crogers271
crogers271
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845594#Comment_3845594
Im only to cover one part since the rest is meaningless to me.
"Well if you've already decided you can't be convinced, I'm not sure how helpful this is going to be on a discussion forum, but I'll do my best."
That is where we differ…Im not here to convince anyone to change their mind. In my experience, you never will change ppl minds over video games or on a forum so I don't even try. Im here to vent my feelings about a mode that ruins my experience of the game bc it makes queue times unreasonable. If you love 2v8 then more power to you and Im not going to try to change your mind on that but your enjoyment is taking away from my own bc I can't play the role I want to play. I do think ppl only find 2v8 fun bc it's new and it allows them to play with a friend but in my experience, it has been the worst mode I have played in dbd, light out is more fun imo than this mode. The mode is just as sweaty as normal, as a soloq killer you end up with bad teammates all the time, Survivor is boring bc there is nothing new to do other than do gens and heal ppl 2x as fast, and there are no mmr or matchmaking so you get SO many bad players(for a lot of matches I have died on my first cage bc no one would come to get me) and getting double team sucks esp when you have been doing well in the chase and you get punished with the other killer ambush you.
That all I am saying, my exp with the mode has been some of the worst gaming exp. I'd rather play comp ow and deal with toxic players telling me Im bad than play 2v8.
That is where we differ…Im not here to convince anyone to change their mind. In my experience, you never will change ppl minds over video games or on a forum so I don't even try.This might sound snarky, but serious question: why even post anything beyond 'I don't like 2v8 and hate where the que times end up'.
If you want to vent, go ahead, but BHVR has actual player count numbers which are going to mean far more than posts on the forum and the que times are extremely obvious. I try to avoid discussions on 'fun' because I do think it is something that can't really be discussed, but just seems like waste of time to even be posting on a discussion forum if that's all you want to convey.
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I feel like I've seen a relatively even split. More medics, but with there only being four classes and there being a max of 4 per class it keeps things pretty spread out.
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@Boons123 said:
A very powerful killer, stronger than any other killer. However, the killer has a downside, which is that the killer can be killed by the survivors. In a way, the survivors face a difficult time in order to kill this killer.
Once the killer is dead, the entity will powered the Exit Gate and the survivors have one minute to escape.
However, if the survivors choose not kill the killer or they failed , they will have to repair five generators as usual.
This topic has been on my mind for a long time and I wanted to share it with you.
Looks like I'm first to mention Bloodharvest.
Basically: BHVR tried a game like this where the survivors could either escape or fight back against the killer. It did not go well. When one side has two mutually exclusive ways to win, and sometimes those players are in communication and sometimes not, it creates way too massive of a discrepancy.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845589#Comment_3845589
See I have a similar definition of sweat as you that why I think chaos shuffler is much more of a casual mode than 2v8. You don't have deal with meta builds on either side bc builds are completely random. Imo perks are more the issue than add-ons or offering. Toolboxes are only a issue because there perks that make them overpower and even refill them. Here another thing that makes chaos shuffler better over 2v8, it doesn't affect queue times what so ever. Queue times are the same for both modes when chaos shuffler is achieved something 2v8 still haven't been able to do. So if I don't feel like playing chaos shuffler I can play normal mode without having to wait 20mind for a match.
2v8 is totally more broken as well... Survivors don't need a toolbox and a genrush build when they have guide. You can't convince me that 2v8 is any more wrost or sweaty than 1v4. Also that so call catch up mechanic doesn't do anything. In fact it's one of the driving reasons why you do see more slugging bc killers are punished for doing their objective by making already fast gens even faster. That why you see only blight, billies and wraths in the mode as well bc the only way to keep up with the gens is to play a high mobility killer. As I said there is a meta in 2v8 and it's definitely not casual mode. Y'all are delusional if you think otherwise.
Let's start in the middle.
You can't convince me that 2v8 is any more wrost or sweaty than 1v4.Well if you've already decided you can't be convinced, I'm not sure how helpful this is going to be on a discussion forum, but I'll do my best.
Survivors don't need a toolbox and a genrush build when they have guide.Guide has pros and cons, especially depending on the killers you get. The most common reason I lose on the survivor side is the that too many of us are grouped up.
On the other hand in 1v4, if all you care about is winning, there's very few items you'd take on the survivor side. Best toolbox, medkit + syringe and charges, key with aura reading. There's a few other variations there, but there's clear superior items.
Also that so call catch up mechanic doesn't do anything. In fact it's one of the driving reasons why you do see more slugging bc killers are punished for doing their objective by making already fast gens even faster.These two sentences don't work together. You say it doesn't work together, then say it works.
Every game I've seen killers try and slug excessively it has gone badly for them. Basekit unbreakable.
The catch up mechanic does its job pretty well, though it really needs to differentiate hook levels on the survivor side. Games that start one sided feel much more competitive than they do in 1v4.
Onto chaos shuffle:
chaos shuffler is much more of a casual mode than 2v8I didn't realize this was a 3 way competition between chaos shuffle, 2v8, and 1v4 for the casual crown.
Imo perks are more the issue than add-ons or offering. Toolboxes are only a issue because there perks that make them overpower and even refill them.On the survivor side just take out toolbox and throw in medkit + syringe.
On the killer side I think a lot of the high powered addons really don't depend on what perks you get.
Here another thing that makes chaos shuffler better over 2v8, it doesn't affect queue times what so ever.This is just a red herring unrelated to casual topic.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845544#Comment_3845544
See I don't understand where ppl are getting this idea that 2v8 is the "arcade" or "casual" mode of dbd. The times I played esp this time around, it's just as sweaty as normal dbd. In fact, you can say it's worse this time than last time with the buff survivor classes and blight and spirit being added to the killer roster. I have been mainly playing Survivor in the mode for the last two weeks(just to do the rift stuff) and I've seen so much sweat! On the killer side, I saw mainly the "meta" combo of blight & wrath or Blight & billy. I think I have seen one trapper and maybe two DSs this whole time. Then you have survivors who are running nothing but guide and medic and finishing all the gens in 6 to 8 mins. There is nothing casual about this mode, ppl are being just as competitive in this mode as in 1v4. Also, I've seen plenty of billies and blights slugging so you not getting away from that in this mode either.
Honestly, I think a lot of y'all are just blinded by the fact 2v8 is a new shiny toy or a bad lover you think you can fix. "2v8 is so abusive but I know I can fix it" That's what yall sound like to me. I stated it before and I say it again the only reason why Im so against 2v8 is because it affects my enjoyment of the game. I can't just ignore it and pretend it's not there bc it affects 1v4 SO much. To me 2v8 is not fun on either side, the survivor is boring, and getting the double team all the time is frustrating and not fun. Then your teammates who do nothing all match and will leave you to die in a cage. Then on the killer side, queue times are 20 min long, when you do get a match it most likely will only last 8 mins with you either completely stomping the survivors or survivors genrushing you(man that 20 min wait was SO worth it wasn't it), and as a survivor,r there is a high chance your teammate is potato will not help. For Killer it's only fun if you have a friend like most coop games but as someone like myself who solos this game and has no one this mode is crap. I honestly hope this mode never is made permanent bc I really think it will eventually kill dbd if it was.
I have been mainly playing Survivor in the mode for the last two weeks(just to do the rift stuff) and I've seen so much sweat!So what exactly 'sweat' is differs from person to person, but the reason I see 2v8 as more casual is:
1: No perks / addons / offerings
2: Mistakes aren't as costly
When I think of sweat, I think of a SWF running all 4 commodious toolboxes, choosing the map, and spreading out the hooks, with each person on the team having dedicated roles - or a killer running best possible addons and, again, choosing the map. I never think of sweat about what people do in the game, I expect people to play the game, but its taking advantage of those 'make them game easier for yourself' things that exist in 1v4.
