Withered8
Withered8
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@sad_killer_main said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1661282#Comment_1661282
Something needed to be done about the copy pasted survivor builds and the gen rush tho.
I'm completely happy about the metagame.
It's not like killer builds were anymore variant than survivor ones lets be real. Mostly pops and bbq's before this with the occasional different builds, not that i had a problem with it or anything.
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@Deadeye said:
Kinda disagree with some points. I think noone will point at ruin, I think it is pretty clear that Undying is the problem. There is already enough discussion about Undying and how to fix it.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1661297#Comment_1661297
I run that on Bubba as well and works fine. It is not only high mobility.
And btw there is an effective counter, not that super promising to be able to outplay or easy to handle, but really helpful: Stack with 2 people on gens. The killer most likely will not run Discordance as well, and the killer will have a hard time to get there and protect it, so it goes below 70% again. Just keep both survivors pushing the gen by on/off to keep the progress until someone is hit, one survivor pulling the killer while the other goes back to the gen, alternating. That will give the other 2 survivors some free time to progress another gen. The killer cannot protect 2 gens with Tinkerer.
Another effective counter, which is way easier: start to bring maps or Hunch. Or both. If you tend to bring medkits for healing that is replaced by the map, bring a healing perk as well. Ruin/Undying killers probably tunnel less, so you don't need DS/Unbreakable. Just in case this is the case
Yea it sounds like a good strategy in theory but how easy is it to really pull off unless ur in a strong swf? Remember one gen popping literalyl means nothing if the killer is still able to get downs.
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@Moundshroud said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1661324#Comment_1661324
Good question, and I've got an answer. They still require one more Generator than normal to power the gates. The game already accounts for games where only three people que up and it loads. It already requires them one less generator. Thus, a three man team would STILL need (5) rather than the (6) a four man team would need.
But far more likely is that a 3-Person SWF would just spend the time to get that 4th Player. 4v1 is better than 3v1 based on the force multiplier of the 5th Perk (Comms), i.e. the more eyes the more unbalanced passing the information around gets.
For the record, I believe the Solo Que should allow up to (2) people to enter the Lobby together. I don't think 2-Person SWF unbalance the game significantly enough to say a couple can't play together. I just think 3+ goes to their own Que and get balanced for it. Killers will be happy to play against Teams if the playing field is leveled.
Here's my argument/s when it comes to the balacne of swf though. If swf is heavily nerfed, then what challenge is really left for killer anymore? As a killer main, i only play to vs good swfs and learn from them as well as have a challenge. I get so bored vsing bad teams now that i dodge most teams unless they look like a swf or i know there are decenet players. Why? Because vsing solo q players and bad swfs is just an easy stomp and it's no fun.
Let's also be real, how often do you actually come across a good swf? What happens to the casual swfs? Do they just get stomped on now for wanting to have fun and chillout in the game? Most swfs i know play for chases and fun moments and hardly ever sweat.
Let's also remember that good swfs aren't unbeatable these days, thats a mentality maintained from old dbd where this statement was true, but the game is far more balanced now. If your good with nurse, spirit, freddy, huntress, oni, blight, and potentially plague, pyramid head and a few others, you should be able to destroy good swfs 80% of the time. Yea you might not be as consistent with weaker killers but its gotta stop somewhere right? Imagine if every killer could beat the best team in the world? Not exactly balanced then is it.
I think that the issue is more with killer strength differences and the gap between weak and strong killers. Strong killers will generally have no problem with a swf. Weak killers will struggle hard.
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@Kebek said:
It would be extremely dumb to nerf only viable hex build ever. And it only works if killer is applying pressure on gens while also beiing quite easily cleansed if RNG deems it.
If they do nerf new killer meta after very short time leaving stale survivor meta the same for years, it will be extremely hypocritical of them.
There are many survivor metas which come and go right? Mettle of Man? Selfcare?
I think hex perks are just dumb in general as they bascially reward good rng and not the skill of survivors and killers. The reason i actually like the pop bbq meta however is that it requires effort on the killers part and can be countered by survivors. Every counter to undying/ruin is either waste 2-3 minutes at the start searchiing for totems or force gens at a tourny swf rate.
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@OmegaXII said:
If it's gonna get nerf anyway, then i would play it every game because.. why the hell not?
I personally don't think it needs nerf. A single map can destroy this build in first 2 or 3 mins, leaving the killer with 2 perks.
And i think this combo is healthy for the game. It encourages killer NOT to camp and tunnel, which is what survivors want too.
It doesn't encourage it anymore than pop/bbq does, which is way healthier in my opinion.
The problem with this build is that it also encourages you to basically drop any chase where you cant use tinkerer and get a free down from it. What is the point of stealth killers when you can run a perk on high mobility killers which just does the job ten times better?
Also yes being jumped at on gens can be fun but when you've literally got every second killer doing it it gets hella boring just waiting for them to come and mess ur gen over.
