danielmaster87
danielmaster87
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853990#Comment_3853990
47 seconds a totem is insane from any reasonable perspective.
Not from my perspective. That's only the first totem, and if it's Thrill you break, you no longer have to worry about it.
I feel like most of y'all are either playing dumb with this perk, or you're trying to protect the mega casuals who can't even process doing gens, let alone totems.
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@BorisDDAA said:
It will probably stay for the entire holiday season so another miserable event for survivors.
Miserable is when y'all don't get everything you want. Why don't you get some Christmas spirit.
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Lol, those downvotes. Not surprising on that site.
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Probably not. It's a killer affecting issue.
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I guess they thought he'd be OP if survivors didn't have that much heads up. It works well for Awakened Awareness and terror radius builds, but that's about it. It seems really arbitrary otherwise.
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Blight, Huntress, Singularity. Who knows, at this point? Every killer that can do something besides mindlessly M1 chase is a target.
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Surprising, that someone with such love for this killer would get angry about this nerf but not the others.
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Whatever you do, don't refer to Hens' video of "the best DBD team" (gag) getting held "hostage" by Skull Merchant. It's just about the most biased, casual-appeasing thing you can find.
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The discussions around this killer's strength are usually so casual, it's sad. "His stealth is what makes him broken" and stuff like that. Newsflash, it's his dash attack that's strong, albeit only usable on PC. What this change does not only destroys that power, but sets the stage for future equally bad killer nerfs. Chucky players would rather have less dash distance for more speed, because that makes it harder to react to. If a survivor can simply react the everything the killer does, killer has no agency in chase and has to wait for the survivor to mess up before they can physically do anything. It wouldn't surprise me if they gave this same nerf to Blight's dashes. "But you get the same distance!" But it's slower. The slower a killer is at doing something, the more the survivor can just react to deny the ability. It becomes riskier to use your ability as killer than just being M1 trash, because of the small likelihood of actually getting anything out of it. That resigns killers to basically not being able to use their powers, except against noobs, which is the antithesis to why you would even pick that specific killer over another. They did the same with Wraith, Spirit, and Deathslinger. Made everything that those killers did slower, so that survivors could "react" to what they did, instead of needing to be smart/unpredictable. That nonsensically gives all the power in chase to the survivors, but hey, that's apparently "balance."
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@Chiky said:
Thrill isn't bugged and it isnt even that bad as survivors crying make it seem... it's obvious that those who cry about it have never done any side objectives besides gen rushing...
They don't even know that doing gens is their objective, and is how they win. You overestimate their abilities. But yes, you are right. If they can't even handle 5 gens, they can't handle doing a totem or 2, even when the killer is clearly occupied for like 45 seconds.
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@MaddieMage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853435#Comment_3853435
the devs have said they over buffed thrill and it’s broken which is why eye reverting it. Exhaustion perks in general are not. Stop comparing apples and oranges 🤣
The devs said that to save face. Had the complaints not come pouring down so overblown, they never would have come to the realization that it was broken (mostly because it isn't).
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It never gets easier using his power, unless you're on PC and can break the turn limit with your mouse sensitivity.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
Believe it or not, nurse does indeed take skill to play. Granted, you don't need a lot of skill to destroy everyone in public lobbies, but she undeniably has some skill to play, even if her ability completely bypasses most normal chase mechanics.
It is also a lot easier for the devs to change some numbers to nerf other killers than try to nerf nurse whose power fundamentally bypasses the "rules" of the game, so that's probably why she hasn't been touched in a while.
What do you think they should do to "balance" nurse?
She needs a rework. It's clear that the devs are not doing the path of least resistance, which would be buffing other killers until they're Nurse level or near Nurse level. So instead, we should just take her down. Other killers have to do so much more to get the same amount of reward she gets, because she can just go through walls and floors. Maybe when all killers are "decent," none will be, and then we'll finally get some long-awaited killer buffs.
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I literally cry laughed at the Chucky change. Nothing makes sense anymore.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853895#Comment_3853895
I'm having one of those movie moments where tears come to my eyes as I say in surprise and gratitude, "You understand me." lol
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854075#Comment_3854075
Exactly. The casualest of the casuals are on console. And we are not a small group.
That new anti-self-healing Houndmaster perk is miserable in solo queue on Switch. Can't get healed and can't heal myself because those skill checks don't go away like with Merciless Storm. It feels like console is never taken into account, for either role. I'm still upset they removed the QoL button shortcuts that made things so much smoother on console, like clicking the sticks to go prev and next through characters, or the button for accepting an invite. They go backwards in terms of providing console players with a decent experience.
Lightborn is a minimize-the-frustration-of-already-playing-at-a-huge-disadvantage perk for console. Like Unrelenting, which feels like a requirement for playing killer on Switch, and I have seen a lot of Switch killers run Unrelenting. At this point I'm surprised when they're not running it.
And I don't deny that there's lots of casuals on consoles. Half the people I message like, "Why'd you do that play?" or "Why'd you give up?" are like, "Shut up, bruh! I pleh how I want!" and don't ever have an intelligent conversation bar trash talking. So I understand that aspect, right, but I don't accept people saying that, "Because lots of casuals are on console, we shouldn't care about their players." 1) They only use the "Don't balance around casuals argument" when it suits their narrative, because they usually argue in favor of that. 2) I've seen my fair share of ultra casual PC players as well, especially all these streamers (big and small) who are super toxic and always have some excuse for a loss, usually having to do with the killer.
