WilliamSN
WilliamSN
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514768#Comment_3514768
Good points.
It's just killer will never stop complaining about survivor strategies.
Survivors were staying injured before CoH come-out and DH was super meta.
Killers: Staying injured is so safe, survivors has not another objective. They are doing only gens.
BHVR added Boons to game for give survivors another objective. Now CoH was super meta and survivors was wasting a lot time to bless totems and heals.
Killers: Survivors are always full health. We have no pressure on them. Hitting them is pointless because they will heal.
BHVR nerfed CoH and medkits to ground and killed Dead Hard for make staying injured even more risky. Sloppy Butcher buffed for make healing even worse. After these Adrenaline and Ressilience is now meta perks. Survivors are focusing on gens even more for not waste time with healing.
Killers: Survivors are staying injured and focusing on gens. Nobody is healing.
They will never stop to complain tho. Unless BHVR decide to make survivors start trial on hooks. I am sure someone will complain about 4% chance is so high and rewarding.
Yeah you're right, bhvr nerfed healing because it made injuries unbelievably safe. Got hit? Run to the COH safezone and heal backup in 8s or less!
About to get hit again? E.
The self healing nerfs were done to increase the length of the match without making gens longer
Sadly developer oversight forgot that "while injured" perks actively discourage survivors from healing and make the injured state a desirable effect.
I'd rather MFT + resi only work while healthy, that way you're rewarded with good effects aslong as you play well and not when you mess up. And killers could counterplay it. (Resi needs to have the gen boost deleted though).
Got off the hook? Want the perk effects back? Waste 16s healing.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3516665#Comment_3516665
"Self-unhook, Sandbagging, afking and whatever else."
New players will try to kobe. Some players might run a luck build.
New players have no idea what's going on. Bad players might sandbag on accident. I've certainly sandbagged people on accident whilst trying to take a hit for them. Heck, I've sandbagged my friends on purpose because it was silly.
Some people have this thing called real-life responsibilities. They shouldn't be banned for attending to them.
You clearly want to ban people for not playing with you. In your hatred, you've damned many more people in this idea.
I highly doubt the percentage of people that have "real life emergencies" everyday is high enough to justify removing dc penalties.
A good majority of DCs are either because you got outplayed , went against a killer you don't like etc etc.
Just like you, other 4 people waited in Queue to get a dbd match , and its not reasonable to ruin the match for 4 other people because your ego got bruised over being outplayed.
A forfeit vote after one DC would be a healthier option as a whole. Entitled survivor gets the timeout, the other 4 players can requeue for a proper match.
If youre not having a good time in DBD, take the 30 minute timer to chill out instead of requeing to ruin another match.
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@SAF3TYRA1LS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3516842#Comment_3516842
Injured literally makes it so one hit and your dead..
Ah yes, you're in so much danger of being "1 hit" from the killer thats on the other side of the map chasing someone else.
Not to mention the terror radius giving you enough warning that the killer is approaching, hence giving you enough time to dart away to a safezone.
And this is just on basekit, there's other perks that either let you see killer aura or other information that lets you choose if you should run or stick the gen.
The 1 hit argument is flawed and non-applicable.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3516821#Comment_3516821
gotta love being called survivor main in some threads and killer main in others... just depends on what side I said anything about...
don't think resilience, adrenaline or hope are busted. at all.
mft is debatable, I think it would be fine if it was just the 3%. it should have an abvious tell so the killer can know it is there.
we might have very different definitions here... what would you say makes something "busted"?
Both mft resi and adren remove the "danger" of being injured and turn it into a desired effect.
Killer outplayed you and hit you? Ok you move 3% faster and can do gens 9% faster!
Its extremely dumb that the killer hitting a survivor is actually beneficial to the survivor.
The purpose of the injured state was to force survivors to need to heal and essentially waste the time equivalent of 32 charges.
Now being injured shaves 8~ charges from a gen.
Hope just guarantees survivors escape during endgame, when it takes over a minute just to get a single hit in while straight line chasing its blatantly obvious as to why hope is fundamentally busted.
If a perk wants to have a strong effect it needs to be time / token limited
If it wants to be infinite duration, it must have a relatively weak effect.
MFT, Resi , Hope, Adren aswell as a couple other survivor perks break the previous 2 statements.
Strong effects with no limits are fundamentally busted.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3516722#Comment_3516722
healing was nerfed, so this counters the sloppy butcher builds that are around.
and is strong in general.
Peak survivor main mental gymnastics.
Defending blatantly busted survivor perks that extend chases by an unhealthy amount with "well it counters the perk that makes me take 4s longer to heal"
Its not just "strong in general " , it's unbelievably busted in general.
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@CatnipLove said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3516033#Comment_3516033
Why do you assume that killers only run the strongest perks because survivors force them to? I'm pretty certain killers didn't need to run the glitched merciless storm but they used it constantly. Killer players want to win too, and will run the strongest perks they can, even if it's something completely broken like merciless storm was before BHVR fixed it.
The original post was about the lackluster amount of viable killer perks forcing a "meta"
But since you want to discuss that, sure.
At high mmr where survivors run mft+resi+adren+hope , killers will be FORCED to bring the strongest killer with strongest perks and addons available just in order to be able to tie.
If survivors complain about killer diversity, more often than not, they are responsible for pushing away the casual killer players due to the unhealthy survivor metas and youre forced to play vs more competitive nurse/blight/wesker players
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3516033#Comment_3516033
Everything survivors have and bring exists to counter a killer’s play style (typically camping, tunneling, or slugging).
Ah yes, my favorite counter perks... MFT,Resi,adren,hope
Countering... chasing.....?
Don't attempt to claim "survivor perks counter killer playstyles" because thats fundamentally untrue.
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@MikeyBoi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3515944#Comment_3515944
Oh couldn’t agree more! I played around 7 games of Swf yesterday and pretty much every single game it’s just corrrupt, sloppy, STBFL, Pop, deadlock and pain res. That’s it that’s all killers run are those perks.
There's a difference between killers being forced to run the strongest of the weakest perks
And survivors bringing the strongest of the busted perks.
What is a killer supposed to swap pop for? Eruption , that gives you 10% on a down IF you pre-kicked a gen? Jolt, for 8% IF you use M1s? SHPR where you only have 4 uses and sometimes you'll waste a token on a 10% gen?
I'd rather gamble pop sometimes being used on a 10% gen for the extra 3% , with the upside of sometimes knocking down 30% of an almost finished gen
Meanwhile survivors have multiple variations of endurance, busted combos like FTP+BU , MFT+Resi , multiple perks to slam gens with etc etc.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3515567#Comment_3515567
Your suggestion doesn't simply nerf the perk into being picked less, it dumpsters the perk. Injure a survivor, wait 30 seconds, no more MFT.
My suggestion? The 3% Haste stays, the endurance is dropped, haste effects no longer stack, and the user incurs a 5/10/15% repair speed penalty while injured.
That should encourage survivors to heal while keeping the perk strong, and also result in it being picked less at high mmr. That tackles the issue of it working with Resi and Hope.
The goal isn't to make it "get picked less" its to make the times it gets picked feel less opressive
30s is more than enough time to get value out of the perk. Thats 3.6 meters of extra distance that takes effect during the second part of chase , while SB gives you 6m just so you can make it to a loop.
MFTs haste is problematic. Loops were designed with 4m/s in mind and anything over that breaks the game.
Try chasing someone on haddonfield houses where they can break chase and reset BL with mft ans you'll see how broken the 3% is.
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@Pavel_Ch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/388012/what-if
will not help. people will just stop playing. everyone is sick of seeing every Wesker, Nurse, Blight game. if you are with random players, you will be beaten and mocked. that's why people try to leave such a match faster without a DC penalty
The same way killers are sick and tired of facing mft+resi+adren builds.