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@Moundshroud said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/196144/the-stupidest-part-about-ruin-undying-tinkerer
Yes, you will have to just suck it up. For the record, I prefer Hex: Undying, Hex: Ruin, and Surveillance. I find it far more effective than Tinkerer. The fact is the SWF have turned the Gen-Rush into a chasm of problems, and the DEV are trying to answer it with Perks to return balance. While I think this effort will fail, ultimately, and SWF and Solo will have to be in their own Ques, a temporary fix is better than no fix. I assure you that plenty of Survivors are adapting to the Meta Shift Crisis and are busily doing those Bones and still managing to defeat the Killer.
The problem with it is that it makes strong killers who have great mobility and map pressure even stronger, whilst not giving as much benefits to slower killers. Have you played against a nurse or blight with this build? It's literally unstoppable unless ur in a stacked swf or the killer is bad. I know gens can sometimes be fast especially in swfs but u gotta remember if they balanced gen speeds at base for good swfs, can you imagine the effects it would have on solo p[layers, casual swfs and killers with already good slowdown perks?
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@PleassBuiltInNoed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1648389#Comment_1648389
yes i use it on legion because you can stab everyone all the time and that icon is very annoying to have on your screen as survivor, but i dont think buff will make them care much, people dont heal against plague or legion because its either pointless or powers up the killer
so i dont think it will change much, even if it was 8% per stack games would last maybe a 1-2 minutes longer and thats assuming people wont group up on gens
if it slows the game down for a minute or two, then it’s already done an insane job, arguable corrupt level of game slowing.
You also gotta remember that currently thana really does nothing unless your playing a killer who prevents or makes healing insanely hardly. The new thana forces people to heal unless they wanna push through incredibly slow gen times. I don’t care if people heal and then try to gen rush me because they’ve already wasted so much time healing.
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@PleassBuiltInNoed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1648369#Comment_1648369
i basically play all killers, but now mostly blight and huntress and honestly there are better perks then sloppy butcher anyway
you buff the perk because you want people to use it and i say i wont use thana because it will still be useless even with 24% on gens
Well your right in that it probably wouldn’t be too useful for huntress and blight because they are very chase oriented killers, but think about the effects on plague, legion and other killers who injure people easily.
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647233#Comment_1647233
Survivors who know when to hold W and when to run to the nearest pallet are some of the smarter ones.
Go play a game on Midwich and tell me holding W isn't insanely strong in certain areas. If you and the survivor both chase in a straight line with the survivor having a 5 second headstart in can take upwards of a minute for 2 hits. That 15% speed does nothing if there's no way to cut the survivor off or use a power to catch up.
It’s strong but who plays the game to hold w unless you’ve watched soms sort of fun goose tutorial.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647456#Comment_1647456
When you refer to him as "PP head" it kind of gives off an air of bias to your argument.
Lmao that’s literally jut a nickname which many people give him. You think I’m gonna stop calling him that when he gets changed?
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@PleassBuiltInNoed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647454#Comment_1647454
sloppy doest work with many killers simply because of basic attack requirement which renders the perk useless
and yes i would like slower gens with thanatophobia but unless its at least 8% per injure its not gonna be worth it anyway
So you would rather heal speeds be 16% slower than gens 24%
What non m1 killer are you playing where ur rotating an getting people injured all the time? Seems pretty ineffective.
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@Zarathos said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647070#Comment_1647070
You need to hit your target for your ability to see use. A range limit is usually the trade off for ph. Tr trade is relatively negligible considering a 32 meter tr and a 48 tr means no difference since the heads up of 32 meters is more then enough time to set up your looping route. Shooting through walls suffer from a range disadvantage with add on's desperately required to go for midrange shots. His punishment attack cannot travel on surfaces like stairs unless it has a straight path through the ground or its a straight path. His wider collision mean's nothing if the warning of the impending attack is blatantly telegraphed on the ground. Go into a kyf with a good survivor player and test a only punishment PH see how easy it is to land the hit because the ownes is heavily on the survivor dodge you have no input on improving its speed via charging the attack. When you compare ph to huntress he inferior in nearly every way the only thing you got going for you is the ability to potentially ignore ds and 115% ms which isn't good enough.
Well you shouldn't be comparing them because that's where this whole argument gets caught up. PP heads power is more to help in chase rather than carry him in chase. Remember he can still do all the mindgames a normal 115 percent killer can but he has this extra ability. Huntress on the other hand relies on her hatchets and thus they need to be stronger, because she would be nothing without them. Can you imagine if pp head's attack was as strong as huntress's? Also just don't use ur power at long ranges its not hard to catch up when you are 115%.
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@PleassBuiltInNoed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1644828#Comment_1644828
they removed the healing speed, therefore if it will be at 6% its gonna still be worse because it wont affect healing speed
Like i said theres literally a perk called sloppy butcher if you want slower healing times for survivors.
Do you not want slower gens for thana?