But the auto-aim on killer and the non-smoothness of the skill checks as survivor (I have to like jolt my whole arm to consistently hit BNP skill checks) on console makes perks that affect those things way stronger against console players. 360s too. You think players with thousands of hours are still "falling" for this stuff? No, they're getting screwed over by the way the game's operating. Even the perks that help against that stuff are bad. Unrelenting apparently doesn't grant the miss reduction if you hit into an object. It only grants it if you swung at the air. The game's design is just really bad all over.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854073#Comment_3854073
yeah. It’s not like you ever see that from the other side.
cough Windows cough
The Windows hate is stupid. It doesn't make survivors into better survivors. It lets them plan their route. They only loop as good as they know how to take advantage of that. The killers wanting it nerfed are basically hoping that they'd go against survivors who lack map knowledge, which isn't skill, it's chance. It's matchup RNG. And ironically that's the same thing that makes killer look strong when it's not. You can get countless 4ks as long as the game keeps giving you people who don't know what they're doing.
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@TragicSolitude said:
I play on console. I struggle like hell to get a down on Switch. Between input lag and how difficult it is to land a single hit on a survivor, I run Lightborn 100% of the time because any attempt at a blind against me is pretty much 100% guaranteed. Even mid-chase I will lose all visibility before the game registers the fact I looked away immediately.
If I don't have Lightborn, then I counter blinds by staring at a wall and refusing to play. Because there's no point in participating.
Nerf Lightborn and watch console killers either stop playing or slug all 4 survivors the moment blinds come into play. If that's other survivors' idea of a fun time, I don't get you all. I much prefer not having killers 4-man slug. I only attempt blinds for challenges because that's exactly what killers start to do if survivors get blinds, and it's not fun. I hate those challenges.
Yeah, it's funny how they're always talking about killer stuff being OP because, "We have to think of our casual players!" But when it comes to console-specific issues which break the game for us just based on our platform, "Tough luck! We shouldn't change the game just for you!"
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/434503/lightborn
Sure. Just as soon as they unbuff flashlights to require timing/skill again, and give flashbangs actual counterplay.
Real talk - lightborn is fine. Let's look at the long list of things survivors have that have zero counterplay before we nerf even more counterplay from killers.
Sorry, we don't do that here.
We talk about all the perks that killer has that actually do meaningful stuff, instead of just exist for fun, and talk about how they supposedly need nerfing.
But getting free flashlight saves from super late timing? Silently flashbanging a killer through a wall or the back of their head? How dare you critique such fair gameplay!
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@AlexXHunter44 said:
Are you really complaining about an entirely fair perk 😭 I'm dying.
They've complained about less. They're mass complaining about a hex, which doesn't do anything if you gen rush, as we speak.
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@Saiph said:
alot has happened over the years with the community itself especially both sides of killlers and survivors. The game is more survivor sided for sure but also it depends on the type of killer that makes survivors go against which makes situations killer sided.
Every indicator we have shows that the game is killer-sided. Every single killer is above 50% killrate right now, most of them around 60%, while survivor as a whole has 40% escape rate. The devs themselves stated their goal was to increase the killrate from 50% to 60% over the years. So no, that is factually wrong.
And before you speak about sweaty 4-man SWFs, this is not unique to the survivor side, on the killer side sweaty Blights and Nurses achieve THOUSANDS of winstreaks with them, something even tournament SWFs can't rival. I have yet to see a single other multiplayer game where such winning streak is allowed.
Yet, paradoxically, it is true that the game has become harder for killers. Do you know why?
It's not because of balance. It's because the casual playerbase has left. The game has almost 30% less players now than in 2021. So, before, the game was survivor-sided, but you were playing against 200-hour potatoes who were just enjoying a game and didn't care about winning. Now, these players have left, and what remains are only the long-time, dedicated players with thousands of hours and who often approach the game as a tournament. Even though the game itself is killer-sided now, your chances of winning are much lower than in the past, simply because you get tougher opponents.
This game's approach to balance & fun should be reconsidered completely. Our collective goal should be to make the game more casual and beginner-friendly, not necessarily more balanced.
How do you not see that that's a bad metric? A 50-60% kill rate means draws all day for killer, even if you personally don't escape a lot as survivor. You won't, but 2 of your teammates will. And we know that survivors feed the killer free kills all the time.
Those killer win streaks are another extremely misleading talking point people like to use. "So because some players, which I can count on 1 hand, have been able to do large killer streaks, killer is OP." They're an anomaly and a fluke. No other killer players but then have been able to get streaks like that because they don't have the astronomical luck these guys have. Forget skill. All it takes is going against 1 decent survivor team to take your whole streak away. So there's no skill to it, in the grand scheme of things. They just keep getting lucky to be matched with subpar teams.
I don't think it's the casual survivors that have left in droves. I think it was a lot of higher level killers who got fed up and quit, or switched roles. Without the top level killers, the mid-level killers became the new top, and had to deal with all the unbeatable/toxic SWF teams and really good solo teams. And soon, those killers gave up too, forcing the next level down to shoulder the burden. And so on. You see the issue? Killer isn't balanced at high level; you're playing to lose. The survivors who quit the game over mini little killer buffs, forget them. The only killers who are left in the game are a resilient elite who may or may not have a screw loose, myself included, so they're gonna beat most teams. They just won't beat most good teams. The survivors that remain, however, are low level, and some are still beating/almost beating these killers, because of how many base buffs and unnerfed perks they've got. They just keep winning and thinking they're good because MMR isn't shown, the gens go too fast, and the tools killers have are so much weaker than the tools they have.
