WilliamSN
WilliamSN
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3506419#Comment_3506419
Honestly even current buckle Up to me seems way too niche
Thats the whole point of perks... either provide alternative abilities, or provide benefits for doing specific actions.
If a perk is pretty much a buff to basekit its a busted perk.
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@BreadLord said:
Why does WGLF have a condition to make and buckle up dosnt. Soulguard buckle up and wglf all do the same thing but different secondary effects so would be nice to all be equal in giving the endurance
You've identified the right problem, which is Buckle up making WGLF obsolete, but the solution to that isn't to make WGLF busted aswell.
If a perk seems weak because another perk is busted, the right solution is to nerf the busted perk, not to make a SECOND busted perk.
Reverting Buckle up would fix the issue and doesn't require a PTB.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3505953#Comment_3505953
If they have MfT, then they physically cannot be exhausted, and can't break chase because they have no exhaustion perk.
There only way to break chase is on the killer by losing them, breaking a pallet, or otherwise being bad at chase.
If you can't manage bloodlust or functionally use your killers power, that is, at the very core of the video game, the definition of a skill issue on your part.
Deliberately ignoring the fact that Bloodlust resets whenever a killer tries to use power or breaks a pallet is disingenous.
- 15 s in chase without power or pallet break in order to have a 5% haste
- Some pallets aren't fair 50/50s and force you to break it , shack pallet is a good example, half of "The Game" is a good example (Especially the 2 god pallets in the same hallway next to basement)
- Ranged killers lose Bloodlust even if they dare to aim their M2.
In conclusion, "managing bloodlust" isn't a "skill issue" , just Poor map design / game design.
Only time Bloodlust comes into play is in a straight line chase, but at that point going down is an inevitability.
Survivors keep bringing up Bloodlust as a "gotcha" moment when someone mentions MFT, but ignore the fact that a true comparison would be if MFT only triggered after 15s in chase and you couldn't drop pallets or take vaults for it to activate. (Or bloodlust activated as soon as you entered chase)
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@k3ijus said:
”you reward bad survivor play and give them perks with no drawbacks or skill”
killers perks that reward bad gameplay
;-infamous noed-coup de grace-tinkerer-enduring-lightborn-hubris-rancor-brutal strength
all of these are abilities that work directly against good survivor plays, and are much more powerful than any 3% boost that may of got “an extra loop”and in some cases ONE of these perks can change a whole game.
but wait!
”no drawbacks or no skill”
Almost every killer perk in the whole entire game is earned passively through just doing assignments. so ur argument against that doesnt even make sense.
as for skill-wise tho, killers have;
-nowhere to hide,deadlock,starstuck,corrupt intervention,banboozle,trail of torment,iron grasp,discordance,im all ears,
and by the way, mft,hope,and resilence have requirements to activate. But the perks i said are not only 4x stronger (so stronger than a whole lobby if they had it equipped) but also have no requirements AT ALL, or even worse actives upon a bad play.
did i forget to mention that these arent even all the perks i could of mentioned? But to make it clear and concise i made sure to only include ones you couldnt argue away
P.S- after healing nerfs, it was pure gen rushing which resulted in no heals entirely and focusing on gens rather than interacting with the killer or healing/ alturism. The game at that point was at a low point for awhile with no side having fun and the games being either 4ks or 4 mans escape purely because of how fast survivors could do gens, or how fast killers could apply pressure due to lack of alturism.
You've managed to name every single killer perk that has
Time constraints , Distance requirements, limited activations, can be removed from play (hexes) or the effect is so minimal its not even worth bringing most of the time.
In an attempt to justify a survivor perk that :
Rewards you on the second half of the chase because you got hit, which in turn allows you to make pallets and vaults you shouldn't have, because every 5s you're 0.6m ahead of where you should be (10s = 1.2meters, and so on) therefore resulting in a 20-30 second chase extension that you did not deserve.
EVEN IF you think those killer perks are "unbalanced" a truly honest person wouldn't be defending a blatantly busted survivor perk.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3505313#Comment_3505313
The insanity of claiming killer is "strongest" when all gens are done
And I already wrote reasons for that... Again. Deliberately ignoring the message.
hold m1 for 15 seconds on a gate switch
Why would I waste any perks on last 15s of games if it was so inconsequential. Maybe because IT'S ACTUALLY NOT?
you wouldn't be making it to endgame anyway
I don't know about you, but when I play games, I usually try to actually win (to varying degrees - this does not mean I always tryhard) - so logically I will not make easy part even easier just to die endgame, when I could instead make the hard part a bit less hard.
This is legitimately a simple concept to grasp for anyone even the most casual of survivors.
Agreed - yet you can't figure out that people actually want help in parts, where they struggle for some reason
> so logically I will not make easy part even easier just to die endgame
You've went the roundabout way of admitting survivor gameplay is infact easy, and people bringing more endgame builds is in direct correlation to that and therefore agreeing that the OP is right.
And again , endgame isn't hard, all you do is pop last gen then sprint to the gate, theres *no game* after the last gen pops.
The mental gymnastics you're doing to try to claim holding M1 for 15 seconds at a gate is harder than doing 5 gens is hilarious to watch.
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@Gandor said:
@WilliamSN It's not my fault u don't want to see the meaning behind my words.
My point is - all it indicates people need most help during endgame, because endgame is most killer-sided. It doesn't matter if I have easy "core" game, if I consistently then die endgame - so endgame perks make sense to combat strongest killer's part of game.
The goal is to escape overall, not to get to endgame and die there...
The insanity of claiming killer is "strongest" when all gens are done and all you gotta do is hold m1 for 15 seconds on a gate switch... oh my days.
By definition survivor gameplay is sequential, if the core game was difficult, you'd equip gen speed , anti-hook, Loop perks etc, however if you find the core game to be easy on basekit, you can skip the core game perks and go straight for an end-game Guaranteed escape build, with the likes of Adren and hope.
If you expect your team to be wiped at 2-3 gens remaining you wouldn't be bringing 2 endgame perks because *you wouldn't be making it to endgame anyway*
This is legitimately a simple concept to grasp for anyone even the most casual of survivors.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504831#Comment_3504831
There's no survivor perk that is guaranteed to give you (full) value. Every perk is conditional in one way or another. The best thing you can get is distortion and not loosing stack interpreting as an information that there isn't Lethal pursuer in the game. Very similar thing to bond - you don't see any teammate, so it probably means nobody is close by (or more likely you see them but it provides 0 information you can actually use in any capacity).
You absolutely can get 0 value from any healing perk (because plague), any exhaustion perk (say blood echo/fearmonger), any aura perk (undetectable), any anti-hook perk (pyramidhead), any boon (shattered hope), any locker perk (iron maiden), etc etc. It's always about bringing things, that you presume will help you the most. But it's always a gamble.
And being tunneled out (even on 5 gens) is not that rare these days. So even endgame perks are a gamble (in a same sense as most other perks are).
you've perfected the art of saying alot without saying anything at all.
The point still stands, the rise in hope+adren popularity indicates more and more survivors are EXPECTING to make it to end game / escape.
Which indicates survivors aren't seeing much struggle in the core game and dont need perks that help them in the core game.
If survivors weren't expecting to make it to end game, then adren and hope wouldn't be seen as much considering that they'd be dead slots.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504455#Comment_3504455
Alternatively it means that during endgame survivors struggle the most.
That might be the case because a, all resources on map are used up b, a lot of perks are already disabled c, killer already has only 1 task and that is to camp d, endgame killer perks are quite common (like say NOED, no way out, etc)
So having a perk that helps in this situation is not that crazy to me.
I highly doubt survivors would pick a perk that might end up be a dead slot... unless you're expecting to make it to endgame to get value.
Logic wise it makes no sense to bring an end-game build unless you expect to make it to end game.
Survivors expecting to make it to end game indicates they dont struggle with the core game.
A killer expecting to make it to end game indicates they do struggle with core game.