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647225#Comment_1647225
Yeah, no. That isn't the case. Give me 7% extra speed and I will destroy almost every killer in the game, and I'm not even that good. The only reason I don't run Hope is because it's active when you don't need it.
And even then, even in this magical world where the killer only being 8% faster than survivors isn't a big deal... Hold-W.
Survivors who hold w dont know how to play the game and r extremely boring.
7% all game would be insane yes but its not all game and not every survivor which is the point.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647145#Comment_1647145
Pyramidhead. It takes forever to catch up when they're running around there.
Alrighty it can be frustrating but lets be honest, how often would this ever come into play? There is also bloodlust which only takes 15 seconds to proc.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647144#Comment_1647144
Only about 4 of those killers actually deny looping. The rest can simply use their power in loops. Don't confuse the two.
Yea but the point is that the fact that they can use their power in loops means that the haste affect rarely every becomes problematic for the killer.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647082#Comment_1647082
No I had a survivor get Hope and they made it all the way around dead dog saloon. At that point there's only 8% speed difference between you and the survivor.
Yea what killer were u playing.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647082#Comment_1647082
List all of the "antiloop killers" for me, if you will.
Nurse, Spirit, Freddy, Clown, Doctor, Hag, PP head, Deathslinger, Demogorgon, Blight and Huntress are what I would call hard anti loopers, in a sense that they pretty much always have their anti loop at disposal and it’s relatively effective or at least good at changing the way can be used.
Then there are antiloopers like oni, plague and trapper who may not be able to use their anitloop all the time but it is very effective.
Finally there are the killers who can use their power at loops sometimes and have a partial anti loop but mostly play loops as usually, like Billy, Pig, Leatherface, Myers, Legion and ghost face ( due to his ability to loose his terror radius and red light mid chase).
Only killer who I would argue has nothing at all in chase is wraith, who honestly idk why he’s still in this state at this point in the game and really desperately needs a change.
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@Zozzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647074#Comment_1647074
Again, literally none of that matters if survivors can easily avoid the hit.
That’s not true though. Not only have you still got the advantage of free hits at Aniston locks but there are many situations where you can use it well. Why don’t we just wait till these changes are released, play a lot of pp head and judge then. Remember he can still bait outside of windows and pallets.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1646279#Comment_1646279
Have you ever chased someone with the perk Hope? Or as one of the mirror Myers? Haste is one of the strongest effects in the game - it makes survivors almost as fast as killers while looping. As in, instead of 3 loops around a junk tile, they'll get 8-9, if not more.
Only on killers who don’t have an anti loop though, and lets face it most killers these days do.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647070#Comment_1647070
But its the survivors that compare him to Huntress when talking about his ability to cancel a ranged attack and go for an M1.
Yes it is apples to oranges though
He already had so many things going for him that the bait was just unnecessary. Also his counterplay is a different topic it’s not really to do with his strengths or whatever. I don’t care if you invent a nurse type killer as long as you can have fun and counter them like you can with nurse
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@Zozzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1645145#Comment_1645145
All meaningless when each shot gives an audio notification and a visual notification before the attack actually happens. the killers light is also shows where the attack will go at all times and if you keep out of it the attack will miss you.
He has no control over his movement while casting ROJ no strafe or reverse, and mouse sensitivity is destroyed and capped. His power is Z tier outside of animation locks and if you get hit by it out in the open you need to go back to r 20.
Like I’ve said numerous times, his power yes is not as good as someone like huntress but remember how many more things he has going for him than her. 115% movement speed, smaller terror radius, unlimited shots AND ability to shoot through walls meaning he doesn’t suffer from map rng as much.. Also can you not say the same about the ability to dodge a huntress attack? Yes she doesn’t have limited horizontal movement but I would say this is a small drawback and a small price to pay for pyramid head considering he has so many other benefits which huntress does not enjoy
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@Zarathos said:
The issue with current ph ranged attack is the wind up on the attack before it hits. Its extremely easy to evade. They need to up how fast the attacl fires off it already has extremly awkward movement so correcting the attack left or right is limited.
Its kinda inescapable to point out how pyramid head despite a lower range is just an inferior huntress since currently has now way to speed up the punishment attack animation.
I'd say ph is doomed to be a pubstomper killer. Good for styling on weaker survivor players. You can argue its skillful but that dosent quite add up if theres no way to get the attack to connect vs competent survivors.
You shouldn’t be comparing pyramids attack to huntresses though. You wanna know why? Pyramid head has a smaller terrors radius, has another whole ability and is 115% movement speed. Could u imagine if his power was as strong as huntress but he kept these additional benefits which huntres doesn’t have? Just because a killer is missing a few things doesn’t automatically mean they are bad or worse than another killer. Why don’t you look at some of the things his power alone has over huntress: Ability to shoot through walls, ability to move faster than survivors when charging it and a slightly larger collision box.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1645145#Comment_1645145
Just a slight step to the side can completely negate the attack, and yeah he has unlimited shots but he also has limited range and limited turning.