I'm still aghast at how people can still insist that the game needs to be pushed more casual. It can hardly get more casual! What do you think has been happening these past 4 years? Making the decision to just not balance the game is the worst thing you could do. And what's funny is people who say that aren't even consistent with their views on the game. "Don't balance the game, but don't make killers too strong! Throw balance out the window, but make sure survivor is a fair!" It's people claiming to be casual but still caring about balance that gets me, because it destroys their own argument. And nobody sees it.
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@GeneralV said:
Shoulder the Burden is not a problem like Thrill is.
We'll just agree to disagree.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853341#Comment_3853341
I think the real answer is far simpler... balance in DBD is hard, because most players are not top level players.
Is all well and good blaming the casuals, but the casuals make up the bulk of the playerbase, which means their experience is just as, or arguably more important than the top tier players, which a lot of players in this forum are.
Why is Dracula getting changes to bounce between strong/mediocre constantly? Why is Pig on a watch list, yet Nurse isn't even being blinded during charge a blink to stop her exploiting auras to give free hits? Why did Skull Merchant get nuked to oblivion despite high level players agreeing she was mid at best? It's all because the bulk of the player are casuals and have different issues the top level players.
Extremely powerful hexes like Thrill are not really a problem for really good survivors, cause they know the totem spawns on every map, they just check them and pressure at the same time... no worries. If not, just hammer gens, no problem. They could deal with old Devour Hope Demogorgon.... but your average pub lobby could not deal with Devour Hope Demogoron... a lot couldn't even find the totem, let alone coordinate with their SoloQ teammates to cleanse it.
Most casual players are players taking silly builds, doing challenges and not taking medkits with stims or toolboxes with BNPs and all the strongest perk combos. If you run an entirely off meta build and go vs. this build... it's very hard to not just die, even if you play exceptionally well.
I find it hilarious that Devour Hope Demo got nerfed, and then every killed got buffed to be able to do the exact same thing, but the fact of the matter is the only way to deal with Hexes like this is to gen rush faster than the killer can catch people (which is basically escape before hook 5 or die), or being in an extremely coordinated and skilled team that manages to survive in chase long enough vs. the most lethal killers in the game and use those windows well to successfully pressure hexes AND keep it going to then complete 5 gens.
TLDR: A simpler wqy of looking at it... If 20% of the playerbase at the highest levels can just about handle it and the other 80% of the playerbase get smoked repeatedly by it... is it good for the life of your game?
I just can't accept the premise. You're forsaking the high level players' fun in favor of the low level players' fun, which literally no online game does besides this one, through what I would casual-centric balance, which is an oxymoron.
The fact that you even mention Demogorgon hex builds shows how low the bar has been set. That wasn't a big threat in the game at all, because I literally never saw it. But because Joe Schmoe on the forums must've complained about it once, they nerfed Demogorgon instead of solely buffing him. The same thing that made that combo mediocre is the thing that makes current Thrill mediocre. If the killer's guarding totems, rush gens. If he's not guarding totems, do them. If he's mixing it up, you mix it up. So players are just smart enough to recognize, "The bones that glow kill me somehow, and now I must complain on the forums about it." but they're not smart enough to even come close to finding this very simple counterplay. So why reward them, and punish the skilled players?
Your issue may be with MMR. The issue isn't always about balance alone. MMR is meant to keep the noob/learning players away from the high level ones until they're ready. If matches are happening as you say, where the killer always knows what they're doing with strong perk combos, and the survivors are always clueless running meme stuff, that's a mismatch of the system. However, this game is unique in that the average survivor player is really low level, and the average killer is pretty darn good. So even in a flawless MMR system, eventually bad survivors are gonna be put with good killers, and get stomped. So what do you do? Punish the skilled players to spare the casual ones? It doesn't seem fair to me. But it's what's been happening in this game for 6+ years.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853347#Comment_3853347
it takes 45 seconds for a totem to get cleansed, that’s not taking into account that there are multiples killers that can interrupt like doctor and the progress on the totem regresses to nothing. The gens also have to get done, people need to be unhooked and healed. The perk is broken and makes totems uncleanseable. But ofc the same person that thinks the gen kick meta with eruption was fine and that all killers are weak defended stuff like this
Okay, so the killer interrupts the totem. Then what? He's chasing the survivor, and the other 3 are on gens, whereas if he was playing without hexes, he'd at least be pushing that survivor off a gen instead. Those gens should be getting done in no time. Y'all's problem with framing all this killer stuff as OP is that y'all give survivors no faith. Maybe you're right to. But if they can't multitask, or have game sense, or strategize, then maybe they deserve to lose. It was the same with the "gen kick meta." Survivors just let the killer do whatever they want, and don't ever punish, and then blame the killer for their loss. You tell me how an M1, like Wraith, Freddy, Pig, Clown, Ghost Face, is gonna beat 4 good survivors who know what they're doing. I don't think ALL killers are weak, as Nurse and Blight (at least on PC) are able to hold their own, but that the role itself is weak, because if you're not playing those 2 killers, you're not beating a good team. The time equation of the game won't allow you to.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853347#Comment_3853347
We all are aware that this can be exploited combined with other perks and actually impossible to counter with specific killers (as per the Otz video), so unless you propose completely working certain killers and other perks so this one Hex can have an excessively buffed cleanse time attached to it, then the obvious solution is to fix the broken perk.
This isn't just high reward, it is literally an unwinnable game condition for unscrupulous players who will take advantage of broken perk combos/killers and again, you're not supposed to be almost guaranteed that your Hex will stay up. You don't just get to mitigate the risk and the fact you have to run this to support an incredibly strong and game changing perk like say Devour is neither here nor there.
