chieften333
chieften333
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- chieften333
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You can pry the butter from my cold, dead hands
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@OniWantsYourMacaroni said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1795838#Comment_1795838
The biggest problem for survivor bloodpoint gain is that there are barely any ways to get points in the survival category
Isn't one of the few ways self care? Obviously there's escaping, but is that it?
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1795840#Comment_1795840
Oni is fine on console blights turn speed is also fine jsut practice.
Kind of? His lunge feels very clunky on console. Meanwhile pc players can manage to pull off full 180° turns. I hope they bring him more in line with how PC is able to use him.
Sadly I main our friendly neighborhood drug addict on console.
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To me it seems like the problem with survivor bloodpoints is that they have to go out of their way to earn them.
The killer just does what they normally do, though some of their powers prove to be a detriment in the deviousness category.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1795734#Comment_1795734
The reason they changed Soul Chemical is that it was too similar to C21 in practice.
But even then it was much better before the change. Now it can barely even stand as a purple addon.
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@ilmiglioree said:
Sorry for English I'm Italian.
Blight power need ability and luck in loop but survivor is more easily exposed compared to other killers when they moving from the first loop in search of another
(is similar to long range killers but instead of throwing something it throws itself and even if it fails at least it got close)
You're doing good, most people say the blights main power is in between loops.
But they really underestimate his power in basic jungle gyms. Plus in some cases the blight can make killer shack a death trap.
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Abused how?
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@SirCracken said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1795734#Comment_1795734
You can thank Ethan from the design team for that one.
Thaaaaanks ethan
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@SirCracken said:
More ketamine. He has a pretty high learning curve but is very powerful when played well.
Indoor maps can limit him but he's not completely shut down either. The most I think he needs is some of his add-ons tweaked.
I've used his recently changed Soul Chemical add-on, that causes survivors healing and repairing to get a "difficult" skill check if you rush towards them, but it doesn't stack with Unnerving Presence and is generally worse than what it was before.
On the opposite side of the scale the Alchemist's Ring is borderline broken if you're able to keep landing hits. It turns Blight into a slightly worse version of Nurse before she got her cooldowns, except with even more map pressure.
Wait, they changed soul chemical? I thought they just added on to it.
Edit: I looked it up on the wiki and just... why? It was an ok addon before, not overpowered, not underpowered. The new one seems like it would be something a brown addon would do.
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Sounds reasonable, as cool as they look, they're currently just glorified purple skins.
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@RocketPenguin said:
Feel like you can say this about legit every single game i play but... well actually the Bloons TD6 devs are pretty great but anyway
The art team is great, the devs are nice people, but man do they do some dumb crap, but also 80% of the hate they get is so stupid and those illegitimate critizisms are not deserved.
Well the hate they've been getting is pretty well deserved right now. Considering they green lighted a patch that has, by many accounts, created hundreds of bugs ( I'm not joking, I made a list, and there are about 148 bugs that came out with this chapter)
While yes, they did say they are aware of the numerous bugs and looking into fixing them. The fact that this patch even made it out of internal testing is astounding. Then they give us 300,000 bloodpoints, which is nice and all, but it just feels insulting after the miserable state of this update.
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I've been wondering why there's no base game counter to stuff like that.
I shouldn't have to spend a perk slot just to cover for unbalanced and unfun gameplay.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1795100#Comment_1795100
I like that solution a lot for camping - it'd kill face camping while still allowing proxy camping, which I think is honestly fine. Lets just remove the worst of it.
I'm not sure I'd like base kit DS, though. Killers wouldn't be able to know if someone had it up or not, so you could still bait the killer into taking chases and have them eat a DS. If survivors had some sort of a red glow if you start a chase with them (or something else to show DS was in play), that would help, but then the killer would just know for sure that slugging is the right play. I'm fine with DS as a perk, but I do think it needs more deactivation conditions like the ones you mentioned. I'd actually be fine making the exact effect you mentioned a reworked version of DS, so long as it also had a timer to prevent abuse. I love the idea of letting it activate twice, but making it way harder to activate unless you're actually getting tunneled.
Onyx_Blue made a decent suggestion for slugging, If you scroll up you should see it somewhere
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1795009#Comment_1795009
I'd be okay with that too if done well, but I think that would likely cause some uproar and for good reason. If they added base game protections against these behaviors that would effectively be a substantial nerf to the killer side, meaning they would probably need to be made up for with some corresponding buffs to the killer side. That's tough to do in a fair way, though, since some killers overwhelmingly benefit from camping/tunneling/slugging over others. For example, power surge killers like Oni would seriously suffer from not being able to slug while killers like Pyramid Head that can rapidly send people to cages instead of slugging wouldn't be affected much. Similarly, killers like Huntress, Trapper, and Bubba with a really strong basement game would be really punished by anti-camping measures, while mobile killers like Blight and Billy wouldn't take much of a hit. So, just buffing the killer side in general probably wouldn't be enough to balance the game for this; they'd probably need to give individual attention to a number of killers, which would obviously be a massive work effort.
