StarLost
StarLost
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@_AdamFrancis_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842957#Comment_2842957
Nurse is not fine at all. She has no counterplay. If you think she is fine you are biased.
The numbers say different. She has the lowest kill rate of all killers.
(Yes, I'm making a point here - if BHVR are going to nerf killers based purely on kill rates which are overly offset by extremely new players, then they should also be buffing killers based on those kill rates).
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@GannTM said:
Mainly to Sadako. For months I’ve been bashing her as a worry that she would take Spirit’s spotlight which I now regret. I've been taking unhealthy approaches to where I'm comparing Spirit to Sadako and trying to prove why "Sadako will never reach Spirit's level" or "Spirit is a superior version of Sadako." The love I have for Spirit is probably stronger than you imagine it to be and all I want my relationship with her to be is me, her, and the bond we both share, nothing outside of that. I wanna drop the whole 'comparing' thing that I've been doing which I think will be a healthier direction. So to Sadako and anyone that may like Sadako, I am sorry. Believe me I still love Spirit from the bottom of my heart but that doesn’t mean I can’t learn to appreciate everyone else that deserves appreciation.
I actually played Sadako quite a bit last night and she's really growing on me. I think she's a well designed killer and fun to play as and against so I think BHVR did a pretty god job so far with this chapter.
Eh...I love Sadako from a visual/audio design point, but I've played almost 30 matches with her now (and 5 against) and she feels undercooked mechanically.
It's entirely possible that there is some unique wrinkle/playstyle that hasn't been discovered yet, but from what I'm seeing, she's going to need help - meaning that we are likely going to have a Trickster-esque buff/nerf rollercoaster to look forward to.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843145#Comment_2843145
I don’t see how Wraith has more mindgamability in a chase. He’s literally completely visible while Decloaked. It’s not even clear he’s harder to spot coming up on people before a chase starts because he’s taller than Sadako and still visible. I think her stealth is actually better.
Watch Tru3 play her, or even Otz these days.
Basically, they try to do one of two things.
- Go into cloak and use it to move ahead of the running survivor, to bodyblock a window/pallet, decloak and hit them with the dash.
- Go into cloak, decloaking on the other side of a wall, then using it to mindgame the survivor by outpacing the drop/vault or coming from the wrong side. At worst, it's a 50/50.
On the other hand, watching Otz and Dowsey play her, going into demat in chases feels like more of a reflex than something that's having an effect. Survivors don't seem to path differently at all, they're treating her as if they are fully visible. Most hits are at switchbacks or vaults, same as any other M1 killer - the survivors aren't making unusual mistakes for the most part (and when they do, it looks like it's more due to her size causing them to underestimate the range on her lunge).
The height is both a blessing and a curse - she's harder to see, but she also can't see over a lot of things. It comes out at a wash.
Stealth...I'm not sure how. Wraith has a slowdown while emerging, but a dash after (and can bodyblock). Sadako has no slowdown, but can be pathed through and no dash (pretty even, probably leaning slightly towards Wraith).
Wraith's is more reliable even factoring in the shimmer, because it's a true undetectable (Sadako has a silly lullaby that gives her proximity away) and gives him enormous speed on demand.
Her phasing is about all she has, and it's pretty unreliable. Without addons, it's not hard for me to tell exactly where she is and what she's doing, maybe 4 times in 5. The fifth time I can mostly attribute to my own mistakes.
Her teleports are her other big selling point, but the TV spawn logic is so RNG that it can be entirely useless.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843183#Comment_2843183
I agree I think she's at least high B tier maybe even A , her power can really confuse survivors and employing a hit and go strategy with her creates a ton of pressure, the manifest can help alot at certain loops as well and make it hard to predict exactly what she's doing, I've been having a pretty good time with her so far
...How?
Let's contrast her with other 'B' tier killers, probably most analogously Demogorgon. He has superior stealth, a gap closer, a much more reliable traversal tool and is overall a lot less prone to RNG.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843300#Comment_2843300
If it could get saloon killswitched it can get rpd killswitched omg
Eh...killswitching is pretty inconsistent. The previous exploity spot on DDS didn't get it 'switched, and there are still points on some maps where savvy survivors can go down and be immune to pickups or futz with killer powers (Swamp maps and Nemesis, for example).
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@Cameragosha said:
Do you think will sadako get another change ?
I think sadako likely needs a complete overhaul.
I hope she does.
For such an icon of the horror genre, she's...kind of terrible.
- Why does she have a lullaby?
- Why are mandatory brown addons still a thing?
- Why do survivors completely ignore the tape/TV mechanic aside from maybe once or twice in the game and suffer no drawbacks?
Hopefully BHVR give her some love. They could easy bake 2 of her mandatory browns and 2 of her yellows into her basekit, and she'd still be low 'B' tier at best.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843191#Comment_2843191
Just looked. For some reason. No VODS except up to Sunday. Even though I was live Mon-Tues. I'll be live today though.
As far as her kit and watching otz and doswey..That's with every killer though, no ? The kit only takes you so far. SOME skill comes in to play.
As far as elaborating. What she brings to the table IS her teleport. Demos teleports are way way worse. They take longer depending on distance. They're announced and survivors are way gone when you come out. And while sadakos are announced. Her teleports are fast. You have less time to run...She gets a speed boost out of the TV to further limit you holding W early. She can teleport from anywhere. While you need to make a portal with demo or walk to one. She can be anywhere on the map in an instant. Unlike wraith and demo. What she brings is map wise presence. Wraith still has to take 15-20ish seconds if you want to be somewhere on a map. Having to walk there. Sadako is there in an instant. Gets in to chases instantly. She cuts out a LOT of holding W. Which leaves time for her at loops. Since she IS an m1 killer.
