Slashstreetboy
Slashstreetboy
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@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1854670#Comment_1854670
Eww, linking the literal most biased player, who is genuinely awful at the game is hilarious.
and in the video nowhere does Almo say "we specifically balance players around the 1% of people who play them", if that were the case, nurse would be nerfed into absolute oblivion, same for spirit, Oni & blight. But that just isn't the case.
He specifically says that he works with the statictics by looking at the Kill rates of the top 1% players of each respective Killer, which implies that this is the foundation of his balance decisions.
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Trapper is already a very strong contester for nr1 weakest Killer, and this 100% would be a nerf, since it would remove his ability to outsmart Survivors with a mixture of obvious and obscure traps around the same area. Basement play is one of his very few strengths.
Let poor Evan have his few select mild strengths, I´m very baffled to read about a Trapper nerf suggestion of all Killers.
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I´d love those stats!
Propably not much suprise though. Just imagine how often would team Agony, Kanapek or Shift W gamers escape against the average pub Killer? Well over 90% guaranteed. Top 1% Solos propably more around 75-80%, but we won´t know till the stats are shown.
The video that @ZaKzan tries to post explains a reasonable way of gathering better data on that.
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@Mandy said:
Without a video recording of cheating there's no proof, so without proof there's not much that can be done I'm afraid.
Well not gonna lie that´s very disheartening to hear. I don´t wanna come off as disrespectful but I didn´t expect BHVR to be completely helpless against hackers.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1853906#Comment_1853906
The one bjorks showed me litterally had no comparison and he just said he wants to play minecraft so I couldnt prove him wrong on native. That isnt good evidence. The true video the tiles it tries to prove its cheating can see the killer on native. The only difference is the extra fog.
Tell me when you are free and we can trust this is in customs. All stretch does is give more distance that you can see which doesnt help at all in a chase.
I'll hit you up within this week if you have time. I'm very curious as to how you wanna approach this tbh.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1853889#Comment_1853889
The only advantage is more few of distances which like I said before doesnt matter when you scout the map before hand.
Also if you dont win a mindgame you are gonna use "oh its stretched res" and an excuse right? If it was an advantage any tretched player would never go down. Because by your logic it makes loops, car loops.
You have yet to provide me those unmindgameable loops.
If the pictures that were shown here aren´t proof enough for you, what else could I tell you? Maybe I am just a trash Killer who doesn´t know how to shrink my character model mid chase so the Survivor can´t see my every move, idk, please teach me if you can.
And yes, all but the safest tiles with solid LOS blockers are "car loops" with stretch res, there´s so much evidence here for that, and if a Survivor gets outplayed by a Killer they can literally clearly see over the wall I wouldn´t know what to tell them, either.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1853852#Comment_1853852
I guess, but you will never know just.hoe much of a "cheat" it is then lol.
Why are you ignoring everything I said. I'm defending the "exploit" for a reason. It isnt cheating. Its frowned upon becuase alot of killers cant take an L. One streamer complained stretched res made shack impossible to mindgame. That's your opinion if it doesnt paint me well. To be fair it's way more killer stretched players than survivor so what do you have to say to that?
1080 x 1080 isnt cheating. Same way you can say you bet there is a bunch of 1080 players I can say there are a bunch of native players.
Alright, it "technically" isn´t cheating, but it´s as close as it gets with using unfair advantages that are not bannable.
I really hope you´re right and there are a bunch of native res players, because that means they have a rudimentary understanding of fairness, something that stretch res players obviously lack.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1852668#Comment_1852668
If you havent used or even know he to stretch why make such an argument when you arent fully informed.
True talents video showed stretched beyond the ones people actually play. 1280 x 720 is what I think it showcases. To be fair all you can see is more distance. Even in the trapper one where you can see beyond the rock, you can run spine chill or just go to the sides and use your horizontal fov to 3rd person peak.
Yes I am denying you can see more of the killers if anything its cheating for killer since you can mess with the flashlight blind angles and see normally when fatigued. Bet you didnt know that because all you were focused on is that it makes loops unmindgameable.
