Saiph
Saiph
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858590#Comment_3858590
It's not just to prevent hatch.
It's:
- To prevent getting BM'd/gloated at.
- To prevent that last survivor getting a slug up and then 2 survivors griefing or attempting to get the killer to DC by hiding and taking the game hostage. Again, it's 4 minutes of wasted time versus way longer as at least if people bleed out, I can close hatch and start the collapse.
I don't BM, but I will 100% play ruthlessly if that's what it takes. Slugging isn't much fun for the killer either, but it's way less annoying than two survivors playing hide and seek forever.
The ironical part is that you probably trigger this BM yourself, by slugging for 4k which 90% of survivors consider toxic.
As Nazzzak said, slugging is a total lack of respect for your opponents' time. Don't be surprised that people waste your time in return, when you're the one who starrted it.
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So survivors are OP because killers can't get on infinite streaks?
Momo got to 1947 wins a row - yes you read that right - he literally won for 2 years straight, even with comp SWFs sniping him.
What number would you like ideally, to consider the game balanced? 1 000 000 ?
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@danielmaster87 said:
The whole scourge hook mechanic is just bad design. Ideally, it's made the way it is so that the killer has to go to 1 specific hook, as opposed to another one which might be better positioned in case he wants to come back. But being limited to only 4 and having their spawns be random instead of equally spaced means that the killer straight-up doesn't get to use their perk some matches, which can literally cost them the game.
And people are calling that good design: "Sometimes, the killer shouldn't get to use their perk that they equipped. Otherwise, it's mindless/skilless." But imagine that applied to a survivor perk. Imagine, because of some random RNG thing, you should have been able to use DS or Dead Hard because you met the conditions, but got locked out from doing so. It would be a riot. I know it's hard to draw these comparisons but, well, there isn't anything quite like bad hook RNG in the game.
The simplest response to this argument I've heard is, "Well, if we made a scourge hook perk work for every hook, then it wouldn't be a scourge hook, would it?" It's a moot point. If that aspect of the perk(s) must go, so be it. You can't use lore or original design limitations to say, "You're not allowed to balance this perk in this way." A wise man recently said, "If something exists in your game, you have to ask the question: 'How does this improve the game?'."
With current server ping problems, Dead Hard is probably the most unreliable perk in the game. The irony is that it has EXACTLY the same problem you're describing with Pain Resonance, ie. it doesn't function half the time because of factors outside of your control, yet somehow you refuse to see it just because it's a survivor perk - all of that while implying BHVR are the biased ones.
Not only is DH extremely RNG-dependent because server ping will randomly deactivate it, but it is the perk with the most conditions to activate in the game: you need to be injured, not exhausted, previously hooked, running, not in deep wound, and then hit the animation within a 0.5 sec frame window.
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@Tsanders said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856506#Comment_3856506
Survivors can hide indefinitely in 2 v 1 situations... Why should a killer be forced into that situation?
The issue that I'm having here, is that survivors can't hide indefinitely. If a survivor isn't moving around enough they get crows and then it is much easier to locate them. If the survivors aren't getting crows it means they are actively moving around, and playing the game. Sure they might not be doing gens to escape but they are still playing. Now if the survivors are moving around enough to avoid getting crows it means they can slip up and get spotted in which case you are able to chase and, hopefully, down them.
Often times in post like these killers always tell the survivors if they don't want to get slugged they just need to waste perk slots for unbreakable, as if that one time use perk is going to do anything against a killer determined to slug anyway.
Killers have access to so many more perks to help you find survivors. Maybe just work some more aura reading into you build so you don't end up in a time wasting game of hide and seek.
Playing the devil's advocate here but imo survivors hiding indefinitely for hatch is almost as big of an issue as slugging for 4k is. It's the same fundamental scenario: the main match is over, one player wants to leave (the killer), but they can't, because others stall the match.
I would agree it is rare but it happens. There is an exploit that allows survivors to do nothing and still not get crows, when both survivors do it the match can easily last 10 more minutes.
However this problem does not have a simple solution like slugging has (give-up button) - so I still find it annoying when people constantly bring it up in threads about slugging.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856471#Comment_3856471
Tactically not justified in that clip but then neither is t bagging at the gate. Some killers are just not nice people like some survivors are not nice people... I personally wouldn't hump like that but I would slug and go round smashing left over pallets and doors for extra bp. Survivors can hide indefinitely in 2 v 1 situations... Why should a killer be forced into that situation? It is what it is, I have been slugged and I have ensured server end timer. Difference being that slugging isn't reportable as it does have a timer. I'm all for give up option. But it will lead to more slugging as killers would be pushing for people to give up instead of getting hooks or wait for bleed out. I know if survivors started to give up when slugged I would slug more lol.
Also being a survivor main for 2 years I do understand the pains of survivors especially in soloq. But I play killer too so I can see both sides, and more often than not survivors usually bring it on themselves.
I guess I just don't understand why every time someone creates a topic like this showing a clear problem with a clear solution, you immediately jump to mention that survivors can be toxic.
Like yes we know survivors are toxic, the point of this topic is not to say that only killers are toxic, it is to ask BHVR to fix a basic problem in the game that has a very basic solution with almost no drawback.
The other problems you mention - survivors hiding indefinitely for hatch or tbagging indefinitely at the gates - are also problems, yes. No one denies it. Survivors hiding for the hatch does not have an obvious solution though, unlike toxic slugging, so that's why people argue with you. Not because they don't want the problem to be solved. Tbagging at the gate on the other hand has an easy solution imo which is to let the killer leave the match without penalty in endgame, if you want BHVR to implement that then go ahead and make your thread, I'll approve.
I'm all for give up option. But it will lead to more slugging as killers would be pushing for people to give up instead of getting hooks or wait for bleed out. I know if survivors started to give up when slugged I would slug more lol.
Now this is a really contradictory argument. Survivors HAVE a give up option, when you hook them. So by your logic it should to you hooking all the time instead of slugging? then why are here you are constantly defending slugging.
Besides, you say: if you could find a way to make survivors give up, then you would do it more, like what? What is the appeal of playing against AFK opponents? This is a multiplayer game, if no one wants to play with you, you should consider it a serious problem, not something to be proud of.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/434928/option-to-bleed-out-faster-when
I think the question is how did the whole team get slugged to begin with? Usually it's because whole team tries to play toxic and team blind/body block the killer when they try hook. If they do that then it's fair game. But if people are spread out doing gens then the killer shouldn't really be able to slug the whole team.. unless the team refused to heal the slugs.
Do you even play survivor? Because it doesn't seem so.
You keep coming in every thread like this, missing the point, and defending killers when that's not what anyone is talking about.
The complaint is not about tactical slugging or slugging vs. coordinated 4-man SWFs.
The complaint is about slugging in an ALREADY WON GAME being miserable for survivors who just want to leave the match.
Every soloQ player has experienced this at some point, even those who don't play survivor often.
Otzdarva literally mentioned it 2 days ago, and he's a killer main:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQtf9jXChag&t=290sThe clip below happened on Scott Jund & Zubat's stream last night, it made Zubat leave for the night.
Watch this, and explain me if this is tactically justified:
https://www.twitch.tv/scottjund/clip/SuaveHeadstrongBatteryCharlieBitMe-BiJaqLckpCoElxP-That's 2 streamers being stuck for 4 minutes, and more than 1000+ viewers being forced to watch this. It's ridiculous.
There is no reason for a person to be forced to wait up to FOUR MINUTES in a video game. Literally everyone knows this is an issue, except BHVR. Players have been asking for a "give up" button for years at this point, and it's baffling that it's still not there.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854163#Comment_3854163
I think the issue is the opposite: Most perks are completely fine, it's just a handful of meta perks that blow all the others out of the water so hard, there's no point in using the others.