- Cool. Let me know when you are live and playing her, I'd be happy to watch.
- Yes, that's with every killer. You can win on any killer. People have won on 'no shooting' Deathslinger and did 50 win streaks on pre-rework Trapper and Clown. The issue isn't 'is it possible to win?'. It's always...possible to win.
- As someone who plays a lot of Demo and Wraith, I'll disagree strongly here. Let's contrast the three:
- = Demo can choose where to site his portals. The cooldown on teleporting is really low. He gets actual undetectable status when he emerges, which can be extended to a massive degree with addons. He doesn't have a lullaby. The only drawback is a short emergence timer, disguised as a travel time and the need to get to a portal to teleport to another. It's telegraphed, but not obviously so unless survivors have line of sight on the portal - which you can deny by siting it correctly. He can even use his portals as sonar. Added to this, he has a very powerful gap closer with no cooldown.
- = Onryo cannot choose where the TVs are, and they are dependent on RNG; they can be in completely useless places - such as the corners of the map on Swamp, facing the wall - or the floor above a gen on RPD. It's very clearly telegraphed and her emergence timer isn't that far off Demos, factoring in the 'I cannot see anything' portion. She emerges completely visible and can be unavoidably blinded while doing so. The only advantage she has is a petty speed boost, the mostly negligible Condemn mechanic and the ability to teleport from anywhere. Contrasted to Demo's shred, she has passive phasing. I'd say Demo takes the unambiguous lead here.
- = Wraith has extreme speed. I think 15-20 seconds is exaggerating, but may be the case if you are going from one corner of Eyrie to the furthest corner (an atypical, fringe situation). His stealth is infinitely superior (why does Onryo need a lullaby?) and has a nifty gap closer that almost always guarantees him the first hit, and can even be used as an anti-loop tool in many situations. Best of all, he can bodyblock! I'd say Wraith takes the lead again, but not as significantly as Demo.
- Sadako can get into chases fairly easily, but savvy survivors will just hoof it to the nearest safe tile - where she doesn't have many options. Due to her lullaby, she doesn't even get an easy engage. You could always try to teleport, but this assumes that you've got a TV located in the right position and facing the right direction (not at all a guarantee). And the cooldown on the TVs is punishing.
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@El_Gingero said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843135#Comment_2843135
Fair enough. Aye it’s a bit of a trade off when it comes to her size. I’m used to playing taller killers so it’s a nice change for me and I find I have an intuitive sense of where survivors are over taller loops. Not had a chance to play her on a corn map yet but I’m willing to put up with it for the benefits in other areas.
Condemned is a tricky mechanic to balance for varying skill levels imho. Lowering the cooldown on TVs and improving the spawns a bit would go a long way to making it more of a threat in higher MMR thus encouraging more interaction, and without affecting lower brackets too much as it would be reliant on correct teleport usage / game sense.
You should try using Mother’s Mirror and Old Newspaper for her stealth. They really should be basekit. With some intelligent movement I’m able to get the drop on survivors more often than not, plus they help with mindgames mid chase.
All I know is I’m having a blast at the moment. It’s been a while since I’ve enjoyed a killer this much.
I also enjoy smaller killers (Hag is my muse) - but Onryo actually feels even lower than Hag does. I'll have to check later today. It creates serious visibility issues on certain maps (just had Eyrie with a 'dense fog' offering - that was...miserable).
Condemned was just a badly thought out idea. An instamori at 0 hooks...you can't easily balance that. It should have been Exposed, with a mori at 2 hooks (similar to PH's torment).
For stealth, I'm actually running Hair+Watch on her, but I agree that she has too many 'you need this addon to feel right' addons. Reminds me of pre-rework Pig (although she still has this problem), pre-rework Demo and Wraith.
I'll admit that I'm having fun on her, but I'll also admit that 80% of this is pure novelty. After a few weeks I'll probably be back to Wraith or Ghostface if I want stealth, or Demogorgon if I want traversal.
@IronKnight55 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843225#Comment_2843225
Oh, I don't think your being nasty (I have super thick skin). I absolutely think she needs buffs which I already mentioned in your thread. I'm just saying if you are getting 4 man escapes a lot while playing her, then maybe practicing with her more might help. She isn't so bad that it's impossible to do good with her. That's all I'm saying.
Good.
Sure - you can win on her. Hell, some streamers did 50 win streaks on pre rework Clown and Trapper, and won games on Deathslinger without using his power. It's possible to win on basically anything if you are better than your opponents. But that's neither here nor there.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843211#Comment_2843211
I can not. But both killers can win. But this does not mean we should ignore balance issues. My post is not about balance problems. Sometimes RNG can be against you but you still can make this game win.
I just had today Blight who had "Ruin + Undying + PR + No Way Out" and lost game. And called us baby survivors for Dead Hard. But it was his fault. He chased Dwight so long, he never give up on chase and lost 3 gens. And then game turned easy mode for us. But this is not killers ofcourse, survivors are also doing this.
Of course. Dunning Kruger is a dominant law of gaming.
But I'm also saying that sometimes when a killer posts 'yeah, I couldn't really do anything there' in postgame, they aren't entirely wrong.
For example, I played Onryo yesterday and got sent to Swamp. The 'poglog' spawned in front of the main structure, creating a near-infinite and I was facing a 3man SWF that knew how to run it. There was very little I could do - it's not even a loop combo you can really mindgame. I also didn't have many good perks. I got slaughtered.
I logged over to Hag, faced the same 3man (welcome to early morning DbD), was sent to DDS and had two of them dead at 4 gens. They didn't play any worse - but I was on a killer with a much better toolkit, had better perks and a less abusive map.