You can't do that in 2v8. On the survivor side all of the classes have value and while I think a good team would definitely have more guides/medics, but its not nearly to the level of game breaking you can do in 1v4. On the killer side this might be a little more true, , but I still don't think it reaches 1v4 levels (there also seems to be more disagreement on what the best killer combos are).
The catch up mechanics and hooks getting spread via cages also means that a single mistake doesn't seem like it defines the game. One of the complaints about 1v4 is that the early game is so extremely important with a good / bad chase basically deciding the outcome. While early game of course matters, its not all defining.
I stated it before and I say it again the only reason why Im so against 2v8 is because it affects my enjoyment of the game.That's of course fine, it just really isn't much that can discussed.
I hated DbD before 6.1. I played it a couple of times in its early forms and totally wrote it off. I, generally speaking, like the direction BHVR has taken the game. Yes there are definitely people who think they are on the wrong track, and one day BHVR might choose to go in a direction I dislike, but that's just the nature of live service games. The designer is trying to adapt to an ever changing player base, every player has the potential of being left out of those changes.
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@wilnunez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845319#Comment_3845319
I do admit, it would be significantly more boring compared to normal 1v4. Without perks, a lot of the variety in playstyles gets boiled down to a handful of options based on archetypes
But I still do think certain aspects of the 2v8 modifier (such as generator speeds slowing/speeding up based on who's winning and experimenting more with Cages of Corruption) would actually do wonders in the main game and should be exploredBut I still do think certain aspects of the 2v8 modifier (such as generator speeds slowing/speeding up based on who's winning and experimenting more with Cages of Corruption) would actually do wonders in the main game and should be exploredThere's definitely ideas in 2v8 that I wish the 1v4 game had been built around from the beginning. To incorporate them though I think it would require a large overhaul of the base game, which would be a strange thing to do given that it is still incredibly popular.
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It's one of those things that if they introduced it from the moment aura read perks came in I don't think it would be a problem, but now it would be a massive game change. Good survivors will, quickly, figure out the killer's aura read perks, but even getting one or two surprise hits from an aura read is pretty substantial value.
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Does that not sound like a dream-come-true mode for casual players?Maybe, but I don't think it would have lasting appeal. 2v8 reduces the complexity of a lot of the game elements that exist in 1v4 because twice the number of players adds its own challenges. Without the larger player size I feel like the game would grow stale really quickly.
That said, if they tried it as a modifier I'd give it a go, but I don't think it would work out that well.
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I'm enjoying it quite a bit. I burned out on 2v8 pretty quickly last time, but I think this is an improvement. Survivor doesn't have the highs of the 1v4 version, but it doesn't have the lows either, while I prefer killer quite a bit more in 2v8 (other than the crazy wait times).
@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844780#Comment_3844780
Ive heard that by making it permanent, the novelty of the mode would lessen over time.
Not sure if this could work, but I sadly dont really see any other way. Survivor is already very strong in 2v8, so winning isnt the problem anymore (at least I hope so).
You can already heal others in seconds, do flashy saves and rebuild pallets. What other things would you suggest to make the role more fun? I dont think a 5v5 would work either and I agree, that it would be a totally different game mode altogether.
Edit: one more thing that came to my mind is that the variety in killers could make a difference. Right now, there are only 8 killers to choose from, making combinations limited. More variety killers could also result in more interesting matches for survivors, dont you think?
You can already heal others in seconds, do flashy saves and rebuild pallets. What other things would you suggest to make the role more fun? I dont think a 5v5 would work either and I agree, that it would be a totally different game mode altogether.I do think 5v5 would work, but that's another topic.
Class system - I think this makes the game overall easier to balance, but takes a lot of the fun out. I think there could be a middle ground.
—Survivor classes - Allow variation in what each class can select. I'm kinda working on a longer post along these ideas, but for example allow the escapist to choose from sprint burst, lithe, or balanced landing as their exhaustion perk. That would create a lot more variety while still allowing BHVR to have more control on the balance side.
—More classes - I think the ideal number would be 6 in the long run. You don't want so many classes that some are clearly broken, but four is not enough. The best example which people are throwing out is a boon class.
—More killers - This is potentially a double edged sword, as more killers also make the killer side more attractive, but I think killer variety is one of the core elements of the survivor experience.
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Things I think make sense within the constraints of the game:
Ada
Low Profile - I feel this makes sense with what we see of Ada. She's strongest on her own.
Wiretap - Ada always knows what is going on, this is a good way to symbolize it.
Leon
Flashbang - Probably the closest they could get to a grenade
What doesn't make sense:
Ada
Reactive Healing - I think this would make more sense as a Leon perk, especially RE 2 where when others fall Leon seems to get stronger.
Leon
Bite the Bullet - Yeah, doesn't really connect.
Rookie Spirit - No idea, but at least the name is linked.
As others have said, there's only so much you can do to incorporate a character into the already existing framework of DbD. It's a guess on my part, but I suspect BHVR has a wide array of perks built up and when they get a licensed character they try to figure out which of their perks would actually best fit.
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The most uncomfortable truth? BHVR isn't that overly worried about balance. The game is designed to have a wide degree of variety, the option to sweat, and random chance.
Camping and Tunneling Are Necessary for Killers to WinThe uncomfortable truth here is that everyone has a different definition of what camping, tunneling (and slugging) are and when they are fair. Lots of disparate disagreements and suggestions get lumped together making discussion difficult and strawman easy.
Balance Favors SWF Teams Over Solo PlayersConceptually, I don't think anyone disagrees with the idea that a SWF can and generally are stronger, but it depends on the SWF. Are we talking 4 person comp team (exceedingly rare), a group of friends, or someone playing with their spouse who touches the game every couple of months?
Balancing is often based on killers performing at their maximum potential and survivors playing solo or with minimal coordination.I don't think that's true at all. We've got balance changes for killers based on them being more difficult to play on console for example. If we were just balancing killers off their maximum potential, Nurse, Hillbilly, and Blight would get massive nerfs.
Meanwhile, killers have no equivalent teamwork mechanic, leaving them at a significant disadvantage in SWF-heavy matches.I'm going to say this is wrong and a huge misunderstanding that comes up in any type of asymmetric activity. Being on your own makes things easier. Having to deal with team work, even if we just artificially limit this to SWFs, are having to add a whole new thing that they can mess up (communication) that the 'one' doesn't have to deal with.
This isn't just DbD. It comes up in other asymmetric style games were players who like to play the side with less players think they have the harder role because they have more opponents, when in fact they have the simpler side.
The 40% Escape Rate doesn’t mean a 60% Killer Win RateThe uncomfortable truth here though is that the kill rate is a better long term reflection of what the game is actually balancing around.
Unlike survivors, who can focus on a single objective (generators), killers must simultaneously manage multiple objectives: chasing, hooking, preventing rescues, and patrolling gens. This disparity makes playing killer far more stressful and demanding.So this is one of those things I've come to realize the community is just going to always disagree on. When I first started this game and being involved in the community I couldn't believe people found playing killer stressful, while it can feel like I'm having a heart attack playing survivor. At first I thought people played killer because they didn't like the intensity of survivor.
I find the idea that survivors have a single objective particularly striking in light of your examples. Likewise killers only objective is to kill. All of your examples are things the survivors have to worry about as well. Do I focus on the gen or go for the rescue? Is it worth it to heal? Where should I take the killer on the chase?
Both sides have a single objective (well, survivors also have the gates), and a number of other things that they may or may not do during the game to increase their chance of completing their objective.
For me, win or lose, killer is chill. The meta-gameplay seems pretty obvious. As survivor, you have to do the same thing, while either also communicating (SWF) or, more commonly, having uncertain information about what is going on (soloq).
Many updates are driven by community outcry rather than long-term strategy. Some changes address vocal complaints but lead to new issues or unbalanced mechanics.The uncomfortable truth here is two fold:
1: Balance is only one of BHVR's decision makers on game design.
