Valuetown
Valuetown
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@Cataca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885933#Comment_3885933
Have you not been here when so many survs go next on original Skullmerchant? Nurse? Legion?
Its honestly baffling you think Survs don't go next on a killer they don't like
Release legion was admitted to be an issue on release. Even content creators like Noob3 DC'd against that killer. I'm not condoning that behavior, but those are the facts. A good nurse is a good nurse. There is no counterplay. I'm not condoning that behavior, but those are the facts. Release skull merchant was a horrible 45 minute slog because the 3 gen system was not in place and her drones acted differently. I'm not condoning that behavior, but those are the facts.
Those are very extreme edge cases. Would you care to give examples of that on a day to day basis against a killer like pig or freddy?
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886084#Comment_3886084
Then why are you asking for a practically perfect system (and yes you we're practically asking: "If any player is wrongfully punished by this system, it is a failure.")? Some of your "what ifs" are odd, such as first one in the opening for example can be solved by the simple timer and the emergency one via common sense. There are many plays that could be seen as throwing but are helpful, but in the same breath they can also be used to give up. After all whats to stop the one who wants to give up from body blocking and taking the killers agro to die? At what point does repeatedly pointing at the hook (with/without someone on it) go from trying to communicate to being a troll? From what we understand you want specifically for the "go next" system to be thoroughly thought out and cooked. Thats fine, but we're of the opinion that they should be together.
If the root of your concern is a lack of info why not ask for details on it instead of immediately trying to get 1 system before the other (and to our knowledge nothing has been said if 1 or both will happen first anyway, looks to be at the same time)? You simply made an argument with your reasons for having the surrender option first. You're welcome to ask for one first but don't go picking at us about unknown details when your in the dark just like the rest of us.
To the "which system is pulling weight" paragraph we have 2 questions. "Don't they deal with relatively separate issues?" and "Does it truly matter?"
For the 1st question: From what we've read the "give up" system is aimed at 4 bots/4 slug situations. From what we've read the "go next" system is for those who give up via getting killed. Why would they need to gauge?
For the 2nd question: With only the "give up" system as we said people can still "go next" free of charge as they currently can via self swing, walk to killer, yada yada. With only the other survivors are stuck in a match bleeding out or the killer is stuck in a match with 4 bots of which misery abounds. Having both these stops both ends of pain. In addition because these tackle separate things from what we can see so does it truly matter that both are in at once?
Having concerns about either system is very valid, we do however question some of these reasonings of trying only to get 1 first since they can and probably will need tested and fixed.
Depends on what you mean by "randomly". Should we know what triggers it then happily as many times as we did trigger it because it was told to us what triggered it. If its actually random then none because we wouldn't know what triggered it. When the system comes around then we'll be able to see what triggers it in more detail and have new opinions. At the current place in time its just jumping the metaphorical shark.
Despite your claim that it's "common sense," I've given examples on it not being the case, which is my entire point. Something YOU or even the developers think as an "all encapsulating" system would wrongfully punish players who inevitably do things that were outside of your predefined "acceptable" criteria.
If a survivor is allowed to surrender, it may dissuade them from going next, as they now have a valid avenue to leave the match. It's really that simple.
The part about punishment systems is that most do not give a verbose reason as to why action was taken, and especially so if your action did not have the intention of "going-next." "Jumping the metaphorical shark" is wrong. I simply asked if you would like it if this system wrongfully punished you. This isn't an exercise in the system's implementation, but the outcome.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885914#Comment_3885914
- The one not recently unhooked would not be penalized because they would be out of the timeframe. When someone gives up by running to the killer what do they do? They sit there. Thats the kind of timeframe we're talking about. If they go down within the timeframe of hit-wipe-hit then its very clear that person has either given up or gone afk. The timer doesn't need to be tied to the unhook as well. If the timer starts on a hit then that second example would be penalized if they strictly gave up and only penalize that third example if they took a down via standing still. All this said, your point was SPECIFICALLY about a BT body block.
- As we said, we don't know how its going to work so unless you have information that we don't know about and aren't sharing we see this (farm matches) as a non issue until we have more info. How many pointings does it take to get the message across [a tootsie pop commercial is playing somewhere]? The emotes require some minimal brain power and a willingness to listen to the other player. If it takes 3 or more pointings then yes, we have no mercy for that.
- True that not all killers do this (thank the entity) but again, we don't know whats going to happen with this system. Will it be off if all but 1 is on hook? Will it show no mercy? That first one will allow the 3 to die quicker on hooks, the later wont. As for the second half, to each their own opinions then but we'll happily go on record typing that the hook skillchecks aren't very hard after the first few hrs playing the game (bar actual handicaps which should be an accessibility worry).
This is going to sound a bit rude so I apologize on our behalf but guess what? Nothing is perfect. Theres going to be flaws in both systems and testing them both together would (atleast to us) be the better idea as they're both going to be in the game together anyway. Theres also the fact that only putting 1 at a time has flaws. For example: If only the surrender is added, what if 1 person wants to surrender and the other 3 dont? That single survivor can go run to the killer, point to a hook or something, and promptly try and die. Without the "go-next" prevention they get to do so free of charge and thats what they're heavily likely gonna do if they're the type that these things are trying to curb. Theres similar situations as this. We're sure you can fill out the opposite number of "what if they added only the "go-next" first".
My point about bt was to show you that there are hundreds of "what if" scenarios that all cannot be accounted for with one system. To focus on the bt example as my point shows you are missing the forest for the trees. There are many plays that, in a vacuum, seem like a player is throwing or wanting to go next. I actuality, these plays are trying to save another player or allow the rest of their team to win.
Not knowing how something will be implemented is the root of my concern. It's all fine and dandy to say "oh this is what our system will do," but when you actually get down to the brass tacks, you need to know how it's implemented, down to the very last detail. This is programming. There is no room for ambiguity when it comes to a system that hands out punishments to players in an automated fashion.
Your last paragraph misses the point about not being able to differentiate which system is pulling the weight. If you have both systems, you cannot accurately gauge which system is preventing players from wanting to go next. I never had the delusion that any system up for implementation would be free of flaws, but my concern with this system is that its flaws will outweigh its benefits. I understand that a lot of people that play this game have a very heated opinion on people going next and want a fix now, but to hurry and rush out a massively flawed system to the detriment of the game and the community is not the way to go about it.
Would you be for this automated system still if hypothetically it decided randomly that you were going to be falsely flagged for "go-next" behavior? If not after one occurrence, how many times?
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885949#Comment_3885949
The surrender system and anti-go-next system in my opinion do not solve the same things. The surrender system will stop unwinnable matches from being dragged out significantly, while the go next prevention will stop people from quitting early, resulting in a lot of unwinnable matches.
I assume the system will likely be built to minimise false positives, since banning people over nothing would be a pretty terrible system. I doubt it'd be active in the cases of giving up to give your teammates hatch (which is probably the only valid tactical case for going next). If it is, then that'd be a bad thing, but the idea of a system like this is a good one, it just needs to be implemented well.
Going Next is a separate pain point than getting bled out.
Even if these systems are in place, do you really think they will stop players from going next? They will find new ways, whether anyone likes it or not.
I think these systems would significantly reduce the instances of such a thing happening, just like how the disconnect penalty reduced the number of disconnects significantly.
