crogers271
crogers271
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When gen regression was strong1: Your use of the word strong. If anything is overpowered, that's an issue on its on.
2: Anything that grinds the game to a halt. The game is supposed to be tense, things like camping and old 3 genning ruin the experience.
Example: Back in the days before AFC the strategy against Bubba was just ignore the hook and do gens. I was in a few games like that, one survivor gets hooked, Bubba camps the hook, the rest of do gens and then leave. Wasn't fun to escape, wasn't fun for the person on hook, and doubt it was that fun for the Bubba. It was balanced, but not fun.
As a killer, you can play however you want. My issue is more with what I think BHVR should do.
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@Hex_this said:
As some of you may have seen BHVR are on the hunt for an artist who was originally going to be a finalist for the cosmetic contest, this is their original post.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/325YLXHWSRGD/screenshot-20240923-161551.png
Now I love this skin and I'd have loved if it was a finalist for voting however the post makes it seem it'll be added to the game automatically if the artist gets in contact which goes against the contests rules for this year's voting process.
I fear they may have shot themselves in the foot with this one as any artist who loses the vote would likely feel cheated if one submission gets in automatically.
it'll be added to the game automatically if the artist gets in contactI disagree that is what the wording means. BHVR controls which finalists are selected via their judging panel, anything they select would be something they would love to have in the game.
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@Valuetown said:
Hens just released a video of his "best builds" for every killer. After sorting through the data, this is what I found:
- Corrupt is present in 72.22% of builds
- Pain Res is present in 61.11% of builds
- Grim Embrace is present in 55.56% of builds
- Ruin is present in 38.89% of builds
- Undying is present in 27.78% of builds
- Pentimento is present in 19.44% of builds
- Sloppy Butcher is present in 13.89% of builds
- BBQ, Rapid, and Blood Favor are all present in 11.11% of builds
- The other 14 perks found were individually used less than 9% of the time
A total of 24 perks of the 124 total killer perks available were used. This is 19.35% of the total available killer perks that are being utilized for a competitive chance at winning.
Of the killers to buy for a new player:
- Artist has a 100% return on investment, with all 3 of her perks being extremely meta
- Blight has a 66.66% return on investment, with only 2 of his perks being meta
- Both Hag and Plague have a 33.33% return on investment, with only 1 of each of their perks being meta (totem builds specifically)
The question of the decade is: why?
Why is the current state of the game allowed to exist like this? People act as if they don't know why the general feeling of the game is at an all time low for survivors, well here is the data. Survivors can barely finish a single generator before the killer snowball starts, meaning all gen progression is halted. Most of the time, killers win with at least 3 gens remaining.I understand the need for gen regression, but this is way too much. The arbitrary 60% kill rate target across the board needs to be adjusted, or the base game mechanics of this game need to be overhauled. Introduce a secondary objective as an alternative win condition for both sides (not hatch). Make chases more interactive, giving agency to both survivor and killer. Give each map interactable elements unique to that specific realm that either act as a win condition or will help whichever side spent time interacting with said elements. ANYTHING so we can get away from this stale and boring gen slowdown meta. If all those options are off the table, corrupt and pain res both need significant nerfs.
What are the community's thoughts on this?
It shouldn't really be surprising that whatever one person thinks is the ideal build is going to remain pretty constant between killers. You could group killers into a few broad categories and you'd expect even more perk similarity between them.
As for why gen slowdown? It's the most predictable. On the far end of the other side is Hex: Devour Hope which can either win you a game on its own or be absolutely useless. Even something like Batteries Included might get a lot of value if you get into a couple of chases around gens, but also might not get anything. If you're looking for consistency (which the comp scene emphasizes and kill streaks require), you want perks that give you predictable levels of value.
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One problem, though it's easily corrected, is if a killer still tunnels, he get a free 10 seconds of slowdown on the first survivor hooked.
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@StarstruckFrog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3805555#Comment_3805555
Nobody has done a notable winstreak with trickster since his rework, and the point you bring up about main event is irrelevant to me because I don't play trickster to play Main Event sim. His power became unpleasant to use unless you spam main event which every trickster player will tell you is boring.
Regardless, I'm merely making a point that people invest time and bloodpoints into characters with no guarantee they will even be fun to play after a random, unannounced update. Dev communication needs to be more clear in the future, or they should offer bloodpoint refunds for characters so i can invest them into other characters I would rather play. I don't see how this is unreasonable to ask. Acting like I shouldn't be allowed to be upset when I invest time and BP into something only for it to basically no longer exist is just weird, and your metaphor doesn't even make sense. You sound like someone who has not experienced this problem yet wants to speak for people who do.
Regardless, I'm merely making a point that people invest time and bloodpoints into characters with no guarantee they will even be fun to play after a random, unannounced update.Invest is a weird phrase. The game is not work. You don't invest time in characters, you play them for fun. If at some point it becomes no longer fun, it's understandable to be upset about the change, but you haven't lost anything.
Dev communication needs to be more clear in the futureCommunications about what? It's a live service game. Do you think when you picked up Trickster the changes were their long term plan?
I don't see how this is unreasonable to ask.It's unreasonable because every time they've made a change to a killer that was anything other than a straight buff I'm sure there is a main of that killer who has been upset.
Acting like I shouldn't be allowed to be upset when I invest time and BP into something only for it to basically no longer exist is just weirdYou're allowed to be upset. Everyone has the right to their opinion and feelings about the game.
It's the idea that you should be upset about the 'investment' that I'm struggling with.
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She is healthy for the game but was killed in this update.She's not healthy for the game. It's as simple as that.
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Should it be? Probably.
Should BHVR makes it easier for the game to end in such situations? Definitely.
Is it? No.
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@sanees said:
Hi, I love the concept of hex perks, a strong perk that can be completely disabled if survivors take care of it, but the problem is that many hex perks either can be destroyed faster than killer can just approach them, or are too weak and do not deserve the hex title at all ( hello hex two can play)
However, after seeing information in the PTB that BHVR decided to buff hex Crowd Control I thought Survivors have a lot of anti-totem perks, but I literally never see them in my games, so I wondered what the balance might look like if both sides took Totem perks more often
Don't forget to write a comment. It will be very interesting to read how you would change the state of the hex and its perks
Survivors:
general changes:
- In the lobby and in the game, by pressing Tab, survivors can see each other's perks and items and items quality
- screams and hits no reset the totem's progress, instead the totem now regresses at a rate of 5% per second
- Survivors cannot bless hex totems
- Hex Totem сleansing time increased to 32 seconds
Items:
- Broken Key: having a broken key allows you to break totems 25% faster
Perks:
Counterforce : You cleanse Totems 20 % faster.
Gain another, stack-able 20 % Cleansing Speed bonus per cleansed Totem.
After cleansing a Totem, the Aura of the Totem farthest from you is revealed to you for 2/3/4 seconds.
Buff: You start cleanse Totems 25% faster.
Gain another, stack-able 25% Cleansing Speed bonus per cleansed Totem.
After cleansing a Totem, the Aura of the Totem farthest from you is revealed to you for 5/7/10 seconds.
Killers:
Perks
Hex Crowd Control:
Whenever any Survivor performs a Rushed Action to vault a Window , Hex: Crowd Control triggers its effect:
Hex Ruin:
A Hex that affects the Generator Repair progress of all Survivors. Whenever a Generator
is not being repaired by a Survivor, it will immediately and automatically regress its Repair progress at 50/75/100 % of the normal Regression speed.
Buff: every time you hang a new unique survivor on a hook you receive a token and increase the generator's regression rate by 50% If a survivor die bonus turns off
Hex Blood Favour:
Whenever a Survivor loses a Health State, by any means and thus enters the Injured State or the Dying State, Hex: Blood Favour calls upon The Entity to block all Pallets within 24/28/32 meters of that Survivor's location from being pulled down for the next 15 seconds.
Buff: increases pallet blocking time to 30 seconds
Hex Devour Hope:
Whenever a Survivor is rescued from a Hook while you are at least 24 metres away, Hex: Devour Hope is granted +1 Token, up to a maximum of 5 Tokens:
2 Tokens: Grants a 3/4/5 % Haste
Status Effect for 10 seconds after 10 seconds of having hooked a Survivor.