Why would a killer bother bringing No way out, noed, Blood warden, etc etc. if they dominate in the core game? to have 3 dead slots?
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@Nazzzak said:
Usage rate is simply how many people equip it. Not how many people get to endgame to get value from it.
Usage rate indicates what areas people are struggling with and most importantly, the ones they aren't.
If you dont struggle with Looping and gen progress, theres no point equiping Loop/Anti-Loop or Gen speed/Gen regression perks.
Now when the usage rate of a survivor perk (Adren / Hope) dedicated to end game is at an all time high, it lets you know people dont find looping or gens to be difficult (The core game) and they expect to make it to end game more often than not.
This in turn allows you to make a fair assumption that perhaps the kill / Hook rates are sinking and the core game requires a balance pass.
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@OneNineTwoNine said:
Let's talk about genrushing. Even if you don't think "genrushing" is a real thing, the fact that gens get completed so quickly in a lot of matches is still a massive issue. I main both survivor and killer, and find that in most of my games as killers gens pop so quickly it's overwhelming.
But I'm not gonna sit here and say that it's because survivors are genrushing, because the real problem is not how much time it takes to do the gens, actually. And that's why increasing the time that it takes to do gens, in reality, does nothing.
Originally, a gen took 65 seconds to complete. Now it takes 90 seconds to complete, and if we do some math, we can see that this only improves gen times marginally with a competent team.
There are 5 gens survivors have to do, let's assume that you are currently chasing 1 survivor, and all the other 3 are on gens (realistically, there will always be some variance in a real world example because of the inherent randomness in the game).
So if we use the original gen times in our math:
65 * 5 (gens) / 3 (survivors) = 108. That's 1 Minute and 48 Seconds.
Now, if we use the 90 second generators today:
90 * 5 / 3 = 150. That's 2 Minutes and 30 Seconds.
So in reality, all we've done here is give the killer a marginal 42 extra seconds. But what we've also done is make the game way more boring for the survivors having to hold M1 for one and a half minutes to complete their objective, as well as making it harder for solo queue.
So what's the problem then? In my opinion, this mechanic is inherently flawed as long as several survivors can complete multiple generators at the same time.
No amount of slowdown will help the game as long as generators can be split across several survivors. I think that in order to "solve genrushing" there needs to be actual changes in the core mechanics of this game. Of course, the devs didn't anticipate that this party game would be optimized by people who like to win every match.
Thoughts?
The problem is more on spawn logic than gen times themselves.
More often than not, survivors spawn in 2 clusters of 2, with a gen not even 2 feet away from either cluster, and the killer spawning on the opposite side of the map, facing the wall like a child on timeout.
This results in 2 gens that will be completed before you have a chance at starting a chase, and since you can only chase 1 survivor at a time, 3 others are allowed to progress the rest of the gens for pretty much free.
for the price of 1 chase, you're at 1 / 1.5 gens just because of faulty spawn logic.
They could fix this by forcing all survs to spawn together and in the furthest possible spawn from any gen in order to artificially increase the game time without touching the numbness of holding M1 on a gen.
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@dbdthegame said:
Is 8 minutes supposed to be fast? Most of my games have gens done in 4-5 minutes even with gen regression perks.
to be fair, 5 gens when done one at a time takes 7 :30 minutes , but yeah 4-5 minutes is more accurate because 2-3 gens start being worked on as soon as game starts.
Its more of a spawn logic issue where survs spawn in a 2 clusters of 2 with gens not even 2 feet away while the killer spawns on the opposite corner of the map facing a wall like a child on timeout.
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@JonOzzie16 said:
There's many counters to made for this.
Exposed perks / add-ons
Exhausting perks / add-ons
Hindered perks / add-ons
Stealth perks / add-ons
Know when to drop chase.
But stick to your slow down perks and complain when you can't catch survivors. The meta has changed. Time to adapt.
I do think made for this will be eventually nerfed. But you need to actually try to counter builds that you don't like going against.
Also, hope doesn't need to be nerfed. There are no issues with it. People are now only upset because it's being used with Made for this.
So you dont see a massive balancing problem when the only way to counter a perk is to pay 9.99€ for one specific character to have access to the very specific counter perk / killer power?
Pretty positive thats textbook Pay 2 win, and im surprised survivor mains aren't opposed to that kind of balancing philosophy.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3502177#Comment_3502177
If you somehow get "slugged and camped" for 4 minutes and the gens aren't done... boy oh boy what is your team doing, this argument is invalid.
i am not saying slugging too prominent because average dbd survivor game has killer hooking more then slugging but if a killer does not hook and slugs entire game. eventually your bleed out timer will become lower and lower. if it reaches like 60 seconds remaining, a killer might choose to camp you to get the kill similar to how killer camp hooks. buckle up can save you in those situations without killer downing either of you.
it ts the purest definition of a lose lose situation, theres no counterplay to it and you're forced to take another 20-30 second chase.
I mean yeah. that is what strong second chance perks do. they make you waste time.
These kind of scenarios are extremely unhealthy and just discourage people from playing the killer role or forces them to gravitate towards Nurse, Blight, Spirit , Wesker , etc etc.
sure because those killers waste less time against second chance perks. they can re-down the survivor quickly.
And again you bring up the 1 in a million slug scenario to justify Buckle up's existance.... meanwhile forget to realize that if the killer downed you enough times for your "bleed out timer" to be under 60 seconds, you're probably losing either way OR your SWF is running a bully build that forces the killer to slug, and at that point you can't justify giving bully swfs a second chance perk for pickups.
You agree that second chance perks are lose lose situations, so we're both aware they are unbalanced, good.
And guess what happens once survivors are forced to go against 10x weskers in a row because of BS second chances? they'll complain the game is "stale and theres no variety", while they themselves run the same 4 second chance perks every match.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3502135#Comment_3502135
By all intents and purposes going for a pickup in the killers face is a *massive mistake* , a perk allowing you to make a *massive mistake* and get positive benefits from it , is not healthy.
the killer is camping the slug. if the survivor has very little bleed out timer left, you will not be able to rescue them without buckle up and FTP.
the irony of second chance perks with lose/lose is that all second chance perks for survivor end up being allegedly countered by eating second chance and re-downing the survivor. I am not entirely sure if that is healthy but that is just how it currently works.
If you somehow get "slugged and camped" for 4 minutes and the gens aren't done... boy oh boy what is your team doing, this argument is invalid.
being forced to eat trough endurance is a lose lose situation, they get picked up, 10s of endurance, you hit them they get speed boost and make it to the next loop. you dont hit them, and they make it to the next loop either way. its the purest definition of a lose lose situation, theres no counterplay to it and you're forced to take another 20-30 second chase.
These kind of scenarios are extremely unhealthy and just discourage people from playing the killer role or forces them to gravitate towards Nurse, Blight, Spirit , Wesker , etc etc.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3501689#Comment_3501689
Buckle up was only "weak" until 6.5.0 , the 10% haste is a very good effect for a pickup.
if the killer is away from the slug then you do not need 10% haste. when the killer is right next to the survivor that is slugged, the killer can hit the survivor you heal right back on the floor.
explain why you think survivor should equip that perk.
survivor mains only consider perks to be good if they offer a second chance /erase a mistake.
they consider the perk good if it improves their odds of escaping. buckle up was not improving their chance of escaping. survivors want to escape as well.
And if the killer is far away, you dont need endurance either...? You'd be better off with 10% haste to speed to the nearest gen or a safe spot to heal.
Stop warping the words, survivors consider perks to be good if they offer a second chance / erase a mistake. every single perk increases your chances at escaping, but 120 of those dont put the killer in a Lose-lose situation like current Buckle up does.
By all intents and purposes going for a pickup in the killers face is a *massive mistake* , a perk allowing you to make a *massive mistake* and get positive benefits from it , is not healthy.
