Saiph
Saiph
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- Saiph
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I watched Puffalope's stream yesterday and he died 7 games in a row (link)
He started the stream then only died for 1 hour 30 min straight.
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Had this happen to me a few hours ago. Now I'm eating the penalty too, thanks BHVR I guess:
https://youtu.be/ZgXHvE-LLMsOh and btw, prior to this game I had three consecutive dedicated server crashes in a row - with 10 minutes queue in between each time. Had I started recording earlier I could have streamed 1 straight hour of content without a single game.
So here is my 2047th opportunity of reminding BHVR that THIS DC PENALTY SYSTEM IS THE STUPIDEST OF THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY AND ONLY ANNOYS LEGIT PLAYERS TRYING TO PLAY THE GAME. YOU HAVE BIG STREAMERS SITTING AT 15 MIN RIGHT NOW WHO NEVER DC WHILE RAGEBABIES CAN STILL SUICIDE ON HOOK FOR FREE EVERY SINGLE GAME. Hmm sorry I mean yes please do something about it thanks
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913124#Comment_3913124
So since some perks are multi-function, or they have different impacts based on certain things. What i'll do is go off a point system.
So if discord, or coms in general gives full access to the perk, that will be 1 point, if it only gives partial, i'll give it a fraction of a point based on that. So, for example something like kindred, would give a full point, because the survivor on the hook, can tell the team where the killer is, and knowing where your team at is something you could do. Whereas say, something like say, Blood pact, you get half the effect, in terms of aura reading, but you wouldn't get the haste from coms. So i'd say that's half a point.
I'll also explain my reasoning for each perk, then also at the end, we'll list some things that coms and coordination gives you that you can't get from perks.
So here we go.
- Aftercare
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading only
- Alert
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer while generally chasing another survivor, and tells you which pallets are being broken. Something your teammate could call out
- Any means necessary
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on dropped pallets, something you can call out to your team when you drop it and run away and the killer doesn't break it.
- Better together
- 1 Point
- Gives aura reading of which gen you are working on to your team, and gives you aura reading on your teammates
- Blast mine
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the blast mined gen, giving your location out to your team. But obviously not the effect of the mine itself
- Blood pact
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on your teammates but not the haste
- Bond
- 1 Point
- Gives aura reading on your team
- Boon: Circle of Healing
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on your teammates and gives general location of your current teammate when the boon is lit, but coms don't give the healing effect
- Breakdown
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer, but not the effect of the hook
- Buckle up
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer
- Chemical trap
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the pallet its on, giving you a rough location of your teammates and where someone is getting chased
- Clairvoyance
- 0.5 points
- While not at the start of the match, with coms you can find all this information out generally in the first 20-30 seconds of the match from all your teammates
- Corrective Action
- 0.5 points
- Aura reading on your teammates, but not the other part of the effect
- Counterforce
- 0.25 points
- Aura reading on totems, again not at the start of the match, but during the match you can call out totem spots pretty easily as you find them
- Dark sense
- 1 point
- Aura reading on the killer
- Deja vu
- 0.5 points
- Gives you locations of generators, easy to call out to the team, but not the repair speed bonus
- Detective's hunch
- 0.5 points
- Similar to above, not at the start of the match, but very quickly you can call these things out to your teammates
- Empathic connection
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on your teammates
- Empathy
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on your teammates
- Eyes of belmont
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out, and i'd argue extending the duration of auras isn't useful in this context because you basically have "aura" of everything anyway.
- Fogwise
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out
- Hardened
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out, but does still suppress screams
- Inner focus
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out and scratch marks on teammates which is about finding your friends which is easy on coms
- Invocation: Treacherous Crows
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on killer and to your team
- Invocation: Weaving Spiders
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading to your team of where you are
- Kindred
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading of killer and teammates
- Lucky Star
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on teammates and generators nearby, but still does other stuff as well
- No one left behind
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading of other survivors
- Object of Obsession
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading of the killer, also i'd argue coms make OOO a significantly better perk because you can call out killer location to your team
- Open handed
- 1 point
- All about buffing aura reading
- Poised
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out
- Premonition
- 1 point
- Gives killer location which is easy to call out
- Quick gambit
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading of teammates but still gives a faster gen speed
- Rookie spirit
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura of regressing gens which is easy to call out to your team, but its not all the time so only half a point here
- Scene Partner
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out
- Small game
- 0.5 points
- Similar to detective's hunch
- Spine chill
- 0.5 points
- Gives location of killer, but doesn't give action speed bonus
- Still sight
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer and other stuff that is easy to call out
- Strength in shadows
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on killer that is easy to call out
- Troubleshooter
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer and of gens with progress which is super easy to call out
- Visionary
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on gens which is easy to call out
- Wake up
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on gates which is easy to call out as well as aura on teammates
- Wicked
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on killer which is easy to call out
- Windows of opportunity
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on where pallets are up which is easy to call out
- Wire tap
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on killer which is easy to call out.
So, if we add up all the whole pointers you get 19 points and if you add up all the fraction pointers you get 12.25. Which together is 31.25. There are 4 survivors, so i guess today its actually 125, so its doubled since the last time i did it.
Even if you want to exclude the fraction pointers, its still going to be 76 perks for free.
That's not to mention all of the coordination you can get that aren't in perk form, like coordinating who is going for pinhead's box, or coordinating a pallet or flashlight save right as the killer picks up a teammate, or calling in for a body block or various other things as well.
Nah you went way too conservative with this.
Because SWFs also have perfect gen efficiency and in fact they can hardly ever be downed when they start taking hits for each other. They get the rescue at the right time to counter everything the killer can do, tunneling, camping, 3-genning, chasing, shnoozling and flabbergasting. We have to consider all the arguments.