Meh. I have yet to see an interesting use of Boil Over or Knockout, for example.
Half the perks in the game have just very boring effects like "get subtle +2% speed boost suddenly without the other side knowing" or "get +3% gen speed" or "trigger something that is impossible to coordinate in solo queue and extremely exploitable for SWFs". You wouldn't use these perks even if they were OP because they don't feel impactful or rewarding to use.
In contrast the current meta perks like Pain Res or WoO feel strong AND still not particularly annoying to play against. I'd much rather play against windows than Boil Over, for example, even though the latter is pretty garbage.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853962#Comment_3853962
I dunno if the casual base left as opposed to their attitude just changed. Prior to update 6.1 you could play casually. Then we had the gen kick meta, which BHVR completely dropped the ball on by letting it go on for several months. During those months you literally had to be glued to a gen or you were throwing. When it got taken away, survivors had already adapted and the concept of "gen rushing" became more prominent. Particularly because alot of killers keenly felt when the gen kick meta was taken away and they weren't getting the same results anymore. Since then the game has been on this sort of see-saw fueled by 'us vs them' rhetoric, when the reality is BHVR didn't handle the game well after 6.1 and they're still trying to fix it by slapping band aids on wherever there's a leak. IMO of course.
Probably a mix of both. Steamcharts actually shows a clear player count drop from 2021 to 2022, from 50k average (2021) to 38k average (2022). So either people have adapted but started playing a lot less often than before, or they genuinely left.
But yeah I'd agree the game really went downhill after 6.1. But to me this is not so much due to balance changes and us vs. them, but rather due to a bunch of objectively stupid changes for both sides that nobody asked for, like the Self-care nerf or Barbecue BP rework that were both extremely hostile to casuals.
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Unfortunately, I think you're right and the reality is just that half of the perks in the game are not very well designed.
But the perks in question are mostly not meta, so I wouldn't say it is that huge of a deal. They are frustrating to deal with and offer little counterplay once they are set up, but the set up often requires the player to soft-throw the game. For example, Flip Flop even when uncounterable, still involves 2-3 survivors not doing gens and giving health states for free, even if you can't hook them.
If DBD was my game, I would remove half the perks in the game, no joke. But this is obviously not something that BHVR can do, so for the time being, I agree that it's an issue, but not an important one. The best we can hope for is for BHVR to realize there are some types of perks like Coup or Boil Over which are just not healthy for the game without necessarily being strong.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854039#Comment_3854039
In solo yes you will have to bring the perk 4 times to get guaranteed value. In SWFs you only need 1 or 2 because the designated rescuer can hide and coordinate who goes for the unhook.
That's all well and good, but that doesn't mean this plan actually succeeds. Keep in mind that they'd need to hide until someone else is on death hook, and they can't participate normally until they are. This is different from Deliverance, which will be viable the moment someone else becomes the first hook target. This means as soon as someone else gets targeted by the killer, the deliverance user can safely engage with the game, which isn't the case with StB. They have to wait until someone else is on 2 hooks in order to get value.
The problem is not just that the perk is extremely strong, but that it widens the SWF - solo gap. I don't understand why solo survivors defend this perk. For every time where you successfully use it, there will be a situation where one of your teammates throws the game with it. Meanwhile this perk will make high-MMR SWFs so much stronger that the killrate will decrease and BHVR will buff killers to compensate. It is not good for the game no matter how you look at it.
The reason it's getting defended is because it is an effective way to combat tunnelling, which has been an issue for as long as DBD has existed and has been ignored for all that time. DS was a decent band-aid for the longest time but got axed for no reason, and people are excited that there's something new on the block to deal with the issue.
Over DBD's entire lifespan, it's been DS, 6.1's OTR, and this, as solutions to one of the most long-standing problems the game has.
Keep in mind as well that tunnelling is not just a matter of balance, either. Some folks may not even care if they lose the match, so long as they got to play it, instead of getting tunnelled out from start to death hook straight away.
I'm not defending tunneling at all, if anything I wish BHVR would nuke tunneling for good.
The problem is, they are nuking tunneling ONLY for a small fraction of the playerbase, and that's the part of the playerbase who doesn't need it.
It is understandable you and others are happy to see BHVR do something "anti-tunneling" on the surface, but in reality, this perk won't be what you hope for.
For solos in particular, I'm almost certain that DS will still be superior. And DS hasn't prevented tunneling.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853962#Comment_3853962
How do you not see that that's a bad metric? A 50-60% kill rate means draws all day for killer, even if you personally don't escape a lot as survivor. You won't, but 2 of your teammates will. And we know that survivors feed the killer free kills all the time.
Those killer win streaks are another extremely misleading talking point people like to use. "So because some players, which I can count on 1 hand, have been able to do large killer streaks, killer is OP." They're an anomaly and a fluke. No other killer players but then have been able to get streaks like that because they don't have the astronomical luck these guys have. Forget skill. All it takes is going against 1 decent survivor team to take your whole streak away. So there's no skill to it, in the grand scheme of things. They just keep getting lucky to be matched with subpar teams.
I don't think it's the casual survivors that have left in droves. I think it was a lot of higher level killers who got fed up and quit, or switched roles. Without the top level killers, the mid-level killers became the new top, and had to deal with all the unbeatable/toxic SWF teams and really good solo teams. And soon, those killers gave up too, forcing the next level down to shoulder the burden. And so on. You see the issue? Killer isn't balanced at high level; you're playing to lose. The survivors who quit the game over mini little killer buffs, forget them. The only killers who are left in the game are a resilient elite who may or may not have a screw loose, myself included, so they're gonna beat most teams. They just won't beat most good teams. The survivors that remain, however, are low level, and some are still beating/almost beating these killers, because of how many base buffs and unnerfed perks they've got. They just keep winning and thinking they're good because MMR isn't shown, the gens go too fast, and the tools killers have are so much weaker than the tools they have.
I'm still aghast at how people can still insist that the game needs to be pushed more casual. It can hardly get more casual! What do you think has been happening these past 4 years? Making the decision to just not balance the game is the worst thing you could do. And what's funny is people who say that aren't even consistent with their views on the game. "Don't balance the game, but don't make killers too strong! Throw balance out the window, but make sure survivor is a fair!" It's people claiming to be casual but still caring about balance that gets me, because it destroys their own argument. And nobody sees it.
A 50-60% kill rate means draws all day for killer, even if you personally don't escape a lot as survivor. You won't, but 2 of your teammates will. And we know that survivors feed the killer free kills all the time.
There's no such thing as "50-60% kill rate".
60% is completely different than 50%, due to how percentages work. A 50% means both sides are equally likely to win. A 60% killrate means one side is 1.5x less likely to win than the other, ie. extremely unfair. In almost every other multiplayer game that I play a 60% winrate would be considered a massive imbalance.
Neither 50% or 60% killrate implies "draws all day", for either side. Nightlight shows in fact, that draws are the least likely result (7% of matches). Killrate can be 50% without draws, it just means both sides win and lose as often.
Those killer win streaks are another extremely misleading talking point people like to use. "So because some players, which I can count on 1 hand, have been able to do large killer streaks, killer is OP."
I have to mention streaks because you ignore every single indicator, including official and Nightlight statistics, plus the various statements from the dev themselves saying the game is killer-sided.
It's not the fact that killer players reach long winstreaks that is a problem. It's the fact that these streaks are incredibly more common on the killer side, and last a lot longer. There are 4x more survivor players than killer players, so statistically we would expect survivor streaks to be extremely common, yet we haven't seen one team reach even half the amount of wins achieved with Nurse, Blight, Oni, Twins and even Onryo.I don't think it's the casual survivors that have left in droves. I think it was a lot of higher level killers who got fed up and quit.
