Saiph
Saiph
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411497#Comment_3411497
He was, at the very least, the best Winston player. And in 2018, Winston and D.Va made up the strongest tank comp. This many years removed, I couldn't really comment on his ability to play other tanks--he was good at the ones that mattered. To count his other tank play against him would be like discrediting a Blight main, because they're not as good at Trapper.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411505#Comment_3411505
I over-simplified the Yoichi vault, because you tried to sell it to me as a mindgame, when it was in no way, shape, or form a mindgame. Yoichi telegraphed his vault from a mile away. We all saw it.
I'm sorry what? Will you make such bold deductions in real games
Yes. It's not really a bold deduction. It's no different than assuming a Killer running Enduring and Brutal will also have Spirit Fury. If you see a Bubba break two pallets with Enduring and Brutal, you are a fool for dropping the next pallet on his head.
I misspoke tho, which is probably your confusion here--that is on me. I meant to say Compound 21, the one that reveals aura off of slam. The Blight wasn't using Compound 21, but Yoichi should assume he is, until he can verify that Blight is running something else.
Okay, so Yoichi goes under to the pallet. Lets say Blight followed him down the path Yoichi ran, instead of going through main. What do you think would have happened next? I'll tell you: the same exact result we saw in the video, because that pallet isn't safe.
I tried to explain to you that Yoichi shouldn't even be looping Blight around main in the first place. It was an objectively bad place to take the Killer, based on experienced map knowledge and the limited information Yoichi had available. It was a doomed play from the beginning.
I'm not picking 50/50s--the comp survivors are. They make these horrible macro decisions in chase, and then wind up in 50/50 plays, when they can put themselves in better positions that keep them alive much longer. If these survivors were actually any good, we wouldn't see so many 50/50s, because there are loops even Blight can't force into a coinflip.
Am I speaking another language or something? The survivor gameplay in this video is unimpressive. So many avoidable mistakes. This is allegedly the best comp team in DBD, and I can confidently say that I've seen better survivors in pubs.
Even if you meant "He has Lethal then he probably has C21" that doesn't make much more sense. Lethal+BBQ is extremely common on Blight regardless of add-ons and even though it "synergizes" with C21, other Blight add-ons are way more busted, that even if you would know for sure Blight has Lethal it would still be the more rational decision to assume C33.
"Yoichi shouldn't even be looping Blight around main in the first place. [...] It was a doomed play from the beginning."
EVERYTHING is doomed play against C33 Blight at this level. You can't drop pallets, you can't greed them, you can't loop, and you can't hold W. Blight has a solution to all those scenarios.
The survivors are not expected to last long in chase at this level. Put this Blight against god loopers, they wouldn't last significant longer, unless they are extremely lucky with the 50/50s. ( @Sava18 this is also my reply to you by the way, I can't comment on Kaz being toxic as I haven't watched this series, but him losing 1v1 quickly does not say much about his skill, because it's the expected result).
"I can confidently say that I've seen better survivors in pubs"
Dan (the Yoichi) holds the record for the longest escape streak in pubs. That's 219 WINS IN A ROW (win = 3e or more).
So no, you aren't facing better survivors in pubs, and if you would face Yoichi, you would be lucky to get 1k.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411447#Comment_3411447
You're operating under the false assumption that the "best team in the world" has the best players in the world.
The two do not correlate, especially for a game in which many view the comp scene as a joke. Not everyone who is talented is going to be crawling towards comp DBD.
Instead of dealing with hypotheticals, I can use xQc as a real world example here. He was unrefuted as the best tank in Overwatch. Not only was he not on the best team in OWL back in 2018, but he wasn't even in OWL after that year. You know what happened after he left? He became a millionaire.
Why would the best players waste their time making pennies in comp DBD when they can make a living creating content?
You think my opinion doesn't matter because I don't have accolades, while I'm breaking down the game theory to you.
I don't need to play comp DBD to prove I know what I'm talking about. I can break the game down play-by-play and show you that I know what I'm talking about.
Why are you hung up on Yoichi's window fake? I already told you he shouldn't have even put himself in that terrible position. There is no point talking about it, when a survivor with actual talent would have been smart enough to take chase elsewhere.
You're picking the wrong hill to die on, my friend. Yoichi didn't make a single good play in that video.
I did not exactly they are the best players in the world, I said that they are the best comp team, and that they won DBD League, both are facts.
As you say though, that doesn't necessarily mean you can't criticize them.
But it turns out that I find your analysis also extremely lackluster.
I pick the window vault example because it's very telling. From my perspective, Yoichi goes for a 50/50 mindgame, but presses the vault a few frames early and the killer notices it thanks to insane reaction time, converting it to a 100/0. I feel like that's worth mentioning. And yet, you describe the whole situation as:
"Yoichi just ran at the window and vaulted it. "
I'm sorry, but that's just describing what happens on the screen, while leaving out key details.
Then you say "If blight has found him within 3 sec of the start, then he likely has Lethal Pursuer, and then he most likely has Compound 33. He should not try to hide against Blight.". I'm sorry what? Will you make such bold deductions in real games - ie. where you're not able to see the perks on the screen in specator mode? C33 has nothing to do with Lethal. The killer picked Lethal because BBQ+Lethal are generally good perks on Blight.
When Yoishi "hides" it's because the killer mindgamed again instead of following him. If Yoichi had held W, he would have lost him, but he didn't hold W because he's facing a Blight and that seems like a stupid thing to do, so again, good mindgame by the killer, notice it even confuses both commentators and yet again, you don't mention anything, simply saying:
"Once he is found, he insta-drops an unsafe pallet. Another blunder. That pallet isn't safe unless he stuns Blight, so now he just gave Blight a free pallet and a down."
... do you have a magical way to predict whether a killer will get stunned by a pallet? Had Yoichi not dropped the pallet and took a hit, you would have said instead "this Yoichi made a huge blunder, greeding a pallet against a C33 Blight."