Adjusted free SWF perk list:
- Adrenaline, Aftercare, Alert, Any Means Necessary, Appraisal, Autodidact, Ace in the Hole, Background Player, Balanced Landing, Better Than New, Blood Pact, Bond, Boil Over, Boon: Circle of Healing, Boon: Dark Theory, Boon: Exponential, Boon: Illumination, Boon: Shadow Step, Borrowed Time, Botany Knowledge, Breakdown, Breakout, Buckle Up, Built to Last, Calm Spirit, Chemical Trap, Clairvoyance, Corrective Action, Counterforce, Cut Loose, Dance With Me, Dark Sense, Dead Hard, Deception, Decisive Strike, Dedication, Deliverance, Desperate Measures, Detectives Hunch, Distortion, Diversion, Empathy, Fast Track, Fixated, Flashbang, Flip-Flop, Fogwise, For the People, Guardian, Head On, Hope, Hyperfocus, Inner Focus, Inner Healing, Iron Will, Kindred, Leader, Left Behind, Light-Footed, Lithe, Lucky Break, Made for This, Mettle of Man, No Mither, No One Left Behind, Object of Obsession, Off the Record, Open-Handed, Overcome, Overzealous, Parental Guidance, Pharmacy, Plot Twist, Poised, Power Struggle, Premonition, Prove Thyself, Quick & Quiet, Quick Gambit, Reactive Healing, Red Herring, Renewal, Repressed Alliance, Resilience, Resurgence, Rookie Spirit, Saboteur, Scene Partner, Self-Aware, Self-Care, Self-Preservation, Situational Awareness, Slippery Meat, Smash Hit, Sole Survivor, Solidarity, Soul Guard, Spine Chill, Sprint Burst, Stake Out, Streetwise, Styptic Agent, Teamwork: Power of Two, Technician, Tenacity, This Is Not Happening, Troubleshooter, Unbreakable, Up the Ante, Urban Evasion, Vigil, Visionary, Wake Up!, We'll Make It, We're Gonna Live Forever, Windows of Opportunity, Wiretap
- Aftercare
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Can this be fixed? I had this bug twice today, both on the game, so maybe it's exclusive to this map. Regardless, very frustrating when it happens.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903847#Comment_3903847
Id encourage you to look at what the dev who fairly recently left BHVR said ahout tunneling and asym games
Yup so probably worth sharing with other people:
Almo, ex-dev of DBD said that part of the reason why other asym games failed is because there was no tunneling. In other words, they even consider tunneling to be a POSITIVE thing for DBD, not a problem.
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Blame the devs, not the players. The devs balance the whole game around tunneling despite the whole community telling them not to.
I used to hate tunnelers as survivor but to give you an analogy, now that I've played both sides, not tunneling as killer is like opening 1-2 chests between every gen as survivor. Probably as a new player you thought opening chests is what you're supposed to do, you get BPs, and you can still win the match, but once you become good at the game you just realize how much you were shooting yourself in the foot.
Not tunneling as killer, is the exact same - shooting yourself in the foot - by trying to play the game how it's supposedly intended, except you don't even get any BP for doing it. In fact, BHVR removed the +100% BP bonus that BBQ & Chilli used to give for hooking everyone, AND then proceeded to nerf DS. At this point, don't blame killer players for adapting to terrible design.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894356#Comment_3894356
Ties dont work in dbd. Theres no survivor team that loses when it's more than 2 kills. Its 4 survivors that each escape or not. On a 3k, the escaped survivor wins despite all others losing, for example.
A 2k is a loss for the killer and 2 survivors, while 2 others win. Its just as dishonest to count these escapes as "draw".
Luckily, we don't have to count anything as a "draw".
We can just use killrate, which is the official metric the devs use, is very well defined, and doesn't have any problem with draws.
Sadly, "killrate" is not easy to manipulate, and reaches an embarrassing 60% - unexplainable for these people who told us 24/7 that the game is very survivor-sided. That's why they insist so much on bringing an abstract "winrate" into the discussion.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894083#Comment_3894083
For some reason i thought the numbers looked different. Either way, the point still stands, care to respond to everything else in that post that mattered instead of strawmanning? My argument doesn't hinge on that data being official or not, it was mostly an off comment.
You've got it backwards. The topic is not about MMR or Nurse, it's you who brought these topics in. You brought these topics in, because you know that your initial claim of "50% winrate" is dishonest, and now you'd rather talk about MMR or other vague stuff.
But allow me to insist.
Simple question: do you think a 50% - 37% winrate is balanced yes or no?
And do you think it was honest to present this information as "Killers have a winrate of 50%", omitting the 37% of survivors?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893735#Comment_3893735
I don't know where you got these stats from because they certainly don't look official, but the OFFICIAL stats from BHVR usually show nurse being the lowest kill rate or one of the lowest in the game. When looking at high MMR she's usually in the bottom half to middle of the pack:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WQI8EAGOPUTB/image.png
These are the "top MMR" for example from BHVR.
Now, as a nurse main with 4k+ hours, i agree, she is by far the best killer in the game, its pretty obvious and no contest really.
So my point i'm making here, is i think that what is ACTUALLY high MMR and what BHVR SAYS is high MMR are very different things. I suspect that when BHVR releases stats and they talk about "High MMR" they are talking about the highest MMR "bracket" in terms of matchmaking.
Are you aware of how MMR works and how matchmaking in general works? I suspect not, but that's ok. Through some people looking into this matter we have a pretty good idea of how MMR works.
MMR is broken up into 4 "brackets" you have the low bracket, the lower mid bracket, the upper mid bracket and the top bracket. I don't know off hand the level of MMR in each bracket below the top, but i do know one thing. The top bracket is 1400+ MMR.
Now, MMR systems typically use Glicko which is just a derivation of Elo. I play chess, a lot. And my current blitz rating in chess is 1428 as of writing this. This is my rating after playing around 10,000 games, so its probably pretty decently representative of my current skill level. In an average elo distrubution, this puts me around the top 15% of players. Pretty good right? Well, not really. You see, here is a graph of the distribution of those ratings:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/T83CVPI0Z0OV/image.png
Now again, looks pretty good right? Well, the problem here is that anyone in the 1400+ MMR bracket in DBD, can be matched together. So now imagine me playing a game with say Magnus Carlsen, best chess player in the world. If i played him 100 times, he would probably win 100 times. After a few thousand games, maybe i get lucky once and he was drunk and i land a draw.
The point i'm ultimately making here. Is you should not look at the stats BHVR releases as "high mmr" and take that as what people actually think "high MMR" is. When people say "at the highest levels of play" i'm talking chess grandmaster level of play. The top of the top players in the world. I'm talking about the titled level chess players, of which there are around 20,000, in a total pool of around 8 MILLION rated players. The TOP MMR.
So again, i reiterate my point.
- At the lowest skill levels, DBD is massively killer sided
- At the below average skill levels, DBD is slightly killer sided
- At average skill levels, DBD is evenly balanced
- At the above average skill levels, DBD is slightly survivor sided.
- At the highest skill levels, DBD is massively survivor sided.
When i talk about these things i'm talking about people who are world class, like thousands upon thousands, tens of thousands even, of hours playing the game.