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@DavidHypnos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3501781#Comment_3501781
How about we just end the game once the last gen is completed? The EGC was created to favor killers but if it’s not enough for you we can flip it and favor the survivors instead. They did, after all, complete their objectives.
As if survivors being able to control when EGC starts not enough of a survivor sided EGC mechanic already.
Teammate on hook before when the last gen pops? time to 99 the gate so we get an insta gate open and no EGC pressure!
Your post history tells me you're one of the most Survivor biased person on this forum, if you're unable to see balance for what it is, dont be giving your biased opinion.
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@Exxodus21 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3501315#Comment_3501315
Opening the gate relieves pressure on the survivors. The killer does the last part of their objective for them and there's nothing to prevent them from walking out. Plus the killer has to abandon their own objective tondo so. The fact that killers can only start EGC that way is ridiculous.
Maybe the whole EGC system needs to be reworked.
The rework would be fairly easy.
Make EGC start as soon as the last GENERATOR is powered.
99'ing gates that can't even be "regressed" just to have infinite time to go for a save / Multi hook trade to attempt a 4 man out is quite honestly, not balanced , made even more obnoxious when survs have Hope + MFT to make catching them in endgame absolutely impossible.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3501580#Comment_3501580
I hate to break it to you but Buckle Up was garbage regardless of what other perks exist. Buckle Up was considered to be one of the worst perks in the game for years.
You'd have to nerf a lot more than 5-6 perks to make Buckle Up (before the rework) look good in comparison to the rest of them. Maybe if you said 80-100 you'd be more along the right lines.
Buckle up was only "weak" until 6.5.0 , the 10% haste is a very good effect for a pickup.
Problem is, survivor mains only consider perks to be good if they offer a second chance /erase a mistake.
Second chance / Mistake erasers never feel good to play against and have no place in the game.
Again, a balanced perk provides you with benefits for doing a specific action. WGLF is a perfect example.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3500616#Comment_3500616
WGLF applies a massive healing speed bonus to Survivors in the Dying State. Buckle Up does no such thing. In terms of applying Endurance, Buckle Up is better, but for actually getting Survivors off the ground, WGLF wins here.
Previous Buckle Up was not fine, it was pretty objectively terrible.
Buckle up was a fine perk, the only reason people think it was "not good" is because theres 5-6 survivor perks that are miles above the other 128 to the point of making them irrelevant , if those were brought down in line, Buckle up's 10% haste would be considered very good.
Theres not a single instance where the WGLF speed boost comes in useful, if a surv goes down and is slugged for more than 20 seconds, you can bet he has the recovery up to 90% , Will the recovery heal boost from WGLF be much of a difference in those 10%? realistically no.
If the killer is far away, the downed surv has 90%d his recovery so WGLF has no effect.
If the killer is close and you try to get WGLF recovery boost value you'll likely go down or trade places with your tm, so you end up getting no value.
BHVR has to learn some day, to stop making perks work as straight upgrades, but instead make perks a sidegrade to basekit. (if you do X side action, you get to use Y benefit, much like WGLF)
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@Mandy said:
The reason that FTP doesn't work with MFT is because you have to be healthy to use FTP and you have to be already injured for the benefits of MFT - as the perk is only active when you're injured. So you use FTP and become injured, hence the effects don't work...which is why we highlighted it on the patch notes because it was something that we listed as a bug in the reports on the PTB but didn't want to cause confusion for players.
This issue with Buckle up is the fact that its essentially "Previous perk but better"
Why use WGLF when it requires a token + only provides endurance to the picked up , when you have Buckle up doing it to both for the same ammount of time, without requiring a token?
Previous Buckle up was fine ,10% haste after being picked up for both.
Perk effects need to be unique and not fall into "previous perk but better" territory and were seeing this more and more, MFT is a better Dark Theory , BT was made absolete with the basekit BT mechanic, now Buckle up is a better WGLF...
If the goal at BHVR is to diversify the perk usage, yall should start by looking as to why certain perks are used and their effects, not make/turn previous perks into "I Win buttons"
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TM Power of 2 gives you 5% haste if you stay within 12m of the person you healed (they also get the buff too). for perception purposes, 12m is about shack wall to shack wall with an extra 1-2m. the perk is *very good*.
However it gets overshadowed by perks that have no activation requirement requirement or provide guaranteed personal value like MFT, Resi,Adren, Hope, WOO, Unbreak,SB,Lithe,DH etc etc.
Its impossible to make a case for using TM:PO2 When you have MFT giving you a permanent 3% with no requirement other than "oops the killer hit me"
The only way to make this perk be desirable is to rehaul the entirety of surv perks to include a time limit or a niche activation scenario must like this one.
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This issue isn't as much on trickster as it is on Map/Perk design.
Trickster has one of the quickest multi-down potential in the game aswell as tunnel potential
However, hes one of the killers that got hit the hardest with the MFT + resi meta , trickster slows down to 96% when throwing knives, which lets survivors gain distance on him, with MFTs 3% boost that gap is doubled.
Then you have the horrible map design, almost every single "loop" is tall, or just tall enough to make hitting shots impossible, not to mention High wall loops being within reach of most generators within 2-3 seconds of running distance.
For example, Suffocation pit is one of the WORST trickster maps to exist , pit has 5-6 long walls connected in the choke part which just makes hitting blades near impossible and denies his power all together.
You have to treat the disease, not the symptom, Theres only so many buffs you can give to a certain killer to make him viable against High MMR MetaSlaves and absolutely opressive and busted against the other 90% of the playerbase and buffing trickster would be like giving someone pain medication for a broken leg. Does it help? sure. does it fix the problem? No.
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@Mushwin said:
Sorry but surv mains have to deal with the constant gen regression perks etc.
Peak survivor entitlement right here...
"I dont like this subset of killer perks, so I DESERVE a survivor perk thats beyond busted"
Come on man, you have to be trolling.
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@WingerSenpai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3498462#Comment_3498462
Just asking (I seriously question the correct ammount) How many loops of that size exist with those conditions? And how many pallets are almost unplayable? Because in that case look at the opposite as well. Also scenarios exist where other killers fair better against different things too. And to the clip: a 99'd SB wouldve done the same.
And a comment to you looking at my post history: Ruin one was before it got reworked and BBQ gave 100% bp bonus for free so constant use and too much benefit for nothing, and I stay firm on the Wesker topic of him being overplayed, overloaded, and bugged via hitboxes, well the overplayed part until the last patch when my games consisted of 60-80% of them playing against Wesker. But nice try trying to look at my post history and making me look bad.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3498469#Comment_3498469
Okay then let's stay on topic:
Made For This is 1-3% Haste when Injured And 10 sec Endurance when healing a state (just have to heal to change the state not a full health state), can't be used while exhausted, but won't cause exhaustion, correct? As far as the wiki is correct, yes.
2 Things with the perk:
- 1 you have to be injured to make any use of it, so any form of exposed basicly breaks the perk any time you hit a healthy survivor and exposed perks are most of the times fair.
- Neither of the perks effects are useable while exhausted by any means, so you have a ton of ways to counter it the most relevant one being fearmonger or if the survivor is not the sharpest sometimes they counter themselves. Main point is it's a sort of risk reward perk, that you don't get an exhaustion perk with short term benefits but get a long term small boost.
Besides the perk you mention endurance from other perks. Why are they exactly hard to track of?
OTR: if you wanna make use of the 80 seconds renders you useless for your team for that duration, but people like to tunnel so that warrants the perks existance there,
BT: does this too but for 10 seconds with the speed boost lasting +10 seconds too so those are anti tunnel perks, which lose effect after literally touching anything that's objective related (gens/heals/totems etc.).
DH: needs to be timed and 0,5 second window is not the easiest to hit especially when the killer huddles up to you, and the perk can be used 2 times/survivor/game, and it gives a 40 sec exhaustion.
Styptic is 5 sec and eats a med-kit, so thats a variable.
