anarchy753
anarchy753
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Same thing I did to the oinker dude on reddit, get rid of them :)
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@WolfPad06 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/794980#Comment_794980
Yeah, they'll adapt by USING the recharge add-ons. They are consistently the strongest ones you can use after the rework.
This is not about adapting, there's no "adapting" to not being able to use your blinks right away while moving as slow as the nurse. It just makes you a weaker killer in most chases.
Just using the recharge add ons exclusively isn't adapting, it's living in denial.
People adapt to nerfs all the time, in this game and in any other, they play despite them and in this case can use the new benefits of different add ons to play Nurse in entirely new ways.
Yes, a nerf makes something weaker, but good players aren't going to suddenly suck at Nurse because of this minor change.
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It's just a horrendous map all round.
Far too many of the pallets are laughably safe. (The exception being the ones against cars along the street)
The houses are split evenly along the map with each being stronger than the strongest loop on almost any other map.
At the very least, windows should be blocked so there is only one on of the upstairs of any given house.
I would also say that the balconies on houses should be cut off. It's too strong to be able to sit out there, and not committing to dropping down until the killer is CERTAINLY going through the window. You want to drop down? Commit to it out a window. They remove any potential plays for the killer when you HAVE to go out the window to get them off that edge and then just get sucked into the loop anyway.
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I play both, but a lot more killer these days.
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Approved:
Killer who is currently losing.
Not approved:
Killer who is currently winning.
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Yes, Plague should be able to hurl a chunk upwards then catch it in her mouth.
That is all.
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You can purchase the Leatherface DLC from the steam/console stores, but it's actually cheaper to buy 500 auric cells and unlock him through the DBD store.
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Crouching around the map doing nothing shouldn't be rewarded more highly.
In my opinion, all those event for interacting with the killers' powers should be converted to survival points, and each killer should have at least one event. (Such as "Hatchet Dodge" for any hatchet that lands near you/is thrown while you are in a chase.)
Boldness would be reserved (mostly) for chases and confronting the killer, where survival would increase from disarming traps, dodging killer power attacks, removing RBTs etc.
That would make the survival category actually POSSIBLE to fill by doing things that you already do, but usually lose the points to the 8k cap for having a decent chase.
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@WolfPad06 said:
Not really.
Equip the blink recharge add-ons and the good ol' Nurse will be the same as always. Destroying survivors and ignoring game mechanics.
So what is the end result of this "rework"?
Survivors will not get any more counterplay than before (with recharge add-ons), and still be frustrated by the top Nurse players who killed them with base Nurse anyway.
Nurse mains will be bored because now they HAVE to run the recharge add-ons to do well with her, so there will be no variety and her new add-ons will only be seen in meme builds by content creators.
So basically, all the base kit rework is doing is making playing as Nurse less fun for killers, since now she needs the add-ons to be played as before. Survivors will still get destroyed by good nurses, that won't change.
I think they did a pretty good job so far.
"Nurse mains HAVE to run recharge add-ons"
Except for the good ones who will easily adapt to the cooldown and be free to use any add ons they like.
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@Mochan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/778877#Comment_778877
I sort of agree, but not really.
There are times when suiciding on hook makes sense.
For instance, I just finished a game against Pig where I got caught 5 seconds into the match, downed in a half a minute, got bear trap. Then someone unhooked me. Pig tunnels me, now I'm in a bad spot and can't even loop or prolong the chase, I'm down again in 5 seconds and back on the hook.
Now, I could continue playing, and to be fair I've had many games where this same scenario happened and I pulled a clutch escape at the end.
But at the same time, it's much more likely that pig will just kill me the moment I get off the hook. Assuming someone even bothers to unhook me at this point. I'm not interested in wasting any more time in this game, so I'll just not struggle and die, and move on to my next game.
Now if you are telling me that that kind of behavior is unacceptable, we can simply agree to disagree. You are not changing my mind.
It's a little different scenario from the Freddy scenario given, but that just underscores how bad some builds in this game are and how they aren't healthy for the game.
It's true, it often comes down to builds more than an individual perk/item/add on that determines something is unbalanced.
Is Iridescent Head OP? No, not really. Is the fact that it stacks with Infantry Belt OP? Yeah.
The thing is, there hasn't really been anything that stacks up so heavily on the killer side in a REALLY long time. For the first time, stacking progressively building slows is actually a viable option over something like Ruin.
The issue is that people are taking this as permission to DC or give up because they don't like that perks make their objective take longer, and yet killer have been dealing with 90% of survivor running builds of 4 extra-hit perks in every single match for years, making THEIR objectives take longer.
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@Raven014 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/172031#Comment_172031
Doesn't she already have this outfit but in red and gold?
This is a year old thread that's been necrod for no reason.
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Adam's are just awful.
Would it really hurt to have just a neat, shaven haircut? Nah we have the options of flat top, expensive flat top, yellow mushroom cap, or tumbleweed sitting on his head.
His clothes are pretty much all crappy and nerdy.
Close second place goes to Ace. Outside of his stuff that's in the cosmetic DLC packs his clothes are horrendous.
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I haven't used one in months. I find I get far more utility out of other perks than them.
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Yes.
@anarchy753 said:
Many people consider Pig to be one of the most balanced killers. By this I mean that facing her isn’t like going against Nurse, Spirit or Billy, where the power is incredibly strong and learning it well often means escape hardly comes down to survivor abilities, but her power (mostly) isn’t considered a hindrance or severely situational like Freddy, Legion or Leatherface. However, I still believe that the Pig is one of the killers most in need of, not quite a “rework,” but a power and add on tune-up similar to that of Trapper, Hag and Wraith.