There is not a single experiment or statistic that proves or even remotely implies that. At this point, it's clear you'll forever claim the game is survivor-sided no matter what the statistics show.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854027#Comment_3854027
Two things though: Firstly, it would require the right person to bring the perk, because if you hook an StB user first, the perk is effectively rendered useless for them, unless all four have it, but in that case, it's four StBs, as opposed to perks that could cost you way more time in chase or gens.
Secondly: It's a survivor perk. Just because a perk is better against tunnelling killers doesn't mean we need to go through it with a fine-toothed comb to conceive of every possible scenario where a non-tunnelling killer might be hindered by the perk and immediately cry foul. A survivor perk is supposed to benefit survivors.
Two things though: Firstly, it would require the right person to bring the perk, because if you hook an StB user first, the perk is effectively rendered useless for them, unless all four have it, but in that case, it's four StBs, as opposed to perks that could cost you way more time in chase or gens.
In solo yes you will have to bring the perk 4 times to get guaranteed value. In SWFs you only need 1 or 2 because the designated rescuer can hide and coordinate who goes for the unhook. We already see that playstyle work successfully with Deliverance, and Deliverance is already considered extremely strong in tournaments. STB will be like Deliverance, but now even more powerful for SWFs, and even worse for solos.
The problem is not just that the perk is extremely strong, but that it widens the SWF - solo gap. I don't understand why solo survivors defend this perk. For every time where you successfully use it, there will be a situation where one of your teammates throws the game with it. Meanwhile this perk will make high-MMR SWFs so much stronger that the killrate will decrease and BHVR will buff killers to compensate. It is not good for the game no matter how you look at it.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853984#Comment_3853984
I'm afraid it's a lot more than that. The perk as it is now can be used to force the killer to go 2-2-2-2 before their first kill.
Only if you're an absolute walnut, playing the game on total autopilot and really, really, really want to kill one survivor in particular, no matter the cost!
If you're at 2-1-1-1, if any of the 1s use Shoulder the Burden, they immediately put themselves on 2 and will be dead on the next hook. So if you are so dead focused on that one survivor that all other survivors use StB twice, I am sorry, but you absolutely deserve to get utterly wrecked by this perk.
The perk doesn't force you to go 2-2-2-2, but it still forces you to go 1-1-1-1, which will be a massive problem against good survivors. So still the point remains, this is not an anti-tunneling perk, it affects anyone who doesn't go for 1-1-1-1.
(btw you're damn quick, because I edited the 2-2-2-2 → 1-1-1-1 literally 1 minute after I wrote the post you quoted).
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853918#Comment_3853918
Many survivors in my games are doing this, so they do exist.
It's not about whether or not they exist, it's about what the value is.
Stacking the perk is only relevant if the same person is getting hooked over and over, in which case it's an anti-tunnel perk working against tunnelling.
Daisy-chaining it has no value, it just shifts the risk around from one person to the next. It's just using the perk for the sake of using it.
Stacking the perk is only relevant if the same person is getting hooked over and over, in which case it's an anti-tunnel perk working against tunnelling.
This is not true though and that's the problem.
There are cases where you can use StB even if the killer is not tunneling.
For example if the hook stages are 1-1-1-0, then 2-1-1-0, the killer is playing fair. But the 4th survivor can now go for the rescue and use the perk against him, making it 1-1-1-1.
Stacking the perk is only relevant if the same person is getting hooked over and over, in which case it's an anti-tunnel perk working against tunnelling.
Daisy-chaining it has no value, it just shifts the risk around from one person to the next. It's just using the perk for the sake of using it.
I'm afraid it's a lot more than that. The perk as it is now can be used to force the killer to go 3-1-1-1 before their first kill. Basically, it can punish every killer who doesn't go for 1-1-1-1 not just the ones who tunnel. Of course, solos will not be able to achieve that, but a well-coordinated SWF could, effectively making the solo-SWF balance even worse. As much as I hate tunneling as a game mechanic, it is not reasonable to force the killers to get 6+ hooks against a good team, AND at the same time still allow them to tunnel solo players.
Don't get me wrong I agree that people exaggerate the strength of this perk, and it kind of makes me happy that tunnelers will get their butt kicked for once, but I also think this is indeed a bad perk for the game long-term. Here's why:
- Solos will throw the game more often than not while attempting to use this perk. Many times the killer will be tunneling and you go for the unhook with StB, but another teammate steals the unhook and denies it, so you effectively just wasted time. Then next game, you will be scared that someone steals the unhook again, so you rush the rescue and unhook too early, which actually helps the tunneler. This perk is just too difficult to coordinate for solos, and can be too easily ruined by teammates who think they do the right thing (unhook). This will lead to frustration towards teammates, especially new players. As said I don't have any issue with anti-tunneling mechanics, but the problem is the perk as-is gives this anti-tunnel ability to SWFs and not to solos.
- Tunneling should be fixed with basekit mechanics, not perks. We now have 3 perks to counter tunneling and still 0 basekit mechanic. Encouraging this perk will reinforce BHVR in their stance that "tunneling is part of the game" because SWFs now have tons of ways to counter it when in reality it keeps getting worse and worse for solos.
- Solos will throw the game more often than not while attempting to use this perk. Many times the killer will be tunneling and you go for the unhook with StB, but another teammate steals the unhook and denies it, so you effectively just wasted time. Then next game, you will be scared that someone steals the unhook again, so you rush the rescue and unhook too early, which actually helps the tunneler. This perk is just too difficult to coordinate for solos, and can be too easily ruined by teammates who think they do the right thing (unhook). This will lead to frustration towards teammates, especially new players. As said I don't have any issue with anti-tunneling mechanics, but the problem is the perk as-is gives this anti-tunnel ability to SWFs and not to solos.
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alot has happened over the years with the community itself especially both sides of killlers and survivors. The game is more survivor sided for sure but also it depends on the type of killer that makes survivors go against which makes situations killer sided.
Every indicator we have shows that the game is killer-sided. Every single killer is above 50% killrate right now, most of them around 60%, while survivor as a whole has 40% escape rate. The devs themselves stated their goal was to increase the killrate from 50% to 60% over the years. So no, that is factually wrong.
And before you speak about sweaty 4-man SWFs, this is not unique to the survivor side, on the killer side sweaty Blights and Nurses achieve THOUSANDS of winstreaks with them, something even tournament SWFs can't rival. I have yet to see a single other multiplayer game where such winning streak is allowed.
Yet, paradoxically, it is true that the game has become harder for killers. Do you know why?
It's not because of balance. It's because the casual playerbase has left. The game has almost 30% less players now than in 2021. So, before, the game was survivor-sided, but you were playing against 200-hour potatoes who were just enjoying a game and didn't care about winning. Now, these players have left, and what remains are only the long-time, dedicated players with thousands of hours and who often approach the game as a tournament. Even though the game itself is killer-sided now, your chances of winning are much lower than in the past, simply because you get tougher opponents.
This game's approach to balance & fun should be reconsidered completely. Our collective goal should be to make the game more casual and beginner-friendly, not necessarily more balanced.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851003#Comment_3851003
There are a bunch of factors not included in your assessment here that play a big factor.
A huge one being: just because people bring the perk doesn't mean they're going to get value from it. They may get to second stage first (tunneling), they may not get the unhook, and most importantly, it may not be a smart idea to activate the perk of the killer is camping and you'll be insta downed for no gain.
You also have the problem that even just moving hook stages around isn't always going to be a net benefit for the survivor team. If your "weak" player, or someone with a meme build, makes themselves the target it will net lose time for the team over someone who can loop better or has a chase oriented build.