Higher tier killers / "unsavory tactics" are forced when every survivor is running the sweaty meta build of the month.
Killers being forced to endure unfun matches till the end, while survivors are able to hookicide to circumvent is DC penalty is ridiculous.
You queue up for a match , you play the match.
Thats akin to a football team conceding a goal in the first 10 minutes then deciding to go just leave and go home because "it isn't fuuun!11!!"
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514814#Comment_3514814
Somebody using SB incorrectly doesn't make it inferior to MFT. Same deal with Lithe. How is MFT any different to what you've just said in relation to ranged and mobility killers?
SB and Lithe both rob killers out of hits too, but you don't see anyone complaining about that.
Everything in this game that mildly inconveniences the killer can be considered undeserved. I, for one, hardly ever see the perk at mid MMR and when I do see it, the person running it still goes down in less than 30 seconds. So the only people suffering are those at high MMR.
People are running MFT+Resi because healing was nerfed across the board. That's kind of what happens when healing options get gutted and limited to "Hey, either bring a Medkit for one full heal or find a teammate to heal you." If they're going to remain injured, they may as well benefit from it. Not to mention the cherry ontop that is Sloppy.
Sure, SB and Lithe may be one-time chase extenders but if used when the survivor isn't injured, the killer either drops chase on that survivor altogether (Giving them time to get rid of the exhaustion) or it extends chase and "robs the killer" of hits.
It's not incorrect, it's literally what happens unless you want to walk for the whole match.
Congratulations you've identified the problem killer players have been pointing out.
The injured state went from something that was undesirable to something that actively buffs survivors and thats where the problem is.
If "mft only impacts high mmr lobbies" then surely it warrants a nerf , keeps fairness at high mmr without impacting low-mid mmr.
Bottom line is, it makes no sense for a killer to buff a survivor because they... hit them....
30s timer on mft and resi and there you go, perfectly balanced as all things should be.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514470#Comment_3514470
The healing nerfs went to far, which is obvious from the outcome.
Healing, as well as booning, were *good* things for the killer. Time spent looking for a totem, blessing, running to and from the boon aura, and even the ~22s spent self caring were all time spent not on gens.
The devs did exactly what killers asked for and 'made healing suck'. Killers seem to have had this vision of survivors running around blindly, looking for heals and wasting minutes of time for those same health states.
But that isn't the end result. The obvious outcome from 'making healing suck' is that survivors will stop doing it entirely. All that time spent setting up, running around, and healing is entirely on gens now. No one bothers setting up a boon at the start of the game, instead they just get on gens.
If 'gens fly' now, that's 100% the reason. The only secondary objective survivors have ever voluntarily chosen to go do was deleted completely.
As with dead hard and various other changes over the past year, killers got exactly the change they asked for, it just isn't what they wanted.
Healing nerfs were required because a survivor being able to solo heal 5 times from 1 medkit or infinite times with COH was by all intents and purposes, busted.
The goal of the Healing nerf was to encourage survivors to find a teammate to heal, hence both wasting 16s (32 charges not on gens) or in the case of a double heal, 32s (64 charges not on gens).
However developer oversight forgot that resillience existed, and as such survivors would rather stay injured and slam gens faster. Instead of injuries being bad, they became a survivor buff. (From a potential -64 charges, went to minimum of + 7.5 charges )
Now with MFT also buffing the injured state, survivors are even less inclined to heal up.
And that is the exact reason gens "fly". The injured state is no longer a negative, but a positive.
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Imo, a simple fix would be to make the exhaustion effect be something more than a survivor perk timer.
For example: for every 1s of exhaustion = 0.1% hindered / 10s = 1% / 20= 2% , etc.
Exhaustion perks still provide the chase extension its designed to, at the cost of being a tiny bit slower after that.
Would also prevent fearmonger and blood echo from being wasted perk slots incase nobody is running exhaustion perks.
If survivors claim a 3% haste isn't "big of a deal" surely a 3% hindered that decreases when you start recovering exhaustion isn't either.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514890#Comment_3514890
Camping and tunneling has been a huge issue since before MFT, that's just the most trending justification.
Before that it was CoH. Before that it was DH. Even when MFT gets nerfed for you, it will change nothing.
Camping and tunneling, is the easiest way to win, because you can't be mind gamed or outplayed. Its low risk, high reward. Plain and simple.
Why would someone work hard for a win, when they can stand around and count on bad teamwork to hand them a victory with only one hand on the controls.
Camping NEEDS to be addressed, because it completely removes a players ability to play the game, and that shouldn't be allowed. The vast majority of competitive games ban, or don't allow for spawn sniping, or hostage taking of players. The first player found by a camping killer literally doesn't get to play the game at all.
Yeah... because both COH and DH discouraged chasing or made it extremely time wasteful.
If you want killers to take chases, then being injured should be dangerous enough to warrant 2 survivors wasting time on heals.
If being injured gives you a 3% haste and 9% gen repair boost, then a killer hitting a survivor is effectively self sabotage.
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@RE91 said:
I have seen unfair amount of these kind of killers now.. Very sad and not so good for the DBD community.
Camping killers:
- Drastically slow down hook timer if killer is in presence (If killer is Next to hook X amount of time in X meters from the hook)
- Maybe even slow down killer movement and attack speed in the area because the one who comes to save you gets downed and the cycle continues.
- When exit gates are powered, the hook timer is normal
Tunneling has been very common now too, so maybe in case of tunneling the hook timer would be even greater if 4 survivors are alive and you are getting downed right after getting unhooked if no one else has been hooked before you?
I have 2k hours in the game and I feel like I am many times matched with killers who have around 300h playtime, who obviously are too focused on getting a kill right on the start.
I have had very good, hard and fair killers who do not camp or tunnel, and the matches are more than enjoyable, this is a case when I don't mind dying or losing as a team because it feels more of a win.
PS. Remove Skull merchant, or nerf the drones -1 active drone each gen activated or only 1-2 drone can be active at the same time
Before jumping into conclusions, we have to figure out *why* killers resort to those alledged tactics.
Killers currently are not incentivized to go for chases because of the MFT+Resi meta. Logically if you have 1 person on hook, another will come to save, so at most you only have 2 on gens. If you camp him to death you'll be in a 3 v 1 , catching someone again means only one person on gens.
However, if you go for a chase instead of defending hook, you'll get 3 people on gens with one of them repairing gens 9% faster while you waste time chasing an mft+resi surv.
When you put it into perspective like this its blatantly obvious the core issue is the injured state not being that big of a deal anymore so people don't waste time on heals , hence forcing killers to apply forced time waste.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514740#Comment_3514740
You do realize that there is a middle bracket of people who are neither low MMR nor high MMR. You are not necessarily one or the other. Low survivors are still learning how to play the game. That or they're just so attrociously bad at the game that they cannot possibly win.
The perk is killed, as in nobody will pick it, because 30 seconds for 3% haste while injured just isn't worth the perk slot when you can have Sprint Burst or Lithe and avoid being injured in the first place. Not to mention that the on-hit speed boost survivors get is 6.6m/s for 1.8s, and Overcome allows them to retain that for an extra 2 seconds, which makes it far better than 3% haste for 30 seconds.
I would think that you would understand how much more valuable it is at high mmr to be able to wait until the last possible second to sprint burst away from the killer, causing them to whiff and gaining distance, while still preserving a health state.
Yes... and you do realize that SB only works every 40 seconds, On the condition that it triggers once you press shift to run anywhere.
You SBd towards the gen that the killer is checking? You essentially don't have a perk.
Even if you do happen to have it on hand , the one time use at the start of a chase isn't that oppressive considering a ranged killer can just shoot you or mobility killers being able to catch up quickly while you're SBing to a tile.
