crogers271
crogers271
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Funny thing that just crossed my mind: remember when Prove lost its BP bonus and they nerfed the values at the same time? It's funny that the approach to Thrill has been 'of course we have to increase it for compensation'.
But I think 12% should be fine.
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@Skittlesthehusky said:
hi gang :] i'm back with yet another thread because i enjoy reading people's responses and picking brains, as well as writing college thesis-length posts
as we all know, dead by daylight has seen some significant changes this year. between new chapter additions, to adjustments to reworks, to more community engagement from the developers, to changes made around the core of the game's game-play.
i wanted to ask you all about what you think about the current state of things in comparison to last year's developments. if you want, you're free to respond to these questions to construct your response:
- what do you think was done right or wrong? why do you believe so?
- has your playtime increased or decreased throughout the year?
- how do you perceive the developers' areas of focus on the game? are you satisfied with BHVR's performance (in the context of the game, or the company itself)? how could they improve their relationship with you as a player?
- what is your current experience at your current skill level?
it will be interesting to see what everyone thinks and i'll be happy to discuss things too!
you may propose a strong opinion, but please do not resort to "Us vs. Them" arguments or insults. i intend on this being a constructive conversation. this thread could potentially be useful to give a summarized oversight to the performance of all the changes collectively. if this goes well, i may create another thread at the end of 2025.
(((MY ACTUAL CONTRIBUTION POST WILL BE BELOW THIS iN ORDER TO SHORTEN THIS OPENING POST. PLEASE SEE THE NEXT COMMENT IF YOU WANT MY PERSPECTIVE [wall of text incoming btw])))
Background - I really started playing the game in mid 2022. I played it once when it released, then a few years later, and both times the game had zero appeal to me.
what do you think was done right or wrong? why do you believe so?Modifiers will either break the game or greatly extend its lifetime. It's going to be interesting if things like 2v8 become more common and whether that creates a permanent divide in the player base, or if the modifiers remain brief diversions from 1v4 that keep people invested.
has your playtime increased or decreased throughout the year?The amount of DbD I consume has increased as I've gotten into watching more streamers and comp. Playtime is probably down though, but I'll go in spurts where I play the game a ton.
how do you perceive the developers' areas of focus on the game? are you satisfied with BHVR's performance (in the context of the game, or the company itself)? how could they improve their relationship with you as a player?I come into questions like this with the mindset that video game development is extremely difficult. BHVR is trying to please a wide array of players and there is only so much they can do to adjust the game at this point.
I think BHVR's design goal is correct. Balance is not the be all end all, variety and fun are more important than ensuring every trial is a 50/50 perfect test of skill. If something is a little too strong that's not as important as if something is unfun (I've read other people's comments before mine, but see: Skull Merchant).
Generally, I think they do a good job with this, with the occasional 'how did this get through, do they even play the game' type moment.
what is your current experience at your current skill level?I'll answer this the way I normally answer their surveys 'DbD is both the best, and worst, game I've ever played'.
At its best, DbD feels amazingly tense and every little decision feels like it can be the make or break moment. There's never a moment of comfort and a "win" feels amazing.
At its worst, DbD is a stomp after stomp where I wonder why I'm even playing the game.
The gen kick limit and anti-face camp mechanic (which I think was the end of 2023) are both substantial game improvements.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854612#Comment_3854612
Because it means both questions are invalid.
In the case of Shoulder The Burden, the problem isn't the fact that it's anti-tunnel. The problem is that many killers can't properly leverage the downside of the perk, and the perk gives too much value when multiple survivors are running the perk and are stacking or daisy chaining the perk.
Also, I never said the perk should be removed from the game. My suggestion for having the perk inflict broken instead of exposed, just makes the counterplay more fair for the low mobility M2 killers. The perk is supposed to have a downside that can be leveraged by killers, and exposed isn't a fair counterplay for all the killers in the game.
And in the case of the "does it bring value" question, that is a completely invalid question, because there are many things on the killer side that brings value and has counterplay, yet many people still think it's unfair for survivors. The current Thrill of the hunt brings value to killers, and has counterplay for the survivor.
Others have responded, but a couple of things I noticed.
The problem is that many killersAs a balance issue though, when a survivor chooses a perk they don't know the killer they are going to face. Like healing perks face the risk of hitting a Plague. Even if StB is more useful against certain killers, the survivors don't know who they are going to face when selecting the perk.
the perk gives too much value when multiple survivors are running the perk and are stacking or daisy chaining the perk.I keep hearing this, but don't see how it is true. The survivors have to run four perk slots to do this (or have survivors hiding out or intentionally trying to draw chase, both of which have their downsides). Even if they are getting some value, that's a lot of perk slots to get the value.
And in the case of the "does it bring value" question, that is a completely invalid question, because there are many things on the killer side that brings value and has counterplay, yet many people still think it's unfair for survivors.With thrill its fairly straightforward to explain the value level the perk brings (how long it extends the time), the danger (an interrupt resets the progress entirely), the combinations it brings, and why this creates a problem.
There's also the game enjoyment issue, which is more subjective, but still relevant.
I'm trying to see the same problem here for StB, but it just doesn't seem to be true.
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You're not giving most of the necessary information, but this is likely a scam from someone who is not BHVR (the company that makes this game).
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1: You mention gambling on a perk. That's a huge part of the game. Each induvial trial is not meant to be balanced, its meant to create a lot of variety. Sometimes the advantage is in your favor, sometimes its not.
Now this can go too far. They've definitely had designs were it felt like if your brought the right perk you auto won, if you didn't bring it you auto loss.
Some people don't like it, but there's a reason the game has lasted as long as it has.
2: This applies to individual chases as well. Things like coup can feel surprising like you had no way to counter them, but each chase isn't meant to be perfect. You now know they have coup and can take it into account.
3: In an assym its extremely difficult to give both sides equal levels of counterplay. You mention the pallets and how hard it is to counter something like background player. Well, before background player, what was the survivor counterplay in that situation? As you mentioned, it was incredibly easy to find the survivors.
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It's just trolling. I've seen the same thing from killers to survivors, post in end game chat like a totally different game happened or as a comment on the builds that are getting run.
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@theonryo123 said:
alot has happened over the years with the community itself especially both sides of killlers and survivors. The game is more survivor sided for sure but also it depends on the type of killer that makes survivors go against which makes situations killer sided. Also think about map layouts which can be really bad for killer that makes survivor have the advantage. Also the perks on each side when there’s a thing called meta and both sides want a nerf just because it is getting used too often but reality the whole community use the same perks and tried to deny that they don’t when they do. The community is very hypocritical and also I want to blame content creators as far as pc content creators. They have a way of playing the new chapters for the ptb before live releases and the perks and killer powers sometimes either get buffed or nerfed to the ground way before console players be able to have the chance to test it out. But yes content creators do help the community when they notice a lot going on but at the same time it’s not fair at all for how toxic and hypocritical the community is. Also I want to point out there’s certain things you can’t do on console as much as you do on pc like the movements and how easily it can be on pc but not console gamers.
Well, there's a bunch of stuff in this post.
Title - Nerfs cause people to leave
1: No evidence the game is on the decline.
2: People are always coming in and out of the game. If you have 1000s of hours its normal to move on. You're just waiting for a trigger.