So since you quite that what loops are unmindgameable with stretched? Ussylis says so but what loops are the unmindgameable ones? Jungle gyms? Surely not becuase if you hug the loop you arent seeing more of the killer.
This I can somewhat get around to but I wouldnt play on anything stretched more than 1440 x 1080.
I don´t need to know how to replicate it to see its effect.
Keep defending this kind of exploit, I see there´s no point arguing you on this one. Just know that it´s frowned upon for good reason, and you trying to make up excuses and downplaying it doesn´t exactly paint you in a good way tbh.
And you don´t know what "people actually play", I bet there´s tons of scummy people out there that play on 1080x1080 to make their matches as unfair and miserable for their opposition as possible.
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@Exerath1992 said:
All you people saying this means the game is broken... You're wrong. If these guys went against a better, more prepared killer, it woulda been an even match. They ran that about as effectively as possible, but on-point killers can make SWF groups look like beginners. Just because this is one of the better teams out there doesn't mean they can't be beaten
Even the best Killer in the world using the best possible loadout would barely stand a chance against this. This vid doesn´t prove the game is broken, but it shows that there are pretty broken combos still remaining in the game.
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@Xyvielia said:
I don’t drink alcohol and I don’t use narcotics, (unless coffee is taken into consideration) in which case, I’ve played DBD completely lit-up on espresso like a absolute boss☕️
You´d make a great final girl/guy :D
@Jyn_Mojito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1853357#Comment_1853357
Well, there's this sweet spot called *The Zone*, and it takes a different amount to get there for each person. I find one gin cocktail helps me feel less self-conscious, especially in a SWF. That extra confidence helps me try for better plays.
Now if I overshoot The Zone, I consistently blow gens and get lost in the EGC. Also, sometimes I can be found whispering at corn and bushes, 'Claudette, dat you???'
I bet you overshooting just a tad must be great to have around :D
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For me it´s Ghostface. The difference between his FOV and my mains (all tall) throws me off sometimes.
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By the way, do you have any advanced tips for playing shack and short wall gyms correctly? I know how to run these with a standard M1 Killer, but these always give me the hardest time with Oni.
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Teabagging will stay. How else would Survivors communicate to the Killer to kill themselves, that they suck, what they did to the KIllers mom and they should uninstall before post game chat?
You just have to endure it, it´s part of DBD culture at this point and many people would quit if they couldn´t BM the Killer massively.
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@PiiFree said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1851358#Comment_1851358
I think that's where it comes down to in the end; A Killer is mostly powerless when facing a good team of Survivors while good Survivors are always be in the power role - regardless of the Killer.
The Killers power lies in utilizing the most from the mistakes the Survivors made. If they make no mistake, you can't apply pressure and therefore lack any form of power. It's not like that when playing Survivor - then you're in the power role UNTIL you make a mistake. Only then the tables can turn to the Killers favour.
When 5 players of equal skill and preparation meet, the Killer has much lower chances of winning and that's what makes those matches unbalanced and unfair.
This only holds true for most matches. There are Killers with certain loadouts that have an edge even over strong teams, Spirit with Yakuyoke+MDR with Ruin/Undying/x/x for example. Now that I think about it, that´s propably the only loadout that´s left that has a significant advantage over a good team.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1853279#Comment_1853279
What game delay perks would have prevented this?
Corrupt might have helped a teenie tiny bit, adding maybe 20-30 seconds to the overall match length.
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This is rather rare, but it can happen. While the map is generated, there may occur incidents where the minimum amount of pallets hasn´t been reached due to rng so they get randomly filled to fit said minimum amount iirc.
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Billy was my first co-main to Myers, way back in 2018. In hindsight, I acknowledge how OP he was since a total noob like me got Rank 1 within the first month of playing.
I miss his old FOV and stable camera. Can´t enjoy him anymore due to all the changes to him.