Buckle up/MFT/Soul Guard/WGLF are the only ones that can confuse you, depending on who you hit but it's not impossible to comprehend it.
Also only 1 endurance can protect you at a time basicly besides Mettle of Man which overwrites a hit. But if you still look at it all of them have a condition still :)
The goal was to highlight a scenario where MFT blatantly bailed out a survivor and caused an undeserved chase extention. (you still failed to answer me as to what kind of counterplay there is to that)
Again, over the course of 5 seconds, a MFT survivor is 0.60m ahead of where they would be if they were perkless and thats enough to make a vault or drop a pallet without being hit *just because you have a perk equiped*
Also casual reminder that game balance has to be seen from a perkless perspective, the moment you go "well, bring perk X to counter perk Y" , you've admitted theres a balancing issue because guess what, if the counter perk is from a paid DLC you'll be forced to pay cash just to be able to keep up and that is not ok.
On the topic of Endurance effects , the only perk you mentioned that indeed DOES have a condition is WGLF, forcing you to get a flashy save , pallet save or prot hit before being able to use it. all the others work without a pre-requisite and that is not ok.
You have WGLF that forces you to do a side objective to gain endurance on ONE character, meanwhile Buckle Up gives it to both, for the same time, without needing a side objective, that is not balanced in the slightest.
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@WingerSenpai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3498175#Comment_3498175
Funny... Imagine complaining about a good survivor perk after a long time while killer perks are still somewhat rancid to this day. The fun part is that you also wanna say that hope is overpowered with it. It is a fine combination for it's price in my opinion, since no matter how you look at it that's half of a survivors loadout, which only comes to fruition in the end game basicly.
While killers can run perks that almost exclusively circumvent the survivors from getting that far. Look at all the gen regression perks that the killers have at their disposal and yet for some reason it is still enough to run 1-2 of those to cause pain.
Also killers who are actually good will not complain about this perk/combination because they will know that the survivor who runs this makes a mistake is dead and can capitalize on this.
Now to give you a point about the old DH. It is fair that it was nerfed because it was a free time waster one way or another. Or the time when survivors effectively bugged out with DH or negated a hit after it should've taken effect. This time MFT is not that bad,
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497464#Comment_3497464
As stated in here if you are bad it may save you like once or twice a game, but if you are good and consistent it wil look like that you are abusing the perk, but otherwise you shouldn't crack the whip over survivors because you will sound biased. Survivors nowadays don't get nearly as many chances with perks being good as killers.
But if the maps, tiles and buildings would be the way they used to be (infinites, loops that favor survivors horribly well) this complaint would be acceptable. But if I look at things the way you do but as a survivor main, then the following killer perks should be nerfed:
- SH: PR (just because 4*15% is too much)
- DMS (because why can it block any gens and why can it combo with PR)
- NOED (because it's boring and such an easy perk that gives almost a free kill or 2 if used at least decently)
- Eruption (because you still scream and 10 sec of aura read is too much)
- Jolt (because 10% for a down is too much)
- PGTW (Because 7-11*30% is too much)
yadi-yadi-yada... This list could go on for quite a while if I would be biased, but since I know that killer perks need to make a more significant impact that most survivor perks I'm not complaining half as much as some of the killers I met. Also besides killer perks, can we do a hot take on most killers basically spamming powers with close to 0 or very little cooldown just if we are at the point of complaining...
(Respect to the following killer tho: Huntress, because she actually needs way more mechanical skill because of aiming and punishability and Trapper for the limitation in resources)
I don't know why are the killers throwing tantrums constantly about survivor perks one at a time basically and getting stronger and stronger perks constantly yet survivors getting nerfs after nerfs but still having 2-3 good/strong perks is a sin. This reminds me more of a CoH state because it came in strong, all the killers started runing sloppy, and other heal slow down perks, the perk got nerfed to 50% self-heal speed, was still too strong, then along side with the second wave of nerfs making it a conditional empathy+botany*2 now its not nearly as good ever since the med-kits got gutted alongside the perks.
And let's take a word on killer add-ons:
- They offer various effects (not a bad thing, but the capability of stacking more than 3 effects on survivors by a single instance of killer power is just immense. , [Blindness, Exhaustion, Exposed, Hindered, Mangled, Hemorrhage])
- Some are overtuned for their rarity (Adrenaline Vial for Blight or Demo's Black Heart or Spirit's 2in1 add-ons buffing Haunt Duration/Speed/Recharge Rate [Finally got nerfed, Thank God] or Clown's speed slow add-ons)
- Some are completly useless, and/or irrelevant (multiple of Nurse's add-ons which have a better counterpart/are too niche/uncomfortable to use)
So if survivors get the treatment of "Let's make their items worse", then I think it's time for killers.
And I can already imagine that a lof of people seeing/commenting to my comment will be like: "You are the problem.", "Just another salty survivor main.". Call me what you want but it won't make me less entitled to my opinion. And keep in mind that the game can be just as dead without survivors as it can be without killers. So if survivors leave the game because it becomes far too killer sided killers can't play it either.
Please enlighten me as to what the counter play to this is : https://streamable.com/whcaot
Killer plays the tile perfectly, yet because that "loop" was around 16s, MFT gave the Ada an extra 2 meters of distance over perkless and got a chase extension.
I keep telling people in these threads, re-watch any recent dbd video/stream, and count how many times a survivor with MFT made it to a pallet/Window right just in the nick of time and caused an undeserved chase extension.
Also from your post history, I see you've complained about wesker being "same old same old" , and "the game is stale seeing BBQ and ruin 5/5 times" if you see a problem with repetition on one side , hopefuly you can see a problem with survivors bringing MFT+Resi with Hope/Adren/WOO sprinked in every trial.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497441#Comment_3497441
It's nowhere near as strong in practice as some are claiming it is in theory. Practice never works out the same as theory, survivors need to loop flawlessly and consistently throughout a chase to get the value out of MFT, while a Sprint Burst or a Dead Hard pays off in the second you use it. One wrong read, or one second caught on a corner of a loop, loses the chase.
3% Haste theoretically extends a chase by 20%. But for one thing, it entirely depends on the length of the chase as to whether or not that is impactful. 20% extra on a 5 second chase is 1 second, and it's highly situational as to whether or not that gives the survivors anything of value. But if that chase lasts for more than 15 seconds, then killer gets Bloodlust, which is 5% and outclasses MFT altogether. This serves as a hard cap on the value MFT can give you. You might get one extra loop out of it, which is essentially what every exhaustion perk has the potential to do when used correctly.
And that's the key point, using MFT correctly has a high skill floor, on par with being able to use a 99'd Sprint Burst mid-chase, and the survivors who can pull that off are going to out loop you anyway.
Like I said, MFT has given me no trouble at all. And on the odd times it has, I've been very clearly outplayed by the survivor, it's given them an edge, but it hasn't been the sole reason they've won.
MFT is no better than any Exhaustion perk, and survivors are allowed to get a half-decent perk every now and then. Shaking up the meta is a good thing.
2% haste would be extending a chase by around 13.3%, so you'd need to be chasing at least 8 seconds to gain any value out of it, while 1% extends a chase by a potential 6.6%, this is now requiring a chase of around 15 seconds to give the survivor one extra second, and 15 seconds is where Bloodlust kicks in. So effectively, 1% Haste is giving the survivor absolutely nothing.
Every survivor out here claiming "SB is better than MFT" yet every survivor runs MFT over SB.
Numbers wise, SB gives you a "6m boost" over perkless running, but this is a fairy tale scenario where you trigger SB and run directly away from the killer, which you can only reasonably do in an open area. Also have to keep in mind that SB triggers the moment you tap the sprint button , which forces you to walk most of the trial or gamble that the killer wont find you within the 40s recovery window.
On the other hand, MFT is a permanent 3% boost just for being injured, which translates to 0.12m/s. Now basic math, tells you that over FIVE SECONDS a survivor with MFT will be 0.60m (more than half a meter) ahead of a perkless survivor.