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@IronKnight55 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843199#Comment_2843199
Why would I have videos? I'm not a streamer or YouTuber, lol. I play for fun.
Please don't interpret this as me being nasty - but you do have a tendency to jump into various killer feedback threads going 'no, everything is fine, I main this killer trust me'.
I'm just trying to gauge exactly how you are playing them, and at what level. At lower MMRs, killers operate very differently to intermediate or high MMRs. At lower MMRs, people tend to play most killers as essentially M1 killers - which would explain why you find Onryo 'fine'. But without some sort of video, it's difficult to tell.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
That sounds like a good reason to save money on this chapter. Especially considering the stronger licensed killers available like PH, Neme, Ceno, Bubba and Demopup (r.i.p.)
Mm. I said something to this effect in my Steam review. Basically - if you want a sneaky killer, Ghostface is a better investment. If you want a Japanese themed 'ghost' killer, Spirit is a better investment. Or just play Wraith.
As things stand, the only thing she has on her side is novelty and being iconic. I'll bet that in a month you'll see her about as often as you see Twins, if the developers don't give her some serious attention.
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@Voodoo_Thirsty said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843199#Comment_2843199
Yes, but she walks too fast for looking too stiff.
It's like your grandma walking with a cane pacing at a speed of a marathon athlete. It just looks really off somehow. Pinhead is also guilty of this (looking really slow but actually walking really fast), but he's tall and lanky while Sadako is like you said, tiny.
She should run like Victor at least, but this won't make any sense lorewise and would probably never happen.
She'd look really silly :).
Her speed is more of a balance thing than a visual choice.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843186#Comment_2843186
Nah.
Meta perks are strong for both sides and helps so much, true. And they can make you win.
But end of the day, you can win without them. As survivor, you can be efficient and finish generators fast. Or as killer you can make good pressure on survivors and win either.
And plus it was your choice to play with un-meta perks. Nobody told you don't bring your best stuffs.
Eh...no.
'If you aren't running x perks/killers you are playing the game wrong' to my mind indicates that balance is seriously squiffy.
Yes, you can win without them. But if it's substantially easier to win with them, if the delta between 'good' and 'bad' perks is so big, then that probably needs adjustment.
You are also discounting map choice, which - if I recall the statistics correctly - accounts for something like a 25% difference in match outcomes. That's enormous.
Can you honestly look me in the eye and say that me playing Blight with his best addons and meta perks against a similarly equipped SWF on Midwich isn't going to be a significantly easier match than, say, Trapper with meme perks on Eyrie?
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@IronKnight55 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843045#Comment_2843045
Maybe you need to play a bit more with her if you're doing that bad? I probably don't have the highest MMR, but I've been getting some decent teams and I've done pretty good so far.
Do you have some videos/VODs we could look at?
I'm likely at an intermediate-high MMR (not amazing, but mostly facing meta perks, quite a few SWFs and a lot of mid-level TTVs).
When I win, it's because I outplayed them as a standard M1 killer. The game would not have felt significantly different had I played Trapper or Pig. If I'd been playing Demogorgon or Wraith (probably the most analogous killers) I'd have won much easier.
What difference exists, is mostly superficial.
@Voodoo_Thirsty said:
I'm going to politely disagree. I think she's one of the worst designed killers in a LONG time (visually).
Her animation looks very stiff. Pinhead is similar in this aspect, but at least with him you can see what he's doing. Sadako is literally bobbing her head every time she does anything and it looks really goofy.
Her design (albeit it not being BHVR's fault) is already REALLY bland, long black hair + long white one piece is though iconic, super rudimentary.
The only redeemable factor is the survivors' animations, but that's a bonus for the survivors not Sadako.
I really dig her design. The stiff movements are, to my mind, intentional - this is very much how she moved in most of the films. I find it quite unnerving. Fluid, flowing design wouldn't have looked right on her imho.
The only thing I strongly dislike about her visually is that her camera is so low that maps with a lot of grass (or worse, corn) prevent me from seeing anything. It's a bit like Blight on release.
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Elaborate?
Specifically - what does she bring to the table that other analogous killers (Demo, Wraith) don't bring better?
Do you have a link to a video/VOD? I'd be curious to check it out too, because I've been watching Otz, Dowsey and co. play her and while they win - it's more about them just being really, really good at the game than anything special in her kit. She mostly seems to play as a bog-standard M1 killer with a janky, RNG teleport.
@playhard said:
For instance after several time playing her. She is so weak and her portal easily destroyed by survivor when they already know about their power. She is so short , you will be overwhelmed when looping and hooking survivor to find the hook. You must bring strong perk to counter survivor.
I concur.
She isn't the worst killer in the game, but she's mid-low 'C' tier at best. And we should be getting killers out of 'C' tier - not adding more weaker killers. Especially one as iconic as Sadako.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Because players in DBD are unable to focus on their own mistakes. Obviously Killers only lose because the Survivor had Dead Hard. And Survivors only die because the Killer tunneled them. That the Killer was overcommiting to a Chase in a strong area or the Survivor was running into Deadzones the whole time is not important, nono.
Yes and no.
On one hand - it's a very human thing to do, to blame your loss on balance or the other side.
On the other hand - this game's nature is that a lot of match outcomes are decided before the match even starts. If I pick Nurse, grab the best perks she has and strong addons, then get sent to Midwich against survivors running 'fun' perks, they are going to get shredded. And it's not entirely their fault.
If I pick Pig, grab 'fun' perks and mediocre addons, then get sent to Eyrie against survivors running fully stacked meta perks - I'm going to get 4outed and teabagged all the way to the exit gates, unless MMR pairs me with survivors significantly worse than me.
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@Cameragosha said:
Now Devs and Bhvr is survivor sided.
I hope she gets some help. For such an iconic killer she's...sort of crap.