I think you misread what I wrote because you responded to the wrong thing. In the 2-1-1-0 scenario, there's a 75% chance the one STB player is already hooked meaning they're either already on death hook, or putting themselves on death hook to use the perk. Which is much much greater than the 25% to use it completely safely.
And all of that is contingent on the other factors I mentioned above as well.
I've re-read the conversation and now I realize we talk about something different.
When I say the scenario can be "common", I'm not saying it will be "common" for survivors to get value from the perk, that's not at all the topic of the message you initially quoted and in fact they will NOT get common value as you have pointed out (a given survivor gets value at most 25% of the time at most).
My message is from the perspective of a killer playing nice. What I'm saying is that it will be common for them to get hit by the perk, the exact percentage can be debated but let's say that it is 25%, I think you agree that it would be not just "common" but actually broken for a perk labelled as "anti-tunneling" to still trigger 25% of the time against someone who never tunnels. In reality my experience so far is that it triggers much less than 25% and more like 10% of the time, but that's still a lot. Imagine if you never tunneled and still got hit by DS about 10% of the time while chasing the unhooker, and then people tell you on the forum to stop tunneling, you'd have a reason to be annoyed, well that's what will happen with this perk. In the conversation you quoted, the 2-1-1-0 scenario was just to show a concrete example where that happens, I replied that to GeneralV and some others who said if you don't tunnel you will never get affected by it.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851083#Comment_3851083
But I don't know how you could do that. If you gave it a condition like 'if more than one survivor has been hooked, StB deactivates', it would be absurdly weak. And if the goal was to completely and absolutely eliminate tunneling, like if that was BHVR's new design philosophy, then they'd go with a basekit mechanic.
Like Unbreakable is a anti-slugging perk, but it doesn't mean the only time you get value out of it is against a full out slugging killer.
They should go with a basekit effect, yes. Extending hook timers by +10 sec for example was an excellent move against camping, it is straightforward (no need to learn yet another mechanic, important for new players), does little for SWFs, while making a big difference for solos.
Against tunneling, they could give something like OtR basekit: no noise, no scratch marks for the unhooked survivor, extend basekit BT to 90 sec. If it's too strong, then give something like Make Your Choice basekit for killers, which gives a reward for not tunneling. When it's just a "too weak" vs "too strong" question, then we have solved the problem, as that can always be fine-tuned.
In contrast when it's a question of "too weak for solos" vs. "too strong for SWFs" then that can NOT be fine-tuned as no matter which direction you move you will make the game unfair for one side. STB does not address tunneling, instead it pushes it even more in the "solo vs SWF" direction, which is completely backwards. On top of that, it happens to also work against non-tunneling killers. It is an unhealthy perk for the game no matter which side you play imo.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851003#Comment_3851003
It won't happeneverygame sureBut if a perk doesn't get used every game, it should have more value in the instances in which it does.
In particular, it can also happen in 2-1-0-0, and now you have 2x more chance that one of the unhookers has the perkAnd if the survivor A or B have it, its a dead perk slot.
The important question is: what else might the survivors have been running? Did the survivor at two hooks run StB instead of something that would have helped them looping and maybe they never would have been caught? Maybe they would have had something like Resurgence that would have made it easier for them to be healed before the killer got to them for the second hook?
And even if want to imagine that the survivors at zero hooks are the only ones with shoulder the burden, what did they give up to use it? Did they play in a cautious manner instead of slamming gens because they wanted to be sure they would be safe to use it? Could they have brought gen perks to get gens done faster so that one survivor being on death hook doesn't really matter? Or maybe they could have brought something like babysitter so when the 2 hooked survivor gets unhooked, he can still get away from the killer and wastes even more of the killer time.
Shoulder the burden can have value of course. But perks should be able to get value and to evaluate them on a balance front we need to compare them to the other options survivors have and the pros and the cons. Right now it seems to fall into the category of situational with a high possibility of no value.
I am not saying that the perk is too strong or too weak, I'm just saying it is not an anti-tunnel perk like most people thought at first glance. It will affect even killers who spread hooks.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850921#Comment_3850921
I mean, in this magical hypothetical scenario you also have to have 4 survivors all running the perk for this to even be guaranteed (along with some pretty tight coordination). Otherwise random chance dictates that there's a much, much greater chance the one person who brought STB is already hooked in that case.
And if you have 4 copies of one perk on the survivor team and only one of those 4 even gets value, that sounds like a gigantic win for the killer already.
This is not a "magical hypothetical scenario" at all? It will literally work in every scenario that doesn't go 1-1-1-1, I just gave one example across hundreds of possible ones. In particular, it can also happen in 2-1-0-0, and now you have 2x more chance that one of the unhookers has the perk. It won't happen every game sure, but empirically I'd say the perk already gets used ~1/10 of the time against me right now and I don't tunnel, and it has a game-changing effect when it happens. (To be fair though, it was counter-productive for the survivor team half of the time, so right now it's not frustrating to play against, but it could be in the future)
What do you mean by:
there's a much much greater chance the one person who brought STB is already hooked in this case
Given a 2-1-1-0 scenario, the chance that the person who brought STB has not been already hooked, is simply 25%. 1 out of 4. That's quite common.
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@joel84 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850944#Comment_3850944
I'm not trying to defend anything here. I'm expressing facts and the truth and something else
“I'm not in favor of winning or losing. I want to have a chance to win.”
That is so contradictory. That's when I stopped reading…. Be that as it may. The nerf is coming. But that won't stop me from playing and testing crazy builds, and if you don't believe me that I'm Survivormain, that's your problem, not mine.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850939#Comment_3850939
right. It's more fun to sit at a gen for 90 seconds or play copied metabuilds. Play your thing. I do mine and have fun doing it. That's all that matters to me, ok? greetings
I'm not saying you should play meta builds.
I'm not EVEN saying you can't play horrible builds.
The problem is, in this topic you are not JUST telling us about a horrible build, you are ALSO defending a busted killer perk, while RECOMMENDING your horrible build as a supposed counter to it - all of that, while telling other survivors to "stop whining" and encouraging them to throw the game for hatch.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850921#Comment_3850921
That won't have much of an effect, because if you aren't tunneling then you wouldn't chase the first survivor anyway, considering they just got unhooked. If you go for the unhooker, even if you don't get them instantly with the exposed downside, they are now on death hook and the situation doesn't change for the other two survivors.
It has no effect if you don't tunnel.
The first survivor wasn't necessarily just unhooked, he might even be the one coming back to rescue the person who used the burden.
Full example, say you never tunnel and every time, you chase the unhooker:
Without shoulder the burden:
- 0-0-0-0
- 1-0-0-0
- 1-1-0-0
- 2-1-0-0 (survivor 1 rescued survivor 2)
- 2-1-1-0 (survivor 3 rescued survivor 1)
- 3-1-1-0 (survivor 1 rescued survivor 3)
→ 1 kill
With shoulder the burden:
- 0-0-0-0
- 1-0-0-0
- 1-1-0-0
- 2-1-0-0 (survivor 1 rescued survivor 2)
- 1-1-2-0 (survivor 3 rescued survivor 1 and used shoulder the burden)
- 2-1-2-0 (survivor 3 rescued survivor 2)
→ 0 kill
The killer is not tunneling in this example, chasing the unhooker every time, and yet the perk denied them a kill.
You can check that in both cases, the survivors are hooked and unhooked in the exact same order, the only difference is survivor 3 used shoulder the burden at step 5.
I think getting your first kill at 6 hooks would be considered by everyone to be fair, but the perk can deny it.
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@joel84 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850829#Comment_3850829
Counter Force and Inner Strength are a powerful combination and save a lot of time. Hardened benefits from Counter Force and Plunderers. It also works against Face The Darkness and other perks that make you scream, and Plununderers additionally gives you a chance to find a key if the round goes horribly due to the increased chance of better items.