Survivor sided - That's not true.
Meta - The goal of a live service game is to shake things up, keep things different. BHVR's success on that is mixed.
Content Creators - They give their opinion, like a lot of people. Ideally BHVR should be taking in feedback.
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I only kind of liked the first go, really enjoyed the second. I hope it comes back soon, but it still needs improvements.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853341#Comment_3853341
I think the real answer is far simpler... balance in DBD is hard, because most players are not top level players.
Is all well and good blaming the casuals, but the casuals make up the bulk of the playerbase, which means their experience is just as, or arguably more important than the top tier players, which a lot of players in this forum are.
Why is Dracula getting changes to bounce between strong/mediocre constantly? Why is Pig on a watch list, yet Nurse isn't even being blinded during charge a blink to stop her exploiting auras to give free hits? Why did Skull Merchant get nuked to oblivion despite high level players agreeing she was mid at best? It's all because the bulk of the player are casuals and have different issues the top level players.
Extremely powerful hexes like Thrill are not really a problem for really good survivors, cause they know the totem spawns on every map, they just check them and pressure at the same time... no worries. If not, just hammer gens, no problem. They could deal with old Devour Hope Demogorgon.... but your average pub lobby could not deal with Devour Hope Demogoron... a lot couldn't even find the totem, let alone coordinate with their SoloQ teammates to cleanse it.
Most casual players are players taking silly builds, doing challenges and not taking medkits with stims or toolboxes with BNPs and all the strongest perk combos. If you run an entirely off meta build and go vs. this build... it's very hard to not just die, even if you play exceptionally well.
I find it hilarious that Devour Hope Demo got nerfed, and then every killed got buffed to be able to do the exact same thing, but the fact of the matter is the only way to deal with Hexes like this is to gen rush faster than the killer can catch people (which is basically escape before hook 5 or die), or being in an extremely coordinated and skilled team that manages to survive in chase long enough vs. the most lethal killers in the game and use those windows well to successfully pressure hexes AND keep it going to then complete 5 gens.
TLDR: A simpler wqy of looking at it... If 20% of the playerbase at the highest levels can just about handle it and the other 80% of the playerbase get smoked repeatedly by it... is it good for the life of your game?
TLDR: A simpler wqy of looking at it... If 20% of the playerbase at the highest levels can just about handle it and the other 80% of the playerbase get smoked repeatedly by it... is it good for the life of your game?A similar thought, but related to the health of the game:
If there is a build that one side of the game can put on and, then with relatively little effort, win against 80% of the playerbase, its a bad design.
It's kind of like camp / tunnel. It's an incredibly basic strategy that I could explain to a new player that would win them a bunch of games, until they got to a point where survivors would know how to play against it and the killer suddenly gets crushed.
It's not a healthy game design for one side to have 'easy' strategies to execute that are only balanced by 'well, one day MMR will destroy them'.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853520#Comment_3853520
lol. Not even close. Being in a 4 man SWF means exactly nothing. 99% of SWFs Killer players encounter are just chill people who want to play with their friends.
The big issue is that most Killers think that SWF = comp, and it cannot be more far away from true at all.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853215#Comment_3853215
It really isnt. The times I encountered it were rare and even then the value was not really good. Granted, I dont usually tunnel, so it does not affect me that much as people playing with their "strategies". One time a person died because they decided to give up a Hook Stage despite the Killer not tunneling (the person unhooked with Shoulder the Burden was not even on Death Hook).
And when I played against it, a Lara indeed escaped due to it because I hooked her 3 times. But it doees not matter since the Taurie died while only being hooked twice (since she gave up a Hookstate). So the result for me was the same, one of them escaped, the other one died.
There are some streamers who are hyping the Perk up, being the next MfT. And granted, if going against very, very good Survivors, it might indeed be really strong, but it still applies what I have written before - most people dont encounter those teams (and people who think they do are just worse than they think they are…).
And I even think the MfT-comparison is not really good, since using Shoulder the Burden efficiently is harder than just being injured by MfT, even if with both Perks a better player will get more value out of it.
There are some streamers who are hyping the Perk up, being the next MfT. And granted, if going against very, very good Survivors, it might indeed be really strong, but it still applies what I have written before - most people dont encounter those teams (and people who think they do are just worse than they think they are…).The funny thing is among even the edited youtube videos I've seen on this perk the value has been rare as the streamers hyped it.
Streamers hyping a perk is pretty common. Resurgence, Hope, Background Player, Power of Two, We're Gonna Live Forever, etc. all have had their 'look at me get valuewith this perk' window.
Shoulder the Burden isn't bad, it can get value, but I really have difficulty seeing the perk as broken.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853825#Comment_3853825
Because Survivors shiuldn't be able to control ALL the things Killers use to pressure. What if there were a perk that did this for Killers and randomly added hookstages to someone with the most stages? Still fair?
Those aren't even close to comparable, my guy.
It'd be more like transferring a bunch of gen progress from one gen to another, but then making that other gen gain double progress for a while in compensation. Does that sound like a good killer perk to you?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853834#Comment_3853834
Even saying he's here and knowing what area the killer is, is a massive advantage.
Not if you don't know where your teammate is. 'Here' is a useless descriptor.
Also, you're asking the killer to discern the quality of your communications and play accordingly which is not a possible task.
I am doing no such thing. YOU made the assertion that all swiffer is non-casual, which is obviously false.
Beyond that, swf stats include those not on coms so are fairly useless.
You literally just asserted that there are NO swiffers that aren't on comms.
Not to mention, they DONT hit 50% escape rate due to what? Tunneling as a tactic against them. Remove that and they are hitting probably 65-75% rate.
As evidenced by what?
It'd be more like transferring a bunch of gen progress from one gen to another, but then making that other gen gain double progress for a while in compensation. Does that sound like a good killer perk to you?I probably shouldn't, but I'm trying to actually think through ideas of perks that could actually kind of work like this:
Scourge Hook: Divide and Conquer - The most progressed gen has its charges divided evenly among all other non - completed gen. For the next 60 second the gen that lost its progress aura is shown and gains double progress. If the gen is blocked by the entity, the 60 second timer is paused.
Or potentially another way
Grounded - After hooking a survivor, if you kick a gen within 15 seconds, it's progress is set to 0. Survivors gain double gen progress for X seconds, where X is the amount of charges the kicked gen had.
Or to make it more directly comparable to Shoulder the Burden.
My Favorite Gen - Target a gen that has been completed. This gen becomes uncompleted and progress set to 0, and the gen with the least amount of progress on the map is instead completed. This gens aura is then shown and it gains double progress for the next 90 seconds. This gen may not be kicked or targeted by a regression event for the rest of the match.
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To a couple of posters: My understanding of the ratings system below Adults Only is that they are guidelines and recommendations. A M or 17+ rating means the game is recommended for those players, but if a parent/guardian is comfortable with someone below that age playing, its all fine.
It's kind of like R rated movies (staying in American rating system). Someone below 17 can't go see an R rated movie on their own, but if a guardian wants to take them, its all fine. On the other hand, if its adults only, below 18 can never be admitted.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851563#Comment_3851563
Ask and you shall receive
Now idk what you want to learn from this exactly but hey, here it is! (Also @GeneralV , Freddster as requested <3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY_BufsmpBQ
Trickster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM0AEy4eow0
Trapper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfANalYU5MI
Dredge
Notes on the other games.
