Now That 2v8 Is Over...

SuspiciousBrownie

The whole comeback mechanic is really confusing to me honestly. During the free to play weekend the comeback mechanic helps the new survivors out a lot and keeps games from being a total blowout and keeping morale high for the newer players which is nice.

But when free to play weekend is over and only the good players are left it just makes the games way to close and competitive. I try to play it just for fun and like to spread out hooks but it feels so strange downing survivors so fast just for it to not matter. I went on about 14 chases each lasting 30 seconds max (because I have way too much time on Huntress), cross map downing several people for my teammate at the same time and since we spread the hooks out, we lost very badly a 7 person out. I'm not sure why killers are punished so heavily for spreading hooks in this mode. It really is a game losing move to spread hook states.

Compared to matches where I actively ignore a few survivors and got rid of a few of them early on and can actually have a chill game where a few escape through hatch or maybe gate. I don't need nor do I want an 8k every game, in fact it is very boring trying to kill all 8 if I have to slug for it. I'll even get to end game scenarios where I down 3-4 survivors at once and could slug and kill all of them, but I'll still hook them even though I know it guarantees their escape since the cages will almost always go straight to gates just because I know survivors find it boring too.

It would be cool if we could make it to where spreading hooks was rewarded instead of punished, it's so strange to me why we continue to punish killers for spreading out hook states in this game. Maybe you could give them some special ability that comes from unique hooks or something.

People complain on here a lot about slugging and tunneling in this mode but honestly, I don't blame killers. They want to win too. I can count on 2 hands how many survivor matches I've lost. You could implement the comeback mechanic for the free to play weekend and remove it for the rest of the time. It makes what's supposed to be a chill game mode annoyingly competitive. Its honestly a chill mode for survivors and that's it. Or maybe reduce the hook state gen speed boost to 1.5% instead of 2.5% idk.

Tl;Dr: Stop punishing killers for spreading hook states and encouraging them to tunnel plz and thx.

Autharia

@SuspiciousBrownie said:

The whole comeback mechanic is really confusing to me honestly. During the free to play weekend the comeback mechanic helps the new survivors out a lot and keeps games from being a total blowout and keeping morale high for the newer players which is nice.

But when free to play weekend is over and only the good players are left it just makes the games way to close and competitive. I try to play it just for fun and like to spread out hooks but it feels so strange downing survivors so fast just for it to not matter. I went on about 14 chases each lasting 30 seconds max (because I have way too much time on Huntress), cross map downing several people for my teammate at the same time and since we spread the hooks out, we lost very badly a 7 person out. I'm not sure why killers are punished so heavily for spreading hooks in this mode. It really is a game losing move to spread hook states.

Compared to matches where I actively ignore a few survivors and got rid of a few of them early on and can actually have a chill game where a few escape through hatch or maybe gate. I don't need nor do I want an 8k every game, in fact it is very boring trying to kill all 8 if I have to slug for it. I'll even get to end game scenarios where I down 3-4 survivors at once and could slug and kill all of them, but I'll still hook them even though I know it guarantees their escape since the cages will almost always go straight to gates just because I know survivors find it boring too.

It would be cool if we could make it to where spreading hooks was rewarded instead of punished, it's so strange to me why we continue to punish killers for spreading out hook states in this game. Maybe you could give them some special ability that comes from unique hooks or something.

People complain on here a lot about slugging and tunneling in this mode but honestly, I don't blame killers. They want to win too. I can count on 2 hands how many survivor matches I've lost. You could implement the comeback mechanic for the free to play weekend and remove it for the rest of the time. It makes what's supposed to be a chill game mode annoyingly competitive. Its honestly a chill mode for survivors and that's it. Or maybe reduce the hook state gen speed boost to 1.5% instead of 2.5% idk.

Tl;Dr: Stop punishing killers for spreading hook states and encouraging them to tunnel plz and thx.

You do realize the gen thing worked both ways. Every gen done slowed speed by 5% so last is always is at - speed unless every player is on death hook if you perfectly spread hooks. Also Gen guarding was buffed even more in the mode with stronger regression. Maybe you should have played off your team mate some more if chases lasted 30 seconds in the mode as huntress.

crogers271

@SuspiciousBrownie said:

The whole comeback mechanic is really confusing to me honestly. During the free to play weekend the comeback mechanic helps the new survivors out a lot and keeps games from being a total blowout and keeping morale high for the newer players which is nice.