3 Tokens: causes all Survivors to suffer from a permanent Exposed
5 Tokens: grants the ability to kill all Survivors by your own hand.
Since Devour Hope is already a good perk, increasing the totem's break time can be too oppressive for solo players, so it received a slight nerf
Nerf: totem containing devour hope breaks 30% faster
Buff: Haste status effect after hook lasts 10 seconds longer
Hex Haunted Ground:
Two trapped Hex Totems will spawn in the Trial Grounds.
When either Hex Totem is cleansed or blessed, all Survivors
suffer from the Exposed Status Effect for 40/50/60 seconds.
The second Hex Totem will immediately turn into a Dull Totem.
Buff: suffer from the Exposed Status Effect for 60/70/80 seconds
Hex Huntress Lullaby:
If Survivors failing a Repair Skill Check
instantly regress the Generator by 2/4/6 % of its maximum possible Progression in addition to the default Progression penalty.
Survivors failing a Healing Skill Check instantly regress the Healing Action by 2/4/6 % of its maximum possible Progression in addition to the default Progression penalty.
Each time a Survivor is hooked, Hex: Huntress Lullaby grows in power and gains 1 Token, up to a maximum of 5 Tokens.
Each Token reduces the timer between the Skill Check Warning cue and the Skill Check appearing for both Repair and Healing Skill Checks:
1 Token: reduction of -14 %.
2 Tokens: reduction of -28 %.
3 Tokens: reduction of -42 %.
4 Tokens: reduction of -56 %.
5 Tokens: complete suppression of the Warning cue.
Buff: Each Token reduces the timer between the Skill Check Warning cue and the Skill Check appearing for both Repair and Healing Skill Checks:
1 Token: reduction of 40%
2 Token: reduction of 80%
3 Token: complete suppression of the Warning cue.
Hex No One Escapes Death:
Once the Exit Gates are powered, if there is still a Dull Totem
remaining in the environment, Hex: No One Escapes Death activates and lights it:
Grants a 2/3/4 % Haste Status Effect.
Causes all Survivors to suffer permanently from the Exposed Status Effect.
Hex: No One Escapes Death remains inactive if no Dull Totems are available.
Once the Status Effect is revealed to Survivors, Hex: No One Escapes Death reveals the Aura of its Hex Totem to all Survivors within 4 meters and gradually expands that range to 24 meters over the course of 30 seconds.
Nerf: totem containing NOED breaks 50% faster
Hex Pentimento:
You see the Auras of cleansed Totems
You can perform a ritual on a cleansed Totem to resurrect it as a Rekindled Totem.
For each Rekindled Totem active at the same time, Hex: Pentimento gains an additional effect:
1 Totem: reduces all Survivors' Repair speed by 20/25/30 %.
2 Totems: reduces all Survivors' Healing speed by 20/25/30 %.
3 Totems: reduces all Survivors' Recovery speed from being downed by 20/25/30 %.
4 Totems: reduces all Survivors' Exit Gate Opening speed by 20/25/30 %.
5 Totems: all Totems are permanently blocked by The Entity
Changes: Since the 30% repair slowdown for 1 token can be too oppressive, now 1 token and 2 are swapped
1 Totem: reduces all Survivors' Healing speed by 20/25/30 %
2 Totem: reduces all Survivors' Repair speed by 20/25/30 %
Hex Two Can Play:
Anytime you are stunned or blinded by any Survivor a total of 4/3/2 times, and if there is not yet a Hex Totem already associated with Hex: Two Can Play and there is at least one Dull Totem remaining in the Trial Grounds, Hex: Two Can Play activates on a random Totem:
Blinds any Survivors who stun or blind you for 1.5 seconds.
This does not affect carried Survivors.
Buff: Anytime you are stunned or blinded by any Survivor a total of 3/2/1 times
Blinded Survivors who stun or blind you for 4 seconds.
Hex Wretched Fate:
After a Generator is completed, Hex: Wretched Fate activates and lights a random Dull Totem, cursing the Obsession:
Reduces their Repair speed by 27/30/33 %.
The Aura of the Hex Totem is revealed to them within 12 meters.
Change: After a Generator is completed the obsession receives a 50% repair slowdown
The Aura of the Hex Totem is revealed for everyone within 12 meters
Hex Face the Darkness:
Whenever you injure a Survivor by any means, if there is still a Dull Totem remaining on the Map, Hex: Face the Darkness activates and lights it, cursing that Survivor:
Causes all other Survivors to scream every 35/30/25 seconds, if they are outside of the Terror Radius, revealing their Auras for 2 seconds each time.
Hex: Face the Darkness deactivates once the Cursed Survivor either enters the Dying State
or is fully healed, which extinguishes the Totem.
Buff: Causes all other Survivors to scream every 35/30/25 seconds, if they are outside of the Terror Radius, revealing their Auras for 2 seconds each time and take Exhausted by 25 second
Hex The Third Seal:
The last 2/3/4 Survivors you hit with a Basic or Special Attack suffer permanently from the Blindness Status Effect.
Buff: The last 2/3/4 Survivors you hit with a Basic or Special Attack suffer permanently from the Blindness Status Effect and additionally Oblivious Status Effect for 30 seconds
Hex Thrill of the Hunt:
For each Totem remaining in the environment, Hex: Thrill of the Hunt is granted 1 Token.
For each Token, all Survivors suffer from a stack-able 8/9/10 % Action Speed penalty to Cleansing and Blessing Totems, up to a maximum of 40/45/50 %.
Grants a stack-able 10 % bonus Bloodpointsfor actions in the Hunter Category per Token, up to a maximum of 50 %.
Buff: Reduces the time required to obtain bloodlust by 2.5 seconds
Hex Undying:
The Auras of Survivors within 2/3/4 metres of any Dull Totem are revealed to you.
When another Perk's Hex Totem is cleansed or blessed, its Hex is transferred to the Hex: Undying Totem, including any accumulated Tokens, disabling Hex: Undying instead.
Buff: 1 random Dull totem will look like hex
Hex Retribution:
Survivors cleansing or blessing any Totem suffer from the Oblivious Status Effect for 35/40/45 seconds.
After cleansing or blessing a Hex Totem, the Auras of all Survivors are revealed to you for 15 seconds.
Buff: After destroying totem, the killer receives a 5% bonus to movement speed for 15 seconds
Shattered Hope: Instead of snuffing Boon Totems you destroy them.
Destroying a Boon Totem this way reveals the Auras of all Survivors that were within its range at that moment for 6/7/8 seconds.
Buff: When you hang survivor on a hook 1 random bun totem breaks
Dominance:
Calls upon The Entity to block Chests and Totem for 4/6/8 seconds that are interacted with by a Survivor for the first time in the Trial.
The Auras of blocked Chests and Totems are revealed to you in white.
Buff: Entity to block Chests and Totem for 15/20/25 seconds that are interacted with by a Survivor for the first time in the Trial.
In the lobby and in the game, by pressing Tab, survivors can see each other's perks and items and items qualityI'd like it, but I don't see what it has to do with everything else and they've said they want to avoid this.
screams and hits no reset the totem's progress, instead the totem now regresses at a rate of 5% per secondSure.
Survivors cannot bless hex totemsWhy not?
Hex Totem сleansing time increased to 32 secondsThis is meant to offset the 'hexs don't decrease', but this just seems too long. The current setup allows tension, this seems like it would be a bit boring.
Overall: You mention the dangers of hex perks in that you can lose the effect entirely. On the other hand, sometimes hex perks spawn in really easily defendable locations, and a 32 second break would be way too long.
I think that if they wanted to make hex perks more of a game element (which I don't think they do, I think they are happy with how they work, but hypothetically), you're right that you'd need to change them on both sides. I think it would be necessary to make them into more of a strategic objective instead of a random luck one. Change: everyone can see the aura of hex totems and they cannot be broken in the first minute of the match. Then both sides could make a strategic decision on how they play the match and whether going for/protecting the hex is a worthwhile goal. You would then incorporate your ideas of the degradation of hex progress and an increase to the cleansing time (though probably not 32 seconds).
That creates a new problem, anytime you add a strategic layer you create a gulf between SWFs and soloq.
Those are my thoughts on how I'd approach it, but I'm pretty happy with how hex perks work.