Trickster - this might have been the weakest set of survivors, though if I understand the meta of Vecna's map, its just ignore the basement so you had a pretty open field to cut them down. There's a point where a flashbang just doesn't seem to work when I thought they hit the timing.
Trapper - I like the change in music from the Freddy game. This game actually encapsulates how I feel as a survivor, lots of killers say 'one mistake and they lose' but it feels the opposite to me. At around 4:15 you're going for the gen, the Thalita tries to escape, but she's easy to hear, so you double back and catch her on the stairs. Boom, basement hook. Survivors actually make a valiant effort to block it, and then even manage a pretty good rescue of two survivors trapped, but its still enough to get you the win.
Dredge - Wow, this was a great game on both sides. Really feel like diving into this one.
0:15 - Miss and a whiff on a bait from Lara. Sets the tone of things that will happen in the game.
0:45 - We catch Meg running the wrong way on the teleport and see that the Yui has a sprint burst.
1:25 - A couple of important things have happened. The Yui ran the loops great and on the shack you try a double back on the Meg which she spots and runs through. It's 40 seconds of no progress and shows the survivor skills in this match.
1:45 - First down, Meg tried to make the next loop, but you win the 50/50 on whether she stays or moves (educated guess - she ran through the first time, so likely that is how she'll play the next opportunity as well).
You then teleported on your own spot, which confused me on the first viewing, but I think you're looking for potential flashlight saves.
2:10 - Within 5 seconds 3 gens pop. Oh no! The dreaded 3 gens for one hook! GG its all over.
2:30 - Tag on the Lara and ignore Meg (the possible tunnel), going for shack to protect gens. If you go for Meg you probably lose another gen.
2:55 - Lara makes a mistake, I think the only one she makes in the game, and gets caught out for a free down.
3:30 - Tag on Yui. I'm not sure why she didn't have sprint burst here, maybe hadn't recovered when she ran to get to this gen. 10 seconds later you are going to get a down on her with a nice remnant teleport.
Teleport to the corner, at this point survivors need 2 gens done and they have progress on 4.
4:30 - The game swings rapidly here in short succession.
You teleport to the hook, at first it looks like no survivors, meaning they are rushing gens.
Then you spot not one, but two survivors and get a tag on each with no unhook.
Then you mistime the swing into the styptic.
Then you turn around and find the survivors trying to do a reset with everyone else. You hit the Taurie and every survivor is injured.
You chase the Taurie, down her, but then get hit by a flashlight save.
Within a span of 30 seconds it goes from looking like you made a wrong call, to the survivors botching the rescue, to you mistiming the swing, to you stopping a reset and having everyone injured, to you get a down, but it being flashlight saved.
In 30 seconds the game swung wildly in both yours and the survivors directions multiple time. This is why I think DbD is an amazing game.
On the flashlight save, you can see the pools of blood leading to the where the flashlight saver is situated, but tough to spot that amongst everything that is happening.
5:15 - You catch back up to the Taurie and down her. Double attempt at a flashlight save, but not succesful. Probably a misplay by the survivors to try for another save instead of taking the opportunity to reset, but easy for the survivors to get flashlight greedy after a succesful save.
5:45 - You don't waste time chasing the Lara and instead protect your gens.
6:05 - You down the Meg. Short chase for cow tree, good use of remnant.
6:25 - Yui times the sprint burst perfectly to waste a swing.
6:40 - You get hit with a bug and trapped in the locker. Not sure on the overall impact as it sounds like the Yui has pallet dropped and anticipated your teleport and vaulted back.
7:35 - You pursue the Meg for the elimination, she does a good job on the loop and buys a lot of time. You look like you're about to get her, but the Lara comes over and tanks a hit with dead hard. Just an outstanding play on her part.
Another gens pops during this.
8:05 - You catch Yui at cow tree for a quick down. Yui has been a mix of amazing plays, but also not having her sprint burst when she needs it.
8:35 - You down the Lara, but Yui is already unhooked. So you have two survivors at this top gen (one on hook), two survivors at cow tree, and progress on the middle gen.
8:50 - Yui is back to being a juicer and gets a whiff out of you.
9:15 - Meg unhooks the Lara. Two misplays by her, no need to unhook, especially while injured on death hook, and she does not immediately run away after the unhook.
9:40 - I felt that blast mine in my bones when I first watched. You hadn't been kicking gens all game and this is just going to take time when you need it.
10:00 - I'm not sure it would have mattered, but you might have been able to make it to the top gen before it popped, but then you probably lose cow tree.
End game 11:00 - You've been getting a lot of free tags at cow tree, but Yui suddenly makes use of the pallets still down here and takes you up to shack.
From here - survivors loop well, but you zone them away from the gate with progress on it, preventing the 3 person out.
Great game. -
@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852954#Comment_3852954
I can probably go over the game and explain my thought process throughout the whole thing (at least everything that I remember lol)
So there's five questions:
1: You see three spread out the hooks offerings, a toolbox, and a flashlight - does that impact how you played the match?
2: At ~2:40 you teleport down to the bottom corner gen, any particular reason you suspected they were doing this one?
3: After the above teleport, you spend about a minute chasing the Claudette. Any idea what the survivors where doing during that time? That's the window I'm kind of missing. It looks like the Sable jumped on that corner gen again, the Yun-jin tried to set up a boon and David basement gen, but I feel like I'm missing something given the time that passed.
4: Is there a point where you feel like 'I've got this'. I have it after getting the down on Yun-jin at 4:25 when a scream causes a boon interrupt and a quick down, wonder if you were confident earlier than that.
5: Compared to the video, how loud is the music compared to the game sounds?
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852881#Comment_3852881
was not expectin this kind of analysis from some one else but it was definitely a pleasant surprise. Bravo!
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852885#Comment_3852885
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/AZ7T0ZYKS9XW/17337136797851964870962500482391.gif
Your welcome, I had planned to do all the games but doing the Freddy one was a much longer post than I expected. I still might get to the others.
The problem with analysis is only having one perspective. I have a pretty good idea what the survivors are doing the whole time, but there's a period in the middle of the game when you're chasing the Claudette that I'm just unsure about.
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@joel84 said:
There are plenty of examples of perks. Perks that are now completely useless and are only relevant for meme builds or that you have to use for challenges. They are nothing more than stopgaps. Hello Meta
What will people complain about next when Trill is broken? You know how developers tend not to nerf something, but destroy it completely.
Noed ? Genregress ? Camping ? Tunneling ? Sluggin ?
That survivors still believe after all these years that killers have to play nice or be good to them is ridiculous.
If there's one thing I've learned these days, it's this: You just have to whine loud enough and a lot before the developers give in.
and I don't think Counterforce will be fine after the Trill nerf. Quite the opposite
Hexe builds will die
That survivors still believe after all these years that killers have to play nice or be good to them is ridiculous.No, people are done asking others to play nice. It's a broken perk, that's why we're asking the devs to fix it.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852731#Comment_3852731
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852783#Comment_3852783
@ Rei Do you, or are you able to stream like… 10-15 games live?