I can deal with that. It's my own combo and nothing copied. I enjoy experimenting with it. I'm not interested in the rest.
Counter Force and Inner Strength are a powerful combination and save a lot of time.
Still takes more time than just healing with a medkit (let alone if we compare with syringe).
Hardened benefits from Counter Force and Plunderers.
3 perks just to counter screaming perks in the 10% eventuality that the killer has one. Meanwhile you have no exhaustion perk which would trigger 100% of the time.
A perk like Sprint Burst alone saves more time than all the perks you equipped.
Plunderer's gives you a chance to find a key if the round goes horribly
The round will go horribly because you spend all game doing totems and chests instead of gens, just to setup perks which don't even have good effects. By the time they activate you have effectively thrown the game for your team, but then you escape through hatch, and then you come to the forum explaining why survivors need to get better, lol. At least now it makes sense why you don't need exhaustion.
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@GeneralV said:
As @jesterkind said, it basically doesn't affect you at all unless you're hard tunneling someone, and their teammates just happen to have the perk equipped.
It is fine, overall. I wish it was a little bit better, but it isn't a problem for the game.
It actually affects even non-tunneling killers.
For example, if the killer gets hook states 1-1-1-0, then 2-1-1-0, then they are clearly not tunneling. Yet someone uses the burden and now it's 1-1-1-1. The killer played nice and yet the perk still works against them.
This perk is not particularly anti-tunnel, it basically affects every killer who doesn't go for 1-1-1-1.
Meanwhile, BHVR will think they addressed tunneling, even though this perk does nothing for solos.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850855#Comment_3850855
That really makes it sound like the perk is doing exactly what it is intended to do.
If the killer is getting to 2-0-0-0 against a SWF this probably means the killer is tunneling / camping one survivor. Because if they leave the hook they should have a much more diversified hook spread, like 2-1-1-0. Now StB could still be useful there if the 0 hook has it, but you aren't going to get a circular unhook situation without either a very weird game or a tunneling killer.
I'm all for anti-tunneling, but this perk is not the way to go.
It gives the anti-tunneling ability to SWFs, instead of soloQ survivors.
SoloQ survivors will have to rush the unhook in order to not get it stolen by their teammates, unhooking too early and effectively making camping and tunneling worse.
Meanwhile, BHVR will think tunneling is not a problem anymore, because they have introduced a perk to fight it, even though it does not address the problem.
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The way I understand it, the truly game-breaking part is that SWFs can use it circularly.
For example, if the hook states are 2-0-0-0 someone can use it and it becomes 1-1-0-0. Then if the killer downs the person who used the burden, it becomes 1-2-0-0, but then someone else can use the perk again and it's 1-1-1-0. Effectively, this forces the killer to go through 1-1-1-1 stages and require 6 hooks before the first kill instead of 3, effectively game-breaking.
The game-breaking part is not that it reduces the total number of hooks to win (it doesn't) but it delays the fist kill, making the 4v1 longer, during which gens get progressed 30% faster than in 3v1.
Unfortunately while it's a very strong perk for SWFs, it won't improve anything for solos because it's tied to a perk and can be ruined so easily by your teammates stealing the unhook. If the killer tunnels, there are ALREADY game-breaking perks in the game, these are Decisive and OtR, which everyone regards as the two strongest perks in the game, and yet it didn't prevent tunneling at all because the majority of players don't use it in soloQ.
BHVR has to stop locking anti-tunnel mechanics behind perks because it's counterproductive for balance, it only make coordinated teams stronger while effectively doing nothing for the majority of the playerbase.
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@joel84 said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/63R5JI9B64JX/blablatotems.jpg
stay tuned they said….. I don't need to tell anyone what that means.
What does it mean to consider in an upcoming hotfix? Do they want to remove the tokens or lower the % value? This smells like a nerf again and only because there is a lot of whining instead of finally getting involved. I also only play solo Q and have no problems with totems. On the contrary, it can even be very exciting. But the majority of people aren't interested in it. All that matters to them is wins, wins, wins, even though they don't even know their own hidden number. That's so ridiculous.
Pack a map with reach add-ons and use Counterforce, Inner Strength, Hardened and Plunderers Instinct and you'll have a very great time and fun playing the game. People should finally get involved and get out of their comfort zone instead of complaining because they can't play their WOO DS DH builds.
Pack a map with reach add-ons and use Counterforce, Inner Strength, Hardened and Plunderers Instinct and you'll have a very great time and fun playing the game
It's unfortunate you couldn't find a way to replace Inner Strength with No Mither somehow, because then that would be the worst build I've ever seen recommended on this forum
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I feel like you could have found some even worse examples lol. Even this horrible tile does not come close to what's on Borgo's surface nowadays.
Let's all remember this thing used to exist:
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
It doesn't actually appear to be an oversight, and besides - Hexes needed OSMETHING to make them viable. This does that. Are we seriously complaining that Killers aren't using gen regression besides Ruin to make games not be 10 minutes of gens popping to and fro? Is this really how low we've stooped, complaining about Hexes of all things?
Are Killers allowed to have anything good and strong? Ever? Let Killers have Hexes be strong for all I care, if Survivors can have their strong perks so can Killers. Besides, you get points for the cleansing anyway.
Do you seriously think they would more than double the effect of Thrill of the hunt without even trying it on PTB? And do you think they would phrase such a massive buff as "reduced speed by 14% per totem (was 9%)" in an obscure part of the patch note?
The dev intended it to be a 70% increase in duration, not a 70% decrease in speed. We've seen them do this mistake multiple times with killer add-ons. (A 70% decrease in speed means 330% duration).
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It's very obviously an oversight, and not something that the devs intended. Pretty sure it will be reverted.
Misunderstanding the effect of cumulated percentages is one of the most common math mistakes. Based on how it was phrased in the patch notes, the dev who changed the number probably intended to buff Thrill by +20%. But in effect, it ends up being a +120% buff, leading to 330% longer totems in total.
Now I won't blame BHVR for the math, I've seen so many people do this same exact mistake that I've basically stopped using percentages, I prefer to use ratios when possible eg. phrase it as "1.2x faster" or "1.2x slower" instead of "20% slower". However what's still very questionable here is that the person who tweaked the number did not test this change - you literally just need to equip the perk and try to cleanse a totem to realize there's a problem.
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I don't think devs are scared about 2v8.
The ones who are really scared, are the people who play exclusively killer, especially those on this forum.
Because they finally realize, that for years people have played survivor not because it is "easy", but simply because it's the role that allows you to play with friends.
When the ability to play with friends appears on the killer side, suddenly everyone wants to play killer.
If 2vs8 was permanent, killers would have to get massive nerfs to rebalance queue times. Which is a complete taboo here.
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No soloQ for me until it comes back
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845697#Comment_3845697
you mean you dont see how looking at him while weakened makes the bar go down and a noise starts playing?
i mean, if you're suggesting that a person cannot know about that BEFORE their first ever unknown match, then sure, but why does that matter? it takes a single unknown encounter and a bit of observation to notice the pattern and figure it out.
at this point it would make more sense to complain about the projectile`s trajectory/explosion being very difficult to predict even with experience because how it interacts with the collisions
I mean he has a point that the tendency lately has been to make overwhelmingly complex killers.
Back then you could figure what killers would do just with the 1 line of advice the game showed you while loading. In fact, some killers like Huntress or Trapper were so basic, you could tell what they do just by their name and silhouette.
This allowed for the advice to often be something actually advanced and genuinely useful, like "block LOS against Nurse" etc.