It is completely broken and should never have gone life in the first place.
Because your definition of "counter" is basically making it to where the killer's perk is destroyed and can't physically be used. We already have a counter, no nerfs needed. It's doing the gens so fast, because the killer has no gen defence, that the killer doesn't have time to use their hex perks. You can do 5 gens against a killer who has no gen defence, and keeps wasting time guarding totems, by the time he's got 5 hooks. So that counters Devour, and if the killer isn't guarding hexes because he sees you're just rushing, you can then do the hexes. It's quite simple. I don't see how this is unwinnable.
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@XombieJoker said:
As a killer main, I love seeing delusional killer players complain about nerfs that are quite sensible all because they're bad. Thrill def needs to be nerfed as forcing a 45 second cleanse that is easily interrupted is dumb. Tombstone and Fragrant add ons needed their requirement doubled because there is twice as much evil in the match with emphasis on stalking from FAR AWAY. Drac's extra 3 second cool down for hellfire is countered by, drumroll please……NOT MISSING. Some of you just need to get better at the game or get better at coping with you're not gonna be the super star you think you are. Or yall can waste 10 mins slugging the last 2 survivors cuz you want to ensure the 4k
They're not delusional. They see the change for what it is, a knee jerk reaction to survivor complaints. I've lost to a Thrill build exactly once because of the buff, and it wasn't even the build that made us lose. Dracula's hellfire is actually terrible. You can't just aim with it. The survivor pretty much has to run into it, or be stuck in an animation or a place with no room to dodge. And then complaining about the 4k. Survivors have held killers in games longer than they need to, just to style. Do you hold them to the same standards?
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@Azarath415_YT said:
No one is getting compensation for any possible changes in DbD because it's never happened before as far as I remember in my 2-3 years of playing DbD and we don't need compensation for everything in the game. It's just that simple
Survivors have always got compensation when they got a nerf or killer got a buff.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
Why on earth would you think anyone is entitled to "compensation" because something that is completely broken is corrected lmao?!
A lot of people in these discussions seem to forget Hex perks are high risk/high reward. If you bring Devour for example, you aren't simply entitled to 5 stacks, sometimes your totem gets found and others you do indeed get to mori everyone. This is the trade off with running Hex perks.
Be grateful the totems don't spawn next to gens where survivors spawn or other very obvious places like they did years ago!
Tell me how it's broken. Tell me how a killer is gonna patrol 7 gens and 2-5 totems, and not give up any time or pressure for it. Explain how survivors are mentally juggling more stuff and using more game sense than the killer in that scenario. And I'd agree with you, that hex perks are high risk/high reward. So why be so against them being strong? Like Undying, Thrill is a hex perk... to protect another hex perk. That's like having Bond AND Empathy as survivor, pretty much a waste of a perk slot. But y'all still want to complain about the killer having protection for their perk which gets destroyed forever once cleansed.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852468#Comment_3852468
The game will and cannot be balanced. Not sure why this is still being chased. You can't balance a game like this in a meaningfully competitive way.
And this is why the comp side of dbd is why there's so many meta problems and such. Remove the comp side of things, and its actually a pretty fun game.
And lol, the claim is still there. Would just rather the 'other objectives' be fair and not something broken that some players apparently can't win without. Skill issue, indeed.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852567#Comment_3852567
BHVR is abysmal with their 'nerfing's'. I hope Thrill isn't tossed in the Grave also, just adjust it BHVR. Just an adjustment. Please you gotta get this one right.
I have a feeling we agree on many things, but we come to completely different conclusions. I think the game can be balanced, and I think the reason it hasn't is because the devs haven't even tried. They're taking advice from the most basic, ultra casual, no intention of improving, immersed players. They're not taking it from people who know what they're doing, and when they do, it's only survivor biased stuff.
Thrill kind of proves this. Nobody was using hexes before the buff. When a killer buff happens, it's exciting and shakes up the meta game, or at least gives people that hope, so they start experimenting with the recently buffed perk. But suddenly, after years of being a mechanic in this game, survivors have decided that killer getting to use their hexes, which are permanently destroyed if cleansed, are OP. I've lost to exactly 1 killer who was using a Thrill shaman build, and our loss had nothing to do with the build, and everything to do with playing bad/giving up. That's actually the reason why most survivors die to killers they have no place dying to. But nobody sees it.
So if we just accept that killer perks can't be strong (they're just there), and don't push back against these nerfs, of course the game will never be balanced. It's not using skilled, experienced play as a basis.
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@Triplehoo said:
As I have began to play more and more killer, I have seen survivors do things that had me go "Seriously?!? What are you doing?! Don't do that!". Like after I've hooked a survivor, I haven't gone away more than probably 5 meters, when someone unhooks them. You can wait for longer before unhooking. Wait at least till you don't hear the terror radius anymore before you go unhook.
As a killer, who actively tries to avoid tunneling, it just baffles me how so many survivors just throw themselves in front of me. They start to run immediately when they hear my terror without knowing where I am. And many times I have been accused of tunneling… Usually by SWF's who wear the same character and skins. Since us Killer players do not see individual hookstates on survivors, accidental and unintentional tunneling does happen from time to time. Are there players who start to tunnel intentionally right in the beginning? Yes, there are, but I can safely say that those players aren't majority.
But the fact is, if you try to play nice and fair as a killer, it usually means you're in a disadvantage from the beginning and there is a 75% chance that you will not get any kills during that game. Especially if you're going against well coordinated team or players who know what they're doing.