Pig suffers from a lot of add ons that do not provide much of a benefit to her. Due to her multifaceted power, she has many small add on effects which are rarely brought to a trial because their effects cannot often be seen within a match, have little to no effect on survivors, or encourage playstyles that don’t suit the Pig’s stalling ability, like making trapped targets easier to tunnel. Additionally, many of her rarer add ons suffer such high penalties that they feel more harmful than helpful.
Really ask yourself, when was the last time you came up against a Pig that wasn’t packing combat straps? If they weren’t, did they even use her crouch or ambush past the first minute of the match? When was the last time you saw someone using Pig’s Very Rares or Ultra Rares, besides the Jigsaw’s Sketch and Tampered Timer combination?
My biggest issues with Pig’s power and add ons:
• Too many useless/clutter add ons - Many add ons only serve as a worse version of an add on seen as alright. While many killers have generally not great common and uncommon add ons, Pig’s tend to stack up or change effects on tracks rather than improve upon their strength, meaning some early add ons (Shattered Syringe, Workshop Grease, Razor Wires) have a basically pointless effect.
• Stealth and ambush – The time it takes to crouch and uncrouch feels really long. The ambush noise and charge time provide too much warning for survivors to run, and causes it to often be countered out by Sprint Burst. The speed at which you move in stealth makes it inefficient to use for any extended time. All of these together mean people often choose to neglect it entirely.
• Bandaid add ons – While many killers have various builds to create various playstyles, Pig players often feel cornered into Combat Straps/Video Tape to cover the gaping weaknesses in Pig’s base kit.
• Add ons seem counterintuitive to the power – While Jigsaw’s Baptism is set up as a sort of set-it-and-forget-it stalling ability, designed to keep trapped players busy while you hunt down others, many add ons apply status effects to trapped survivors which serve no purpose except for making them easier prey to tunnel, including exhausted and mangled. Experienced Pigs often won’t go near these add ons as they don’t affect them in game because they don’t play that way, and those that do use them make the game feel very unfair for the survivors they’re against who become crippled once they’ve been caught once.
• Downsides on rare add ons – Many killers have downsides on their add ons, and often it’s to encourage a different playstyle, however Amanda’s Secret and Amanda’s Letter both cripple such important aspects of Pig’s power that the benefits they provide don’t ever feel worthwhile.
So, here is my intended tune up to the Pig’s power and suggestion for reworking her add ons:
Base Power changes:
• Decreased crouch/uncrouch time by 25%. - A general improvement to the quality of the power. Decreases peoples reliance on combat straps every game. It isn’t an effect that should be on an add on track of its own, with close to useless commons and potentially overpowered rares, but it’s something that should be a little bit improved across the board.
• Ambush attack ‘roar’ now plays at the end of the channel rather than during. No longer plays Insidious screech. – Lowers the amount of time survivors have to sprint burst away and build ground before you begin your ambush. Also the roar and the screech serve the same purpose, but the roar is more custom for Pig, there’s no need for both.
• Ideally, (possibly too strong but it’s often requested anyway) survivors cannot see Jigsaw box auras until their trap is active. If it’s too strong, possibly increase the base trap timer slightly. Traps are largely designed to keep survivors under pressure, and the ability to search multiple boxes and potentially remove the trap before it’s even on a timer often feels underwhelming.
• Improved Deviousness points. Each failed/successful ambush should grant points similar to most abilities used to cover some distance. Added score when an RBT is removed with increased points the longer it remained on, or active. Deviousness points for “Game Over.” It should be considered reasonable to max deviousness on ANY killer by using their power a decent amount, you should not be required to make EVERY hit an ambush just to cap it.
Removed add on effects:
• Utility Blades – Survivors caught in a Reverse Bear Trap suffer from the Haemmorhage status effect. For the same reason as Sloppy Butcher’s rework: HAEMMORHAGE IS TERRIBLE. It’s never worth an add on slot by itself. If anything it just works with Blood Hound, and it isn’t entirely necessary for that anyway.
• Amanda’s Secret – Disables Pig’s ability to see Jigsaw Boxes’ auras. Gain a notification when a survivor removes a Reverse Bear Trap. Auras of survivors removing a Reverse Bear Trap are revealed to you for 6 seconds. This add on is so weird and bad. You are discouraged from tunnelling a trapped survivor by preventing you knowing where their goals are, however the upside of the add on is to… encourage you to tunnel someone the second their trap is off? You get more clear information of where they remove their trap, but the odds that that information comes at a useful time are poor, and the end result is you probably don’t waste time going to a Jigsaw Box until you know where the survivor is, but it’s still so useless to bring into a trial.
• Workshop Grease/Razor Wires – Each makes it ever so slightly more likely you’ll get skill checks on Jigsaw Boxes. At most it’s like +1 skill check per box. Considering the skill checks are entirely default, these have so little impact on the game it’s not worth keeping the effect.
• Gears – Reduces the time it takes to place Reverse Bear Traps. I mean I suppose it could fit in somewhere, I just don’t feel that it’s meaningful enough to be kept.
New/Reworked version of add ons:
Common:
• Utility Blades – A modification to the Jigsaw Box: the addition of sharp blades makes it difficult and potentially painful to search them. - Slightly increase the time it takes a Survivor to search a Jigsaw Box. Slightly increase the penalty of failed Skill Checks on Jigsaw Boxes.