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@soapkillsgerms said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3804489#Comment_3804489
Is this for real? So if survivors find zombies oppressive and they will complain on the internet and sacrifice themselves on hook then Nemesis gets hardcore nerfed and we all have to wait 1 or more years to see a full rework?
That's disgusting.
It's not about Internet complaints. It's about what actually happens in games against her. People can complain all they want about Nemesis, but if BHVR's data and internal testers all say its a good killer, the complaints won't go anywhere.
And the number of people who need to try and sabotage games to get that type of effect is not a practical concern.
People loathe Skull Merchant. I'm surprised its taken them this long to take this step.
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When I run blast mine, I usually will pair it with wiretap. My goal is to drop it on a central gen for the wiretap value, but can also be useful if I'm on the gen and the killer comes towards me. Kick the gen, I get away, do not kick the gen I have aura read.
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@Garresh said:
No not bias towards survivors. Survivorship Bias.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
In short terms, survivorship bias is a statistical bias when interpreting data, where only certain data is collected because other sources don't "survive" to be collected. Now onto the meat of it.
Dead by Daylight devs put a strong focus on balancing around kill rates. This makes sense on the surface, but anyone who plays will tell you some killers are better at pub vs swf, or high skill vs low skill. That makes kill rates a dubious metric.
But it gets a lot worse when you consider how MMR is calculated. MMR is calculated on a per killer basis. This means that mmr levels per killer will fluctuate wildly even for a single player. Furthermore, as a player moves up in mmr on a particular killer, they may find themselves hitting a wall or getting frustrated. They naturally switch to a better killer. This creates an MMR bias where weaker killers will be much less likely to REACH high mmr.
Sure you have your absolute legends who take a Trapper or Pig to high mmr, but this requires they play at such a high level that they are effectively much better than players in their bracket. All of this bias means kill rates are even less meaningful than they would be in other multiplayer games. Because the survivorship bias means that bad killers will be more common in low mmr, even for a sample size of high mmr killer players!
All of this together paints an atrocious picture. Kill rates are always questionable as a metric in any game. But because DBD locks each killer in a separate box even for the same player, kill rates becomes completely meaningless. I have to question if anyone at Behavior is aware of this, or even the community at large.
The compartmentalization of killer MMR destroys any attempt at data collection, because skill levels are not standardized.
Survivorship bias: Of all the forms of selection bias that exist, not sure why you went with this.
But that's not hugely important, people talk about selective remembering of data pretty frequently. I've seen BHVR discuss it as well.
Dead by Daylight devs put a strong focus on balancing around kill rates.I wouldn't say a strong focus and I think this is a common mistake people make. Every time I've seen BHVR post about this they've discussed having multiple factors they consider in balancing a killer.
This makes sense on the surface, but anyone who plays will tell you some killers are better at pub vs swf, or high skill vs low skill.BHVR would probably tell you this as well. It's a presumption that BHVR doesn't want the killers to be unbalanced. They seem absolutely okay with some killers being starting killers, and others being the killers you play once you get good at the game.
Kill rates are always questionable as a metric in any game. But because DBD locks each killer in a separate box even for the same player, kill rates becomes completely meaningless.If you assumed that was all they were going off of, then yes. However BHVR's internal data almost certainly allows them to break the killer performances down by different MMR brackets.
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@Burgerking_myers said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3801725#Comment_3801725
I thought this was a party game?
The people running the party have a responsibility to make sure the largest amount of people possible are having fun.
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@Ujin said:
First, I would like to apologize for the language, but this is my first post ever and in a language other than my native. Yes, I use Google Translate.
Maybe someone somewhere has already suggested something similar, but this post is not meant to be a revelation of how SM should look like to be perfect. I'm using the moment to share my idea.
Is it strong?: - No
Is it balanced? -Maybe
Is it boring? -Depends on the player.
SM CHANGES
- SM is invisible from a distance greater than 20m from survivors.
- When downing the Survivor, the Claw Trap will be destroyed.
- When destroying the Claw Trap, the SM will recover one drone
SPECIAL ABILITY: EYES IN THE SKY
- After pressing RMB, SM deploys a drone. The drone will face the same direction as SM while deploying.
Special Ability: Trap Overload
- Overload affects Survivors with at least 1 charge.
- After pressing CTRL, activate Trap Overload after 1,5s. When activated, all active Claw Traps will be overloaded for 2s. If Survivors moves or take any action will be Electrocuted.
- Claw Trap battery will be reduced to 0 charges after Overload
- Electrocute: Survivor is forced to scream, loses health, state and cannot perform any actions for 5 seconds. (dropping pallets, jumping volt, sliding on pallets, healing, blessing, repairing generators.)
(if survivor is already wounded, instead of damage they get deep wounds, 10% hindered for 5s and Broken for 30s)
Drones:
- SM has 8 drones
- Every killed survivor reduces the maximum number of drones by 2
- Drone detection radius is invisible to survivors.
- Drones do not rotate.
- Area in which drone is able to detect a survivor is a semicircle with radius of 12 meters.
- Drone does not detect survivors who are stationary, crouching, opening gates and working on generator.
- After detecting survivor, drone is destroyed, and claw trap is placed on survivor
- Minimum distance of the drone from the hook 14m
Radar:
- After holding RMB, turn on radar. After pressing, it again, radar will turn off.
- Radar shows the locations of Survivors affected by the Claw Trap
- Pressing CTRL while the Radar is active disables the marked Drone for 5 seconds, during which it rotates 180°
- Holding CTRL while the Radar is active on marked Drone, destroy it and retrieving one charge of drones.
Claw Trap
- From the moment the Claw Trap is deployed, the timer starts counting down to 0 if there are any available Battery charges. The timer will be reset and the charge removed.
- The Claw Trap starts with 5 battery charges.
- Each charge lasts 60 seconds
- A Survivor with the Claw Trap equipped gains the Oblivious effect.
- The Survivor can speed up the battery drain:
- Alone: 50% additional drain speed. Attempting to remove the Claw Trap will require the Survivor to make Hard Skill Checks and Hack the Trap.
- Altruistic: 200% additional drain speed. Attempting to remove the Claw Trap will require the Survivor to make Easy Skill Checks and Hack the Trap.
- When a Survivor is working on a trap and the charge is nearing its lower limit (last second), the Survivor will need to perform a Hack the Trap minigame. If the Survivor succeeds, 25 seconds will reduce from the next battery charge. If the Survivor fails, they will be Electrocuted.
- Hack the Trap: The Survivor will need to press 7 directional buttons in a row within 10 seconds.
- Battery charges will automatically decrease if Survivor is not working on trap and a certain time has passed.
- Once the battery reaches 0 charges, the Survivor can remove the Claw Trap by placing it under themselves.If Survivor crouch, they can throw the trap 15m away instead.
- Once removed, the Claw Trap is visible on the radar for 15 seconds before it is destroyed.
- A Survivor with a Claw Trap can see the drones' activation radius (24m).
- If a Survivor runs through the activation area while under the effects of the Claw Trap, the trap will gain one additional battery charge.
And that's it, I hope no one went blind after reading this post. To anyone who reads this, thank you for your time. I encourage you to leave a comment with criticism, there might be something I don't see. Just please do more than just "delete SM" or call me an idiot for the idea.
How do claw traps end up on the survivor? That isn't clear to me from your rework idea.
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No, there isn't a single killer who is even close to deserving what happened to Skull Merchant.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3801587#Comment_3801587
I really have to question whether the MMR is “botched” because as it has been stated, this happens to killers, but it also happens to survivors where you just get a killer that you can steamroll.
Personally, I think this is by design. I don’t think it’s botched. I think it’s on purpose. Think about it. You have a couple of rough matches or you have some really close ones where you either draw or barely win or you lose. Then, the next thing you know you have two or three matches, where you’re just absolutely tearing it up. Kind of lifts your spirits when you’re doing well. I think that is intentional. I don’t think it’s a mistake at all. I think the developers know how this game can go for either side, and it has been implemented into this game that after so many normal matches (against people in your skill bracket) it throws you a bone for a few matches.
It happens far too regularly for it not to be by design. And when you get those matches where you get completely steam rolled, I think you were just the chosen one for someone else being tossed a bone. It would make sense that this is the case just considering the frequency.