You're correct. Something that would help against unintentional tunneling would be letting the killer see individual hook states. But apparently people don't want that, because it would "encourage tunneling" even though people would tunnel anyway. All hiding the hook states does is punish the players who aren't tunneling, and forces the players using the most mental energy to have another thing to worry about.
And in a game that forces you to tunnel, because the math of the game says the killer doesn't have adequate time 10/10 times, it's a mechanic that arbitrarily impedes the smartest, most efficient, strategy-using players. If you're playing CoD, right, and you're playing team death match, first team to 100 kills win, would you just hide the scoreboard so that players can't look and see how much effort they need to put in to still have a chance to win in time? Because that's basically what this is.
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@Kerkvlerk said:
I dare to say that most of the tunneling that people actually mean is like this:
More then 50% of the time where the killer tunnels in my game is because survivors unhook TO FAST you can hang there for 70seconds per health state yet people wanna unhook in 0,1 second in the killers face for some reason. What do you expect the killer wil do?
Or the unhooked person who is body blocking a hit for someone while on last hook stage that afterwards yelled the killer tunneled?
As a solo survivor i try to play as optimal as it can get but i see so many people just running around without a clue and i am not talking about people with 100h or something but even people with 2k - 3k hours that should atleast know something about the game.
Also some people also confuse tunneling with the fact they died first… but in reality the killer went to 3 other people first.That's what I've noticed with experienced killer leaning players vs experienced survivor leaning players. They to completely separate conclusions of what went wrong with a survivor match. The killers usually say more objective, survivor accountability-based stuff like, "They just weren't efficient on gens. They were too altruistic." Etc. But then you hear the survivors all say the same thing: "It was the unfair killer/build we were facing. That's OP!" Never a mention of their own decisions during the match. Not one.
Survivors will ask for the most ridiculous BS with their buffs, like "We should be on hook 10 more seconds, because gens take 10 more seconds!", they actually get the buff, and we think "Surely they won't be able to lose now, because they have such an advantage at base." And then they just don't use the buff to their advantage. Like you said, rather than waiting til second 69 to get the person off hook, they do it immediately even after the killer's been seen going back to hook. It's survivor buff appeasement, except they don't even use the buffs, and then ask for more.
And then they cry "The killer tunneled me out!" just because they're the first to did. I die first all the time, sometimes from pushing gens while death hook and injured. Want to know why? Because I'm the only threat on the whole team, and am quite good at looping but not enough to where I simply can't get downed. So the killer goes on a big long chase, which should be game-losing, without any fear that the remaining gens will be done. My teammates will simply heal up, and when I'm dead, then they'll start working on the remaining 2-3 gens. But not before then, oh no!
And who is playing that badly? Mostly noobs. But also, the survivor leaning, multi-thousand hour players. They can have that much play time, and their gameplay and thoughts on balance are basically similar to a complete noob's. The survivor gameplay loop is so simple compared to killer's yet they think that just because they've played a lot, that makes them good at the game. They're not. They go down to Pig every 30 seconds, they complain about Ghost Face, and they say killers having aura perks is unfair. So I don't know how you get that many hours in a game and you're that clueless, but these guys have managed it, and they always happen to lean survivor.
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@mecca said:
Theyll never nerf tunneling because it's a game design decision for killers to have a fail safe. Bad killers use tunneling as a way to win. The minute a match seems hard killers will switch to tunneling to win.
But they have. They can hardly nerf tunneling more. Survivors get free BT/Haste off hook, and usually use it offensively. Even though tunneling is the best play the killer can do, it's not as if it's a massive time cheat. It's more like the "least bad" play the killer can make, because baseline the momentum they get from injuring, downing, hooking, chasing, is just crap. The game doesn't slow down at all. It only slows down when 1 person is dead, because they can't do gens anymore, nor escape, shifting the pressure/responsibility onto the remaining survivors.
So it's not just bad killers who use tunneling. People like me with thousands of hours, who've figured out in all that time that going for random chases is bad, have instead been conditioned to tunnel. It physically feels bad not to tunnel, because you know you're making an objectively worse play for no added momentum. It's like losing on purpose.
And you're wrong on "switching to tunneling" as well. By the time the killer realizes they need to tunnel, it's too late, because the game will be over in the next minute or two. We know this because sometimes the killer will aim to tunnel, and execute it, from the very start, and still end the game with 4 hooks and 2-3 people getting out.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828717#Comment_3828717
Baseline Second chance meta (DS, Unbreakable) is what it's going to take to stop it. Second Chance meta was the sole reason killers didn't tunnel for the most part or lost the game due to tunneling.
I don't care if you are "punished for doing well" maybe you need to slow down to allow the game to flow a bit more nicely, go kick some gens or eat the stun.
Such a no brainer move rn it's annoying. Yes these perks should be baseline as they were the backbone of this game for the longest time and it will just free up peoples perks to get new builds and have more fun.Y'all aren't looking at the game from the killer's POV at all. You're parodying it. God knows killers want a slower chiller match, but that only works if survivors feel like doing it too, which they don't. You can't just assume that they will.
How quickly are the killers gonna have to down people if DS and Unbreakable are base? That fundamentally destroys camping and slugging, the only shortcuts killers have. Those would need to be like 15-second chases, especially considering people could and would try to use DS/Unbreakable offensively. "Let me force the killer to waste 1-2 hits on me so my teammate can get away after they saved me, and if the killer tries to punish me for that, I get a free self-pickup or stun/rechase." Thus forcing the killer to tunnel, which he's forced to do now anyway, except the forced punishment becomes baseline instead of perk-based. You've got a real noggin up there.