There is very little value in increasing skill check odds on a Jigsaw Box. In most cases above rank 20 survivors can hit a basic skill check. By increasing the Jigsaw Box duration slightly you guarantee that a little bit of time is wasted for them regardless, and increase the odds slightly of getting a skill check as they must interact for longer anyway. Combining the jumble of Jigsaw Box add ons in this way (ignoring more skill checks, and incorporating effects from the Gears add ons and Interlocking Razor) also simplifies Pig’s add ons and gives her clearer progression, and more tangible effects than “maybe they get one extra skill check that I’ll never know about.”
Replaces “Workshop Grease” simply because that was such a cop out of an add on, has no real grounding in the Saw universe.
• Shattered Syringe – A symbol of a broken life. Reminiscing about her past-self hardens her determination - Slightly increases the duration of the ambush.
- A more useful and reasonable effect for the Pig, increasing the duration of the ambush allows Pig to cover a little more ground. This allows better positioning to ambush, as well as reduces how hard the Pig is punished by Sprint Burst being a kneejerk reaction for survivors. This seems like an obvious, and not inherently broken add on effect and I don’t really know why it wasn’t an option already.
• Combat Straps – Leather straps that hold fabric in place for nimbler movement - Slightly decreases the time it takes to crouch.
- Now reduces the time to crouch/uncrouch by 33% instead of 50%. Coupled with the base reduction in crouch time, results in the same final crouch speed as before, but is a less significant change from the base kit to reduce player reliance on them.
• John’s Medical File – The medical file of a cancerous man. Fills the reader with dread and recklessness. - Slightly decreases the ambush attack charging time. Slightly decreases the ambush attack miss cool-down.
- There’s no reason for the miss cooldown to be a separate effect, on its own it is never a valuable effect that only works if you’re planning to fail an ambush. It therefore also isn’t worth the secondary Video Tape add on to combine these two common add ons, essentially people already treat John’s Medical File and the Video Tape as the same thing.
Uncommon:
• Razor Wires – A modification to the Jigsaw Box: the addition of razor sharp wires makes it extra difficult and potentially painful to search. - Moderately increase the time it takes a Survivor to search a Jigsaw Box. Moderately increase the penalty of failed Skill Checks on Jigsaw Boxes.
- Continues a clear add on track with increasing rarity, something Pig sorely lacks at the moment.
• Video Tape – A recording of Jigsaw, explaining the game’s rules to Amanda. Reminiscing about her past-self hardens her determination. – Moderately increases the duration of the ambush. Slighty increases the ambush attack miss cooldown.
A direct upgrade to the new Shattered Syringe, a simple effect which improves what should be a staple part of the Pig’s kit, not something that should be used for the first hit of the game then neglected.
Increasing the miss cooldown makes what could be a strong add on somewhat limited. It should also prevent spamming ambush being a mobility method to get around the map quickly.
• Last Will – A latched wooden box with a satin lining, offered as part of a last will. - Increases available Reverse Bear Traps by 1.
- No real issue with this one.
• Face Mask – A modification to the Reverse Bear Trap: the heavy cloth face mask, laced with sedative, partially suffocates the target, making it hard to concentrate. – Survivors caught in a Reverse Bear Trap suffer from the Blindness Status Effect.
- While this is not one of her most highly sought after add ons, it is used from time to time and exists in blindness builds for her. Unlike other status effects, being on the RBT instead of the ambush makes sense as it makes coordination difficult, but doesn’t really aid in a chase.
• Tripwire – A modification to the Jigsaw Box: Clear wire designed to hinder and punish inattentive victims. – Moderately reduces the time between the Skill Check warning noise and the Skill Check on Jigsaw Boxes.
- Something the Pig really lacks at the moment anything that makes skill checks more difficult on Jigsaw Boxes. Currently she has add ons to make them more common, or more punishing, but nothing except Unnerving Presence actually makes them more difficult than a regular check. It isn’t so strong an effect that it should be highly rare though.
Rare:
• Nail Bomb – A modification to the Jigsaw Box: a homemade bomb built from nails and C4 means extreme care must be taken when searching and mistakes could cause severe damage. - Considerably increase the time it takes a Survivor to search a Jigsaw Box. Considerably increase the penalty of failed Skill Checks on Jigsaw Boxes.
- Again, continuing the add on track rather than having a series of different effects scattered around rarities.
• Arrest Record - The detailed criminal history of Amanda Young. Reading it fills her with rage and a thirst for vengeance over the injustices it contains. – Considerably increases the duration of the ambush. Moderately increases the ambush miss cooldown.
Again, continuing an add on track with a solid effect. Increasing the ambush both improves the viability of add ons which add debuffs to the ambush, and promote using it more in general.
Again, scale the miss cooldown a little bit to prevent it being used to move hastily around the map, instead of as an ambush.
• Rusty Attachments – A modification to the Hidden Blade: Spikes, covered with crusty and volatile rust spots that make it particularly difficult to heal. - Survivors hit by the Ambush Attack suffer from the Haemmorhage and Mangled status effects.
- Two birds with one stone here. Firstly, haemorrhage should already have been deleted and just incorporated into mangled. Secondly, by moving the effect from the reverse bear traps to the ambush players are encouraged to use the ambush to get hits more often than just the first hit of the game. With small buffs to the ambush this would also be a simpler task. This also means that a target you’re going after is afflicted with status effects, (LIKE HOW EVERY OTHER KILLER WORKS) rather than punishing someone you’ve already caught and trapped. It encourages players to go for new targets rather than crippling already hooked survivors and making them easier to tunnel.
• Slow-Release Toxin – A modification to the Hidden Blade: A poison that is not fatal, but weakens the body and makes it nearly impossible to recover fully from any effort. - Survivors hit by the Ambush Attack suffer from the Exhausted status effect.