I feel like you're picking random 50/50s that happened in the match. When the survivor wins it, you say it's obvious or you don't mention it, and when they lose the 50/50, you say they made a huge blunder.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411250#Comment_3411250
It's neither here nor there. I don't care to convince anyone--just thought I'd share my 2 cents on the matter.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411365#Comment_3411365
So comp survivors have adapted and do things that look suboptimal
They also do things that are genuinely suboptimal. Comp teams don't need to be super efficient in chase, because they can complete the objective even when people are going down left and right.
Maybe this needs to be said, maybe it doesn't... I've 3k hours in DBD.
That entire game was plagued by terrible decision making on Yoichi's part, starting with going to main.
First though, I'll address the 'mindgame.' It wasn't a mindgame. Yoichi just ran at the window and vaulted it. Of course a comp Killer is going to notice the medkit disappear. Yoichi shouldn't have even put himself in that situation, but since he did, his best course of action was to fake the vault, then medium vault when the killer commited towards the window.
Now lets rewind.
Yoichi spawns on corner of main and can see the back window is closed. That is his first hint that main building might not be a safe tile against Blight. What does he do? Goes there anyway--idk, maybe he was feeling lucky the other back window would be open.
It's not, so he is forced to loop up to a window that is objectively unsafe. Unsurprisingly, he gives Blight a free healthstate.
Now what does Yoichi do? He tries to hide around main.
Blight found him in under 3 seconds at the start of the match--he can assume Blight has Lethal Persuer. If Blight has Lethal Persuer, there is a good chance he has Compound 33. Yoichi should not be trying to hide against Blight. Lets give him the benefit of the doubt tho, and assume he has already determined Blight had Blighted Crow.
Once he is found, he insta-drops an unsafe pallet. Another blunder. That pallet isn't safe unless he stuns Blight, so now he just gave Blight a free pallet and a down.
Later in the video, Yoichi finishes the gen on main, receives multiple notifications that he is hindered, and can't put 2-and-2 together that Blight knows he is hiding nearby. Again, he hands Blight a free healthstate (two, actually).
The only survivor in that entire video that showed any competency was Zaka.
I could write a thesis on all the major blunders the rest of them made in these games.
Don't go around diagnosing people of the Dunning Krueger effect when you don't know anything about them. You can debate me on my logic, but you can't just claim I've cognitive bias and I'm actually a novice, when you haven't heard my thought process.
*Edited for brevity.
This is kind of puzzling, tbh.
You have 3k hours at DBD and allow yourself to claim: "The only survivor who showed any competency was Zaka".
You realize these "not very competent survivors", are Zaka's teammates in TEAM ETERNAL ie. they are literally the best comp team in the world?
Not only do they each have 5x your number of hours, but they spent these hours practicing against other top players, while you probably spent most of yours against pubs.
Now which scenario do you think is more likely to be true: either you are right and these players are not very competent compared to you (btw then you should enroll to DBDLeague ASAP because they are the ones who won it) or you are wrong and this is the literal definition of the Dunning–Kruger: you are make very dubious critics of experts, while not being an expert yourself.
"Of course he noticed the medkit disappear", of course, that literally requires a few frames of reaction time btw, and even Otzdarva thought he would fake the window so you are better than Otz (15k hours btw) and the 2nd thing you are also missing is that if the survivor had waited a bit more to vault the window, then there wouldn't even be any medkit frame, so it would indeed be a 50/50. For someone who could "write a thesis on this game", I'm surprised you didn't mention that.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411021#Comment_3411021
Far from it.
As @HugTechLover started getting into, comp has a different demand than pub games. Are comp Survivors harder to beat that pub Survivors? Absolutely. Are they better than pub Survivors? Not that I've seen. They just have one very important element that pub games lack--teamwork.
Comp doesn't demand that Survivors be the greatest loopers, because they already have the numbers and resource advantage. They can all go down instantly in every chase, and still 3-4 escape, so long as they play the macro game correctly.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411133#Comment_3411133
It's really tough to compare DBD to any physical sport, when the game lacks so much mechanical skill.
To become a professional athlete in any sport, you need to surpass certain benchmarks of success, because they are considered "average" at the highest level of play. These benchmarks include things such as speed, strength, dexterity, reaction time, etc.
DBD doesn't have any of that. A Survivor with 0hrs runs just as fast as a Survivor with 5k hours. A Survivor with 50hrs does a generator just as fast as a Survivor with 500hrs.
All of your skill as a Survivor in DBD is demonstrated in your decision making, which is observable regardless of a Killer's skill.
And the decision making I see in comp, outside of the macro game, is abysmal--at least with respect to displaying individual skill.
This isn't to say that comp Survivors couldn't prove themselves to be some of the best loopers in the game. They're just not being challenged in the competitive scene to demonstrate any of that skill, and thus the Killers in comp aren't required to be the best in chase...which I believe is where you demonstrate how good you are with a chase killer like Blight.
What even does "Good decision making" mean when half of the game revolves around mindgames? For example, is greeding a pallet a good decision? Because that will buy you some time against most experienced killers; however chances are that it won't work against a total noob who doesn't even know what a pallet is...
I think what you don't realize is that good killers win their chases rather quickly. So, if a survivor goes for what looks like the "good decision" to you, comp killers will have predicted that scenario and get a hit regardless. So comp survivors have adapted and do things that look suboptimal, which maybe make them look stupid to you when they fail it, but once in a while it works. I can guarantee your "Best pub loopers" would not last any longer in chase.
I believe you are a victim of a serious Dunning Krueger effect, there are several weird things in your message... first there is actually an insane amount of mechanical speed and reaction time involved in DBD. One example, please watch this clip and tell me if you notice something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8Z8lP_gBJE&t=945s . Good mindgame, right? If you look carefully, there are a few frames where the medkit disappears before the survivor vaults the window, and so the killer dropped early because he knows the survivor doesn't fake it. Even Otz got caught...
And another thing: a survivor with 500 hours is actually faster than one with 50 hours, because the one with 500 hours will be better at hugging walls and hence get more practical speed in a loop vs. one with 50.
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@philward1953 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411136#Comment_3411136
I wouldn't have posted this if I saw that most people were aligned with that statement. Sadly, tons of people seemingly are not with that.