But when free to play weekend is over and only the good players are left it just makes the games way to close and competitive. I try to play it just for fun and like to spread out hooks but it feels so strange downing survivors so fast just for it to not matter. I went on about 14 chases each lasting 30 seconds max (because I have way too much time on Huntress), cross map downing several people for my teammate at the same time and since we spread the hooks out, we lost very badly a 7 person out. I'm not sure why killers are punished so heavily for spreading hooks in this mode. It really is a game losing move to spread hook states.

Compared to matches where I actively ignore a few survivors and got rid of a few of them early on and can actually have a chill game where a few escape through hatch or maybe gate. I don't need nor do I want an 8k every game, in fact it is very boring trying to kill all 8 if I have to slug for it. I'll even get to end game scenarios where I down 3-4 survivors at once and could slug and kill all of them, but I'll still hook them even though I know it guarantees their escape since the cages will almost always go straight to gates just because I know survivors find it boring too.

It would be cool if we could make it to where spreading hooks was rewarded instead of punished, it's so strange to me why we continue to punish killers for spreading out hook states in this game. Maybe you could give them some special ability that comes from unique hooks or something.

People complain on here a lot about slugging and tunneling in this mode but honestly, I don't blame killers. They want to win too. I can count on 2 hands how many survivor matches I've lost. You could implement the comeback mechanic for the free to play weekend and remove it for the rest of the time. It makes what's supposed to be a chill game mode annoyingly competitive. Its honestly a chill mode for survivors and that's it. Or maybe reduce the hook state gen speed boost to 1.5% instead of 2.5% idk.

Tl;Dr: Stop punishing killers for spreading hook states and encouraging them to tunnel plz and thx.

So I think there is a big difference between 'comeback mechanics are a bad idea' and 'the current comeback mechanic is flawed'.

I certainly think there are problems with the current comeback mechanic, mainly, as you mentioned, that tunneling is still the absolute best strategy (a little harder in this mode, but far from impossible). You can get strange situations in the game where the killers have hooked a ton of survivors, but the survivors are all spread out doing gens getting really fast progress, and then lots of gens pop around the same time so the 5% gen done penalty doesn't really have an impact.

I think it's a relatively easy fix. Just stagger the comeback mechanic on the survivor side. 1/3/5% on the hooks (or whatever percentage BHVR thinks would work).

Personally, I think the comeback mechanic is a great idea. It lessens the value of the early game and prevents blowouts, but we're on version 2 of the 2v8 vs all of the time the 1v4 mode has had.

UndeddJester

The comeback mechanic was way too simple to be considered a proper comeback mechanic.

I made a thread discussing it here... and how a comeback mechanic SHOULD work...

@UndeddJester said:

As we all know, 2v8 has a comeback mechanic built into it, where: -

• Whenever a generator is completed, all survivors suffer a 5% repair speed penalty.
• Whenever a survivor is hooked, all survivors gain a 2.5% repair speed bonus.

Thinking about this system, I believe it is far too simple, but as I thought more about it, I went down a bit of a rabbit hole trying to decide what exactly a comeback mechanic means for a game like DBD.

What is a comeback mechanic?

Just so we define our terms, a comeback mechanic is a mechanic where one side is given bonuses in some form in the event that one side starts performing too well and begins to snowball/dominate the game. They provide a means of giving players a chance to "get back into" the game, and at its simplest provides a means of keeping players invested in playing.

It is highly contextual to the games they are in, and the effects are unique for each game. They can be controversial (especially if implemented poorly) since at their core they effectively provide rewards for losing the game. However at the same time, depending on the game, they also provide their own elements of tactics and balance that can smooth out a lot of pain points, particularly regarding combating metas and rush down strategies.

Typically, well implemented comeback mechanics add a different layer of strategy, where a player winning early is still compounding their advantage, but is also incurring a risk along with it, where if they then get outplayed or make a catastrophic mistake despite their advantage, their opponent is greatly rewarded and effectively levels the playing field again.

To explore a couple of genres for games that have comeback mechanics:

MOBAs (team vs. team)

A game like League of Legends for example has multiple comeback mechanics, such as killing spare bounties and objectives bounties.

TLDR - This works in this games context because the focus of LoL is more the objectives and your role in the team, more than your specific ability to win your lane (due to the huge roster). If you're getting ahead, you should in turn be pressing your advantage to help push your team ahead, but that itself comes with the risk you yourself are also a target as well as said objectives, so once you're ahead, you can't just throw yourself at the enemey team and kill as many as you can for free while your team takes the map objectives.