Go take a look at comp level play, and look at the rulesets they have in place. If the killer is not player nurse, they generally have very few restrictions on killers (outside of obvious stuff like myers mori addon). And if you are playing pretty much every other killer, they have MASSIVE restrictions of what survivors can bring, what map is played and so on. And they do this for a reason. Almost every ruleset is in place to make the game more favorable for the killer, by putting them on their best map, and heavily restricting survivors. And they do this for a reason.
"Unofficial" stats? The table comes from the same page you quoted.
It is LITERALLY BELOW your graph…
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893687#Comment_3893687
Let me ask you a question.
Which killer is the best in the game?
At high MMR: almost certainly Blight & Nurse. At average MMR, probably Onryo.
I have a draft about this topic, never published it.
And yes I know you were going to say "Nurse is the worst killer statistically" because of her 53% and yes she is the worst killer FOR THE AVERAGE PLAYER, which aligns well with the fact she's harder to play than other killers especially for console players. At high MMR, she has a statistically outstanding pickrate combined with higher than average winrate.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893496#Comment_3893496
Again, you are looking at things in a vacuum. At highest levels of play, this game is blatently survivor sided, and at lower levels its killer sided. There are far more bad players than good ones. Which is what skews it heavily.
But again, if you don't like the 60% kill rate, thats something to take up with the devs. That is their desire to balance for a 60% kill rate. If you don't like it, complain to them, not to me.
At highest levels of play, this game is blatently survivor sided
- If the game was blatantly survivor-sided at high level then there wouldn't be people who achieve a 2000 winstreak on Blight, 1000 on Nurse, 800 on twins, 600 on Onryo, while the longest survivor streak is only around 300.
- If the game was blatantly survivor-sided at high level then Otzdarva's No Limits tournament would have ended up with killers getting destroyed. Yet killers still won 60% (link).
- If the game was blatantly survivor-sided at high level, then BHVR also wouldn't share this:
You're also assuming that I'm against the 60% killrate philosophy, but I'm not even saying that, I just say we need to be honest about the facts. Personally I think killrate is a rather low-priority thing to focus on and there are much more important issues in this game than balance, like the unfun gameplay mechanics, hook suicides, and technical issues.
- If the game was blatantly survivor-sided at high level then there wouldn't be people who achieve a 2000 winstreak on Blight, 1000 on Nurse, 800 on twins, 600 on Onryo, while the longest survivor streak is only around 300.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893496#Comment_3893496
Minor correction, the hatch does count as an escape as far as kill metrics.
The only time hatch is treated differently is that hatch is considered a draw for calculating MMR. But hatch is never considered a win for the killer.
Everything else though is completely true. I've never seen a PVP game push so hard for "balance" where one team wins nearly twice as much as their opponents. I get that it's asymmetrical, but since they're going for more "competitive balance" not "casual fun", having 50+% wins vs 35% wins and 15% draws is an insane spread.
I'm not sure what you mean here but here's an example to make sure we're talking about the same thing: say a killer gets 3K and the last survivor always escapes with hatch, they would have 75% killrate, and 100% winrate. So the hatch is actually lowering the killrates in that sense. If the devs were to use "winrate" as a metric in reality it would be even higher than 60%.
(Note this is assuming the community definition win = 3K/4K draw=2K loss=1K/0K which I don't think is a very good balancing metric but it's not me who keep bringing "winrate" into these threads)
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/439880/killer-vs-killler-role
The game is not blanketly "killer sided"
The devs balance the game around a 60% kill rate, which, when factoring in hatch, amounts to around a 50% win rate for killers.
The other thing to keep in mind is that balance is at a scale. Most people would agree that at the lowest levels of play, like when you first start playing, the game is massively killer sided. I remember when i first started playing with my friends, we were lucky if we ever got a single generator done in our matches before we were all killed, and this was back in the days when real infinites existed so it should have been easy for us.
Once you move on to the "average skill level" the game starts to even out and become a bit more evenly balanced.
Then once you move onto the highest levels of skill the game shifts back over to survivor sided. There is a reason that comp for example has to heavily restrict survivors and do a ton of scoring systems and such to make the game more fair for killers for example.
Then you have SWF which also complicates it a bit, again at lower levels it probably doesn't make much of a difference, but as you climb the ranks of skill, discord suddenly becomes a massive advantage that you have over your solo queue counterparts.
The devs balance the game around a 60% kill rate, which, when factoring in hatch, amounts to around a 50% win rate for killers.
Wrong and Wrong.
Killers win 50%, but survivors win only 37%, so this is imbalanced (the rest is draws). Presenting this as "50% winrate for killer" without presenting 35% for survivors is pure manipulation and you know it because I've already quoted you several times.
Second, hatch escapes increase the winrate, not the other way around. Because a hatch is a win for killer, even though it's 0 kill.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893401#Comment_3893401
I'm not saying meg is a bad person. I'm saying the very penalty itself IS BHVR stepping in so Meg can't do this. If they were just taking away BPs or something it would be different, but making the penalty a timeout function so an overly stressed player can cool off is the right move. The LAST thing that should happen is meg jumping right into another match.
Not only does the penalty NOT prevent Meg from doing this, but it does in fact prevent everyone from leaving BUT Meg. Look at the video you shared. The penalty did more harm than good even in the example you shared.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893344#Comment_3893344
Unfortunately you do infact have ppl denying that ppl like the meg should be penalized. You don't have to go any further than this very thread.
The post you are thinking of does not say that Meg should or shouldn't be penalized, they are saying that penalties shouldn't be the focus of the discussion, because it's just a symptom of a more fundamental issue, and I agree. You are focusing way too hard on moral aspects that don't matter for a video game.
It doesn't matter who this Meg is, whether she's a bad person or not, or whether she just had a bad day. We've been trying this route for 4 years, only raising penalties, result: it doesn't work. Imo, this Meg shouldn't play DBD, but it's her problem - it's BHVR who's at fault for letting her ruin the game for other survivors. It is not bad to have altruism in a game, but the way it's implemented in DBD is horrible. You can't force 4 strangers who just met to all be altruistic with each other and call that "teamwork", it just goes against basic human instincts. You can't give one single survivor the power to entirely doom a match within 1 minute, without any opportunity for the 3 other survivors to counteract it. That's why I advocate for the game rebalancing the power discrepancy between 4v1 and 3v1.
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Fully agree that the deep hand treatment should not be given preferentially to killers or survivors. Both sides already give it to each other, regularly.