I have many more games that are competitive (meaning, it can go either way, and that tells me that the matches that I am in are where I belong) but consistently I get a handful of matches as killer or survivor that are just one sided (some in my favor, and some not in my favor) that always seem to occur after a normal match stretch.
I can go 10 games where every game is definitely winnable by either side, but then I have three where it’s just an absolute slaughter and we steamroll the killer. Play another 10 normal matches then I’ll get two or three with a killer that absolutely destroys us.
I think it’s by design. I think the swing is by design to give everyone that dopamine high from winning decisively. Sometimes it’s your turn and in the matches that are really rough for you it just means you were chosen for someone else’s turn.
Personally, I think this is by design. I don’t think it’s botched. I think it’s on purpose. Think about it. You have a couple of rough matches or you have some really close ones where you either draw or barely win or you lose. Then, the next thing you know you have two or three matches, where you’re just absolutely tearing it up.Lots of problems with this.
1: It would be difficult to code while still ensuring matchmaking happens at a reasonable time frame. On the killer side it might be doable by adding something like 'if kill rate over 5 games < 25% set MMR - 200', but on the survivor side you'd need to ensure not only does that survivor get an MMR drop, but he retains survivors on his MMR level. So you'd need not just an if statement for the survivor on the losing streak, you'd need to be finding 3 other matching survivors with the same condition and/or some type of special tag where really good survivors got bumped into helped roles.
Matchmaking would take a lot, lot longer than it currently does if that were true.
2: Going in spurts is absolutely, completely normal. If you have a win rate of 50% you should be expecting streaks of good or bad results. Having a pure win/loss/win/loss over a period of time would be more unlikely.
3: It misses the snowball nature of DbD. Things like the early game are very important. If the killer gets lucky/wins some 50/50s early, the game will swing heavily in his direction, if the survivor gets lucky/wins some 50/50s, the game will swing in their direction. It doesn't mean the match wasn't even. Given the game design, blowouts are not that unusual.
4: There's lots of things MMR can't tell. It doesn't know if a survivor is sleepy, drunk, distracted, doing a tome, etc. It doesn't know if a killer normally plays non-sweaty but has suddenly switched to their sweatist builds because they are trying to do a win streak. It doesn't know if a player is particularly good or bad against a certain killer or good or bad on a certain map.
5: I've seen BHVR deny it. Can't remember their words choice or I'd post it.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3803820#Comment_3803820
Why do we use win:loss for survivor but win:draw:loss for killers?
A 50% winrate for killers means a 50% loss rate for them.
A draw only happens when neither involved team reaches their goal. DBD is not "have more kills than escapes, thus a 2/2is a draw", because survivors arent scored as team (you still lose when 3 others escape).
DBD is killer wins on 3+ kills and each escaped survivor wins....
A 50% winrate for killers means a 50% loss rate for them.If you want to define it that way, that's fine. But's that's not how the person I was replying to was defining it. If kill rate and win rate are the same thing, then a 50% kill rate would be an inherently balanced game.
A draw only happens when neither involved team reaches their goal.If you want to view a draw as impossible, again that's fine, but you need to also discard the terms 'win' and 'lose' as the end result of the match, because there is no singular opponent to win or lose the match against, you either went 4-0, 3-1, 2-2, 1-3, or 0-4 (excluding hatch). If you don't want to adjust your definitions that are based on symmetrical games to asymmetrical games you need to be consistent.
In my opinion, this seems overly pedantic. If a sports team played four games, won 2, and lost 2, how would we refer to them? They aren't winning, they aren't losing, we'd call them even or 500. I think if someone said 'so far the season has been a draw' that would make sense to pretty much everyone even though not a single game has been a draw.
@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3803820#Comment_3803820
why is it okay for survivors to lose 60% of the time while the killer should expect not only a win rate that exceeds 50%, but a win rate that exceeds both their loss rate and draw rate combined?
It’s because I don’t see the game as a competitive faceoff between the two sides. I see it as a “climb the mountain” kind of game for Survivors. How high can they get before making too many mistakes, can they work together?
In this situation I see the Killer as just the minotaur in the maze. A bouncer/skill check. The better the Killer the more strict they are on Survivor’s mistakes. Easier Killers allow more Survivor mistakes. So the Killer’s mmr is pretty much the match difficulty.
Maybe at one point it was reversed and the Survivors were the security guard testing the Killer’s performance where every game was the Killer’s to lose. I’m glad it is reversed. I think it's better for a horror atmosphere that every game belongs to the Survivors and the Killer is the golem that tests their teamwork.
It’s because I don’t see the game as a competitive faceoff between the two sides. I see it as a “climb the mountain” kind of game for Survivors. How high can they get before making too many mistakes, can they work together?I'm absolutely okay with this. As I mentioned, I don't really have a problem with the kill rate. Theming or a belief that survivors voiding the trial occur more frequently than the killer equivalent are absolutely valid reasons to believe in a higher kill rate.
It's just not a mathematical necessity for balance purposes for many reasons.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3803697#Comment_3803697
Because it isn't balance. It's asking for Devs to guarantee at least two Survivors always win. That's a draw for Killer but a win for two people. The game considers one Survivor escaping a win for that Survivor, but it also considers the number of escaped Survivors for Killer. And if Killer gets any less than a 3k, it's considered a loss for Killer by MMR, not a win. In a situation with a 50/50, that means the Killer almost always draws… and thus never wins.
Don't be fooled, whenever someone is saying killrates/winrates should be 50/50, they're actually JUST asking for free Survivor wins - and the Killer to never ever in any way win again regardless of skill, perks, addons, or time invested in play. That's not balance. Not one little bit. That's just asking for freebies.
So here's my question to everyone who says they want anything other than a 60/40 split and who TRULY BELIEVES the game would be fair if killrates or winrates for Killer were 50% when there is one KIller and FOUR OTHER SURVIVORS: Why do you all believe that Killers do not ever deserve to win while also believing that at least two Survivors should always and forever be handed wins without any effort or skill on their part at all?
It's asking for Devs toguaranteeat least two Survivorsalwayswin.This isn't true. A 50/50 kill rate would likely increase the number of 0ks over the current setup and increase survivor win rate, but there is no reason to presume that 2ks would somehow become common.
The average results over many matches (mean) is very different than what the average result of a match is (mode). Given the way the game is designed 2ks are, and likely always will be, the least common of the five possible game results.
And if Killer getsany less than a 3k, it's considered a loss for Killer by MMR, not a win.That's not true. If you're going strictly off of MMR, in a 2k you'd need to know which two survivors escaped and which two died. Depending their MMRs, you killer could either gain, lose, or stay even in the MMR.
Why do you all believe that Killers do not ever deserve to win whilealsobelieving that at least two Survivors should always and forever be handed wins without any effort or skill on their part at all?I'm fine with the current kill rate goal, I'd probably bump it down a few percent, but nothing major. However, this setup just isn't true. We can easily turn it around and ask (if we presume that we are using MMR as our defining win condition): why is it okay for survivors to lose 60% of the time while the killer should expect not only a win rate that exceeds 50%, but a win rate that exceeds both their loss rate and draw rate combined?
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@nam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3801527#Comment_3801527
OK, check the video if you can enter the link :
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1V2421Z737/?spm_id_from=333.999.0.0&vd_source=7813bb2841dfbdd1fa6ab1a84835e524
So I watched the video, though the framerate was not great.
Map is on the Game, strong survivor sided map unless the killer can slow it down until the pallets are cleared out.
The demo gets a down and a pain res before a single gen pops, not a bad start.
Then he chases the survivor the video is following into the strongest room, spends about 30 seconds there trying to mind game and only gets a single pallet, when the survivor gets out of the room the Demo drops chase.
Even though he dropped chase, Demo runs right by a gen with about 50% completion and doesn't kick it or otherwise defend it by doing something like putting a portal down (it doesn't look like he even used portals in this game and just ran from place to place). He'll run by this same gen about 30 seconds later when its at like 95% done and again not kick it. I have no idea what the Demo's strategy is at this point.
At 3:10 he drops chase again. Over the next minute he will get two injuries on two different survivors, before resuming chase with the survivor this video is following.