Lithe, once again, 1 time use per chase on a vault condition, 40s cooldown. If you made the vault anyway the perk didn't rob the killer of a hit
Then theres MFT ... a *permanent 3% haste* because youre injured, allows you to make vaults and pallets you shouldn't have, creates infinites because it often breaks chase and resets bloodlust (haddonfield houses are especially bad when it comes to this). It robs killers out of hits and creates chase extensions you don't deserve because "perk goes brrr"
It will forever boggle my mind to see survivors claim SB and lithe are better than MFT, yet they all run MFT+Resi.
Either someones a liar and wants to defend their new busted toy or all survivor players have an ego problem and think they are godloopers
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514594#Comment_3514594
A timer that short would kill the perk. It'd have to be at least 90 seconds for it to remain a viable alternative to exhaustion perks.
Low MMR survivors spend half the game hiding in lockers and walk everywhere because scratch marks. A 10h killer hasn't even learned how to mindgame. Little Timmy with 10 hours is still going down in 15 seconds because he only knows how to run in a straight line.
Let's not pretend like low MMR survivors are somehow getting immense value out of MFT when they haven't even grasped the fundamentals of the game.
As for high MMR lobbies, the developers have stated they won't make changes that would make the game better for the 1% if it comes at the expense of the 99%. High MMR will always feel bad for that exact reason.
It would kill the perk for who?
If low-mid survivors can't last longer than 30s in chase or just hide, then the perk is doing nothing in its current state like you claim.
A high mmr survivor would still get value out of mft and extend a chase for 20+ seconds but wouldn't be able to be infinitely speed bosted and discourage staying perma injured for 9% gen speed from resi and 3% haste from mft.
Again, how is a balance change that only affects already good survivors be bad?
Its like removing blight hug tech, your average blight player wont be affected, meanwhile the best blights would feel the nerf.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514561#Comment_3514561
The perk does nothing for little timmy who can't loop the killer because they don't fundamentally understand how looping works. To be fair, little timmy with 10 hours is still learning how the game works.
A more apt comparison would be between a competent survivor of average skill who can already run the killer for multiple gens vs a top-tier survivor like Hens.
Keyword is "lobby"
A 1k hour survivor isn't going to run a 1k hour killer for "multiple gens".
However a 10h survivor vs a 10h killer will juice an extra couple of seconds just by holding W with MFT in a straight line. Coupled with the fact that even a badly thrown pallet can gain you 10-20 seconds vs a new killer, it isn't hard to juice a minute of chase in low mmr.
However in high mmr lobbies where both killer and survivor have optimized their loop/anti loop skill, being just 0.6m (every 5s with mft = 0.6m distance gain) ahead of where you would be is enough for you to drop a pallet in the killers face or make a vault you wouldn't have otherwise made.
Slap a 30s timer on mft and the low-mid mmr lobbies won't notice or feel the difference while high mmr lobbies won't feel horrible to play.
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@sulaiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514483#Comment_3514483
But Survivors have to sacrifice a health state already to use made for this, while hitting a survivor surly is no sacrifice to the killer, but somehting he wants to do. Meaning made for this activates when the survivor is already at a disadvantage, while Brutalitiy activates when the killer is already at the advantage.
There is a reason why self care even in the current state is still a top 10 perk, because for a lot of survivors, having just one health state is a risk. Yes, there are high skill survivors that can handle it, but the majority of people obviously cant.
Balancing around the low mmr players while neglecting the ramifications it has on the high mmr players is a fundamentally flawed argument.
If a perk is is "strong" to the point where it makes lil timmy with 10 hours on survivor able to last an extra minute in chase, you can imagine how ridiculously busted it is on a survivor with 5k hours, has all tiles memorized and can optimize and juice every loop.
In low mmr a 1 minute extension = half a gen done
In high mmr 1 minute means 3 gens popped and another halfway.
A perk that is balanced in a max mmr lobby will by default be balanced in low-mid mmr.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514011#Comment_3514011
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514015#Comment_3514015
I was talking about design of the perks, i never said if the perks are good or bad.
Also, don't come with the talk like all killer perks are bad. Killers have way more variety of builds and fun stuff to try out, thanks to different powers and sinergies. Thats what i do when playing killer.
I am so tired of seeing complaints about every single perk. Both sides have broken stuff.
MFT is 2 perks in one slot for some reason, yes the perk is kinda overtuned. There is no need for arguments that don't even make sense "Oh my god we are rewarding mistakes, what a crime", dude the game is full of mechanics that reward mistakes.
The game isn't fair, so enough of this self victimizing atitude.
Case and point, all of the best killer perks are good, because they give you free value for doing absolutely nothing, just like survivor's best perks. You got value because you decided to pick the perk.
Yeah, killer has perk variety because there isn't a single one perk thats so busted it makes all others not worth running , not to mention killer perks have strict requirements or time gates, and when they dont its because the effect is so minimal, the day someone comes out claiming enduring and brutal strength are busted I'll laugh so damn hard.
Meanwhile survivors have a multitude of "get outta jail free cards" that its not even funny.
Got hit? heres MFT and Resi giving you perma haste and perma action speeds!
Got caught out of place? Heres sprintburst
teammate did a risky rescue near the killer? Heres basekit BT + OTR so you can bodyblock for your savior for up to 80 seconds!
Fumbled the chase before the last gen pops? heres adrenaline to give you a free healthstate AND SB effect. (Not to mention the effect being on hold incase you're in the killers grasp or on hook)
Theres are just to name a few. yet its impossible to name killer "GOJF cards" because they simply dont exist.
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Or even better yet, Resi and MFT activate for only 60 seconds after being hit.
Enough time for it to be useful in chase, and hit n run playstyles wont be affected.
Perks that alter action or movement speeds need strict requirements or time limits.
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@BlueHorkew said:
They are comback perks, or perks that help you when in trouble. Both sides have perks like that.
NOED, Enduring, bitter murmur, coupe de grace... They all only activate by you not doing anything or by making mistakes.
It's not something new or unfair.
Ah yes, Resi giving you 9% gen repair speed because you took a hit 5 minutes ago, you're in so much "trouble" when the killer is on the other side of the map while you crank out gens. did that happen to be the last gen in the match? alright heres adrenaline, giving you a free healthstate + Sprintburst effect, again because you're in so much "trouble" from that scary killer on 2 continents away.
Lets go over the perks you mentioned.
NOED - hex perk, can be clensed, hex location is revealed to survivors,survivors can pre-emptively cleanse all totems if noed is that concerning, only activates after all the gens are done, if the gens dont all pop, you wasted a perk slot.
Enduring - Really bruh... less stun duration is a "comeback perk"?
Bitter murmur - ah yes, my favorite comeback perk, lets you see auras of survivors near a completed gen (then again, if the gen is completed you know they are there, so worthless effect) you get to see the survivors aura's for 10 seconds after the last gen pops.... so good... /s
Coup - 2 longer reach swings whenever a gen is completed... wooo such a comeback!
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Compare this with MFT and resi ... "Hey you got inevitably hit? heres 3% speed bonus and 9% action speed on everything
yeah, doesn't seem "equal" does it...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3512885#Comment_3512885
For DBD to be properly "balanced" no side should have basic mechanics / perks / powers that an experienced player can abuse/exploit in order to artificially "increase" their "skill level".
ok. apply that logic to demo's add-on. demo's add-on artificially increased his power-level because it allowed experienced killer players to utilize information to get value out of his portals. as a result, the demo player would have an artificially "increase" to their "skill-level". as a result, the add-on was changed in accordance to your logic.
Are you seriously complaining about information add-ons.....? an experienced player knows where to go either way, so those kind of add-ons only help a 1/10 player go to 4/10, while someone thats already 9/10 goes to 9.01/10
Its like bringing deja vu to dead dawg saloon. will a top mmr player need deja vu to know that theres a gen by gallows, another by windmill and another on the main building balcony? No not really. Will it help a fresh install player? Yeah. Is it unbalanced? No.....