- Again, moving this to the ambush prevents effects like Lithe, Balanced Landing and Dead Hard when a survivor has been struck by the ambush, rather than limiting their chase potential AFTER they’ve already been caught, trapped, and are not contributing to the team’s progress.
• Jigsaw’s Sketch – A disturbing, yet brilliant, Trap design sketched in detail on a sheet of paper. – Increases available Jigsaw Boxes by 1. Moderately increases the Reverse Bear Trap death timer.
Only change is swapping the name and flavour text with the Very Rare counterpart, as the “annotated plan” sounds like Jigsaw put much more effort into it.
While it isn’t a great add on, it’s purpose is clear; removing traps wastes more time. They are similarly lethal as there is more time to search more boxes, but overall it should increase the time survivors are not progressing in the game.
Very Rare:
• Amanda’s Letter – A blackmailing letter for the attention of Amanda. Fills the reader with rage and focus. – While crouched, see the aura of Survivors within 12 meters of range.
- This is moved and reworked on par (if not still worse) than Wraith’s all seeing add on. He has stealth, IMPROVED MOBILITY and an ambush-esque attack, and just having aura reading is considered alright. Pig has stealth, decreased mobility and an ambush, so logically does not require penalties to RBTs and Jigsaw Boxes as a trade off. Yes, the intention is for add ons which shift her playstyle but “using crouch more while sacrificing a majority of her stalling power” doesn’t really work out.
• Jigsaw’s Annotated Plan – A disturbing, yet brilliant, Trap design laid down on paper and annotated by Jigsaw. – Increases available Jigsaw Boxes by 1.
- Same as “Jigsaw’s Sketch,” only the name and description are swapped.
• Tampered Timer – A timer that has been fiddled with. A spring in the mechanism forces the gears to turn faster. – Moderately reduces the Reverse Bear Trap death timer.
No real issues with this, it’s a decent add on used to make several other add ons more potent.
Would prefer it be a better reference. Amanda didn’t tamper with a timer, but in several cases fixed games by tampering with locks. (Both Allison Kerry’s Angel Trap, and Timothy Young’s Rack were saboutaged so that obtaining their keys would not free the victim. Also in the series, Seth Baxter’s Pendulum is saboutaged by Hoffman to not release the victim, though simply seems to have no shut-off mechanism.)
• Interlocking Razor – A modification to the Jigsaw Box: the addition of interlocking razor blades makes it impossible to escape the Jigsaw Box without slitting one’s wrists. – Successfully removing a Reverse Bear Trap will injure a survivor. Cannot put already injured survivors into the dying state.
- An alternative to Amanda’s Secret. Rather than revealing survivors when they remove the trap. (As discussed, situational, difficult to use information which generally only serves to allow you to tunnel someone slightly later than tunnelling a trapped survivor) the survivor is injured when they remove their trap. While it may serve to make them an easier target if they happen to do it near the Pig, it would instead guarantee that more time is wasted for the survivor. Especially in cases where a trap is removed on the first or second Jigsaw Box, it adds an element of stalling which is unhindered by RNG.
Ultra Rare:
• Rules Set No.2 – A tape player holding the instructions to one of Jigsaw’s games. However, the rules have changed; Amanda’s games are designed for punishment and vengeance, rather than a chance at rehabilitation. - Disables the survivor’s ability to see Jigsaw Boxes’ auras. Disables the Pig’s ability to see Jigsaw Boxes’ auras. Decreases available Jigsaw Boxes by 1. Decreases available Reverse Bear Traps by 2.
- Like an Ultra Rare should, this really shifts the gameplay and has an extreme effect. Firstly, less RBTs and less Jigsaw Boxes. The penalties are part of the current Amanda’s Letter but not as harsh, as well as that of Amanda’s Secret. 2 RBTs with a 1 in 3 chance of getting the right Jigsaw box. HOWEVER, neither the survivors nor the Pig can see the Jigsaw Box auras AT ANY TIME. This means it’s up to the survivor to search the map for the 3 boxes, but it is much harder for them to be caught out searching them by the Pig. Traps would be highly lethal, but there are only 2 (max of 3 with Last Will) and the odds are decent of removing them if you find Jigsaw Boxes efficiently (Can be made more difficult with the Plan/Sketch, which also throws a curve ball upon searching the third box as without auras, you couldn’t tell that there is an extra box until you need it.) I think this would be much more in line other Ultra Rare add ons that drastically shift up how the game plays out, (Tombstone, Fragrant Tuft, Iridescent Head, Coxcombed Clapper, the list goes on and on) really focusing the game onto the RBTs and turning them into a true down-to-the-wire stress test.
• Iridescent Key – The key to the Shotgun Collar, worn like a trophy around Amanda’s neck. Holding the fate of a victim fills the wearer with a sense of power and determination. – Increases available Reverse Bear Traps by 1. Become obsessed with a survivor. The obsession begins the trial wearing an active Reverse Bear Trap.
Similar to Freddy’s Black Box add on, but less possible to do nothing. The obsession begins the match with a reverse bear trap already on a timer (possibly granted a longer timer than the other 4 RBTs for fairness.)
This would accentuate Pig’s stalling ability by starting with one less survivor jumping straight onto gens.
Possibly too strong, as finding the obsession early would make survival very difficult.
OR ALTERNATIVELY
• Iridescent Key – The key to the Shotgun Collar, worn like a trophy around Amanda’s neck. Holding the fate of a victim fills the wearer with a sense of power and determination. – Reverse Bear Traps placed on victims are active immediately.