2: They want the game to constantly be changing, for metas to come and go. There isn't some long-term perfect goal for DbD. To say they lack long-term strategy makes the mistake of thinking there is an end goal for DbD.
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@Pelaan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843313#Comment_3843313
They already gave massive buffs and Ults they could make the escape rate 90% and it still won't fix the issue
Those two options HAS to be implemented
They already gave massive buffs and Ults they could make the escape rate 90% and it still won't fix the issueBecause that's not the issue. Balance is just part of it. Playing survivor is not that exciting. In 1v4 you have so many different build options and things feel so much more meaningful - a good chase, popping a three gen, the tension at play in the game, all of them feel better.
They need to increase the variety on the survivor side. I enjoy playing 2v8 survivor, its a nice game, but while I usually prefer the survivor role in 1v4, I've been enduring the wait and killer is a lot of fun right now. It feels like a considerably different experience than 1v4, while survivor feels like a lessened, crazier version of what 1v4 offers.
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@Pelaan said:
Since making massive buffs to Survivors didn't work to make it more appealing for them and fix queue times I wonder what devs are gonna try next my bet it's gonna be Bot filling or merging 1v4 and 2v8 queues
They're not going to go the bot route. People don't play multiplayer games to play bots.
I don't think we're going to see the disappearance of 1v4 during 2v8.
More likely, they'll just keep working on the survivor side of the equation and try to offer more gameplay improvements.
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I've been thinking this as well. Without the first hook suicide, I've seen more DCs, but that's okay. I'd much rather have a bot than be down a player. It really feels like the mode shows that hook kobes aren't some critical element of the game.
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I've seen this as well. I think there's a couple of factors. By this point you probably have survivors on death hook being cautious, you have survivors who don't know where the gens are, and if the gens are clustered together getting to them against two killers can be difficult.
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I wonder if they are playing around with testing if the BP bonus is really having an impact on player counts at all.
I've seen the same thing. A couple of times the bonus dropped and I jumped over to killer but the wait time was still massive.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3842410#Comment_3842410
almost all killers break the rules of the game to some extent. thats what their powers do. i struggle to name a single killer whose power doesn't break the default rules of the game in one way or the other, because they always change something about the way normal match goes.
trapper places traps that can entirely bypass the whole chase&hitting sequence. wraith breaks the rule of the terror radius, hillbilly breaks the 2 hits to down & mobility rule, huntress breaks "melee range" rule, pyramid head or sadako break the hook rule, singularity breaks "pallet stops killer" rule and so on.
nurse is incapable of chasing survivors by W keying on them, she has to constantly use her blinks which comes with its pros and cons - ability to ignore orthodox map resources, at the cost of struggling to deal with normally unsafe or borderline deadzone tiles because of the way blinks work. nurse is the only killer where map resources almost dont matter which is both good and bad because you barely rely on them throughout the whole match and can give nurse a long chase if you're better than her at any point in the match.
there's nothing wrong with nurse in principle. we could argue that her blink range, cd or lunge distance can be too generous and I could even agree on that, but that's not the point you're making here.
almost all killers break the rules of the game to some extent. thats what their powers do.That's true, but you have to look to my next sentence to see what we're talking about:
Every killer has varying pros and cons to playing around loops and pallets, Nurse just jumps past those.A strong loop is a strong loop against every killer in the game, except Nurse. Now how much of a strong loop it is and how to play it varies from killer to killer, but while shack is a strong place to run against every killer, it's really not any different from any high wall loop against Nurse. The whole concept of god pallets disappears for her and only her.
It's a fundamental difference in her design vs every other killer that makes balancing her, and introducing new killer perks, considerably difficult.
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@Dadeordye said:
Hey yal!😁
Would like to discuss this: why years pass and almost every killer receive nerfs and Nurse is basically untouched in all DbD history? We have such nice perks for killers that could be balanced with all of them except Nurse. If she uses these perk they becomes broken, so for the sake of balance they are not good as they could be.
I'm sure this subject was already debated once, but I would like to participate this time.😊I think a problem for Nurse is that she fundamentally breaks the rules of the game. Every killer has varying pros and cons to playing around loops and pallets, Nurse just jumps past those. It's why so many perks fall into the category of 'we can't have that because it would be too strong on Nurse'.
Her biggest weakness is her ability to get across the map, but as maps shrink to bolster M1 killers, she gets stronger as well. This is kind of why Nurse is not the dominant menace in 2v8 as she is in 1v4.
This is compounded by that until a player gets an idea of her teleports, she absolutely is garbage. So if you nerfed her power (say slowing down the speed it regens) this would become even more of a massive gulf.
The two best ideas I've heard for Nurse nerfs:
1: Blindness around her blinks to prevent the use of aura reading.
2: Spasmodic addon as a basekit requirement preventing the two tap she can do so easily and making her an M1 killer at point (this would require lots of additional changes though).
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Hillbilly, Wraith, Blight seem to be the top 3 from my plays. Probably in that order, but could easily seeing it being different.
Basically, map traversal is desperately needed on the map sizes.
Nurse and Huntress are kind of in the mid tier were player skill has a lot to do with it.
Spirit is decent, but not nearly as powerful as in 1v4.
Trapper - it really depends who he is paired with and how he plays. If he can shut down the loops and protect key gens while the faster killer downs people, he's okay. Without the right other killer though he drops.
Deathslinger is my bottom tier, but I feel like I'm facing people who've never played Slinger before (which is strange because people seem good at the other roles).
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3840813#Comment_3840813
Again an immediate lawsuit that indefinitely paused new content never gave it the chance to spike up from new releases. If DBD got sued for some reason and couldn’t win it would’ve went out the same way. Nobody and I mean almost NOBODY stopped playing because the killer was too strong. They stopped because it got repetitive and with no new content there was nowhere to go.
So again my main point is 100% right. They shutdown because of the lawsuit and that’s it. Plain and simple. It had nothing to do with balance even remotely.
They stopped because it got repetitive and with no new content there was nowhere to go.I don't have a position on why people stopped, but:
1: A game that is one sided is likely to get more repetitive.
2: The player counts decreased substantially from the game release. This decrease happened well before most games would be releasing new content and the numbers are in stark contrast to the progress of DbD over its first few months.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3840820#Comment_3840820
And Ghostface and Legion are the only two Killers that can queue with another one of themselves. 11/10 would 2v8 again.
I mean two ghostfaces just makes sense.
If they did that, they should work into the lore that there have, in fact, always been two ghostfaces.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
I don't think any Killer that spawns stuff in could work. No Plague, Onryo, Pinhead, Nemesis, Wesker, etc. :(
Nemesis and Wesker, but they must always be played together.
Kind of a joke idea, kind of serious. But I think you're correct that killers with spawnables wouldn't really work.
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@Arbmos1998 said:
How is this even remotely possible? 8 Gens to complete with supposed "catch up mechanic" where If the Killers are getting cage stages the Survivors gain 1% gen progression but once completing a gen the Survivors lose 1% gen progression.
The Killers were Blight and Wraith who got 10 Cage stages which isn't even half their objective, no kills. We completed 8 gens in 4 minutes 14 seconds, that's near enough 250 seconds match time which works out to be 31.25 seconds a gen.
The lack is gen regression for Killer in 2v8 is quite sad I feel something interesting could be a basekit Surge so at least there is something. We know Gen regression at base is laughable so I'm not sure why BHVR thought the Guide class would be a good idea to implement.
Could it also be I happened to have hackers on my team? No way of telling becasue the game doesn't have a replay system but there is also clips out there of gens being done in mere seconds with the Guide class.8 Gens to complete with supposed "catch up mechanic" where If the Killers are getting cage stages the Survivors gain 1% gen progression but once completing a gen the Survivors lose 1% gen progression.I think this was a typo somewhere, because I remember seeing it as well, but I don't think it is correct. I believe the correct numbers are +2.5% per hooked survivor and -5% per completed gen.