I don't mind the perk approach for this reason. It'd be one thing if 1) camping/tunneling/slugging were destroying the game and needed to be eradicated at all costs, and 2) that you're extremely vulnerable to / likely to engage in these behaviors without running the perks that directly counter / discourage them, but I don't think that's really the case. I think it's enough to discourage these behaviors, and perks still have a meaningful effect even when people aren't running them. You could be running four meme perks and the killer would still have to worry about picking you up due to DS, would be more likely to hit the rescuer instead of the survivor that just got unhooked for fear of BT, etc. These perks simply existing is enough to disincentivize "unhealthy" behavior.
Now that I'm thinking about it, slugging isn't too much of an issue. As long as it's only for a short duration. There will always be killers who 4 man slug just to let them bleed out.
Plus the tunneling/camping protections I'm thinking of wouldn't be too obtrusive.
Basically base game DS would have deactivation conditions such as healing, repairing, getting into a locker, and another survivor gets hooked. That way, the killer would legitimately have to go out of their way to tunnel you. But the DS would have 2 uses ( because you can only be rescued from the hook twice. )
The base game camping protection is a little more of a complex issue. So what I'm thinking is, when the killer stays in the radius of the hook for an extended period ( not enough to get to phase 2) the hook timer would slow down, then eventually stop entirely, if the killer remains within the radius. When the timer completely stops, the hooked survivor will automatically get borrowed time applied to them when they are rescued.
Edit: the camping system would not apply if you are in a chase within the radius of the hook.
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@Bloodwebs said:
Please explain what interaction exactly you are referring to @chieften333 ?
@HeckaYeah see you seem like a great player! It's a huge bummer that if we were to get in a game together there is absolutely nothing we could do to play again in the future. The DbD friends interface feels a little futile..
The vast majority of messages I've gotten on PS4 are salty players. With maybe one or two neutral comments in the entire notification section.
Plus, to put it lightly, PC players aren't exactly known for being nice in the end game chat.
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@Momentosis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1795057#Comment_1795057
DON'T KICK THE BABY!
C'MON KYLE, KICK THE [BAD WORD] BABY
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KICK THE BABY
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Please god no, social interaction is bad enough with other console players
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1793156#Comment_1793156
What are the causes of the problem, though? It's certainly not that killers are too weak to play "normally", as the post implies. Think about it this way; let's say we buff killer massively so that the whole roster strong enough to win without tunneling/camping/slugging. Does that mean that tunneling/camping/slugging will go away? Absolutely not. Killers who are playing to win will always adopt the tactics that give them the best chance to win. The problem, therefore, is that camping/tunneling/slugging are often the strongest plays a killer can make.
The devs, for their part seem aware of this.
Slugging: They've introduced a number of perks recently that make it harder to slug (Soul Guard, For the People, WGLF rework, Power Struggle, Flip Flop) even beyond the tried and true method of Unbreakable (or No Mither, if you're a masochist). You could argue that perks like Knock Out or Hex: TTS also encourage slugging, and I'd agree somewhat, but there are so many counters to these that the general trend is clearly anti-slugging.
Camping: They tied hook proximity to emblems. BBQ is of course a big incentive to not camp and to spread out hooks. There are many other extremely strong perks that incentivize this, such as Make Your Choice, Pop Goes the Weasel, Thrilling Tremors, and Devour Hope. BT is a strong camping deterrent for most killers too. Perks like Insidious also help camping, but the overwhelming push is towards not camping.
Tunneling: As much as the devs say it's not designed as an anti-tunneling perk, the fact remains that DS has an unhook-based timer and an extremely powerful effect. So, whether or not it was the intention, it's a big deterrent to tunneling. BT is a big incentive not to tunnel off the hook as well. Perks like Off the Record, Babysitter, etc. aren't particularly strong, but they do allow survivors to take a little agency for the killer not tunneling. WGLF incentivizes survivors to prevent tunneling by massively rewarding protection hits.
I think the only way to solve this problem is to make slugging/camping/tunneling to actually be weaker plays than patrolling gens and splitting up hooks. If killers need buffs at that point to keep up, by all means. I think we're moving in the right direction overall, then, but powers like the Twins' that really encourage slugging and camping just don't seem ideal.
Punting Victor is so freaking fun though so I'm not mad :D
The main issue, I think, is the fact that they use perks to cover for those issues. When they have been a blight (heh) on the game since it launched.
Why not just add base game protection for those types of tactics, then rework the band aid perks, then balance killers accordingly?