It's apples to oranges though huntress was designed with hatchets as her primary attack, PH not so much.
Yea that’s the thing I honestly think comparing these two killers doesn’t work. Not only because pp head is 115% AND has a whole other, but both attacks work differently and have their own strengths and weaknesses.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1643939#Comment_1643939
Except hatchets travel almost instantly when fully charged, have a wide hitbox and can be freely aimed. Pyramidhead turns like a shopping cart, has a very thin hitbox on POTD, and the attack is telegraphed and takes a second to travel towards the end of it.
Hence why it's junk and people relied on the bait. They could have tinkered with any one of those issues and instead they focused on.....the cooldown. Well that's great now you can spam attacks all day as the survivor takes a slight step to the left or right to completely avoid your attack.
As others have said they listened to feedback sure but they definitely only listened to feedback from one side.
Ph’s attack is far wider than a huntress hatchet. He has unlimited shots. He is the only killer who can move faster than survivors with a ranged or speed attack expect for deathslinger and his shot really isn’t that reactable, you have to preemptively dodge at some point. 1v1 me as pyramid head and let’s see how many shots you can truly dodge.
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@Kumnut768 said:
i do genuinely believe i see more entitled killers now than i do survivors
It’s because killers hav been used to getting consistent buffs since the release of dbd, and fairly since back then, killer was incredibly weak. But the games changed now and it is far more balanced, some killers however still have the mentality as if it is 2016 dbd and survivors deserve only nerfs and never buffs and that a killer nerf means the game is survivor sided.
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@PleassBuiltInNoed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1643611#Comment_1643611
well you cant really blame person that knows the devs and what they did and are doing all the time
i expect the % to be at like 5-6% so it will be even more useless
It will be more useless because it will be better? I’m sorry what? Did I read that right! Is 6% not better than 4%? Come on dude. Who actually used thana to slow down healing speeds, there’s literally a perk called sloppy butcher for that.
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@ElementDoom said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1643922#Comment_1643922
Robot reflexes are an exaggeration. It's very possible to dodge just the shockwave on command if you're anticipating it. I've seen it done and I've done it. Even if your reflexes aren't good enough to dodge the red line I'm pretty sure anyone can see which direction he's facing at the start of the animation and not stand there. There is no excuse to be hit by that attack assuming you have line of sight and aren't stuck in an animation.
So you're left with a chase power that can only be used in doorways or when survivors have lost line of sight and aren't fast enough to dodge the neon red "don't stand here" sign. That sounds like a niche power to say the least.
Let me give you an example of how you can use it. You’re running around the side of a short wall jungle gym and the survivor is runnin back towards the pallet. You put you’re sword in the ground and they preemptively dodge but you wait and then use the attack as they then go back in a straight line towards the pallet.
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@Hopesfall said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1643910#Comment_1643910
A "killer or two"?
Nurse -> Spirit -> Freddy -> Billy -> PH
All within the last year..
Nurse spirit and Freddy are literally the three strongest killers in the game, so kinda makes sense they got nerfs. The nerfs these killers got didn’t affect anyone who was half decent with them and Freddy is still just as mindless as ever. PH change yet again won’t affect those good at him. These are all QoL changes which won’t affect good killers. Yes I disagree with Billy’s cool down being a billy main, but his addons did get changed for the better.
Now let’s see what killers have been buffed eh?
Doctor, Leatherface, Plague, Trapper, you get my point?
kilers get both buffed and nerfed. All for balance reasons.
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@Hopesfall said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1643784#Comment_1643784
So define where a "smartly" use of his power is going to be? In an open field where the survivor can see the tracks and has 3 secs to doge it? At a loop where the survivor can completely see PH, essentially the same as being in the open in regards to reaction time.
So.. how should a PH player use their power that would placate you?
Let me guess, by missing every shot so you'll feel good about yourself.
Clearly you don’t understand the changes. He still moves faster while he has his sword in the ground and survivors still need to dodge preemptively so in a sens she still has some form of bait. The difference is you now have to hit with your power like you would when baiting with huntress rather than just going for the m1
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@ElementDoom said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1643600#Comment_1643600
The difference being that a good nurse can actually control when she lands her hits. Pyramid head's attack has a huge red "I'm about to do damage here" indicator attached to it. You'd have to be brain damaged to get hit by it outside of an animation lock. PotD is about to become the most unreliable attack in the game.
But hey at least he can still waste time trying to force survivors into torment so he can send them across the map for a free rescue right?
There’s a very short period between the indicator and the actual damage however, only dodgsble if you have robot reflexes. You can also use it in narrow places or when survivors go through a narrow gap like a doorway etc and guarantee a hit if you know what ur doing. Hardly say his power is unusable.