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@UkilledLegion said:
@Aven_Fallen its not my problem ahahahahaha...are u joking?main biuld on this map BROKEN and survivors abuse it
I have to back Aven up on this one. Ironworks can be pretty bad for Killer, Shelter Woods can be rather bad for Survivor, but the other ones are pretty solidly balanced. Storehouse has 1 window that can be problematic depending on the Killer you are playing and that´s it.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1852747#Comment_1852747
Just imagine that the killer could equip OoO. He could see the obsession wherever he is.
The survivor outcry would be so hard, devs would instantly rework it.
And it would still be leagues weaker than the Survivors object lol
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1852480#Comment_1852480
Dying light was unfun for survivors.
OoO isn't.
Good point. I think there´smore to it, though.
Ethan got such overwhelming amounts of negative feedback for his stance on Object. There are so many good reasons to fix the perk. No reason to leave it as it is when everyone except a handful of people know how broken it is.
At this point, I think they are leaving Object in its current, horrible form just to spite the community. We need to be taught what we want and what is good for us, after all.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1852568#Comment_1852568
But it keeps them injured for longer and potentially gives you 16m of distance on them because no-one wants to be injured agaisnt Oni.
True, Sloppy has value, I just think the other options are better.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1852419#Comment_1852419
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1852651#Comment_1852651
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1852645#Comment_1852645
Have any of you guys used stretched res? Ussylis who recently went back to native after all the hate seems to be able to loop the same way. To compare stretched res to a car loop filler is absurd. Show me proof of you being able to see more of the killer if they hug the loop on 1080 x 1080, 1440 x 1089, and 1600 x 1080.
Environmental awareness is something you can gain by scouting the map before hand like a good survivor. Do the extra distance becomes nothing special. Slasherstreetboy if you think hes bad we can ways set up a 1v1 and you can handle your business.
I don´t use stretch res, I don´t even know how to do it, and neither do I cheat in any other way, shape or form.
The most recent showcase, Truetalents vid in this post, should be enough to convince anyone about the tremendous advantage it provides. If you can´t see that, I really don´t know what to tell you.
Also, you denying that it isn´t beneficial to see the exact moves of the Killer at all times regardless of visual obstacles that usually would obscure them is baffling.
But whatever, if some people need this kind of unfair crutch to play, it´s up to BHVR to fix it, feel free to ride the ez mode wave till then.
Edit: Since you brought up Ussylis, here´s a quote from him:
"Unfair? Sure, that's your opinion. Might I add that I don't even use 1080x1080, which undeniably can make loops literally unmindgamable, while my stretched res 1600x1080 is only slightly stretched. I use it cause I've been used to it from the years of gaming before DBD."
Reading this inclines me to at least acknowledge that it depends on the degree to which resolution gets stretched whether it can be considered cheating or not.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1852196#Comment_1852196
The only reason it's not cheating is because you can see more distance not more of the killer. If the killer hugs the loop like the survivor you wont see them. That's why I was able to mindgame him. Hes a good survivor. The only thing that's cheating is actually fov cheats which let's you third person peak without going to safety corners and seeing over actual loops.
But you CAN see more of the Killer. It´s like having wallhacks at most tiles. You also have far more environmental awareness than someone who doesnt abuse the exploit.
And if you can mindgame your friend even when he´s using stretch res, maybe he´s not as good as you think, it would be like successfully pulling off a moonwalk mindgame at a car loop.
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@TheBigBingus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1852564#Comment_1852564
yeah sorry man, I don't have any recording software, my bad! if I ever get some and have another match like that ill be sure to post it down the line! :)
I´d love that! I don´t record either, so it´s understandable.
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Drop sloppy. It does make the Survivors bleed more, bt doesn´t make them drop more orbs per se.
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@TheBigBingus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1852007#Comment_1852007
I believe another guy posted recently about a tournament squad with 4 brand new parts going for a world record, I've beaten a squad like that before. I got kinda lucky and slugged all 4 at 2 gens left, but still destroyed them in chase. ive beaten a few bully squads that abuse DS unbreakable and play like #########, but i don't know any particular names. however i have played against Monto and his friends once, i got 3 of them but monto escaped through the hatch. a fitting end XD
Darn, I was hoping maybe you had a vod in which you destroyed ShiftW Gamers, Agony or Oracle. I´ve only ever seen Oni get utterly destroyed in a competetive setting.