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@finitethrills said:
Go watch the balance dev on twitch. Realize how futile your request is.
He, himself, camps and tunnels off the hook pretty much constantly.
Really? I realize the devs aren't required to be good at the game, but still...
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@Crypticghoul said:
The big thing that I hate about camping/tunneling (I don't mind slugging as much unless you're leaving the guy on the ground for the full 4 minutes because you want the 4k, which is another topic entirely) is that instead of implementing baseline mechanics to deter unfun gameplay, the developers have implemented deterrence to these gameplay styles in the form of insurance perks -- which you bring because you don't want to be tunneled or don't want your teammates to be tunneled. And the killer just has to play around it assuming you have it.
It just really stifles build diversity when I have to bring DS and BT every game and hope my teammates brought them or else there's the risk of the killer just running down the unhooked person or smacking them straight away off hook. And if you're playing with randoms you really can't rely on them to punish the killer for wasting their time on one guy all game by doing gens.
Anyway that's my brain dump. I've been tunneled a few too many times in the red ranks to not run DS every game -- and have also escaped and wasted tons of the killers time that I wouldn't have otherwise without it because they just wanted to run me down off hook.
TL;DR I hate that I have to bring insurance perks to deter and punish scummy and unfun playstyles as survivor instead of them just being built in mechanics.
Exactly the point I'm trying to make.
Definitely put it into better words than I did.
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@TrapperClaus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794926#Comment_1794926
What are you talking about? How did you assume it was going to have a unique animation? It was dead obvious it was just a commercial, any sane person would see through that instantly /s
Seriously though, it's so dumb they decided to put that animation in trailer and then pretend it was nothing.
At least for oni's minotaur trailer they didn't include special animations.
When they showed off the Krampus skin they did so with special noises and animations. Making it misleading, especially when in the past they said they'd love to do special animations and sounds.
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@Angelicus23 said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/OMXORUA7ZR0I/image.png
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/177703/community-4-1-0-q-a#latest
July the 31st btw. Isn't December the 4th "future"?
Plus did you see the trailer? It looked like and sounded like it was going to have unique animations and sound.
But, I guess we're just going to have to deal with overpriced purple skins.
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@OniWantsYourMacaroni said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794751#Comment_1794751
Now Blight isn't alone anymore when it comes down to wonky object hitboxes :')
I main blight, existence is pain
It's a 50/50 whether or not I'll slam into something on new maps. Or I'll just slide off of the object despite ramming straight into it.
Yet he is so addicting to play as
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@DeliciousFood said:
Camping/Tunnelling/Early Aggressive slugging are easy strategies used by sub-par killer players, or killers that royally screwed up.
The Majority of killer players in this game aren't nearly as good as they think they are, as such making killers that thrive in these practices would please most people. Pyramid Head made tunnelling even more viable. The Twins made Camping and aggressive slugging (more so than even Oni) even more viable. Surprisingly, Blight is the anti-thesis of these lazy strategies. Must've been a slip-up.
Just learn to grief these killers. Hold the game hostage. Form a team and make their lives miserable. They won't hesitate to send you back to 10 minute queues after 1 minute of gameplay and 5 minutes of slugging/camping. Return the favour. It's likely unfun for them since they get nothing, but amusing to you because you're ganging up on the killer to ruin their spree. It's a valid strategy too, since in the end, you're playing on the killer's patience. Just don't do this to those who try to make the game fun and challenging for all, and even less to struggling killers who are trying but aren't very good. It goes from retaliation to just bullying.
EDIT: This applies to killers getting bullied too, just retaliate with aggressive camping/tunnelling/slugging. If the opposition wants to have an easy game, then take the fun away from it before they get their victory.
Look, I'm gonna be real with you, Attitudes like that are what perpetuate toxicity in this community.
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@Bwsted said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794764#Comment_1794764
Server latency is a factor but it almost doesn't come into play on the killer's screen. The real problem is the hatchet hitbox that is very generous and partly the survivors' hitboxes. As Huntress, unironically, a big part of the skill cap is in learning how to use hitboxes to score hits that really wouldn't make sense visually, but they do for the invisible hitboxes. You really aim to touch the hitboxes together. The survivor's and hatchet's models are only proxies. That's how hits around corners are possible by design even if both players were playing p2p on a LAN.
I can't even say that's abusing a game mechanic, because the hitboxes are working as intended. They're just badly designed.
As for the video in the op, the objects often don't fit the hitbox just like hatchets don't. It would be unreasonable to fix the former but not the latter. Not to mention that even if certain throws that look possible actually aren't, there are (were) spots where a hatchet could go through even when it shouldn't. Imagine all these low loops being accurate while you can still throw gymnastic-ball sized hatchets at the survivors.