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@Hopesfall said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1643087#Comment_1643087
and after that? Freddy? then?
it's just a cycle of "nerf this killer" with survivors
Do you not realise that survivors get nerfed at the same time? And that killers get buffs as well? Dude just because a killer or two gets nerfed doesn’t mean that the devs are just listening to survivors. Think about how many nerfs survivors have gotten over the years. It’s a two way thing.
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@EvilJoshy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1643154#Comment_1643154
Every rework is to make the game balanced? Were you around for patch 1.9.2? The introduction of MoM? The nurse add on rework that also turned into a base kit nerf? The billy rework virtually no one asked for? All you have to do is look at the patch history and see these devs haven't a clue what they are doing.
Have YOU looked at the patch history? Want me to go through just some of the survivor nerfs? DS nerf, map size nerf, infinite’s removal, double pallets removal, pallet vaccuum removal, loops nerf, maps like Hawkins and dead dawg sallooon introduced, not one weak killer released legion, spirit, nurse still capable of decimating teams, MoM nerf, exhaustion introduction, exhaustion nerf again, balanced landing nerf, double windows jungle gym removal, you see where this is going right?
The devs make changes for balance reasons, not because they favour one side over the over. Just because one side gets a nerf, doesn’t mean that the devs don’t care about them. There are arguable many things on both sides which need changing, and using the argument that survivors are stronger than killers thus killers don’t need nerfs is just bs.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1642996#Comment_1642996
Lmao. I love this rank 15 way of looking at the game.
Everyone with a lot of experience has always said that at the moment theres pretty much only Nurse and Spirit that are viable at the highest level. Maybe some would throw Hag or Billy in there but thats about it.
I mean we just saw a tournament with players with thousands of hours where all the “op” killers like Doctor, Freddy and even PH got completely crapped on, even Spirit was made to look weak, but sure lets ignore all evidence and claim they’re just overpowered and only exist so bad players can win.
Dude it’s a tournament. Can you imagine if weak killers could beat some of the best teams in the game? Doesn’t make legitimate sense, if you consider the repercussions it would have on strong killer’s ability to beat teams.
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@Lufanati said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1638381#Comment_1638381
Because it's impossible to dodge a skilled nurse or doctor on reaction? You're relying on deadhard or them to miss. Lol, it's pretty obvious.
Blight has a little more counterplay at loops, but once you have to leave, it's entirely in his hands, like the other situations.
vsing a doctor isn’t about dodging. This is why people think he’s so strong because no one knows how to play vs him. Your meant to change your route and take unique pathing if he shocks u. For example of he shocks you at a short wall jungle as your going for the window, either go around the outskirts and potentially take the window backwards or run around straight to the pallet like you would with huntrsss or demo.
A good nurse yes is very hard to stay away from, but there are many things you can still do to her, it’s jjudt that good nurses know how to read survivors very well. You’ve gotta make ur pathing super unique and block line of sight as much as possible, make her job harder.
its hot hard to get away from blights power outside of loops. If he dashes at you, find an obstacle to run around which he can’t get around, cars are a good example. I don’t think it’s really fair to say there’s no cointerpkay to blight this early, you’ve just got to learn. He’s not easy like an m1 killer, try different strategies.
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@MeltingPenguins said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1638368#Comment_1638368
that's the gameplay a lot of people who claim deathslinger and PH have no counterplay are calling for, proclaiming it (with an addition of perma-looping) to be 'the most fun' and 'what the game's intended as'...
Yea I think that’s dumb. If you want counter play on a killer that involves unique movement and knowledge, look at oni’s power, blight, huntress and killers like that who really change up the style of the game and how running killers works.
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Explain how nurse doesn't have counterplay.
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@Seiko300 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1638347#Comment_1638347
I'll have to disagree and say that Freddy was put under the most intense scrutiny during his rework, they changed him from the ground up on a fundamental level that completely altered how his power function in almost every way yet still remained true to his character. What made him a poor killer was very closely examined and explored, his original incarnation was flawed at the most basic level though the concept on paper may have been interesting.
There's a reason that Freddy was reworked to such a scale, the community asked for the change and the developers delivered. The mere notion of re-implementing any aspects of old Freddy into modern Freddy let alone the idea of "taking old Freddy, fix his bugs, and slap on the live version of Dream projection" as if that will make him any better is completely and utterly asinine in every sense of the word.
And I can't believe I have to say this because it's so obvious: Not being able to hit survivors is crippling. I don't mean to be rude, but you have to be out of your mind to seriously believe that this and most of everything else that you're suggesting is anywhere near a good idea let alone superior in-design to modern Freddy.
Most importantly: The Code from Old Freddy does not exist. When the rework went through, this code was deleted, we know this because some few old-version Freddy sympathizers asked the devs if they could keep both the new and old version of Freddy and the short answer was no. One of the cited reasons was along these lines if I'm not mistaken, so long story short unless the devs suddenly have a change of heart and decided to re-animate, re-code, and re-program old Freddy back into new Freddy there is no hope for you or anybody else to ever see old Freddy ever again. Thank God and good riddance.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1638407#Comment_1638407
She is arguably the most poorly designed killer out of the entire current roster. You want an example of bad design @Bard ? Look no further than the Plague.