This is where the problem lies, being 0.60m ahead of where you would normally be, is the difference between making a pallet and extending chase for another 20+ seconds or going down , its also the difference between making a window vault or not.
the value in MFT doesn't come from straight line chases, its in the 5-10 second Jungle gym / TLs chases where you extend chases you otherwise couldn't because you made an extra 0.6m to 1.2m of distance.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497251#Comment_3497251
Do you just not understand how metas work? There will always be a killer meta, just as there will always be a survivor meta.
On the subject of high-very high skilled players, the game is not balanced around those players. The majority of changes made for this game are aimed at the lower end of the skill scale.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497266#Comment_3497266
That's just a worse version of Overcome.
Do you just not understand how metas work? There will always be a killer meta, just as there will always be a survivor meta.
On the subject of high-very high skilled players, the game is not balanced around those players. The majority of changes made for this game are aimed at the lower end of the skill scale.
We can identify a "meta" if the perks are so common on one side they can be essentially called basekit akin to old DH and DS. Right now the survivor meta is MFT+Resi , with a variation between Hope/Adren/Windows.
However, it would be pretty rough to identify a "killer meta" because certain killers synergize better with certain perks, and theres multiple playstyle options to choose from. Chase builds, aura builds, Gen regress builds, Hit n Run builds, etc etc.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497384#Comment_3497384
It's a chase perk and we should be outraged that it...sometimes helps during chases? Ok boss.
"Sometimes" applies to things like lucky break and smash hit.
"Always bails you out" is a more accurate descriptive term for MFT+Resi
And yeah, a perk always bailing you out in chases that by design you're intended to lose, is problematic.
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Dont assume someone is losing or someone "isn't good" because they identified a problematic perk.
Like i've stated before, if you want to see the MFT value, go watch a recent killer POV video/stream and count how many times the killer was one centimeter away from a hit, but got pallet stunned or a surv got a window vault. The pallet / Window they wouldn't have made without it and by consequence extended chase for another 20-30 seconds is the MFT value.
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@Yatol said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497297#Comment_3497297
just dont reply if you dont want to dicusse it, metaslaving is not ground for dismissal.
Metaslaving results in biased opinions, so it is indeed, grounds for dismissal atleast in topics related to the meta being discussed.
When a MFT+Resi Metaslave tries defending the perks its blatantly obvious that the only reason they do it is so they can keep their "I win" setup.
- Back in the day a 3% speed boost was called *subtle cheating* because as you might guess, it made loops near infinites, and thus broke the game.
- If a 2% warranted a boon and distance limit, then surely a 3% should have STRICTER requirements.
- Being able to pair MFT with ANOTHER exhaustion perk is busted beyond belief, MFT on its own has the ability to extend chase for 20-30 seconds, pair that with DH and as soon as the killer is about to hit you, you can extend for another 20-30 turning an otherwise 20 second chase into 1 minute plus thanks to MFT.
- Its basic common sense that an inevitable game event (getting hit) is not enough of an activation requirement for a 3% speed + 9% vault/Repair boost until healed.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497283#Comment_3497283
the name we're gonna live forever seems to imply living forever. I think its meant to be anti-slugging perk to prevent bleed out. it seems like the purpose of this perk was changed at some point or omitted from the game. that is very likely why the perk overlaps. originally, WGLF was bloodpoint BP gain perk like BBQ. it still has unique functionality to heal people quickly while in injured state, but perhaps this effect would be better if it granted 100% healing speed upon picking up a slug like We'll make it. healing quickly on the floor is better done by Zarina's perk, For the people. WGLF is not that great of a perk. it is little bit too situational of a perk.
Game is designed around 100% speed, anything over that breaks the core game.
like killer bloodlust on some loops? small amounts of haste can potentially be fair. very large amount of consistent haste with 100% up-time can be too strong if unchecked.
WGLF 4.3.0 rework (in 2020)
Perk changed from 25% stackable bonus BP to Perk now grants 10s endurance to the picked up.
WGLF is the embodiment of what perks should be, strong effect, but situational.
Agreed, Very large amounts of consistent haste with 100% up time are indeed too strong, MFT needs to be nuked.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497242#Comment_3497242
Perks that should not overlap. You mean Unbreakable and Soul guard thats both able to self pickup? The mechanic isnt that rich to make each perks completely different.
1 can do the job, the other one do that exact job but better, but requires something to make it work.
Its good for players to have choices and pick between “the same” perks.
Yes, it would be the proper balancing way, if a stronger version of a perk had a pre-requisite to make it work.
For example , Unbreakable is a 1 time pickup from slug that you can use anywhere on the map. Meanwhile boon exponential lets you pick yourself up unlimited times, BUT requires setting up a boon beforehand and being in the boon's radius - this is the correct way to have perk effect overlap.
On the other hand, you have the weaker WGLF that only provides endurance to the picked up IF you met the activation requirement OR Current Buckle up that provides endurance for BOTH the picked and the picker, with no activation requirement.
Another one is MFT providing a 3% Haste for essentially free, while Dark theory requires a boon and is range limited while providing 2% - this is the incorrect way to do perk effect overlaps.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497231#Comment_3497231
Yeah, this is difficult. I mean, I also take ages for the Skilled Huntress-achievement (because I am really not a "skilled Huntress"). But the reason why I dont get it is obviously Made for This and not me being really bad with her.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497233#Comment_3497233
The thing is, 3% Movement Speed are good. There is no discussion about it. But you cannot really get a diverse Meta when you are only cautious with creating Perks. Survivors did not get a good Perk in ages (when it comes to new Perks). The last time there was potential for a good Perk was Reassurance, but this did not leave the PTB in a useful way, because suddenly Killer players were worried about Survivors being hold hostage. And the result is a Perk which can find its use in SWFs, but is not good for Solos.
And with Made for This, there is at least an alternative to Exhaustion-Perks. And this is the right way to do, you cannot just force Survivors off Exhaustion Perks by making them all bad like Balanced Landing or Dead Hard. You should create an attractive alternative for them to use. And I see a good mix in my games with Made for This and Exhaustion Perks being used. Which I prefer over seeing 2-4 Sprint Bursts and the ones who dont run Sprint Burst running Lithe instead.
For the average Survivor Sprint Burst and Lithe are better anyway.
The only problem I see with Made For This is the stacking of Haste effects, mainly Hope in Endgame. But this is Hope doing the heavy lifting, Hope alone would be as problematic, but nobody really cared about it. And this can (and should) be fixed. But I think it is fine that Survivors get a strong Perk once every few years.
Okay, so you agree 3% haste from MFT is extremely strong, and theres no discussion to be had about it.
1 - There shouldn't be a "survivor meta" at all. having 4-5 perks that effectively work as a "I win" loadout is a very severe balancing problem and require toning down
2 - DH and balanced landing, at their current state are examples of very balanced perks. BL has a strict/uncommon activation requirement but can bail you out when used currectly, and current DH is a rewarded "Parry" type effect that requires skillful timing or prediction in order to get value.
You cannot be dictating balance around Low-Mid skilled players, because by the time you make a perk strong enough for Low-Mid players to get value, it will be busted and absolutely game breaking when used by High-Very High skilled players.
This is TF2 related, but hopefully it gets the point across : https://youtu.be/X1p42KtZOCw?t=204
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497183#Comment_3497183
WGLF
- Endurance for the slugged
- 100% recovering speed from healer
Buckle up doesnt
- Endurance for the slugged
- Endurance for the healer
Take away "Endurance for the healer" from Buckle up, what do you suggest for the missing ability?
Buckle up quite literally should have stayed the way it was, providing 10% haste for 10s for the picker and picked up.