It would not completely eliminate going next, since people have free will to do what they so wish, but saying we shouldn't implement a system because it might be subverted in some way or won't have 100% efficiency doesn't make sense. Tweaks can be made to prevent new ways that might pop up for people to circumvent the penalty.
And if worse comes to worse, people will just stop playing.
That's probably a good thing.
If you're going next all the time, then that's a pretty big indicator that the game isn't really all that much fun for you anymore. Picking and choosing only super favourable lobbies is not a thing you should be able to do, you should not be able to instantly tap out the second the game isn't going your way, or if it's a killer you dislike, etc. It just ruins the game for the 4 other people still in the lobby.
On top of that, if being made to play out trials to completion is genuinely that unbearable for so many people that the player count starts to significantly drop, then that'll really light a fire under the developers to fix gameplay issues for good.
There's a good amount of people that have an unhealthy relationship with this game. They keep subjecting themselves to trials they find unfun and immediately tapping out in the hopes that they'll find that one fun trial eventually. If this gives them the push to finally quit the game that they don't really find fun anymore, that's a positive for everyone.
It provides motivation for the devs to address issues, prevents people that still actually enjoy the game from having their matches ruined, and pushes burnt out players to find something better to do with their time.
They are attempting to solve the same issue - people are not having fun in matches, and these systems are attempting to allay those problems while not solving the issues behind it. That is the core problem. People wouldn't want to surrender or go next if there were bounce back mechanics both survivor and killer, or if the more unfun mechanics were overhauled or removed, or if more fun and interactive mechanics were introduced.
In my opinion, the surrender option should trigger if 1) everyone is slugged, and 2) if one person is sacrificed or mori'd and the number of gens remaining is at least 1 greater than the number of remaining survivors. For example, a blight tunnels someone off hook and there are still 4 gens left in the match with 3 survivors left alive. A survivor should be able to go into the escape menu and press the "Surrender Match" button, and a simple majority will determine the outcome (in this case 2 out of the 3 survivors). In the current state of DBD, everyone knows that this match is unwinnable unless the blight player massively messes up.
I don't agree with the scapegoat that "people have an unhealthy relationship with this game" as a valid excuse to have them leave the game because they aren't having fun with it. No, it's not "a good thing." The opinions of the players that have been around since 2016 should be just as valid as those that joined during resident evil's first DLC release. If someone has 5k hours and is no longer having fun with the game, the question of "why now" arises. Out of those 5k hours, why is it now they are bored of it? Why not 1k hours prior or even 2k hours prior? At a certain point one has to look at the obvious changes that have been favoring killer and reason that they might have something to do with it. People want to play this game. Blaming those players for, in my opinion, a lackluster 2 years of development doesn't do anyone any good.
I think these systems would significantly reduce the instances of such a thing happening, just like how the disconnect penalty reduced the number of disconnects significantly.
This is exactly how we got to the go-next problem: disconnect penalty introduced → go-next increased to get around it. The same thing will happen with these new systems, until a new problem presents itself.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885933#Comment_3885933
I mean obviously it's only in my experience, but I constantly get people going next at 5 gens just because they're first downed, they don't like the killer, etc. There is no rhyme or reason to it, they're just upset. I've had people go next at 1 or 2 gens left when we have a huge advantage.
I can't count the amount of winnable, or even winning games that have been ruined by someone going next. I'm glad the developers are finally doing something about it.
And like I said, the whole point of my post was to gradually introduce systems to see if they are addressing player pain points. Introducing multiple systems that attempt to tackle the same issues 1) prevents any meaningful and concise data on which systems are performing their desired goals, 2) to what extent these systems are performing their desired goals, and 3) wrongfully penalizing players for making legitimate and valid plays because said systems will always be imperfect.
I dislike people leaving winnable matches as much as the next person, but any logical, scientific, and common sense view of these proposed systems would have them be added in phases and not all at once, and definitely not added if they in fact are not needed. Even if these systems are in place, do you really think they will stop players from going next? They will find new ways, whether anyone likes it or not. And if worse comes to worse, people will just stop playing. And not just the people who go-next, but people who have long since grown tired of a game that doesn't even know the source of its myriad of gameplay problems.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
Nah, we've needed a Go Next prevention system for too long.
The majority of situations in which people go next (at least in my experience) are not because the match is unwinnable, but because it's a killer they don't like.
Any proof for that claim? I rarely ever see someone just run at a killer they don't like. The majority of the time I see people go-next is after another player makes a massive blunder, essentially losing the entire game for the survivors.
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@Rulebreaker said:
Honestly we feel they should be put at the same time.
To the points:- It would be easy enough to implement it to know the difference between letting the killer have you and taking a bodyblock hit from bt. A short countdown would do.
- For an emergency the player should probably be afk if its an actual emergency and not be pointing at the hook. Farm games would take a hit true, but those are heavily rare outside events and if push came to shove they could disable it during events (and cause all kinds of hell).
- As killers are unfortunately already slugging to bypass this its rather moot…as for if they can't hit skill checks thats something new players have to learn and having the game on mute won't affect that unless that survivor is not paying attention. Theres a point where genuine concerns bleed into outlandish worries.
The above said, it again depends on how they implement the systems. They could do a good job or the expected job, till we have details on them its just a guessing game.
[In a hilarious way its like how killers abused camping and 3 genning and got those smacked.]
For your first point: imagine two different survivors, one with bt who was recently unhooked and another survivor who is injured but was not recently unhooked. Your proposed solution would be to penalize the survivor who does not have bt, and not to penalize the player with bt because of a short cooldown. Now imagine that the same survivor with bt was trying to unhook themselves to go next or was not saved the first 70 seconds on hook and now wants to leave the game. That player is running to the killer to exit the match, but the system will not penalize them because of your proposed solution. Likewise, a player who is injured but not on their final hook stage is running to body block a killer from tunneling a survivor on death hook. That player will be penalized while trying to actively make a good play. I completely disagree that the solution is easy, as this example shows.
For your second point: so just because farm games are rare means it's okay to make them extinct with this change? Farm games are a wonderful breath of fresh air that remind a lot of players that we're all here to have fun. What about a player who points at a hook to let the survivor ON the hook know to follow them? Again the ambiguity of the TWO emotes we have in this game to coordinate with random survivors will be negatively affected by this system.
For your third point: just because some killers slug to avoid this game state does not mean that all killers do. I still see this sort of game state at least a few times a day. Also, what about after 20 seconds have passed and the skill checks are getting harder to hit? I completely disagree that this is an "outlandish worry" due to how the mechanics work, but you're free to have that opinion.
Even if a system has a million "but if, but if, only if, only if, etc." to curb bad player behavior, there will still not be enough cases covered to guarantee that any player is not wrongfully punished for a behavior they did not do. If any player is wrongfully punished by this system, it is a failure.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3884432#Comment_3884432
how do you mean they’re different though? What makes them different? One is 20% from a vault and the other is 150% after landing the vault. Why not take the 150% it’s higher than the 20%, they’re both vaulting actions.