Don't even get me started, I've written the equivalent of an entire paper on the Plague before, but I'll boil it down for you now to a simple, universal, and well-understood concept that has been repeatedly proven throughout Dead By Daylight's history: Passive is not fun.
Ironically enough, this standard was actually established from the Freddy Rework, Killers had been released before Freddy who had passive powers or passive aspects to their powers, but Freddy's original incarnation pushed this idea to its limit and breaking point forcing a change from the devs because of how terrible it was. Both in regards to it not being fun for killer "Oh man, I get to stand here for 6 seconds and wait until a survivor falls asleep! (Is this what it feels like to be skillful?)" or survivor "Great, I'm asleep and now this Generator is going to take me 10 years to finish, here's hoping a skillcheck pops up soon..." and how poor the ability was from a viability standpoint. With no mobility, no chase potential (being purely an M1 killer), and really nothing of significance or consequence in his kit except for massive slowdown (not interesting) and universal aura reading (not skillful) old Freddy was terrible all around.
The devs since the Freddy rework have followed up on this idea changing some of the most prevalent passive aspects of the game at the time. This includes runner-up for most passive ability: The Doctor, who was also reworked, and the then infamous but-now-a-thing-of-the-past Hex: Ruin rework. More examples can be found but these are some of the most well known, yet despite this there are still killers that exist in today's modern version of the game that are very obviously at fault of passive abilities.
Introducing The Plague (and the Pig!)
Coming in at third place behind the Doctor and Freddy the Plague undoubtedly has a power that is nearly completely passive (and I'll try to wrap this up quickly to stop myself from ranting, I've already written more than I intended to). The problem with her power is it puts the survivor in an un-winnable situation (I use this term loosely, not to describe the match overall but the situation within that match specifically), presenting the survivor with the illusion of a choice but in reality neither option available to them is an appealing one and neither one truly benefits them.
Regardless of the choice which I'll get to in a moment, there is absolutely no counter-play provided to the survivor to avoid her ability. Getting the tiniest bit of Vile Purge on a Survivor immediately means they're sick, there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop the progression of the illness. Realistically speaking the Plague doesn't have to continue chasing that survivor, she doesn't even need to infect them completely, getting the tiniest bit on them means the "timer" has started and eventually at some point during the match they will become broken and injured. No perk, no item, no strat, can stop this from happening, and it's not like this is difficult for the Plague to do, of all the ranged killers she is by far the easiest to control in that she acts like a hose and you can literally spray and pray flicking your mouse from left to right across the entire screen and you'll probably hit somebody.
After that you're broken, and you're presented with that choice I was talking about earlier- either you submit and cleanse yourself with one of the many the Pools of Devotion scattered across the map and give the Plague access to the singlehandedly most aggressive and powerful damaging ability out of the entire killer roster, or you don't cleanse and you remain broken. For the entirety of the match, permanently injured.
At the most basic level this is simply and objectively not fun, for either role. A survivor is placed in an un-winnable situation where neither choice he/she makes really matters, both of them are bad for them and good for the killer, but the killer, the Plague, at the same time is just an M1 killer. After she gets someone fully infected what does she do? She runs the tiles normally as an M1 killer, and like any M1 killer she can be looped to hell and back with zero tools at her disposal to deal with that. Relying purely on the her own skill to run tiles, or as others more pessimistically put it: for the survivor to make a mistake.
I say zero, because we all know the choice most survivors make. Most survivors, unless they are inexperienced or really just don't care and are willing to throw the match, won't cleanse. Which means the Plague is stuck with her one dumb passive ability and distinctly lacking the one fun aspect of her power the Corrupt Purge which is her only redeeming quality- it is completely up to the survivors whether or not she gets access to her power. In other words, survivors are passively afflicted with illness, just so that the Plague can passively (potentially, it's not even a guarantee) get her corrupt purge. She isn't necessarily doing anything (much less anything particularly skillful) to get her corrupt purge, again, it doesn't matter if she gets them sick immediately or if the illness passively breaks that survivor, either way they will eventually become broken and either way they will eventually be confronted with the same un-winnable choice: to cleanse, or not to cleanse. That is the question.
This is why the Plague is my personally most despised and hated killer- both to play as and against. THAT is what bad design looks like.
And really quick I'll force myself to contain this last bit to a paragraph because I did end up ranting: The Pig suffers from the exact same problem The Plague does now and that the Doctor and Freddy did before them, but only to a lesser degree, not as annoying or in your face. Her Reverse Bear Traps are completely passive, she puts one on the head of the survivor and that's it- from then on she has nothing to do with whether or not the survivor lives or dies by the bear trap. She has no control over when it activates, nor does she have any control over how long it stays on their heads, or anything else. The killer is not involved in that process at all, and that is the problem with passive abilities: the fun of Dead By Daylight comes in large part FROM the killer interacting with the survivor. This is a core fundamental truth of Dead By Daylight and its gameplay.