I don't know what the longest win streak is, and I doubt it even breaches 100. I could be wrong though. But, if it is low, this is nothing new. Solo-Q is the "weakest" faction of players.
Then, why did you say:
"If the player plays well enough, then they deserve it"
When you just admitted that it wont be true for the large majority of the playerbase just by their role/killer choice? Specifically, if someone plays well enough in solo queue, do they deserve to win 1000 games in a row too, or not? If not, please correct your OP, as it's misleading. Rather say something like:
"If the player plays well enough (and plays Nurse or Blight), then they deserve it (otherwise not)"
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411136#Comment_3411136
Realistically that's not comparable. Killer is a single person and can fully control everything, that's why you only talk about 4-man swfs in these discussion. Solo is just a single person with no control over their teamates at all and you get teamates with goals other than winning all the time.
Then I believe OP is misled, because they said:
"If the player plays well enough, then they deserve (to win)"
Do you agree that this phrasing is better:
"If the player plays well enough, then they deserve to win. Unless they play survivor and are not a 4-man SWF."
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There is some confusion in your topic.
"If the player plays well enough, then they deserve it"
I think we're all aligned on this.
You know, there are also skilled solo queue survivors out there.
Do you know what their longest winstreak is?
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They want to balance it, sure. But the question is whether they have the ability to do it...
The last few patches have been full of contradictory changes. The nerf attempt to Billy was so out of touch, I have NOT SEEN A SINGLE PERSON who agreed with it. It was so weird and unnecessary that literally everyone, Billy and non-Billy players, killer players and survivors, universally agreed - for once.
In the same PTB, they first nerfed the altruistic healing speed of medkit, then ended up buffing it, to higher than it was before the PTB.
Every single medkit add-on was majorly nerfed except for the 2 problematic ones: Styptic and Syringe, which are now even more busted than before since healing takes much longer. Mark my words, it will take BHVR one more year to realize something I can tell you right now, just by playing the game myself.
In the past few months, we've seen game-breaking bugs left unaddressed for several weeks (first Sloppy then Merciless Storm) even though in both cases the bug was 100% reproducible and involved no particular action other than equipping the perk, so killer players could "abuse" it without even realizing it. That's despite the game having a "killswitch" feature that should precisely prevent these cases.
Idk man. Idk.
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Given the recent reactivity of BHVR I'm guessing you'll have to take a break longer than just one chapter. Tunneling and camping have been rampant for at least 1 year without a change. Maybe they'll be addressed by 2030 for the two solo Q players that are left.
Looking at the last 2 patches, we've had first, one game-breaking bug with Sloppy Butcher, then once that got fixed, one game-breaking bug with Merciless Storm. Both bugs took more than a month to get addressed despite the game having a killswitch feature. Then, in the last patch, they managed somehow to buff Nurse and Artist while nerfing Billy and Clown. Don't know about you but that does not make me very optimistic.
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Blight can't be changed because he has 3 busted add-ons while most other killers have only 1-2. As a result, he slips through the balance team's methodology: after looking at the Excel spreadsheet they have the impression that Blight doesn't have one particularly strong add-on, hence that he must be perfectly balanced, and instead the problematic killers must be Clown and Billy.
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Why? Because the devs allow it, simple.
Facecamping is a good example. It wastes the time of all 5 players in the lobby and in 90% of cases combined with griefing/toxicity (hitting on hook, chasing exclusively the same survivor etc.).
Please watch that, it's hookcamperlol's last stream:
https://clips.twitch.tv/CovertTolerantSalamanderDerp-E7XriVUm8dlTAuy3Any reasonable devs would consider this griefing/toxicity, instead DBD ones view it as a strategy, and have left it unaddressed for years.
As a result, you get players who are normally non-toxic (like me) employ the same unfun playstyles to troll/grief other people, because why not? DBD is the only game who allows you to play like a true sadist and get away with it, so profit while you can.
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I'd say this is an universal experience. A while back I sampled random games from Twitch streamers (solo queue) and their average escape rate was ~30%.
Keep in mind these are 10k hour players, presumably high MMR survivors, so don't expect the situation to be better as a casual player... Some of my Steam friends are streamers so I sometimes watch their gameplay and they have even less than 30%, with regular loss streaks of 5-10 games. Out of 10 games they have 2-3 that feel like a normal game, the rest are straight up stomps, or survivor DCing at 5 gens, or the killer is farming.
Some people on this forum claim their solo queue games are fine, I have no idea how this is possible (probably they play 1 game per month). Literally try it yourself, go click on random survivor Twitch channels and you'll struggle to find one that has even a 50% winrate. Especially look at small channels of casual players with 100-1000 hours. It's almost comical how they keep losing over and over, and even after a 10 loss streak the game still gives them a sweaty Nurse.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402803#Comment_3402803
It's how you beat average teams who play for fun.
As soon as you find a decent team, you'll be taught how poor of a decision hard tunneling is.
It exposes areas of weakness. Try to learn from it when it happens
I play with OP's "strategy" most of the time and have 90% winrate with it in public matchmaking. That means only 10% of the siurvivors I face are "decent". But in reality the remaining 10% fairly often involve excessively bad map RNG and / or mistakes from me rather than good play from the survivors. So by your definition, I'd say 5% of the survivors I face are decent...
Camping / tunneling can be countered sure, when done by a dumb killer who does nothing else. But if you have just a bit of game sense you will manage to distract at least one other survivor while proxy camping, as OP describes. You don't even need to chase them, just move them out of gens. With 2 survivors on gens it becomes really hard for survivors to win, from a pure mathematical standpoint. It is almost impossible for the tunneled survivor to loop for 5 gens, and with deadlock usually it's a 3v1 at 2 gen, which is very easy to win.
The only way I could see the strat fail is if survivors coordinate each other to body block, use perks like deli and Reassurance, actively fight the 3-gen from the start (including the tunneled survivor) and don't get unlucky with map RNG / killer choice. I would not call this just a "decent team". In fact, I'm not even sure if it's possible to achieve this for survivors in solo queue.