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No one denies that this type of people exists, and that they should be penalized. The problem is that we need a PRACTICAL solution, and so far, everything that BHVR has implemented has the same problem: it sounds very nice in theory, but always ends up terribly counterproductive in practice.
Let's examine your video. There is ALREADY a DC penalty, supposedly to prevent the exact scenario you shared. But what do we see?
- The crybaby finds a way to circumvent the penalty, and still manages to leave easily.
- Instead, the penalty now prevents the 3 other survivors to leave, who can't DC out of an unwinnable match.
So the debate is not whether this person is a crybaby or not. The debate is, what is the point of keeping or even increasing DC penalties, when the current system only punishes everybody but the crybaby. i.e., people who have to DC for legit reasons and have the decency to give their teammates a bot instead of staying AFK. Your video perfectly illustrates that. If the crybaby could DC, then at least the other survivors would get a bot. So, the "DC penalty" that is supposed to prevent DCs, ends up making them worse.
Now you might think the solution is to just get rid of the exploit (hook suicide) and improve the detection system so that the situation above does not happen anymore. If we were in an utopic world where everything can be perfectly implemented then I would agree with that approach. The problem is we're in the BHVR world, where somehow they always manage to get things implemented in such a naive way, people find a way to abuse it again before it's even live, AND they always end up making the problem worse somehow. It's been like this for the ~4 years that I've played this game, and at this point, I almost hope they don't touch anything anymore.
Imo the practical solution for the go-next problem would be a completely different approach. Since we can't fight go-next, the game should be rebalanced so that an early 1v3 is not game-ending for survivors. Let the baby go next or ban them, I don't care. But at least don't penalize the other 3 survivors for it.
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@Mooks said:
I guess you missed a class effect: the healer class womit leave scratch marks once they have been caged!
Ohhh ok that makes sense then.
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Skill issue
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It's definitely more fun than 1v4 for me, on both sides. However, I don't like the "lazy" trend it's taking.
II will not blame BHVR too much for the ongoing disaster with bots and Legion, because at least they're trying something, however I'm disappointed that there was barely anything improved over the previous iteration. The 3rd iteration is just 2nd + a few more killers.
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@Nazzzak said:
We were told the other day that this forum is an isolated echo chamber and everyone else is totally fine with the bots. So why would they change things based on the small minority here?
What is YOUR solution to fix queue times? Easy to criticize, when every option is bad.
They are just TRYING bots, there's no reason to be so dramatic. The mode has been out for ONE DAY, so in worst case they'll disable bots after a few days and that's all, nobody was hurt, at least now we KNOW bots don't work, instead of having to speculate.
And yes despite what you think the forum IS likely the minority because BHVR conducted a poll about this, so it's fair to assume people voted yes, and there's no problem with that. It is fine to TRY stuff, especially after they conducted a survey.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3883006#Comment_3883006
But then he is never a threat of downing you, and you're up against 1 killer as usual, except for the mend slowdown. Otherwise, he gives up his frenzy for a bit to chase as M1 trash. Don't you see how the killer side is compromised as well?
I do see the other side. I played both sides tonight. Won all the killer games. Lost all the surv games. You on the other hand, probably have played only killer side, as usual…
If you can't win 2v8 as killer right now, then this is a massive skill issue. Consider sharing your gameplay one day, because I genuinely don't understand. Between lack of MMR, ridiculously OP killer synergies, 2 bots by default, and survivors never doing gens because they're all hiding for hatch, the mode is easier it's ever been.
I'm betting the killrate is something like 75%.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882846#Comment_3882846
IDK what survivors want at this point because:
- Anti-loop killers are boring
- Macro gameplay killers are boring
- Hit and run killers are boring.
Here's a question, what killers ARE fun to go against then? Because based on complaints as far as i can see, there is pretty much no killer that is "fun"
Have you actually tried 2v8 as survivor AGAINST Legion?
Because from the few games I've played today, it seemed indeed that he is uncounterable. I have only played like 4-5 games but I've faced him every single game… and I died every single game. I would normally consider exaggerated to call Legion a "mending simulator" in 1v4. But in 2v8 it's actually what happens. Legion basically never tries to chase you, only injures you with his power, then runs away, then comes back when you're healed, then repeat.
So either you spend the whole game trying to heal, or you decide to stay injured. BUT and this is really the major problem in 2v8 is that the typical counterplay of "not healing against Legion" does not work anymore, because there's now a 2nd killer. Normally, Legion is weak against injured survivors. But the 2nd killer isn't. Typically it will be a fast/stealthy killer like Blight, Wesker or Wraith.
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I'm fine with bots, it's a necessary evil. Queue times were the main problem, and there aren't really other options.
Just like previous iterations, the forum is frankly being overdramatic, I doubt it's representative of the actual playerbase for anything 2v8-related. The last survey specifically asked if players were okay with bots to alleviate queue times. So, if BHVR actually ends up implementing it, it's likely that most people voted yes.
I trust the 2v8 dev team personally since the previous iterations were really huge Ws. Bots might backfire and not help with queue times but there's no other way to know than to try. If survivor ends up too weak, that can easily be addressed later.
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The goal of MMR is to create balanced matches, not to "reward" players. You're effectively suggesting that someone who slugs and 4k's every game should be put against beginners.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
Do you have some video of your killer gameplay that you could share? I'm naturally skeptical when people on this forum claim that they "win all the time" as killer. People come on this forum and claim this all the time, yet not one of them has ever backed it up with video of their gameplay. I'm not trying to flame you - hope you can understand why I'm skeptical. If you're really winning all the time, even after getting into the high MMR range, then you would be among one of the best players in the world.
Well, here you go.
These are my games of the evening. I won 6 out of 6 (100%):
https://youtu.be/Fi8Dv4hYwjE?si=1EjXosJ8YHUYh7fpDisclaimer for forum killer mains™: I'm not an exceptional killer player. When you watch the recordings you might see a lot of mistakes, and I can spot some myself. Yet notice how despite these mistakes I still manage to win way more than 60%, and it seems like you can't, and I'm not the one pretending to be high MMR. My survivors will definitely not look high-MMR to some of you, but they did send me to a map 4 out of 6 times, so maybe a bit of self-reflection... Surely if a noob like me can win, you can too right? Even better, since survivor is OP why not record 6 wins in a row on survivor and share it as well?