Because finesse is vaulting speed, lithe is haste after the vault is complete. Lithe does not change the default vault speed, and finesse does not give you haste. They serve two separate functions, finesse for quicker vaults, lithe for distance after vaulting.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880925#Comment_3880925
I mained survivor few years ago and I did pretty well, could loop killers, team mates would do gens, escaped about half the time. Assuming my MMR is low for survivor which it could very well be as I'm not a survivor main anymore. how does one get the MMR up in solo if no one does gens? I could get hatch but hatch doesn't raise MMR
If you mained survivor prior to 6.1.0, take your escape rate and subtract 30% from it. I also highly doubt nobody is doing gens. It's more likely that the matchmaker unfortunately paired you with two incompetent teams in a row.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
Recently I have been soloq and firstly there has been minimal issues with slugging or tunneling. But I have noticed that literally no one will do gens. My last match I did 4 gens on my own while the other 3 survivors were doing who knows what. What makes it confusing is they all had tool boxes, possibly try to sabo the hooks? But every match is the same tonight, if I don't do gens then killer ends up 4k at 5gen because no one will touch gens. Why can't I get matches like this as killer lol instead I get swf constantly that not only do gens but they do them pretty efficiently.
I have tried getting some sort of explanation for this and all I have been told is "gens are boring". Fair enough it's not exactly thrilling gameplay sitting on a gen but that's the objective of the survivor so if people refuse to do them then is there any wonder why so many killers are steamrolling soloq? The only thing that survivors seems to want to do is get chased (but not twice in a row because that's tunneling).
Maybe make gens more challenging somehow so people wouldn't be so bored they refuse to do them? Maybe more soloq would end up escaping. I was thinking maybe making gen times shorter but when swf smash the gens they go fast enough as it is. Is this a common thing for people to avoid gens in soloq or is it just my matches?
Your survivor MMR is most likely too low for you to see the issues that plague mid to high MMR games. Try playing solo q survivor exclusively for the next month or two and report back when you see an increase in slugging, tunneling, and other teammates doing gens.
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@jesterkind said:
I'd like to be upfront and say this is a discussion, rather than a declarative statement. I want to know what other people think about this topic.
So, I've been thinking a lot about Wesker recently, and specifically about how much stuff he has in his kit. Just to run down the list, as neutrally as possible, Wesker has:
- The ability to damage survivors with a dash/lunge mechanic that can curve around objects
- The ability to displace survivors with that dash mechanic
- Hindered via his "infection" mechanic
- Instadown capacity via that same "infection" mechanic
- Tracking via Killer Instinct on survivors who try to avoid that "infection" mechanic
- A larger terror radius, which may be a plus or a minus depending on your build
- Deep Wound for colliding a survivor into another survivor (this one doesn't really matter, it's just a cute gimmick, but I'm being thorough here)
If you stop and pull back a little, and look at all of this while remembering how good Wesker is in general, this really starts to look like a bloated kit to me. Damage, mid-chase mobility, movement speed reduction, instadowns, tracking… sure, some of that's harder to reach but it's still more than a fair few killers get.
I'm curious to know if anyone has an argument for all of this stuff being necessary to his kit's strength and identity. I'd also put forward for discussion that the combination of Hindered and tracking being on the same mechanic + one of them being guaranteed to happen depending on which one you choose to counter makes him quite good at delayed tunnelling, EG, chasing someone a short time after an unhook but before they can actually get back into the action.
What do people think? Is Wesker's kit bloated, or does he genuinely need all of these mechanics?
His kit is absolutely bloated. They should honestly remove the uroboros and sprays. Very little would change of his gameplay.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3878188#Comment_3878188
Console players can't use keyboard and mouse. Fact is console players don't get the same as PC players. If they want to stream and use chat and only say their stream in the chat so killer can't see then until they add chat to console they need to get PC. Otherwise they are stuck with the billboard. To my knowledge console players can't use keyboard and mouse so if they want to take advantage of the mouse 360 turn that alot of survivors do then PC is the way to go.
Input methods have nothing to do with overall game functionality. Consoles have on-screen keyboards that pop up for console players to type messages. This has existed literally for DECADES. People could send messages back in the xbox 360 era using this exact method. There are people that use a controller ON PC. Sure, keyboard and mouse has a slight advantage, but literally in today's age of dbd, nobody is 360ing anyone, decent killers just aren't falling for it anymore.
All of that to say: there is zero reason that BHVR can't use the console's own on-screen keyboard and enable text chat for console players. The reason console players do not have access to chat is not from a "is it possible" standpoint, but something else entirely.
And all of THAT to say: no matter what platform you want to stream on, the game shouldn't go out of its way to make it harder on a specific section of the player base just because they have chosen a specific console.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3878175#Comment_3878175
You can't advertise that you're live and then expect only the positives of that.
When did I say that should be the case? I agree that if you are advertising your stream, you should know that there are bad actors out there. Either way, that does not justify the actions of the bad actors.
Besides, if you want a really simple solution to that problem, add a "Hide Username during Pregame" option, which can have toggles to hide your name for everyone or just the killer. That could be implemented in a week tops if the resources were allocated for it.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3878175#Comment_3878175
Send a PM? Or get a PC to stream? PC has always had more upsides like keyboard and mouse that console players don't get so the ability to chat is just another part of it I suppose
Nothing stopping people streaming, don't need to announce it to people. If they want viewers and put TTV in the name to get more viewers then they can't really complain when they do actually get more viewers (killer viewing).
You're… joking right?
How does a console player send a PM to a PC player? They can't.
If someone sent a PM to anyone asking them to follow their stream, I guarantee nobody would. The whole point of advertising a twitch via a username is that you are not directly asking anyone to go to your stream. It's like a billboard. You can see it and choose to ignore it, but those who are interested can follow up as they see fit.
Some people want to stream but do not have the financial wiggle room or desire to drop $2500 on a decent computer that can handle a stream at good quality and a game simultaneously. Some people want to stream from their console that they already have paid for. Saying "get a PC" when the issue is only this game's implementation of crossplay is… an interesting take to say the least.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/437639/what-happened-to-survivors
Would also like to point out survivor do have a chat in the lobby. You can make your name anonymous and just type your stream info in the lobby. That way killer can't see and your teammates can.
Half the players in this game are console players that don't have access to chat. What is the solution for that?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876806#Comment_3876806
Sure, but people in this forum use "high MMR differently. They want it to mean that they're"the best at the game" and are exclusively above, say, 1900.
But as you said, top 5% isn't the same thing. Those standard deviations could mean that people who are at the soft cap are actually not in the top 5% (or alternately that people who are below soft cap could also be top 5%).
That's all I'm saying, is that they aren't necessarily the same thing, and BHVR (afaik) never uses the MMR number with the community.
What I'm saying is regardless of whatever number someone is at, if you are within the top 5% of players, you are one of the best at the game. If nobody was at the soft cap of MMR, but they were still within the top 5% of players, they are still the best players the game has simply by merit of the percentages. That's what the community sees high MMR as.
I have never once seen anyone equate high MMR only as strictly above 1900 MMR score (especially since we aren't given those numbers). MMR for dbd is more of a general feeling if anything. If someone is constantly seeing A tier and above killers, 4 slowdown, extremely coordinated survivor play, optimal pathing, or playing against content creators; one can reasonably assume they are in high MMR.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876751#Comment_3876751
In official stats, BHVR typically uses "top 5%", which isn't necessarily the same thing as how the community uses "high MMR". But afaik they never give out numbers like 1400.
If they are the top 5%, then they are the high mmr bracket. High mmr is always in relation to the best players, not some arbitrary number. If the high mmr threshold was set at 10 million, but nobody could get over 2 thousand, that would be a pretty horrible system, since no one could ever be considered "high" mmr.