If the killers are clustered together and the survivors are spread out working on the gens, especially if the killers aren't kicking, this is absolutely possible. Survivors can get lots of progress on the gens before the gen penalty for finishing them starts to hit.
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3840805#Comment_3840805
Almost sounds just lie DBD doesn’t it? Peaks with new content and plummets afterwards. They had a loyal fan base who loved it. Simple.
Except it isn't like DbD at all.
DbD first month on Steam averaged 11k players. They climbed over the first year to 17k players on average, saw a dip in their second year back down to 8.5k players at their absolute lowest, before holding steady through 2017 in the 14k range. 2018 saw growth again with the numbers around 20k. They slightly increased these numbers in 2019, before having the big jump in 2020. Since that point the numbers have been pretty consistent on the monthly average, in the 30k to 40k range with a few outliers.
Friday the 13th never had those numbers, they trended down almost immediately and once they dipped below 1k players they only had three months over the next few years that they managed to top those numbers. F13 went in one overall direction from release, down, while DbD continually grew over its first few years and then has held a steady player base size.
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3840745#Comment_3840745
The point is he won almost all the time easily with very few escapes on average and it was a beloved game by all. A killer that was a real unstoppable (mostly lol) force and survivors were actual survivors doing anything they could to try and survive.
But in this game we have people incessantly crying because they can’t escape all the time. And we have killers who don’t feel like they are the power role at all because they are treated like a joke.
I don’t care that much about winning or losing but the most annoying thing is when survivors don’t respect the killer and swarm them. It makes the killer not feel like a killer at all. That was the beauty of Jason, if they swarmed you and jumped you you would get enraged and they couldn’t jump you anymore. Then they would all panic and run when you started gouging out their friends eyes and they couldn’t stop it.
The point is he won almost all the time easily with very few escapes on average and it was a beloved game by all.This isn't really backed up by the numbers. May and June 2017 the game was averaging around 5.5k players, but then it quickly begins to dip. It might have had some people who really loved it, but there don't seem to have been that many of them.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3840648#Comment_3840648
Just to reinforce your statement in draws, draws are also irrelevant because there are no draws in dbd. Each match is 4 simultaneous 1 v 1 scenarios playing out. As a survivor, you win by escaping and lose by not escaping. There is no actual survivor team. There is no "survivors win!" screen. YOU either escape and win, or YOU die and lose. Due to this, there's no situation in dbd where you could draw in that 1 v 1 outside of the server crashing. A draw requires neither side to win nor lose. Even if people aren't aware of what the devs have stated multiple times that the game is 1 vs 4 individual survivors and instead assume it's a team vs team game, a draw would require neither side to win or lose. You cant have the killer fully lose and half of the survivor team win (2 escapes) and declare a draw, because the survivor "team" had winners in it. Draws have neither side winning nor losing. If the killer fully loses and the survivor "team" has a partial win, then clearly the survivors are the winners in that case. Now like I said, there is no survivor team in dbd, but even if someone claims there "actually is", the whole idea that draws exist just doesn't hold any water. There's no draws in 1 v 1 in dbd, and if you subscribe to the idea that the survivors are a team, there's still no draws because you can't draw with one side losing and one side partially winning. Draws require no winners.
So there's a number of problems with this.
1: The definition of draw is based off the fact that competitions are pretty much always even (synchronous) competitions. Definitions exist for general word usage. Asynchronous games are very rare. It is completely normal to adapt terms from more common activities.
As a community we need a word to refer to 'I killed as many survivors as escaped'. Even, a tie, a draw, etc. all would work, the community has decided on draw.
2: Even if you disregard the above, this whole thread is then pointless. If you can't draw against the survivors (plural) you can't win against the survivors (plural). Kill rate = win rate so a 60% kill rate equals a 60% win rate.
If you want to say survivors aren't a side, okay, but be consistent.
3: On BHVRs views - BHVR has been pretty clear that they are broadly fine with people playing, and viewing, the game however they want. You point out there is no 'survivors win' screen but there is no win screen ever.
Also if we look at game play the idea that BHVR wants each survivor to strictly be out for themselves doesn't look realistic. If one survivor is on hook, and three survivors are in the exit gate, BHVR is fine with them going for the rescue or just leaving. In BHVR's eyes, both are valid ways to play the game. This is a very common situation and over 8 years if they truly thought this was the 'wrong' way to play and that the survivors should just leave, someone would have said so.
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Wow, I didn't realize I missed a math thread.
@drsoontm I once saw a post, likely in jest, that 40+40+40+40 = 160, thus the survivors must be winning every game. When anyone pointed out how that was wrong, the poster would just say they are disagreeing with basic arithmetic.
The problem here as others have pointed out is you are creating the wrong formula. It's not that the formula is wrong, just like the arithmetic above isn't wrong, it just doesn't actually apply to this game. Being there are two distinct possibilities that can result in what you've set up as a killer win (3k and 4k), two distinct possibilities of a killer loss (0k and 1k), along with draws (2ks), and that those possibilities are not equally likely, you can't create a formula without knowing the likelihood of each scenario.
As @Firellius has pointed out, there are gameplay changes you could make that would radically impact the kill rate but not touch the win rate.
@zarr brings up the issue of Nightlight data. At the time I'm posting this there are 7 killers +/- 1 point of the 60% kill rate. The win rates are: 52.9% (Twins - 259 games), 55.49% (Freddy - 322 games), 52.87% (Hag - 244 games), 54.12% (Pig - 499 games), 54.04% (Chucky - 1038 games), 52.12% (Cannibal - 677 games). There are couple of things to see:
1: Despite thousands of games in total, none of the killers are reflecting your hypothesis. All of them are trending in the same direction as well so it not just a sampling error.
2: Despite having nearly identical kill rates, the win rate can vary by over 3% (Cannibal to Freddy). Because there are reasons behind the numbers. Different killers can arrive at the 60% kill rate via different game breakdowns.
This reminds me of a quote I like from Richard Feynman: “It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong”
Your theory about how the win rates should break down doesn't agree with the real world data (experiment).
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I'm enjoying it quite a bit more than last time. I'll see if I'm burned out by the end.
Needs to be Buffed: Deathslinger, TrapperAs just a survivor player in this mode, Trapper seems to do what he is supposed to pretty well, but Deathslinger seems pretty weak.
Needs to be Nerfed: Guide Class, Hillbilly, Blight, Nurse and HuntressI just realized I've seen very few Nurses, so no opinion on them. Hillbilly seems really strong.
Needs to be Changed: Comeback Mechanic for Survivor speed boost changed from in cages to on Death 8%.I think this would be too late. Once survivors start dying the game usually begins to turn rapidly in the killer's favor. I could see spreading out the gen increase more slowly over the hook stages though.
Hex and Boon classes to give use to Totems, Smoke bombs, More Chests.I'm of mixed feelings on survivors classes at the moment. My gut instinct is that we should have more survivor classes, but right now it is pretty easy for survivors to quickly balance the classes out. I think going up to six classes would be a good idea, but if we ever get above 8 its going to be a question of what doesn't get played.
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Enjoying it a lot. Haven't seen the lopsided nature some people are talking about. Survivors are definitely stronger than 1v4, but I think I've only seen 1 8e so far.
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@beater15 said:
1v4 currently gives 150% survivor bonus, with 1 100% bp offering I get more per hour making 2v8 redundant. Why was the bonus lowered from 350% to 250% shortly after release? Killers are having a miserable time trying to find games and there's not much incentive to play survivor.
@beater15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3840136#Comment_3840136
I must have gotten lucky then because I have more escape cakes than I know what to do with
with 1 100% bp offering I get more per hour making 2v8 redundant.I must have gotten lucky then because I have more escape cakes than I know what to do withWhy are you breaking BP bonuses down on per hour basis if you aren't a new player? Do you have some secret plan for those blood points?