Don't take this the wrong way, because i absolutely don't mean it as an attack on YOU or YOUR
gameplayhonesty.
I dont want to pop any bubbles, but playing 20 games and getting cracked survivors 2-3 games, and only tossing them up is the only issue with these "Ill record my games and prove.' Its still very easy to manipulate.If this is not possible, I'll simply give you the benefit of the doubt. If someone can show me consistently getting the cracked survivors match after match, well…. I'll have a lot of apologizing to do lol.
I'll be looking forward to watching regardless. Thanks for taking the time :)@Shrumpie I laughed out loud at work when I saw you actually did the Trapper game lol. Bravo! You get the Golden Trap Award®!
I dont want to pop any bubbles, but playing 20 games and getting cracked survivors 2-3 games, and only tossing them up is the only issue with these "Ill record my games and prove.' Its still very easy to manipulate.To me this is the thing I always wonder about. Some people seem to think there is an elite MMR that is even above that of streamers, because we can watch them play all the time and they certainly don't get 4 person cracked SWFs every match.
I'll also add, and this is part of the reason I tried to analyze the Freddy game, we can never know for certain what would have happened if we'd done something else. If Shroompy chases the first target he hit, survivors might easily finish two/three gens by the time that chases ends as an M1 Freddy. Then if you're the killer you are just like 'oh, look at how elite my survivors were', not realizing the opportunity you might have missed by pursuing that chase.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851563#Comment_3851563
Ask and you shall receive
Now idk what you want to learn from this exactly but hey, here it is! (Also @GeneralV , Freddster as requested <3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY_BufsmpBQ
Trickster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM0AEy4eow0
Trapper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfANalYU5MI
Dredge
Being the Freddy game is getting talked about I decided I'd try my best to analyze it. I watched it once uninterrupted, then went back and made notes on a second viewing. The survivors here seem pretty solid and have a strategy, but you do a good job of keeping pressure on them.
Game notes: (the matches time here are minus 20 seconds of the Youtube video, which is when things actually start)
Bad start for the survivors in the first 30 seconds, Claudette, the Yun Jin, and the Sable are all on the same side of the map that you have gone to. You interrupt the gens they seem to want to start on. Still, the survivors have a boon up 27 seconds in into the match.
38 seconds into the match - this is a good Killer play, countered by a great survivor play. You hear the gen and interrupt it instead of taking what would likely be a chase to the other side of the map, except this survivor has Balanced Landing and times it great to hit two windows.
They don't know it, but this survivor getting hit wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for them because of StBfL.
50 seconds in, we see the survivors have really good timing on the pallet drops. This will be pretty normal throughout the match, but I think you are right to not worry about mind gaming and just get the pallet out of the way.
1 minute in, you eliminate the boon and now things are interesting. The Yun Jin just got healed. Did they do it at the edge of the boon, or are they on the other side of the map? There are scratch marks by you, so at least one survivor is near and the Sable isn't far. Where you go now is a pretty key decision.
1:10 - You elect to stay on this side, the Claudette runs to shack. She does a good window fake, clearly not a brand new player.
1:25 - Boon back up, worrying, but I think the survivor makes a misplay here, vaulting back into you on z wall instead of just playing along the bottom edge.
1:40 - You interrupt two survivors on this side. Their strategy here is pretty clear, they want to break up this side of the map. They could have popped a gen by now on the other side, but it wouldn't be nearly as valuable as trying to break up this side of the map.
2:00 - Both you and the survivor make a minor error of briefly going for a path that has a wall.
2:15 - They get that gen they've really been pushing for. Right now the survivors are playing this really well, but you're keeping them in check.
You then get the down on Yun-Jin, she misplays the timing a little bit and you capitalize, but the Claudette is already healed up (boon I'm guessing).
2:40 - This is a great read by you. Coming off the last gen, I'd be expecting them to go for the basement gen. You go to the bottom corner gen and interrupt some progress there.
2:55 - You're in a chase with the Sable, first big mistake by the survivors. The Sable leads them to the hook and the David actually makes the save. David invites you to chase and you play it fair and choose to let the tunnel out go. You quickly make him pay with a solid use of the trap preventing him from looping like he wants to.
3:10 - The speed at which you tagged the teleport on the corner gen was impressive, I didn't even really catch you looking at it. David is headed toward an irrelevant gen and you let him go (later we will learn this is the survivor they wanted you to chase). For a moment this looks like a mistake because the gen you teleported to is still regressing, but you catch the Claudette coming in, though she gets away by again having a really good timed pallet stun (her running into you and screaming because of scene partner was honestly very thematic).
3:40 - She greeds the pallet, doesn't waste it, nor even waste time to try and flashlight you. Smart by her. She hits the z wall instead of trying to loop around here though which I think is a small mistake.
4:25 - The screams are just killing these survivors. At this point I think the game has swung in your favor. I think the chase with Claudette really messed up the survivors plans and they have not been able to recover.
5:15 - We grab the David and we see what their strategy might have been. They have a build to make it hard to hook this guy, but you haven't allowed it to happen.
5:50 - You get in a brief chase with the Sable, but quickly transition to pressure the unhook.
6:05 - Instead of wasting time on chase, you tag the Sable finally and everyone is injured or on hook.
6:10 - We get a music break.
7:25 - Deliverance from the Sable. You take your hit on Yun-Jin but then immediately keep the pressure up.
8:00 - Good pallet drop by Sable, she goes to use balance landing so you don't waste time following, and as a gen pops you have aura read and spot a heal so you go to interrupt.
8:25 - Yun-Jin gets tagged trying to hide behind you and set up a sabotage. This kind of looks like a bad play on her part, but really the only chance they have.A good game, survivors played well and you did a solid job applying map pressure and not over extending your chases. We see the ending screen, I had been expecting that everyone but the Sable might be in a SWF, and their offering selection made it look that way. They wanted to try and play for sabotages, but you never let that happen.
If you had actually tried to tunnel the first target you chased, you would have had a much worse outcome (especially if they had anti-tunnel perks, which in this case they didn't). Chasing the Yun-Jin off the start easily could have given the survivors time to finish the two gens they had started on. Not spreading pressure could have let them potentially set up rescues. And the choice of where to teleport at 2:40 had a massive impact, a wrong choice here could have swung it radically in the survivors favor.
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I'd like more chests by default, and generally hate the way offerings work, but two points
1: Survivor perks running into each other is an inevitable design element. Lots of perks become redundant / a waste if another survivor is also running it.
2: There's a lot about the way that perks have been coming out that makes it look like the designers play a different game than we do. In concept, chests should be a benefit to survivors, but many survivors consider them a trap that is just a time waster. I think the devs are worried about making chests 'too strong', but their starting point on chest strength is a lot different than the community.
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@Unequalmitten86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851490#Comment_3851490
You don't have to be publicly traded to have investors. It's a tricky thing really. Steam numbers are healthy but low for a healthy game. You need to consider EA, Microsoft and console players. They make up the bigger portion rather than Steam numbers.
You do need to be publicly traded to have to do things like quarterly reports (unless there is something different in Canada) which was what your post was talking about. Obviously the company has people who have a financial interest in their outcomes, that's true for every company (and in a slightly different way true for every non-profit and governmental entity as well).