In contrast, the last killer alone (Dracula) has 3 alternative forms, each with a power, the second-to-last one has 4 selectable powers. At this point the game advice is not even sufficient to describe what these killers do, and the only way to figure out what a power does is to die several times to it, which is frustrating. And then even once you understand what the power does, you still have to figure out the counterplay to it, but most of the recent killers are also pretty strong, so you probably will still die for many matches before you can even win a chase. This is impossible to keep up for survivors who don't play that much, after every break you have to learn 3 new killers, while also maintaining your knowledge of the 30+ previous killers some of which have been reworked in-between.
I'd argue one reason why 2v8 is popular for casuals is because you don't have to learn 40 killers and 150 perks to play it.
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@SweetbutaPsycho said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845309#Comment_3845309
Not really sure if validation really happens only on killer screen and always gives killers advantages.
At least in my experience as a 2000 hours huntress main I had a lot of high ping survivor get hit by a hatched, make an injured sound and bleed but not lose a health state cause the hit didn't register for them.
If it would only be killer validation shouldn't that hit count?
I've noticed that regularly as Huntress too, even though I have 20 ms ping. I don't know why this happens but I'd say that behavior is specific to her hatchets and probably a remnant of when the game was server-sided.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845309#Comment_3845309
i dont even want to argue with that nonsense.
if what you are saying was the case, then low ping survivors would get hit equally as everyone else in the same lobby as the killer, yet that's never the case.
try actually playing the game and seeking out lobbies where most survs are +- on the same 50-60 ping as you except some guy who lives in the same building as the server. then try to get any close hits on them, like hitting them into last moment of fastvault, hit them through pallet while they drop it halfway through, etc.
even by your logic they're still at double if not triple reaction time advantage than normal ping survivors which allows low ping survivors to trivialize a lot of tiles and interactions that require making basic reads on what killer does instead of just holding checkspot and be guaranteed to react & make it to the vault / get the stun. dumb, boring and onesided ######### and it's sad you're apologizing it.
validation systems that ppl like OP are suggesting and people like you are defending will result into making this game even further ping dependant than it is already, while removing actual interaction between players that's possible because not everything is reactable.
Tournaments are played with <80 ms ping restriction and killers have no trouble winning chases there.
If they can win without exploits, so can you.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845126#Comment_3845126
and i have 12 thousand, so? im terminally online in this game and i literally know better. 20ms survivors are already getting away with so much ######### they never should and adding extra means of "validation" will only make it worse.
This is complete copium. You can't see 20ms survivors "getting away with things they never should" because the validation is done on the killer's screen anyway. It doesn't matter if the survivor has 20ms, 0 ms or 1000 ms, if you hit them on your screen they'll get injured, from your perspective it doesn't change anything, you're effectively always playing as a 0ms killer against a 0ms survivor, because all the calculations are done on your computer.
The only way you can gauge survivor ping would be by looking at the survivor's screen. It is physically impossible to see it as killer. The only thing you'll notice as killer is that the survivor will appear to have slower reaction time, but it will be impossible to tell if that's because of ping or just because the survivor player is slow.
Even at 20ms ping, the survivor is still at a disadvantage, they see you 20ms late. On your screen they will appear to have a 20ms slower reaction time. And regardless, it still doesn't change whether your swing will hit or not.
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For anyone without any empathy in the matter though know that for someone who's enjoyed this game since release & actively wants to play this with his friends having FUN this game can be that win or lose, the things that can annoy people are the parts to this game that are getting out of hand & that are horribly unfortunate to deal with. Not every player needs to learn to loop & shouldn't have to. Not every player has great coordination, & not every player should be expected to just play something else because they in your eyes clearly suck to much. The "sucks to suck" mentality is what sucks most.
This is the part of your text that surprises me the most. To me, 2vs8 is a lot more casual than 1v4 and is precisely what makes it so much more fun. I see it as the solution from BHVR for the many people who asked for a split between "casual" and "competitive" queues. I genuinely wish it would stay permanently.
It is of course fine to not like this mode but if you played only 5 games and your reasoning is that it's too hard, I think you might just have had an unlucky experience, because I'd argue the goal of this mode is the exact opposite. Here's mine (played about 50 games on each side):
- On survivor side this mode is incredibly more chill than 1v4. No MMR, basekit protections against tunneling, slugging and camping, games feel a lot closer, and because gens go so fast you still have a lot of time to meme with survivors and loot chests without throwing the game. The chase game is easier because of all the pallets on the map, and this is where I'm surprised by your "Sucks to suck" point - the mode is the most beginner-friendly DBD has ever been: there are only 8 killer powers to learn, no perks, and no MMR. Tunneling still happens but was very uncommon in my experience, in the future it might become more common but for now I'd say you were really unlucky if you had that happen in 2 games.
- On killer side the queue times are a huge issue and almost invalidate the mode I'd say. But the gameplay once it happens, is fun, because it's basically just chases and it's what I like the most, one QoL I really appreciate is the time gained by NOT having to carry survivors to hooks anymore. It might get eventually stale at some point but to me the possibility to play with my friend makes up for it for now. In solo queue you'll likely not do more than 3-4 kills as your teammate will usually be incompetent, but you'll still do tons of BPs, and as long as you accept that it's soloQ and a casual mode, it'ss very chill as well.
Something I've observed is that the quality of the games varies a lot depending on the day of the week and hour at which you play. This is true on every game I've played. If you've only played 5 games, probably give it a few more tries, your experience might completely change the next time you try it. In my case, I don't think I'll go back to 1v4.
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3842739#Comment_3842739
Is there anything for killers in 2v8 that is genuinely overturned? I don’t think there is a single thing that’s overturned considering how easy it is for survivors to win.
You could easily write a similar list on the survivor side. Here'd be my top5:
- Nurse gets random aura reading on you during blinks, completely breaking her counterplay, and it happens completely randomly.
- Server lag is much more common now and almost always disadvantages survivors (example).
- Getting 2v1'd feels awful as you can't do anything but press W and ultimately die. I think this one is fine to stay as it's the core of this mode. But it still feels awful.
- Trapper is horrible to play against, as he basically makes the game a constant 2vs1 for his duo, you now need to look for traps while also looking behind you to dodge hatchets or Nurse blinks. His traps seem much harder to see, he now has some nearly invisible spots like this one.
- SoloQ teammates are still abysmally bad and because you are now only 1 player out of 8, your skill matters even less than in 1v4.
It's true that because gen speed is so fast, the mode is objectively survivor-sided, but getting constantly ######### on during chases due to lags or random traps then having the game tell you "You escaped" because you sat on gens all game is just as frustrating as what OP described, if not more.
(I do want to acknowledge though that despite all these flaws I think BHVR did an amazing job with this mode and it's still a lot more fun for me than 1v4).
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It's true that on a purely competitive balance point the mode would be survivor-sided.
But due to lack of MMR and the fact that competitive SWFs are no longer a thing in this mode (because you would need 8 people which is impractical) means both sides can win the game easily now.
I started playing this mode as killer with a friend and past the first few games we basically won every single one. The reason why we ultimately switched to surv, was none of the things you listed, it's because the queues are just unbearably long and that's in fact my ONLY complaint with this mode.
You complain 90% about survivor things, but survivor is currently the role with low player count. We need more incentives to play survivors, not less, and some of the things you listed are some of the only reason to play this mode on the survivor side, like the overabundance of pallets or broken class powers
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Can confirm, and I can think of at least two other maps where it occurs: around the vault of the small ship on Swamp, and on the downards path leading to basement on Suffocation Pit. This bug always involves a slope. The trap is not actually invisible but gets placed under the slope, when you play as the Trapper you can see your trap actually through the ground.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836604#Comment_3836604
It's a good question.