This one was a hit on a 32ms ping and you can clearly see it doesn't connect on my screen, except the hitboxes do connect and they do so legitimately, as far as how they're designed to work.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794777#Comment_1794777
Exactly right. If you watch closely, even killer content creators, many times you'll see the hit is registered even if on the screen it doesn't make sense. The latency is not the culprit on their screens.
I know at one point they tested smaller hitboxes on her hatchets. If I remember correctly it didn't work very well. Many hatchets looked like they phased through the survivor.
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@DaKnight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794751#Comment_1794751
That's what I say every time I get hit by a hatchet when i'm already around a corner. I hate Huntress so much. At least Deathslinger actually has to hit you.
That's more down to server latency, not really anyone's fault.
But some of those object hit-boxes are not even close to the actual size of the object.
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@Chechia said:
Just watch this. It really hurts my heart to see this.
What in the Kentucky fried [BAD WORD] are those hit boxes?!
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@TrapperClaus said:
I guess it's easier for the Entity to make survivor do stuff with gens if they are familiar with it which happens to be the last ~100-50 years of human history.
As for murder, this is all times classic.
Sounds about right, "an all time classic", that part really killed me XD
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@bm33 said:
Menu, lights on hooks/gens, and firecrackers. That's it. Maybe if they want to be cool add fruitcake BP offering.
Yeah that could be like the gruesome Gateau of the advent calendar event.
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@Dismas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794543#Comment_1794543
Well i would love to hear a proposition that ensures that both killer and survivor can feel safe about the game not going totally wrong for them, so far no response btw.
I got school, can't respond all the time, I'll make one later.
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@PanicSquid said:
Camping, tunneling and slugging can be a valid tactic, allow me to explain.
To set the scene, 1 survivor is dead, one is struggling on hook and two are alive and full health. 3 gens remaining until the end game begins. When I hooked the survivor, my tinkerer went off twice, across the map, and in a short amount of time. My ruin had been cleansed, and I had no other gen regression perks.
What is the correct play here? Going for one of the gens would result in the gen being finished and the hooked survivor being saved, and the pressured gen would be nearly completed. Trying to save both gens would be impossible. Or I can camp and ensure that a player dies in exchange for the 2 gens. The two remaining survivors could have abandoned their gens to attempt to take aggro and save their comrade before they were in dire straits, but they greeded for the gens. (This is a story from an actual match, a few days ago)
Slugging is a little different, but in the same thought. Imagine having a hooked survivor, and you intercept and down their would be savior. Do you pick up the survivor, giving the other 2 a chance to rescue the hooked one, or do you leave them slugged in search of the others to keep up the pressure? What about a dangerous unhook? If you smack the unhooked 1 of 2 cases will play out, they have BT and run away, or they are now on the ground with a potential DS and accusations of tunneling. If you slug here, you maintain the pressure of having one player incapacitated as you now pursue the unhooker.
Tunneling, intentionally tunneling one survivor is pretty bad, but there are cases where it might be needed. For example I tunnel Object of Obsession users out of the game, that perk, in the hands of a SWF, gives too much information to the whole team. So I remove it from play. However, you might want to tunnel a player that is good at stealth to remove the hurdle of having to find them again. Or you might want to eliminate a player that you feel is too skilled at looping. Or you're at 2 gens and you need a survivor dead, if you want to have a chance at winning this trial.
The real issue is that people choose to rely on one of these as the basis of their gameplay. But how do you fix people abusing mechanics of the game without gutting the mechanic and ruining it for the rest of the players. Playing Killer at its core, is a time management game. You need to be efficient, and you need to make the survivors spend their time not working on generators, and make the generators take as long as possible to complete. Each of these tactics is a method to force time to be wasted. But they are not efficient, (or fun), but sometimes you have to do it, to make the game work.
Yeah, but we shouldn't sometimes be forced to spoil someone else's game just to win.
Whenever I've had to tunnel I always feel pretty bad about it. Plus I expect messages coming my way after the game. Surprisingly doesn't happen that often.
But to me those tactics are only worthwhile in the current time crunch meta. If our matches were more drawn out, then we wouldn't have to resort to them to create pressure. Since we would have ample time to create it without spoiling someone else's match.
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794387#Comment_1794387
What I'm saying is this will screw over the killer..the best they can do with victor is give him a tr and frankly that's silly , and this would make them weaker .not stronger
What does victor have to do with this discussion?
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794321#Comment_1794321
Well here then lies the issue for me..my biggest beef with current ds..end game invincibility..and it would just be handed out to everyone like a free 5th perk..
So what you're saying is you'd be upset that you can't tunnel even though it would no longer be required for pressure?