As for saying low for a healthy game, no. At the time I'm posting this they are the 27th most played game on Steam. If that is the low end of healthy the video game industry is in serious trouble.
And Epic games, consoles, switch, etc. do make up a far larger portion of their player base, but we can use the Steam numbers as an indicator of how other platforms are behaving. If Steam has a stable / slightly growing player base, what factor would make it different for playstation (for example)? All indicators are that DbD has a healthy, worldwide player base. I want to say the last time BHVR commented on it there are close to a million games of DbD played per day.
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And they can call it Meet Your Maker.
No, wait, that was something else.
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0 counterplay implies that the rest of the game didn't happen. It's not like survivors are guaranteed endgame or have the ability to force the killer into where they are hooked.
Whenever this comes up my thought is: should survivors have some counterplay in the last instant before the killer hooks them? Some little mini game to give themselves a last chance? No, to say there is no counterplay ignores everything else that happened up to that point.
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@For_The_People said:
it seems to be the most challenging thing to implement but, I honestly think that a more successful implementation of MMR matching is probably the only solution.
let’s say for example, the game balances around higher MMR - the argument is that it will make soloQ and casuals even more unbearable in some cases (not all - as @Reinami illustrated with an example of how a nerf/adjustment to shack might make affect higher MMR swf more directly, though may not impact lower MMR survivors (who may not be able to run it efficiently anyway and get downed regardless of the strength of shack).
All of this really leads to the solution truly being making matchmaking more relevant and then whatever changes or balances will affect players proportionately.
Otherwise, what will happen is that the strong swfs will probably find a solution to win no matter what advice or strategies given. The whole slug, camp and tunnel for the win will definitely work.. but on the lower level soloQ and casuals who are the ones that don’t need that strategy done on them to win anyway?
If you want to balance at the top, make it so the top players truly face each other. Otherwise it genuinely makes the game less and less viable for lower level players (like myself).
A killer won’t know who they’ll face so they go in with the intent to face swfs and therefore will want to play with maximum efficiency. Then they’ll realise midway that they are just stomping solos but because some may have lost to swf, pent up anger or frustration leads to them raking it out on lower casuals anyway. These casuals will either stop playing, or in turn, crank up their own sweat builds to counter and thus continues the cycle of misery.
best solution is to improve match making first and then balance in whatever way neededit seems to be the most challenging thing to implement but, I honestly think that a more successful implementation of MMR matching is probably the only solution.BHVR has said that their data shows the MMR pretty consistently matches people of the same skill level, though this is not as true during off peak hours. I think this is generally correct and there are a number of perception issues that play into why people don't think it works:
1: The game has a lot of random factors, in terms of what map players get sent to, how things spawn, as well as the builds that are brought. I used to play support builds a lot but if I ran into a Plague, or got paired with another survivor running the same build, we were in trouble.
On the other end of the spectrum, in soloq once without coordination I and the three other survivors all ran old distortion against a full aura read killer.
2: Early game is massively important. The first chase can really determine the course of the game given its snowball nature. This means a game result can look radically unbalanced just because of the first chase.
Example: I was playing survivor against a Pinhead. I was the first chase target and I took the first hit relatively early and was running to main. Pinhead goes to hit me with a chain and in pretty much a 50/50 guess, I dodge it, then make main. I proceed to run him until 2 gens are complete and he drops chase. If he hits that 50/50 chain he has a massive advantage with one survivor on a central hook and likely 4ks with gens remaining.
3: When the game tips in the killers favor, it tips hard. Survivors start strong, but, on most maps, once they deplete their resources the downs should come quickly for the killer.
4: BHVR has really built 'sweat' in the game, with the ability to take strong addons on either side. So MMR can't tell if a killer who normally plays chill with brown addons and meme perks suddenly decides to throw on a meta build and tunnel.
I think those factors are just some of what play into people thinking MMR doesn't work. This doesn't even get into at how at the extreme levels all MMR systems break down.
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@Unequalmitten86 said:
So a smaller company like this more than likely has investors. These investors require quarterly reports. Now the thing I noticed is that special events and sales happen towards the end of the quarter. This will boost player count so they can go to the investors with high numbers. Not only that cosmetics more than likely pull in more money, these are released frequently but the event linked items again towards the end of the quarters. Notice how now the tomes are actually back to back with special events mixed in. This to me indicates there was a huge player slump and they need to keep that flow. Most gamers of the current age have fomo and it's all about the limited edition cosmetics. However these past Halloween ones have all of you looking like glowing targets for the killer but you look cute so that's what matters.
It isn't about reviews its about money.
Third so if someone wanted to find out what the reviews where all about the can go and pull it up on any creator and see nicely edited video's because even negative reviews is good publicity. These nicely edited reviews will show wins with ease from either side having people question why the negative reviews. Then a person maybe inclined to purchase to see for themselves.
It is a confusing cycle but for the current base if you stop spending money then you will see real changes.
BHVR isn't a small company unless your definition of small is everyone who isn't AAA.
They aren't a publicly traded company and I am not familiar with Canadian law but it does not seem like they are required to release quarterly reports. It looks like some companies (Netease) own a minority share of BHVR.
Public steam numbers of their player count are very healthy.
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@Langweilig said:
I got 3 ideas:
- It goes back to 10% and it doesn’t spawn a hex.
- It gets nerfed to 12%
- It goes back to 10%, but gets a secondary effect like for each hex/dull totem the generator repair, healing and sabotage speeds are reduced by 3%.
I hope for the third one the most, because it would make it a decent/strong perk and it could be played without requiring other hex perks to do something.
Most likely is a revert back to 10% or a nerf to 12% if we are lucky.
Don't killers just combine number 3 with Penti? Whatever the survivor do you as killer have substantial slow down.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851062#Comment_3851062
I am not saying that the perk is too strong or too weak, I'm just saying it is not an anti-tunnel perk like most people thought at first glance. It will affect even killers who spread hooks.
But I don't know how you could do that. If you gave it a condition like 'if more than one survivor has been hooked, StB deactivates', it would be absurdly weak. And if the goal was to completely and absolutely eliminate tunneling, like if that was BHVR's new design philosophy, then they'd go with a basekit mechanic.
Like Unbreakable is a anti-slugging perk, but it doesn't mean the only time you get value out of it is against a full out slugging killer.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850962#Comment_3850962
This is not a "magical hypothetical scenario" at all? It will literally work in every scenario that doesn't go 1-1-1-1, I just gave one example across hundreds of possible ones. In particular, it can also happen in 2-1-0-0, and now you have 2x more chance that one of the unhookers has the perk. It won't happen every game sure, but empirically I'd say the perk already gets used ~1/10 of the time against me right now and I don't tunnel, and it has a game-changing effect when it happens. (To be fair though, it was counter-productive for the survivor team half of the time, so right now it's not frustrating to play against, but it could be in the future)
What do you mean by:
there's a much much greater chance the one person who brought STB is already hooked in this case
Given a 2-1-1-0 scenario, the chance that the person who brought STB has not been already hooked, is simply 25%. 1 out of 4. That's quite common.
It won't happeneverygame sureBut if a perk doesn't get used every game, it should have more value in the instances in which it does.