The data from BHVR says each survivor has a 40% chance of escaping on average, no in-game condition attached.
On the web app, I draw the actual mean escape rate of the survivors (in blue). It converges close to the chosen rate.
The way I see it, the reason survivors have escaped isn't really relevant, only that they have escaped at a rate close to that specified value. And of course the main information is the deduced killer win rate for said value.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836612#Comment_3836612
I've given the program so people could play with it "refuse to share the value". Conspiracy theorist much?
The draws are irrelevant as they mean that both teams have got a null.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836626#Comment_3836626
"proven wrong" then proceeds speaking about something I've specifically said was irrelevant.
I don't believe you understand what this is about.
So, no comment on the 50% wins - 32% draws - 18% losses part?
Your OWN EXPERIMENT returns a 18% win rate for the survivor team, which most people would agree is killer-sided. Any reason you have "omitted" to share this part of the output of the program?
I feel like people reading your topic would have found this 18% number at least informative, don't you agree?
Any reason you have only shared the 50% winrate of the killer, silently implying that survivors win the other 50%, when YOUR OWN PROGRAM shows the rest if made almost only of draws, and very rarely do survivors actually win?
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Alright.
Since OP refuses to share the draw rate, I ran the program myself. Result:
- Wins : 47.5% (3K or 4K)
- Draws : 34.7% (2K)
- Losses : 17.7% (1K or 0K)
This is literally the output of the program shared by OP, from which he claims that the game is balanced. Anyone can run it and see these numbers, just by copy pasting the code in a Python interpreter.
So let me quickly summarize.
- Killers win 47.5% of the time. Survivors win 17.7% of the time, 3 times less. The rest are draws.
- OP saw these numbers, and concluded that "Killer winrate is only 47% so the game is balanced".
- When asked to share the full numbers, especially that draw rate, which reveals the trick, OP kept refusing, even saying that draws are "irrelevant".
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3835326#Comment_3835326
I am a Myers main. Have been since 2017. I know all the ins and outs of him. But thanks for the ignorant assumption. You don't have to be rude.
I don't understand your logic. You've just tried to sell me the idea that Judith's tombstone takes forever to get going and they all just jump in lockers anyway. So if that's the case according to you, why would anyone care that they nerfed it if its not good anyway? You're just proving my point of why piece was more favored.
I've just been watching some people play him on the PTB. The base kit changes are fantastic. The tier 1 movement speed buff. The stalking at a distance is insane. Not to mention they decreased the stalk requirement to get to tier 2. It was wonderful. He's going to feel so much better to play. With the buffs to stalking I don't think he'll even feel that nerf to tombstone much stalk wise.
Agree to disagree but I think this is going to boost Mikey even more pick rate wise. Anyone who enjoys Myers will be loving these changes I think. Just my humble opinion as a long time Myers main.
It's not "rude" to say you have never played a killer, come on. Seems like I was wrong assuming this, but when your name is "Dwight_Fairfield", that you disagree with Otz and you say you want to "nuke" an average add-on because you basically don't care, it seems logical to assume this. Also to be clear, I'm not talking about the "unfun" aspect, that one is a valid criticism, but the strength of the add-on however is at this point objective: you will not find a single top player that tells you Judith's is good.
why would anyone care that they nerfed it if its not good anyway?
Because it literally goes against the whole premise of doing balance changes? We should nerf things that are strong, not things that are already weak.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3835229#Comment_3835229
Except its not his only power. He still has the mirror add ons and the piece is still strong.
Yes the community has been asking for years that they nuke tombstone add ons. The ability to just insta kill survivors has never been popular. No offense to Otz but that's his opinion not mine. He's not the final word on something Dbd related and he would be the first to tell you that himself.
So you can disagree with Otzdarva's opinion but in this case it's pretty apparent you have never played this killer to make yourself an opinion at all… Again, Judith's Tombstone is not Tombstone Piece. While Tombstone Piece allows you to quickly stalk and insakill survivor who you haven't seen in the entire game, Judith's Tombstone usually take 4 gens to charge up fully and by the time you have it everyone hides in lockers, no more "instakill". It's fair to say this playstyle is not to your taste but not acknowledging the difference between both add-ons is questionable as their playstyles are completely different. Judith's also has a -9% speed penalty which is huge and pretty much forces you to use PWYF.
Try it and you'll quickly reconsider. The reality is, Judith's is not a very good add-on.
And FYI even if you play only survivor this change will be detrimental. As it stands on PTB, Judith's Tombstone got nerfed a lot more than Tombstone Piece, so the logical result will be that more people will play Tombstone Piece.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3835193#Comment_3835193
No offense I am disregarding your first comment because that's personal opinion. There's a reason the community has been asking for years to buff his base kit and nuke the tombstone add ons. So I don't buy into your logic at all.
Again Judith's tombstone is not even the most popular of the two. The piece is. Always has been.
Myers is currently the 7th most popular in the game, despite being a paid killer. Do you seriously think it will be the case if he becomes a killer whose only power is to expose survivors? When there are killers like Plague or Hillbilly who have almost the same effect, but are much more interesting to play, free, AND much stronger?
The community has not been asking to nuke the Tombstone add-ons they asked to nuke Tombstone piece. Check Otzdarva's Tier-list, he rates Judith's Tombstone as completely average.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3835150#Comment_3835150
You don't see how buffing his base kit is good changes?
Piece is the more popular of the two tombstone add ons because it's easier to get going with no speed downsides when you hit tier 3. You can have someone dead at 5 gens. Why would you assume any of this would hurt his pick rate?
Myers' base kit is boring and has nothing unique. Nobody will play him basekit, even with the buff.
The reason he's popular is because of Tombstone and the Mirror add-ons. Now that they obliterated Judith's Tombstone, half of the reason to play Myers is gone, hence his pickrate will drop. And this is a stupid change, because Judith's is by far the fun one for survivors.
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@Gardhome said:
The Shape - Basekit- Increased Evil Within I movement speed to 4.4 m/s (was 4.2 m/s)
- Increased maximum stalk per Survivor to 20 points (was 10)
- Decreased the amount of Evil Within required to reach Evil Within II to 3 (was 5)
- Increased the Evil Within gain multiplier when stalking from afar to 1 (was 0.1)
- Decreased the Evil Within gain multiplier when stalking from up close to 0.4 (was 1)
- Fragrant Tuft of Hair: Increased the Evil Within III requirement to 20 (was 10)
- Lock of Hair: Decreased the Evil Within III requirement to 50% (was 100%)
- Judith's Tombstone: Increased the Evil Within III requirement to 20 (was 10)
- Tombstone Piece: Increased the Evil Within III requirement to 15 (was 7.5)
- Scratched Mirror: Decreases Evil Within I movement speed to 4.2 m/s (NEW)
That changes hes see on PTB. And they are really good. Tier 1 not useless anymore, Myers cannot lose his power anymore cause increased stalk points. More stalk from a far. And tombstone addons save its uniqness but make them more fair in case of time wasting.
I don't see how these are good changes. They changed everything except the problem, which is the ability to 99% Tombstone and suddenly kill someone who you haven't stalked the entire game.
Judith's Tombstone also got unnecessarily nerfed. Only Tombstone piece needed a nerf. Judith's is not a good add-on, it's fun to use but requires to stalk all 4 survivors before you have a power, which is way too bad of a downside. Now that it's nerfed, I don't expect Tombstone to be any less frustrating, rather I'd expect Myers' pickrate to drop.
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Ah yeah, the weekly "math" fallacy trying to pretend killer wins only 50% of their games.
You DON'T NEED to know Python to understand the fallacy.