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794005#Comment_1794005
Perhsps but even with restrictions a base mechanic that powerful would be a tad unfair to just give
True, but it would be given at the same time as the early game slowdown mechanic.
Plus with the suggested deactivation mechanics you'd really have to go out of your way to tunnel somebody for it to be activated.
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@xenotimebong said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794068#Comment_1794068
But getting into the first chase isn’t enough. If you go through the chase, hook, chase, hook cycle for the entire game without being able to hook anyone back to back or slug you will lose as killer, even if you have a good start to the match. The early game is important but asserting lots of pressure on multiple survivors is the ONLY way a killer can win, unless the survivors pressure themselves and don’t do gens.
And reworking the gens would be that change to the base game mechanics I was talking about. Who’s the say they’d make something better? Maybe people find gens boring but the simplicity is necessary and what makes the game successful? If you make the survivor objective more interesting but more difficult or stressful, who’s to say that wouldn’t drive people away from the game?
Yes, but the whole chase hook, chase, hook, cat and mouse game is up to the survivors and killers skill.
If you can't catch a survivor, it could either be they outplayed you in many ways, or you just got crappy map RNG. If you find yourself getting downed constantly as survivor it could also be those issues.
One topic i would like to discuss is BHVR themselves. Through all of the reworks and balances this game has gone throough, people have questioned their ability to pull it off without ruining the game somehow. Obviously it hasn't happened yet, otherwise everyone would have abandoned ship by now.
But testing new mechanics is exactly what the PTB is for. If it is unanimously decided by the community that new mechanics interfere with the game too much. They will be worked on to suit the gameplay more. Or the idea is outright scrapped.
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@Moundshroud said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794086#Comment_1794086
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of games. The fun of a game is in the PLAYING of it, i.e. the challenge, the conflict, the pitting yourself against something hard and hopefully getting better. Games, from an evolutionary standpoint, evolved to hone the skills a creature will use to survive. That is why kittens play by hunting and pouncing each other, little goats play smashing horns or climbing things, and so on. Are they having fun? Absolutely. They will keep playing whether they win or lose.
Fun isn't provided by ANY game. You have to bring it with you. You get out of games what you put into them. That is a cold, hard truth that takes most people a lifetime to understand. Many don't figure it out until they are so old that they no longer have the capacity to play as many games as the would like. I'm providing you this information with the understanding that you will refuse to listen. I hope to be wrong, because you will profit kingdoms untold if you do. I'm just pragmatic about it; most people considering being taught something by someone else to have lost an argument, rather than having won wisdom.
If you aren't having fun playing this game, find one that is more to your liking. The health of this game indicates that overall, plenty of people are having fun. What is the difference between them and you? They also encounter (everyone does) tunneling, slugging, camping, and the Mori. Why is it when me and my friends play we aren't triggered into endless tirades of self pity. Why aren't we shoveling grief on other people. We sound like a Football game and will even cheer when downed when we see a wicked good play. My suggestion is that we play for love of the game, not for some weird personal fetish or make-believe power.
When you go into a game and understand its parameters and set no false expectations on yourself (or others) you will have more fun. The game is either fun for you or it isn't. If it isn't, why the heck are you still here? I always doubt the veracity of people making these posts because the logic doesn't track. With the thousands upon thousands of games out there, why waste your time playing one you seem not to like? Why waste even more time coming here to bellyache about it? It doesn't make sense, unless I accept that you are one of those people who enjoys bellyaching about things, and use the internet (and Forums like these) to feel potent and imagine you matter. I can't claim to be that different from you. I'm posting here too. I like to flatter myself that my intentions are different. I do play for love of the game, but why do I post here? I don't have to even be aware of your existence to keep enjoying the game. So we share some flaws.
I really want to help you. The game isn't what is wrong. It is you. You are looking at things backwards:
An old tree obscured my view.
It was sick, it was twisted,
Its leaves mottled, an unhealthy hue.
So I waited for it to die,
But it held on, day in and by and by
So I took an ax to its bough
A fallow field did I plow.
Now I stare at an unfettered view.
It is wide, it is empty.
Why does if field older than new?
It wasn't sick, that old tree.
I know that now, it was only me.
There can be no conflict with which to have fun with if the survivor isn't able to engage the game because of those tactics.
When a killer slugs, the downed survivor is made to sit there while not being able to do anything other than recover. When being tunneled there is some engagement, but only in the chase aspect of the game. Where they will be downed, then slung back on the hook. Camping prevents survivors from making an unhook that wouldn't result in the rescuer being put on the hook and camped.
I admit, I've been using the wrong metric to describe those tactics. fun is subjective, but part of having fun with dead by daylight is being able to engage in the game itself. Which those tactics can prevent.
And please stay on topic, poems and evolution have nothing to do with dead by daylight.