No delay waiting for a generator to go off, no extra breathing room for survivors. From the time they are unhooked (or healed from dying) their trap timer will start.
Possibly requires “Moderately increases the Reverse Bear Trap death timer” as a downside, as paired with the tampered timer it would probably net multiple kills each game.
TL;DR:
• Improve the Pig’s base crouch time and ambush. These shouldn’t feel like default add ons to bring. Importantly the ambush should still be an initiation tool. As it is now it can be used tactically in chases as well, but it shouldn’t feel like Pig can just drop into crouch mid chase and catch you by ambushing while you sprint away.
• Improve deviousness gains
• Clear out add ons which provide little to no effect
• Condense many random but similar add on effects into clearer tracks that provide more tangible effects:
- Ie. “Dangerous Materials” – Uniformly increase the time it takes to search a Jigsaw Box and more harshly punish failed skill checks.
• Create add ons which improve her power more clearly and synergise with Jigsaw’s Baptism’s concept of “survivors who are trapped are not a high priority, and should waste their own time.”
“Reminders of Past Self” – Improve the ambush duration, and make missing the ambush slightly more punishing
Several debuffs moved from “trapped survivors” to “survivors hit by the ambush attack” – with small improvements to the ambush, as well as add ons affecting it… at all… debuffs being moved to the ambush should feel more natural to apply and more impactful.
• Ultra Rare add ons reworked entirely to match similar tier add ons of other killers, drastically altering how the game plays out, rather than the existing ones which only provide small effects, or cripple the Pig’s ability to stall for effects other killers get without downsides.
Pig doesn't really need a buff to her base power, but her add ons are absolute garbage that really need to be completely overhauled.
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@HatCreature said:
I'm excited to look at them and hopefully see people actually USE THEM, I rarely see anyone actually wearing store cosmetics when it comes to Killers.
The Michael one is pretty unlikely, trading head to toe black for a bright blue on a stealth killer is a pretty big downgrade.
Only time it'd be cool would be on Lery's when you look like a mental patient and play with the mirror so being hard to see doesn't matter.
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I mean it'd be pretty dumb to not release cosmetics for the Halloween characters ON Halloween.
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@Volfawott Pretty damn accurate on the Pig ones.
Guess I'll do my new main then, Plague:
S - Absolute game changers.
Black Incense - You see everyone, ALL THE TIME. Survivors who like crying about everything are seriously sleeping on this one.
Iridescent Seal - Survivors are never expecting you to suddenly become corrupt while they're 2 meters from you and possibly just broke. Some serious potential in this one. Also encourages cleansing since there's no advantage not to. Downside is movement slow while corrupt but can be negated with the Worship Tablet. Also out of your control when it triggers, but it's not like it disables normal corruption.
A - Strong in every match.
Incensed Oil/Potent Tincture/Healing Salve - Purge cooldown is incredible. It lessens the movement slow duration after you puke, as well as allowing you to act more quickly. If you land a purge that breaks the survivor, these add ons can be the difference between one or more loops, or an instant down following it.
Ashen Apple/Blessed Apple - Starting with a corrupt pool is strong. If you activate it when all survivors are broken it can lead to a lot of cleansing that changes how the whole match goes.
Vile Emetic/Infected Emetic/Emetic Potion - Purge effectiveness breaks survivors faster. With no add ons a single, uninterrupted purge can break a survivor, but with any of these even a dodging survivor is likely to break from one or two pukes. Makes things more efficient.
B - Good, but wasted bloodpoints if survivors don't cleanse.
Worship Tablet/Prayer Tablet Fragment - Movement speed while corrupt, can either counter the ultra rares downside, or turn you into a ######### missile when you get corrupt.
Devotee's Amulet/Exorcism Amulet/Prophylactic Amulet - Increase corrupt duration. Straightforward, good, depressing waste of points if nobody cleanses.
C - It's alright.
Olibanum Essence - Movespeed while charging. Pretty decent effect, but only "slightly." Best paired with cooldown add ons or the ground gained isn't much.
D - Bloodweb fodder.
Severed Toe - Faster infection gain from interactions. Only really affects people that are sick but not broken, so basically just those who unhook people if you're thorough. Too passive for my liking and too likely to do ######### all.
Hematite Seal/Limestone Seal - Increase infection time on objects. It's nice, it MIGHT keep someone off a gen for a couple of seconds, but it's really not worth an add on slot to do so.
F - Actively a hindrance.
Rubbing Oil - Charge speed. While it can be handy on full charge vomits, this one feels rough to use after you've played a fair bit of Plague, as the minimum duration vomit goes way up. You can't quickly sneeze on a gen, or shoot that last little bit to break someone, or launch a spit to snipe down a survivor with corrupt like a beast. Instead it locks you into a full second or so of vomiting with the minimum charge.
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Aside from a full rework of the killers who need it? (like Trapper and Legion especially.)
Delete Saboutage. Remove it from toolboxes, remove the add ons, give Jake a new perk.
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GG isn't really so much about the game itself. You say "good game" after sports regardless of how badly you stomped/were stomped. It's just basically a sign of respect as one player to another.
Your examples are pretty mediocre. Ace wiggled off, then just abused a dead zone on the map. Either that's a really unlucky map layout for the killer, or they're going against sabs. Either way, neither of those are enjoyable in the slightest. Saboutaging is just a terrible anti-fun and having someone use it to then basically sit in your face and go "I'm untouchable here," yeah that's pretty BM.
As killer, I always try to say GG unless they were actively ######### (or are a 4 stack with 16 second chance perks) but I've got to say, I almost NEVER get a GG back unless it was a 3-4 person escape.