Because EVERY time, the trick is the SAME : draws. Instead of counting the wins / loss for both sides (which shows 60 - 40 in favor of killer) , the person will try to split into wins / draws / losses (which gives 50 - 15 - 35 instead, still in favor of killers). Then, they "magically" forget draws, and tell you "Look, killers win only 50% of their game". But the thing is, even under this convention, survivors win only 35% of the time, because 15% are draws. So this is STILL completely killer-sided.
And of course, this time is no exception.
As I said, no need to understand the full code, nor the math: we trust OP for this. The only part that we want to look for, is how they deal with draws. And how, what a surprise: notice that OP's code explicitly computes "draw rate" at line 30, but then never uses it anywhere. Only the "win rate" and "escape rate" in the graphics are shown. Isn't it weird? Why would you bother computing the "draw rate", then in the end not do anything at all with it?
The answer is - and OP perfectly knows it - that if they would show you the draw rate (or survivor win rate, even better) on the graph then it will reveal a completely opposite narrative to the one they're trying to paint. Under the convention that they created, yes killers only win 50% of their games, but survivors only win 35%, and the rest are draws.
Now in this case though we are reaching some particularly disturbing levels of manipulation, as OP added unnecessary complexity to the post in order to "scare" people away and just trust that he has done the math. But no, just because someone used Python does not mean he did "math" nor was honest about it (Python is in fact complete overkill as you could just use Nightlight data to prove the same point).
Speaking about honesty, this quote - from the main post - is particularly questionable:
All in all, the "power role" (in the theme) only wins about half the time, which mean, as a team, survivors win about half the time too, on average, overall.
Now this is a blatant lie. You know very well that YOUR OWN data shows something like 35% winrate for survivors, not 50%, and don't forget I can run your Python script myself if you don't want to reveal the numbers.
It's unfortunate that you did this experiment in an attempt to show that the game is not killer-sided, and it completely backfired: not only does the data it produces show that the game IS in fact killer-sided, but it also directly debunks that "killers win only 50% of the time" fallacy.
Redo the same graph, but show us the survivor winrate as well as the killer winrate, please..
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Stupid teammates is not the cause, it is a consequence. As soloQ is the worst experience in the game, smart players avoid playing it, and so you're left with mostly new or bad players, which in turn makes soloQ even worse and so even more good players leave etc. The rare good players left, usually don't care about winning either, since they have realized it's prone to frustration.
As to how to fix it, there's no short-term solution, but at least one thing I can see the majority agree with is to remove the dumb selfish perks like Left Behind or Sole Survivor. SoloQ is already selfish enough, the game should not encourage it more. I'd argue you should also get bonus bloodpoints if you're getting tunneled/camped and taking hits for your teammates. Currently, the person getting tunneled is guaranteed to die with the lowest amount of BPs, despite having the most important role, and the Claudette who hides all game for hatch gets the most BPs. this is completely backwards.
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@MarbleThrone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830338#Comment_3830338
How the hell did you type all that and completely miss the point the OP is making. This was about tome challenges and rewards. I guess you copypasta'd it from somewhere else and didn't read what OP wrote?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/431227/am-i-being-a-spoiled-brat
Event challenges tend to be mostly mixed challenges, which means you can do them on either role. Some exceptions apply, but if previous events are something to go by there will be a surplus of trinkets so you won't miss out on any rewards if you decide to play only one side.
Regular tomes also allow you to complete them as either Killer or Survivor. Nobody is forcing you to do anything, you can still complete them in the role of your choice. If you want to 100% them, then yes, you have to. But there is no special reward for 100%-ing a tome aside from some nice particle effects, so inherently there's nothing forcing you to do anything.
Besides, playing both roles from time to time helps putting things in perspective and understand better why the other side is doing what they're doing. Tome challenges are a great way to add variety to your gameplay.I guess I misread it, lol.
If you miss the double negation in the first sentence it gives "I'm a survivor main, only reason I play survivor is the rewards and tomes" then the rest of the post seems like he's depressed. Guess I'll leave that here since a forum, but yeah, not my proudest moment
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EDIT: off-topic, I completely misread OP's post lol.
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Yes I think "sad" is the right word to describe the survivor situation.
I genuinely don't understand how people can play soloQ in its current state. Between slugging, teammates giving up at 5 gens, and the honestly disturbing amount of griefers on killer now (who will eg. watch your character bleed out for 4 minutes). The game has always been unfair. But now it's just savage. Even when you are not playing against an actual psychopath, it feels like you spend more time in loading screens and watching slugging/death animations of your character than actually playing it. So many times you are put in a losing situation within the first 30 sec of the match, and then you spend 10 minutes just waiting for your death, hoping for the next match to be better, but it won't be. Depressing.
I used to main only survivor around 2021. When the devs shifted towards 60% killrate, I started playing killer thinking they would eventually revert it. Since they didn't, I have almost never played survivor again, and I've become sort of a killer main now. I think the killer experience is a lot more fun than survivor, but you have to approach it with the right mindset. I don't play sweaty at all, try to 12-hooks when possible, and often let a survivor go when something funny happen, which is surprisingly common. Even with meme-y builds, I rarely lose, and the experience is generally chill (not to say it's always like that- more about it later), also survivors usually understand I've been playing nicely and don't trashtalk in endgame. I truly believe this was the dev vision for the 60% killrate.
Regularly, I play against survivor streamers, and I watch the VOD afterwards looking for funny clips. But then, I keep watching their stream, and I realize how miserable the rest of their matches actually are. They face comp killers every game, teammates giving up every game, killers griefing them. I've seen a small streamer who played in an adorable way (tried to gather items under the Christmas tree on Ormond) get forced by the killer to do all 5 gens alone while the killer was holding her hostage through a bot. I've seen Skermz get bled out on stream, at least ten times. That's 5000+ viewers watching their streamer do nothing for 4 full minutes while the killer watches them like a psychopath. Usually, the streamers can cover this and make it funny because of their personality, but you can tell how depressing it must be for someone who plays this game alone.
As I grow older, I realize time is very valuable, and you shouldn't spend it on a video game UNLESS it's for a very good one. SoloQ in DBD, is not just unfun, it is depressing: so you are basically wasting your time, to get depressed - totally backwards. This is even more backwards that there will be people giving questionable advice like "you need 2k hours to be a good player at this game" - dude no, the goal is to have fun now, not to sink your life in DBD to have a chance to have fun later, otherwise this is borderline addiction.
On the other hand there's something important to acknowledge. Playing killer for years made me realize the game can also be hard for killers, and you can actually be put in helpless situations on killer, too. The 4-man SWFs who send you to Azarov are not a myth, they DO exist, albeit rare: but the same way that as survivor, you face some comp-wannabes Nurses who want to go for 4ks every match, there will be players like this on the survivor side.
This is why "Us vs. Them" is usually counterproductive, as both sides can be 2 sides of the same coin, and you will miss half the story if you only play one side. For example, survivors get bled out for 4 minutes, so they come on the forum complaining about "slugging" - and rightfully so -, but most killer players do not bleed out survivors, so from their perspective "slugging" means occasionally leaving a survivor for 1 minute on the ground - and they argue against it, rightfully so. We have two sides disagreeing, each only sees their perspective, and they don't even realize that they argue about something different. Instead, to fix bleedouts, my suggestion would be to simply allow survivors to give up after spending a minute on the ground. I don't know if it will fix the bleedout issue entirely, but it's a simple solution that 90% players will agree on, survivors AND killers, much more productive.
As a whole though, these "helpless" situations, while they do exist on the killer side too, are incomparably more common on the survivor side, and specifically in soloQ. In particular, I suspect most griefers play on the killer side for simple practical reasons: because griefing on the survivor side would require 3 friends who are like them, and would annoy only 1 person, so it is literally 16x less efficient than doing it on the killer side.