If the top 5% includes the people 3 and 4 standard deviations to the right of average on the bell curve, as well as the top 3% of performers from 2 standard deviations to the right of average, that is high mmr.
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@Roco45 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876611#Comment_3876611
How is Killer miserable? Go look at every forum for this game and see, or better yet, go play Killer lol You're right! Killer is the strongest the role has ever been!… and it's still not enough to deal with competent SWF and it's completely ruined SoloQ.
Killer is the strongest it's ever been yet every single match now we have slugging/tunneling/camping, so much so that everyone is jumping on the forums to complain about it. Everyone wants to penalize Killers from doing it or penalize Survs from leaving games because of it, but none of you have thought about penalizing SWF and that speaks volumes. Bandaid fixes on a wound that requires stiches.
I get iri 1 killer and survivor every month. SWFs are not even remotely close to an issue unless you're playing against a legitimate comp squad. SWF is not the problem here.
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@Roco45 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876582#Comment_3876582
The game launched with no SWF and the game was created without SWF in mind, every base mechanic this game is built off of literally reiterates that. What BHVR has done in those 9 years is touch every facet of this game besides SWF and look what we have, a miserable experience for SoloQ and a miserable experience for Killers.
So enough of these threads about "Stopping tunneling/slugging/camping" or "Stopping going next or DCing", start broadening your horizons and acknowledge the real issue, SWF being OP, they play a completely different game than SoloQ does and the game sure isn't balanced around SoloQ.
How is killer miserable when it's the strongest it has ever been? With a target kill rate of 60%, that means 8 hook states per match on average. Soloq is the only thing that's suffering right now (to the degree where I'm surprised anyone actually plays this way). Arguably, if there was no SWF or communication between survivors, it would be extremely rare that all gens complete, and I'd guess the exit gates would be powered in only 10% of matches.
If SWF survivor teams got 250+ match escape streaks, then it would be applicable to ask for a nerf, but when many killers are running around with streaks in the hundreds and thousands on multiple killers, I don't think anyone believes for a single minute that SWF is the root cause of everything wrong with this game. Let's just be honest here.
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@Roco45 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876564#Comment_3876564
You're missing the target. SWF is inherently OP, that's not even up for debate, that is a genuine fact. This game and all it's mechanics were built fundamentally on 4 Survs not having communication and super coordination as a baseline, that again is not up for debate, that is a fact.
We don't see SWF's differently, you just refuse to acknowledge it because you benefit from it, big difference there buddy. You've seen SWF stuff more often because the issue is getting ridiculous, there is no reason that every person who plays this game outside of a SWF (includes both SoloQ Survs and Killer) should suffer because SWF players want to retain their advantages.
Again, I don't care for BHVRs warped stats that don't even count DC's, I'm not interested and it's completely dishonest for people like you to keep peddling them and it's also hilarious how you guys keep using stats that are useless.
Are we just going to ignore the almost 9 years of balance and shifting priorities this game has gone through to go from "4 survivors with 0 communication (never really existed anyway since skype AND discord were available when patch 1.0.3 dropped with SWF legit a few weeks after launch)," to where it is now?
Don't pretend like the devs have balanced survivors around "no communication" within the past 5 years at the very least. If you have 0 communication on the survivor side currently, the survivors will lose. Are you calling it OP because the survivors actually stand a chance at escaping via coordination?
Again, I don't care for BHVRs warped stats
But if the stats showed that SWF survivors escaped 80% of the time, you'd be all for a survivor nerf right?
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@Interrupt_Vector said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876253#Comment_3876253
Distortion, Kindred, Lightweight, Left behind + Key (equipped when the lobby timer is at 6 seconds left)
Brother this is the sweatiest thing I've read on these forums.
Thank you, I appreciate that 👍️
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@MoZo said:
what would yall say is the best build/perks for a solo escape streak in 2025? I know the usual deli, sole survivor and wake up will always be there but ik dh used to be very helpful for solo escape streaks but ever since its gotten nerfed I'm wondering what’s been the next best build for a solo escape streak. If you have any suggestions on builds/perks to run please feel free to let me know I really appreciate it!
First and foremost, run distortion. Even after its nerf, you need it for consistent soloq streaks. If you don't want high snowball killers to sprint at you from the get go and drastically decreasing your chances of survival (mainly blight), you need that initial protection from lethal pursuer every time. Second, run kindred. When you do get caught, giving survivors all the info about where everyone else is in the match while you are on hook is necessary if you want to actually be unhooked in this game. I would not recommend deliverance because 1) it requires you to unhook someone safely before you are hooked, and 2) the killer usually runs right back to hook, and even especially more so if they see the broken status effect on someone who just got unhooked.
This is where your skill as a player comes into play. If you are confident in your looping ability and tile knowledge, run lightweight and left behind. If you are not confident in those two, run lithe and windows of opportunity.
Lastly, you can try to run a hatch offering, but the reason I promote left behind over a hatch offering is because indoor maps essentially make those offerings useless. I'm going for consistency with this build, and I think this is way more consistent over hoping the map RNG or killer offerings don't take you indoors. In terms of an item, you need to last second equip a purple or iri key of your choice. You'll need to do this last second and hope the killer isn't watching their screen. Killers that see keys usually immediately target that survivor as their first tunnel target. That's another reason to not bring a hatch offering since if the killer sees a key and a hatch offering, they will slug everyone until the person with the key is dealt with. At least this way, the killer could MAYBE think you're running it only for the killer aura reveal addon. Placing the key down when you spawn in at a hidden location is another way you could increase your chances of using it, as if the killer does not see you with it during chase, they will quickly forget or misremember who they thought had the key.
Lastly, I'll put a quick heal after unhook build below because of the frequency in which a killer will run back to hook.
Long story short, these are the few builds I'd run if you're looking for a more selfish style of escaping with some consistency:
- Distortion, Kindred, Lightweight, Left behind + Key (equipped when the lobby timer is at 6 seconds left)
- Distortion, Kindred, Lithe, Windows of Opportunity + Key/Medkit
- Resurgence, Off the Record, Lucky Break, Unbreakable + Medkit
Based on your skill level, I would recommend these builds in the order listed, from high to low.
Remember, the key to soloq survivor streaks isn't increasing your chances of completing generators, it's outliving your fellow survivors and finding hatch.
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@Rudjohns said:
Killer's don't want to play the game to have fun with random perks, you know, trying to get value from them. They want to win no matter what. And because their build has no slowdowns they are playing as sweaty as possible. It also doesn't help when I am getting tunneled but I have Spine Chill, Cut Loose, Invocation and Still Sight
People don't understand the point of Chaos Shuffle I guess. I have more fun in normal queues than this mess, unfortunately.
Yep, I have been saying this forever: base kit killer is more than enough to get you to high MMR. Proxy camping, running back to hook for a free health state, forcing a 3 gen (still a viable strategy despite the 8 kick limit if you know how to play around it) among other killer "skills" shows that killer players have an entire arsenal at their fingertips no matter what killer they decide to play, regardless of the perks they choose.