Spoiler Spoiler Warning ▲▼

For those who are unfamiliar who want a longer explanation, LoL is all about destroying the enemies base. To do this you farm/kill creeps, monsters and other players to gain experience for levelling up and gold to buy items. The faster you level up and buy items, the stronger you become relative to your opponents.

When a player gets a killing spree, they also get a bounty that increases the longer the killing spree goes. If an opposing player kills the player with a killing spree, they did so at a great disadvantage and can effectively score between roughly 1.3x to 3.3x the gold they would normally get for a kill. A player getting killed repeatedly will also get a losing spree, which will also reduce that players value similary down to 0.33x the normal value.

The idea is that if you've managed to win your lane and get substantially ahead, you are in an advantageous position, and should be pressing that advantage to secure objectives and help your teammates win their lanes to put your team ahead... but if you fail to make use of that advantage, or you get outplayed, your opponents can get their own player fed.

This makes sense in League because the roster is so large with so many hard counters, that a player snowballing a lane is normal, so the comeback mechanic smoothes out the natural snowball that occurs when a player starts to lose, and still forces League goal as 5vs5 teamwork based game.

Fighting Games (1vs.1)

Games like Street Fughter 4 or Marvel vs. Capcom 3 have comeback mechanics in the form of Ultras (a single high damage move) or X factor (a 1 time damage, speed and recovery boost that last longer the fewer characters you have alive).

TLDR - These mechanics work because the pace of these games can quickly result in a heavy deficit for one player, and it's not uncommon to see the fight grind to a halt while a player protects their life lead. These comeback mechanics ensure that both players are still fighting to the end, and actively trying to knock each other out, and the comebacks themselves still require the losing player to outplayed their opponent to use them, they are not "free win" buttons.

Spoiler Spoiler Warning ▲▼

For a more full explanation: A game like Street Fighter 4 has comeback mechanics in the form of Ultras, which are a super powerful move that builds up as you take damage with enough damage to totally swing a round.

Marvel vs. Capcom 3 has X factor, which is a 1 time per round boost to damage, speed and recovery that lasts longer based on how many of your fighters are still alive when you trigger it. With all 3 characters alive, it last only a few seconds, maybe allowing a single high damage combo to quickly try and knock out a character, with only 1, it is has a much longer duration, that can turn your lone charactervwothoit assists into a bulldozer that chews through your opponents team.

The comeback mechanic makes sense here, because the pace of these games means a few unfortunate 50/50 exchanges can result in the better player falling significant behind and then getting "lamed out" using keep away and run tactics, non-stop blocking, and running out the clock (having more health when the timer expires is a win).

While people can still do this in these games, the comeback mechanic is a new threat to take into consider. It still requires the losing player to win an exchange (which is harder to do because while on low HP a mistake easily results in a round loss, especially on a time limit), but playing overly cautious and falling for a grab or a mix up can lead into being punished extremely hard and even the game back out (or lose it outright)... this keeps both players engaged the whole fight, and taking opportunities when presented to try and close out the round.

It's also worth noting though in both cases the formerly winning player will now also get their ultra/factor boost as well, but now like before they still have to win the exchange to use them.

So what does a comeback mechanic mean for an asym?

The traits that make up a good comeback mechanic are: -

• It only comes into play when one side is being heavily dominated, and otherwise has a minimal or non-existent effect.
• It doesn't remove the winning sides advantage (which effectively punishes them for winning), it instead creates a "risk" that the winning player has to be wary of.
• It still requires skillful play from the losing team to exploit that incurred risk, rewarding them for good play and not giving up.

With this in mind, while I'm not full.blown negative Nancy on the 2vs8 catchup mechanic, I believe it does fail on all 3 of these points.

That said, it seems to me that coming up with a fair and balanced method of employing a comeback mechanic in DBD is quite hard.... I don't really want to make a suggestion, because this thread is more about what the comeback mechanic should achieve more than making an actual suggestion but to give an idea off the top of my head:

Spoiler Spoiler Warning ▲▼

The comeback mechanic should track the amount of meaningful Generator Progress made by survivors and, I dunno a Pressure system of some kind for killers. The difference between these 2 defines whether the comeback mechanisms for either side trigger.

I'm gonna gut feel numbers without doing much maths or really balancing it, but hopefully you get the idea.

Generator Progress is something like a % of the total gen progress done, maybe weight gen each gen at 1, and the progress on each generator so has a value multiplier at boundaries for 0%, 25%, 50%, 75% and 100%, valued at 0x, 1x , 2x , 3x, 5x respectively.