He then commits to that chase, doesn't really use his power, and takes a minute to down the survivor, losing two mind games in the process.
Overall: It's a tough match for demo against four seemingly skilled survivors, not sure if the talking is SWF or chatting with viewers. And while its hard to say for certain without watching other perspectives, the demo seems to make a few key errors. He engages in mind games, some which have no realistic chance of success, wasting time. He commits to chases at strange times, chasing survivors into strong rooms, and then letting them go when they are in weaker locations. He wastes time to hit two survivors, commits' to neither, and then commits to a healthy survivor far away from the gens.
Then there are the luck elements: the demo gets a tough map and loses out on the 50/50 guesses we see.
Basically, there's nothing in the video that is really shocking from a Western perspective of DbD. The survivors got on gens, they won the 50/50s, they had a map in their favor, and either the killer made mistakes or he had a plan that he was never really able to implement.
The only real surprising thing to me was how little the Demo made use of his powers.
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@Rutersxc said:
Can't they make a system that can tell what SBMM they're in and how many survivors are in a party then adjust the game accordingly to make the match even and fair as closely as possible?
They could easily make a system to nerf SWFs. They don't want to and have stated that multiple times.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3801914#Comment_3801914
Appreciate the comment! Some good expansions in there. How would you feel about base kit Kindred, but without the killer aura read portion? That was really my intention, as you can easily lose the game by having two, or zero, survivors go for the save.
An alternative to base kit Kindred might be to also add your most recent emote to the HUD. That, combined with adding new emotes, would let solo queue survivors better handle tasks that requires coordination.
Base Kit Kindred, no killer aura read: Like a lot a of ideas, I feel like it would need to be tested to be more certain, but here's my thoughts on how I think it would go:
Balance: It would be a huge gain to low and mid MMR, still somewhat helpful to soloq high MMR, and basically irrelevant to high MMR SWFs. So if you're only concern is balance, it seems like an obvious step.
—A interesting point on this, the people who should be pushing the most for base kit kindred are high MMR killer mains, because it would lower the overall kill rate in the lower MMR brackets, justifying more across the board killer buffs.
Theming: I have no idea how the overall community feels about this, but I suspect BHVR has data on it. If the game had always been this way, I doubt people would have a hard time imagining it otherwise. Right now, it would be pretty disconcerting to me to just have so much of the map where I know exactly where the other survivors are. I suspect I'd adjust overtime, but I think BHVR worries this would harm the theme too much.
Emotes: If both emotes and base kit kindred were on the table, I'd start with emotes and see how that worked out. If it didn't really fix things, then we revisit basekit kindred.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3801640#Comment_3801640
The last kill rate update had a 52% kill rate at high MMR against 4-man squads in games with no DC. They're not hitting 50/50 in any bracket and are not even trying, as they've stated they're shooting for 60/40 now.
They absolutely can buff solo queue and even survivor in general without making it a bad experience to play killer. There is kill rate headroom, for one, and bringing solo queue as close as possible to SWF is important for ensuring everyone has a good experience, even if it ultimately necessitates balance changes to survivor/killer overall.
Some examples of things that would help solo queue without doing much for SWF:
- More buff icons. Perks like Solidarity and Deliverance should show icons on the HUD so you know at a glance they're in play.
- Allow survivors to see their teammates' perks in the lobby and on the pause screen.
- More emotes beyond beckon and point to allow for more precise communication.
- Base kit Kindred.
I was going to jump in to back you up on the standard deviation discussion, but being that seems to be over I'll look at your suggestions.
I should say, I like soloq. I think I preferred the game before the HUD update even, I like the idea of not knowing what the other survivors are doing. However, I understand that isn't feasible with the need to balance between soloq and SWF.
More buff icons. Perks like Solidarity and Deliverance should show icons on the HUD so you know at a glance they're in play.
A gazillion times yes on this. This is one of those changes that really frustrates me because it doesn't seem to have any drawbacks (beyond balance) and could be implemented immediately. If the survivor has the ability to get off the hook (Deliverance, Wicked, AFC triggered), show their aura in a different color.
Allow survivors to see their teammates' perks in the lobby and on the pause screen.
BHVR's response to this is it might lead to more lobby dodging and toxicity. I'm not sure, I'd definitely at least like to test this to see if it does. But they could also just penalize lobby dodging.
More emotes beyond beckon and point to allow for more precise communication.
Yeah, I'd like signals like 'I'll heal you first', 'do this gen', 'killer nearby'.
Base kit Kindred.
I think this one goes too far. I'd add the ability for the survivor on the hook to give emotes that are more clear about whether the killer is nearby or not, instead of trying to guess what the survivor means by hand flailing.
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Well I can upload a match from the Spring Invitational where at the comp level a demo 4ked with 5 gens left (i.e. not a single gen was completed). Does that prove the Demo is some S+ tier killer? No, single matches are not indicative of anything about the game.
The killer should lose sometimes, sometimes even badly. That doesn't really prove anything. Dbd is a game where what happens early has a massive impact. If the killer has a bad start the survivors can whip through gens, and if the killer has a good start the survivors are in massive trouble, that's just how it works.
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BHVR has been pretty clear that their balance decisions take multiple factors into account. Skull Merchant is being nerfed into the ground for reasons different from just being too strong. It's possible that Pinhead and Plague could get nerfed in the future, but nothing like Skull Merchant, much more likely the usual 'some nerfs, some buffs' type of deal.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800707#Comment_3800707
No, this makes too much sense. It's more likely that people are coming home from their 9-5, spending time with their families, and then in the hour or two they have for gaming, they hop on DbD with the sole intent to quit matches in order to get a killer nerfed.
I love this post. I also really like the idea that people would have kept this up for over a year.
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I'm just not interested in it. I, generally, like the base game. I don't want a dark version of that game and I think with how the game mode has gone that feeling seems to be pretty common.
But limiting the killer pool would probably be the right move. 2v8 had the right idea there on slowly moving killers into the game.
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@MrMori said:
If the PTB goes through, Corrective Action will soon work on your own skillchecks. That means if you hit a few great skillchecks, you can "store" up to 5 greats for later.
If you bring Stake Out, Hyperfocus and Corrective Action, you can guarantee up to 9 Great skillchecks, realistically even more if you are able to hit a few greats as you go. It'll probably get nerfed, but I for sure wanna test it out.
Even if Corrective Action changes don't go through, if you get really good at Hyperfocus+Stake Out, you can absolutely shred gens, but you gotta not miss. Don't even need a toolbox if you can hit your greats.
Unless there's been an update, that's not what Corrective action will do. It still works on someone else on the gen.
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3801011#Comment_3801011
Negative ghost rider. Its called a monopoly, a legal monopolization at that. Imagine if stores decided to (Protected by law) discontinue item returns and you would actually now have to get in touch with the manufacturer to get your money back. That would be extremely bad for business, the difference here is we are dealing with the digital landscape of retail. So imagine 10,000 people buy SM right now and 2 days later BVHR killswitchs her until a rework happens whenever that is, tough luck people and people like you would support it because well "They knew what the deal was when they agreed with the EULA before playing the game, they don't have to play this game there are other games out there…" blah blah blah. I would venture to guess every game out there is protected with EULA and it's ethically not right.
1: We're not talking two days, we're talking a year and a half. Even if you bought her 2 days before the announcement, you still have weeks to play her.
2: We're not talking a killswitch, we're talking about nerfs.
3: Ethics - it's not ethically right to expect that your desires for the game override the overall health that everyone has also paid for.
@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3801005#Comment_3801005
Your right they don't but, if they had to legally send out a notification (Which wouldn't be that hard to do) asking yes or no if you approve of said changes and if not you can get refunded, BHVR and other companies would definitely be more on their toes when it comes to balance instead of this pandering to one-sides complaining and feeling like they are untouchable. I mean cmon bhvr balancing is the most hodgepodge thing I've ever seen.
This would lead to companies never bothering to make changes. It goes against the very concept of a live service game which people are paying money for. You are buying into a game with the understanding that the game will be undergoing constant changes, its silly that people could somehow get just the changes they like.
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Can survivors get a refund for Skull Merchant having been in the game?