The strategy works so well that I would consider DBD a "solved" game.
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@SOULWARRIOR71K said:
I find this to be very strange. By tunneling/camping at 5 gens (and winning), you are artificially pushing your MMR up. And what is the end result? You end up facing more difficult competition ie more coordinated swfs. So sure you will stomp solos and mid level teams for awhile, but to what end? You hit that brick wall and then you'll be stuck in the same type of miserable games that you have been causing for the other side. So if you want to take the easy route out by just tunneling every game, understand that it comes with consequences down the line. Same thing as if you are a low/mid level swf running bnps every game. You'll end up playing those sweaty blights/nurses/spirits with full meta builds. A vicious cycle indeed.
While the premise is nice, and would definitely make sense in most games, it's not true in DBD, where MMR is way too lenient to really matter.
The first time I picked Nurse, I won 36 games in a row. Explain how this is possible if MMR worked.
If you play sweaty in DBD you'll just win all your games, and if you don't then you'll lose all of them.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401926#Comment_3401926
Alright then, so we balance around and for average skill players. Based on that, we need to take a look at the statistics for the AVERAGE player base and see which killers need buffs and nerfs based on that. And if you believe this statement that we should balance around and for the average skill players, that means, that based on the latest statistics we have for kill rates, we need to:
The following killers are slightly overtuned and need to be nerfed:
- Cenobite
- Sadako
- Wesker
- Freddy
The following killers are REALLY underpowered and need MASSIVE buffs:
- Nurse (by far the worst killer in the game)
- Trickster
- Hillbilly
- Demogorgon
- Doctor
The following killers are slightly underpowered and need some slight buffs:
- Trapper
- Blight
- Twins
- Deathslinger
- Huntress
And the rest are probably fine within a +/- 2% kill rate.
So, what major buffs do you think we need to do to pump up the numbers of nurse and blight so they have a higher kill rate. And what changes do you think should be made to Sadako to bring her more in line with some of the more balanced killers like spirit?
All joking aside, by now you are probably realizing my point right?
I know that you're trying to tell that "winrates do not tell the truth" but the stats are actually surprisingly accurate when you factor in pickrate. Imo it's your way to interpret stats that is very misleading.
Nurse winrate is 52%, ie. still above 50%. That's not "MASSIVELY UNDERPOWERED" at all, you realize she still wins more than she loses right.
If you look at pickrates you'll actually realize Nurse has among the best pickrates in the game ( 5.4% pickrate vs 3.4% for the average killer) and especially the highest pickrate at high MMR (6.1%). Note: Wesker does not count at the timing of these stats coincides with the RE chapter release.
You should always look at pickrate when looking at winrates. It is very naive to look at winrates alone, especially in a game where half the killers cost money.
Do you notice how:
- 4/4 of your "slightly overpowered" killers are paid ones ?
- 9/10 of your "underpowered" killers are free ones?
Usually you should look at pickrates and winrates combined. Nurse has 2 to 3 times higher pickrate than Freddy, Sadako, Cenobite, so comparing Nurse vs. Sadako on a 10% winrate difference is completely irrelevant. If 1/10th of Nurse players happen to be new with her - which makes sense since she's one of the default killers available completely for free - then that alone would likely explain the winrate difference.
The stats don't show that Nurse is underpowered at all. She has among the best pickrates in the game consistently, especially at high MMR (most picked killer with higher than average winrate). This seems to indicate that Nurse is strong at high MMR and weak at average MMR, which confirms common knowledge.
Demo has one of the worst winrates despite being a licensed killer, with 2x lower pickrate than most other licensed killers. Considering he's not available anymore, the low pickrate is expected, but it also means that only veteran players play him and so we would expect a very high winrate, yet, he has only 56%. So he might be the actual weakest killer in the game. (Twins and Trickster are candidates too, maybe also Billy and Trapper.)
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The problem with tunneling is not when you're the one getting tunneled, but rather when your (incompetent) teammate is tunneled and you lose the game without anything in your control
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379121#Comment_3379121
Killer queues didn't hit 20 minutes after the 6.1.0 which was also a patch people cried made survivor unplayable. Plus it's not like Killers didn't get any nerfs here either as several popular regression perks got hit.
Lmao... the queue times don't mean anything in this game because after 30 sec or so MMR gives up trying to match players on skill and instead puts people of vastly different skill levels in the same lobby, leading to a stomp.
So basically, the queues won't increase, but expect match quality to decrease (although I have a hard time seeing how it could be worse than what it is now).
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Most survivors who play this game are like this, sadly. Expect to be disappointed a lot in your "play nice" quest.
Once I've even had a survivor tbag me after I gave him hatch.
But still some survivors will recognize it and play nice in return (althoug rare).
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The reason why it was not a good solution back then is because some survivor loops were literally infinite. That's the only reason it could be abused. In modern DBD, you could loop the killer near the hook and you'd run out of resources quite fast.
The amount of intellectual dishonesty on this forum is astounding. It is obvious that OP's solution is not perfect as-is, but it's not hard to come up with something reasonable, like hook timer getting slowed down by ~33% the closer the killer is or something. Even the solution proposed by OP as-is is by far better than what we have now, but sure let's keep doing nothing until only SWFs are left playing this game.
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@DBDVulture said:
-"Killer is the easiest roll by a longshot."
Here's your problem: at the highest skill levels of DBD that is known to be false. This is why when we have DBD comp tournaments the survivors almost always have the limitation : no character/perk/item repeats.
If you find killer to be the easy role then you're either :
1) Playing Nurse/Blight with best addons all the time vs very good players and crushing them
2) Playing Nurse/Blight with literally whatever and crushing mid tier MMR players.
3) Playing low tier MMR players with any random killer and crushing them.
Do me a favor please. Pick your favorite/strongest killer and try to win ~50 games in a row with a 4k. The results don't matter; what matters is that getting somewhere around 50 wins should permanently place all your other killers at 1200 MMR. Now you will see the game in a completely different way.
Here's your problem: at the highest skill levels of DBD that is known to be false.