The reason killers play so sweaty and use these strategies is because the flow of the game demands it. There is no way, if the survivors are playing well, that the killer's getting a 12-hook game. He can barley afford 4 hooks at the highest level. Part of the reason being that "anti-tunnel" perks can be used to destroy the killer's momentum, whether he's tunneling or not. Yet there's no killer perk that gives a free Pop or something without downing survivors constantly. No, perks like Pop only work when the survivors are handing out downs constantly. Killers and their perks' effectiveness is based on survivors making mistakes, but survivors get to massively punish killers with their perks even if the killers are making the objective best plays.
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Maybe y'all just need to get good against slugging and tunneling. It's not easy for killers to simply execute those strategies. Everything has to go right for them for it to work. There's plenty a survivor team who could not care less about facing that. So you can learn to overcome it too. Your altruism matters way less in those scenarios. If the killer is tunneling, you can just rush gens, hook trade at the last possible second each hook stage, and 2-3 of y'all will probably still get out, as opposed to none. With slugging, as soon as you notice the killer's going for it, y'all can quickly move to heal each other, faster than the killer can actually down you, if you're giving decent chases. See, you can't just hope that the killers play nice for y'all, or that the devs nerf them. You have to improve as well which, reading the tone of most of the posts on here, most survivors don't consider.
And that's the smartest thing you've said, or could suggest: the killer needs reasons to spread hooks, or they won't. Killers are encouraged, not by the devs but by the game they've designed, to go for as many kills as possible with the least amount of hooks. It's why you see less and less killers with 10 hooks and 2 kills, and more killers with 2 hooks and 2 kills. Not only is it becoming impossible for killers to get large amounts of hooks before match end, they're beginning to accept that they'll be getting a loss or a draw at best, and simply play for the draw through camping and tunneling. Or a crazy all-out slug for the 4k, which doesn't work most of the time.
We came after Distortion because it was the #1 perk that encouraged selfish/immersed survivor gameplay. If the killer is alternating hooks to get 2 players out ASAP, who's he gonna see every time with BBQ? The 1-2 people who didn't bring Distortion. A lot of those people running Distortion would just use it to out-hide their dying team, and get hatch basically guaranteed. Even without those scenarios, it reinforced the idea that killer shouldn't get any info, which is the dumbest take this community's recently clung to. Whatever aura perks the killer brought, Distortion countered it. When Ultimate Weapon countered it, because it was screams and not aura, they nerfed it and made it aura instead. And in general, killer is really starved for very basic info that other games would give them as a matter of course. Killers basically can't hear survivors' footsteps, breathing, or injured sounds, and can rarely rely on scratch marks being accurate. So anytime they're tracking/chasing a survivor and don't have direct sight of them, they have to pray and guess where they're even going.
Killers don't, and have never had, the upper hand. That's survivors. The math of the game when all players are playing at least semi-optimal says that survivors virtually win 10/10 times. There's just no way the killer can end chases quick enough, or stop gens for long enough (we've long since abandoned that pipe dream), to beat the survivors before they're out. So I hear a lot of "There's no reason for survivors to play" all the time. My advice is for those people is to follow their own advice. If you don't like the game, just quit. Now, we don't like how the game is either, but we've got experience and vision for better game to back that up. Most people don't, and would instead demand that the game be tailored around their skill level (very low), with no intention on struggling til improvement like the rest of us have. That's not fair. And the sad thing is the devs do cater to those people.
It's my belief that the game will not and cannot improve until the devs realize they've got to drop those players. Stop caring about them, because almost all of them either play the game for 2 hours a week, or play at such a casual level that their gameplay is not dissimilar to a 5 year old playing it (not doing their objective, running into walls). Either way, there's a reason no other online game caters to those players. It robs the players who know what they're doing of a fun and balanced experience. If a player really cares, and decides to get good at the game, you balance around high level play, so that as they're improving they will reap the benefits of a balanced game. What's been happening until just recently is that the devs have (intentionally?) hid the bad balance of the game behind mismatches, through a bogus MMR system. Killers and survivors were constantly complaining of sweats they couldn't beat, especially the survivors since their solo teammates never improved no matter how much they won. Killers never got easier matches no matter how much they lost. They've just now tweaked the MMR, almost to what it was at launch (near perfect) , so that you're getting survivors and killers of you're own level. It's my hope that when they see that survivors just keep beating killers no matter what, they'll buff killers, and hopefully not leave solo behind either. SWF definitely needs a debuff or something, because you cannot balance for them and solo at the same time. SWF, and MMR giving mismatches, are the 2 things killing the game for us all, and in fact are tricking us into thinking things about the game's balance which aren't true.
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I must be the luckiest man alive, because I've never played against back to back killers who slugged. I think that's the exception, not the rule. That, or mismatches are still happening. Because if your teams are as casual as I'm detecting, you shouldn't be getting killers like that.
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I'd started bringing Counterforce as well. I'm telling you, me and 3 other people who knew how to counter totems, free wins all day. I wouldn't even call TOTH meta, let alone most stuff people call meta. It's literally just noob stomp stuff.
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Isn't that just most killers?