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@NekoTorvic said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794021#Comment_1794021
I'd be careful using words such as "fun" to describe problems with certain tactics.
I did mention survivor grievances with the tactics mentioned but they are not the bulk of my argument.
My main argument is, these tactics deny survivors the opportunity to engage with normal gameplay, and they appear in direct response to the fact killers feel incapable of competing with gens by 12 hooking.
It would seem that for a fair bulk of survivor players, this is a problem, and I'd argue that denying players of engagement with the game is not particularly desirable for the devs either. So it should be addressed.
The issue with strong survivor perks like DS, UB, SG, SB, DH, etc, is not that they are "unfun" to verse, although I can admit there are quite a few people who think they are unfun. The problem with these perks, I would argue, is twofold.
-First the fact that their descriptions might as well be switched for "Undo the fact the killer outplayed you or the fact you made a mistake by pressing/holding a button." They give massive, very impactful benefits for a very low requirement from the survivor, usually at the cost of outright undoing a killer play or their own mistake. Who needs to be careful of being out positioned when they have sprint burst ready?
-Second, the fact they can be stacked with one another (and the fact that games go so fast) to create impossible scenarios where the killer has no meaningful choice to play around the perks. Every choice the killer makes is always wrong. Only find the unhooked survivor, eat DS or waste time leaving them and trying to find someone else, they go into a locker, you either abandon them, which wastes your time and gives them free time to do whatever, you eat the DS, in which case you waste time and get directly affected by the perk, or you wait it out on front of the locker, in which case you give 60 seconds x3 to every other survivor, you slug them and they have UB, they get up and do gens, you come back as they get up and have SG, they get a free sprint burst and waste your time. There is no right choice when these are stacked like this, not when the game can be over in 5 minutes or less by design...
Hopefully this clarifies the mentality I have when arguing these issues and why I think arguments from "fun" are not necessarily that useful and sometimes are so open to interpretation that they cause misunderstanding.
Very good write up, it explains those things better than I could.
Couldn't find a single thing I disagree with.
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@Dismas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794103#Comment_1794103
But that is the whole point of meta perks. They give you the best edge you get against killer/ survivor. That is where fun is lost and the competition takes place. And when you lose you find million things to blame. I would be fine with DS and hell i would be fine with old DS.
The problem is that as a killer I know that those five seconds of stun and then maybe 1 more minute of chase after the ds will cost me 2 if not 3 gens if people know what they are doing and I cannot afford to lose that time.
That is where resentment grows. It also grows when I see devs release a raw patch, with bugs. I strated out playing this game as a suv and i did enjoy it until ranks 8-6 where i started to get slugged and camped. I was too outraged but now i see why it happens. If 3 survivors escape and one dies survivors think it is a loss. Killer thinks the same thing. No-one wins. Toxicity buble bursts. We are arguing on forums.
The only reason those perks are meta in the first place is because they cover for those tactics.
You'll rarely have a game where someone doesn't run DS to prevent themselves from getting tunneled. Or doesn't run unbreakable with DS so they can get out scott free from both tunneling and slugging.
On the killer end ruin is meta because it indirectly slows down the match by removing progression from the gens.
The point is, the meta perks are meta because they cover for unbalanced, and unfun tactics and mechanics.
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@Malum_Midnight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794086#Comment_1794086
It’s almost like 60 seconds of invincibility, a free “get off the ground free card”, not going down after being hit after being unhooked, etc. Point is, both sides have annoying things. You have to counter those things with skill
Yes, if the devs addressed the things I'm talking about, of course they would have to address the perks that were the band aid fixes for those issues.
But tell me, how do i skillfully avoid a camping, tunneling, or slugging killer? I'm not part of the top 1% who can run a killer without being downed, I am an average player. I will eventually be caught, but I shouldn't have to be as good as someone like Otzdarva just to avoid being caught up in unfun tactics.
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@Dismas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794086#Comment_1794086
Ok well then dont bring DS because you should have been dead on hook and now you are free. When you say its a game btw you must remember that this is competitive game. If it was not than we might as well not hold tournaments and care too much about it in general.
Also as said before if killer does not use those tactics than he might as well stand in one place and let everyone go.
Still waiting for the response btw.
Yes I know, other people keep commenting, I'll get to you soon.
As I keep saying, those tactics have their place in the current meta. The main point of the post was to ask why the devs have not addressed the issue of match time ( the short time of which largely contributes to those tactics) , and the issues of those tactics.
Even if match time is addressed there will always be those who use those tactics, even if they don't have to. So there should be base game protection from those unfun tactics.