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For the love of god, stop trying to argue in bad faith with the "gotcha moments" , its ad hominem at its finest.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3512795#Comment_3512795
You always balance games around the very best players, because the very best know how to use and abuse every single advantage and trick in the game, and if the game is balanced for top level play, it will as a direct consequence, be balanced for all the other skill levels.
that is not true. a killer that is balanced for top-level play might not be balanced for lower-level of play. for example, a player who is adapt at successfully outplaying blight with alchemist ring might be fine with said add-on but a low to middle-level play who constantly get hit by blight rush will be obliterated by the add-on.
this also applies reverse. trapper might have great kill-rate for newcomers and middle-level of players but may perform terribly against 4 man SWF that optimizes survivor gameplay to the max.
Nobody in their right minds would balance for the "lower skill bracket", if you have to buff a perk or a mechanic so much that a fresh install is able to get consistent value, then as you can image, the "skillful" playerbase will be uncatchable and the game will be miserable for killer players.
so supaalf playing nurse should not be winning all his games as nurse because he is good at said killer? maybe we should nerf nurse until supaalf starts consistently losing at nurse. now apply that logic to survivor. you want nerf something because survivor is using the mechanic properly. you are suppose to get rewarded when you play better than your opponent....
You're coming from a blatantly false premise.
Blight and nurse are not "balanced" for any kind of skill level , if you nerf C33 or Alc ring, blight WOULD be balanced for top level play and the other 99% of blight players wouldn't even notice the changes because they didn't know how to abuse the addons either way. Thats the whole premise of the trickle down balancing system.
The community all agrees that demogorgon is one of the most balanced killers in the game. however, if you put an experienced demo player vs baby survivors, of course it would seem like demo is busted beyond belief. does this mean demo is overpowered? lmao no.
and yet that is the entire premise of your argument "if u put skill killa vs nub survivor then killa is not balanse!!1!1"
For DBD to be properly "balanced" no side should have basic mechanics / perks / powers that an experienced player can abuse/exploit in order to artificially "increase" their "skill level".
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Again, because this needs to be drilled into your head, stop trying to make arguments based on "if skilled killer faces baby survivor it means the killer is not balanced!!" no, thats not a character balance issue, thats a matchmaking issue. once you reach the MMR bracket where players dont know how to counter an addon, you'll also be at the skill bracket where people dont know how to get value of said add on.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3512795#Comment_3512795
You can make noob friendly features without breaking the game.
It's basically equivalent of soloQ features. HUD is currently main example.
But you definitely shouldn't balance the game around noobs. That simply won't end well, it would destroy any skill ceiling for survivors.
I don't even think it's that hard. Just watch some streamers and mimic it... It works for both killers and survivors.
Its more the fault of a lackluster tutorial system than anything else.
Tutorial for survivor is just -
"Dis a hook , hook bad"
"Dis a gen, you do gen"
then it throws you into a full bot lobby vs a trapper and lets you fend for yourself.
Tutorial system needs to expand to include a "running" tutorial with a TL tile and a jungle gym tile. so new players would atleast know the basics of looping
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@loki1337 said:
Right now in the game, killers are much stronger than survivors if the survivors are not pro players. A weak killer will easily catch a weak survivor because the entry threshold for survivors is MUCH higher than for killers. Survivors are much harder to play than assassins: you need to build routes, know how to mana, know techniques against each assassin, and more. One mistake for a survivor - you get a stage on the hook then tunneling from the killer and you are dead. I suggest making pallets recoverable, make more perks for constant acceleration. If you are weak for survivor - you won't run from killer for more than 20 seconds.
Nobody in their right minds would balance for the "lower skill bracket", if you have to buff a perk or a mechanic so much that a fresh install is able to get consistent value, then as you can image, the "skillful" playerbase will be uncatchable and the game will be miserable for killer players.
You always balance games around the very best players, because the very best know how to use and abuse every single advantage and trick in the game, and if the game is balanced for top level play, it will as a direct consequence, be balanced for all the other skill levels.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Lately, i am seeing a lot hate to this perk.
Adrenaline was here and there but it was not meta. Ofcourse this changed after CoH and medkit nerfs, Adrenaline is now very popular perk.
Do you think this perk is fine or devs needs to nerf it? And if you believe Adrenaline deserves nerf, how you would nerf it?
The perk's problem is that it negates killer pressure by allowing the survivor to bypass the 16s heal time, healing takes 2 people , so thats 2 people ideally not doing gens per heal. However with Adren you can just slam the last gen and instantly heal yourself. ( while also getting a SB effect when it happens) its especially bad when combo'd with resilience that allows you to pump that gen faster and in return, get the free heal faster.
Incase of a killer getting a snowball play and downing 2-3 people in quick sucession and they are all using adren, it allows the last remaining survivor to PICK EVERYONE UP ACROSS THE MAP, because he stuck the last gen instead of coming for the rescue.
Not to mention the fact that adrenaline saves the activation incase you're on the hook before the last gen pops, hence when you get rescued you come off the hook full health + endurance + sprintburst.
Hopefully you can understand that having a win stolen from your grasp because "perk goes brrrr" is not a fun experience.
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@averagemikaelamain said:
As per title. Killers got favored at vaults for 5+ years now. We all got used to vault hits making no sense and now when you finally fix them you revert it immediately? The only minor issue is how fast they're at dropdowns. Although it was even more killer favored at dropdowns before so I'm not sure if that's even a big issue.
The "updated" fast vaults were *undeniably bugged* Male survivors got more distance than female survivors and it doesn't take a PHD in game design to understand thats not an intended feature.
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Vault locations are not meant to give you i-frames, because as someone already pointed out, it would be hella weird if killers with half a meter of arm length + Weapon of choice couldn't hit you mid vault/animation end because "lel its a vault".
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3512193#Comment_3512193
Not necessarily. I've had plenty of matches where I've stayed hidden from the Killer, but I've still worked on gens and did hook saves when the Killer left the hook. The other three teammates would run around getting chased and bodyblocking for each other while I was the gen jockey. Once they all died, I either got hatch, or I got hooked and died as well. Half the time they'd say I was a bad teammate (never mind the gens and hook saves I did), but I counter that running the Killer all day long doesn't mean a thing if no one's doing gens.
That said, I also wish I could still have a chance of unhooking myself if everyone else is already dead. Even if I do get caught again, I'd rather have the 4% fighting chance than a 0%.
Because you were infact a bad teammate....
If you're on 0 hooks, why would you let your 2 hook teammate go for the save?
Being a dedicated gen slammer when your team is all on death hook is not a good play.
Bottom line is, you dont deserve a second chance at a consolation prize ,and neither are you entitled to wasting a killers time.
If you got found and hooked last, it is what it is, just accept the L and move on.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511518#Comment_3511518
It doesn't occur in 100% of matches, but it does happen often enough that certain perks become mandatory. I think that UB should be basekit, but for the activation condition to require two slugged survivors to be in close proximity to each other. Slugging doesn't happen often enough to run UB, but when it does happen, it's done excessively which only exacerbates how unfun it is to be nearly bled out before the killer finally decides to hook you.
Camping is finally being addressed after years, and rightfully so, because the person sitting on the hook getting hit repeatedly by the killer isn't having fun. They don't feel better because their team made it out due to them being camped. They just lose motivation to play.
Tunneling occurs frequently enough that survivors have to run OTR, but even that isn't enough to deter killers. They tunnel through the endurance anyway, which is why more needs to be done to address it. The solution cannot be to pigeonhole people into specific builds, and then complain that those builds are meta. You reap what you sow. Consequences and all that jazz.
Okay, were making progress, were finally agreeing that "slugging" isn't as prevalant as survivors claim it to be.
If tunneling occured "frequently enough" that survivors HAD to run OTR I'd assume that it would ATLEAST make it to top 10 most used perks in the OFFICIAL BHVR stats. Because unlike MFT, OTR has been out for the entire time the official stats kept track of.
infact the perks you see on the official stats are mostly chase perks and gen slam perks.