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Hooks not being destroyed forever after a kill. It was just another thing to waste brainpower on which made no logical sense. Even now, I don't think they should have to 'respawn.' They shouldn't be destroyed at all.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
I won’t mention the person but there already complaining that there knee jerk nerfing the perk & is complaining that the survivor meta took years to nerf & there nerfing the killer perk after a week.
completely ignoring that the gen kick meta wasn’t nerfed until 6-7 months laterBecause the "gen kick meta" was propped up by ultra casuals and survivor-biased conmen. It's basically saying, "The killer spends all this time going around the whole map kicking gens, the survivors let him, without taking advantage of the resulting massive time lead they now have, and then blame the killer's build for their loss." Sounds like incompetence and inadequacy to me. You can't handle the killer kicking gens? But when 'most people' believe that killer is the root of all the game's problems, never the survivors, this nonsense just gets accepted as gospel.
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@Yggleif said:
No and hexes will go back to being irrelevant because survivors don't actually want other objectives no matter how much they claim otherwise.
Yep. That claim of there's is now debunked. We're not humoring another objective for them anymore, because clearly they're gonna throw it back in killers' faces and get the change removed. The game will have to be balanced, if ever, in other ways.
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@vBlossom_ said:
No, there won't be any and I advise you not to use this perk in your games.
If you have a lot of 4k your MMR will skyrocket and you'd be paired with more competent survivors.
But if you were reliant on one perk that was busted…. well, you'd have a hard time when it's nerfed.I agree. Killers are reliant on perks like this to win. Because the game's not balanced for them to win using regular stuff. Do you really think it's only noob-ish killers who complain about this stuff? Will you not even consider that in matches where both killers and survivors are actually playing well, the survivors have the advantage?
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@radiantHero23 said:
Thrill is hopefully getting nerfed because it's straith up too strong.
Not because players of one role complained about it.
Players of both roles complain about it with good reasoning.
If killers are really complaining about it, I truly question what they have to gain, because it's not "a more balanced game." Most of us are in agreement "the gens are too fast!" So then why would they ask for a side objective perk to be nerfed? It spells absolute nonsense. I don't even think they believe in what they're asking for.
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There won't be. Nerfs only get "compensation" if it's for survivors. Even if killers get compensatory buffs, they're done away with sooner or later, because of complaints of "overuse" or "OP." Look at Pop going from 25% of total to 30% of current. "That's too strong!" And now it's back down to 20%, less than its original number AND only does current progress.
The 6.1.0 buffs for killer are probably the best example. What buffs have killers kept from that, in their base and in their perks? Basically none. Those miniscule little buffs to kicking and attack recovery; that's it. But hear it from any survivors, and they're like "OMG! The game became unplayable after that!" yet they still play and complain about the game.
You're also right that these nerfs are getting put in due to complaints alone. There's been little, if any, real argument or testing to justify all these killer nerfs. It's just feelings-based and exaggerated nonsense, talking about "The killer has 3-4 hooks or everyone slugged before 1 gen is done!" and stuff like that. Literally how? How is your team playing that bad? And the funny thing is they still blame the killer, like it's something he did. In reality, I don't think there's any build, strategy, or efficient play that killer can do that's gonna give him anything close to that lead. It's only if the killer is going against way lower caliber teams than himself. Just watch high level survivors vs high level killer. The killer 100% is gonna be sweating from match start to end, whereas survivors are only ever sweating if they're the 1 out of 4 in chase. The rest of the time they're chill, on gens, on hook, or healing. They're not complaining about killers being too strong, at least I hope they're not. It's mostly the casuals, who couldn't buy their team 30 seconds of time if their life depended on it.
So I think killers are gonna get that Thrill nerf, in face of countless losses/tough matches with it against competent survivors, and they'll get nothing in exchange for it. They've been getting nothing all year, and survivors still claim that THEY are the ones getting dealt a bad hand.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852346#Comment_3852346
People say they want other objectives, but the truth is, the state of the game is in no position for it, and the Thrill buff proves it. If it becomes a totem-cleansing simulator, Survivors can't do their main objective, which results in their loss.
Because anytime anything takes y'all off gens, y'all call it a *blank* simulator. The game is in position for it. The players aren't, because they're ultra casual, can't multitask, can't strategize, and if anything in the game is hard for them, the devs say, "Well, we can't have that!" and fix it for them.
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Can we please stop pushing chests as a relevant mechanic? I'm begging you, devs. The search time from 8 seconds to 10 was excellent. We don't need anymore. It's just useless side objectives that's a beginner's trap. You get survivors as teammates who would otherwise be decent on gens, and the moment they see a chest, their intelligence and strategy turns off, and they just do it, even if they already have an item or could have brought one in. We saw this constantly in 2v8. It's a beginner's trap.
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It's crutch, but it's not survivors' fault that the perks are crutch. I'm sure you could make similar arguments to killers using gen defence (if you consider it OP, which I don't). Anti-tunnel perks are supposed to be used for anti-tunnel. What you see instead a lot of the time is people using them offensively. "Let me force the killer to hit/down me so that I can use OTR/DS on him. In some really bad solo teams, that's the game-winning play." You need the killer to waste a chase (which DS does) for y'all to have enough time to do the last 1-2 gens. But that's with bad teams. With good teams, these perks are way overkill. "Oh, the killer managed to get 1 hook on us. Let's make sure he never gets another." It's really hard to find a solution for this, because both sides are getting screwed. Hopefully the stars will align and the devs will come up with something that doesn't make the game stupid for 1 side or the other. Because that's basically what base BT/anti-camp did. "The survivors are in a position where they 'can't do anything,' so we're gonna fix it to where the killer can't do anything instead." Some survivors needed those things because they were legit tunneled or camped. Others, the killer just tried to hit somebody, and got body blocked by the person's Endurance, or set up traps near the hook and then they randomly unhooked themselves. These were unsound ideas.