"Known to be false" ? That's the stats literally published by BHVR. Average 60% killrate, including at high MMR.
This is why when we have DBD comp tournaments the survivors almost always have the limitation : no character/perk/item repeats.
Both roles have restrictions in tournament, not just survivors. Killer players have perk/addon restrictions in tournaments. They are forced to pick their killer in a pool of 3-4 predefined ones which means they must know how to play every killer well. Killers are also forced to play with low ping which gives survivors a massive advantage compared to regular queue. Also it doesn't matter really what restrictions you use since tournament killrates are typically higher than 50%...
Do me a favor please. Pick your favorite/strongest killer and try to win ~50 games in a row with a 4k. The results don't matter; what matters is that getting somewhere around 50 wins should permanently place all your other killers at 1200 MMR. Now you will see the game in a completely different way.
I've done this, and after 300 matches - 90% of which were 3K+ and including a 36 winstreak - I still have the same stance as OP.
There are some tough games sometimes, sure, but these are only against coordinated SWFs with 1000+ hours, and that's pretty rare, maybe 1 game out of 10. For the rest of the matches, the matchmaking barely gives me any better players than it did at the beginning. Half of the players who can't last 10 sec in chase and insta-DC on hook, the other half are good players but solo queue and they lose because their teammates were in the 1st half...
I feel like killer players have very bad memory and only remember the bad games, even though they 4K in most games without realizing it.
And before you say "Nurse" I played Clown, Trapper and Myers. FYI, most killer streamers have got 50-winstreaks or higher if you ask them. Otzdarva did it with every killer including addonless trapper... As for myself, I'm pretty sure I can record a 10 winstreak in just one night, if you don't believe it.
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I've said it before but patch 6.1 bloodweb "improvements" caused this exact problem.
BHVR didn't improve the situation at all, they made the nodes cheaper true, but the new bloodwebs also give you WAY LESS CHOICE.
I mean, just look at this:
On the left, you can choose between:
- 2 medics + 1 syringe
- 3 perks
- 1flashlight + 2 bulbs
On the right, you are FORCED to get:
- 1 perk
- 1 medkit
Aren't interested in a medkit? Too bad, the old system would have let you pick a flashlight instead.
BHVR made the bloodpoint nodes cheaper, true, but due to the forced prestige system, you spend a lot of these bloodpoints on levels 1-30 which offer way less choice than the levels 40-50. As a result you end up with a lot of garbage stuff instead of the items you're really interested in, especially as survivor (who get keys and maps which 99% people don't care about).
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370568#Comment_3370568
For what it's worth, the overwhelming majority of matches have hardly any different in ratings. It is not common for the matchmaker to expand to the maximum range- most people will have a match long before that can happen. It'll be a little more common if you're at an unusually high or low rating or if you're playing in off-peak hours for your region, but at that point there's only so much the matchmaker can do. No matter how long you wait, it can't find you a better match without players of your skill level playing at that time in your region.
How do you explain that the average killrate is not 50% then?
I can very reliably get 10+ winstreaks as killer and I'm not Otzdarva. In contrast as solo survivor I escape ~30% of the time and my MMR clearly doesn't go down.
I trust your good faith but there's just something that is completely off with DbD matchmaking. As killer especially I get matched against baby survivors who cleanse totems for their challenges then the next match against a SWF of 2000+ hours players. I have seen this happen for every single streamer. It definitely doesn't feel like there's any matchmaking at all.
In Overwatch, I played ~2000 games, my winrate turns out to be exactly 50% (1003 wins), same is for most of my friends, and only the top players exceed 50% (they usually reach 55-60%). The top ranked player has 62%. In DbD, I don't know anybody who is even in the 40-60% range, it's either lose every game or win every game.
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@illNicola said:
If the killer tunnel you and you're good in chase there aren't any problems, because you can keep the killer in chase while the others do gens. Survs have thousands of second chance perk, anti tunneling options, but the real counter to tunneling is getting good. I have no problem with tunneling, because I recognise that at high mmr tunneling is needed to win, because if you don't kill fast then enjoy tbag and click click at the exit.
That only works in SWF though. If you're in solo you have only 25% chance of being the person tunneled. Arguably even less as usually killers will rather tunnel the weaker player in your team.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366697#Comment_3366697
thank you for explaining this. I feel like you understand trapper better then otz or any other trapper main player. people don't really understand the strength of iri stone trapper and strength of 3 gen with territorial killers. Iri stone fixes trapper kit. Whenever I play trapper, I rarely ever lose with iri stone. I don't understand why people think trapper is so weak. There is also this weird conception that bloody coil is his best add-on. its so weird. I don't think dead hard ever impacted trapper's viability with iri stone because even if a survivor dh through trap. you just follow them around the loop and now they've wasted DH and still have to walk into trap or leave loop which results free m1 zoning hits. the premise of stealth trapping is not just viable with current trapper's mechanics and SWF knowing every trap is.
The problem with the DH thing you mention is that it didn't work at god pallets. Now with post-nerf DH you can trap god pallets in advance near your 3-gen, I think this makes Iri stone particularly stronger than the best addons. Anyway I agree that the stone was already quite strong pre-6.1
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@TurboTOne said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367145#Comment_3367145
i wanna ask you a Question. How Many Hours do you have in DBD ?
And how Much of that Time is Spend playing Killer ?
But most importantly, how much of that time is spend playing Trapper.
Because Otz has around 10.000 Hours in Dead by Daylight and frequently puts out Guides for Killers, Perks and their Addons. He knows what Trappers Addons can do. But do you really know as much as him ? Are you sure you know more then some Guy who basically makes a living off of playing this Game and is known to know much more about it then most ?
Otz never said anything about Iri stone Trapper. He's mostly speaking about addonless Trapper, which is weak.
I don't know why, but he always insists on playing Trapper with stupid/meme addons, and always rates killers as if they were played by an idiot. He hasn't uploaded a single video with Iri stone in the past 2 years (outside of meme builds).