Monto´s a cool dude though.
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Which teams have you beaten? I´d love to watch that, since I´m currently tryin to git gud at Oni. Close to 200 games addonless in and I can´t wait to try some out.
STK being broken is something that´s brought up very often, I think your suggestions make sense.
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I´d suggest a different solution.
After 2 minutes of neither moving nor recovering, you can recover the last bit to get up once per trial. Unbreakable could be tweaked to just speed the process up to the current form (and the bonus recovery should fade after you got picked up from the ground once, be it by yourself or by someone else).
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That would be great. If you are on steam, you can at least check your own stats (overall) and check those of others out on a website.
It was shocking to see how high certain people have scored in certain categorys, for example TheEntityLeftHand having 10k bear trap catches whereas Otz has around 1500. There´s also a guy who downed almost 23k Survivors with Onis power.
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@Seiko300 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1849690#Comment_1849690
Absolutely not.
The thematical direction of the game has always been serious, and this has made clear by the devs from the start. Regardless if the community likes to add the Benny Hill theme behind a survivor looping a killer for 4 generators, doesn't change the fact that the fantasy of Dead By Daylight has always been of a serious horror fiction. Proof of this can be found in nearly every chapter release / teaser / spotlight trailer that Dead By Daylight has released ever.
The community can take all the creative liberties they want to make fun and poke jokes at things that are seemingly random or out of place, but give anything in Dead by Daylight proper context, a creepy soundtrack / musical score, and a good story, and I guarantee you every single cosmetic or character could be a serious and legitimate addition to any horror film.
People like to laugh and chuckle at the idea of Dwelf running around in his tights and little jingle bells ringing as he loops a killer who cannot catch him. But add a few details and think of a movie scene and he can easily fit as a character in a horror movie:
Enter Dwight Fairfield, depressed and lonely, suffering from debt during the holidays, is desperate, and forced to humiliate himself by working as an Elf part time at the mall. The ears were irritatingly ridiculous, the sweater itched, and his tights were a weathered second hand pair that he was forced to borrow after his original pair ripped. He was tired from working overtime during the nights but he needed all the money he could get, he had no choice, on the way to his car he felt a chill run down his spine. Like he was being watched, pranked by his co-workers once again? Looking for another chance to make fun of him again no doubt, but no... that wasn't it.. then he saw what was making him nervous. A big man across the parking lot staring at him, probably homeless, a shattered red Christmas ornament over his nose, and wearomg a Santa coat that was somehow too small to close properly. There was something unsettling about this man... Dwight narrowed his gaze but didn't realize the threat before him and by the time he did it was too late.
Eh I spent some 5 minutes writing that, not the best but you get the point.
First, nicely written! A little more fleshed out and this could land on r/nosleep.
I disagree though, I can´t help but feel the game gets goofier and more comedic as time goes by. It´s barely recognisable as a serious slasher game at this point in my opinion. If they stated it was supposed to be serious, they shot themselves in the foot by releasing a truckload of funny cosmetics with gimmicky effects, same with event flashlights, Victor who I´m 100% sure will get a Leprechaun and/or a Gummybear skin at some point and all that stuff.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1851668#Comment_1851668
You're not wrong, but Oracle is the top 0.001% of players. Someone could play daily for a year at rank 1 and never encounter 4 survivors that skilled on the same team at the same time.
Yes, of course they´re an exxagerated example. I only used them because they are good to highlight the issue. That being the higher the skill of both parties, the less viable M1 play is on many maps. Even holding W and running straight ahead after a hit, using the speedboost well, extends a chase by 20-30 seconds easily against a 115% M1 Killer, and more if the Survivor can reach a tile (and let´s be honest, you can make it almost anywhere after a hit if you time it well).
Thankfully, 8/10 Survivors at red ranks (no offence) just aren´t good so it´s not a problem that arises every game, but a 20k hrs+ SWF (which are not that rare) definately will impressively highlight how M1 play is for the most part harder for the Killer than for the Survivor.