Perk effects overlapping is not a good balance design, BHVR essentially merged MFT's secondary effect with WGLF's Main effect while also removing any type of activation pre-requisite and slapped it on buckle up.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497183#Comment_3497183
Or, Dark Theory is just a Trash Perk (it really is). And comparing it with Made for This only shows that the Devs were way too cautious with Perks back in the past. Because IF Dark Theory would actually be a strong effect, it would be used mroe often.
But well, currently Made for This is "The Thing" which makes Killers lose games. Not their own mistakes or anything, nono. And when Made for This is nerfed, there is another "The Thing" which is the reason why Killers lose games.
Made for This is worse than Sprint Burst and Lithe on the majority of Survivors which are commonly found in regular matches. There will be the odd case where Made for This is stronger on a Survivor because they are really good, but you wont encounter them on a regular basis. At least most Killers in this Forum, which clearly struggle with the game, dont encounter those players on a regular basis.
But again, Killers will just not stop complaining until the current "The Thing" is nerfed and they can complain about the next "The Thing". (Or just SWF, the ultimate Scapegoat)
The devs should have stayed being cautious with perk effects, back in the day 3% was considered subtle cheating and players with minimal experience in the game could identify a "different movement speed", and we still do.
Game is designed around 100% speed, anything over that breaks the core game.
Survivor mains are on this weird state of claiming MFT is "weak and worse than SB and lithe" while running it over SB and Lithe.
And Of course 3% wont have as much of an effect in Low mmr where survivors dont know how to loop and just run into every wall, but in the higher brackets it makes a normal 15-20 second chase take 50-60 , and that is equivalent to old DH for distance meta value.
The value of 3% is very difficult to identify while in the moment, but when you look back at VODs and videos and identify moments where the surv was an inch away from being hit but still made the pallet stun or got the window vault you and extended chase for another 10-20-30 seconds, that was 3% Value.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3497190#Comment_3497190
Please enlighten me how a perk that over half the time gets no value, and im sure you're aware of that, could be considered "off meta or second meta"
towards aura reading builds, it does following: "Point still remains, No perk should provide free, unconditional and permanent buffs to basekit.". so by your logic, distortion should be nerfed to not provide free, unconditional permanent buffs to base-kit towards aura reading builds. with your logic, every perk would be ineffective.
Its a perk made to counter another specific perk, its not "free, unconditional value" by the mere fact that if the killer doesn't bring an aura perk, you got a dead slot.
Your attempts at a "gotcha" moment are quite honestly lack luster, especially when I pointed out that distortion is a *counter perk* in the previous reply.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496598#Comment_3496598
distortion is free value. you start with 3 tokens to block aura and you get tokens as you get chased in TR so for vast majority of killers, you can be immune to aura. there is only select few where it won't protect you like scratch mirror, black incense and few other specific ones. distortion is like near meta. it is off-meta or side-meta. whatever you want to call it. I think you just don't like playing vs current meta perks and that is completely fine.
- Distortion is a "counter perk" , meaning it only comes into effect if the killer runs aura perks, otherwise your perk is equivalent to having brought nothing.
- even then , distortion only gets 3 uses, unless you're in the killers TR and can recharge tokens, but at that point its very likely you'll be seen either way.
Distortion has a pickrate in the last 28 days of about 7%
In comparison,
Windows 33%
Adren 27%
Resi 20%
MFT 19%
Please enlighten me how a perk that over half the time gets no value, and im sure you're aware of that, could be considered "off meta or second meta"
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@DavidHypnos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496751#Comment_3496751
Yes, and killers have powers. Don’t give me that 4 perks vs 16 bullcrap. They also get add-ons for those powers. They have a much faster movement speed. Killers have so many base advantages - that’s why it’s 4 vs 1.
Killers can also utilize their perks to work with their powers. Killer powers can also affect survivor items whereas survivor perks and items cannot affect killer powers.
Being injured isn’t “for free.” Stop pretending like it is. By the way, I never said MFT should give you the endurance. The 3%, however, is fine.
Plenty of killer players do just fine. I’m sorry you aren’t that great at the game. And I should just remind you it’s not a good argument to state that survivors shouldn’t have perks that reward them for “bad plays” while also stating they shouldn’t have perks for “good plays.” You pretty much killed your own argument there.
The end. Good game. Better luck next time (provided you take the time to actually improve.)
- The MFT 3% is not fine, when that 3% back then was considered subtle cheating, having a perk that enables you to "subtle cheat" is infact, a problem. that 3% boost breaks so many loops its not even funny.
- MFTs 3% directly affects 110s and low-mobility 115 killers disporportionately.
- Injured is free, its part of intentional game progression that you'll be hit once, get injured, then hit again. MFT and Resi provide extreme value inbetween those 2 hits which is where the problem lies. (With resi providing better value than PTS if you escape after the first hit)
- Dont assume someone is a "bad player" just because they point out a blatantly flawed perk even by dev logic. If a 2% demands a boon and limited range, then a 3% being free is a problem.
- Plently of killers did "just fine" vs old DH, but still old DH was problematic with the DH for pallet/Window/Distance mechanic.
Im perfectly fine with perks that reward you for good plays, WGLF is a good example of a perfectly balanced perk on its own, you get a flashy, take a prot hit, etc etc, and you get the ability to use the perk.
Current Buckle up is the opposite, it provides the same endurance as WGLF, also applies to the healer, and doesn't require any previous "play" to enable it. Its a straight upgrade to the base mechanic of picking someone off the ground. This is problematic.
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@DavidHypnos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496552#Comment_3496552
Survivors also have to bring perks to counter killer perks - that’s the way the game works. Made for This is a 3% speed boost when you need it the most rather than having to be in a certain range after blessing a totem that can be extinguished. I’m not going to argue with you any further as you clearly know nothing of how to balance this game.
No, its not how the game works and by design it cannot be, otherwise, as stated before, theres an underlying balancing problem.
If you have to spend 10$ to get a character in order to unlock their perks to stay competitive / Up to date with the current meta, that is not ok and needs to be adressed.
Survivors need to worry less about killer perks due to the fact that
- theres only 1 killer with 4 perks.
- Killer perks currently revolve around Aura close/aura far or Gen defence , with a couple of Chase oriented perks like Bambozle while stronger Hex perks can be removed from play without requiring a specific perk to find them.
- There isn't a single "assumed killer basekit build" like MFT+Resi , or Hope and Adren for survs (or Old DH for example).
Thanks for once again, stating the absurdity of MFT granting you a 3% boost PLUS endurance on any healing action for free when a previous perk that provided 2% required a boon + Limited range.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496592#Comment_3496592
1, you said survivors stay healthy good amount of time in game (to get value out of resi, because it's "unconditional" as you stated at beginning). I just showed you it's not necessarily true and it's actually false for killers I enjoy. Did you perhaps quickly swapped topic to made for this?
2, ok I misunderstood you. Now I think I get it. The missing part here is survivor 2 will heal survivor 1 so he's not liability of quick down making 3/4 of survivors healthy (or possibly even 4/4 if you didn't manage to injure yet)
3, no. You read just part of the sentence. The most important thing is something you dropped. You shouldn't chase people that use MfT AND are good enough (against you), that you will not catch them in 30s (otherwise these people would get better value from sprint/lithe). There's huge difference. Also - I propose to chase absolutely normally. Most of the time I can't even tell someone is using MfT (ping at falling for mind games are much more impactful then those 3%).
4, well. Only if that scourge hook did 3% regression. That about sums up the strength of this combo when I encounter it. Sure, sometimes it robs me of hit, but it's quite rare.
Also again - it's not permanent buff basekit. It needs you to be injured and for MfT also not exhausted. You keep forgetting these. And there are powers/perks/addons that circumvent it altogether. But even if you don't use those, the 3% difference usually don't change anything
- People will still get off hook while injured, Resi and MFT will still work off hook even if you get a chainsaw down to begin with, ghostface mark, etc etc. Not to mention, if you dont insta pick them up, or they get rescued via flashy or pallet stun they will still have MFT Resi value without the hook.