You can still play Skull Merchant. Your chances of winning with her have gone down. Beyond the fact that as others have pointed out their complete right to make changes, they definitely never agreed that you had the right to a killer of a certain level of strength.
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@supersonic853 said:
"Just know, if your praising the philosophy of a character being destroyed with nerfs until a rework in over a year. Keep that same energy if it happens to one of your characters or perks. Keep the positive energy going"
Because I doubt this will be the last time they do this approach. They did it with Freddy. Now SM. What happens if another killer or perk is fundamentally problematic? Do we just need to obliterate it with 5 nerfs until a rework comes whenever BHVR sees fit? If that's the approach we want to take, so be it I guess. I feel that's why this is more than just SM overall. It's letting BHVR set a precedent on how they do characters or perks until a rework. Though they already set it with Freddy over 3 years ago. And noone fought then. We will get his rework eventually I'm sure. Twins rework did great right?
What happens if another killer or perk is fundamentally problematic? Do we just need to obliterate it with 5 nerfs until a rework comes whenever BHVR sees fit?If it's actually problematic? Yes. Ideally you would rework something, or change if its overtuned, but obliterating something is preferable to it ruining the game.
@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800404#Comment_3800404
Yeah like Freddy hasn't been in that same state for going on 4 years I think? Twins like 3? And they still messed up the rework. Onryo they reworked and even the mains said it was a mistake to the point they had to take her back. It's also saying something when the funnest freddy has been was when he had a bug where he could place blood pools through walls so he could counter loops better. And his Z block rework.
Twins like 3? And they still messed up the rework. Onryo they reworked and even the mains said it was a mistake to the point they had to take her back.Twins and Sadako were different issues.
Twins was being reworked because of complaints from both survivors and killers (though for survivors nothing on the level of skull merchant). They failed at the rework pretty spectacularly, but it had a different origin.
Sadako is a tough case. A playstyle emerged that caused problems and instead of an addon nerf they did a character overhaul. I'd disagree with the idea though that the mains disliked her versions. Some people really liked it, and some players hated it. People seem to have differing opinions on her various iterations.
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@For_The_People said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800417#Comment_3800417
Yes I totally understand and can accept someone playing competitively, or using their perks and builds to maximum effect - no objection in any of these cases from me. Similarly, something like body blocking, if I ever do it to protect a teammate who may potentially die, I have no qualms or quibbles if the killer then targets me - it’s a cost that’s calculated.
I just think that the ability to target based on any number of things that may or may not be obvious - for one side, is a little unhealthy.
When someone says, “I got teabagged by a toxic survivor repeatedly for no apparent reason, so I tunnelled someone out. I didn’t care that I’ll throw the match I just wanted them out” - it’s hard to argue against their motivations in a case such as this, if not the action itself,
But when someone says “I got tunnelled, slugged/camped/hit on hook by a toxic killer for no apparent reason” there isn’t the same level of ‘justuce’.
My thoughts are this creates an imbalance whereby toxic players (on both sides) exist but only one side has the tools to more often than not, exact their ‘revenge’ regardless of throwing the match or not. As you can imagine, in soloQ? Where matches are thrown on whims, it just leads to an excess of DCs instead
I just think that the ability to target based on any number of things that may or may not be obvious - for one side, is a little unhealthy.I don't disagree, but outside slugging people out for 4 minutes which has a relatively simple solution, I'm not sure how you could stop most of these types of behaviors. Most changes to try and address could easily run into other gameplay mechanics.
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Of the list: as a survivor I've definitely had number 4 occur to me where I managed a sabo save and this led to the killer slugging me and ignoring everyone else.
When playing killer: there's never been a circumstance where I've ever tried to punish a player. If I see a bunch of tool boxes or map offering, I might ramp up my game a little, but that's done because I think the competition will be more intense and I need to try and win.
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@Akeeno said:
the way they handled the S.M. is very scary. tons of survivors "protested" by killing on hook and artificially raising the kill rate to the moon, and bhvr simply gives in, and essentially deletes a character from the game, in order to please these players. that clearly shows what side they give priority to.
then this business practice could continue with other killers, just to please more survivors, im guessing because survivors are the majority.
but guess what. without killers, you dont have a game. instead of "saving" the game, with these changes, youre on a road to kill it instead. by driving killers away.
we wont feel the absence of skull merchant players since, its a small player base, but if survivors complain about a more popular killer, maybe chucky, blight, etc, it will set off a domino effect and turn off killer players, and BOOM.
Dying game, youve worked so hard to build up. killing the skull merchant is not the way. prioritize the rework instead of nerfing her.
tons of survivors "protested" by killing on hook and artificially raising the kill rate to the moonThis wasn't done because people protested. Hundreds of thousands of people play this game every day all over the world. Many players likely play one or two matches in their day.
There was no organized protest. What happened was that people, who have limited time and busy lives said: 'I play this game to have fun, but I would rather stare at a hook and go back into que then play against that killer'.
then this business practice could continue with other killers, just to please more survivors, im guessing because survivors are the majority.People don't have time, inclination, or the organization for this. They just want to play the game.
but guess what. without killers, you dont have a game.BHVR wants to please both survivors and killers, they've demonstrated that many times.
On a pure factual level, every killer main could quit the game tomorrow, survivor mains could alternate who plays killer for the BP bonus, and the game could continue.
If every survivor main quit, the game would die instantly.
That's just numbers. They need 80% of their player base to play survivor.
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@GroßusSchmiedus said:
I'm saying at someone who harbors no ill intent towards the Skully mains, on the contrary, however before leaving her in a very sad state for what will probably be years (they say 2025 but if you have any faith in that please send me pictures of the front and back of your credit card, i will totally not misuse it, pinky promise). Just look at Freddy, Trickster, Sadako and Twins if you want evidence.
Should she just get deactivated and give players a the Shards/Auric and BP spend on her in the meantime?
They aren't refunding a character that has been out for a year and a half. That's a playtime that far exceeds a lot of video games.
A total killswitch is also not going to happen. Some people will still play her and that means BHVR can continue to gather data on her games for the rework.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798667#Comment_3798667
All of those just got nerfed slightly but never became useless. This SM Nerf isn't just a slight nerf, it's making a killer F-tier just bc of cry babies. Guess what ppl will still kill themselves against her, this Nerf doesnt do anything to change that. All it doing is lowering her pick rate it. I get its a live service game but that is not an excuse to make a character ppl paid money for completely useless. How would you feel if it was a character you loved? What if they made one of your fav characters who spent bunch of money on a F-tier character? For once leave your bias behind and put yourself in other shoes. Im not even a SM fan but I think this is a really ######### thing to do and devs should be called out on it.
How would you feel if it was a character you loved? What if they made one of your fav characters who spent bunch of money on a F-tier characterI wouldn't be happy, but I also understand that's the game and just how the world works.
When it first released, I didn't like DbD. I played it in 2019 and still disliked it. I tried it again in 2021 and loved it after the changes they made. At some point they might change the game enough that I won't like it again.
Sometimes changes are good, sometimes they are bad, but in this case there is an extremely clear and necessary reason for the change. Skull Merchant has been out for a year and a half. This isn't some rug pull where they switched the character a week after she came out.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798308#Comment_3798308
That is one of the worst analogies I have ever heard XD What happening to SM is more like if you order an item off the menu and then the restaurant decides halfway through your meal to remove the item from the menu and then comes to your table and taking your meal away even tho you already paid for it. Saying "Sorry everyone hates the item so you can't have it anymore…" Ppl paid for SM and making her completely useless even for a short term is bad game design and bad business.
Mettle of Man, Pig, Dead Hard, MFT, Freddy, self-care, Sadako a couple of times, Decisive Strike, Billy for years, Iron Will…
I could go on. Survivors also paid money for the game. It's a live service game. Things get changed. Some things get obliterated. It's not new and we're in year 9 of the game.
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@CleanseThis said:
The problem from a general perspective is the inconsistency of a balancing approach that we all can see and look at and so "Oh ok, I get why this needed a bit of tuning". Pig is a great example, buffed (nerfed) her ambush but took away box auras. They seem to have noticed based on whatever info that her ambush wasn't getting used a lot or that it felt weak or that when it was used didn't land any hits so it needed a buff but why simultaneously did they feel a counter was needed to such a weak "buff" that box aura should no longer be a "thing" and what data did they look at to come to this conclusion. It would be nice to know these things.