Much like you've said, you reap what you sow, when survivor meta revolves around making chases extremely painful because of MFT+Resi or the old meta with DH killers will be FORCED to try any other strat besides chasing.
Again let killers reap what they sow, they want to stare at a hook for 2 minutes? pop your gens and leave. killer gets 1k, but learns that camping isn't worth it for future matches.
Change your perks and strategy if you really consider "tunneling, slugging and camping" to be that prevalent
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@jordanjustice said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510778#Comment_3510778
Yes it would... Its called playing the game. Its the survivors first hook... Therefore, the Killer doesn't deserve the kill yet. They didn't earn the kill on that particular survivor. Kobe'ing in this situation still has the killer getting the survivor down 90% of the time. The odds are still with the killer.
But, thinking about it, at this time, there is NO reason for the auto-kill to happen. They literally stopped it before because the killer would just camp and auto smack the survivor down... But now, the survivor has BT, so the killer can't auto-down the survivor... Therefore, there is still game to play...
For killers worried about hatch.. maybe you guys stop face-camping and go find the hatch and close it? Which is also... something the killer is supposed to be doing. Game isn't over yet for the Killer either. So, Killer can wait for Kobe, accepting last chase of the match, or go find the hatch and close it.
I understand why Killers don't want this... the Auto-kill feature was a freebie to them.. But it no longer makes sense.
The scenarios in which you're 0/3 hooks when your teammates are all dead indicate you were a bad teammate.
Any survivor playing the actual game will be hooked at some point, in order to reach 0/3 hooks when everyone is dead it indicates you ATLEAST threw your last teammate under the bus to grab the consolation prize escape via hatch.
Theres no valid reason to give the last remaining survivor 2 extra chances at the consolation prize when they were some of the worst survivor teammates you could ever have.
With 3 dead, the game is over, if you get found accept the L and go next, and most importantly, stop trying to waste the killers time because you got upset. Break the toxicity cycle.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511346#Comment_3511346
Oh I fully understand why it was a problem, but at what point do we stop telling people to pigeonhole themselves into builds and then complain when they actually do it?
Nobody is "pigeonholing" anyone, its quite a simple premise, if you really do think Slugging camping and tunneling occurs in 100% of the matches, logically you'd bring anti-tunnel/slug/camp perks. Otherwise its safe to assume its just survivors throwing a fit because the killer knows basic math and can count to 10 to punish a basekit BT body block
Demanding the anti-tunnel/slug/camp perks be basekit because survivors want their benefits while also running MFT+Resi builds is a massive reason as to why people consider survivor mains some of the most entitled creatures.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510966#Comment_3510966
Way before the DS rework, before basekit BT, people would say the same things.
This resulted in survivors stacking "second chance" perks. This made killers irrationally angry, because survivors weren't actually supposed to listen.
DS, UB, DH, BT. I've played long enough to remember when that was quite literally every game on every survivor who's been playing the game for longer than 100 hours.
The DS rework needed to happen, but then they nerfed the stun duration so now it's worthless. DH needed a nerf, but then they nerfed it again, and now almost nobody uses it. UB is so situational that you only ever see it complained about in Twins games. BT only extends the duration for which an unhooked survivor has endurance and haste for. OTR is a fantastic anti-tunnel perk, unless the killer decides they're just going to tunnel you anyway.
There's basically nothing survivors can do to outright stop the killer from tunneling them. They can only delay the killer.
If you remember the DS UB DH BT meta you know why that was heavily disliked.
DH being used for distance and forcing killers to sniff a survivors hair for 10 seconds to try to bait it before actually M1ing. (not to mention being available every time you were injured)
BT much like today, being used offensively to bodyblock the killer with endurance.
If the killer tried punishing the BT bodyblock , the killer had to eat the DS, or concede a Self pickup via UB OR wait a full minute, OR allow another survivor to pick up the bodyblocker.
That meta was filled with Lose-lose / uncounterable situations and that is why people hated it.
And much like survivors keep complaining about "facing the same killer 5 times in a row", you can't even begin to comprehend how frustrating it was to go up against "Meta survivor nº123456789"
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Current day, the same loadout is perfectly fine since you can't pull that crap now.
How are you going to complain about "slugging" then turn around and claim "Unbreakable is so situational you'll only see it complained about in twins games"
What is the logic behind survivors claiming to be "tunneled and camped every game" then turn around and bring Hope+Adren for end game? if you did get "tunneled and camped every game" you'd think to bring perks to help you deal with that and not an endgame build.
Again, adapt and overcome, learn to swap your perks to an anti-tunnel/slug build if you ACTUALLY get tunneled that much.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511111#Comment_3511111
In loops, killer can moon walk, suddenly changing the direction forces survivor to react on time, or not enough time to make it to a pallet.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XBNEUFZC19FN/image.png
Consider killers have higher speed and Bloodlust.
Its weird to complain about the base mechanic since the game release.
Its extremely disingenous to claim "killers can just moonwalk" while ignoring that loops aren't just straight walls.
Loops are more like this :
Its also weird to forget that the original developer intention for DBD wasn't for the game to be a 3 rings around the rosey into pallet drop which resulted in massive map design oversights.
Its weird to forget that the bloodlust and window block mechanic exists because the developers acknowledged that certain tiles were inherently too strong and resulted in infinites when the survivor knew how to exploit them.
But yes, keep on claiming killers can just "Moonwalk" their way trough a tile.
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Props where it is to BHVR, the 2 most recent maps (Hux map, and now Xeno map) have some of the most fair tiles in DBD , hopefully im not the only one that noticed this.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511111#Comment_3511111
So what would your ideal environment be? 2 possible routes? So now the killer has a 50/50 chance of guessing their way to a down in the next 3 seconds. You also suggest reducing the number of jungle gyms. Ok, so now if they guess wrong they are punished by waiting 10 seconds for a down instead of 3. The horror.
Exactly how long do you want your queue time to be?
Super safe loops shouldn't be a thing at all.
Autohaven has a very huge problem with the way the tiles are, they are tall enough to prevent a ranged killer from punishing a survivor, but low enough that a survivor can see the killer because 3rd person cam lets you see OVER the tile , not to mention the autohaven tiles having gaps that lets you see the killer trough them and renders mindgames once again, useless.
Casual reminder that BHVR acknowledged that being able to see over tiles is inherently an unfair advantage when they patched out stretched resolution.
Incase anyone needs a autohaven JG refresher : https://youtu.be/bqnUTJcNe78?t=376
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511086#Comment_3511086
The whole point of the 3rd person camera is to be part of the survivor’s toolset. Heightened environmental awareness is beneficial when you can only run. Until survivors have weapons and killers have health states, the game needs to have mechanics and map designs that support survivors having more options than just going down the moment they’re spotted.
"environmental awareness" already exists via Sound like the terror radius and chase music , killer red stain, etc etc.
however being able to wait at a spot that guarantees you wont be caught because you can see all 3 possible routes and run accordingly isn't a very skilled endeavour , it nukes all skill expression and demolishes the suspense and "horror" factor of the game.
its akin to playing a custom game vs surv bots, surv bots having perma wallhacks just turns loops to a mind numbing 3 spins into pallet stun simulator.
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@Dreamnomad said:
Most endurance perks are associated with stopping killers from doing unfun things like tunneling or slugging. If you are making a lot of hits that cause endurance then it's possible that your playstyle is the problem and BHVR is trying to send you a subtle message.
This is simply not true.
MFT - grants you endurance for just healing a teammate.
Styptic add-on - gives you endurance because you taped E with a medkit in hand.
Mettle - gives you perma endurance after tanking 2 protection hits for a teammate.
Then theres the "Anti-tunnel" perks behind used offensively or pure mis-use -
Basekit BT - Bodyblocking the killer when the killer was trying to get the rescuer.