Plus, most survivor perks that aren't exhaustion or second chance perks require synergies with other perks or items to fully unlock their potential. Having power struggle without also getting flip flop at the very least means that both of those perks on their own are not as strong as they could be, in fact, they would probably be sitting a C or D tier due to hook spawn numbers. For killer perks however, it's a similar story, but almost every killer perk (minus perks like territorial imperative) are already strong in and of themselves. Sure, running pain res with dead man's switch is a really good combo, but either of those perks by themselves provides magnitudes more influence on a match than flip flop does by itself.
I am not arguing that killer perks should be on the same power level as survivors. I am simply saying that in a mode that provides random loadouts, killers will still come out on top with a decent random build that requires little adjustment to how they normally play because base kit killer skills have gotten to the point where perks are only complementary at lower MMR, or solely exist for gen slowdown at higher MMR to counter survivor gen rush builds.
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@notacamper said:
Now idk about you but when this survivor is able to predict my moves and even my mindgames while the rest of the team gen rushes like no tommarrow and somehow gets them done in record time(seriously 4 gens done in under 1mins, idk about you but i'm gonna suspect cheating is at play.
And before you rush in to call me a butthurt loser, i checked their perks, items and addons. The survivor i was chasing had no way to predict my movement like they did and the rest of the gen rushing team either had no perk to speed up gen progression or no toolbox, in fact ONE of them had a toolbox no other did. Mathmatically, its impossible to get 4 gens done in under 1min. two?; sure with perks+toolboxes and 2 survivors on each gen but 4? no, not possible.
And lastly, NO I did not record this because if I had to record every single match I played on a daily basis my HD would be filled to the brim within a week and I have far more important things to use my HD space for.
Your welcome to assume what you like but just know anyone who believes cheaters don't exist in DBD or that the odds of encountering one are extremely low OR that they only target streamers is being willing ignorant to the reality where cheaters are a major problem in DBD for streamer and non-streamer alike.
Subtle cheaters plague at least 30% of the playerbase at this point while another 10% are more obvious about it and target streamers for attention. That's 40% of our player pop who is subtle or blatantly cheating.
Where did I get these numbers? Lets just say that while I don't use these tools myself, i frequent the forums where people use them a dev's cheattool's consensus in dec of 2024 was at 9,537 people either using their cheattool or using someone else's.
That's 9,537 of 25k daily players who cheat while that may seem like a small number, IT'S NOT and should not be taken lightly.
4 gens in 1 minute of the match starting is theoretically and mathematically impossible. If you're certain that it was in fact only 1 minute, they were cheating. Like other people have said, just report them and move on, that's really all you can do.
Edit:
While not theoretically nor mathematically impossible, it is highly improbable. If a survivor ran Streetwise with a Commodious Toolbox equipped with a Wire Spool and Brand New Part, a generator could be completed in 55.56 seconds. With this in mind, there are faster builds out there: running No Mither + resilience will yield an additional 3.35 seconds to get 52.03 seconds total. I am intentionally not including any skill check related perks, as I'm going for certainty rather than chance with this analysis. With an 8% chance to spawn a skill check every second, completing a generator by hitting every possible great skill check at every possible chance would likely reduce the gen time to under 35 seconds.
All that to say, the survivors would have to remain uncontested for that duration of time. I specifically made a build where all 4 survivors would be able to gain maximum value spawning on 4 separate generators at the beginning of the match. If the killer so much as walks towards a generator with someone on it, then it is essentially impossible for 4 gens to complete within 1 minute.
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@Shroompy said:
The free character trials is MASSIVE. Something thats been asked for ages now and its a huge step in the right direction for newer players. Well done :)
Because, in my opinion, it's another one of the "dbd does it worse than every other game on the market" things we get 3 or 4 years after we should have had them.
Most every free to play multiplayer game has a rotating free character queue. League has one, heroes of the storm has one, multiversus, etc. And those are FREE TO PLAY. Dbd has an up front cost to it, and then expects you to buy more DLC on top of it. This is another discussion entirely, but if cheating wasn't such an unmitigated issue for this game, it would have gone free to play a long time ago in my opinion. We had a shop overhaul to feature sales and collections, we now have rotating shops, battle passes, etc. which is everything free to play games have partly to make up for the lack of an up front cost. Why is it that we can't have a free rotating character list for both killer and survivor if we have to pay 20 dollars up front when we also have all the shops free to play games have?
This honestly feels like we're getting a singular drop of "QoL" and a bad one at that. What if a new player joins in between events? In a game where the balance is centered around perks, waiting 2 months for an event to maybe have a chance of having the character you were interested in getting is way too long. It's probably faster and overall better to grind out iridescent shards to buy a non licensed character and buy them without waiting to have a chance to test them out.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to how much you value waiting 2 months for something valued between 5 and 15 dollars (or iridescent shards for non licensed stuff). If the average DLC is 7 dollars and you're on the fence for a particular DLC, waiting 2 months to maybe have a chance to try out the DLC if it was selected arbitrarily is more than enough incentive for almost anyone with an income source to just spend 7 dollars, especially with videos online performing the same function of testing by showing character and perk capabilities for free.
In my opinion, this feature is only here to gain positive attention from the community and nothing more, since the entire feature is too random and sparce to mean anything to the players that would benefit the most from it. We should be getting a new rotating survivor and killer list every week in my opinion. Either that, or make all characters (non licensed, maybe even excluding the most recent 2) free to play during major events.
And this is coming from someone who owns all the DLC, so I gain absolutely nothing from this change.
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@TonTon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864994#Comment_3864994
Ah brutal strength the perk that save .25 seconds on kicking a pallet maybe if they actually buffed it then maybe but that's just mad copium
Base pallet break speed is 2.34 seconds. With tier 3 brutal strength it's 1.87 seconds. That's a 0.47 second time save, and almost double what your claim was. That 0.47 seconds equates to 1.88 meters of distance saved if a base survivor ran in a straight line away from the killer; aka the maximum distance they could make on the killer.
For comparison's sake, let's bring up 7.0.0, release, made for this. That perk gave a flat 3% haste to an injured survivor. Let's assume a survivor's average chase time is 22 seconds. I am getting this number from the stats released by the devs in July 2024: the average chase time of a survivor per match for high MMR is 1 minute and 6 seconds, and assuming 3 chases that result in hooks, I reach 22 seconds per chase. Base survivor movement speed is 4.0 m/s, and with made for this, it becomes 4.12 m/s. Assuming a survivor is running in a straight line (hold w strategy), base survivor would be able to cover 88 meters of distance. A survivor with made for this would make 90.64 meters. That's only a difference of 2.64 meters. Compared to how many meters of distance saved brutal strength brings, the differential release made for this gains is only 0.76 meters more than holding W versus a killer that runs brutal strength against a base survivor holding w.
That was taking the chase out of the equation. Using basic algebra and assuming the start of a chase is 10.36 meters away from a killer (1 meter for the pallet, and 2.34 seconds times 4 for the survivor distance gained holding w while the pallet is being broken), a 115% killer will catch up to a base survivor after 17.27 seconds of holding w after them. Similarly, a survivor with made for this will be caught up to after 22.17 seconds. A difference of 4.9 seconds.
Now, bringing back brutal strength, using the same math, a killer will catch up to a base survivor after only 14.13 seconds. That is a difference of 3.14 seconds when compared to a killer not running brutal strength. The time difference to catch up to a survivor between "made for this vs base survivor" and "base survivor vs brutal strength" is only 1.76 seconds in favor of release made for this.