Thats why I like reworked MacMillan. Better balance of safe and unsafe pallets, jungle Gyms that enable mindgames (unlike new Autohaven, especially with stretch res) and new Ormond, for example.
Also, it´s sufficient if 1 or 2 Survivors are good loopers if you happen to come across them first. If they have a good setup, you have to leave them, but if you realise this a couple seconds too late that´s 3 gens popping and nothing gained, at which point the game is over unless the Survivors deliberately throw it.
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As someone who mains Trapper and Myers, agreed, you need to be a great M1 player to make them viable.
That being said, many maps are hellish with them because tile design and density are so massively stacked in Survivors favor. Cowshed being an example, there is not a single unsafe pallet on this map, but a couple god windows, shack, and 15+ safe pallets. A good team of Survivors (like oracle for example) can not lose against an M1 Killer there unless they choose to do so.
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They are certainly not the worst Killer. In fact, they are among the select few Killers that are viable to be played competetively. It´s a matter of practice and tactical approach.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1851430#Comment_1851430
Yes, but this game is a complete outliner. This will not be happening on a regular basis, never. And BHVR should also not have to deal with such extreme situations, there are far more important things to do when it comes to balancing IMO.
They can look into the BNP, even tho I would not say it is that strong, given the fact it is an Iridescent Add On (it just is the strongest Add On because Toolboxes got nerfed into the ground), but thats about it.
I dont really care for that type of games, I have over 5k hours and have not seen one game like this. And if that is happening, yeah, whatever. OP also has over 4000 hours and this is the first time happening, so I guess it is rare enough to not really have too much weight.
Yes, no doubt this is not a regular game and clearly an outlier. I have a little under 2k hrs and have seen matches like this less than ten times.
I still think this kind of match should be addressed in some way. As long as they can hit the skill checks and have a few BP to spare, almost any team that isn´t new to the game can replicate at least similar results with maybe a minute or two added on to that.
I´m always in favor of addressing the broken outliers since it will contribute to a more balanced game overall, hence why I want Spirit and Freddy nerfed, Wraith and Trapper buffed, Keys and Object nerfed and maps to be more balanced to give a few examples.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
And now everyone will pretend like this is the norm and they ALWAYS go against these kind of teams. This is a tournament squad going for a record (at least Deebee is a tournament player, if I remember correctly). The chances that you run into them again with the same loadout are around 0. Chances to find a team like that with that loadout are not that much bigger.
But can we post the records of Kills and pretend those are happening all the time please? I mean, Tofu had a Billy-game where he got a 4K in 2 minutes. Can we pretend that this is happening on a regular basis?
But as I know this forum, only one side winning super-fast is a problem and should not be possible, but if the Killer does that, this is fine. :>
It kinda is. I replied similarly to Mandy.
When a Killer gets a 2 minute 4K it means the Survivors are bad and the Killer is insanely good, period. When Survivors play well, they can not get all downed and Sacrificed in that timeframe.
There is no counter to this kind of genrush though regardless of the Killers skill, given the Survivors are not insanely bad. When the Killer plays well, it does not make any difference.
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@Mandy said:
I would be interested to see the unedited version though - it skipped from having someone on the hook and someone down in a corner to having the hooked person escape and the downed person at full health.
Even in saying that, these matches where teams just focus the gens and not make save and come prepared with toolboxes like that, are pretty rare - it's not every match, that's not to say it's not going to happen at all, but it's rare. And I've seen matches just as quick where the killer has stomped all 4 survivors, again rare but it happens.
The difference being that a 60 second 4 man down is the expression of a tremendous skill difference between the Killer and the Survivors, and cases like showcased by this video highlight a design flaw of the game. There is no chance this man could have won that match regardless of how well he played, but if Survivors play well the possibility of them all being downed in this timeframe is nonexistant.
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@OldHunterLight said:
Looks like a fun match!!!! How dare you think that is not fair????!?!.
Jokes aside, probably going for a world record since that is actually the 1st place record and I mean time wise.