Off the record - 80s of endurance that only goes away after you tap a gen, if after 60 seconds of being rescued you get found and hit again, its hard to make a "tunneling " claim to justify having such a long 3rd health state status.
FTP+Buckle up combo - Hard to make a slugging claim when the killer doesnt even have enough time to wipe his weapon before the survivor gets picked up with endurance.
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Only perks you're correct on are soul guard and WGLF.
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Personally I believe BHVR should take the dead dawg saloon's shack way of tile balance into the other tiles.
DDS's shack has a breakable wall that turns shack from well... shack... into a fair longwall for the rest of the game,at the expense of conceding distance and wasting time once, it allows for a pseudo fix to Tile unbalance.
Or alternatively, reduce the amount of possible check spots on tiles , survivors being able to see 3+ possible routes in a tile because of 3rd person camera is ridiculous, it just makes mind games impossible aswell as neutering skill expression from both sides.
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@Sharby said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510869#Comment_3510869
Well I don't think it'd be possible to truly remove it. 😜
Its tricky though because you want to design it in a way where it's impossible to weaponize against the killer.
One idea I was toying around with in my head was cranking up the basekit BT to 30 seconds of 15% haste, vault-speed, and endurance, as well as show the auras of pallets and vaults like WoO. But have it disable in EGC and remove collision from the survivor.
The idea is to make the survivor so cumbersome to chase that it's a guaranteed loss even against less experienced players. But there is no way for it to prevent the killer from applying pressure to other survivors.
The only issue is that this would severely affect competitive play since they play for hookstates, but they can adapt tbh.
If survivors sincerely considered "tunneling" to be that big of a problem, they would stack anti-tunnel perks instead of mft+resi builds.
Survivors already play with 5 perks thanks to basekit BT. we dont need survivors using MFT+Resi+hope+adren AND getting another 4 Perk effects just because they got off the hook.
There already exists perks to counter the "unfun tactics" survivors claim.
Dont like slugging? bring Unbreakable.
Hate getting punished because of your teammate doing an unsafe rescue? bring OTR and DS.
Hate camping? Bring reassurance or just literally finish your gens. In 120 seconds the remaining team can finish 3 gens and 99 the other 2.
If your teammate unhooks you in the killers face, thats your teammates fault, not the killer for punishing it.
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These kinds of posts always bring out the most entitled of survivors essentially asking for BHVR to give them more basekit perks because survivors are unable to grasp the concept of swapping out their perks.
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The only marginally acceptable proposal is to remove player collision from survivors with basekit BT and OTR endurance so they dont get THEMSELVES tunneled.
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@catslayer said:
when an actual good survivor perk comes to the game people will immediately rant about it being too "op", unfair for the killer, etc... it's literally only 3% haste, what, you expect it to be 0,5% or something? and when you say something about a killer perk being "too strong", you get bashed for it. equal rights, equal skills. i'm tired of almost every useful perk being nerfed to the ground.
Theres a difference between "good" and "busted", MFT is busted, a 3% movement speed boost means a survivor is 0.6m ahead of where they would be without it, and 1.2m ahead after 10 seconds. This breaks loops and allows you make windows and pallets you otherwise wouldn't , this causes a 20-30 sec chase extension for free, with the potential for more incase theres other similar loops nearby.
SB,Lithe,Windows,Bond, UB etc are GOOD perks, but sadly survivor mains only classify perks as good if they are meta defining and busted beyond belief.
When MFT is present in 12/20 Most common builds on nightlight, it warrants BHVR taking a look at the status of the perk because *maybe* the 3% isn't as small as surv mains claim it is.
The only reason you dont see MFT in 20/20 builds is because people are doing Nic cage adept, or trying to abuse Plot-twist, Flipflip power struggle.
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@Floreslongasilive said:
Can we please somehow implement where we can't go against the same killer twice in a row? It gets frustrating and tiring going against Wesker 4 matches in a row.
Or allow us to filter 2 killers that we don't want to play against? That way we don't play them. Or even one. And you can change it every 15 days or something?
It gets annoying playing the same killer multiple times over and over, losing pips because of it.
*also Wesker is still way over powered, please nerf him!*
The same argument could be made about survivor perks, it gets frustrating and tiring having to go against MFT + Resi Builds every single game.
People will obviously gravitate towards killers that are strong enough to nullify or atleast dont struggle as much against survivor meta. No point in playing M1 killers vs current surv meta.
Not to mention, a killer blacklist feature would ensure people that enjoy certain killers would either get no matches or queues would take hours and that is plain unnaceptable.
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You come from a very entitled view point if you think its ok to demand your teammate to unalive himself or screwing him over to get the consolation prize.
The better solution would be a mechanic that triggers killer instict on the last standing survivor every 30 seconds or so, to discourage hiding and essentially throwing your teammate under the bus just so you can get your consolation prize via hatch.
I can sympathize with the Survivor that snitches on the hider because as a killer i'd rather give hatch to the survivor that put up the best fight instead of the dwight that hid in the locker for 2 whole minutes hoping his teammate would die.
Infact I'd argue that the ban should go on the survivor that hides because you're essentially holding the game hostage since you're not contributing anything to progress the game , only made worse when BOTH decide to hide and you can't even trigger endgame EGC as killer.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
I am asking your thoughts on this mechanic.
To me, tunnelling is very unhealthy and outdated mechanic. Killer player is just destroying fun for survivor player and not letting them to play game. Ofcourse blame is not going to killer player, it's mechanic in the game. BHVR takes all blame and shame here for not addressing this issue.
I am not saying destroy killer gameplay and make win imposible for them. No. Tunnelling and camping should be less viable but killers should be rewarded by when they go for hooks. Reward killer player for getting hooks from different survivors. Reward killer for chasing well. But tunnelling and camping should not be rewarded because they are very unskilled strategies.
Lets clear up the misconception here.
"Tunneling" only happens when a killer returns back to hook and ignores the rescuer to double tap the rescued.
If you get rescued and use basekit BT to bodyblock, you've essentially agreed to another chase, this is not tunneling.
If you get rescued and get organically found again before anyone else, thats not tunneling.
If the other survivor goes for a risky rescue in the killers TR, and you get downed + hooked again, thats not tunneling thats your teammate's mistake being punished.
etc etc.
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I can guarantee you, 99% of "tunneling" claims are due to a rescuer using basekit BT to bodyblock and getting punished, a risky rescue getting punished (for example, going down for a basement rescue when the killer didn't even make it past 5 feet out of shack). Or just being generally unlucky and being on the gen the killer checked.
First analyze what happened then you can understand what went wrong. if your teammate goes for a risky rescue and causes you to be downed and hooked again, thats on your teammate, not the killer.
Mistakes should be punished, not rewarded or erased.
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Camping? it takes 120 seconds for someone to go from 1st hook to death. your 3 teammates can pop 3 gens and put the other 2 on half progress in 120 seconds.
If you see a camping killer, just do your gens instead of staring at the killer while furiously pointing at the survivor rulebook for killers page #265 line #23 "Killers shall not be within 50 meters of a hook for more than 5 seconds after hooking someone"
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@Vespergaea said:
I'm really bored of being the second to last survivor, downed, no unbreakable, just sitting there while the killer spends 3 minutes looking for the last survivor hiding in a locker in the corner. Would love to have a button that shows up after being slugged for, say 2 minutes straight, that just, lets you go next. That or, like, bring the last survivor from dying to injured when they become the last one left, or something.
Or just remove DC penalties since bots are in the game now. There are options, really.
Theres only a couple of realistically viable options.
Option 1 : you bring Unbreakable. this is fairly straight forward.
Option 2 : BHVR implements a feature that triggers Kill instinct on the last standing surivor every 30 seconds.
Punishing killer with a basekit UB mechanic/Allowing self unalive to give hatch because the last survivor is hellbent on getting his consolation prize is ludicrous.