Killer pressure is more complex, Killer pressure has points weighted based on survivor states. Something like 0.5 points for injured survivors, 1 point for currently hooked survivors, 1 points for downed survivors scaling to 2 over the course of a minute, 1.5 point for survivors on 1 hook stage, 4 points for each survivor on 2 hook stages, 7 for each dead survivor.

If I eyeball it, say the comeback mechanic would trigger when say one side is 15 points ahead of the other.

Off top of my head, for survivors getting the comeback mechanic results in getting a Distortion token passively every 120/60/30s based on their 0, 1, 2 hook stages, and a Bardic Inspiration 1/2/3% bonus on skillchecks based on comeback scaling, with an addtional 10% chance of getting skillchecks. This rewards playing smart and staying hidden, but also encourages jumping on generators and risking being found.

For killer getting a comeback mechanic results in getting a 10/20/30% faster pick up speed and passive movement haste increase out of chase of 10/15/20% for 30s after hooking a survivor based on the comeback scaling. They also gain a 10/20/30% Pop Goes The Weasel with a 10/20/30% faster gen kick speed after hooking a survivor, based on 2/1/0 hook stages on that survivor. This rewards identifying the gens needing to be protected (and helps m1 killers), not being hindered in kicking them (tempered by the anti- gen mechanic), and rewarded with a fast turnover after committing and downing survivors (especially not yet hooked survivors) and getting back into the fray.

That's obviously a rough version I came up with in about 30 minutes, but you get the kinda things I'm angling at.

Survivors comeback should involve being rewarded for playing smart, keeping their vulnerable teammates hidden and drawing killer attention.

Killers comeback should involve being rewarded for holding your important assets and converting chases successfully.

The current system doesn't encourage these things. I'm not really putting my system as a concrete suggestion (I eyeballed everything), but I hope it might inspire others to come up with their own systems!

Sadly it got drowned in the forums, but the highlight was that the 2vs8 comeback fails on 3 points.

The traits that make up a good comeback mechanic are: -

• It only comes into play when one side is being heavily dominated, and otherwise has a minimal or non-existent effect.
• It doesn't remove the winning sides advantage (which effectively punishes them for winning), it instead creates a "risk" that the winning player has to be wary of.
• It still requires skillful play from the losing team to exploit that incurred risk, rewarding them for good play and not giving up.

And 2v8s iteration doesn't really achieve any of them.

SuspiciousBrownie

@Autharia said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/433531/now-that-2v8-is-over

You do realize the gen thing worked both ways. Every gen done slowed speed by 5% so last is always is at - speed unless every player is on death hook if you perfectly spread hooks. Also Gen guarding was buffed even more in the mode with stronger regression. Maybe you should have played off your team mate some more if chases lasted 30 seconds in the mode as huntress.

The 5% slower speed for survivors is a joke honestly. Considering the guide class can put 15-20% on a gen in less than a second. On top of being able to make everyone 8% faster for 10 seconds. Not to mention me spreading hooks negating the gen speed penalty. You can say what you want but being punished for spreading hooks is terrible design. And you must not have read the fact where I said we did spread out hooks and it cost us the game even though we were definitely playing better than the survivors.

I know you don’t play Huntress very much but You really don’t want to be following your team mate around, that’s a terrible strategy and the easiest way to lose. Besides I ended over half my teammates chases for them from across the map while I was downing other survivors so I did more than what was needed.

30 seconds isn’t long at all either so I have no clue what you’re talking about. Free to play weekend is over. We’re not playing against babies anymore. 3 of the survivors had over 6,000 hours. If you can’t last longer than 20 seconds against Huntress that is very bad.

SuspiciousBrownie

@UndeddJester said:

The comeback mechanic was way too simple to be considered a proper comeback mechanic.

I made a thread discussing it here... and how a comeback mechanic SHOULD work...

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/433245/thoughts-on-a-comeback-mechanic-in-an-asym

Sadly it got drowned in the forums, but the highlight was that the 2vs8 comeback fails on 3 points.

The traits that make up a good comeback mechanic are: -

• It only comes into play when one side is being heavily dominated, and otherwise has a minimal or non-existent effect.
• It doesn't remove the winning sides advantage (which effectively punishes them for winning), it instead creates a "risk" that the winning player has to be wary of.
• It still requires skillful play from the losing team to exploit that incurred risk, rewarding them for good play and not giving up.

And 2v8s iteration doesn't really achieve any of them.

Yeah I definitely missed that lol. I agree 100%

They definitely need to do some type of tweaking to it for sure like you said.