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@Moundshroud said:
You have answered your OWN question. Let me break it down for you. These tactics have been four years ongoing (always indicated as valid). The game has only grown in size and popularity. Rather than bringing down the game, and ruining its fun (as you seem to infer) the game works pretty darn well. People (most people anyway) like a challenge. There are plenty of games out there where you are not playing PvP and they are rigged entirely in your favor. If this one isn't cutting the mustard for you, seek them out.
Why haven't they addressed these things? It is because they are not broken. They are not a problem. The vocal minority that is the never ending whine and moan here is nothing compared to the vast nameless faces whom we will never see post anything here or put anything up on social media. In short, the game is working out fine so far. They take a slow, meditative approach which honors the notion "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." In short, they aren't going to tinker with something that isn't really a problem, and risk creating ACTUAL problems.
I know it sounds cold and all that, but they don't put much stock by the crying off on this Forum. I don't blame them. They have their own metrics they follow, based on statistics and whatever bias the DEV harbor themselves. Our individual experiences aren't on their mind; they are interested in the collective. And let me repeat, this Forum is NOT the collective. That is self delusion. I was tickled to watch the Q&A and see that one of the guys looks exactly like the bald Dwight. It makes me wonder how many of the other cosmetics are actually based on people we don't see behind the scenes over there. Perhaps some of you unhappy types can vent your frustrations killing their avatars over and over.
I'm not trying to trigger anyone with this post. I'm trying to be pragmatic and give some realistic perspective. Tunneling, Slugging, Camping, and the Mori are all part of the game. It wouldn't be an understatement to say that they are integral parts of the game. Changes to them must be very careful and very slow or the whole apple cart gets upended. The DEV understand that better than we do because their interaction with it isn't personal, it isn't colored by having just been tunneled, slugged, camped, and then given a Mori. In short, our own bias and frustration with anecdotal events clouds our judgement. They are tinkering with the goose that laid the golden egg, and cannot risk mistakes.
So, in closing (I've already gone on way too long), I also feel a twinge when I get tunneled. I don't enjoy being slugged for long periods of time (well it is really only a minute or two that FEELS like a long time), nor do I like being camped, and certainly don't want to catch the Mori. However, I will continue to GLADLY endure these things because the game would be more empty and hollow without them. I'm older than most of you. I played Pong when it first came out. I played Death Race 2000 which was basically Pong with a steering wheel where you ran down stick figure people. I was there when Wizard of War made its debut, and ruled the Arcade with PacMan, Donkey Kong, and all the rest. I was there for all the Fighting games, the rise the console, and up until now. Nobody wants to go back to PacMan. Bots that can only loop you in predictable patterns (which you can memorize) are not a challenge. We live in a video game age where we fight/hunt the ultimate game, i.e. sentient, cunning, and sometimes underhanded Players. If you take away their options, you are left with the Ghosts from PacMan.
I can respect the fact that you kept your comment respectful.
But you admit yourself that you would rather not be caught on the wrong end of a mori, Tunnel, or camping killer. You say you'd endure it, but that is more up to individual patience than anything else.
When you check the forums you'll often see a post complaining about camping, tunneling, and slugging. If these things have been consistently complained about, then doesn't it seem like it would need to be addressed in some way?
Perks hardly cover for unbalanced gameplay. But, Neither should they cover for unfun tactics.
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@Malum_Midnight said:
Also, its almost like the killer’s job is to kill. If you dont like being slugged, bring no mither and unbreakable. A lot of thing can’t be handed to you also. You need to have some skill in this game to compete. You have the perks, but you also need some skill. If you don’t like getting tunneled, bring DS. Killers have things they can do to help them win, and these are solid tactics.
Yes, it is the killers job to kill, But this is a game. It needs to be fun on both ends.
I'm not complaining about any one side in particular. But perks should not be used to compensate for unfun tactics that should have been addressed years ago.
I also mention that within the current meta the killers have to use those tactics to have a chance against coordinated teams. Yes they are solid tactics but they are used to the detriment of the survivors fun.
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@xenotimebong said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794026#Comment_1794026
But if camping, tunnelling and slugging are totally removed as options for killers, match times would need to be extended. An early game slowdown wouldn’t be enough to allow killers to 12 hook every game. So how do you do it? Make gens take longer? Survivors would complain that it’s boring. Add another objective? More M1 holding, boring.
Pausing the hook timer if the killer is within a certain radius would just enable survivors to loop around hooks with impunity so that’s not a good suggestion IMO.
The early game slowdown mechanic would be the thing to extend the match. The early game is where so many killers are weak, because they lack essential pressure until they get into a chase.
It would be up to the devs to make something more fun than holding m1, frankly I'm surprised they haven't made generators more interactive somehow.
But as far as the hook camping thing goes. That could be a condition for the hook timer reactivating.