And it's also the reason why Old Freddy sucked, and why he'll never come back in any way, shape, form, or fashion. @Bard
You'd be deluded to think otherwise.
Thank you for coming to class today, I hope you took notes because there'll be a test next week on the content we covered here this week.
Ur right i do agree it is annoying that she negates quite a few amount of perks, which sucks, but i don't think there would really be a way to change this. Personally i don't mind it cause im not usually one to heal anyways.
Interesting point you raised about passiveness, yes i agree passive gameplay and slowdown is very annoying and i think the devs should try to avoid it as much as possible but i don't think its that big of an issue with plague and pig. First of all, you can do many thinks to delay her ability to vomit on you and really make her waste time trying to do so. Also remember it doesn't break you instantly, and yes you can rotate do you really want to be trying to spew on 4 survivors if they are all making sure that doing so is an incredibly hard job? No. I don't see what's wrong with the instadown part, because there are plenty of other killers out there who are instadown. I think it would be boring if it wasnt for her corrupt though. The fact that she starts with one fountain basically gives her the option to use it whenever she wants, which i think is a great design. As survivor, you have to debate whether you want to cleanse or not, which yes both options aren't great for you but are definitely playaroundable. I would honestly reccomend you just cleanse if you're decent at survivor. The fact that she looses her power if she gets stunned is what makes it balanced, and i enjoy being chased by corrupt plagues, because honestly its alot easier to avoid and deal with than people make it out to be. At the end of the day her passive isn't that great, it achieves something legion can easily do, and does take the ability to vomit on people. Legion is far more capable of getting people injured than plague.
For pig i think that it suits she has a passive slowdown. You've got to remember that these killers don't SOLELY rely on their passiveness and it isn't insanely strong like someone like freddy's and old doctors may have been. Pig not only has to get downs for this to work, but if she wants to put any pressure on those survivors, she's gotta catch people at the boxes otherwise they'll just get their trap of eventually, and although yes it does slow down, it's no where near the level of freddy's considering the effort he requires for his slowdown, none.
Yes although these killers do have passive slowdown, i think it works fine for them because not only can it be avoided and takes setting up/effort to use, it is no where near the strength of freddy's and having just a couple of killers with a weaker passive ability isn't that bad. The problem is when you get freddy style passiveness which requires no skill and has no downside.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1638330#Comment_1638330
The same can be said for literally any killer, so why even bother saying it at all.
Any killer on that list or in general? Nurse has far more counterplay than spirit, deathslinger, pp head and freddy.
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@Seiko300 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1638316#Comment_1638316
^
Freddy might have some issues, but the idea that he isn't skillful and "boring" is massively blown out of proportion. Even while asleep in the dream realm you can still loop a Freddy through his snares or if you've actually been paying attention to dream pallets. While you're awake he's a pure M1 killer with a teleport to generators that has a decent cooldown, so constantly waking yourself up (whether to remember pallet locations or avoid Dream Snares) is vital against the killer. Thankfully survivors have numerous ways to wake themselves up, running across the map, waking each other up (although you probably only want to do this once or twice), or failing a skillcheck.
I'm slightly annoyed at the people who insist Freddy requires another major (or at least heavy duty) rework, most all this issues about his lack of skill or just "being boring" are all perceived and / or opinion based. They also serve as a massive disservice to the incredible job the dev team did reworking a character that originally WAS boring and nowhere near consistently viably playable (the higher the rank you go). There absolutely is a skill cap with Freddy and there's a limit to what you can do with him, unlike characters like Spirit, Nurse, or even somebody like Huntress, the built in limitations already set into his kit keep him fairly balanced and I don't buy this idea that he is broken, or even poorly designed for a second.
ESPECIALLY when there are killers that ACTUALLY are in desperate need for reworks and changes. Clown first and foremost Legion, Pig, Plague, you could argue Myers needs a little bit of love to push him a bit further, you could argue Spirit needs a bit of attention to be toned down, arguments can be made that characters like Deathslinger and Pyramid Head may need some tweaking to their fundamentals and base mechanics because these characters (in theory [as opposed to in practice]) are hypothetically broken in chases. It'd be nice to see Trapper buffs, it'd be nice to see Wraith buffs, something has got to be done about Demogorgon because I haven't seen one in like 4 months and other players report a similar trend of a distinct lack of Demo, etc. so on and so forth.
Freddy (especially by comparison) does not need changes.
Plague? What’s wrong with her?
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Camping with hag is a play style though. A play style which any killer can adopt, it’s just that it’s easier for hag. I wouldn’t say being zoned and mindlessly running around is an interactive chase.