They seem to have noticed based on whatever info that her ambush wasn't getting used a lot or that it felt weak or that when it was used didn't land any hits so it needed a buffI think you are presuming there is some math equation or numbers that they use to determine things like this. I don't think balance was a huge issue (though it would still be one). More likely they saw people weren't using the power, if a power isn't being used that means the killer and survivors probably aren't really enjoying the killer and the uniqueness it is meant to bring, so buff ambush to get more people to use it.
The headtraps were just a different change. They probably had some data that people didn't find the headtraps at their timer an enjoyable mechanic so they wanted to change it. On the PTB they originally tried a mass increase to the timers, but after they got a lot of push back on that they went to the change of making the aura boxes invisible.
BHVR isn't that worried about balance, making them unlike a lot of multiplayer games. They have a target number, but don't seem that concerned if they miss it by 5 points in either direction. I think the changes are much more geared toward 'fun' then 'this killer needs to be slightly stronger to be in line with the others'.
So to go back to my answers, Pig was likely a combination of 1, 4, and 5.
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@CleanseThis said:
Whats the point of nerfing her, having a PTB with her being apart of it, make changes once the PTB is over to just further down the road do a complete rework anyways? is it to shut people up about her? mine aswell leave her be until then unless BHVR doesn't really plan on doing anything with her for a long long good while… Seems pointless.
I can think of a few reasons, but probably the biggest: Right now their data on Skully is likely a mess with how frequently people give up against her. Is the problem her mechanics, or are the mechanics too strong? If you weaken the mechanics and survivors accept playing against her, okay, you just need to find the balance point between where she is now and the new version. If players still absolutely hate her, well then you need a massive rework.
It'll likely be a mix of the above two, but you need the data to tell you how much of a mix.
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Game design is extremely complicated, so there are likely multiple factors at play.
1: It's a live service game, so shaking up things every so often is just normal.
2: Someone just gets an idea. I imagine they have round tables and brainstorming sessions. If someone has a good idea, it probably pops onto a roadmap.
3: Do they know a way to improve it? Just because you know something is causing problems, doesn't mean you know a way to fix it without causing more problems (I wouldn't be surprised if this is what happened with Twins).
4: Player satisfaction. Are people having fun with the game. I doubt they go off the forums or reddit much, more in terms of what people actually do in the game.
5: Kill rates and game results. I suspect this is last unless it gets way out of whack.
Number 4 is probably the highest priority, but also the most complicated. What some people like, others dislike, while most people's views on how to change the game don't take into account all of the factors that need to be considered.
Number 2 probably has a lot more weight than people think.
I suspect there are way more than just the five I listed, and those five can also be broken into more specific detail. People really underestimate these types of decisions and tend to think there is one key factor that determines what gets changed.
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@GeneralSkien said:
There is alot of outrage surrounding this update, 90% of it being around the gutting of skull merchant (Which I think are awful changes) but what I do want to talk about is, how will the Devs respond? and also is this the most outrage that has come from an update? (why was bloodrush nerfed, what)
Not the most outrage and not really surprising. The larger the update, the more outrage, because the more changes BHVR makes the more likely there will be something a player is upset about.
Basekit unbreakable I remember being far more contentious.
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@Nazzzak said:
If no one plays, then we probably won't get it back again… you might be onto something here.
In all seriousness, I'm reserving judgement until I play it. Didn't enjoy the first iteration at all.
If no one plays, then we probably won't get it back again… you might be onto something here.I think this is pretty accurate. If people don't play the mod after the second go around, when some of their other mods saw extremely positive reception, it would be very strange to waste developer time on it.
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@Rigbeta said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797803#Comment_3797803
That's great, so just because you find a playstyle boring, that means the people who enjoy them just don't matter? I love playing as her and against her, but I hate my teammates for throwing a tantrum. I still do my best regardless because literally EVERYONE has characters they hate going against and need to learn how to deal with. I think Chucky is boring because he has anti-loop AND anti-transitional powers, but I still suck it up and utilize what I know to counter him. But then I get thrown into a game where people decide "This is boring" and give up, instead of taking a challenge head on and actually trying to learn HOW to counter a situation.
That's great, so just because you find a playstyle boring, that means the people who enjoy them just don't matter?That's just life. Companies adapt to the desires of the largest numbers of their customers. I'm sure we've all had an experience were a restaurant or something similar dropped an item we really liked because no one else was buying it.
Some people like Skull Merchant. Lots of people hate her. BHVR has to deal with the reality of how their customers behave, not how they might want them to behave in an ideal world.
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@ChaosWam said:
Sweats in Sadako main
Jokes aside, it's a worrying trend. If enough people realize that throwing on hook means an eventual nerf, they'll do it, even if it's a small part of the community.
Heck, I've had people do the exact thing people do against SM (pointing at hooks, giving up, throwing on first hook) when playing as Hag, who I barely play.Jokes aside, it's a worrying trend. If enough people realize that throwing on hook means an eventual nerf, they'll do it, even if it's a small part of the community.You don't really have another choice as a video game developer. If your customers just outright refuse to engage with content you have to listen to that.
It would have to be a significant part of the community to actually yield this though and given the size of DbD's community not realistic to fake.
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@Moonras2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796791#Comment_3796791
Oh yes, I apologize for my wording. When I said it doesn't seem to take the draws into account, I meant that as if it was considering it as a win. As far as the escape rate I know that escapes can happen all the way up to a 3k. For the survivor/s, that escaped, it may be considered a win to them. If 2 or more lost, I would consider it a loss as a whole or cancelled out as a draw. Otherwise it seems like the survivors may be closer in terms of win rate, but the loss rate would also be higher.
Ive just never had much experience with nightlight. I see some people say it's pretty accurate with official stats. I would almost assume it may be more accurate in some ways. People taking the time to track their stats are probably not the ones dcing or throwing games.
When I said it doesn't seem to take the draws into account, I meant that as if it was considering it as a win. As far as the escape rate I know that escapes can happen all the way up to a 3k. For the survivor/s, that escaped, it may be considered a win to them.It's just a data set. it's not meant be more or less than that, the survivor data is literally just 'how frequently does this survivor escape'. If you want overall win/loss perceptions, that's what the killer data is for.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796863#Comment_3796863
Borrowed Time and haste from unhook basekit, anti camp guarenteed self unhook, PTB basekit Unbreakable test.
You can argue that these haven’t solved the problem for you but you can’t say they don’t jump to try and deal with these things that have been complained about.
PTB basekit Unbreakable test.You can argue that these haven’t solved the problem for you but you can’t say they don’t jump to try and deal with these things that have been complained about.I guess if survivors aren't making use of that PTB unbreakable, that's on them.
As for jumping to do what survivors ask for? Infinites, BNP auto finishing a gen, being able to destroy all the hooks, increasing the time to do gens, and bloodlust are all things that got taken care of for the killer way before BHVR looked at what you mentioned.
I get why those things were taken care of, but when it comes to the survivor concerns, BHVR usually just throws a perk towards survivors with incredible limitations. It's a pretty recent change in the gamespan's life that they've done some basekit things, and even those have been incredibly cautious.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794662#Comment_3794662
Would need to see a source here because that makes absolutely no sense. Let's say a killer is just….really bad at the game. They get a 25% kill rate EVERY match (ie a single kill). That absolutely does not mean the killer wins 1 out of 4 matches on average. With him getting only 1 kill every match (not talking on average, in my example, I mean literally 1 kill every match), then he would never win. Kill rates absolutely are not win rates.
Edit - just looked up his post. They said that "winning" is subjective - some people see pips as a win even if they didn't kill anyone, some see a 4k is minimum for a win, and so on. They also said they don't really define wins due to it being so subjective, and suggested just considering that kill rates are = to win rates just to make it easier to understand. The problem with this logic is that it's claiming that getting a single kill gets "win" credit when it comes to coming up with a win rate. In my example above, someone only ever getting 1K every match would have a 25% win rate - which is just silly to consider. I don't think any DBD player actually considers a 1K as a killer win, but if you go with kill rate = win rate, a 1K is a "win", and you can win up to 4 times in a single match. I don't think anyone would seriously accept this as a reliable balance method for numbers.