(The disclaimer isn't addressed to you @I_Cant_Loop as I know you're actually sincere, that said, I still heavily disagree with your message)
A surrender button would be universally abused. People would quit for just about any reason, as we've seen in the past during periods when the DC penalties were suspended. The game would become unplayable for anyone not in a 4-man SWF group. I know you can't force people to try in a game, but at least make it inconvenient and time-consuming to leave a match.
PEOPLE. ALREADY. SUICIDE. ALL THE TIME.
My video even shows it, I've had people give up twice at 5 gens TWO games out of SIX.
Then everybody wastes their time for 10 minutes EXACTLY as OP describes, INCLUDING THE KILLER.
Watch at 28:29 then at 48:14 .
3vs1 at 4 gens with a bot. At this point of the match, survivors have 0 chance to win. If a surrender button was available, who would abuse it, when even ME, the killer, want to leave? I genuinely don't understand the point of playing these out. Do you enjoy playing the 3vs1 at 5 gens as the killer? Do you find it fair to punish the remaining survivors for what their random teammate did?
People are ALREADY abusing the system and the ONLY players for whom it is "inconvenient and time-consuming to leave" are the ones who are PLAYING FAIR, and ESPECIALLY THE KILLER.
These games aren't cherry-picked, you can check I literally recorded this hours ago, and this happens to me almost every day. When it's not the survivors who give up it's the ######### servers which randomly start an unplayable match with 300+ ping for everyone. And yeah I know I use a lot of caps but we're talking HOURS of my life being wasted every month by the EXACT SAME ISSUE OP DESCRIBED, and understand my frustration when not only do me, every streamer that I know of, and MILLIONS of soloQ players have to endure hours of our life getting wasted, we then also have to endure killer mains who live on a different planet and somehow defend this abomination of gameplay on the forums.
Do you have some video of your killer gameplay that you could share? I'm naturally skeptical when people on this forum claim that they "win all the time" as killer. People come on this forum and claim this all the time, yet not one of them has ever backed it up with video of their gameplay. I'm not trying to flame you - hope you can understand why I'm skeptical.
Well that's not really true. I previously shared killer gameplay here, and others like Pulsar did as well.
The problem is that it's useless, because at this point 90% of killer defenders here ignore everything factual. They ignore BHVR stats, Nightlight stats, as well as the hundreds of players who managed to do ridiculous streaks on the killer side but not on the survivor side, it's not a few more videos that will change their mind.
You can find this old topic of mine: FACECAMPING EXPERIMENT - 36 game win streak (old account).
I recommend you read it. The tone was provocative, but the gameplay was there, 36 wins in a row. Now picture yourself that recording hours of winstreaks to make a forum argument took me quite some time and was also quite stressful. But finally I had it, 36 wins in a row, just by facecamping, as a complete beginner. Wasn't that overwhelming proof that camping is too strong? Well apparently it was not, according to forum killer mains who came with a variety of excuses: either my survivors were too low MMR, or the number of games was still too low of a sample size, or I was playing a too strong killer (Nurse, even though I couldn't aim #########) or I was smurfing. First I had recorded only 10 games and thought it was low, so I continued up to 18. Then I continued up to 36.
That's literal weeks of recordings and hours of upload. Did I convince anybody with it? Nope, doubt 95% of those who replied even watched more than a few seconds. People here continued to defend facecamping for an entire year until BHVR finally fixed it.
The irony is that to this day I still win easily by camping & tunneling EXACTLY as as I explained in this topic (you can't facecamp anymore but you can still proxy camp which is just as effective, if not more). When I read this topic 2 years later, it baffles me, that with only 10 hours of killer I somehow had already figured out critical balance issues, that BHVR still has not.
If you're really winning all the time, even after getting into the high MMR range, then you would be among one of the best players in the world.
Fair point, I don't think I'm one of the best players in the world, but my guess is that MMR in DBD fundamentally doesn't work like in other games. I don't know how it's even mathematically possible for "high MMR" to be a thing when the winrate targeted by the very own balance team is 60%, while MMR is designed to achieve 50%. My guess is that there are a lot of high-MMR players on the killer side and very few on the survivor side, in that case what you say is correct, but it's not "the best players in the world" who can achieve very high winrate, probably more like top 10% of the killer population and top 1% of the survivor population.
I don't think I'm a high MMR killer. I watched a lot of DBD videos on Youtube but my profile says less than ~500 hours on killer (about 1000 on surv). But the FACT is, I win way more than 60% and most games are not even close. sure I don't win ALWAYS, but I'd say typically 60-80% depending on the killer, with some days at 100% and 10- winstreaks happening randomly. Btw I only shared 6 games but I'll continue recording & uploading every game from now on to the YT channel above, so there will be more games over time and you can eventually check that the footage is uninterrupted.
Otzdarva also shared hours and hours of killer streaks with all kind of silly challenges, including some where he was playing perkless Trapper and spent 1 minute being AFK. Now I know you and I are not Otzdarva, but if he can win 50 games in a row on Trapper, it means even for rookies like you and I it shouldn't be too hard to reach at least 60% winrate. In contrast, notice how Otz never shared any sort of soloQ streak…
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DBD has MILLIONS of active players, about 6 - 7 000 000 according to activeplayer.io, and I don't think this even includes consoles.
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Yeah finally! Blight was almost unplayable sometimes I would get my 4k at 4 gens instead of 5 just due to this bug
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@H2H said:
The devs' current targeted kill rate is 60%. HOWEVER, this does not automatically mean killers have a 60% win rate!
Imagine a killer plays 10 games. A 60% kill rate means 24 survivors die, and 16 escape. A win for the killer is a 3k or 4k.
Here's one set of games: 4k, 4k, 2k, 2k, 2k, 2k, 2k, 2k, 2k, 2k
The killer has a 60% kill rate, but only a 20% win rate (with an 80% draw rate).
Here's another set of games: 3k, 3k, 3k, 3k, 3k, 3k, 3k, 3k, 0k, 0k
The killer has a 60% kill rate, with an 80% win rate (and a 20% loss rate).
My point here is not to argue the appropriateness of a 60% kill rate or if this is a good balancing decision. It is merely to point out that a 60% kill rate can mean wildly different win rates in different conditions.
Kill rate is not win rate, please stop conflating them, thank you.The winrate formula is NOT
(wins / games). This formula is valid ONLY for games without draw.In games where draws are a possible result, the winrate formula becomes:
(wins + 0.5 × draws) / gamesIf we apply the correct formula to Nightlight's data, we get a 56.7% winrate, for a 56.6% killrate.
i.e. ALMOST NO DIFFERENCE.