@BrokenSouI said:
Doubt it. She's a strong killer now
...How?
What does she bring to the table that other killers (not even strong killers) bring to the table better?
@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
I do hope they buff her teleport cooldown, 100 seconds is a tad too much. 60 seconds would be perfect imo, aswell as increasing the cooldown if Survivors turn TV's off to something like 70-75 seconds so it's worth interacting with the TV's, buffing her Condemnation aswell
That - yes.
I also really want to see her stealth helped. Get rid of the lullaby (why is this a thing?) and increase the invisibility duration of her passive phasing significantly so that it's actually useful for mindgaming.
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843160#Comment_2843160
Wrong. Trickster took buffs early when they saw he is so weak. Same for Ghostface.
Trickster's buff/nerf/buff/nerf cycle was a mess and left him in a pretty meh place. I'd hope that if BHVR do decide to help Sadako out, they do a better job of it.
She could stand a hefty buff in nearly every part of her kit - and would still be low-mid B tier at best.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I think he's wrong. From what I've played of her, I've done very well, and I've managed to get moris pretty consistently. Condemn is only non-threatening if you don't apply pressure properly. She's a very solid killer with a lot going for her.
Elaborate?
@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843049#Comment_2843049
I think the Invisibility in chase effect is subtle, it would be hard to distinguish at a glance when a survivor misplayed because they legitimately couldn’t see which say she went versus simply wasn’t paying attention. To really tell you’d probably want to do a more statistical look at his chases with Sadako versus with, say, Trapper and see how often the mind games work on both to tell the boost she gets from it versus having no ability.
P.S. personally I think Sadako is better than Wraith but not by a huge margin, so we’re not probably all that far apart in where we’d rank them both. My guess is Wraith is 2 out of 5 stars as a killer, and Sadako is 2 1/2 to 3 stars.
Hmm. Yeah, I'm not seeing how she is better than Wraith. Wraith has more map presence, more mindgame ability, more reliable mobility, more reliable stealth. I'm actually struggling to think of any area where she outclasses Wraith - maybe her traversal is slightly better on enormous maps, but that's going to be close due to the fact that his is less prone to RNG uselessness.
And Wraith isn't a good killer, at all.
I'm not sure I'll do a statistical analysis, but I'm watching Otz play her now and contrasting his Trapper chases while in loop, and they are very, very similar. Trapper can occasionally use/fake a trap mid chase for mindgames and she can occasionally get lucky and have RNG give her a TV to use mid chase (and have the survivor not anticipate the teleport) but broadly they are just bog-standard M1 killers.
@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842951#Comment_2842951
I agree.
I honestly think people are just playing her wrong. She has an insane amount of map pressure.
I had a player yesterday that was chasing me one second and the next downing someone on the other side of the map.
She basically has something that other M1 killers don’t.
Mm. I'm not seeing it.
Maybe there's some wrinkle in her kit that nobody has discovered yet, at best making her B tier (I doubt it), but while she can occasionally pressure people far away with teleports:
- This relies on pure RNG not to put the TV facing a wall, or on a different floor.
- This relies on survivors not responding to her teleport correctly. I'm seeing more people blind me the second I come out of the TV (completely unavoidable) or just leg it to a safe loop. The speed boost you get is occasionally enough to get a single hit, but nowhere near as reliably as say, Wraith can do this.
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@El_Gingero said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842945#Comment_2842945
Yeah she probably has my favourite animations and the sound design is top notch. The look on a survivors’ face when you grab em is a great. Almost feels like it’s higher res.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843009#Comment_2843009
She’s my new main too. Haven’t had this much fun on a killer since I started learning Hillbilly.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843025#Comment_2843025
She could do with a few tweaks for sure. I don’t get the need for a lullaby. It can work aesthetically for that horror vibe but the same can be said for pure stealth which let’s be honest, would make more sense balance wise. It’s not like she can one-hit-down like Ghosty or guarantee a hit like Wraith.
Her stealth by default seems sort of lacklustre. It works well with addons though which is why I think they should be baked into her kit.
TV spawns could be more consistent especially given the long cooldowns. I don’t mind having one or two in random locations as they can be used to catch survivors off guard, which I quite like, but I can’t really justify that at the expense of them spawning next to gens, and having a TV spawn next to a gen but on the wrong floor is not good.
The condemned mechanic should be more of a threat to encourage interaction. I think the issue is that BHVR can’t rely on the typical solo queue survivor to play around a new mechanic properly so they err on the side of caution. Look at Pinhead for example. A very simple mechanic that makes people run around like headless chickens lol.
I like her smaller size though and it has was won me quite a few mind games. Makes a nice change as I usually play taller killers like Hillbilly and Pyramid Head.
I enjoy her size sometimes, but for every situation where it helps her compared to a taller killer, there's another where it hurts her. Some loops have walls that Nemesis can easily see over, but she can't. Finding people in grass (DDS) and corn is amazingly frustrating.
I don't mind her Condemn not being crazy, but as it stands it feels almost pointless for most of the game. Every now and then someone will get maxed, but that's a once-a-game-and-not-every-game scenario. In general, people just seem to ignore the TVs completely.
Her stealth...might as well not be there within a certain radius. It's by a mile the worst stealth mechanic in the game (and I'm including Pig on that list), which combined with the mostly pointless Condemn mechanic basically makes her an M1 killer with a RNG traversal ability. Bleh.
I was really hoping for more from such an iconic killer. Cenobite isn't ridiculously strong, but at least he feels powerful and threatening.
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@jeremycarinio said:
hehehe ive been experimenting with a possible counterplay, and i think i am able to come up with a good one.
if anyone is interested, shoot me a message, and ill tell you a secret. this will definitely counters the hit and run playstyle of sadako mains.