With him getting only 1 kill every match (not talking on average, in my example, I mean literally 1 kill every match), then he would never win. Kill rates absolutely are not win rates.The thing about this example, is that the killer is out performing a hypothetical killer who get 0 kills every match. The community broadly treats 0k/1k and 3k/4k as a group, but the game doesn't, it has degrees of performance.
From the game's perspective, it doesn't matter if over 4 games you 4k once and 0k 3 times, or if you 1k 4 times, it treats it the same. If a player prefers one of the outcomes over the other, that's totally their call. As BHVR said, they don't really have a stance on what is considered a win.
I don't think any DBD player actually considers a 1K as a killer win, but if you go with kill rate = win rate, a 1K is a "win", and you can win up to 4 times in a single match. I don't think anyone would seriously accept this as a reliable balance method for numbers.You can use the killrate as a balance metric because no player actually ever hits the hypothetical of the same result any time. If a player was underperforming as killer and say had a 40% kill rate, they'd still have a pretty good idea of how many 4ks, 3ks, etc. that usually results in.
It's also a necessity with how they run the MMR system. If they switched survivors to a full team based rating system you could have a different measure, but I don't think that will ever happen.
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@Moonras2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796123#Comment_3796123
Ahh yes ty. I found that the survivors and killer page both have an overall section it's just placed in between the individual characters of both sides. I guess even then it's open for interpretation.
If I look at just the killrates, it shows killers winning at 51.7 percent, Survivors winning at 35.27 percent, and draws at 13.01 percent. I think I'm figuring that correctly.
If I look at just survivor escape rates its 42.17 percent. Though that doesn't seem to take draws into consideration.
This is of course changing but at the time I saw the numbers
If I look at just the killrates, it shows killers winning at 51.7 percent, Survivors winning at 35.27 percent, and draws at 13.01 percent. I think I'm figuring that correctly.If I look at just survivor escape rates its 42.17 percent. Though that doesn't seem to take draws into consideration.The escape rate is just the escape rate. The killer data and the survivor data is basically the same.
To walk through the numbers to demonstrate this:
First start with the percentages: 17.92% 0k, 17.41% 1k, 13.06 2k, 18.57% 3k, 33.04% 4k.
If we then take those percents against a 1000 games that would be (slight rounding involved): 179 0k, 174 1k, 130 2k, 186 3k, 330 4k
If we wrote that into how many survivors escaped per result: 716, 522, 260, 186, 0
So a possible of 1684 survivors escaped out of 4,000 survivors who played. Or put into a percentage: 42.1%
That's a long way of saying the survivor escape rate counts the draws and the killer wins when they are a 3k.
@Moonras2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796438#Comment_3796438
I brought up nightlight because you brought it up. I don't personally use it for anything. I prefer the official stats but even those can be impacted by many things. Which is again why I say it seems open to interpretation. I'm not even worried about the MMR here.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796001#Comment_3796001
I was just making the point that just because killers are at 50-60 doesn't mean survivors aren't way lower. At that point what is fair and what isnt?
I don't personally use it for anything. I prefer the official stats but even those can be impacted by many things.I used to not put much weight into the Nightlight stats, but every time BHVR releases data, the numbers are really close with only some rare exceptions that have pretty clear reasons. This is why I think Nightlight is a great source for looking at what the division of games is (winrate). Because if BHVR says a certain killer has a killrate of 60%, and Nightlight has the same killer at 60%, the chance that they reached the same outcome of a percentage, but did so via a different break down of the game results, I find to be extremely unlikely.
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@Moonras2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796001#Comment_3796001
Im not sure how to see the win rate on nightlight, I don't use it much, but does it also show survivor win rate? As well as draws? Killers being 50-60 could mean many things but if survivors are way lower then that would explain things differently.
On Nightlight, go to killers, and it will display 0k, 1k, 2k, 3k, 4k. They color the different numbers and make the dividing lines clear. On the right hand side you can also sort the chart, their default is pick rate, if you're comparing kill rates you'll want to adjust to that setting.
So if you wanted winrate you'd have to a little bit of math by adding the 3k and 4k numbers together.
They also have survivor data, but that's escape rates of different survivors, the kill rate from the killers is the most helpful for end game outcomes.
@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795993#Comment_3795993
Thanks for bothering to dig this up!
It seems clear form this then, that to keep the winrate equal, Kill rate needs to be higher doesn't it? Myabe I am tripping, but it seems like people mistake "60% Kill rate" as "60% winrate". Nightlight says Killers average somewhere between 50-60% winrate, so maybe a bit higher than expected but certainly within range.
So why are people complaining that Killer is too easy now again? it seems like the math here is mathing. And it certainly seems for an assym, this would be the balanced ratio, right? Why should someone who is less good at the game than they seem win easily at lower levels, and someone who gets boosted win easily at higher levels? If you don't like your results in game just lose/win more respectively?
Myabe I am tripping, but it seems like people mistake "60% Kill rate" as "60% winrate".The more relevant part of the BHVR post is that they don't have a firm win rate. However, if you throw out everything else, like MMR does, kill rate and win rate are identical. So going just off that, killers win ~60% of the time, survivors ~40% (thrown off a little bit hatch)
It seems clear form this then, that to keep the winrate equal, Kill rate needs to be higher doesn't it?No, though the reason depends a bit on how you define the win. A 60% killrate can lead to many possibilities for how it comes about.
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1: Not sure about the timing (10 seconds of aura reading is a long time) or the number of window vaults, and how long the cool down would be is important, but yeah as an idea, fine.
2: No.
3: Kind of going back and forth on this one from it being useless to too strong. On a positive, it could encourage riskier play with a survivor remaining injured to finish a gen. In the middle, it could lead to 3 survivors rushing a gen right off the start, which usually helps the killer, but it doesn't feel good. I could see a SWF getting a gen right to 1 tap away mark so that a survivor in chase can tap it to be healed, but that would be more of a meme/bully thing than a balance concern.
Potential similar idea, instead of it being finished the gen, perk activates after a survivor is injured. If the survivor works on a gen for 30 seconds, the survivor is healed, and the perk deactivates. The pairing here with Resilience is probably too strong though.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795593#Comment_3795593
Also, since we're limiting to "base gameplay" you can add:
Increase to base gen speeds, most recently +10 in 6.1.0
Anti gen tap mechanic
Hatch rework
But since the person you're responding to can just claim anything is "qol" you won't get a good faith discussion about this. It'll just be moving the goalpost.
Yeah, I thought about some of those (especially the gen one which is roughly equivalent to nerfing gen speed to 0.9 charges a second), but I tried to limit it to the absolute, most basic 'basic' mechanics because the structure definitely seems like it is trying to win the argument by defining out all possible counter points.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794396#Comment_3794396
Name one. Name one that can't be better interpreted as a qol change or killer buff.
Exhaustion mechanic.
Medium vault speed.
Distance needed for a fast vault.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795041#Comment_3795041
There is nothing else taken into account for role bonus. Its just whats in most need. Has nothing to do with MMR
Wait, did they change something? Because they've said MMR is taken into account.
@Peanits said:
Others have beat me to it, but your bonus is unique to you and depends on what the matchmaker needs most.
To give an example, say you're a high ranked Survivor & Killer in North America. If there's more high ranked Killers playing in your area, the game will give you a Survivor bonus to encourage you to help balance it out. At the same time, someone elsewhere in the world or at a different skill level may have a Killer bonus because Killers of their skill level in their region are more in demand.
It can vary throughout the day and per region, but it's not too uncommon to see a bonus for Survivors. The game needs four Survivors per Killer to make matches, so there tends to be an excess of Killers waiting for a match in most regions.
@Peanits said:
It's normal for those bonuses to change over time, even throughout the day. Since it's heavily based on your region, it's not uncommon for there to be fewer survivors playing in off-peak times and instead waiting to group up with their friends after everyone gets home from work. This (among loads of different factors) can cause the incentives to shift at different times of the day. If there's fewer survivors during the day, they'll likely have an incentive. Meanwhile if a bunch of people group up and play survivor with their friends at night, the could leave killer with an incentive.
That's just one of many things that could be affecting it, of course. There's loads of different factors which could cause the incentives to change.