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@Psychopathy said:
I do agree with some of these. However, maybe instead of a flat 5 seconds, it should be a flat three. Second, There has to be less than 3-number of survivors left to open the hatch. Third, how about each key actually does something besides opening? So you wouldn't have to run an add-on, and after you use the time with the key, only then it can be used to open a lock.
Fourth, what else uses a black lock? Why can't there be any other form of black lock that survivors can find, maybe unlocking one of the doors in The Game, or a hallway?
I went with 5 seconds so that it can't be used in the blade wipe animation. You couldn't tank a hit on the hatch and open it in the time a killer takes to wipe their blade.
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Hillbilly.
"Oh, I hear a completely directionless chainsaw noise, I should get behind cover."
"LOL [BAD WORD] YOU, you hid behind the SOUTH side of an obstacle instead of the WEST side so you're instadowned when I come around the corner in under half a second, no chase for you!"
Oh, you went through a window and around a corner? Nah, you're still downed.
You went 180 degrees around a wall? Nah, I turned at the start so I still hit you.
"Counterplay" is not "50/50 shot that he'll turn left when you go right" and vice versa.
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Yeah it is pretty uncounterable.
You can KNOW they have the perk, you can KNOW which locker they're in, but your only options are completely leave them, or tank the stun like a chump.
Like you said dodging out of the way of the locker is an absolute crapshoot, especially with the dedicated servers, so "you were in front of the locker on their screen" means you get stunned.
I'm happy the perk is working as intended, but a stun like this with 0 counterplay is a bit #########.
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@Atrushan88 said:
I like how there's no option to say they're fine as they are. I think they're fine. They juggle survivors, and have the ability to create a lot of pressure. Their power may not kill, but it's such a hindrance that you don't need your power to kill. Either no one heals and you're basically Tier 3 Myers without the vault speed, or they do heal and the gens never get done. Either way they have to mend if hit with your power, so gens are going slower either way. Watch True play Legion.
No.
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As a warning to other killers not to cross BHVR.
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I'd say Trapper is inherently weakest as a killer, but pretty close to, if not tied with Legion and Wraith.
- Traps take forever to collect and place, and this NEEDS to happen at the start of the match when getting an early down is most crucial.
- Traps take a disproportionately small time to disarm.
- You can struggle to get out with an insanely high chance of success even with add ons. A teammate guarantees an escape in 3 seconds. For all the setup, unless someone jumps in one directly in front of you the odds are stacked against you that you can even get them.
- His power can be permanently disabled for the whole match by 1 or 2 brown toolboxes at 0 consequence. How is that still in the game?
- His add ons are 90% trash and luck based, and you basically only have 1 slot unless you want to cripple yourself without a trapper bag.
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I'd say yes.
For myself it's not about tunneling, more about making sure they die over other people if the opportunity presents itself. (two left, one might get hatch, which do I hate more sort of scenario.)
While I'm glad it's actually working as a perk now, I find it very frustrating how little counterplay there is to it. You can KNOW a survivor has Head On, you can KNOW what locker they're in, but there's nothing you can do about it besides get stunned or leave them.
You can try the move where you walk in front of the locker then quickly move back out of the way, but that's such a 50/50 move, especially with dedicated servers on.
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Not at all.
As survivor I feel like I lose a lot of my choice in the game. I can't just finish off that generator across the map, in case nobody else goes for the save, and it takes too long to run there. There's also the risk of larger open areas with no pallets or obstacles that can help me in a chase.
As a killer it takes far too long to get between gens, and clearing areas of pallets takes a long time. You become reliant on survivor mistakes far more than on a smaller map.
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It could be based on perk tier. Tier 1 of every perk is yellow, tier 2 is green, and tier 3 would be purple. Across the board it should also lower prices a little and make each finalised build a nice matching colour, rather than just random colours for barely related effects.
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Because other add ons provide beneficial effects as well.
If you can't play around a tiny cooldown, like most people were already able to successfully on the PTB, you can spend your add on slots to play Nurse essentially without a cooldown.
In doing so you're opting out of increased range, faster charging, lower fatigue, or the many strange effects on her new add ons JUST to be without a 2 second cooldown.
The major difference is that now you can't be without a cooldown AS WELL AS having huge range, or faster charging, etc.
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It's an incredibly small nerf in 99% of cases.
Someone MAY be running Spine Chill or Premonition which means it might takes you like 3-5 seconds longer to get to tier 2 IF you happen to be stalking that person at the start of the match.
THAT'S IT.
In terms of Mirror Myers they don't provide much benefit anyway as knowing he's near is nowhere near a counter to a stealth killer who sees every move you make.
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@Gavindo714 said:
I like some of these ideas but i don't understand the "all keys start broken" like do they change after the match? also I agree with the small charge time to open the hatch, its a nice nerf.
It would basically just be to show that the key can only be used to read auras like a broken key now. Once the conditions were met to open the hatch it would become a full key.
That way you would never have a "key" standing on the hatch and not be able to open it, you'd have a broken one.
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I don't know about you, but every SINGLE game seems to start with all survivors spawning together these days.
As killer I literally just walk to the furthest gen from me and it's like a 90% chance that there's 3 people on it.
If you play a little cautiously and try to spot the killer before getting on a gen, you may stand a better shot.
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@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/783701#Comment_783701
To support you, it would take 10 hits with Franklin's to BREAK a key. What survivor will let you hit them 10 times while they hold a key? They would even have to pick it up EVERY TIME so they could drop it again to damage it! What survivor in there right mind wouldn't just leave that key there, knowing you have Franklin's, then come back later for it.