In particular, it can also happen in 2-1-0-0, and now you have 2x more chance that one of the unhookers has the perkAnd if the survivor A or B have it, its a dead perk slot.
The important question is: what else might the survivors have been running? Did the survivor at two hooks run StB instead of something that would have helped them looping and maybe they never would have been caught? Maybe they would have had something like Resurgence that would have made it easier for them to be healed before the killer got to them for the second hook?
And even if want to imagine that the survivors at zero hooks are the only ones with shoulder the burden, what did they give up to use it? Did they play in a cautious manner instead of slamming gens because they wanted to be sure they would be safe to use it? Could they have brought gen perks to get gens done faster so that one survivor being on death hook doesn't really matter? Or maybe they could have brought something like babysitter so when the 2 hooked survivor gets unhooked, he can still get away from the killer and wastes even more of the killer time.
Shoulder the burden can have value of course. But perks should be able to get value and to evaluate them on a balance front we need to compare them to the other options survivors have and the pros and the cons. Right now it seems to fall into the category of situational with a high possibility of no value.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850887#Comment_3850887
I'm all for anti-tunneling, but this perk is not the way to go.
It gives the anti-tunneling ability to SWFs, instead of soloQ survivors.
SoloQ survivors will have to rush the unhook in order to not get it stolen by their teammates, unhooking too early and effectively making camping and tunneling worse.
Meanwhile, BHVR will think tunneling is not a problem anymore, because they have introduced a perk to fight it, even though it does not address the problem.
But that's just generally true of pretty much any activation perk in DbD. Deliverance, Wicked. We're Gonna Live Forever, etc. all rely on rushing an action before you might wish to because otherwise a teammate, who doesn't know you have it, might make a completely logical play on their part.
I think there are a couple of ways BHVR could relatively easily address this, but they've chosen not to.
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You can hide the chat.
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@Saiph said:
The way I understand it, the truly game-breaking part is that SWFs can use it circularly.
For example, if the hook states are 2-0-0-0 someone can use it and it becomes 1-1-0-0. Then if the killer downs the person who used the burden, it becomes 1-2-0-0, but then someone else can use the perk again and it's 1-1-1-0. Effectively, this forces the killer to go through 1-1-1-1 stages and require 6 hooks before the first kill instead of 3, effectively game-breaking.
The game-breaking part is not that it reduces the total number of hooks to win (it doesn't) but it delays the fist kill, making the 4v1 longer, during which gens get progressed 30% faster than in 3v1.
Unfortunately while it's a very strong perk for SWFs, it won't improve anything for solos because it's tied to a perk and can be ruined so easily by your teammates stealing the unhook. If the killer tunnels, there are ALREADY game-breaking perks in the game, these are Decisive and OtR, which everyone regards as the two strongest perks in the game, and yet it didn't prevent tunneling at all because the majority of players don't use it in soloQ.
BHVR has to stop locking anti-tunnel mechanics behind perks because it's counterproductive for balance, it only make coordinated teams stronger while effectively doing nothing for the majority of the playerbase.
That really makes it sound like the perk is doing exactly what it is intended to do.
If the killer is getting to 2-0-0-0 against a SWF this probably means the killer is tunneling / camping one survivor. Because if they leave the hook they should have a much more diversified hook spread, like 2-1-1-0. Now StB could still be useful there if the 0 hook has it, but you aren't going to get a circular unhook situation without either a very weird game or a tunneling killer.
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I don't think the controversary if over its association with Native Americans in particular (the Ojibwe / Algonquian is I think the general association), but that this is something that BHVR avoids entirely. They seem to want to avoid any type of mythological / folklore / legendary creature (we don't have demons, or Fae, or Werewolves, though sometimes BHVR spins those concepts into their own original character), unless they are licensing it from someone. We don't have a general vampire or Dracula, even though that would be free for them, we have Castlevania's Dracula.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
I remember the “just run detectives for noed” “run ds for tunneling” “run unbreakable soul guard no mither for slugging” “run object for weave”. Just annoying💀
Oh and who could forget, “run empathy for old eruption”.
I would like to bring fun perks like Blastmine or fineness instead of having to run perks for a chance to counter BSOh and who could forget, “run empathy for old eruption”.Oh wow, I'd forgotten about that. That was crazy times.
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850379#Comment_3850379
The perk was already game breaking at 3 seconds. People just needed to go down near actual loops, instead of relying on a 5-second stun to get them across the map. Either way, the perk's strength is in the killer getting stunned and losing all his pressure in an instant, AND he now has to chase that survivor an additional time to kill them. If he doesn't take that chase, he wasted a chase and got stunned for nothing. Taking more than 1 DS, he might as well open the exits for them.
You're basically following a six-step plan to make DS actually activate and then at the tail end of it you just pull a frowny face and go 'why is DS so OP?'.
I have been hit with DS once in my life. It was the first time and immediately the last time because I wasn't stupid enough to fall for the same trick again. DS has literally had zero value in games against me since.
'Game breaking', please.
I've been hit with it more than once, though I just take it like I would a blast mind stun and resume playing the game, but it is kind of funny to end a game as the killer and see every survivor running OTR and/or DS and just be like 'huh, neat'.
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@joel84 said:
yo,
take a look at the Steam reviews for Doomed Curse..... and you'll be left speechless.
A storm of negative reviews….WOW I would not have expected that.
Where has the transparency gone ? or should I rather ask: How much feedback does BHVR still need ? I understand that a company needs to make money, but is profit so much more important these days?
If this continues, the gaming community will suffer and dwindle, and that makes me sad and angry.
What do you think?
What do you think?I don't understand why people think profit is the issue. A company makes money when they release something people want to buy, they lose money when they release something people don't like.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849969#Comment_3849969
No it doesnt there is a single team(eternal) or 2(elysium) that have managed to get about 100 and they play comp dbd
Otz and his friends havent got to 30-40 .
Please stop making things up.
Your comparison is still terrible and they arent even in the same realm of people who make killer streaks, and coordinated SWFS making streaks.
So not only do comp[ SWFS not get several hundred win streaks, the amount of teams even out there that are capable of even barely over 100 are limited to less than the number of half the fingers on one of your hands.
Killer several hundred win streaks there are several dozen.In addition to this: didn't Otz have a video that his survival rate over a lot of games was basically 40%? I haven't seen it, but I know it gets referenced in a Hens video that tends to come up a lot.
Edit to add: Also, the only really survivor streak I'm familiar with Otz trying is hardcore survivor and they start fresh accounts for that, so they get lots of matches at brand new MMR. -
@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848890#Comment_3848890
Huh. And do you lie to yourself often?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848886#Comment_3848886
And I agree with this. The numbers are too high by a little bit, but my fear is all the fearmongering over how "OMG BUSTED OP!" this is now will get hexes nerfed to near uselessness again. We just got them back, I want to be able to experiment with hex builds without them being cleansed in five seconds, I want MORE perks to be viable not less. But I agree if it's affecting things this bad, it does need a slight reduction, and that's probably something that will be fixed in a hotfix later.