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@CalamityJane said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1635386#Comment_1635386
Definitely. Playing Deathslinger is the best way to learn to counter one. You recognise those points where the Slinger is most likely to shoot at you; when you're heading towards a window or pallet, running along a long wall. That's where as survivor it's your job to be less predictable so that he either misses, or doesn't feel confident to tak the shot at all.
One miss as Deathslinger buys you a lot of ground if you just hold M1 because he HAS to reload, and he doesn't catch up as fast as other killers.
Also it's very similar to Nurse, you have to learn to not be predictably unpredictable. Do you double back every time against a Nurse? She's gonna learn and not overshoot the blink. Do you keep trying to fake a window against Deathslinger? He's gonna learn and not shoot.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1635961#Comment_1635961
Personally I see it more as it's a killer that you have to learn to play against specifically, the "standard" rules don't apply. It's the same as Huntress, Nurse, Spirit, etc. Most people are usually fine with that, but then Scott comes out saying "NO COUNTERPLAY" and everyone just parrots that without thinking, because now there's a reason that's entirely not their own fault to hate the killer.
You know you can just wait for an animation look before you shoot someone through a window right? If your preemptively shooting then you rlly don’t know how to play him.
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@Lufanati said:
if Deathslinger did have counterplay within the chase, he'd just be dogshit. That's just kinda the way of the game. He's slow, has no secondary power or any sort of utility.
He's not the only killer with little to no counterplay within the chase anyways. A good nurse, a good spirit, a good blight, a good pyramidhead, even a good doctor using the range add-ons, they'll all down you pretty much no matter what you do, and there powers have other uses to boot.
If deathslinger's chase was nerfed, he'd need substantial buffs in other areas to avoid falling to the bottom of the tier list. He'd be like clown. A power that's moderately useful in chases, but serves no other purpose. It simply isn't enough to make a viable, or balanced, killer.
there is plenty of counter play to nurse, blight and doc. Explain how there isn’t
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@Leachy_Jr said:
All the arguments about deathslinger boils down to whether you think a 50/50 is counterplay or not. I think survivors should actually have a chance to be downed so I'm fine with the 50/50.
Some people will say a good deathslinger wont miss but I can tell you from a slinger main standpoint that it is total BS and there is no situation where a slinger can hit EVERY shot.
If you’re missing shots consistently as a deathslinger main then you obviously haven’t learnt to just not shoot. Then you get the easy m1. Not very hard.
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@MeltingPenguins said:
I've only seen people complain he has no counterplay when they try to apply the same 'counterplay' as they do to killers that don't have a speargun... like, looping around low obstacles, running away in a straight line etc...
OP has a very good point, and gen speed is a counterplay as it's part of a strategy... there's a reason why 3genning is a thing survivors try to avoid.
Who plays survivor to do gens though or hold w. If you do then that’s honestly just sad.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
The trick is to throw pallets earlier then normal. They have to anticipate when you'll throw the pallet to shock you so you just throw it a loop earlier
If they try to shock you too soon you can get another loop in because of the slowdown he recieves
You can also take alternate pathing such as running around another side or obstacle instead of through the pallet.
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@WalkedMoss92 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1634522#Comment_1634522
He also has the ability to shock everyone around him at the same time to see where everyone is at. It's so annoying, I could be I unspotted the entire game and be doing gens but he can still find me in seconds because of that stupid power.
Don’t hide, learn how to loop. His power is about location.
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@Zozzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/193363/the-flaw-of-the-4v1-argument
What stops you from splitting gens against every killer? We WoN't BeCauSe We cANn HavE "FUN" at the full expense and frustration of the killer player, and if things go south for your swf you always have the option to focus gens and get out.
You can't balance the game around randoms sitting in a corner playing with themselves and just shrug off what swf groups (and solo players that know what they are doing) can do.
The only killers you will truly feel frustrated with because there’s nothing more you can do are low tier ones, which btw are slowly being eliminated and buffed. Any time you loose with a mid-high tier you can usually watch over your gameplay and notice many mistakes and ways to improve your gameplay. I hate how ppl jump to conclusions when they can’t win a game or two.
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@MadLordJack said:
The game is a 4v1 and that should always be kept in mind. 4 solo's Vs 1 killer is still a 4v1, as the occasional solo deathsquad I've participated in has proven. That's not to say that the 4v1 argument is particularly... I don't even have the vocabulary to describe how stupidly it can be applied, but the short version is that people saying that the 4v1 justifies Slinger, Nurse, Spirit and PH are bonkers. The 4v1 justifies killers like Oni, Billy, Plague and Blight: snowballers and mobility killers, not the your-skill-doesnt-matter killers.
I’d take nurse off that list. Unless the nurse is actually insane and god tier, there are many ways to prevent going down to one and last for minutes in chase.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1633537#Comment_1633537
Oh so you rather not chase on those because they are like maze runner type tiles. Fair enough to me they are easier to mindgame.
Yea i could see why they might be easier to mindgame but so often you just loose survivors and it annoys me lol. Give me a jungle jum or shack thanks