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@CursedPerson said:
Lets list the Negatives for that chapter.
- buggy killer
- search function is garbage
- using killers power is clunky
- dog doesnt feel the best to use or go against
- invocations are basically killer perks
- shoulder the burden is a bandaid
- buff thrill to be oppressive for no reason
Positive:
- character designs are cool
They're not cool. They're "modern."
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If you tbag or emote, you're getting bled out. The killer's showboating on you while in a winning position beyond your control, because that's what you did to him.
Otherwise, he's just being a jerk.
But you're talking about strategic slugging. There's nothing wrong with that. Kills are the killer's objective, and slugging to get the 4th survivor is more kills, more objective. I'm sure survivors would do the 2 more gens (after the 5 have powered the gates) for more points and satisfaction.
I'm not even against a CoD/Battlefield style "coward's way out" option to speed up the dying progress on the ground, because I just want people to stop complaining about this. Your position and solution, like many others', puts all the burden of reasonable doubt on the killer.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848494#Comment_3848494
Seriously?
Old dead hard, old DS, brand new part, prove thyself, adrenaline, all nerfed since then at a minimum. Maps have gotten smaller, tile logic reworked to reduce it prevent chaining, pallets are weaker.
winning as a survivor has now become much easier with all the quality of life buffs
They have literally, intentionally, and expressly modified the game balance in the past even two years to make it harder to escape. They literally said so, and have published the stats to prove that they're being successful in doing so.
This is so biased it's obscene.
And they still need nerfs now, except Adrenaline. They may have reduced map size and tile chaining, except Suffocation Pit, Azarov's Resting Place, Crotus Prenn. Apparently in those places it's fine to put jungle gyms right next to a TL or even shack. But pallet have not become weaker, I'm sorry. The filler pallets are every bit as strong as they used to be, if not more (because the devs like to add more to them from time to time), except for the Coldwind filler pallets. Whatever the devs have said and done, the game hasn't been made easier for killer. I've never had to play this hard just to get draws with killer. This is not unique to me, because it's echoed among the other multi-thousand hour players.
Maybe it's the MMR finally working, that's giving legitimate same-level opponents as ourselves, that's revealing the massive imbalance of the game? I tell you, it will make kill rate drop by at least several percent, if not push away killers. I already started my break, because I tried for 2-3 days to get a fair match, and didn't find 1. All the survivors actually knowing what they're doing makes it a sweat fest no matter what. Before, I'd gotten many 4ks (and many losses) with Demogorgon, Nemesis, Wesker, Knight, Skull Merchant, Alien, Unknown. Couldn't get a single 4k with them in this new MMR. It's not as if I'm playing worse, or am in massive need of learning. It's just that the game is not balanced for killer when you go against survivors of your own skill level. You winning is based upon them making mistakes over and over. Or, thinking about this way, making 2-3 reads back to back at tiles.
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@GeneralV said:
Ppl seem to act like shes so strong
This is very surprising, actually.
Skull Merchant is probably one of the weakest killers in the game right now. Hell, I think Freddy is better than her in common scenarios, and that says something.
It is absolutely baffling just how severely this killer was nerfed, when her previous iteration was fine the way she was. If players had just stopped with the petty DCs or hook suicides and had given her a chance, we wouldn't be here right now.
That is why I believe all of her recent nerfs should be reverted, and the rework should be scrapped. Refusing to adapt to something that is not problematic to begin with, just like Freddy immediately after his release, is something that should never be rewarded.
It doesn't surprise me. When it comes to nerfing killers, this community and these devs can be very petty and vitriolic. No one in their right mind would have taken the 2 scanners on drones and changed it to 1. Even after Skull Merchant's been nerfed for like the 3rd time, they still rage quit on sight against her, or say she's OP.
What they've been doing is crutching on 1 example they were given which supposedly proves that Skull Merchant 3-genning is OP. I'm referring to that 1 cocky Skull Merchant main/bully vs Team Eternal match. This was when she had Exposed instead of the new claw traps, but it changes little. That team has got to be the biggest group of fakes I've ever seen in competitive gaming. They don't deserve the "best team in world" title as so many suckers have been conned into believing. 1) They did nothing to split the map, nor '99 the second to last gen, even though they knew coming into the match that he was gonna 3-gen them. They just gave him a free 3-gen. 2) Once they were in the 3-gen, they played laughably bad. They threw down multiple pallets when they didn't need to, didn't use that time the killer spent breaking to push gens harder, and even allowed themselves to get downed and hooked with no added gen pressure in exchange. - Every time they switched to some other teammate when that happened, what were they doing? Nothing. Just walking around, not attempting a flashlight save when in position to, and barely running back to gen to work on it for 5 seconds when they know it should've been 20+ seconds WITH 2 or more people. So that's why a meathead Skull Merchant held "the best team" for 30+ minutes. 4 of me, in my mediocrity, would have been a better team of opponents. Hens' fake excited commentary just tricked people into thinking they were watching something high level. An M1 holding a 4-man on comms at a standstill. What a laugh.
So she should have her nerfs reverted. We should be balancing around players who understand basic strategy and game sense, not people who know nothing and contribute nothing. They're just gonna keep nerfing killers until current Freddy is the most "viable," because they don't understand anything, especially not the real balance issues of the game.
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The biggest thing I noticed is that the drone's scan range will randomly glitch out or something, because it looks like it only goes out 1 meter. So a survivor can just run around the drone and never be hit by its scan, whether you change the direction or anything. I've even tried replacing the drone, and the range is still that pathetically short nonsense. I almost want to say this bug or feature was present before her nerf.