Huh. And do you lie to yourself often?It's literally your scenario.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848900#Comment_3848900
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848952#Comment_3848952
Fair points and I'm willing to agree with both of you on these points but this further pushes me to the idea that 2v8 can't become permanent. If what you two are saying is true then it kinda tells me that maybe dbd doesn't have the player base to support the ratio 2v8 requires and support both 2v8 and 1v4.
At the end of the day if 2v8 did become permanent it most likely led to me uninstalling the game bc how will affect the game as a whole for me. My reasons why I would most likely stop playing if 2v8 became permanent:
1: Queue times will continue to be 20 mins for killers across the whole game and even if they would get better over time we most likely looking at MONTHS for that to happen. Im not going to sit in a queue for 20min for a 5min match in 2v8 or a sweaty unfun match in 1v4. This leads to point 2.
2: Now this is based on what others have said since I took a break from Killer as a whole this time around but I heard from streamers and other ppl that 1v4 became even more sweater doing the time 2v8 was around. As someone who honestly really dislikes Killer in 2v8 since I don't have a friend to play with and I don't like having to work together with some random person who most likely won't pull their weight. I would opt to play 1v4 more since killer was the main reason I got dbd in the first play(being the 1 with no teammates) but if 1v4 is nothing but swfs who wants to sweat then I not going to have fun there either. So there would not be a place for me to just have a fun time since I don't like killer in 2v8 and don't want to play sweaty in 1v4.
As you see this is why I don't want 2v8 to be permanent bc it will GREATLY affect my fun of the game and Im sure others feel similar to myself in this fact. This why I think chaos suffer is a better mode to put into the game over 2v8 esp with you also randomizing items and add-ons. It has the same feel as a causal mode bc you wont have to go against the meta builds every match (or addons or items if they added those to be random as well) and keeps the core ideas of the game being 1v4. They could even add things like the cages to stop camping if you worry about that. I know what someone may say tho "Well we could have both 2v8 and chaos suffer" but I honestly think dbd can't handle 3 different modes and having all 2v8, 1v4 and chaos suffer would only lead to longer queue times.
If what you two are saying is true then it kinda tells me that maybe dbd doesn't have the player base to support the ratio 2v8 requires and support both 2v8 and 1v4.So its not the player base size per se, there are plenty of players. The problem is that they need to keep the players in roughly equal proportions. You could have a massive player base, but if you move far away from that 20/80 split queues will slow down.
Imagine there were a hundred and ten players in the game. 30 of them wanted to be killer and 80 of them wanted to be survivor. Let's say you are killer 30 in the queue. The first twenty killers will get a game, all 80 survivors will get a game, but then you have to wait for 36 survivors to finish their games, queue up again, before the next four finally give you the game you want. You could multiply those numbers by a billion, as long as you have an imbalance on the sides its going to create issues.
Looking at the history of other assyms, I think BHVR just kind of got there through a combination lucks, bribing the players, and many years of trial and error.
At the end of the day if 2v8 did become permanent it most likely led to me uninstalling the game bc how will affect the game as a whole for me. My reasons why I would most likely stop playing if 2v8 became permanent:1: Queue times will continue to be 20 mins for killers across the whole game and even if they would get better over time we most likely looking at MONTHS for that to happen.I'm not sure if it would be months. I suspect if it was permanent the luster would fade quickly on the rush to play killer and/or killers would eventually drop out of the killer role and play survivor.
However, it definitely would be an issue. Whether that would be times of a minute or two or ten+ is just guess work.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847749#Comment_3847749
This is a honestly question I have for most ppl who are saying that survivors prefer 2v8 over 1v4. Do y'all really don't understand how queues work? 2v8 for both times it's been in the game, killer queue have been terrible (20 min waits). This is because there are more killers than survivors who are playing the mode. If what you are claiming was true where killers prefer 1v4 over 2v8 and survivors prefer 2v8 over 1v4 then why the hell survivors queue are almost instant and the BP incentive was exclusively on survivor for the whole two weeks the events they ran? To me it seems killers are the one who enjoys 2v8 more.…
As killer myself I can only speak for myself. I personally prefer 1v4 over 2v8 for few reasons and easy wins isn't one of them. One, I don't want to deal with a random teammate, you think solo survivor is bad in 1v4 well solo killer in 2v8 is pretty much the same experience. I didn't play 2v8 this time around but doing it's first run, I had so much useless killer partners that matches wasn't fun at all. I rather be by myself at that point. And two, killer queue times...as I mentioned earlier killer queue are always around 20min during 2v8...this meant I could only get maybe 3 matches in a night. This wasn't worth for me and decided this time around to not even try killer in 2v8.
This is a honestly question I have for most ppl who are saying that survivors prefer 2v8 over 1v4. Do y'all really don't understand how queues work?Just looking at queues doesn't really answer the question because of how the game needs an 80/20% split in its player base.
If a new mode came out that attracted a million new players, and half wanted to play survivor, and half wanted to play killer, queues would break for killers even though on an objective number count the mode is popular and BHVR would be thrilled by the new players.
And because of the huge need for more survivors than killers, even a relatively small percentage wise tilt toward players wanting to play killer more can really unbalance things. If queues were roughly even, for every one survivor who switches to playing killer, four killers need to switch to survivor, and for every new killer player that enters the game, four survivors have to enter.
I have no idea what BHVR's data actually indicates, I'm just trying to point out that the queue times don't really answer this.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
There are similar qualifiers for Survivor teams in comp, crogers.
Many. Similar. Qualifiers.
Your point. What is it?
Killers have to intentionally handicap themselves to make the game difficult. Before we even get to talking about what survivor handicaps should exist, we are presuming they've already jumped through a number of hoops many players never will (4 person SWF that has played and trained together).
What's your point?
And comp is a totally different thing: survivors know the killer they are going to face and the win conditions are entirely different.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
I will not be replying to the obvious Survivor Mains angry they can't get a 60%+ escape rate with their SWF when them being in a SWF and having coordination is WHY they can get a higher escape rate than SoloQ in the first place.
The game is horror themed. The game is an assymetrical game. Killers must always be stronger than Survivors, if you can't handle that then why are you playing Survivor? If you think Killer is so easy and that 60% killrates are really too much or guaranteed all the time, why not try playing Killer and see how far you can actually streak? And don't cheat by playing someone like Blight or Nurse or Billy with four slowdown or full aura either. Bring what you think is a non-sweaty Killer build, play the way you think Killers should play to make Survivors happy, then come back here and tell everyone how "easy" it is to get a 60% killrate average out of that.
I'll wait.
Look at how many qualifiers you need to put in.
-Can't play sweaty
-Can't bring full aura
-Can't bring full gen slow down
-Cant play a top tier killer
-Go on a streak
It's fine to say the game should be horror themed and the killer stronger. Great, let's just be honest about killer having the easier side and then we can discuss how much easier it should be. Like if I took all of the above handicaps and only killed 55% of survivors that would somehow prove what?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848805#Comment_3848805
50% is lowest possible escape rate for 4 man swf. that's worst you can do. that stat says nothing about what cieling is. Like even Hens did a video where he did soloq survivor and he observed that he was escaping 60% of the time when soloq average is 40%. you can significantly outperform for what stats say.
In addition to what @Firellius said:
Hens video was a 60% escape rate overall (rate for all survivors, whether or not Hens escaped) and he was excluding matches with early quits while seemingly keeping matches if the killer quit (it's impossible to tell in an edited video without the raw video data).