- Surv 1 will still most likely just get the 99 heal for the perk effects + free healthstate or not accept the heal to get resi gen boost.
- People with enough hours in the game can tell whos running just a tad bit faster, if before MFT people could accurately spot a subtle cheater, they can spot the same 3% speed.
- MFT and resi can result in a pallet stun you wouldn't have made, or a window vault you wouldn't have gotten and as such a chase extention of 20 or more seconds, it would be the equivalent of the scourge perk that makes all perks a white hook knocking off 20 % of a gen.
Again, Its a permanent buff to basekit, because by definition you WILL go trough an injured state in the match, multiple times.
Reminder again, that having to bring perk X to counter Y is evidence of an underlying balancing problem. not everyone has every single perk, or every single character, being FORCED TO PAY REAL MONEY, to have access to certain perks and killers in order to counter the current survivor meta is not ok.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496559#Comment_3496559
i am referencing your post in regards to
Point still remains, No perk should provide free, unconditional and permanent buffs to basekit.
perks try remain as general as possible but killer perk are always prone to anti-power synergy. sometimes purposeful, other times coincidental. the point that meta perk are almost always consistent and the associated perks trigger every single game or near enough every game.
You've sucessfully identified the problem with current survivor meta, the perks provide a general buff , provide consistent value and come into effect every single game.
WGLF and distortion is the perfect example of a balanced perk, by doing alternative and risky actions you get value from the perk.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496533#Comment_3496533
1, your premise is not always true. I play mostly chase bubba - meaning I mostly M2 survivors. As I don't camp, it means survivors will be vast majority of time healthy. Then I play spirit - and once I injure you, you will go down rather quickly. Then I play pinhead with STBFL - right after hit I chain for very quick down. People will be healthy majority of time of the game.
2, your example with 3 survivors indicates you camp significantly often. Not all of us do that, because a, you will hit the spot where it will suddenly not work (and you can cry genrush all you want - because you literally let 3 people work for a minute on 3 gens so it's your bad) b, it's boring c, you won't get better if you don't play the game - staying on a single spot is not playing.
3, hit&run absolutely are NOT affected. If you hit&run, it means you are not chasing and instead creep up on survivors and hit them when they don't expect it or go away. In fact against hit&run sprint burst is infinitelly much better, because it's almost impossible to sneak upon such a survivor without him getting away (which absolutely is not true for MfT). In fact as a survivor you need to chase on average for at minimum 30s until sprint/lithe give you less value then MfT. There's also a hint that if you can't get survivor within 30s, you should change targets anyway. Meaning you shouldn't really be chasing people that use mft correctly.
4, but it's cool you finally acknowledged, that there actually is condition. All perks for both sides always have condition. The perk that's least conditional is probably bond - and even that one does not work if survivors are too far away (plus the effect isn't even that crazy good).
- if you have to play Specific killer X in order to nullify a perk, it indicates the perk is not balanced for the rest of the cast.
- Thats literally how the game goes, you get hook 1 , chase and try to down 2, while 3 goes for save, by definition, hook 1 will get off the hook in the injured state.
- If you "shouldn't be chasing people that use mft" and everyone is running MFT at the moment, how exactly are you suppose play the game if you use a chase killer. (Do not suggest perk loadouts, because as i've stated, not everyone has all the perks at their disposal and it signifies an underlying balancing problem if you need to bring X to counter Y).
- Like i've stated before, Resi+MFT are the equivalent to a scourge hook making all hooks a white hook, you'd be expected to get value out Scourge hook because per game design, you're meant to get injured and in contrast, get hooked, hence being injured is not a valid condition for a permanent buff to basekit.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496536#Comment_3496536
Jolt triggers on M1 downs only , some killers can't even use the perk at all or cannot use their main power
then that means that particular perk is not good on that particular killer. remember killer are all different while survivors are all same. billy for example can use pop if he seeks regressions. my point being is that all particular popular perks are generally hyper consistent with potent enough effect to select it. so idea that every perk needs timer or weird conditions is silly. that is textbook for how to make bad perks.
You point out that X perk is "unconditional value" , then admit Killer perks require the condition of certain specific killers...
Then you agree that the popular perks are hyper consistent with potent effects (Which by all means, is the identifier for an overpowered perk).
Am I missing something here?
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@DavidHypnos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495855#Comment_3495855
Plenty of counterplay. Don’t down someone near a pallet if they can crawl to it before you can pick them up. Pallets are not a finite resource anyway. If they’re running MFT the downed survivor won’t be given endurance. Only WGLF and Buckle Up will do that. You never know what someone else is running and you have to make tough decisions due to this. When you learn what they can do you adapt.
Resilience is not good enough to warrant staying injured all the time unless you’re running a No Mither build. Self-Care can definitely help you with the 99 but that itself is a time wasting perk unless you’re running BK as well and then you have 3 slots used up for one situational advantage. Plenty of killer powers, perks, and add ons can make you undetectable or survivors oblivious and getting the jump on those using the selfcare/resilience build is the best way to counter it. You can also just negate MFT and Resilience through use of exposed.
Dark Theory is universally known to be a bad perk. It can pair well with others but if a perk can’t stand up on its own it’s not good. You have to spend time blessing a totem whose area of effect is very limited and can easily be distinguished by the killer all for a 2% haste which will make a difference in about 2% of your matches. It’s not worth running unless it’s stacking with other hastes or other boon perks.
It’s weird to me seeing so many killer players that are able to counter these styles of play since you say they can’t be. Even in situations where the killer is disadvantaged it’s not hard for them to get back up on the horse. Same with survivors - getting hooked isnt the end for them, losing a survivor isn’t the end for you.
"just dont down them near a pallet 4head"
do you have any idea how many pallets spawn in some maps? not to mention survivors literally B-lining to a tile.
and like the example i've stated above, you have someone with a flashlight waiting for the open area pickup to get a free flashy save. Meaning you have to chase the flashy and concede the possible pallet crawl.
"Plenty of killer powers, perks, and add ons can make you undetectable or survivors oblivious and getting the jump on those using the selfcare/resilience build is the best way to counter it. You can also just negate MFT and Resilience through use of exposed."
The game is balanced around a Perkless state, if perks require counter perks, theres a severe underlying balancing problem.
Not every killer has insta downs , and having to bring X perk to counter survivor meta is not a balanced game state, because as you might guess, some people dont have ALL the perks at their disposal.
"Dark theory speed boost bad"
If the speed boost was that bad, I wonder why people run MFT. Surely isn't for the free haste uh.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496490#Comment_3496490
Point still remains, No perk should provide free, unconditional and permanent buffs to basekit.
the perks that killer's use are free unconditional value. they just have auxiliary qualities to maximize their value. Like if you play killer well, you will proc pain res on average at least couple times per match but in order to get max value, you need to chase all 4 survivors. it is still free value. same with jolt, same with sloppy and any other perk top used perk. MFT auxiliaries qualities are being injured and not using exhaustion. you just don't like going against it. you likely wish there was a killer perk that nullified its value. maybe one day killer will have a perk that gives minor amount of haste to accommodate killer players that have dreadful dislike of the perk. for now, you can still win vs MFT players with most killers with enough experience. It is slightly harder chases.
Resilience, Deja vu and Adrenaline are unlikely to change. besides deja vu, those perks are ancient and have stayed same for long time.
Common knowledge that a 110 killer chasing around a Long wall Gym or T/L will have a hard time playing said tile , however, MFT + resi turns these tiles from hard to impossible just because you got outplayed and hit.
110% m/s killer are generally designed around having strong chase at tile-sets and strong way to mitigate distance gain. If they don't do that well, then it means their power is not good enough to warrant being 110 in first place meaning their power needs improvements.
> Like if you play killer well, you will proc pain res on average at least couple times per match
Pain res is on a scourge hook condition, sometimes the white hooks dont spawn where you found a surv and downed them (theres only 4 of them) + the chance of hitting a fresh gen with a 25% and wasting the use. Value is quite literally not guaranteed.