From what I've seen thus far, playing her and playing against her:
- Hide in grass/corn. Her camera is ridiculously low, and she will generally just not see you.
- Run through her as she demanifests. She'll often lose track of you and you'll gain distance.
- Don't bother with TVs unless you are heading for the endgame and are doing a 3man gen or something right next to one. If she pops out of a TV - hide or leg it. As long as you have an escape route planned, there isn't much she can do.
- She has no anti-loop tools whatsoever, meaning that if you get to shack or another strong tile, you're golden. Her height, again, hurts her as much as it helps her here - you can generally see her better than she can see you.
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@BenZ0 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843006#Comment_2843006
Agree she would be better, but still just average and that still isnt what you want. Thats what I mean with she isnt designed to be strong, her power simply doesnt give her enough pressure or lethality, doesnt matter how much you tweak her condemned or TVs, its just the power itsself that lacks which is fine imo. Not every Killer has to be strong. Again look at Doctor, is he that bad? No. Is he good? No. But he is still very well balanced, probably one of the moist balanced killers.
Doctor is infinitely better than Onryo though. He has an anti-loop, a locator and a passive slowdown that actually works. The only thing that holds him back is the latency issues with his power and an overreliance on addons. If you wanted to use Doctor as a metric for balancing Onryo, she needs a gigantic honking buff to nearly every aspect of her kit.
To the second, I disagree - I think that all killers should be strong. Not Nurse or Blight level, but at least Demo level.
To me, Demogorgon is the gold standard of killer balance Not too strong, not too weak. And comparing Demo to Onryo is like comparing a Dodge Journey to a Dodge Nitro. One is a perfectly fine midrange van, one isn't.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842993#Comment_2842993
Trapper doesn’t teleport and get survivors confused with invisibility, so it’s more than just that.
Also exactly how is “running directly through Sadako” preventing her from being close enough to hit you?
Finally I never said she’s “good because pro player is good with her”, I said she’s overall better than Wraith in a chase because of how her Demanifesting works compared to his Decloaking and said that Dowsey seems to be someone who is playing her correctly as an example.
In chase? It's not far off. Watching a few Dowsey games now, unless there's a TV in a very good location he's basically just playing an M1 killer. His manifest/demanifest stuff feels more like a reflex - it doesn't really seem to do much in chase unless he's using specific addons.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843019#Comment_2843019
Just because someone plays the game for a living doesn't mean everything they say it's correct.
5,287 on record here, I have more hours than some streamers who play DBD for a living.
It's much more engaging to debate if a killer is overpowered/underpowered than listening to someone and be a sheep and having no formed opinion on your own.
Yes, I'm agreeing with you - partially. But I'm also saying that when someone who has the experience and knowledge to be right in most cases (which I think does apply to Otz) then they are likely to be right in other cases.
Their word isn't gospel, but it does carry weight.
And I've also debated her toolkit in this thread, specifically.
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@El_Gingero said:
She may not be the strongest killer in the game but she’s far from the weakest and is better than what most people are saying. But more importantly, when I play Sadako I actually feel like (and look) a horror character in a horror game, which can’t be said for the majority of the roster, and I think the devs deserve a pat on the back for being able to bring that feeling to fruition whilst keeping the killer relatively balanced for different skill levels.
I do think she needs some tweaks to help with higher MMR, namely lowering the cooldown on TVs (100 seconds is too punishing) and baking her stealth addons into base kit, but as far as design goes, I think they more or less hit the nail in the head with this one.
I'd agree that she's awesomely designed from a visual/audio standpoint - but she's depressing to play against people that know what they are doing.
- She may as well not have stealth.
- Why does she need a lullaby?
- Her non-collision hurts her as much as it helps her.
- Ditto her size (corn...argh).
- A lack of an anti-loop, gap closer or proper stealth (she isn't even really undetectable thanks to the lullaby) basically makes her play as a bog standard M1 killer.
- TV spawn logic can put TVs in completely useless spaces.
- Survivors barely need to interact with TVs at all.
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@Bartlaus said:
Why are you still debating here? When a famous streamer like Otz tells you the truth, then internalize it and spread the news!
@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842850#Comment_2842850
Because people should form their own opinions by playing the killer themselves instead of thinking everything a streamer says it's a fact and shouldn't be debated.
Arguments from authority should be avoided.
However, when a very balanced, very neutral and extremely experienced player who essentially dissects this game for a living says that something is underpowered, they probably aren't wrong.
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@Vyne456 said:
I actually had a good break. I purchased the Sadako Rising and it was fun. I actually got my first 4k with her. I also like how she can teleport to tvs and manifest herself and become invisible and that other fun stuff like that you can kill a survivor when they are near the tv and that's how I got my first kill. But I love her and hopefully something good happens for her to have cosmetics like Samara. But the ultra rare skin explains a lot of the lore for the Sadako Rising with the Ring movie.
I would at least put her as my A tier since I can play her better than the other previous killers out there. It only takes skill for me and I got used to her.
Can you guys explain of how you played her and at least give feedback for this new chapter?
I really like her visuals and audio, but as I played her and started facing groups that knew what they were doing - she felt bad. Not just 'okay - bad.
- TVs are a cool concept, but their spawns can be pure Kafka at times. I've had them spawn on the floor above a gen, or in the corner of a map facing a wall.
- Her camera is absurdly low, making grass (or worse yet - corn) a nightmare. Reminds me of Blight on release.
- Her stealth is mostly pointless. She doesn't need a lullaby for starters.
- Unless survivors are really silly or you get lucky, condemn doesn't feel all that impactful.
- Many of her yellow/brown addons feel mandatory.