Like if you watch his own tier list, 4 our 5 of the F-tier killers have addons which completely change how they are played (Sadako, Clown, Myers, Trapper), and if you listen to what he actually says, even him acknowledges that the addons elevate their killers but that he ignores them in the rating. Eg. he says that Tombstone Myers is "disgusting and would be much, much higher in the tier list if rated with this single add-on", and yet he still puts Myers in F-tier and rates his addons as "average". So, people skim through the video, don't listen to what he actually says, and propagate the myths that these killers are weak.
It seems that for Otz, a good killer is a killer that must perform well without addon, but this is absurd, nothing prevents you from using these add-ons in-game...
And even if you insist on ignoring addons, he has a 50 winstreak on trapper without any addon at all... so what exactly does it mean that a killer is weak, if you can win 95% of your games with a meme build?
The only video where I've found Otz actually talk about Iri Stone is his "best addons for each killer" and he rated it A-tier but even there if you listen to what he actually says "this is assuming you don't play it with purple bag otherwise it's much stronger"... so yet again, it seems the rating system is arbitrary, what exactly prevents you from equipping both...? And keep in mind this was pre-6.1 when Iri Stone was much weaker since survs could DH through your trap and extend the loop.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366869#Comment_3366869
Oh my goodness. Why did I never think of that? Thank you for telling me where to place traps.
Seriously, it's not that hard to figure that part out. Funnily enough survivors will mostly ignore these loops. And as soon as you're a few meters away someone will disarm your traps. Even with the Bloody Coil your traps will get disarmed. The Iri Stone is not gonna stop survivors from doing gens and running away from your traps. If you really think Trapper is anywhere near one of the A-tier killers, I can only assume you mostly go against survivors that play with their feet.
Good survivors won't even try to disarm your traps once they realize you have Iri stone...
It doesn't matter if they successfully disarm the trap, because the trap will reset literally WHILE THEY ARE LOOPING THE TILE. It's funny how you claim yourself that "it only works against survivors that play with their feet" and yet you give bad advice on how to play against it... You also keep mentioning bloody coil for some reason, but Iri stone should almost always be played with one of the bags (purple ideally), otherwise it's way less strong because it keeps resetting the random traps.
"Survivors will mostly ignore these loops" easier said than done, that often means they will lose the chase especially if you camp a 3-gen from the start and trap every other loop. Again, maybe this counterplay used to work pre 6.1 but with DH nerf and the 3-gen meta it just doesn't work anymore.
Give this add-on a try again. You'll almost never lose
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@NerfedFreddy said:
Survivors are weak and need to be buffed further. HUD icons feels like cosmetics change, killers are too much ahead and powercreep every update. A lot of survivors perks should be buffed in the way the did with windows and any means necessary.
It is unfortunately not that simple.
Sure, solo queue is horrible (imo, it has never sucked so hard)
But survivor is still not 'weak'. If you get a team of 4 good survivors who decide to not play 'nice' (M1 gen, syringes etc.) then it's unwinnable for most killers.
Which leads to a balancing nightmare. Killers believe the game is survivor-sided because they face these sweaty survivors. But meanwhile, solo queue survivors lose all their games and think the game is killer-sided. Both sides are actually right from their perspective.
The average killrate is 60% which seems like a balanced number, but the reality is, half the playerbase wins 80% of their game, and the other half loses 80%.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366669#Comment_3366669
Of course. And Myers is the strongest killer in the game with Tombstone Piece.
Over millions of years different species have evolved. Most humans have something called "eyes". These "eyes" can be used to spot and avoid traps. The Iri Stone is worthless against people with the power of these "eyes". The Bloody Coil can help but that's about it. The only thing that makes Trapper shine is Lockdown / Basement Trapper. That is pretty much uncounterable but 2 escapes are definitely possible against it. 3, if you're team is really good and doesn't make stupid mistakes.
Again shows me you don't know how to play Trapper.
You don't place your traps hoping that survivors won't see it. Instead, you place traps at vaults/pallets to deny the loop. Good survivors will spot the traps, yes, but it doesn't matter, because by the time they spot it, they have already committed to this loop, and they will now take a hit regardless of what their "eyes" can see. In old DBD, survivors could dead hard through traps. Now they can't.
The only counter to this strategy now, is for survivors to disarm your traps in advance. But that counterplay becomes extremely difficult with Iri stone, as not only they'll have to regularly disarm the same traps over and over, but the trap can become active while they are looping.
Otz plays without addon, so for him it's important to hide the traps and reduce the chance of survivors disarming it. But that's not something you care about with Iri Stone, in fact most of the time you'd rather prefer survivors disarm your traps so they're not on gens.
And I'll say it again, this whole strategy only has become possible after July 2022 when survivors could no longer DH through traps. You thinking that Bloody Coil is better than Iri Stone was correct prior to this patch, but it is completely wrong in 2023.
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@TigerSnake said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366669#Comment_3366669
DH still ######### over Trapper just as hard as any other killer even though you can’t dash through his traps anymore. And while his Iri’s help a lot, he’s still an M1 who has to pick up and set traps which aren’t even that good in the first place.
Trapper with Iri stone is not a M1 killer, he's a 3-gen camper, you're obviously playing him very wrong if you call him a M1 killer.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366653#Comment_3366653
was this with no mmr or the mmr system in place?
It was in July 2022, so with MMR, likely the same as we have now. (which basically takes into account player skill but still prioritizes queue times drastically over match balance)
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Trapper does not need a buff. He's already extremely obnoxious. People are just stuck with this myth that "Trapper is a weak M1 killer" because they blindly quote Otzdarva, but they don't realize that 1) Otz rates killers without add-ons, and 2) DH nerf was massive for Trapper.
Trapper is one of the most addon dependent killers. If you play him without addon he's weak as #########, but with his best add-ons he's an A-tier killer at least. So if they buff him they should nerf his strong add-ons first (iri stone especially), otherwise prepare for a rise in DCs.
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@calem said:
Probably win streaks. It takes a lot of skill and game knowledge to consistently escape/4k every game. As survivor doing escape streaks, you have to take into consideration your teammates and how they perform, their perks, YOUR perks, the different killers you'll be facing, trying not to be camped + tunnelled, the maps, the RNG tiles, etc. Same goes for killer. You have to win through all sorts of maps, layouts, survivors, their perks, SWF teams, items, etc.