They could have done it faster with no mither+resilience instead of DS+SB though, propably shaving off another 20-30 seconds. Propably depends on the gen spawn, since the Sprint Bursto also shaves time off there.
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Gen speeds are fine, apply pressure /s
On a serious note, quite insane that 2-3 Survivors can finish 5 gens in less than 2,5 minutes. WoW.
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You need to get better at chases. That´s legit the only thing you can do other than ignoring them and instead going for their team.
Also, there are certain maps where the tile design and density is so much in the Survivors favor (which this kind of player is very well aware of) that getting a hit with an M1 Killer is impossible until all the pallets in this section of the map have been broken, and even then it will take a long time, given the Survivor is at least mediocre (e.g: Cowshed, Thompson House). It´s no coincidence that the lowest of the low use farm offerings with Object frequently.
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@dugman said:
So many posters who think that "stretched res" is referring to unusual monitor sizes. In this context Stretched Res is referring to stretching the vertical resolution specifically so that you can see over obstacles in loops that you're not supposed to see over. As in you're playing at a 1:1 ratio instead of roughly a 4:3 ratio. It's a significant advantage in loops because it makes it much harder for a killer to mindgame at the loop when you can see them.
Tru3ta1ent posted a video a while back with side-by-sides of it. The first two examples, for instance, are a normal 1280 x 780 resolution and a stretched 1080 x 1080 resolution. There are no monitors with "1080 x 1080" resolution and no reason to play at that ratio other than to cheat so you can see over things.
If anyone seeing these comparisons can unironically claim stretch res wasn´t cheating, they´re either blissfully ignorant about the power of vision, trolls, or trying to defend their own use of unfair advantages. This is truly disgusting.
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@Asssblasster625 said:
i don’t understand the mirror comment. Scratched mirror is busted on certain maps
Scratched Mirror, yes. Vanity Mirror is about as useful as Iridescent Family Crest.
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I hope DBD will never be free to play. As much as it would make sense given their business model, the cost of time and effort to develop a new account in the off chance a hacker gets actually banned, is the only thing keeping this game from being completely obliterated by hackers.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1851024#Comment_1851024
I mean, his animation changes are the one thing that still throws me off. I can have good games with Billy, but sometimes it just feels weird to play him.
I dont care about the Add Ons personally, I did not run any before, and I will not start running them now. And IMO Billy did not need Add Ons to begin with.
I agree he doesn´t exactly need them for most matches. Idk, I´m just disappointed that they went to town on him on several levels, namely addons, base mechanics, fun (FOV, bobbling, roar) and gave him basically nothing to compensate.
I´m unironically glad you can still enjoy him, apparently that´s a remarkably rare occurence among Billy players.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1822762#Comment_1822762
Yeah, he is still good to play. Maybe some more players will return to BIlly when they see that he did not get gutted at all.
I remember when nobody played Spirit when she got her (hopefully first...) Nerf. This was a good time. Then everybody realized that she is still strong and everyone played her again. D:
It´s been half a year. I share many peoples experience of basically never seeing any Billys.
I don´t even mind his reduced power level, the bobbling POV is what throws me off the most and made me quit him for good. Also, they really did him dirty with the addons. Bubba is so much better now, I think only people truly dedicated to Hillbilly as a character still play him.
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That´s actually a great idea and would give hemmorage some much deserved usefulness!
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I sometimes find myself unable to Kill Fengs, especially when they wear cute outfits.
Strangely enough I got 0 problems with relentlessly killing Davids despite him being my main.
I very much enjoy killing Claudettes though, a little more than the average player does for sure.
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A jungle map with ancient ruins would be great
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I´d love them to make a return. It looks....strange having the characters be as stiff as a rock even when they are fluffy.
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On a somewhat even playing field, the Survivors are expected to win most of the time. This is quite evident in tournaments like BOTB, where insane veteran Killer mains using the strongest Killers face insane Survivor squads.
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Multithousand hour SWF with Object and the sweatiest loadouts and items, keys included, always accompanied by a Haddonfield, Midwich or Farm offering. I´m so tired of facing these.