This whole "killrate is not winrate" argument is a forum nonsense to try to artificially fit killer narratives. When you do your math correctly, winrate actually shows the game to be even more killer-sided than killrate, because hatch escapes lower the killrates.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863851#Comment_3863851
If there was some mass server problem that was causing people to disconnect, BHVR would turn off the penalty as they have done in the past. If you are experiencing connection issues, it's likely something on your end.
There is literally a mass server problem right now. Have you tried playing? During evenings half the matches have 300+ ms, then crash + "dedicated server is not responding".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVeYPeSpuh8 -
Don't worry the team is already aware of the issue and a fix is planned for 2037
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The DC system in DBD is one of the most terrible I've seen.
Imo it's a perfect example of theory that doesn't hold in practice. It's crazy how many obvious flaws this system that have still not been patched after years. And some people still naively defend it thinking it disincentivizes giving up early, when giving up on hook has never been as high…
The thing is, griefers who really want to DC easily circumvent the penalty system. They can give up on hook or going AFK, both heavily penalize the team as they won't even get a bot.
In contrast, someone who has actual connection problems will take the full penalty, even though they'll leave much later in the match, and give a bot, hence being a lot less detrimental. Contrarily to one might believe, the penalty system is quite severe, even though the first penalty is only a minute, it only fades out after 24h which means in reality you can DC at most once per 24h, which is really not lenient if you play a lot, you will eventully get the 15 min from time to time. Meanwhile again, griefers can give up on hook with no penalty, then DC at the end of the day, they can do that every day and if they play only 1-2 hours per day, they'll never hit the penalty.
Another "hilarious" consequence of this system was when big streamers like Otzdarva got held hostage for entire hours by hackers, yet they couldn't leave the game or they would get an even longer DC penalty. Once again, this penalty never works in practice. It seems to only punish normal players.
I used to complain a lot about this system but just like so many things in this game I simply gave up on logic and decided to not care. I have stable connection so whatever, I'm not affected.
Or at least I thought I was not affected, until now. Because apparently we can't have functioning servers for Christmas, so now half the games start with 300 ms ping for everyone, and I can't even DC out of these matches as the killer. So I waste 10 minutes in a match where everyone only point to hooks, begging for me to kill them because they don't want to play either, yet nobody can leave the match.
tl;dr: REMOVE THIS STUPID PENALTY AT LEAST UNTIL THE SERVER ARE FIXED PLS.
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1vs1 rules make these perks look much better than they actually are in 4vs1, because the survivors start healthy and the match immediatly ends after the 1st chase.
But in a real game, the person chased will realistically stay injured for a while after the unhook, and then they cannot use either perk, which makes them worse than a regular exhaustion imo. If the killer tunnels you, you might not even be able to use them more than once in the entire game. If you play against Legion or Plague, you might not even use them at all.
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There are 40 killers in the game. You can hardly learn how to play against so many different killers, especially when the game doesn't have a practice mode.
Some killers have powers that don't even fit the description box anymore. Some, like Dracula, have 3 powers at once.
Imo attempting to learn survivor in 2024 is like trying to learn 40 languages at the same time
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861935#Comment_3861935
I understand what your viewpoint is, but I don’t think it is correct.
Blast Mine is not fun for the killer. The fact that stronger perks exist, does not make Blast Mine fun for the killer. The fact that killers can choose to never kick generators, does not make Blast Mine fun for killers.Being stunned for 4 seconds is never fun for the killer.
Can you please stop constantly replying "Being stunned is not fun" as if I was suggesting to stun killers just because I love being evil or whatever. I have literally only been playing killer for the past 2 years, thanks for reminding me 3 times in a row that a killer does not like losing control of their character for 5 sec, but I actually know. The part I would like you to notice is, that there's a distinction between an unavoidable 5 sec stun that can trigger reliably without the other side being able to prevent it, which is absolutely NOT what I suggest, and a stun that happens as reward for preparing a setup and outplaying your opponent.
If you're getting stunned by Blast Mine, the survivor HAS outplayed you, it means either you constantly kick the same gen and failed to find the survivor who is sneaking to repair it, or it means the survivor has purposefully left the gen at 90% as bait (hence soft thrown the game) just to see your reaction when getting blast mined. If you think that's not a "fun" interaction, then don't complain when survs only end up doing gens and leave, because that's ultimately what the game will come down to as both sides never want to recognize any sort of outplay from the other.
It's a valid take to not like Blast Mine, fun is subjective, but saying it is not a fun perk just because "it's not fun to get stunned", would be like a killer running into every pallet on the map then complain that pallets are not fun. Yes the stun itself is not fun but you're totally ignoring the whole interaction that precedes the stun and that is the reason for the object to exist.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861917#Comment_3861917
By that logic, NOED is hilarious fun for survivors, because there is a play to make to AVOID being exposed.
If it wasn"t for the fact NOED can be legit uncounterable in some situations, such as when the killer camps and the totem spawns right near the hook, then yes it would be a very fun perk. NOED has a few other issues, but the topic is not about NOED so in short: it's beginner-unfriendly and soloQ-unfriendly, teammates often ignoring NOED and just leave, which is not very exciting for either side.
But yes, apart from these issues, I would consider NOED a fun perk for both sides. I don't have problem with the exposed effect and I don't think I've seen any experienced survivor complain after BHVR reworked it in 2022. It's not "hilariously fun" though, don't exagerate, but I hope now you understand the point.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861907#Comment_3861907
How is Blast Mine “fun for both sides”? Do you honestly think killers believe it’s fun to be stunned, and not be able to see anything on their screen?
It's not GETTING stunned that is fun. It's that there's a play to make to AVOID getting stunned which is fun.
Half of the game mechanics work like that. Pallets. Killer powers. Or are you going to tell me, that pallets aren't fun because you're getting stunned by them?
If you think Blast Mine is not a fun perk then I wish we could trade our lobbies where all my survivors try to do is repair gens. Maybe you'll find that more fun.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860950#Comment_3860950
The killer being stunned for 5 seconds “fun for both sides”?
That'd be basically the effect of Blast Mine, while requiring a lot more work on the surv side to setup.
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@OneGoodBoyDemo said:
What I want to say is that everything BHVR does results in BP and I feel like the community always wants more regardless of how much they offer.
BHVR always gives BP when the game is broken, in mystery boxes, in redeemable codes, when you watch a live stream, in events that happen or when it simply wants to.