Since we all know sometimes the game is just favoured to go either way sometimes, be it map RNG or just having a lucky perk build that perfectly suits the situation, etc. But I think the high escape/kill streaks prove that person is a skilful and knowledgeable player.
Win streaks prove nothing, just that the matchmaking is a joke.
I had a 36-game win streak on Nurse, the first time I played her. (proof) Every game was a 4k, not a single hatch. I was a baby Nurse but the survivors that the game gave me were even more babies, so I ramped up faster than my MMR did and kept winning for 2 consecutive weeks. I ultimately lost a game then decided to stop playing Nurse cos I got bored. To this day, my killrate on Nurse is still 98.7% (154 kills / 156 total)
Getting winstreaks in any modern game with matchmaking should be basically impossible, but in DBD as killer it is easy if you tryhard. In fact when I posted this winstreak here, many people came to the thread and shared much longer winstreaks than me, someone had a 90+. We're talking random forum users not competitive players/streamers.
Equip 4 gen perks, don't pick Bubba or Billy, and tunnel the weakest survivor. Here's your winstreak.
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"Dead Hard needs an actual downside/activation condition"
Ah yeah, a downside. You mean like, a 0.5 sec window, that is near impossible to hit half of the time due to latency? Would that do?
Or maybe we could make DH do literally nothing but cause exhaustion if you don't time it correctly?
Wait sorry that's not a downside, I forgot y'all forum warriors only face competitive SWF squads at top 0.1% MMR.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365351#Comment_3365351
The video shared by OP is tame compared to most games I play, and they're far from "unplayable".
But no, lets exclude huge swaths of the playerbase from playing the game. Lets just blacklist hundreds of thousands of players because they don't live next door to the servers. DBD is an exclusive service that only exists in a few cities. You need to move to London or Frankfurt to play DBD. Forget playing for Playstation Plus, you need to fork out for a visa and a new apartment.
I don't know how you play DBD, but the balance of the game is designed around loops, especially on a map like Gideon where you can't hold W, this tile showed in the clip is supposed to be a loopable tile, but just because the killer uses a VPN it suddenly becomes a completely unsafe, un-mindgame-able tile where you'll take a hit regardless of what you do.
You will 100% lose a game like this as survivor and learn absolutely nothing from it - you are right though, strictly speaking you can still play the game. But, using your same logic I don't see what's the problem with dodging high ping killers either. They too, can still play the game (they will just have longer queues).
You don't need to live next to a server to get <100ms ping, stop exagerating. I live in the countryside of France in a completely isolated town with 250 people, and my ping is ~25 ms. In fact, my ping to St Petersburg in RUSSIA, at the opposite of the continent, is 75 ms.
No one is saying it's your fault for having a high ping. But it's not the 4 other players' fault either.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365269#Comment_3365269
Killers with high ping would be dodged every game and wouldn't be able to play at all.
Yes better create unplayable lobbies and waste the time of the 4 other people who have a normal connection, right?
Have you even seen the video shared by OP? Can you say this will be a genuinely fun & fair game?
This game is incredibly latency-dependent, you shouldn't be able to play it at McDonalds.
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@Peanits The technical constraints are understood, but the least you could do to mitigate the problem would be to show the killer's ping in lobby to survivors (and please the actual number, not just the current icon). So people could decide if they want to play this match or not. Even having 100 ms is a clear advantage that guarantees the killer a free surprise hit on everyone in the lobby. Inexperienced most likely don't care, but I can tell you 90% of big survivor streamers would dodge 100+ ms ping killers...
High ping is banned in DBD tournaments and iirc even BHVR rules say it's bannable to use a VPN in order to get an unfair advantage so why can't we at least know if the killer is doing it other than taking a hit? The game would need to show current ping as well as the max ping over the last 5 seconds so we can also detect lag switchers.
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Your mistake was to play solo queue in the first place
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@Wiccamanplays said:
The maps that are killer-sided are a bit killer-sided but can still be manageable. The most survivor-sided maps verge on the unplayable for some killers in the roster. It’s telling that the standard reaction of killer players and content creators to so many maps is ‘oh god not ____’
Ah yeah, the killer content creators, who record 50-winstreaks on a monthly basis
These people who win 90% of their matches as killer, claim that the game is survivor-sided, so let's trust that as the only source of evidence, disregarding every stat that the devs themselves have published which directly contradicts it
If you believe maps like Dead Dawg or Midwich are "just a bit" killer-sided then you have simply never played survivor on these maps. Hens managed to hold a 3-gen for ONE HOUR against 4 survs on Dead Dawg (and won because the server shut down).
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362227#Comment_3362227
I personally agree that Nurse isn't as hard as some people claim. For me it took probably 10 games to get feeling for her power and after that I was mostly fine. Others have more trouble with that though.
Something being easy or difficult is always subjective. For some people Nurse is incredibly hard, for some she is easy. And seeing how there are quite a few people that can DH on reaction and will always get a 3rd health state against a killer, that uses their power this definitely applies to DH as well.
You can guess things about me all you want. I don't care. The fact that DH deserves to be gutted or completely reworked still remains.
I made another post not too long ago. I suggest you read through it. There are many more arguments about DH in that thread. No amount of "But DH is fine..." will change that it is an objectively problematic perk.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/365685/kill-dead-hard-already
"There are quite a few people that can DH on reaction"
Care to name any?
FYI, the Youtube videos of popular survivors that you might be tempted to quote, are clips cherry-picked from hundreds of games. If you would watch all their matches, you would see a very different story.
I watch 2-3 good survivor streamers on Twitch. I see every single of them fail DH on predictable hits, regularly. In fact, depending on ping, I'd say they most of the time fail it.
Reacting to DH on basic hit or even on a lunge is humanly impossible if the killer has 100+ ping.