The logical solution is to punish the survivor thats holding the game hostage via hiding, not the killer for doing his job.
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On the DC topic, people already pointed out before, we play multiplayer games to play with other players, its not even remotely reasonable to punish someone with a PVE match just because a survivor ragequit over the tiniest of incoveniences.
I'd be more open to a match forfeit vote feature, to prevent people from being forced to play out DC matches.
if everyone agrees to a forfeit, no BP gets awarded, but your items and addons dont get consumed and theres no DC penalty.
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@jordanjustice said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3507877#Comment_3507877
This doesn't address this perspective of the survivor being hooked. Most survivors are SoloQ, not team. They'd like to enjoy the game themselves, and not sacrifice their enjoyment to punish a cheating killer and let the other teammates do the gens. The game should fun for everyone of the 5 people in the match. If it isn't, then the game is failing. For this main reason, the devs do need to do something about camping, tunneling, and slugging. But they won't. They've had 7 years and the closest we got was BT being basekit... but killers just wait out BT.
There are ways to prevent it, but the devs have never implemented it. I've mentioned anti-tunneling thoughts in past posts that would protect the unhooked survivor for longer or until they start helping the team (doing gens, taking protection hits, etc).
One thing that I've not really ever understood is why do the killers get a notification when an unhook occurs. This just incentivizes the killer to prioritize the hook, stay close, and return to it quickly. The killer should be protecting gens throughout the match. That's 50% of their priority. They should find survivors by patrolling gens, not camping/returning to hooks. Once a survivor is hooked, the killer won that battle.. There should be nothing else alerted to that killer dealing with that hook. They should become blind to it and they should continue patrolling the gens looking for their next chase.
Every suggestion to "fix camping tunneling and slugging" is survivors essentially asking for mistake erasers.
Camping - One of the most easily punished "unsavory strats" since you'll have 3 other teammates free to do gens.
Every single proposal to "fix camping" has been via a basekit deliverance that works in both stages. However, this has the side effect of working as a mistake eraser for survivors when all the remaining survivors decide to stand and stare at the killer near the hook instead of doing gens.
This is a lose-lose situation for killer, either concede the unhook by enganging in a unnecessary chase or concede the unhook via basekit deliverance.
Tunneling - Every single proposal to fix "tunneling" has been via lengthy endurance effects. Already with the 10s of endurance (or 80 with OTR) survivors use that endurance to bodyblock a killer thats going out of his way to not tunnel. Basekit BT was not intended for Bodyblocking.
Slugging - every single proposal to fix "slugging" has been trough Basekit Unbreakable, however this would legitimately work against snowballing, and erase survivor mistakes.
Do you reasonably expect killers to find 2-3 survivors on a gen , down 1, and let the other 2 run away for free? if you get caught together, you suffer the consequence of your own mistakes.
What if a survivor gets downed by a pallet? would it be fair for the killer to either be forced to eat the flashy/Pallet save or let the downed survivor pick himself up with basekit UB?
The motto is adapt and overcome, not cry and moan.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
This game feels unfairly killer favor atm. If you have not SWF to play together, good luck to have fun as solo survivor.
Killer meta perks nerfed for sure but they are still alive and strong but survivor perks unfairly killed!
Pop - still meta
Corrupt - still meta
Pain Res - still meta
Noed - still meta
The only dead perk from old meta is Ruin. But killers are using Sloppy, Deadlock, Jolt, NWO instead of it. Killer meta is still strong and they still stacking and making gens so slower.
But survivor's old meta perks all killed except Resilience.
Iron Will - dead
Dead Hard - dead
Decisive Strike - dead
CoH - dead
Spine Chill - dead
These perks are not giving you good value anymore. IW is not making you quiet and you are losing it when you are exhausted. DS is joke level perk now. DH has only 2 time use and even it's not guaranteed. CoH is dead for solo survivors good for SWFs. SC has no use anymore.
And sadly, their buffed perks are terrible bad. Even their best buffed perk (Off the Record) is not meta perk. It was not in top 10 because it's just so bad to helping against tunnelling. And other buffed perks are not seeing so much use as well.
They just killed survivor meta perks but they did not give us anything for return.
Lets go over a massive misconseption real quick.
The only way to determine which side the game favours the most is by looking at the skill bracket where the game is played the most optimally.
If when the game is played 100% optimally by both sides, the survivors still manage to pull a 3/4 man out, it tells you the game inherently favours survivors one way or the other.
"Mimimimi but killers go on winstreaks of 100s while survivor players dont11!!!"
Playing killer, you only have to rely on yourself, and the outcome of the match is 100% dictated based on your skill.
Meanwhile even if a survivor player is a god tier looper, all it takes is 1 chase and a team that doesn't unhook him to end his "streak". When your wins are dependant on 3 other people playing right, its obvious you wont streak at all.
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Now perks
A majority of killer perks are downright useless or so situational that killers prefer using a nerfed perk over the others.
Lets be real, who in their right minds uses any of the wraith, Oni , Pig, Huntress, Skull merchant ,etc. perks?
The only reason we're now seeing Oni's Blood echo pop up is because of MFT's status as the most busted perk in the game as of now.
Which leads me into survivor perks....
Iron will - this perk is still strong, paring it on a character like ace or ada will make you essentially silent. no idea why you claim this is dead.
Dead hard - yada yada yada, Uncounterable DH for distance, E press at pallet etc etc. you know why this perk needed a rework and its pointless to have to re-explain something that has been said before Millions of times.
DS - 1 minute of immunity is insane with the only counterplay being "slug for a minute and concede the pickup" , this is incase you weren't forced the eat the DS with a locker play, if you unhook someone in the killers face, thats a mistake, perks working as mistake erasers should never be a thing.
COH - Allowed survivors to set up an infinite heal camp on 1 corner of the map. made medkits obsolete, killed Hit n run playstyle, if it got snuffed a survivor could just reboon it 15s later. Ironically, for a healing perk this was one of the most unhealthy perks in the entire game.
Spine Chill - This perk forced killers to crab walk to gens, gave permanent pseudo-Wallhacks AND a vault speed increase. it was objectively too strong and forced weird behavior on killers just to counter it.
Off the record - has the potential of giving you 3 HEALTH STATES if you get healed under hook , allows you to bodyblock for up to 80 seconds because of the endurance effect. This is far from a "weak perk".
Also your survivor entitlement is shining trough, just because blatantly busted survivor perks get the nerfs they deserve, it doesn't mean you're entitled to a new busted toy to abuse.
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@Kawaii_Kitty420 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3506713#Comment_3506713
then the main issue needs to be addressed as to why is the killer even there to begin with? ive had killers just sit directly in front of me for well over at least 20 seconds and no one can get me off the hook because they are a foot or so from me and if anyone even attempts they just get injured or downed completely (if they have exposed) There needs to be a better conveyance of the killer losing points during the match if they are to close to the hook.
Theres counters to "camping"
If the killer is camping someone on hook , you have 3 people free to do 3 gens , in the 120 seconds it takes for someone to die via camping (120 seconds) your team can pop 3 gens and get half progress on the other 2. however since most of the time a gen or 2 pops during the first chase, you can finish the remaining 3 gens in the match in the time it takes the hooked person to die.
You have to learn to be less altruistic in order counter camping, 2-3 people hovering around the hook just going "omg the rulebook states you can't camp mister killer!!11" means the killer is getting free pressure by guaranteeing a kill while nobody is doing gens.
People use the tactics that gets them the most value, stop rewarding hook camping with 3 people off gens attempting a save and the cheap strat killers will be forced to adapt.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3506811#Comment_3506811
You cannot name DH and BL in the same category as Sprint Burst and Lithe when it comes to their power levle. Yes, they are all Exhaustion-Perks, but people will almost never use DH or BL over Sprint Burst or Lithe, unless it is personal preference.