Long story short, as the math shows, if you can reduce the initial lead a survivor has in chase, you will catch up with them faster, since the haste differential means less when the killer is also moving versus when they are standing still breaking a pallet, which is exactly what brutal strength does and why I suggested it.
And all of this was assuming high MMR player chase times against killers with no movement abilities. With more average players, these chase times are likely even less. Since players of more average skill have a higher likelihood of pathing sub-optimally, their initial distance will be shorter, meaning a faster catchup thanks to brutal strength.
And to take all of that out of the equation and just go on base time save, assuming even 20 pallets on a map, brutal strength saves the killer 9.4 seconds of time. That is more than 10% of a single generator, or even more if you can apply gen pressure correctly. And that pressure does not count against the 8 kick limit on gens since the survivors didn't get the chance to apply those charges to the generator.
Please tell me in good faith how suggesting a reliable perk that hasn't been changed since march of 2020 (brutal strength), which will 100% give you value in every game you play, and only comes up short by a difference of 1.76 second catchup time to a perk (release made for this) that was scapegoated as the worst, most broken survivor perk, that completely broke the game since old dead hard by every killer player is "mad copium."
tl;dr this is why they teach math in school.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865620#Comment_3865620
Strawman. I know they can't create pallets. Even if the pallet count is as low as you claim, that's still enough to beat the killer. They'd just hold W and comp corner when pallets get low. You can't just expect the killer to keep dropping chases against good players, and that be the "smart play" that wins them the game. Any gen efficient team is popping 1-2 gens (at least) after the killer's first chase, regardless of if he got the down or not. But not even getting the down after that, he's pretty much lost the match already. The windows aren't bad either, unless you're literally running Z walls, and they're potentially stronger than pallets because they can't be "used up." I think y'all take the weakest possible map seeds, and the most mid survivor teams, and say, "If they can't beat the killer in those scenarios, then the game's killer sided." I've never got one of these maps you speak of where I break 1-2 pallets and get a free dead zone.
Contrary to what killer mains will believe, not every survivor team is a 4 man, comp ready, gen rush, 4 dead hard 4 ds, map offering swf. The average game of dbd has someone going down and hooked before a gen completes.
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865620#Comment_3865620
And awful 50/50s, why you see Lithe utilized so much to get out of the unsafe pallet spawns that Behavior created.
Yeah map generations are horrible. They need a complete rework.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864994#Comment_3864994
What about when every survivor is that strong?
Then I'm wondering how the survivors are creating new pallets out of thin air, since maps only spawn like 15 max, and those are on bigger maps. Most maps only spawn 10 pallets and awful windows.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/435955/kill-rate-is-not-win-rate
The winrate formula is NOT
(wins / games). This formula is valid ONLY for games without draw.In games where draws are a possible result, the winrate formula becomes:
(wins + 0.5 × draws) / gamesIf we apply the correct formula to Nightlight's data, we get a 56.7% winrate, for a 56.6% killrate.
i.e. ALMOST NO DIFFERENCE.
This whole "killrate is not winrate" argument is a forum nonsense to try to artificially fit killer narratives. When you do your math correctly, winrate actually shows the game to be even more killer-sided than killrate, because hatch escapes lower the killrates.
Also, to go a step further, if you look at kill rate in terms of hook states (because 60% of 4 people doesn't split evenly), it comes out to 7.2 hook states. Since you can't have .2 of a hook state in a match, you have to round up to reach at least 60%, so 8 hook states.
This means either:
- Everyone is on death hook but they all escape
- Two people died, one person is death hook, one person has 0 hooks
- Two people died, two survivors have been hooked onceAnd this is their AVERAGE target. That means 50% of games will have a higher hook counter than this, and due to the snowball nature of this game, it usually means 2 kills goes to 4 (depending on if the killer cares about slugging for hatch, slugging until everyone is downed, etc.). So not only does a survivor have a 50% chance of being one of the unlucky 2 survivors that die just by the nature of the killer existing, BUT there's another 50% chance that the killer gets another 1 or 2 kills on top of that.
The fact that spawning in as any killer practically guarantees you two kills and on your way to a third with almost no effort because that's the goal of the 60% kill rate target is why survivor feels so horrible to play.
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@Atom7k said:
I might be wrong about this because it has been a while since playing survivor on that map but from my understanding you can get hit while using a portal. You can even get grabbed.
While playing killer today and yesterday (and my ping was pretty good) I was never able to hit survivors in the animiation of the portal. Grabbing wasn't a thing either. So everytime a survivor used a portal I could just stand there and watch because if I attacked I would (on my screen) hit the survivor but it was treated as I wouldve attacked thin air.
Also to be honest I really think that the portals shouldn't be so close to each other that you can create a loop you can run for 30 seconds or more every time you are in the area. It may be becaue of this condition of not being able to hit survivors in the animation but right now that loop is stupidly strong.
The loop I'm talking about is backside main building portal then turn right, downstairs library portal so you are left to the basement and then back to main building. Only as dredge I could shorten that loop effectivly.I was able to both hit and grab a survivor on portals yesterday, so it still is working. Maybe it was a ping issue?
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@XtremeDBD said:
Maybe its just cus of the winter break that friends are coming together and all to play, but there has been a massive jump in 4 man SWFs who do nothing but run deja vu, quick gambit, prove thyself, wake up, friendly competition and adrenaline.
These people do nothing but do gens for 4 minutes while one dude just pre drops and gives quick gambit to all 3 of their jockies. This has been super unfun to play against and i think its time BHVR nerfs these perks, maybe allow QG to only provide benefits to one survivor, make deja vu similar to prove thyself where only one 6% is applied to a stacked gen.
Other then nerfs, how is deadlock not basekit yet? Survivors shouldn't be able to completely repair a big ass machine so fast, that just kills immersion lowkey.
Survivor is being made stronger in the wrong ways, instead of focusing on perks, maybe focus on solo queue buffs. Like a In gamd voice chat, even mobile had that before core somehow. These just feel like super easy fixes icl.
You're joking right? Survivors are doing their only objective. If you're finding that pallets are an issue, either run brutal strength or drop chase on that survivor.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864237#Comment_3864237
this game is nowhere near fortnite but I can see why. It started as a dark slasher game and now it’s very bright and colorful with some of its characters
It's about as close to fortnite as it can get without breaking from its horror themes. This game started out with original characters and original lore, but now it has become essentially a theme park for all horror/thriller adjacent intellectual property. I have no problem with crossover DLCs or anything like that; however, the only thing people are asking for nowadays are X, Y, and Z licenses from their favorite show/movie/game/etc. instead of hoping that the devs can create something new and fresh.
This also keeps the gameplay stale because why improve anything/iterate on your own content if you can have the same engagement, if not more by grabbing a massive license? People return/join for big license releases just to try them out, even if they don't end up staying; but for the people that actually play this game and care about the gameplay loop, it only gets worse over time.
People used to love original chapters, now they are met with lukewarm "enthusiasm" from content creators and the community while we all wait for the next licensed chapter news to release. I understand that there is a lot of money to be had by licensing major franchises, but it's just sad to see another game that had its own unique identity become another (in my opinion) hodgepodge of disparate IPs all trying to get you to swipe your credit card as much as possible.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
Mori - You are eaten.
Power - can sit on the ground quickly disrupting survivors making them scream. Survivors become hindered for 7 seconds. If a survivor is too close when he does his "Earthquake" ability you will be instantly downed.