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The best part of this topic is when you try to find "something difficult to use" to compare with Dead Hard, and your example is... NURSE? Have you even spent more than 1 hour on Nurse? She's not hard. Yes, her power is unique and not straightforward to use, but the counterplay for survivor is also unique and not straightforward to learn, so it balances out, I started playing Nurse 6 months ago, and even while learning her blinks, I was still able to dominate every game. She even has an add-on to help learn her power.
Having to practice something for a few hours does not mean it's hard. You as killer need to learn your power. Guess what, that's what survivors have to do, but they have to do it for each killer, so 30x more the effort.
Dead Hard, is WAY harder than you give it credit for. You need to know how to loop to get use out of it, which is already a ~400 hour requirement. Then, you need to time it, but considering it has a 100ms delay, with BHVR's buggy servers and survivors not being allowed to see killer's ping, I wouldn't be surprised if you needed another 400 hours to get consistent use out of it. Even survivor streamers can't get it to work half of the time against predictable lunges.
I can tell that you have never played with Dead Hard, and you have not played with Nurse more than a ferw hours, most likely, you have not even discovered 10% of the depth that is in the chase game, but because killer is so ridiculously easy now, you won a lot of underserved games and now you're getting matched against survivors way above your real skill level. Dead Hard is easy to bait out and almost every time if you lose to DH it means that you got outplayed. If you don't believe it, try to play as a survivor yourself with Dead Hard for a week, and you'll see. With all the tutorials nowadays even beginner killers know how to bait it out.
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Have you ever played with DH to check that it indeed doesn't require skill? Can you pleaase record a bit of your gameplay and share it so we can all learn from you? I'm still not able to hit DH consistently and from what I've seen most streamers fail it too, but it seems you're build with a superior anatomy (or more likely, you're only play killer)
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Contrary to killers, who have 10+ good regression perks, survivors don't have the luxury of choice, there are only 3-4 exhaustion perks that are good. So one would expect the pick rate of any exhaustion perk to be naturally high (around 25%) just because of lack of competition.
Maybe BHVR should increase competition to Dead Hard by introducing new OP perks and Dead Hard's pickrate will magically decrease. Is that what you want?
Comparing DH and Eruption is silly as one perk requires high skill to use while the other requires exactly zero.
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You can press the "Print Scr." key on your keyboard to take a screenshot, FYI
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What's the problem? Camping is a valid strategy. You should be in awe of this great tactican who owned you and your solo queue team by his strategic superiority.
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Literally every friend I have who played this game, played it for chases. The rest of the game is just very underwhelming. Everything ceases to be scary after 50 hours. There's barely any strategy for survivors apart from splitting and doing gens, barely any object to interact with.
Unfortunately a lot of survivors these days are lifeless bots who just want to press M1 in front of a generator and get rewarded with BPs, while killers on their end focus on kicking the same generators while trying to achieve the longest streak of 4Ks. And it also seems to match BHVR's vision of the game seeing they literally released an AI-based killer that does the chase for you.
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Weren't you doing a thread just 2 days ago saying that you dropped MMR and faced newbie survivors? Then, do you really expect newbies to come back from 3 basement hooks? Also weren't you the one saying that killers have to tunnel+camp every game to win now? Your narrative is very confusing...
Anyway, I know it sounds crazy, but another option would be to not try hard every match, without the game having to send the notification. Especially if you face newbies.
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3347925#Comment_3347925
All I ever play is solo Q, I'm a survivor main and I escape more than I die.
I'm just not gonna lie, I understand the games balance and the potential one side has over the other. Using bad players as your whole purpose isnt reasonable...
Games killer sided because people cant play or do gens is a stupid stance, people physically dont do their objective and wonder why they lose...
There are countless great survivor maps filled with loops and tiles that are safe and just waste the killers time. And if you're trying to change my mind dont talk about bad players losing... bad players should.
The fact is if matchmaking actually worked correctly every survivor would win far more but as it stands you will have a mixed bag of teammates.
Like the example I always go back to, if versed the same killer player with the same killer, perks, map, addons but had 2 different teams. 1 we wont easily and he got barely any hooks, the other team lost at 4gens. The difference was the team because of matchmaking.
The thing you're missing is with your "bad players deserve to lose" argument, is that there are bad players on BOTH sides of the game. So taking your own argument, bad survivors should lose; but bad killers should also lose, evening out, and the killrates should be around 50%.
The fact killrates are higher than 50%, means that we are not in an even situation. It means that if a bad survivor gets matched against a bad killer, then the killer wins, which by definition means the game is killer-sided.
Telling survivors that they lose because they're bad at the game is an absurd stance that contradicts itself. Because they could just click the "Play Killer" button and they would still be just as bad, but now they would win.
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You can't take random stats like that then add them and say "Math doesn't lie". The projectiles of these killers have completely different collision, trajectory, size, speed, reload, addons which you have all ignored.
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I wish the devs gave more details on MMR, especially commented on this issue. If MMR was working, everyone should get about 50% winrate. And yet, the average killrate is 60%. How is this possible? And that's assuming the official killrates are accurate to begin with, but I know very few people who escape more than 40% of their matches, mine is probably around 33% and that's because I'm feeling lucky, but in the past I remember it was common for me to play for several days without winning once.
Something I realized is that these loss streaks only happen on specific days/times for me, so the solution is just to stop playing when I feel like I got 2-3 unfun matches in a row. Then the next day I'm suddenly getting baby killers again. Very weird.
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When done for farming shards/xp, it should be punished very harshly, especially when it's the killer who does it, they waste the time and electricity of 4 other persons, just so they can get a negligible amount of shard. They might also skew killrates/MMR at low level since they represent a huge fraction of games there.
BHVR is fighting hard on cheaters but it's hard to believe them when they can't even detect people who use a basic AHK bot that clicks "Ready" repeatedly. There are people with 336 hours played / last 2 weeks and their profile full of "AFK bot" comment, I don't know how they aren't getting banned after literal YEARS.
I have met a cheater once in the last 3 months. Meanwhile the farming bots I get every 1-2 weeks (note: this also shows me that MMR doesn't work..), and I regularly see streamers get them.