views-on-billy
So this is all just my own personal views.
When I think about Billy to me he is objectively better than some of the other Killers for many of the reasons you all mentioned.
When I learned to play Billy I played over 100 games using chainsaw only with speed limiter. It sounds silly but I believe what counts as his “Oni blood” is the feathering mechanic itself. I think most players have a hard time mastering the timing.
Being on console, I'm just not gonna put a ton of work into learning a killer who can just be fov tech'd against when using their power. Killers like him, Nurse, Oni, Blight, etc are "made for PC" killers. Their strength comes from the player's ability to make snap decision attacks within a fraction of a second's reaction time. So it's unfortunate that it affects my judgement on the killer, but I don't think he's super strong under any circumstance. If he was, he'd be played in tournament all the time, and at top MMR. The fact that people aren't playing him there, and you can easily imagine all the counterplay of why, tells me he has too much counterplay to be that strong. Speed and instadowns be damned.
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@Gardhome said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841449#Comment_3841449
He is strongest M1 killer and real nightmare for solo survivors also biggest tunneler and camper
Calling something "the best M1 killer" is like determining "this is the strongest ant I've found." There's just nothing there. And you using emotional buzzwords like "annoying," and saying that ALL people who play Wraith are the biggest campers/tunnelers, isn't helping your case.
@mecca said:
He is overturned. You realize quickly something is wrong when he can start uncloaking and he can still manage to hit you through sprint burst. Unless there is a pallet within 6 meters, he will hit you every time. Nobody defends him unless they are killer mains that enjoy free hits all the time.
That is such a lie. Play him and see how smooth his uncloak/lunge is. Except it isn't, because it's slow and janky, ever since his nerf way back when. I can't remember the last time I got a hit with Wraith that I didn't have to fight for. He's like Freddy or Pig. He's got to fight for every little hit, even at the weakest of tiles. If your survivors have no clue what they're doing, then maybe your experience is different. But either way, we seem to be appraising two totally different killers.
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Are you serious? He actually has the most counterplay in the game. His speed and stealth isn't broken. It's what makes him have an ability, which on occasion leads to him getting downs. His add-ons are much the same, and are some of the best designed add-ons in the game. He's M1 at the end of the day. If you're having issues looping M1s, I don't really know what to tell you. But he does have the most counterplay, and it's simple to understand, especially if you've played as him. Survivors can literally counter everything. He uncloaks at a pallet? Drop it or call his bluff (he wants to 99% his uncloak so you drop it, so he can break it and still remain in cloak), and the moment you do call his bluff, you're in his head at all future loops. Some loops, he uncloaks at a pallet, and you can literally just go around the loop again or detach to another nearby loop. If he's not uncloaking under a pallet at a loop, 90% of the time you can just react and beat him back around to the pallet again. He goes for a body block on you? Look for when he does this, and run to a different nearby pallet/window (because he can't block everything at once). If he tries to vault or break a pallet, you can literally spam vault back and forth, which takes away his prompt, until he's forced to uncloak.
His post-uncloak speed-up/lunge used to be actually good, and now it sucks, always coming just short of hitting people when you really need him to. Because of that, survivors have control of chase, even on short loop tiles, instead of him. He used to be light burnable, but that was stupid and broken, because anyone with flashlights or flashbangs could just stun him for free, to where he'd actually have to hide from the survivors behind a wall while uncloaking. That was pathetic for a killer, hence why it got removed. His slowdown from having to uncloak is also really dang slow, to where the speed boost breaks even at best, and usually is actually worse. He pretty much needs Windstorm/Swift Hunt as auto-include add-ons.
I think complaining about killers as weak as he is shows the skill/maturity of the playerbase. Nurse, and flick Blight/Oni are killers who actually have next to no counterplay, because they just break into any angle, past any obstacles you can think of. But M1s like Wraith, Freddy, Pig, Ghost Face, Skull Merchant? How can you say there's no counterplay? You run a tile in a predetermined manner, using check spots and playing safe, and they literally can't get you. That's who you're complaining about.
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@Wrecked said:
I’ve been playing since 2017 and I’ve been a solo queue player for just over 2 years now and it’s never been worse. Survivors giving up on hook almost every game, disconnecting or just going AFK. Killers refusing to hook or waiting for you to be 99% bled out and then hooking. Hard tunnelling at 5 gens etc etc. I can still enjoy the game, otherwise I wouldn’t play anymore, but it definitely tests my patience more than it used to. I got slugged the other day because I was with a 3-man sabo squad and the killer assumed we were a 4-man and because they were a TTV I asked them why they refused to hook me and they cussed me out but then eventually apologised when they realised I wasn’t with the other survivors and legitimately didn’t realise what they were doing as they were on the complete opposite side of the map to me. I don’t know why, but everybody just seems really angry at the moment. Tunnelling can be a strategy and I understand why it’s happening during some of my games, but I had a Wraith the other night bring Knockout and Third Seal and slug the entire team. It also wasn’t easy to avoid being slugged when you’re playing with randoms and have no way of knowing where they got downed. He brought us to Midwich and had Undying and Thrill with the All Seeing add-on as well, so even trying to cleanse the totem proved troublesome. The match ended with us all being bled out. Where is the strategy? You can’t tell me that Wraith wasn’t deliberately trying to annoy us. It’s just felt so brutal recently.
I read the rest, by you lost me at "tunneling at 5 gens." It tells me what your caliber of team is, which is giving out several hooks before a single gen has been done, when at least 2 should be done after the 1st chase. It also tells me that you don't realize that such a result can only come as a result of survivors looping bad/being inefficient on gens. Instead, you assume that it's all the killer, and all the OP stuff he can supposedly do. Shocking, from someone who's played killer and SWF for 7 years. I get that there's killers who just destroy teams and then abuse that position to be toxic. But aren't those killers just getting lucky? Of all the killer matches you've played, surely you've never had it that easy? So I think you need to look at the real problem: matchmaking. MMR, as it functions now, sort of orchestrates matches. It forces mismatches to hide the imbalance of the game. In reality, when both sides play well, survivors beat killer 9/10 times. But in your average solo match you never see it, because either you're a good survivor and you get dragged down by bad teammates, or you and your teammates are bad, and get forced into a game with a good killer anyway. So I don't like to push stereotypes, but all those toxic Wraiths (it's always him who they play), they act that way because they hardly ever win. They're angry, because the moment they get put against decent survivor teams, loss after loss. That's the experience of most killers. These guys just choose to take it out on other people.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
It's a casual game mode. Stop complaining you aren't winning the SURVIVOR SIDED CASUAL MODE and let the CASUAL GAMERS farm their BP.
Not everyone is playing casual, especially not playing so casual that it's at the cost of winning. That's what these teammates are doing, and it's why putting in totems, and SO MANY chests in this mode was a huge design flaw. They won't even succeed in getting BP by doing what they're doing. Looping, getting gens done, and escaping gives more BP than doing pointless side objectives and then dying.