Play 2v8 if you like it, the BP bonuses are just minor incentives.
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Well, if you're wearing decent headphones you can track them by hearing, especially once they are injured.
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I felt burned out by 2v8 by the time it ended, but I'm really looking forward to its return. I only played killer a single time because of the que times though and just played survivor.
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@[Deleted User] said:
The math is actually correct, its not manipulated. - but it looks like you are trying to downplay or defuse the facts.
No, the math is wrong because its not using the right equation. @AmpersandUnderscore is correct.
Let me give an example that I thought of after the last time the math discourse happened.
Let's say BHVR changed the game that when there are two survivors left, the gens aren't finished, and the killer down ones, he begins the mori animation immediately and the hatch opens. This would make it much easier for the fourth survivor to escape as it would totally prevent slugging for the 4k and give the survivor a head start.
What would that do to the survivor escape rate? It would increase it. What would it do to the kill rate? It would decrease it. What would it do to the win rate? Absolutely nothing.
Let's go even crazier. Let's say not just one hatch but three hatches pop open. In this type of game the last survivor is now almost always escaping. This would be a substantial increase to escape rates, and a massive decrease to kill rates.
And again, it would not impact the win rate at all.
You can't set up a math formula to determine win rates based on escape / kill rates without knowing the breakdown of the 5 possible game outcomes (0k, 1k, 2k, 3k, 4k). A 60% kill rate could be a win rate as low as 20% (which would require an absurd 80% draw rate) or as high as 80%, but we can see from the data we do have that it hovers around 54%.
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Another DbD player here who is in his 40s. Yeah the reflexes slow down a little bit after awhile, but hopefully your gaming experience gives you much better game sense and keeps you calm in the stressful moments.
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@Vishlumbra said:
It’s been my impression, that as someone replied, most player base seem to play survivor and don’t have experience as killers.
In countless occasions I been clear in not making this debate killers vs survivors. I am not trying to nerf survivors nor I’m trying to buff killers, I’m saying that if the company decides to attend slugging, camping and tunneling, they also have to address the current state of things.
Strategies emerge after countless of tries, practice and effort, currently, with the perks, objectives needed to escape and skill level of players, killers have to sometimes utilize these tactics to win, specially against good groups.
Like I previously said, no one that mains killer sits at home and decides that he is going to destroy the survivor experience by utilizing tactics that the community defines as toxic. You get what you can and you adapt during game.
If I get into my first chase and after the first hit two gens pop, I need to do something to try to win. If by the time I get a hook they need only 2 gens I might need to slug one or at least keep an eye on hook to at least trade. Im not promoting slugging or camping or tunneling, hell, as you can see by my avatar, I main Sadako, one of the weaker killers that’s has the redeeming factor of not needing to get into chases all the time nor camp on hook.
I mentioned competitive as an example to at least inspire a little bit of empathy towards the other side of things, you might feel bad if you get tunneled or slugged but, that coin has another side, which is another person that is also trying to enjoy his gameplay and aim to win.
I think that there are ways to solve these issues, but I rather leave the game as it is, because “buffs” consist in crunching numbers instead of visiting actual issues with the current state of perks, gens and killers.Just look what they did with this update.
Btw the argument of stats that favor Killers 60/40 has a lot of variables and facts you need to consider.
Every survivor in trial has a 40% chance of escaping. The killer, to win the game, needs to beat those 40% odds, three times (to actually manage a 3k).
Also survivors can be crunched together because they are basically re skins. Killers are not created equal, there are clear strong and weak killers yet the stats puts them in the same bowl.
So basically there’s a chance that for example, Dracula win rate is carrying Trapper, so on.It’s been my impression, that as someone replied, most player base seem to play survivor and don’t have experience as killers.Well it's just not true.
While there are always new members of the forums, most people who post have a fair bit of experience with the game. Very few people play one side exclusively.
If I get into my first chase and after the first hit two gens pop, I need to do something to try to win. If by the time I get a hook they need only 2 gens I might need to slug one or at least keep an eye on hook to at least tradeWhen people complain about slugging, this, generally speaking, is not what they are complaining about.
I mentioned competitive as an example to at least inspire a little bit of empathy towards the other side of things, you might feel bad if you get tunneled or slugged but, that coin has another side, which is another person that is also trying to enjoy his gameplay and aim to win.And here is what you're missing about comp. A killer can, if they wish, immediately adopt the camp/tunnel tactic (outside the hook face camps). All you have to do is make the decision you want to play that way and then practice. For survivors to be on the level of a survivor comp team, that survivor needs to seek out three other people who are good at the game and they need to practice playing as a group.
So if we're going to have empathy, look at how easily it is for the killer to adopt those tactics if he wishes, and how much more difficult it is for survivor players.
Every survivor in trial has a 40% chance of escaping. The killer, to win the game, needs to beat those 40% odds, three times (to actually manage a 3k).1: As I mentioned earlier, win conditions are something we create as a community.
2: That's a mangling of statistics. The survivor escape chances are not independent games. If you manage to "beat" (kill) one survivor, the chances of you getting a second one increase substantially. If you kill that survivor, the chances of you getting the third survivor increase even more.
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@Vishlumbra said:
I really dont see why my post has becomed a battle against comp, or killers or trying to protect survivors. I am advocating for leaving the game as it is without implementing more nerfs.
It really makes no sense the arguments you are all giving, mainly because you claim is a matter of MMR and that the game is balanced and not survivor biased because of how some people chose to play. If anyone with higher skill claims or proves something and you all assume he is always wrong and that shouldnt apply to the "real" game, how come EVERY SINGLE TIER LIST OF KILLERS ranks nurse, blight and hillbilly top spot. Have you faced a normal nurse? They are terrible. Same could be said of a bad billy or blight, yet those lists are based on a good skill and performance from above avarage players, how come when it comes to the macro game, that goes out of the window and you all just try to demerit every argument I give. Good survivors are the top tier, not killers. I want survivors nerfed? NO. I want killers BUFFED? NO (At least on a macro level, a few of them could use some buffs, namely Freddy, Onryo, Trapper etc).
I am not fighting against anyone, I am not the one that makes dozens of posts every single day crying about slugging or camping or tunneling, I am trying to make people understand that those are needed strategies. Dont you think there are toxic survivor strategies? Mainly is a fault at design but have you ever faced an unhookable group of survivors, with map offering camping a gen at a top floor? Making hooks invisible, boil over, no mitter etc? If you dont slug they would win 100%. What we doing about those? Should we nerf those perks because it feels bad for the killer? No. It is fine.
I think what we all should be asking for is update for certain killers that are outdated and weak. Asking for real updates to killer powers instead of moving a few numbers (Cough Ghostface), more fun elements to survivor gameplay, new posibilities or maps, good new content, not just judging every single killer as the same and claiming they HAVE to stop the slugging and tunneling. If those were to dissapear, they would have to actually invest a lot of time balancing killers to have better chances of winning.
Btw stats say that with good perks, survivors have a high 35%-40% chance of surviving, in order to tie a game, you have to beat those odds twice. If you aspire to win as killer three times. Can’t really base everything on killers win 60% survivors 40%.
I really dont see why my post has becomed a battle against comp, or killers or trying to protect survivors. I am advocating for leaving the game as it is without implementing more nerfs.As Rulebreaker said, you brought it up. If you bring up something to use as evidence people are going to look at it and analyze other factors and reasons why it doesn't actually support you.
To have a discussion you have to engage with those points. If someone says 'here why comp doesn't support your argument', you can't just ignore it and still have a discussion.