- A lack of any sort of gap closer or anti-loop hurts her on most maps, and significantly reduces her ability to mindgame effectively.
- Her lack of collision while manifesting hurts her as much as it helps her, as survivors will make a beeline directly through you, making them hard to track and giving them extra distance.
I love her in theory, but she needs to go back into the oven for a while (insert Gordon Ramsey clip).
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@BenZ0 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842953#Comment_2842953
I think the no collision is a good thing and should remain. Ye the lullaby is dumb agree but she doesnt need an anti loop, she is not supposed to be an anti loop killer. I dont see any problem with her height hoenstly, also ye with my idea there would be an reason to use TVs. Tv spawn logic is a pretty sure a bug. And the emergence is actually fine imo, atleast idk what to do against that.
Again keep in mind that just like Clown or Doctor her power is not designed to be strong, she is just an stealth killer which you should view more as a fun killer, not a comp killer.
Why isn't her power designed to be strong?
Do we need another 'below average' killer? Shouldn't we be trying to get below average killers up to snuff rather than adding more?
The issue isn't just her lack of anti-loop. It's that the rest of her toolkit also sucks. Her stealth sucks and her slowdown mechanic sucks. If her stealth was better and survivors actually had to interact with TVs more, she'd be...honestly still not great but better.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842947#Comment_2842947
Sadako can also close with stealth and get the first hit at least as well as Wraith. In fact she can do it a bit easier because she can continue moving at survivor speed on the approach versus having to stop in place to Manifest.
And yes, bodyblocking before Decloaking is the best way to play Wraith. It doesn’t change the fact though that, even if Wraith is literally touching the survivor when he starts to Decloak, the survivor can gain a ton of distance from him by running the opposite direction. Sure, if the survivor runs the wrong direction after the bodyblock they gain less distance, but if they are paying attention and go the right way the Wraith is a good 8 meters away by the time the Decloak finishes and even with his extra speed can’t make that up.
In comparison, Sadako can run up to a survivor in a chase while Demanifested and Manifest when she is close without losing any perceptible distance. It doesn’t matter what direction the survivor is running, she’s always moving about their speed while Manifesting so she can keep up. She also maintains her on-and-off invisibility and has a lower cross section than Wraith, so if she is Manifesting around a corner of a loop for example the survivor won’t necessarily know which way she is choosing to run around the loop.
Believe me, I know exactly how Tru3 plays Wraith and I know what you mean. Sadako isn’t Wraith and her Demanifest is actually smoother than Decloaking in a chase. If you want to see someone putting on a clinic with her, watch Dowsey playing her in chases.
Hmm. No, I disagree.
Firstly, 'x pro player can succeed with x killer' isn't really proof of that killer being fine. Otz did 50 wins on pre-rework Clown and Trapper without addons. I mentioned Tru3 because he's a good demonstration of Wraith's toolkit being used as an antiloop.
Secondly, let me describe the basic counterplay to both killers, as I think that illustrates my point.
- Wraith: he stealths in, you notice him once he's in vision radius if you're paying attention. He zips to you, bodyblocks you, decloaks and hits you. This first hit is almost impossible to avoid if he's not silly. Then you run to the closest safe loop and it becomes a back and forth - you trying to stay ahead, him trying to get into a position where he can bodyblock you again or decloak on a switchback to hit you. Or, if there is no CoH in play, he gets that first hit then zips off to pressure elsewhere.
- Onryo: you hear her coming either via the lullaby or out of a TV. You move to safety or hide in grass (her tiny size makes it incredibly difficult to spot survivors hidden in grass, a bit like pre-rework Blight). She finds you, demanifests and you run directly through her before she can hit you. She chases, gets a hit and you run to the loop. Now she's a standard M1 killer at a loop, but without any tools to do a reliable mindgame or shorten the distance.
I'm watching Dowsey now. The guy is good, but all he's doing is outplaying people with an M1 killer. He'd be playing very similarly on Trapper for instance.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842769#Comment_2842769
- I think her teleport is actually significantly better than Freddy’s. Unlike Freddy she can teleport over and over until she finds a chase if she wants, and she also gets a significant speed boost coming out of the teleport. (Freddy gets snares to make up for his lack of speed in loops, but that’s nothing to do with his teleport.) Also Freddy can only teleport to gens that aren’t finished, so by the end of the match his options are limited and he notably can’t teleport near the gates once the gens are done. Sadako’s TVs last the whole match, so if she needs to teleport somewhere near a completed gen she can still do it.
- Her Demanifest is also significantly better than Wraith’s Decloak because, unlike Wraith, she still moves at about survivor speed while Demanifesting. Wraith slows to a miserably slow speed while Decloaking, enough so that even with the extra speed he gets afterward the survivor will still get a huge amount of distance from him by the time it’s finished. The only way he gets hits out of a Decloak is by trying to bodyblock or Decloak from hiding and catch survivors offguard so they get confused about which way to run away. Sadako can pretty much Manifest and Demanifest midchase with little problem, and even gets a bit of an edge by Manifesting midchase since she is still intermittently invisible during it.
I’m not trying to claim she’s “great”, but she definitely feels like she’s better than her counterparts in those respects.
- I'm not sure if I agree with that. They both feel about on par. She can teleport more often, but is entirely reliant on TV spawn logic, which can put them into completely useless places - a floor above the gen, for example, or in a corner of the map facing a wall.
- Freddy also has an anti-loop tool (which she doesn't).
- Wraith's decloak is entirely superior. You can bodyblock (the key to playing Wraith) while Sadako can just be run through. His stealth is reliable, hers is...pointless. He gets a gap closer coming out of stealth which offsets the pause (and can actually be used strategically). Basically: Wraith is almost guaranteed the first hit if he's smart, then has to chase. Sadako has to chase from word one.