I understand that from the perspective of a new player this is very good since DBD's Grind is very extensive but it is not as bad as it used to be but I also understand that from a veteran player's perspective, he really has nothing to gain.
For veteran players who had already achieved several things before the grind change, BP became a little useless because the change not only benefited everyone in general, which is really a good thing, but it made life a lot easier for those who had already provided everything the game had to offer at the time.
I feel like BHVR could offer other cooler rewards but why do that when they know the community always wants BP...
I honestly don't understand either. BPs have almost never been a problem for me past the first 100 hours, and I play several killers with double pink add-ons, still have no trouble repleneshing them faster than I spend them. I actually hated the BP rework we got in 2022 because it only makes me spend more time in bloodwebs overall.
One thing that I find particularly puzzling is not just the exteme appeal for BPs in the community, but also the fact high-prestiged players asked BHVR to hide prestige levels. Like, I totally understand you don't want killers to dodge, but then why did you spend so much time accumulating BPs to P100 a character in the first place? It's not like the game really forces you to get P100, if you split between 3-4 characters you'll be able to play for thousands of hours while still being only prestige 10-20.
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860948#Comment_3860948
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860950#Comment_3860950
There is one serious and unfortunate problem with your suggestion though, and it's that in the current state of the game, it will encourage even more slugging & tunneling.
Yeah you’re both right. My timing is really bad on this topic 😅 I just can’t help it! I find the idea so intriguing. But thanks for stopping by and participating at least. I wanted to get some feedback that would help evolve how I feel about this idea. I would say that I have succeeded thanks to you two and everyone else who took the time to reply.
Edit: Typos
It is not your problem that BHVR allows tunneling/slugging to be so game-defining that any suggestion has to contain some form of anti-tunnel or anti-slug nowadays to be viable.
Many killers are ALREADY slugging/tunneling every game and your buffed sabo wouldn't change anything to the situation. At some point we just have to assume BHVR will eventually make tunneling less important in basegame instead of twisting the whole game around it.
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860937#Comment_3860937
What debuff effects could you see working if this idea was a perk?
Appreciate you trying to get the POV of killers when making your suggestion. The forum would be a lot healthier if more people did this.
I like your idea. Like, survivors can pre-sabo hooks, and then killer gets a negative effect when hooking on these hooks, but it would not destroy the hook entirely like current sabo. I play both sides and I can see it being fun for both sides. The effect should be powerful because survivors have to spend time away from gens. Something like a 5 sec stun + movement penalty for 30 sec. Or even an effect like "survivors can unhook themselves from the sabotaged hook after 15 sec".
There is one serious and unfortunate problem with your suggestion though, and it's that in the current state of the game, it will encourage even more slugging & tunneling. I don't think we should ever punish the killer for hooking people, but currently, sabo does exactly that, because someone going for 12-hook has 4x more chance to be affected than someone who tunnels and goes for 3. Fundamentally I consider this to be an issue with tunneling & slugging per-se, not with sabo or your suggestion, but knowing BHVR they won't get rid of these "tactics" before 2030, and until then, your idea would do more harm than good.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860333#Comment_3860333
in my opinion they probably meant the thing that was in the text of the post they made
True we're on the internet, it's not like people would write sarcastic messages
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860106#Comment_3860106
OP very distinctly said "slugging" not "downing"
i think a break from this forum would be good for your mental health you're tilting at windmills here
He just meant that survivor complaints can be unreasonable sometimes.
There are cases where slugging is problematic, like toxic bleedouts etc. But Slugging in endgame to attempt more kills with NOED is not toxic, it's normal gameplay. At this point the killer would be shooting themselves in the foot by hooking you.
I'm all for removing unfun instances of slugging, but calling everything "slugging" is counterproductive and just confuses everyone. No serious player complains about killers slugging in endgame with NOED.
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@doobiedo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859129#Comment_3859129
So this oft repeated tale i'v heard that the game used to be so survivor sided that most killers stopped playing is not true?
I can't tell for pre-2021. But for 2021:
- That most killers stopped playing? Definitely not true. The game has only been on the rise player count-wise until 2022. THEN the game became killer-sided in july 2022 and THEN the player count started to decline. If "most killers stopped playing" when the game was survivor-sided then we should have heard a peak of complaint in 2021 since that's when the game was the most survivor-sided. But most complaints you can find on the internet about survivor queue times seem to come from 2019-2020 or even 2024, there's barely anything special in 2021. I've played a lot of survivor in 2021 and my queues have never been less than 1 min, nor have I heard any Youtuber complain about it, nor have I read anything from BHVR stating that queue times were an issue.
- That some killers stopped playing, definitely. That some survivors experienced very long queues, definitely too. But there are also records of high-MMR killers experiencing long queue times, in 2021. So to me, long survivor queue times is definitely not something you could claim as being the average situation, more on the side of anecdotes.
- I can't even find any evidence in fact, that killrate has any significant effect on queue times. It is obvious it has to have an effect, but in practice it seems completely overtaken by other unrelated factors. For example, 2vs8 had the single highest queue times ever seen for killers (10-12 min average), and it was regarded as being a survivor-sided event. We don't have the killrates yet, but my guess is that they'll be around 50%. If queue times were driven by killrate, then following OP's logic, the long queue times should have been on the survivor side, not killer.
Besides, people who claim killrates ~ queue times are the ones making the claim, so they should should be the one proving it. Yet I can't find big Youtubers complaining about it or BHVR quotes saying this was ever an important factor when increasing killrates. Meanwhile I can find tons of Youtube videos showing 10 sec long queues like this or this. And I didn't cherry pick them, these are literally the first 2 videos you get when typing "DBD vod 2021".
(To be fair one person shared a 4 min queue time in this thread, I'm not ignoring it, I just think we should look at VODs because it's a more random sample, and even 4 min is not ridiculously long depending at what time/which server this person was playing)
- That most killers stopped playing? Definitely not true. The game has only been on the rise player count-wise until 2022. THEN the game became killer-sided in july 2022 and THEN the player count started to decline. If "most killers stopped playing" when the game was survivor-sided then we should have heard a peak of complaint in 2021 since that's when the game was the most survivor-sided. But most complaints you can find on the internet about survivor queue times seem to come from 2019-2020 or even 2024, there's barely anything special in 2021. I've played a lot of survivor in 2021 and my queues have never been less than 1 min, nor have I heard any Youtuber complain about it, nor have I read anything from BHVR stating that queue times were an issue.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859994#Comment_3859994
The immediate aftermath of 6.1 was positive. Thanatophobia, Eruption, Pain Resonance, Call of Brine, and Overcharge were still excellent at that time. Nowadays, these perks, with the exception of Pain Resonance, don't exist anymore.