Same could be said of a bad billy or blight, yet those lists are based on a good skill and performance from above avarage players, how come when it comes to the macro game, that goes out of the window and you all just try to demerit every argument I give.A big debate on killer tier lists is whether they should be factored as general playstyles or on absolute levels. Also tier lists are just that, general discussions about the ranks of killers. If you're discussing the overall health of the game, then we need to discuss the overall health of the game.
I am not fighting against anyone, I am not the one that makes dozens of posts every single day crying about slugging or camping or tunneling,It harms your argument to say that you aren't fighting and then immediately point out people as "crying".
I am trying to make people understand that those are needed strategiesAnd people disagree with you and have given a lot of reasons why.
Dont you think there are toxic survivor strategies?Yes, of course there are.
Should we nerf those perks because it feels bad for the killer? No. It is fine.Um, yeah, we should, and BHVR does. Unhookable survivors due to boil over has led to hooks being placed on upper floors (which at times creates its own problems). Buckle up + FTP got demolished, Made for This, etc.
Things that are overpowered or create boring/unfun scenarios should be addressed. Now what is unfun, overpowered, etc. and how to address them are complicated questions, but yes, they should be looked at.
@Vishlumbra said:
The amount of perks, items and possibilities survivors have to rush gens force such strategies, the game has issues regarding balancing killers, making objectives harder and rewarding a different approach from killers.
If survivors played with 0 altruism, they would win wayyyyyyy more and such strategies would be long gone, because by the time you end up tunneling or camping 1, the other 3 would be sitting at 1 gen remaining with a spread gen load out, making it impossible to win for the killer. Altruism is very fun and part of the gameplay as survivor, it comes with a risk and that’s fine, just as slugging, camping or tunneling comes at a risk for the killer.
Imagine if they actually removed tunneling and slugging and camping hooks. How you balance that? Considering the way they “buff” killers, proven by the latest patch notes that make absolutely nothing to solve the issues of the current meta.
If survivors played with 0 altruism, they would win wayyyyyyy moreIt depends what you mean by win, which is not defined by BHVR and different people use different definitions.
@Vishlumbra said:
Those tactics are 99.9% of every competitive game, maybe that’s why it has never been that successful in a viewer / audience way.
I am saying that just asking for nerfs to such tactics, without visiting the core design of the game, would destroy the killer experience, because there’s plenty of possibilities to win as it is for survivors. Killers are not created equal and you can’t expect everyone to always have the best possible experience while playing, if you die fast people will cry about it, if they wrecked the killer, they will say to fix the MMR or that it was boring as hell etc.
I am saying that if we are suggesting eliminating current meta tactics for killers, we have to talk about creating a healthy balance and visit killers powers and current state of hooks, generators etc.
I don’t think there’s a single killer main that sits at home trying to destroy the experience of survivors, they are forced to follow what’s proven to work in current state of the game.
I am saying that if we are suggesting eliminating current meta tactics for killers, we have to talk about creating a healthy balance and visit killers powers and current state of hooks, generators etc.The problem is you're just posting into a vacuum. Every person has different ideas on what they want adjusted, how they want it adjusted, etc. You're just grouping everyone together arguing for change and presuming they're making an extreme one sided change. If you think a particular person's suggestions wouldn't work, respond in their thread with how and why.
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@Vishlumbra said:
Of those you mentioned, only Alien is considered decent tier. Onryo is a joke and needs buffs. Giving killers secondary objectives because there´s a fault in the design to escape is not a solution. Without slugging 4ks are a coin toss. Without tunneling, the game is incredibly hard to win. AGAIN I DO NOT ADVOCATE FOR BUFFING KILLERS. I am trying to provide an insight on why sometimes these kind of strategies are needed. Everyday there is a post, "Slug is bad, tunneling is bad". I think you all forget I also play as survivor and I have also experienced such games, yet I dont think the solution is just assume that every killer is busted and we need to nerf them to the ground.
NOT EVERY SINGLE GAME IS A SLUG FEST. Just as not every game is a nightmare versus a pro killer.
Somebody mentioned competitve where killers tend to win more and thats not the case, the most common result is a draw, and in all 3 leagues of competitive DBD, slugging and camping hook is not only allowed, is needed to win as killer. In those games, where survivors are trying to win, they had to implement a rule where camping is allowed, otherwise the killer would never win.
I think that creating a mechanic where a downed survivor has a 4% chance to stand up or bleed out would make it faster if you allready lost the game WHILE also keeping your BP and avoiding people to just DC before the match ends.
I just dont want more nerfs. I think that most killers mains would agree that a lot of times facing a group of good survivors is not even fun, is just stressful.
In those games, where survivors are trying to win, they had to implement a rule where camping is allowed, otherwise the killer would never win.When people say this I feel like they don't actually realize what is happening in comp.
The killer never wins in comp. The survivors never win in comp. All killers could be perkless M1 Freddy and comp would still be balanced because both sides get a turn as killer. The game is decided by comparing the two matches. A team wins the match, not the killer or survivor.
Comp rules are designed to play the game that the comp players consider the most skillful (taking out a lot of the RNG elements).
Not to mention they aren't even playing for kills, they are playing for hooks. An 8 hook game with no kills is a better result than two kills via six hooks.
Somebody mentioned competitve where killers tend to win more and thats not the case, the most common result is a drawIf you have a stat for that I'd love to see it. Even with the different win conditions, I don't think a 2k is the most common result.
I think that most killers mains would agree that a lot of times facing a group of good survivors is not even fun, is just stressful.I do try to resist labeling people who prefer the killer role, but statements like this make it seem like killer mains just want the easy win.
@Vishlumbra said:
The nerfs are in place so it´s basically an uphill battle against you all I guess. Its borderline comical saying that competitive is not important, those players are basically proving of what each player is capable off, providing with real insight on why certain aspects are unbalanced and basically pointing you in the right direction.
When you have the best Killer players in the planet HAVING to use such strategies to win, that might tell you something about the state of the game. (Which imo, is fine as it is).
I am trying to stop the posture of thinking the game should give even more tools to survivors to win because they feel bad for a lost game.
I am not FEEDING the idea that slugging or tunneling, I am not advocating that that is the way it SHOULD be played, I am saying it is PART of the game and it is needed sometimes, and just because it feels bad being tunneled or being on the ground, that doesnt mean we should nerf every strategy killers come up with to try to win.
When you have the best Killer players in the planet HAVING to use such strategies to win, that might tell you something about the state of the game. (Which imo, is fine as it is).But this is against the best survivors on the planet. We've seen what happens when comp killers (or even non-comp killers) employ these strategies in high MMR pubs (massive win streaks).
As others have mentioned, high MMR is not the same as comp. Even as a high MMR killer you might never face a comp squad as they tend to practice amongst themselves. Hitting a 4 man SWF that is not only in nonstop communication about the game but also has selected themselves based not on social arrangements but for their skill at the game is incredibly rare.
On top of that, you're ignoring the advantages survivors have in comp, namely that they know the killer they are going to face.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836027#Comment_3836027
….Wait why would the best killer need to camp till second stage instead of actually hindering the rest of the survivors? What the heck kinda play is that?
Things like Reassurance and Off the Record are banned in comp, which makes camping much stronger, but people tend to just ignore that when using comp as an example.
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@Vishlumbra said:
Ok, everyday there’s dozens of posts crying about tunneling or slugging and such. Let me try to help you understand something: That’s the idea of the game. It’s supposed to be hard to survive, that’s the thrill of the game.
The game is incredibly survivor sided. You might say:
“Killers hold a 60% win rate” Yes buuuuut this is considering every single tier, skill and mmr division there is. How many times have you had a guy leaving the game after his first hook? People doing glyphs, opening chests or just being silly and not doing the objective? A lot right? If people played to win as survivors, it would be at least a 70-30 survivor win rate.“We don’t believe you!”
Have you seen competitive games? Every single game the killer has to slug, tunnel and camp hook and most of the times he gets a 2k, with all gens completed in 5 minutes.