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@IronKnight55 said:
Idk. I've played her for hours and thought she was a decent killer. Obviously not as strong as some killers but that's ok. I think condemn should be more threatening and maybe the TVs should have a shorter cooldown after teleporting. Either way she's my new main.
Enjoy, I guess.
To me, Condemn being mostly pointless isn't the only issue. The issue is that she feels like she's balanced around a stealth toolkit she doesn't actually have and also lacks a gap closer.
I'm...okay with a new killer being mid 'B' tier (Cenobite style), but we should be trying to get killers below 'B' tier (making them weak, below average killers) up to snuff - not adding more weak killers.
Another thing I'm noticing is that people have learned to run straight through you while you demanifest or lead you into grass/corn - where she cannot see anything (Blight on release had the same issue).
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@TheycallmeLix said:
When Nurse was disabled, it was much better because the team wouldn’t throw the game immediately when they found out its a Nursie. The game was something special and I enjoyed the weeks when she was disabled because you didn’t have to worry about the slugging Killer that sweats for the 4K.
What are you thoughts about the Nurse re-enabled?
p.s: this is just a opinion, don’t get upset/triggered about this thread.
@KateDunson said:
Same here also I've got more nurses than sadako, remove her again
Nurse is fine. If anything, looking at her kill rates and following the logic from the Cenobite and Wraith nerfs - she actually needs a buff!
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@BenZ0 said:
The green addon which gives a survivor who completed a heal action one condemned as base kit.
The thing that makes her weak is the easy counter to her hit and run gameplay which is just to heal up really quick. Especially since CoH exists its even weaker and gives the Onryo barely any pressure. However if this addon would be baseline to her there would be a point to keep going with the hit and run gameplay cuz you can build up condemned and therefore pressure/slowdown which is imo a really cool mechanic and adds also some kind of strategic teamplay against her, with this you cannot just brain dead heal up every time against her with your team.
That's not a terrible idea, but doesn't really fix her.
Her issues are:
- Awful 'stealth' that barely even allows to close, combined with no dash and people can just run through you while you demanifest.
- Why does she have a lullaby?
- Absolutely no anti-loop.
- Her height makes for zero visibility in grass - reminding me of Blight on release.
- Survivors have zero reason to interact with TVs until they are very close to max condemn.
- TV spawn logic can put TVs on the wrong floor, facing a wall, under a duck.
- About half her yellow and brown addons should be baked in - as when using them she actually feels 'okay'.
- TV emergence is incredibly telegraphed and it's insanely easy to just go to the nearest safe loop.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842926#Comment_2842926
I stopped watching Tru3 a while ago, he just complains all the time about everything. But I have seen him play Wraith and nothing about how he plays Wraith invalidates anything I said above.
Not quite - Wraith's anti-loop isn't brilliant either. Which is why he's low B/high C tier. But he can at least close with stealth, get the first hit, chase, restealth, bodyblock Tru3 style then decloak and attack.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842615#Comment_2842615
How is Wraith’s anti-loop better than hers? He literally can’t Decloak midchase without giving up so much distance to the survivor that they get away.
Watch Tru3 play Wraith.
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@gamin_gabe123 said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/J2QX6Y0WGPCQ/ffe3be79-a2e0-4a7c-8b4a-4ccc4f7a79d7.jpeg
One of the survivors was bullying him aswell ☹️
Here's what probably happened.
He's new, but had a bit of coaching from you. He was able to flatten the first few groups he went against, and with his MMR being volatile (as he's new) it catapulted him to intermediate MMRs and he got slaughtered.
It's...annoying, but it should stabilize. That said, my matches have been bizarre tonight too.
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842304#Comment_2842304
My instant Survivor Queue during this evening shows that right now Survivors are scarce.
But the rest is correct.
I only saw that tonight, probably because everyone wanted to try the new killer - she's incredibly iconic.
Usually, my morning survivor queues are zippy but my evening queues can take a while.
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@Zozzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842628#Comment_2842628
With or without DMS?
Either.
DMS is wonderful on her, but not essential. Even without it, even decent players will have to let go and get rid of their birds, and then probably hide because you could easily be on your way to them.
These days I run PR + Agi + STBFL (works amazingly well on her) + BBQ (long range sniping). DMS is good, but I've found that sometimes it creates a 'dam' effect, where it stalls the gens out for a while, only to have 3 of them pop at the same time.
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@PeaceNGrease said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842622#Comment_2842622
That is so odd, I may have gotten a single survivor here or there rematched back to back in a solo group, but I don't ever think that's happened to me with a full SWF. Funny time of night I guess?
Morning. Very early morning. It was a Chinese premade. Not a TTV, fortunately - but a very strong group. Fortunately the second time I queued up it was on Hag :).
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@Zozzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842621#Comment_2842621
Artist was clearly designed with bird mines as part of her kit, but they took that away leaving a slow and clunky husk.
I thought that initially, but as I've played her more (and watched a streamer do a streak on her)...she's still stronk. Her ability to shove people off gens from the entire map away and shut down loops is incredible. Definitely one of my strongest killers now, and really enjoyable to play.
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@PeaceNGrease said:
I just 4kd them with Sadoka and I was feeling really good, it can only go downhill from here...
Ever happens to any of you?
Yep. Especially at certain times of day.
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@Zozzy said:
Remember, Weak killers are fine! just don't expect to see them much and enjoy blight and nurse for 50% of your games :)
Artist really made me hopeful regarding future designs. She's...so close to perfect, almost Plague level. Not too strong, not too weak, simple to understand but with an infinite skillcap. Plus her perks were the first real shake-up to the killer meta in ages.
Onryo makes me...the opposite.