This is like saying that a Killer might want to use a Perk which is weaker than PGTW, but does the same over PGTW. Not gonna happen.
IMO MFT is not that strong that it makes Exhaustion Perks not worth using. I mean, this is true for the majority of Exhaustion Perks, mainly because they are so much weaker than the rest. But at this point, certain Exhaustion Perks amke other Exhaustion Perks not using. And Made For This HAS to be strong to be an alternative to Exhaustion-Perks. Otherwise it would just be a Perk which is around and nobody is using it.
I also dont really get why Exhaustion-Perks are now defended and once Made for This is nerfed (we know, Killers will get their will with their mass-complaining), Exhaustion-Perks are again the Number 1-Talk for Nerfs.
But yeah, Survivors dont really get good Perks. They get fun Perks. Or situational Perks. But not good Perks, at least not compared to the amount of Perks Killers get. This time was an exception and Killers riot, because suddenly they lose games because of Made for This (yeaaaah, suuuure...). And I wont change my mind on that one.
You cannot name DH and BL in the same category as Sprint Burst and Lithe when it comes to their power levle. Yes, they are all Exhaustion-Perks, but people will almost never use DH or BL over Sprint Burst or Lithe, unless it is personal preference.
They are all exhaustion perks .... and yeah thats what makes the current exhaustion line up balanced, that there isn't a "clear choice" best exhaustion and its up to personal preference...
IMO MFT is not that strong that it makes Exhaustion Perks not worth using. I mean, this is true for the majority of Exhaustion Perks, mainly because they are so much weaker than the rest. But at this point, certain Exhaustion Perks amke other Exhaustion Perks not using. And Made For This HAS to be strong to be an alternative to Exhaustion-Perks. Otherwise it would just be a Perk which is around and nobody is using it.
They aren't weak, they are situational or get one activation per chase. Nobody feels cheated out of a hit / down because the other guy popped Balanced from the top ropes. people just go "Oh damn he has BL, that was a smart play from his part, next time I'll try to push him away from Coal tower"
On the other hand we have MFT, just making you faster in general because you got outplayed in the first half of the chase and allowing you to make pallets and windows you otherwise wouldn't have made. Theres no legitimate counterplay to MFT.
"Oh bring X perk to counter MFT" - So what if the killer doesn't have the character the perk belongs to? hes just #########? If you're forced to pay 9.99$ just to be able to remain competitive then it means the game is unbalanced and borderline Pay to win.
But yeah, Survivors dont really get good Perks. They get fun Perks. Or situational Perks. But not good Perks, at least not compared to the amount of Perks Killers get. This time was an exception and Killers riot, because suddenly they lose games because of Made for This (yeaaaah, suuuure...). And I wont change my mind on that one.
You keep trying to argue that because you believe X killer perk is overpowered Y survivor perk needs to be overpowered too. Survivors have PLENTY of GOOD perks, nobody deserves overpowered, meta defining , "I win" Buttons. A truly honest person would accept that busted perks need to be toned down and not make these "us v them" arguments.
And yes, MFT has the potential to cause losses just by the mere fact that over a 5s period you'll be 0.6m ahead of where a non-MFT user would be. this breaks loops, throws off muscle memory and denies the skill people have built over the years.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3506720#Comment_3506720
Nice talking, but missing the point.
I only talked about WHEN those Perks were released. I never said that the Nerfs were not justified. (Even tho, the last DS-Nerf was not justified and the last CoH-Nerf was not justified as well... IMO letting it only work on one floor would have been enough as a Nerf in its state before the nerf that made it useless).
My point was just that it is very, very rare for Survivors to actually get good Perks. And a Perk is also not good if Killer Mains cry about it in the Forums pre-release and then notice that nobody is using it, because it is bad.
And the thing is - something like Made for This HAS to be strong to make Survivors not use Exhaustion-Perks. Killers complain about Exhaustion-Perks and Made For This is an alternative which has to be strong. Otherwise there would be no point in using it. And IMO, the average Survivor will probably still get more use out of Lithe and Sprint Burst.
(Killers on the other hand usually get at least one decent Perk per Patch and sometimes a Perk which can be good on certain Killers. Maybe End Transmission might be an exception, but I have to say that Forced Hesitation is slept on)
You go on a rant about "good perks that got gutted" Name the most problematic perks in DBD'd existance and somehow I missed the point.... makes sense....?
Survivors do get good perks, but the problem is, survivors only classify perks as good if they turn the game into easy mode.
MFT shouldn't be strong to the point of making exhaustion perks not worth using, balanced perks force you to choose which one suits your playstyle the best.
Theres a variety pick between SB, Lithe, DH, and Balanced because they offer benefits on very specific scenarios.
do you often not notice the killer aproaching your gen until its too late? well SB is for you.
Would you rather have a triggerable speed boost on vaults? Lithe is for you.
Do you enjoy making a clutch parry/dodge? you got DH.
Do you find yourself often ontop of buildings or tall structures ? Balanced has you covered.
Then theres MFT, a generalist 3% speed boost perk with no activation requirement besides being hit. Said 3% allows you to be 0.6m ahead of where you would normally be every 5 seconds, (1.2m after 10 seconds , and so on). and cause an undeserved chase extension because you made a pallet or window you wouldn't have made otherwise, Multiple times per chase.
Atleast the other 4 exhaustion perks only work once per chase with varying effectiveness.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3506348#Comment_3506348
I mean, if Killers would not think this way we would not have several of them throwing a tantrum whenever a good Perk for Survivors is released. The last good Perk before Made For This was Circle of Healing and while this was too strong on Release, it got nerfed into uselessness over time. Reassurance did not even leave the PTB because suddenly Killer Mains were worried that
they cannot camp anymoreabout Survivors being held hostage by other Survivors...And before this we have Mettle of Man which was released long ago... And before this, basically Dead Hard or DS (I dont know which one was earlier, I think DS was earlier, so DH was released later). Both of them also nerfed quite heavily and not really useful anymore.
Lets go over the perks you've mentioned....
COH - Allowed survivors to set up an infinite reset camp , butchered Hit n run playstyles since injured survivors would just retreat to COH and heal back up. No counter play besides searching the entire map for a totem and snuffing it, just for the survivor to reboon it 15 seconds later essentially making finding the boon worthless. - Perk was busted.
PTB Reassurance - stopped the hook progress for 30 seconds, with a cooldown of 40s instead of once per hook state. it allowed 2 survivors with the perk to keep someone on the hook forever, or it allowed for multiple pseudo saves incase you missplayed and got hit before unhooking.
Not only did PTB Reassurance have a MASSIVE griefing potential it also allowed survivors to get away with blatant missplays with no punishment. - Again, perk was busted.
Mettle of man - Allowed you to be damage immune on every 4th hit , there was no "protection hit" requirement to gain that effect, just literally getting hit at any point during the match 3 times was all it took to give you an uncounterable damage immunity on the 4th. - Perk was busted.
DS - Allowed you to get away unpunished for bodyblocking off hook , either killer picks you up, eats DS and you make it to the other side of the map. or he leaves you slugged for 60 seconds / allows a revive. But again, the slug "punishment" could be countered by literally just running into a locker and forcing a DS activation - Perk was busted.
DH - Perk was so common to the point of forcing all killer players to assume everyone had it and play around it. it forced every single killer to sniff a survivors hair for 10 seconds in an attempt to bait out DH even if they didn't have DH. and its not over yet....
Old DH allowed you to Dead hard for distance , allowing you to make pallets and windows you shouldn't have and extend chase for an extra 20-30 seconds just by pressing E. - This perk even had survivor players AGREE it was busted.
The fact that the only time you consider a survivor perk to be good when its an absolutely busted mess of a perk to the point of being an "I win button" makes be believe you're not someone whos opinion on perk balance should be taken into consideration at all.