Please guys, understand that is part of the fun, beating the odds and surviving. Even end game is very survivor sided. Hatch, unbreakable, keys, doors, adrenaline. There’s plenty of chances to survive, just enjoy the fun and stop trying to nerf killers to the ground, at high MMR is already very hard to win and dare I say, stressful as hell.
Ok, everyday there’s dozens of posts crying about tunneling or slugging and such. Let me try to help you understand something: That’s the idea of the game. It’s supposed to be hard to survive, that’s the thrill of the game.The problem with tunneling and slugging is that they are boring. In a tunneling scenario you are either the tunneled target, which means you play a game, or you slam gens and do some body blocking of the killer.
In slugging, if we're talking about full game slugging (part of the problem with slugging discussions is it means a ton of different things), you're just lying on the ground waiting for the game to end.
You can discuss the merits of the game being hard for survivors all you want, I don't disagree, but the killer has incredible easy strategies that require incredibly little skill that can make the game very boring.
If people played to win as survivors, it would be at least a 70-30 survivor win rate.I played a lot of sports when I was younger. If I just got to discount every game with a bad teammate, someone who wasn't as intense as I was, or not as skilled, I'd have a great winning percentage as well.
But you can't just ignore the issue that part of teams is people of different skill levels because that's part of team games.
Have you seen competitive games? Every single game the killer has to slug, tunnel and camp hook and most of the times he gets a 2k, with all gens completed in 5 minutes.I wish competitive games were that quick.
The last three matches of the All Hallows League (DBD League) that have been posted to YouTube involved 14 games
Times: 11:30, 7:00, 8:30, 9:45, 6:00, 7:30, 17:00, 14:00, 7:30. 9:30, 12:00, 13:00, 10:00, 11:30. And the shortest of those games, the 6:00, was a 4k.
@Vishlumbra said:
You are not supposed to win every game. That’s the reality of things. I didn’t imply unbreakable is bad or anything, I mentioned it cause it’s a counter measure to a lot of the complaints. I am not making things up, there’s 3 decent competitive DBD leagues and in all of them, camping is not only allowed and enforced, is needed to have a chance.
If you aspire to win, you have to put in the work and I’m sorry if you lose but it means your team was not focused on winning or you had a good killer which ultimately, makes it fun.
Answering your MMR question, on my main killer I get basically full 100P survivors and it’s incredibly hard, stressful and thrilling, winning games, yet I wouldn’t have it any other way, cause in the end of the match even if I won or I lost, we all had fun and the thrill that has made this game so successful.
Answering your MMR question, on my main killer I get basically full 100P survivorsEither my killer MMR is higher than I think it is, or this is not nearly as rare as some people make it out to be.
@Vishlumbra said:
I feel like I’m not making myself clear here and the point is being deterred from the point I wanted to make.
I mentioned competitive because it’s the evidence that every survivor team has the tools (perks, skills and add ons) to make the killer life a nightmare. That’s how it is.
The main problem with online games (and their best attribute) is that they are in fact social games and you depend on a group not only yourself to perform.
Considering how it goes, when you play survivor you get a higher chance of having people who are just messing around, perhaps just doing a challenge or just trying to be funny and such. When you queue as killer, you are alone and you depend only in yourself to aim for the win.
There’s not an innate biased unbalance towards making killers win, in essence, the ones that have it easier to win are survivors IF they aim for that. Everyone has the choice to play the way they want but that does not mean that they should nerf killers because you need to win because you keep having bad luck on teammates or you are not making yourself better or even aiming to win a match. We all like to win and really sometimes I do get annoyed by over friendly killers who don’t do anything. Sure, I’ll appreciate a display of mercy here and then and some degree of silliness but it seems that you all want that to be the norm and when you don’t get it, boom, you become toxic and want to nerf every possibility the killer has.
Maybe you all don’t play killer or haven’t faced a group of good survivors. It’s tough, you need to be on your A game to have a chance. Slugging is valid if you aiming to win, with some perks is actually the only chance you get, (cough unhookable survivors), tunneling sometimes is needed. It is and I been that survivor that gets deleted during the first 5 mins of the match and I can understand why I was a chance for the killer to win.
High MMR and high rating is inclined to survivors. That’s what the game at its core it’s programmed to be, yet, thanks to certain aspects, matchmaking and general posture of players during a match, killers tend to do slightly better considering the WHOLE ocean of players. But that doesn’t mean they need to keep nerfing every strategy for killers, it is already super frustrating at times aiming for that 4K.
Play to win and you will win most matches. As simple as that. If you are lucky and you get 1,2 or 3 people who want the same, you will win the match. There’s no way to win versus a team that is doing objectives every second and aiming to win. There isn’t really, so, altering more and more and making killers weaker and weaker will only make it worst.
High MMR and high rating is inclined to survivors. That’s what the game at its core it’s programmed to be, yet, thanks to certain aspects, matchmaking and general posture of players during a match, killers tend to do slightly better considering the WHOLE ocean of players.This is not backed up by their stats which they've released for high MMR.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3835824#Comment_3835824
They only really synergize if you don't keep healing though. So if you get a heal in, hooked, second winded, and then another heal (which if you're running We'll Make It you should be trying for), your right back to having second wind as your first proc.
No... they have different activation requirements. Neither supercedes the other. And if you have to heal someone while the perks already charged so what?
And if you get targeted first or another survivor gets the heals, you have two dead perks slots.
No different to Second Wind, except this isn't limited to only unhooks and can be used after you've been targeted first.
What can I say, after runing Second Wind religiously for months, you learn not to get targeted first. There's always a more reckless survivor, usually carrying a flashlight.
No... they have different activation requirements. Neither supercedes the other. And if you have to heal someone while the perks already charged so what?You can only get to full health, there's no super health state, that's what I mean by super cedes. Second Wind is going to be doing the healing, and, even if you have a situation where it doesn't come up but you're running a medkit like in your original scenario, a single styptic would be far superior.
The so what is that it is a wasted slot that could be doing something else.
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@Seraphor said:
Spend time healing. Or you spend no time healing and then get an instant heal in 60 seconds.
Is the same logic as Second Wind/Renewal.
You use that time doing something else.
What's more is that these two perks synergise. By healing one survivor, you charge up two instant heals for yourself. Throw on We'll Make It and a decent medkit and you get 3 heals in about 5 seconds; the heal on the survivor you just unhooked, the heal the next time you get unhooked, and another heal the next time someone tries to heal you.
What's more is that these two perks synergise. By healing one survivor, you charge up two instant heals for yourself. Throw on We'll Make It and a decent medkit and you get 3 heals in about 5 secondsThey only really synergize if you don't keep healing though. So if you get a heal in, hooked, second winded, and then another heal (which if you're running We'll Make It you should be trying for), your right back to having second wind as your first proc.
And if you get targeted first or another survivor gets the heals, you have two dead perks slots.
And this is one of those perks that becomes weaker the more survivors run it as you are now competing for the same thing.
It seems like a massive investment on perks, especially if you bring a medkit, where instead you could just bring a medkit with a syringe and some extra charges, and get two heals on yourself without the need to find someone to heal, and the trade off on time seems more than made up for on the risk of all that time broken where the killer might find you plus you get to use those extra perk slots for something else.
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@bubbamain_0230 said:
I like games that come down to the wire. In my opinion those are the best kinds of games. Not knowing who’s going to win.
but recently when I play killer I win within the first few minutes. And it’s not really enjoyable. Yes I like winning but it’s not fun when the survivors just stand still and wait for me to kill them.
I’m serious when I say they just stand still and don’t do anything. I like the chase. I like being chased and I like chasing survivors. It helps me when I play survivor to know what to do around loops.
but like I said before every game is just a 4k win without any resistance from the survivors.
should I even be complaining? I don’t know weather to be happy or frustrated. It’s just getting old now, and it’s not fun really.This is my main problem with killer. Even if 75% of my games are a challenge and fair (and its under that), those games that are easy wins are the worst. The game just becomes a boring slog because even though its evident you've won, you still have to hunt down the remaining survivors and it all feels pointless.