Franklin's does nothing against Keys other than making you drop it once.
Also, for the record? Trapper traps used to not respawn after they got broken.... neither did hooks.
And being able to break Trapper's traps for 4 minutes at the cost of 15 seconds and 1/10th of a brown toolbox still exists. That's basically enough to win the game if you all just do one.
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I've been having huge success on Plague recently. I made it to red ranks last season using nothing but her despite her absolute garbage emblem gains, and was 4king most matches there without add ons.
https://i.imgur.com/iVFiKmM.jpg
Dying Light and Thana has been a huge step forward for her because it means there's a much more legitimate threat to not cleansing than she's had before. There was always Thana but as it stacks with Dying Light it gets really stressful for survivors and many have started to cleanse as it gets later. My main dislike for Plague when she came out was that not cleansing was just too solid as a strat so she was very boring as you basically only got to play an M1 killer all match.
She's a really fun killer to play for me, puking on everything is pretty fun, she creates a really unique dilemma of cleanse or not for the game which keeps each match a little bit unique. Her power is strong in both aspects as one hit downs all match is very strong, and her ranged corrupt attack is destructive if you can find survivors when they immerse as soon as they hear the ding.
She has very potent generator defense, and if you can wrangle a 3 gen I'd argue she's one of the best killers at it. I stack the 2 slowing perks with PGtW so each hook sets a gen back, and with an extra DL stack takes even longer to complete that same section. Survivors get antsy and cleanse, but puking on the gens means they really gain nothing from that.
I also find there's almost no need to slug for the 4k as long as you track down the hatch. By that point the last survivor is either broken, and can usually be heard hiding near a gate, or leaving green puke on windows nearby, or they've cleansed and you can infect the gate switches to know when they touch one.
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@Mochan said:
Just finished another match with Plague. This time it was a Rank 10 and not a Red Rank Plague, matchmaking is wonky like that. We cleansed like crazy again on Grim Pantry. All four got away. Not gonna allow Thanatophobia and Dying Light to put us down.
I was the Obsession and I fished and Engi toolkit and I powered my way through the gens as Dying Light wasn't affecting me.
Cleansing is a valid strategy people. Especially with the current meta where Plague is stacking Dying Light and Thanatophobia, I'd say it's the correct play instead of going broken the entire match.
I was probably in an SWF though judging by the user names of the 3 I was with. This Plague looks like she was still a little new so that plus going against an SWF probably counted a lot for how she was outplayed.
To be fair, that's thana 2 and dying light 1. With the slow values on them it's barely even noticible.
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I'd never seen it disputed that you could hear her. (Though I'm half deaf and can't most of the time.)
I thought most of the issue was people thought she moved grass while phasing which apparently she doesn't.
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@Mochan said:
It's not a magical solution, but it doesn't have to be. It is enough to deal with the problem most of the time, and second keys aren't really that unbalanced.
I know your stance on it, I read the thread, but most games with keys really don't end that prematurely. You need to SWF to even get everyone in the hatch for the most part. And even then enough gens had to have been completed to allow it.
It can be annoying if you killed 1, 1 gen left and all 3 left, but it's not that big a deal. How often have you seen that anyway? It's not easy to pull off. More likely one guy is just gonna leave and you can kill the last two at your leisure.
If one guy is managing to escape with most gens still undone, just let him have it. You already won. You already killed three of them.
You want to talk about can't adjust perks? Survivors can't even see the killer in the lobby. How many times have I brought a healing loadout only to be matched against Plague? How many time I wished I brought Iron Will when I got a Spirit? Or Urban Evasion for Hag? Perk regret isn't a killer-only thing and believe me Survivors have it much worse.
50/50 Plunderer key fishing is false. Don't exaggerate. I should know, I run Plunder builds all the time.
Keys are strong, but they have more than enough counterplay. And while having Franklin's is nice, it isn't needed. You can counter keys even without a build. You just need to tunnel the keybearer. Many survivors won't even notice and won't pick up the key at the hook.
"I should know, I run Plunder builds all the time."
Cool, so we know why you're vehemently against them getting balanced.
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It's difficult to say accurately, because I had them all done before the Plague patch which made them require a double pip for killers.
As survivor; David by a long shot. Laurie's would have been harder but I fluked a baby Nurse the first time. David was just awful being broken permanently. One time I got to the hatch and ended in a standoff and lost just because I gave in.
As killer, Plauge. Plague gets TERRIBLE emblem scores. In order to max out some of them you have to slug people and let them be picked up SO MANY times. Her perks are also absolute garbage. Corrupt Intervention does not slow gen progress, it just changes which gens they're on which still cripples Lightbringer. Infection Fright is iffy as anything, no guaranteed help. Dark Devotion is awful.
Runners up for killer go to Huntress and her awful perks, but also needing to learn to throw hatchets, Nurse for having to learn her from scratch, and Ghostface for being terrible with bad perks.
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As survivor, open the gates.
It doesn't matter how well or poorly I do in a match, the second the gates are powered the killer appears directly behind me and hooks me until both gates are opened.
As killer, Ghostface.
I hate playing Ghostface, I don't find him fun at all and his stalking is just terrible. Add in terrible reveal mechanics, massive cooldowns to retry stalking, and the fact that his power is cancelled by vaguely aware survivors and it just makes for an awful experience.
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This achievement was hands down the worst to get.
In order to get it I ran Borrowed Time for MONTHS, and because killers still love to tunnel I found the only semi-consistent way to get hit was to be completely suicidal.
Run up as the killer is hooking the survivor, take a hit as soon as they're done and unhook in the blade-wipe animation.