Chase power - "Belly Flop" Leaps at a survivor to slam them into the ground. Survivor will be injured on impact and hindered for 3 seconds.
Food carts - There will be 4 food carts around the map that will distract Caseoh when a survivor picks up a delicious food item and waves it at the killer. xD
I think this could work :p
I realize that this is a meme post, but in all seriousness, the fortnite-ification of every live service game under the sun that has a modicum of success really needs to stop.
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@DancewithmeKate said:
How it's uncounterable when he is warning you with laugh? And plus Wraith can also get many free hits, is he problem too?
More than half the time his laugh is bugged and is silent. A good wraith is competitive at all MMR except 4 man swf comp matches. The difference with wraith and Chucky's undetectable is Chucky can immediately dash afterwards to down the survivor almost instantly, whereas wraith has to cloak and uncloak to make up distance.
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@jasonq500 said:
I want to hear solution in what changes you would like to see from Chucky whether he's strong or weak
For me if they wanted to reduce his lethality, he should at least feel good to play
Revert the speed reduction and the increase duration,
Keep his 14 second cooldown
Give Chucky's laugh lullaby for people of hearing when in stealth
Increase his charge time of slice & dice (one of his downside add-on silk pillow as basekit)
Slightly increase slice & dice angle when performing a scamper
Rework rats poison and jump ropes add-on into something different
I never cared about the strength of the character so as long as it feels good to play which to me Chucky doesn't feel good to play with the recent nerfs
They didn't do enough in my opinion. They should have made him base 98% movement speed for starters. His power, if missed, should be a 5 minute recharge. They also should have removed his ability to steer while dashing, requiring it to be in a straight line. In addition, his movement speed while dashing should be hard capped to 100% movement speed, and it should only last 2 seconds. His footstep decoy mechanic should also be removed, and his undetectable mechanic should also be removed. To offset these balancing tweaks to bring him down to an acceptable level, he should be given better chase music.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860119#Comment_3860119
That wouldn't have happened.
Have you even looked at this thread?
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860485#Comment_3860485
Ah, griefer squads just…don't exist because…I guess killer bad?
Keep in mind that hide and seek squads fit that definition but nobody has ever been banned for it that I can find out, or people abusing spots where the killer cannot hit or pick them up…which Mandy confirmed isn't bannable a few years back (with the DDS spot AFAIR). So clearly this is another instance where the rules as written are not the rules as enforced. But that's another discussion.
I'm saying that it's a team or majority team running a coordinated strategy to be annoying outside of the standard win condition. If your goal isn't just to win but instead to try and make the other side miserable without any incitement, that's griefing.
Now - the grey area is stuff like abusing flashbang+BGP to drop unavoidable flashbangs inside the killer model to cause unavoidable saves. Or abusing Boil Over and spots where you literally cannot hook them to 'win', which I consider exploiting.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860375#Comment_3860375
Yeah that's a weird one. Did they pick up? I've had situations where someone sabos, I drop, down them, the next person tries to sabo and on we go.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860488#Comment_3860488
You going to post the unedited screenshot or are you, after all of that, asking us to just take your word for it?
I never said anything about griefer squads. You using the word griefer interchangeably is how you get to an incorrect assertion like that.
The killer or survivors holding another survivor in a corner because of hitboxes is griefing. Blocking windows/pathways of a survivor to aid the killer in downing them is griefing. Using flashbang or head on as a team against the killer to save another survivor is not griefing.
As I said before, just because the killer doesn't like to have perks used against them does not make it griefing on the survivor's end. How is saving a survivor when the killer is picking them up going outside of the win condition of survivor, you know, to survive? I'm sorry, it's not. I could just as easily say running pain res, grim embrace, dead man's switch, and deadlock is griefing because it's making my match as a survivor miserable. But then everyone would tell me to "get good" and that it's a "skill issue." But if I were to say if you're constantly going after the person you know has boil over, that's a skill issue because there are 3 other players in the match and to focus on the players that aren't trying to strategically waste your time, then I would be met with killer mains who insist that "well going after them was the only play" or "all 4 were running boil over." I can tell you from thousands of hours of experience, it is not the only play.
Exploiting is categorized differently from griefing and is not subjective, it is objective. If someone is abusing a bug, it is exploiting, not griefing. I don't really know what point you were trying to make here. Sure it's annoying to play against exploiters and by definition griefing, but exploiting takes precedence over griefing when you report someone in my opinion.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860357#Comment_3860357
Yes. I'm using that term synonymously with 'griefer' here…which should be obvious? It feels like you're quibbling over definitions as a sort of red herring so let's get back to it.
You think my definition of bully squad is wrong.
What is the right definition?
Like I said before, a bully squad is subjective. Some people consider bully squads to be people that gen rush. Some people consider bully squads to be anyone that uses head on and flashbangs… for their designed purpose. At the end of the day, a bully squad is self-defined by the killer as a scapegoat to why they lost a match, or as a reason to spite survivors for doing nothing but being competent and competitive.
No matter what your definition or my definition of what a bully squad are, it is simply not the same as griefing by the game's own report system: "Griefing - Report this player for intentionally using abilities or game mechanics to the detriment of the game. Examples: Taking the game hostage, body blocking, working with the killer." No matter how much a killer doesn't like flashbangs or head on, using them in a coordinated team to try and win is not "to the detriment of the game."
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860119#Comment_3860119
That doesn't really help their point. For all we know they could have been in a sabo squad with their 3 friends. I'm not saying that happened but really, hiding your perks makes it seem like you actually do have something to hide that could explain why someone would be a douche towards you. Otherwise, why not simply show your perks? If it's just a normal perk layout that wasn't designed to make their opponent miserable, then all these potential excuses wouldn't really make sense.
Either way, I agree that it's sad that people queue up in the event queue and do stuff like that. No matter which side it is, if you go out of your way to make your opponents miserable at least have the curtesy not to go into the event queue. Or better yet, take a break from the game and actually think about what it takes for you to have fun in DBD. If the answer is: "Making the game horrible for my opponent." then maybe you should play a different game. One that you enjoy more.
It does help the point because sabo hooks don't take 4 minutes to respawn. There are 5 gens remaining in OP's screenshot. If killers are really that upset that the entire lobby is going for a sabo play instead of doing generators, I don't know what to say. Ultimately the killer will win the game because nobody is progressing the game on the survivor's side. And even if that was the case, slugging everyone out for 4 minutes when hooks are available out of spite is poor sportsmanship. That's my point.
Even if OP has flashbang, head on, background player, and saboteur, it would not justify slugging everyone out for 4 minutes. Even if OP had what you would consider a "guilty" build, it would not justify slugging everyone out for 4 minutes.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860354#Comment_3860354
Note: you called my definition 'wrong', without elaboration. You still haven't provided your own definition.
You absolutely can be a griefer by 'helping your team'. It depends, yet again, on intent and context.
People try to justify BMing and being a jerk because 'I was trying to put the killer on tilt so we could win'. It's still being a jerk.
People try to justify abusing the flashbang bugs or unhookable spots 'because it helps us to win'. You're still being a jerk.
And…okay, once again. We don't know anything about what happened there because there's one screenshot and important details were deliberately erased. The killer is carrying a survivor. We don't know if this is a bleedout from spite or a group who were proving very difficult to hook and this was simply counterplay. Maybe in the next few seconds he's hooking the rest of them? Maybe he's the jerk?