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@Dismas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794026#Comment_1794026
Ok so, first of all the current bugs need to be addressed because at least three old killers are right now useless: Hillbilly cause chainsaw overheats when breaking a pallot, bubba suffers same fatigue no matter how many charges he used and then my favourite legion running same speed when using his power, really allows you to chain you attack you know on like one survivor. Second thing addressing the slugging tactic: use unbreakable really helps you know 2 unbreakble per team and you should be fine if you are solo survivor though you have to depend on the team but guess what this was a horror game at some point and in order to survive you have to survive not just breeze trough the game, and sometimes you will die. Camping is an interesting topic i as killer main do not support it unless you need to get that one kill when exit gates are powered. When the gens are done killer can do what he wants and i do not blame him. And if you do not like what i wrote because its not fun i have to say to you one thing. If you want to have all the fun as survivor than dont advocate for ballance because i am not having fun when i play the killer that is for sure. And i forgot the tunneling issue, if you play with friends and brought object of obsession dont complain as you are the key to the victory and the killer knows it and has to deal with it asap, especially if its trapper or hag.
Look dude, I'm sorry but could you please break that up into paragraphs?
I'll make an actual response when that's easier to read.
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@Awakey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794021#Comment_1794021
They can be fun, I'm not against it. But it also isn't my job to ensure your fun.
That would be BHVR's, and they haven't been doing a very good job of it.
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@tomas11403 said:
Unfortunately, in the current state of the game, many matches require these tactics if a killers wishes to compete. If survivors are efficient on gens, it simply isn't realistic to expect 12 hooks every game. Therefore, killers take opportunities to apply pressure to survivors, and as you say, these tactics are often unfun as they don't allow the survivors to interact with the game nearly as much. The only interactive slowdown I can really think of that is currently in the game is pig's jigsaw boxes, which at least allow you to run around the map and try your luck at the boxes (even though we all know it's gonna be the fourth one regardless). While this can still lead to "scummy" play such as the pig tunneling the person with the trap (very inefficient tactic), at least its a step above being slugged on the group or stuck on the hook. I don't really know what they could do in terms of a solution to this, but they need to be careful in doing so if they do, because balance changes of this size and significance have the potential to be incredibly harmful to the game's health.
They were talking about the early game slowdown mechanic about a year ago. I'm not sure what happened to it, but it would hopefully address the reasons killers have to use those tactics.
Do you think BHVR could pull that off? A lot of people are saying that balancing these issues would kill the game.
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@TrapperClaus said:
the best and only solution to these problems are making the other choice more viable.
Killers have no reason apart from band-aid perks that may or may not ######### them over not to camp, tunnel or slug. Moreover, doing these strats in one way or the other is more efficient and interesting than doing boring cycle of chasing and hooking.
If we just nerf camping or tunneling to the point of unviability, huge part of the roster will be simply unplayable on high ranks, just like the majority of killer playbase will simply give up on playing against high rank survivors, since playing without camping or slugging or tunneling on such ranks is possible only when you are a few thousands of hours of experience ahead of such survivors which is rarely the case.
But you're missing something. If match times were extended to some degree, then killers would have the time to loop without having to worry about generators popping left and right.
The reason those tactics are used is to slow the game down. So it stands to reason that if the game was already slowed down in some way, there would be no reason to tunnel or slug.
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@xenotimebong said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794017#Comment_1794017
I didn’t say those tactics were broken. I was referring to the proverb, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” - the game clearly isn’t broken since people can’t stop playing it, so why try to fix something that works?
I mean, you’re saying they should try to address the way people play the game to improve survivor fun but there are tons of survivors. There are so many people playing survivor that queue times are awful, in fact. It’s not like survivors are leaving the game in droves. Despite people saying that X or Y is unfun, they continue to play this game every day.
Do you have any suggestions for ways the devs could address camping/tunnelling/slugging/etc. that wouldn’t heavily penalise killers, but also wouldn’t involve having to rework the game? I can’t think of any. And I think reworking the game loop would kill the game so they’re never gonna do it.
It wouldn't drastically rework the overall gameplay loop of the game. But it would require work on their end.
Making DS a base game mechanic that comes with deactivation conditions like healing, repairing, or another survivor being hooked. Make it so if a killer is within a certain radius of the hook for an extended period the timer would pause, thus making sure no value is gained from camping.
Slugging could be addressed indirectly by adding the early game slowdown mechanic. Which we're unsure what the devs have planned, but going off of it's name it would slow the match down in some way. Removing the need to tunnel or slug, camping is more of a pettiness issue than a valid tactic.
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@Awakey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1793309#Comment_1793309
No.
Just like how running Soul, DS, BT and Adrenaline to attempt to counter me is also valid.
So correct me if I'm wrong. But what you're saying is that tactics used in the game should not be fun?
How is there any downside to tactics being fun for both survivors and killers?