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@joel84 said:
That's what they're there for
First Genregress, than camping, than tunneling, now Totems. What's next? DS DH Windows combos are boring and if time is such a big problem for you, why do you play at all?
IT IS WHAT IT IS..... change my mind
Perks are not, or at least should not, be there as a way to counter playstyles. Perks are there to give advantages in certain areas, not be an absolutely necessity.
Take healing perks as an example. If the Killer brings a bunch of anti-healing perks and the survivors don't have healing perks, the survivors still have multiple options to play around it. Likewise a bunch of healing perks on the survivor side isn't going to automatically win them the game just because they are countering the killer's perks. That's healthy game design, perks give you an advantage, but they don't decide the match.
DbD is at its absolute worst when the game is decided in the loading screen. The worst offender of this was old 3 genning and Potential Energy. "Killer is 3 genning and survivors don't have potential energy, survivors lose" vs "Killer is 3 genning and and survivors do have potential energy, survivors win". It's awful design when the perk selection, which is at best an educated guess, is the ultimate determining factor of who wins and loses.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Balance favors whoever is trying harder (assuming similarly skilled players). And if the loadouts and effort are equal, it still really depends on which killer we're talking about. The sweatiest Freddy in the world will struggle to get 4 stages at the highest level. And a top Blight will win 90% of their games.
Balance favors whoever is trying harder (assuming similarly skilled players). And if the loadouts and effort are equal, it still really depends on which killer we're talking about.I definitely think there is something to this argument, but when ever the discussion comes up about both sides playing at their absolute peak, I don't understand why we throw all the killers in there. Players get to choose their killer. If we're going to presume both sides optimizing to the peak, then we should presume the killer is also taking the optimal killer choice.
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It does tend to destroy the conversation, that's true.
On the other hand, if you actually care about the devs seeing the content, I think that actually makes it more likely. A massive thread can feel nice, but doesn't really matter if its just us talking amongst ourselves.
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It somewhat depends on the circumstance and if I'm doing an archive, but usually I just don't play it out. I don't farm, as I don't see the point, and playing nice doesn't feel right.
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@sinkra said:
Because they know the vast majority of casuals would never play 1v4 again, which is the mode they spent years working on to "balance" and this would damage their pride that most players prefer the chaotic fun party mode of the game instead of the boring frustration of 1v4.
Actually, if it became permanent, the bigger worry is that they'd need to somehow attach it to the bloodpoint grind, because then grinding BP becomes even more pointless if all you ever did was play the current version of 2v8.
But I don't think they are worried about 'pride'. They're game devs in an ever changing live service market, change is built into their concept.
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@Flopkween said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847204#Comment_3847204
I did it in a game thinking that both would work but nope. I wasted 2 mins and I barely got value from treacherous crows
I wasted 2 mins and I barely got value from treacherous crowsJust wait, one day you'll be able to waste 4 mins in the basement to barely get any value.
On the topic of invocations (and boons). There are 3 design approaches they could have taken -
1: Survivors are limited to one invocation and cannot run more than one.
2: Survivors can take as many invocations as they want, but they need to activate each one separately.
3: Survivors can take as many invocations as they want, and if succeed on one all of them activate.
To me, approach 1 would be the easiest to balance each around the idea of comparing it directly to the value of other perks. Some people like approach 3 and the idea that invocations should be like boons and should balanced around the idea that people are going to run a full boon build and we balance around that.
Approach 2 seems like the absolute worst possible approach to take, which is what BHVR has chosen to do.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3846192#Comment_3846192
This perk is usable, has a benefit, and its condition is reasonably likely to present itself in an average match.
By modern survivor perk standards, that's really OP.
Only 1 condition and a mere 60 seconds of broken? BHVR is really starting to spoil us.
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
The whole comeback mechanic is really confusing to me honestly. During the free to play weekend the comeback mechanic helps the new survivors out a lot and keeps games from being a total blowout and keeping morale high for the newer players which is nice.
But when free to play weekend is over and only the good players are left it just makes the games way to close and competitive. I try to play it just for fun and like to spread out hooks but it feels so strange downing survivors so fast just for it to not matter. I went on about 14 chases each lasting 30 seconds max (because I have way too much time on Huntress), cross map downing several people for my teammate at the same time and since we spread the hooks out, we lost very badly a 7 person out. I'm not sure why killers are punished so heavily for spreading hooks in this mode. It really is a game losing move to spread hook states.
Compared to matches where I actively ignore a few survivors and got rid of a few of them early on and can actually have a chill game where a few escape through hatch or maybe gate. I don't need nor do I want an 8k every game, in fact it is very boring trying to kill all 8 if I have to slug for it. I'll even get to end game scenarios where I down 3-4 survivors at once and could slug and kill all of them, but I'll still hook them even though I know it guarantees their escape since the cages will almost always go straight to gates just because I know survivors find it boring too.
It would be cool if we could make it to where spreading hooks was rewarded instead of punished, it's so strange to me why we continue to punish killers for spreading out hook states in this game. Maybe you could give them some special ability that comes from unique hooks or something.
People complain on here a lot about slugging and tunneling in this mode but honestly, I don't blame killers. They want to win too. I can count on 2 hands how many survivor matches I've lost. You could implement the comeback mechanic for the free to play weekend and remove it for the rest of the time. It makes what's supposed to be a chill game mode annoyingly competitive. Its honestly a chill mode for survivors and that's it. Or maybe reduce the hook state gen speed boost to 1.5% instead of 2.5% idk.
Tl;Dr: Stop punishing killers for spreading hook states and encouraging them to tunnel plz and thx.
So I think there is a big difference between 'comeback mechanics are a bad idea' and 'the current comeback mechanic is flawed'.
I certainly think there are problems with the current comeback mechanic, mainly, as you mentioned, that tunneling is still the absolute best strategy (a little harder in this mode, but far from impossible). You can get strange situations in the game where the killers have hooked a ton of survivors, but the survivors are all spread out doing gens getting really fast progress, and then lots of gens pop around the same time so the 5% gen done penalty doesn't really have an impact.
I think it's a relatively easy fix. Just stagger the comeback mechanic on the survivor side. 1/3/5% on the hooks (or whatever percentage BHVR thinks would work).
Personally, I think the comeback mechanic is a great idea. It lessens the value of the early game and prevents blowouts, but we're on version 2 of the 2v8 vs all of the time the 1v4 mode has had.
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8 hours to go, there's go my early Thanksgiving prep.
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@Nazzzak said:
It is what it is, but yes, I don't think many will run it now. The nerf guarantees it won't be seen in solo queue. Babysitter comes with no downsides and yet you rarely see it. People aren't sticking their neck out that far for randoms lol the knee-jerk reactions to new survivor perks happens like clockwork and it's disappointing the devs rarely take a "wait and see" approach the way they do to almost all killer perks
People aren't sticking their neck out that far for randomsThis is true, but its a bit more than that. Even if survivors used the early game chat, which is exceptionally rare, it's hard to have a dedicated build in soloq. If one survivor brings a hook rescue build, as an example, the other survivors aren't going to know that, so they end up running into each other.