Also, if you have followed BHVR statistics for a while, you should very well know that the stats don't really represent the reality of the game. Skull Merchant was the top killer in kill rates for a looooong time. Freddy and Pig are still top killers according to the stats, while Nurse and Blight have mediocre or low kill rates.
The stats don't really count for survivors giving up, messing up because of altruism, or just being absolute potatoes. If the devs based everything out of stats, Nurse would still have 5 blinks.
Skull Merchant was the top killer in kill rates for a looooong time
Because she actually was. People were literally killing on hook every game against her.
The stats don't really count for survivors giving up, messing up because of altruism, or just being absolute potatoes.
These don't affect Pop or DS pick rate. You claimed that Pop was killed and DS super meta. Prove it with something, or just admit you ignore stats because you don't like what they say.
Freddy and Pig are still top killers according to the stats, while Nurse and Blight have mediocre or low kill rates.
Wrong. Did you read the full stats BHVR shared in the article in question, or only the part that fits your narrative again? They shared average and high MMR stats. The average MMR part did indeed confirm what you say, Nurse and Blight were low, as expected since they are free killers and hard to play on console. For the high-MMR, absolutely not, Nurse was very clearly the best killer (with Wesker and Blight).
BHVR stats do often represent the reality of the game, it's just that BHVR don't share much of them, and then people constantly "omit" half of what that we're getting, depending on what they want to prove. The Nurse example is even more absurd that the high MMR stats were shared in the SAME article as the average MMR stats, yet I constantly see on this forum people quoting only "average" part and ignore the "high MMR" part that directly contradicts it. You're AGAIN hoping people don't know how to read, but this time you're hoping they know how to read half the article, but not the other half.
I'm not saying I'm never biased myself, or that it's easy to tell who's biased and who's not. But in your case, you are actually claiming the OPPOSITE of what the stats show.
As for Pig and Freddy, this is a basic statistics phenomenon known as Simpson's paradox. When you look at pickrate and not just killrate, you realize there are 4x less players of Freddy and Pig than Nurse, because Nurse is free, and so she will be more commonly played by new players who will decrease her killrates, while only experienced players will afford to buy and play M1 killers like Pig and Freddy. This problem goes away when we look at high MMR stats since the player experience is no longer a variable.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
Here is the aftermath of the 6.1 update
Pop was killed and to compensate we got Eruption and Overcharge, which were good for a while… Before they got nuked.
On the survivor side, Dead Hard got reworked and it is meta. DS got nerfed too, was still strong, and it got buffed again in the future. Iron Will shares the same story. OTR which was a stealth perk became a "give the survivor superpowers, Mega Decisive Strike" perk, and it is still untouched today.
So, out of the update, if you are a killer you ended up at a loss, and if you a survivor, you ended up in a profit.
It's crazy how simple verifiable statistics debunk every single sentence in this message.
The killrates directly increased from 50% to 60% following 6.1. This is literally a statement from the developers themselves. Wow very survivor-sided, almost 1.2x less chance to escape. And they stated that their goal was to make the game killer-sided with 6.1.
Pop still has the 2nd highest pickrate (17%) which is almost double of DH (11%), OTR (7%) and DS (9%). So much for a "killed perk" and so much for "Mega Decisive Strike". Lol. It's not even in the top 10, while Pop is top 2.
Now I'm just wondering if you somehow are not aware that statistics like these exist - which mean you basically never read anything BHVR publishes - or if you just lie and hope people can't read themselves. In the latter case, that'd be quite bold, because we're literally on a forum.
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Yeah it was quite terrible. Many changes were done just by looking at an Excel sheet. Popular perks were nerfed just because they were popular, without considering what impact they actually had on the game.
This resulted in many absurd changes like this:
which made killers tunnel more.
Or this:
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859129#Comment_3859129
Source? My own experience. I played back then. I remember what it was like. How can you draw conclusions from Youtube videos? First of all, you have no idea what time of day they were playing. Survivors queues have always been shorter during off-peak times. Second, there is self-selection with Youtube video uploads. Nobody is going to upload videos where they are spending 15-20 minutes waiting in a survivor queue. So there's a good reason why you only see short wait times when watching Youtube clips.
Your "own experience" is not an objective source of data that people can easily verify, while Youtube VODs are. Feel free to ignore it, my goal is not to convince you, but people can search for 2021 VODs and realize by themselves, that queue times look similar to today.
Also I'm not saying you NEVER ever got a long queue time on survivor. If you queued at 4 AM then you were going to get 4 minutes, yes. Same as today. (But even that's still not "15-20 minutes" nor "ridiculous" as you claim)
I'm saying ON AVERAGE, queues were 10-15 seconds.
Nobody is going to upload videos where they are spending 15-20 minutes waiting in a survivor queue.
I can find hundreds of VODs showing killer waiting 10-15 minutes during the 2vs8 event. Why can't you find the same for these supposed 15-20 min survivor queues?
People do not choose whether they want to upload VODs or not. That's the whole point of VODs, they are usually uploaded automatically. Hence, it's a fair sample of data.
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That's just the way it is; change my mind
If you want to change your mind, one thing you could try is to actually play survivor. Because currently your whole argument is basically "I only play killer so I don't care".
If you end up trying survivor, make sure to share your in-game name first, so me and others can make sure you enjoy the full extent of these 4 minutes
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858819#Comment_3858819
If you believe that a 60% kill rate is the game being "rigged" in favor of killer players, then it's clear that you're never going to be happy with this game. What is an acceptable and fun escape rate for you? 50%? More than that? Should survivors escape a majority of the time? What do you think killer players are going to do when the game becomes much more difficult for them? Oh yeah, probably the same thing they've always done in the past when escape rates were higher, which was stop playing the killer role and survivor queue times were ridiculously long. There is a custom game mode with bot killers if you want consistently EZ wins.
when escape rates were higher […] survivor queue times were ridiculously long
Source? I don't know who invented that claim and why it remains so popular, but survivor queues were not particularly longer in 2021, and killrate was 50% back then.
This is something you can easily verify yourself, search for "2021 dbd VODs" on Youtube, then pick random ones. The vast majority of queues seem to take less than 15s, arguably faster than today.