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@dugman said:
I haven't seen Otz talk about it today but on his most recent tier list he has Wraith as C tier so it's not surprising if he rates Sadako as B or C tier. She's sort of like a somewhat improved Wraith in chases.
I actually played a few Wraith games to contrast the two, and I'd put her a position or two below Wraith.
Wraith has better anti-loop, more reliable stealth and much better overall mobility.
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@Star99er said:
Personally feel like she’s B tier, her power provides great map pressure and is great at injuring survivors quickly but she does struggle in chase like most M1 killers.
Keep in mind that she'd be sharing B tier with Cenobite, Wraith (maybe), Demogorgon and Nemesis - all of which are objectively stronger than she is.
I think mid 'C' tier is about appropriate. She's about on par with post-nerf Freddy - and actually feels quite a bit like him.
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@hiken said:
didnt miss her never will.
I'm not the biggest fan of playing her (she feels a little one-note) but I've never minded playing against her, unless she goes in hard on slugging.
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@Hannacia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842577#Comment_2842577
Yeah ive had multiple matches when i didnt have to get rid of my condemn stacks at all as a survivor. Only if i wanted to close the tv that was next to my gen forced me to clean them once. If i ignore the tvs all together chances are high that i never need to *make a copy* or *Return the tape* So the effect on the survivors is very small and causes no inconvenience
Against the better survivors I've faced today:
- TVs are totally ignored until much later in the game, if at all.
- If someone gets max stacks, they do a single tape then and only then.
- If you teleport to a TV, smart survivors just hide and then leg it - because there is a lengthy moment where she can't see anything on emerging.
- Going in demanifested doesn't feel much sneakier than going in manifested most of the time, unless you are on an indoor map or the very odd occasion where there's an easy concealed approach - and even then, the lullaby alerts them well in advance.
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@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842577#Comment_2842577
Also remember healthy survivors with tapes are effectively immune to being moried as interacting with TVs takes so little time that you should never get hit twice before you use the right TV.
So survivors as it currently stands can just ignore the mechanic entirely until max stacks then just rush past the killer to remove it.
This is exactly what I've observed. I managed to mori a single person, and that was someone very clearly just curious about the animation.
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@dezzmont said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842576#Comment_2842576
The buff didn't affect the problem part of her power.
It is totally fine to have a 'ticking clock' mechanic that forces you to do something with the threat of a punishment that is unlikely to ever happen. But the buff of making buildup faster with a tape doesn't address that you never ever have to care about the buildup in the first place to make you go DO a tape. So it didn't affect the reason why the mechanic fails as a ticking clock.
This!
I don't think I've seen a survivor even bother taking a tape today outside of 2 games (out of 20ish) where someone hit max stacks towards the end of the game. And that was one solitary person in the entire match.
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@Cameragosha said:
It strange she still weak after buff.
The buff was mostly a QOL thing.
She's still just...weirdly designed. She brings nothing to the table that other killers don't bring (and bring better), a huge part of her kit feels completely superfluous. The other part (her stealth) feels incredibly weak and not working like you'd hope stealth would. On top of this, she has zero tools to help with loops.
At present, playing her is like playing Freddy. And modern Freddy...sucks. Otherwise, it's like playing a heavily gimped Demogorgon without his Shred.
@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842574#Comment_2842574
Well I don't think it should be common for you to pick up condemn kills. But condemn certainly isn't very pressuring as it stands. Survivors don't really need to interact with tvs except to remove condemn because Sadako teleporting to a tv puts it on a longer and is very telegraphed that it's easy enough to get distance while she's in animation.
Condemn as a whole is a silly concept. I'd much rather have a meter that gradually builds up while being in the radius of a TV, with an extra spike if she teleports to you - but rather than making you mori-able, it just makes you exposed and resets if you get hooked or something. It only results in a mori if you are on your third hook (PH style).
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@DatNasty1216 said:
Please BHVR
I agree.
He was fine before the nerf. His stats are misleading, because he's both a free killer and a killer that can be difficult for newer players to handle.
The fact that, taking this into account, he's significantly low on the kill-rate list says a lot about how much that nerf hurt him.
@Haddix said:
no sorry, he was just a tad too overturned! just a wee little OP! just in need of a sliiight adjustment to make him properly balanced!
Was he? I never thought so, and he wasn't exactly blowing up tourney play.
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@OneGoodBoyDemo said:
In a very strange way, but yes, I miss it.
I hope the rework does it justice, but if it doesn't, I'd still rather play on Haddonfield than Badham and Eyrie, these two maps make me more nervous than any other but if it's to be angry, let it be in the unique charm of Lampkin lane.
Eyrie can be tough, but at least it's decent for some killers (it's actually not a bad Demo map). It has a lot of open areas and a lot of space to traverse.
Badham...yeah, that map can go away permanently for all I care. It's ugly, badly designed and needlessly survivor favored.
Haddonfield - I like the aesthetic of it, but it was a cruel map for a lot of killers due to how many stupidly safe 'freebie' gens there were and how ridiculously strong some of the loops were.
I'm also adding Swamp to 'maps I'd be happy to never see again'.
@GannTM said:
Don’t forget to put RPD on that list with Badham and Eyrie.
RPD is a terrible map, but at least it's equally terrible for both sides.
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@Literallyweezing said:
Once a survivor reaches their final condemnation stack they can no longer regress their status. It fits with the lore because once your seventh day is up there's nothing you can do to stop her but within that time frame you can stop the curse.
Eh...I'd rather buff her another way.
Condemnation feels like it needs to build up faster, because right now survivors can pretty much just ignore it in most cases. An entire chunk of her kit is mostly pointless aside from a tertiary benefit of it being a sort-of detection tool.
What feels most off to me is her stealth.
Why does she need a lullaby, for starters?