It was legitimately the only way I found that consistently counted for the achievement and also motivated killers to hit me more than the unhooked person. It meant I was throwing hook stages incredibly fast, and I still had to feel like a massive dick when they didn't go for me.
I really wish they'd change it because I hate that there's such a MASSIVE achievement that encourages playing in a way that's detrimental to your own team.
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@Mochan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/782930#Comment_782930
I see everyone suggesting Iron Will to survivors to counter Spirit, so you know, it's fair game.
If anything I'd love to see Franklin's removed from the game. There aren't many perks more annoying than Franklin's. Nothing like bringing in a nice item and losing it or having it rendered unusable thanks to Franklin's.
Imagine if Survivors had a perk that let them disable a killer's add-ons.
And to those who say Franklin's is not a way to break the key...
Well yes, Franklin's may not break the key. But in many cases it's as good as gone, and oftentimes you forget where you got hit in the heat of the chase. The key is ridiculously hard to find, and many times even knowing where I got hit it's a challenge to find it. You can waste a lot of time searching for it.
It's a strong counter to any item and it's more than enough counter play for the key, and there are other ways to counterplay against the key. I should know, I bring keys a lot and I get tunneled the crap out for it. Killers just need to be attentive in the lobby, that's what you have the lobby for right?
And you can notice survivors carrying keys in the game if they fished it out of a chest. I have noticed fellow survivors with the key at times and was surprised because they didn't have it in the lobby.
I just find this talk of breaking survivor items hilarious, I mean what if we could break Trapper's traps and they don't regenerate? This tips the game way too much in favor of killers again. Keys are the last good item Survivors have left that haven't been put through the nerf bat wringer.
And all this while Ebony Moris are still 100% unchallenged? Sorry, but I gotta take a stand.
Franklin's is not a magical solution to how unbalanced keys are. Even if we're going to shove our head where the sun doesn't shine and pretend survivors just ignore where they drop the key, it isn't feasible to bring a perk every match IN CASE they're running Plunderer's.
If you loot chests with Plunderer's it's pretty damn close to 50/50 if you get a key each match. There's no way to adjust your perks to a survivor whipping one out, there's no counterplay to a key besides tunneling someone to death for having one and crossing your fingers and hoping nobody else picks it up off their corpse. (Especially when SWF can say in comms "Hey, there's a key where I died!")
This isn't about "breaking survivor items." Keys should be improved in their active ability, and made into an actual usable item that helps through a match, rather than the 5-10 second use jokes with no ability outside of add ons. This is about fixing fundamentally broken aspects of the game.
And again, I'm not saying "nerf keys and leave moris how they are." I think they both have the exact same issue of ending games far too early, and unjustly losing other players huge amounts of points and emblems for almost no effort.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/782792#Comment_782792
Because if the Killer saw that you had the Key in the lobby and then sees that you don't, then they know that you have hidden the Key somewhere. Unless you wasted time scouring the map for a good hiding spot, then it is safe to assume that the Key is not too far from where you found them (since they are likely going to go to the closest gen from where they dropped the Key, for the sake of not wasting time). The Killer doesn't have to go out of their way to find the Key until it is either necessary or safe to do so.
Ok so instead of everyone escaping because a key opens the hatch, everyone escapes because you have to spend 20 minutes searching every centimeter of the map for the tiniest, hardest to see model in the game that could be literally anywhere.
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@Nobsyde said:
I don't like the "all keys open hatch" and "all generators need to be powered to use the key" changes, but I understand the reasoning behind it.
Instead what is very interesting is the change between time until the hatch closes to how many survivors use the hatch. One possible change would be:
- Dull key: the hatch opens for one survivor only, then stays closed for 20 seconds no matter what (to prevent a double escape if only two survivors remain)
- Skeleton key: exactly like dull key if there's still at least 1 generator left (or maybe make it usable for 2 survivors instead of just 1). When all generators are powered, the hatch stays open for 30 seconds (as it is now, for achievement purposes).
Plus, if it's not already like this, prevent skeleton keys spawning in chests if you don't have special perks.
It would definitely be an option, limit it to one person until the end of the match.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/782774#Comment_782774
If a Survivor wishes, they can always hide the Key to pick up later, hoping the Killer does not find it by chance. That seems like a way to sorta play around that.
So then how is that any better balance-wise than keys now? It has all the exact same issues except you have to walk for 5 extra seconds to grab the key out of the bush next to your spawn point.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/782771#Comment_782771
You are very much right about the problem with keys, but I think that your suggestion is a biiiiiit too heavyhanded?
How would you feel if the Killer had the ability to break a Key?
I'd feel like there'd NEVER be a reason to bring a key at all, because they're so inherently broken that no killer would leave one unbroken. It would just be 7000 bloodpoints I'm never getting back.
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@TAG said:
As for OP's, eeeeeehhhhhhh? When they stop being good at being a key, why even make them keys to begin with?
The only issue with keys is that they end games prematurely with basically no requirement except surviving the first 2 minutes.
I don't see any way they could be balanced without removing the ability to cheese it out the hatch halfway through a match.
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@Tensor said:
More survivor type nerfs from the killer forums I see
Only if you view it through completely biased eyes.
I think both keys and moris need to be changed because they both have basically the same issues. This is just a suggestion for keys.
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Yeah 15 seconds is pathetic, unless they actually jump out of a locker directly in front of you there's 0 threat from Iron Maiden.
It could really do with a buff to the duration at the very least.
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I never see Jakes doing anything, as both killer and survivor. They just seem to lurk around the map existing.