We don't know. We can't know. Because the OP won't show us more. And that's suspicious.
"Being a jerk" could be defined as running 4 slowdown. "Being a jerk" could be defined as running knock out. "Being a jerk" could be defined as running pentimento with 3 other totem perks. See how quickly your argument falls apart?
At this point you're actively ignoring the discussion and are trolling, so any further discussion would be pointless.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860344#Comment_3860344
Elaborate and show your work.
It's a pretty common sense definition.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860319#Comment_3860319
Context is for kings.
@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860300#Comment_3860300
You did not define what a bully squad is, and to prevent the ambiguity of that phrase, I defined it for you. What's a bully squad in your opinion? A 4 man swf? Someone who brings perks that prevent you from hooking? A gen rush build? 4 medkits? See how this is a useless phrase to define? A bully squad is subjective, but no matter what way you define it, slugging for 4 minutes when you are able to hook someone is unsportsmanlike conduct in my opinion.
Griefers and bully squads are not the same. Griefers throw matches for their own team. Killers would not be complaining to the rooftops about bully squads if they benefit them (assuming that bully squads mean griefers).
OR, here's a funny idea, they hid the perks to try and avoid what you're doing right here: dismissing the fact that the killer COULD have hooked them, but chose to slug them out because killers will find a way to justify their bad manners.
I explained it here for you. You can't really grief an opponent if you are helping your team by slowing the killer down, that's a valid strategy. Slugging out for 4 minutes when hooking is available could be considered griefing because you are wasting everyone else's time out of spite.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860334#Comment_3860334
Maybe, but that is irrelevant. If the killer spends 10min trying to hook people but gets sabotaged and blinded each time then the killer is quite likely going to think "ok I won't hook them" regardless of if it's possible to hook or not. Can't go into a match with the intention of preventing a killer from hooking then complain when they slug you.
4 people on the ground at 5 gens in OP's post.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860314#Comment_3860314
I did. Several times.
But sure, I'll do it again.
A bully squad = a group of griefers. They aren't just looking to win as effectively as possible, they are looking to mess with the killer in a negative way.
Also - note how you're the only one doing us versus them.
Your definition is wrong, sorry.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860278#Comment_3860278
I disagree, slugging people like that can be justified if killer is being prevented from hooking them. If hiding perks means it's irrelevant to the discussion then why not hide the item they are carrying too? That's also irrelevant to the discussion but it's not hidden. Toxic builds can be subjective but as people have previously said, the perks could indicate that the player had anti hooking perks, if the killer can't hook they can and should slug. The fact the killer is picking up a survivor knowing there are no survivors around could also indicate this is the reason for slugging. The perks might not be relevant but they could be and when hiding them it just doesn't look good.
I agree that slugging may be necessary, but like I said above, where that survivor is downed it is practically impossible for the killer not to have an opportunity to hook them.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860308#Comment_3860308
What is a sweaty perk build?
Running high tier perks isn't toxic.
If it's stuff like multiple BOs, Flashbangs, maybe sabo, BGP etc. for a griefer squad who basically just want to meme and hold the game for as long as possible or it's stuff like Distortion, IW, CS etc. to play hide and seek and be as difficult to locate as possible.
Now I'm not saying this is what the OP's squad had. But I am saying that it could be, and by hiding the perks it's impossible to know.
It's like me saying 'oh, Mary hit me'. 'Oh really? Can you prove it?'. 'Yeah of course, I have a video' (shows a 3 second clip from a 2 minute video). 'Can I see the context for that?" 'NO YOU DONT NEED TO SEE THE REST OF THE VIDEO SHUT UP'.
I'm so glad we are basing everything off of a "could be." That would also be like saying "Mary stole 1000 dollars from the store." "Oh really? Can you prove it?" "Yeah of course, I have the video" (shows a 10 second clip from a 24 hour CCTV footage of Mary stealing the money.) "What about the rest of the time from the video?" "It's irrelevant to the case."
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860309#Comment_3860309
Sure. Because (insert another hypothetical scenario that's becoming increasingly pointless without seeing the perks).
It's not just tedious. I had a group, granted a while back, that were good enough and coordinated enough players that I simply could not hook anyone. The game lasted around 30 minutes before I just went AFK.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860310#Comment_3860310
Can you imagine a situation where an unhookable squad made a mistake, one got slugged out of position and it cascaded from there?
Load up the map 20 times and tell me how many out of those 20 those 3 hooks don't spawn. I'll wait. I guarantee it will be under 1 time.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860277#Comment_3860277
It depends on the bully squad. If it's an unhookable group or a hide and seek group, absolutely justified and probably shortens the game rather than wasting my time.
I never said 'brought a flashbang' or 'had a dead hard'. I said a bully squad. A group who is out to be jerks and make the killer have a bad game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860280#Comment_3860280
It's a Chucky. Post nerf Chucky. And wraith? What?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860281#Comment_3860281
It's funny how you us versus them while claiming the other side is us versus themming. 'Killer mains'…
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860296#Comment_3860296
Then show us the perks. Very, very easy. If this is just you playing solo and not a griefing group, you don't even need to do anything much to prove it. Because I smell pork pies.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860278#Comment_3860278
There's a name for this but it escapes me. We're following the standard definition of bully squad. Griefers. If it's an unhookable group, slugging is the only way to deal with them.
Now sure, the killer could just be a jerk. But in that case, the OP would have no reason to hide the perks.
As my grandmother would say: 'this smells funny and I'm not going to eat it'.
You did not define what a bully squad is, and to prevent the ambiguity of that phrase, I defined it for you. What's a bully squad in your opinion? A 4 man swf? Someone who brings perks that prevent you from hooking? A gen rush build? 4 medkits? See how this is a useless phrase to define? A bully squad is subjective, but no matter what way you define it, slugging for 4 minutes when you are able to hook someone is unsportsmanlike conduct in my opinion.
Griefers and bully squads are not the same. Griefers throw matches for their own team. Killers would not be complaining to the rooftops about bully squads if they benefit them (assuming that bully squads mean griefers).
OR, here's a funny idea, they hid the perks to try and avoid what you're doing right here: dismissing the fact that the killer COULD have hooked them, but chose to slug them out because killers will find a way to justify their bad manners.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860277#Comment_3860277
Well, I think it is worth pointing out the only exception, Boil Over, because it can be literally impossible to hook someone with that perk.
But even if there was a Boil Over player, it it would be very difficult for all 4 survivors to have the perk and crawl to unhookable spots.
Other than Boil Over, I agree. There isn't a single perk that a survivor can bring which justifies this level of slugging.
Considering where the OP is currently slugged, which I guarantee is next to at least 3 hooks within 8 seconds of carrying (one by lower window next to the breakable door of the main building, one behind the building they're looking at, and one in the middle of the street next to the wagon pallet in front of main building) I would say this is unlikely, but I do agree that playing against that can be tedious.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860280#Comment_3860280
Aint no way sentient beings are getting 4 man slugged against hag or wraith, the first 3 absolutelly no argument but you need to be throwing on purpose to let those other two get a 4 man slug lmao.
I'm sorry that I have no choice on whether or not the killer is going to slug me. If you haven't been slugged against a good hag, consider yourself lucky that you are below the MMR bracket that does have slugging hags.