Time of day can be a big factor, but most people just can't change what time of day they have available to play games and it seems to be incredibly region dependent. I recommend playing with some type of handicap. Run less perks, or go entirely perkless. This does mean, on occasion, you'll get smashed, but it makes the majority of matches better.
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@Nazzzak said:
It'll be handy when on a gen injured and another survivor runs up. You can activate it then keep going on the gen together.
This just seems like such a niche scenario with so many downsides and/or better options.
If you haven't gotten to heal someone yet and the survivor coming up isn't injured, you can't use the perk.
If you haven't gotten to heal someone yet and the survivor coming is injured, solidarity might be a better option (I never expected to say 'solidarity would be a better option').
If you have got a heal in, but then got injured, hooked, and unhooked, second wind would be better.
If the survivor coming to heal you has a heal build, then the time savings are considerably less.
Even if you pull this off, if the killer comes along within the 60 seconds and downs you, it might have been better to take the heal.
So you need a scenario where you get a heal, you get injured, you don't get hooked, another survivor comes to you, you activate this, and your next encounter with the killer is long enough for the heal to trigger. So if you hit a killer using an anti-heal hit and run build I guess it would shine.
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The 20 second exposed is interesting. If the killer is hard tunneling, they were probably going to hit the survivor on the way in and it was going to be a trade anyway, so the exposed doesn't matter. If the killer isn't tunneling at all then the 20 seconds will likely be gone before they get back. So the 20 seconds will only be relevant if the killer is kind of in the area already, or playing something like a Dredge who can get back instantly.
Though it makes borrowed time have some more use potentially as the unhook now can body block out the exposed.
I'm fine with it as a perk. I don't think it will be completely useless in soloq, but its obviously much stronger for SWFs.
@raevell said:
My biggest issue with it is you will not see this used in solo queue, the part of the game that needs the most help, but it's going to be disgusting with even a half competent SWF. Imagine 3 people running this and then just having the same survivor get in your face body blocking you while fully healed with OTR (because it doesn't deactivate when someone heals them) and if you do catch them it can be mitigated by someone else taking that hook instead.
And they can then go and do it AGAIN. Very niche thing that can be easily done in a SWF.
Absolutely awful idea and will encourage hook proxying even more to make sure you get the exposed survivor.
Imagine 3 people running this and then just having the same survivor get in your face body blocking you while fully healed with OTR (because it doesn't deactivate when someone heals them) and if you do catch them it can be mitigated by someone else taking that hook instead.Scenarios like this always though imagine that everything lines up just right for the survivors. What if a different survivor is found off the start? What if it is a killer that can ignore or chew through body blocks? What if the killer is happy with slugging?
Sure, if the survivors come in with this strategy, and they get the right killer to use it against, and the killer plays into it, it would be powerful, but that's a lot of "ifs" that are outside the survivors control.
Or the survivors could just ignore the complex planning and just gen rush.
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Wouldn't running second wind make more sense then this perk? Outside hit and run playstyles (which are pretty rare), if you're getting injured, you're probably getting targeted and downed, and the second wind timer is much shorter.
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@イエローミント said:
Wouldn't it be better if the killer won as soon as the hatch is closed? The End Game Collapse after the hatch is closed always feels like wasted time.
But how would it feel to just have the match 'end'?
It's kind of similar to the idea of giving the killer and/or survivors a surrender option. For those who play the game constantly eliminating that end game would be preferable, but from a game design standpoint you're hoping for some type of climatic ending.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833647#Comment_3833647
If they're standing in the exit gate, how are they helping the fourth survivor?I guess I should be more clear. I was referring to scenarios where 3 survivors are safe and can escape with zero risk, but they instead choose to save the 4th to get them out as well instead of just taking the win right away. The argument was regarding why killers would ever want to secure the 4k when a 3k is already a win, so it was creating a relative parallel. Guess I should have worded it better.
That said, I disagree with your argument separating the two. While you are right that survivors are generally not having fun during the slug scenario, if the killer is losing badly and just wants to secure one kill at the end of the game, they are probably having as much fun as the slug/hider. While its certainly true that it can be a more dynamic experience, that doesn't rule out the scenarios where they would rather just be done with the match.
That said, I disagree with your argument separating the two. While you are right that survivors are generally not having fun during the slug scenario, if the killer is losing badly and just wants to secure one kill at the end of the game, they are probably having as much fun as the slug/hider.Being its subjective and we're talking about fun it's hard to offer any type of definitive proof, but to give an observation: in 4k slug situations it is pretty normal for the survivor to go AFK or DC, while this seems considerably more rare in the 4e vs defend the hook scenario. If people are still engaging with the game they might be stressed or frustrated, but they are still engaging with the game. I think engagement is a good way to compare whether people are enjoying the game.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832187#Comment_3832187
Why are survivors so inclined to get all 4 survivors out when 3 are standing in the exit gate?
If you have already won, but you can win more, people generally prefer the more satisfying win.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832193#Comment_3832193
This is true, but thats also a player's personal prioritization due to the nature of the game. Its like how there is no clear answer on escaping via hatch, since some call it a win since their personal wincon is specifically about surviving, not necessarily the MMR based one (leaving via the gate only.)
People who play for the 4K are doing nothing wrong with that act alone, just like survivors who play for the 4E. How either side gets there is the more relevant discussion imo.
Why are survivors so inclined to get all 4 survivors out when 3 are standing in the exit gate?If they're standing in the exit gate, how are they helping the fourth survivor?
If you have already won, but you can winmore,people generally prefer the more satisfying win.If this was just in a vacuum, sure. But its not and we have to look at what it is happening as a game that is meant to be fun.
In the 4k scenario, the killer is searching the map while one survivor is staying behind a rock or hiding in a locker and the other survivor is on the ground for up to 4 minutes. Very few people seem to be having fun in this scenario.
Now take the 4e scenario. The killer has a survivor on hook and is waiting for the others to rush in. There's probably some boredom initially as the survivors heal up, but otherwise you still have a game. The survivors are trying to bait out the killer while the killer is trying to draw them into a mistake.
On top of that, the survivors are engaging in 'risk'. If they mess up the rescue, or there is a NOED in play (or a much less likely blood warden), they could lose out on more than they hoped to gain. That makes it exciting and fun. With the 4k there's virtually no risk slugging.
So one activity is still a game that carries risk and engages players on both sides, while the other is a riskless activity where not much happens and one player is effectively trapped.
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Unlikely to work. Sometimes when it is reduced to two survivors, the game is still competitive (one gen remaining with progress), while in other situations the survivors would just sacrifice on hook even quicker to try and get to the hatch situation so they could get some escapes.
Though the above is a general problem with pretty much any solution I've seen to the 2v1 scenario.
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@Vishlumbra said:
Personally I think Sadako is a super fun killer. She is my main and I enjoy her so much.
I think there’s room for a few improvements:1- When a survivor reaches full condem, make them exposed and broken until you down them or they deliver the tape. This makes condemn a bit more impactful.
2- Give her a slight speed increase if you Demanifest - Manifest. That would help on chases.
3- Downing a survivor carrying a tape and hooking him, gives everyone a condemned stack, basekit.Sadako is my main as well and the suggestions between your two posts aren't so much improvements as they are massive buffs.
A full condemn should at least injure the survivor. I think it would help a bit. I mean, Pig traps for example, they have dire consequences and you are not forced to chase anyone or down them for them to have a Mori effect.But Pigs traps are limited in how many you have and they deactivate in chase.
Condemn and Pigs traps aren't meant to be ways that the killer can win. They are meant to provide slow down which, if the survivors push it, can be a way to eliminate the survivor.