>same with jolt, same with sloppy and any other perk top used perk.
Jolt triggers on M1 dowms only , some killers can't even use the perk at all or cannot use their main power , like nurse , bubba, hillbilly ,huntress, trickster etc. effect is limited to a 32m radius around the M1 downed person sometimes triggers on non-progressed gens, meaning it was 0 value.
can be countered by simply running away from your gen, takes you about 8 seconds to make enough distance from the gen to not get it hit with an 8% regression.
Sloppy - Only triggers on M1 attack If you got injured you're most likely being chased, if you're being chased, you're going down by game design, perk literally had no effect during the chase. again, same killer restrictions as Jolt to proc the effect.
Perk adds a mere 4 seconds to heal time, meaning you have only 4 extra seconds to interrupt a heal, thats all the "value" is concentrated at, a mere 4 second window to interrupt a heal , across the map.
MFT and Resi will still activate regardless of m1, m2 or insta down , will still be providing value out of hook, you can 99% the heal with a medkit and get perk value + full health value for free.
You've still failed to come up with a killer perk that buffs basekit permanentely.
like i've said previously, MFT and resi is the equivalent of pop making ALL of your kicks regress 30% after getting ONE hook.
I'll give you a free one, you have Brutal strength that makes Breaks and gen kicks go a bit faster, with no requirement.
but the effect is so minimal its not even worth the perk slot.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496482#Comment_3496482
So being injured is not a condition. Got it. Then corrupt - it's about as much NOT time limited. Easy....
Again, thats the same as if a scourge hook perk made all hooks a white hook, needing a white hook to trigger the perk wouldn't be much of a condition , because well, you're quite literally by design meant to get 7-8 hooks.
And by design, in order to get those 7-8 hooks the team is going to be injured a good portion of the match.
- Surv 1 gets injured, downed goes on hook.
- Surv 2 goes for save , surv 1 is injured off hook, meanwhile surv 3 is chased takes a hit and gets injured.
And in between injured and going down, youre getting value out of the perk.
Stealth Killers playing hit n run get screwed over by MFT and Resi because they essentially BUFFED the survivor they hit.
And as a cascading effect, if killers in order to win cannot play a weaker killer, they will gravitate to stronger killers or tunneling someone out at 5 gens , people want to have fun as much as anyone else, but when a certain playstyle BUFFS the other side indirectly, it doesn't have as much appeal.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495745#Comment_3495745
Killers complaining about getting outplayed in chase: "chases aren't supposed to last more than 30 seconds or it's unfair. You're meant to get hit"
Killers complaining about perks that help when injured: "why are survivors rewarded for their mistakes"
Am I meant to lose chases or not? Or does it depend on what perks I'm running?
The game is designed around a 60% Killrate, or 7-8 Hooks.
By design 2 people are meant to die while 2 are meant to escape, with the escapees having 1-2 hook states on them.
By design Tiles are balanced around 115/110 vs 100, any deviation will benefit one side extremely hard.
Common knowledge that a 110 killer chasing around a Long wall Gym or T/L will have a hard time playing said tile , however, MFT + resi turns these tiles from hard to impossible just because you got outplayed and hit.
Point still remains, No perk should provide free, unconditional and permanent buffs to basekit.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495672#Comment_3495672
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495785#Comment_3495785
Funny it's YOU who talk about mental gymnastics. I don't care about your judgement of every killer perk being fine or weak and every survivor perk being busted. That's just your entitlement talking and I don't give a damn about that.
The important thing is you set some arbitrary "rule that should be followed" = perk should give conditional value and doing objective does not count and literally defend your unconditional/doing just objective perks in a next post. Double standards at it's FINEST. Quite frankly people like you should be ignored - and I don't care if they are on survivor's side or killer's side.
Also - I was not defending any perk. I was talking about your arbitrary "rule" only. That's just a sidenote to your "mental gymnastics"
You cannot name one single killer perk that provides you with free, unconditional and non-time gated value, because thats how all perks should be, they help you in certain scenarios, without being a straight buff to basekit.
MFT and Resi are the opposite, they are free, unconditional and permanent value that you get because you inevitably got hit.
MFT and Resi is the equivalent of making Pop permanently making your kicks regress 30% after getting 1 hook state on someone.
This is survivor main mental gymnastics when you try to point out killer perks as a type of "gotcha" moment, but fail to realize killer perks have strict requirements and can be countered unlike the surv perks mentioned above.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495985#Comment_3495985
No perk should exist thats so good it makes others not even worth considering since they buff surv basekit so much.
that is very Utopia world. there is always going to be some particular meta perk that shines above all others. its matter of how you adapt to what is being used and then there is something that I like to call the axis of evil and good. Axis of evil and good is what people believe is good or bad for the game. What is evil and what is good is entirely subjective to each player and it does not reflect of power-level of how strong something is. it only reflects on whether you enjoy or dislike playing against it. an example is of something that is evil for most player is 3 gens. 3 gens might not be strong or effective to win but they are generally dislike therefore they are evil. Likewise, if something is good, then people like it. for example, a survivor might think that a healing perk like self-care is a good perk. they like being healthy.
Perks should encourage different playstyles in order to bring variety to the game.
these perk do encourage play-styles. Deja vu encourages gen-rush as play-style and MFT & Resilience encourage looping as a play-style. they are encouraging a different play-style. every perk does.
When survivors complain about facing wesker 5x in a row, they forget that the wesker probably played 5 games against 3-4 people (15-20 Survivors) running MFT + Resi builds in the same time frame.
I mean facing same killer means lack of killer variety because other killer are not enjoyable to play for X reasons. Many killer have weak chases so having strong empowered chasing perks will make weaker killer with bad chase be less enjoyable to play. it is just logical outcome.
these perk do encourage play-styles. Deja vu encourages gen-rush as play-style and MFT & Resilience encourage looping as a play-style. they are encouraging a different play-style. every perk does.
Gen rush is an inherentely anti-game "playstyle", might aswell play gen repair simulator 2023 at that point.
MFT and Resi dont "encourage" a looping playstyle, its a "Run 3 times around this pallet, drop, Hold shift W until next loop because killer can't catch me because of my 3%".
The tiles are designed for 110/115 vs 100 speed and any deviation will break them, you cannot defend MFT and Resi having no requirement besides "You got caught and hit, now enjoy being uncatchable".
I mean facing same killer means lack of killer variety because other killer are not enjoyable to play for X reasons. Many killer have weak chases so having strong empowered chasing perks will make weaker killer with bad chase be less enjoyable to play. it is just logical outcome.
So we can agree that survivor MFT+Resi meta is actively pushing people to play stronger killers. Of course people would play killers that can catch up or counter near infinites.
Because as we all know, playing trapper or wraith vs 4 MFT+Resi survs is almost impossible, and made even worse when they get +7% from hope.
Im sorry, but MFT+Resi is undefendable in its current state.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
Alternative abilities with the Movement and Action speed perks being on a timer or another activation requirement that doesn’t directly progress the game.
that would make those action speed and m/s perks not worth using. they would be too weak. an example of action speed perk that nobody uses is new Thalita perk Friendly competition. it grants 5% repair bonus for 75 seconds. according to nightlight, 0.54% players use it. timer based perks and perks like boon:dark theory are too situational. players will not use perks that suck or are situational.
Thats quite literally the point, to weaken them and make them situational.
No perk should exist thats so good it makes others not even worth considering since they buff surv basekit so much.
Friendly competition is a very balanced perk by all intents and purposes, requires you to FINISH a gen with a teammate, then the repair speed boost is timed.
Perks should encourage different playstyles in order to bring variety to the game.
When survivors complain about facing wesker 5x in a row, they forget that the wesker probably played 5 games against 3-4 people (15-20 Survivors) running MFT + Resi builds in the same time frame.